Elite FCS Programs

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

What current FCS programs would you consider elite?

First define what you think ELITE is, then make a list of teams you think fit that category.

What makes a program elite?

Is it marketing?
Is it wins?
Is it tradition?
Is it money they make?
Is it National Championships?


I believe elite programs are ones that win back to back or multiple National Championships over a set period of years.

Currently the only elite program in the FCS is NDSU and its not even up for discussion.

Past elite programs are:
App St
Georgia Southern
Youngstown St

They backed it up multiple times and have storied programs some of which have taken it to the next level. Remember ELITE is elite, its not for everyone.


What do you guys say?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

If it isn't up for discussion then why is it up for discussion?

[IBleedYellow]

The fact that we can't actually vote for more than one is flawed.

Over the years there have been many programs that are elite, including but not limited to: Montana, App State, Georgia Southern, Delaware, Eastern Washington, and Marshall to name a few. Your list not having more programs, and not allowing extras to be selected kind of defeats the point of "Programs" in the title.

What makes a program elite?
Tradition of winning is a good one.
National Titles normally come hand in hand with winning (unless your Northern Iowa, sorry Panthers fans.)
I believe there are no FCS programs that actually MAKE money, there may be ones that balance the book every year, but making money like say...Texas, no.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

IMO Montana was never elite. They have had sustained success but never strung NCs together to make their mark. I am a Braves fan and can relate that they were never elite even with their run through the 90s. They were good but not elite.

Elite is not for everyone.

- - - Updated - - -


If it isn't up for discussion then why is it up for discussion?

is it

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

The fact that we can't actually vote for more than one is flawed.

Over the years there have been many programs that are elite, including but not limited to: Montana, App State, Georgia Southern, Delaware, Eastern Washington, and Marshall to name a few. Your list not having more programs, and not allowing extras to be selected kind of defeats the point of "Programs" in the title.

What makes a program elite?
Tradition of winning is a good one.
National Titles normally come hand in hand with winning (unless your Northern Iowa, sorry Panthers fans.)
I believe there are no FCS programs that actually MAKE money, there may be ones that balance the book every year, but making money like say...Texas, no.

You are right, it is flawed but I did type in 3 choices but it never got saved that way and now I cant change it. Maybe when Ursus gets done hacking on me he can fix that for his punching bag?

[BisonFan02]

Voted for NDSU just to bruise eGriz egos.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

This is a tough one but you can look at the other programs and wonder has any team brought more notoriety to FCS than NDSU right now? The other teams have had sparks of success but not like this.

[HailSzczur]

NDSU-yes

Villanova- We're Joe Flacco elite. Some good runs, some great players, a championship, etc.
Unconventional. At times over rated. At times under rated. Not bright, shiny, or fancy (in terms of fans or stadium), but still get the job done. Some people would adamantly argue for, others would laugh and argue against.

[IBleedYellow]

This is a tough one but you can look at the other programs and wonder has any team brought more notoriety to FCS than NDSU right now? The other teams have had sparks of success but not like this.

One can argue, does NDSU's success actually bring more notice to the FCS, or just NDSU itself?

Most times when you hear or see the FCS brought up in discussion, it's going to have NDSU related to it in someway I've noticed lately. Yeah Gameday going to Fargo was an "ode to the FCS" according the Gameday crew. What I saw was an "ode to North Dakota State" with a little bit of FCS facts spattered throughout.

EDIT: I'm not trying to make this sound like NDSU is larger than the FCS, but that NDSU's success is different than the success of the FCS.

[thebootfitter]

I usually think of "elite" as being the top 1%. Maybe 1-2%, depending on the population size. (With a big enough population, I'd consider only the top 1% of the top 1% to be elite. Like Top Gun.)

Given the pool of FCS teams is just over 100, that really only leaves room for one or two teams to be considered "elite" at any time by that definition. Right now, that would only include NDSU.

I wouldn't argue with your definition from a historical perspective, but I think there is room for a different level of elite within any season. I think it's pretty clear that NDSU has been operating on a different level from the rest of the field in recent years. But there are other teams that have also distinguished themselves from the rest of the field to a lesser degree.

Over the past few years, I'd put EWU in that category (as much as I hate to say it). In 2011 and 2012, Sam Houston would be there. Probably Georgia Southern in those two years as well. This year, Villanova and maybe even UNH might be there.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

One can argue, does NDSU's success actually bring more notice to the FCS, or just NDSU itself?

Most times when you hear or see the FCS brought up in discussion, it's going to have NDSU related to it in someway I've noticed lately. Yeah Gameday going to Fargo was an "ode to the FCS" according the Gameday crew. What I saw was an "ode to North Dakota State" with a little bit of FCS facts spattered throughout.

EDIT: I'm not trying to make this sound like NDSU is larger than the FCS, but that NDSU's success is different than the success of the FCS.

NDSU hasn't always been successful. They got a little love for beating Minnesota but nothing like beating K State. The last two seasons have been incredible but likely wouldn't have happened if they hadn't done that.

The cognitive dissonance everyone is having over NDSU is because of their relative tenure in FCS. Even when they were ranked #1 in the pre-playoff era, they would never have been considered elite. I do suspect they would have caused some disruptions in the App State run given what we know now of their ability.

[IBleedYellow]

NDSU hasn't always been successful. They got a little love for beating Minnesota but nothing like beating K State. The last two seasons have been incredible but likely wouldn't have happened if they hadn't done that.

The cognitive dissonance everyone is having over NDSU is because of their relative tenure in FCS. Even when they were ranked #1 in the pre-playoff era, they would never have been considered elite. I do suspect they would have caused some disruptions in the App State run given what we know now of their ability.

NDSU has been a successful program longer than I have been alive, minus 2 years in my lifetime. The country is just starting to catch up finally.

[Silenoz]

Voted for NDSU just to bruise eGriz egos.

Huh?



I mean, clearly this thread is just a thinly disguised Alpha attack against Griz... whatever.

[Grizalltheway]

NDSU has been a successful program longer than I have been alive, minus 2 years in my lifetime. The country is just starting to catch up finally.

Uhh, no, you finally started playing in a division that more than a handful of people pay attention to.

[DFW HOYA]

Elite programs should cover five areas:

1. Multiple national titles--and not from 1897.
2. Budgets in the top 20% of the subdivision.
2. Attendance in the top 20% of the subdivision.
4. Demonstrated consistent national ranking and post-season finishes.
5. Demonstrated development of NFL draft picks.

In I-A, the elite would be: USC, Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, LSU, Alabama, Florida, Florida State, Miami, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame (more on reputation than titles) and probably no more than one or two others.

In Div I basketball, it would be UCLA, Arizona, Kentucky, Indiana, Duke, North Carolina, and UConn.

[IBleedYellow]

Uhh, no, you finally started playing in a division that more than a handful of people pay attention to.

What's your point? Are you attempting to state that our dominance for almost 50 years isn't just that, dominance? Whatever level of play we have played at, we have succeeded.

[Grizalltheway]

What's your point? Are you attempting to state that our dominance for almost 50 years isn't just that, dominance? Whatever level of play we have played at, we have succeeded.

No, I'm saying that most people don't follow DII (or FCS, for that matter), so your dominance in those days went largely unnoticed outside of the upper Midwest.

[BisonFan02]

Huh?



I mean, clearly this thread is just a thinly disguised Alpha attack against Griz... whatever.

What prompted this discussion in the first place other than insecurities over on that board? I don't suppose Alpha didn't throw it on AGS because someone suggested just that to prove Montana was "elite"?

What's "elite" anyway....what are the parameters we are supposed to use?

[IBleedYellow]

No, I'm saying that most people don't follow DII (or FCS, for that matter), so your dominance in those days went largely unnoticed outside of the upper Midwest.

Agreed. Sadly NDSU was about 25 years to late for getting into the FCS.

[BisonFan02]

No, I'm saying that most people don't follow DII (or FCS, for that matter), so your dominance in those days went largely unnoticed outside of the upper Midwest.

Well, what about in the 60s when NDSU was beating up on Montana before it was in style? :D

[ysubigred]

I consider Elite having more than two NC's xrulesx

1. GSU 6 time NC Moved onto 1BCS

2. YSU 4 time NC MVFC

3. NDSU 3 time NC MVFC

4. APP State 3 time NC Moved onto 1BCS

Honorable mentions for #'s of near misses,,

Montana 2 time NC 5 runner ups
Marshall 2 time NC 4 runner ups

[NoDak 4 Ever]

NDSU has been a successful program longer than I have been alive, minus 2 years in my lifetime. The country is just starting to catch up finally.

Whoops, forgot to qualify. I meant within FCS.

[Bisonator]

I would have voted for NDSU and Montana but could only pick one. I don't know how anyone wouldn't put Montana in the "elite" category. To have been as successful as they have for as long as they have and played in 7 championship games, winning 2, that's "elite" IMO anyway!

[Nova09]

I voted other just because the poll is ridiculous that you can only choose one.

Anyway, I think there is some interesting nuance in the phrasing of "elite Program" (as opposed to team) and the setting of right now. A program must be judged over time, so an elite program must necessarily sustain success, and respond to down years by quickly becoming relevant again. But the emphasis on right now makes it clear OP does not want to talk about who the historically elite FCS programs have been (with good reason, we already know that and don't need a thread to glorify them). Se we kind of need to consider some of the past, so we are not just listing who is good right now, and also project into the future, who is poised for success.

With that in mind, I would say the 3 elite programs right now are NDSU, EWU, and Nova. A strong case could be made for SHSU, but even with their runs to Natl Championship games I never really thought of them as an "elite program." Just my own opinion. A case could be made for the Griz as well, but I'm down on them right now enough that I can't bring myself to call them one of the current elites.

[Sader87]

I think the term "elite" used in connection to FCS football is a bit oxymoronic, but that's just me.

NDSU is obviously the gold standard of FCS football right now. I would say this though, they joined the FCS-level at a time when the level had been watered down from were it once was with the defections of many FCS powers from the 80s, 90s and 00s.

[Bisonator]

Well, what about in the 60s when NDSU was beating up on Montana before it was in style? :D

It is funny how Griz fans seem to like to forget those days......xlolx

[BisonFan02]

It is funny how Griz fans seem to like to forget those days......xlolx

Damn College Divi.....I mean DII football :D

[Grizalltheway]

It is funny how Griz fans seem to like to forget those days......xlolx


Forget? I wasn't even a twinkle in my daddy's eye at that point.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You are right, it is flawed but I did type in 3 choices but it never got saved that way and now I cant change it. Maybe when Ursus gets done hacking on me he can fix that for his punching bag?

can i

You used "is it" incorrectly in your previous attempt did i.

[BisonFan02]

Forget? I wasn't even a twinkle in my daddy's eye at that point.

Never Forget.... xlolx

[clawman]

Flawed poll!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Trying to fix mistakes.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I voted other just because the poll is ridiculous that you can only choose one.

Anyway, I think there is some interesting nuance in the phrasing of "elite Program" (as opposed to team) and the setting of right now. A program must be judged over time, so an elite program must necessarily sustain success, and respond to down years by quickly becoming relevant again. But the emphasis on right now makes it clear OP does not want to talk about who the historically elite FCS programs have been (with good reason, we already know that and don't need a thread to glorify them). Se we kind of need to consider some of the past, so we are not just listing who is good right now, and also project into the future, who is poised for success.

With that in mind, I would say the 3 elite programs right now are NDSU, EWU, and Nova. A strong case could be made for SHSU, but even with their runs to Natl Championship games I never really thought of them as an "elite program." Just my own opinion. A case could be made for the Griz as well, but I'm down on them right now enough that I can't bring myself to call them one of the current elites.

Villanova? Why? How would they be more elite than any other one shot champion?

[BisonFan02]

Can we please define "Elite" too? I voted for NDSU, Montana, YSU, and "other" due to championships and loosely judged program support.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

still only picked one.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Start over with your votes. The old ones were wiped.

[BisonFan02]

Throw UNI and UNH up there for "Elite" but never win anything.

[Nova09]

Villanova? Why? How would they be more elite than any other one shot champion?

Well that goes to my point about OP obviously looking for "current"

In the past 5 years the other 2 who have won a NC are listed by my ranking as more elite than Nova. If you want to go back further Richmond I don't see as currently elite, though I guess an argument could be made that they are as much as Nova. Then you get to 3 years of App, who aren't currently FCS.

Nova might only have the one championship, but we've had championship contenders now, late 00s, early 00s, late 90s, early 90s. Not many others have that going. Also, don't think you're the only ones lamenting EWU in 10 playoffs. If you could have just held them off, we'd be the last team to beat you in the playoffs :D

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Throw UNI and UNH up there for "Elite" but never win anything.

Not a chance.

I think bootymcfitter put up a pretty good definition of elite on about pg. 2. Go read it, massage it slightly to your liking, and then choose.

[Bisonator]

Forget? I wasn't even a twinkle in my daddy's eye at that point.

Well **** if that's the criteria......xlolx

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Well that goes to my point about OP obviously looking for "current"

In the past 5 years the other 2 who have won a NC are listed by my ranking as more elite than Nova. If you want to go back further Richmond I don't see as currently elite, though I guess an argument could be made that they are as much as Nova. Then you get to 3 years of App, who aren't currently FCS.

Nova might only have the one championship, but we've had championship contenders now, late 00s, early 00s, late 90s, early 90s. Not many others have that going. Also, don't think you're the only ones lamenting EWU in 10 playoffs. If you could have just held them off, we'd be the last team to beat you in the playoffs :D

Your resume is almost identical to Delaware, why are they not elite?

You see what happens when you water down the definition.

[BisonFan02]

Not a chance.

I think bootymcfitter put up a pretty good definition of elite on about pg. 2. Go read it, massage it slightly to your liking, and then choose.

Just a poke....already made my vote based on what I would consider an "elite" program.

[Nova09]

Your resume is almost identical to Delaware, why are they not elite?

You see what happens when you water down the definition.

Timing. I don't know how many times I can tell you that I am focusing on the intent of the OP to look at the here and now.

4 years ago, yeah I would have had Delaware as one of the current elite programs. They had a rich history, were not as far removed from their championship, and were gearing up for a championship run. But it's not 4 years ago, and today Nova is where they were then.

[Lehigh'98]

E Letehigh!!

this poll is silly. Obviously taking the last few yrs, NDSU is the only possible option. The only question left is, are they the best FCS program ever? If they win it this year, that will put an end to that discussion. I still think programs like Nova, EWU, Montana, YSU can or could have been considered elite. Delaware was as well IMO. Right now though, FCS is a one trick pony until someone knocks off the Bison.

[thebootfitter]

I do suspect they would have caused some disruptions in the App State run given what we know now of their ability.
Of course, even suggesting that possibility at the time was considered sacrilegious. :p

Much like wanting to see a match up of NDSU vs Villanova or EWU or SELA these days, I would have loved to see the NDSU vs App State match up in 2006 & 2007.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Timing. I don't know how many times I can tell you that I am focusing on the intent of the OP to look at the here and now.

4 years ago, yeah I would have had Delaware as one of the current elite programs. They had a rich history, were not as far removed from their championship, and were gearing up for a championship run. But it's not 4 years ago, and today Nova is where they were then.

You are focusing solely on this year. Forget that 3 years ago you had a 2 win season and last year a 6 win season. None of that screams elite to me.

[Pard4Life]

Um, Lehigh? Duh... xdrunkyx

[MTfan4life]

E Letehigh!!

this poll is silly. Obviously taking the last few yrs, NDSU is the only possible option. The only question left is, are they the best FCS program ever? If they win it this year, that will put an end to that discussion. I still think programs like Nova, EWU, Montana, YSU can or could have been considered elite. Delaware was as well IMO. Right now though, FCS is a one trick pony until someone knocks off the Bison.

No. Now that they are gone, I can freely say this without boosting the ego of an entire fanbase, but the best FCS program ever to me is Georgia Southern. In 1981, they didn't even have a football program. Just twenty years later, they had won 6 National Championships. Imagine Mercer winning six titles and being runner up two other times by 2033. It just seems incredibly implausible, however that's what they did.

[Nova09]

You are focusing solely on this year. Forget that 3 years ago you had a 2 win season and last year a 6 win season. None of that screams elite to me.

And in 09 you won 3 games, and in 08 you won 6 games. Elite programs still have their struggles. But they learn from them and right the ship. Nova responded to 2 win season with a playoff year; is responding to 6 win season with a very strong showing.

[FargoBison]

I guess if you want to talk about elite I would have to say NDSU, Montana, EWU and maybe Nova.

YSU, UNI, UNH and a few others are in a rung below for various reasons.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

And in 09 you won 3 games, and in 08 you won 6 games. Elite programs still have their struggles. But they learn from them and right the ship. Nova responded to 2 win season with a playoff year; is responding to 6 win season with a very strong showing.

Kind of moving the goalposts, aren't ya?

You can't possibly compare Villanova to NDSU. NDSU has has 3 losing seasons in the last 50 years. Since their last losing season they are 59-6 including a record 31 games and counting in a row.

I'm saying that Villanova is an ok team that has seen some success, much like Delaware. You can't poo poo Delaware and consider Villanova an elite team.

Montana is a far superior program to Villanova.

[Nova09]

Kind of moving the goalposts, aren't ya?

You can't possibly compare Villanova to NDSU. NDSU has has 3 losing seasons in the last 50 years. Since their last losing season they are 59-6 including a record 31 games and counting in a row.

I'm saying that Villanova is an ok team that has seen some success, much like Delaware. You can't poo poo Delaware and consider Villanova an elite team.

Montana is a far superior program to Villanova.

I never poo pood Delaware. You want to include them go ahead and include them. I said it's just a matter of timing, not either program being clearly ahead of the other overall. I would even add to that the fact that Delaware has a new coach and new administration which could potentially mean years like this are the "new normal" for them. Not making that prediction just gonna wait and see before I call them elite again.

Montana is definitely an interesting one. If the question was simply elite programs of the FCS era, I would have Montana ahead of Nova. Just my opinion that as of now Nova is better positioned.

[BisonFan02]

I guess if you want to talk about elite I would have to say NDSU, Montana, EWU and maybe Nova.

YSU, UNI, UNH and a few others are in a rung below for various reasons.

Bump YSU up and put EWU and Nova on the same rung as UNI and UNH....then we agree.

[Sader87]

Once again, not taking anything away from what NDSU has done ovah the last 5 or so years at the FCS-level BUT you have to wondah if they would be so elite at the FCS-level if Boise St, Nevada-Reno, most of Conference USA, nearly all of the Sun Belt, UConn, UMass, Akron, South Florida et. al. were still playing at the FCS level.

Are the Bizon "elite" right now in FCS football? Absolutely...but one can't argue that they joined this level at a most opportune time to dominate as they have done so lately.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Bump YSU up and put EWU and Nova on the same rung as UNI and UNH....then we agree.

That sounds about right.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Once again, not taking anything away from what NDSU has done ovah the last 5 or so years at the FCS-level BUT you have to wondah if they would be so elite at the FCS-level if Boise St, Nevada-Reno, most of Conference USA, nearly all of the Sun Belt, UConn, UMass, Akron, South Florida et. al. were still playing at the FCS level.

Are the Bizon "elite" right now in FCS football? Absolutely...but can't argue that they joined this level at a most opportune time to dominate as they have done lately.

They were kicking ass in the "college division" against current and past FCS teams but stayed in DII and kicked ass against other current and former FCS teams then went to FCS and kicked ass on current and former FCS teams.

The answer to your question is.....probably.

[FargoBison]

Bump YSU up and put EWU and Nova on the same rung as UNI and UNH....then we agree.

I can't bump YSU, they can no longer live on past titles with me. Two trips the playoffs since the year 2000 is just not getting it done.

[IBleedYellow]

Once again, not taking anything away from what NDSU has done ovah the last 5 or so years at the FCS-level BUT you have to wondah if they would be so elite at the FCS-level if Boise St, Nevada-Reno, most of Conference USA, nearly all of the Sun Belt, UConn, UMass, Akron, South Florida et. al. were still playing at the FCS level.

Are the Bizon "elite" right now in FCS football? Absolutely...but one can't argue that they joined this level at a most opportune time to dominate as they have done so lately.
Most likely. In College division NDSU was still whipping fannies.

Sent from a TI-83+ Calculator

[Bisonator]

Once again, not taking anything away from what NDSU has done ovah the last 5 or so years at the FCS-level BUT you have to wondah if they would be so elite at the FCS-level if Boise St, Nevada-Reno, most of Conference USA, nearly all of the Sun Belt, UConn, UMass, Akron, South Florida et. al. were still playing at the FCS level.

Are the Bizon "elite" right now in FCS football? Absolutely...but one can't argue that they joined this level at a most opportune time to dominate as they have done so lately.

I'd put NDSU up against any of those. How many of those won it all at this level or any level for that matter? People seem to forget that before 1978 we were all in the same division and did quite well for ourselves.

[FargoBison]

Once again, not taking anything away from what NDSU has done ovah the last 5 or so years at the FCS-level BUT you have to wondah if they would be so elite at the FCS-level if Boise St, Nevada-Reno, most of Conference USA, nearly all of the Sun Belt, UConn, UMass, Akron, South Florida et. al. were still playing at the FCS level.

Are the Bizon "elite" right now in FCS football? Absolutely...but one can't argue that they joined this level at a most opportune time to dominate as they have done so lately.

I don't agree at all with this. the FCS in 2011 and 2012 was deep. Some outstanding teams.

With GSU, ODU and App State now gone though, things have taken a step back.

[Sader87]

I'm sure NDSU would still be very good if many of those old FCS powers were still in the FCS but there would be more competition for them no doubt.

I'm trolling here a bit I know but this thread, and many others like them that have been posted in the last couple of years, smack of: "look how good/dominant we are." Congratulations, you're very good.....we know.

All I'm saying is that the FCS-level isn't as deep at the top end now as it was in the 80s and 90s.

[Silenoz]

What prompted this discussion in the first place other than insecurities over on that board? I don't suppose Alpha didn't throw it on AGS because someone suggested just that to prove Montana was "elite"?

What's "elite" anyway....what are the parameters we are supposed to use?

Well you must keep better tabs on eGriz than I do, but now that I see that thread:

1) It was started by a Cat troll
2) I can only assume it's 5 pages of PR, Cat trolls, EWU trolls, and the usual assortment calling each other names

[IBleedYellow]

I'm sure NDSU would still be very good if many of those old FCS powers were still in the FCS but there would be more competition for them no doubt.

I'm trolling here a bit I know but this thread, and many others like them that have been posted in the last couple of years, smack of: "look how good/dominate we are." Congratulations, you're very good.....we know.

All I'm saying is that the FCS-level isn't as deep at the top end now as it was in the 80s and 90s.
The last few threads like this haven't even been started by NDSU related posters.

Sent from a TI-83+ Calculator

[BisonTru]

FWIW,

Win-Loss since '04.

NDSU: 103-29 .780
Villanova: 79-49 .617
SHSU: 79-50 .612
Montana: 109-31 .779
YSU: 69-53 .566

[bluehenbillk]

NDSU is the only one I'd put there. Montana is a solid program recently but nothing towards elite. YSU not since the cheater days...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Villanova is absolutely elite imo. They have one of the best coaches in FCS history, have a title, have multiple Payton winners, have been ranked #1 in multiple decades, numerous FBS wins, name recognition that most in FCS can't touch etc....

As a Temple guy it pains me to praise VU but their accomplishments speak for themselves....

[Bisonator]

Villanova is absolutely elite imo. They have one of the best coaches in FCS history, have a title, have multiple Payton winners, have been ranked #1 in multiple decades, numerous FBS wins, name recognition that most in FCS can't touch etc....

As a Temple guy it pains me to praise VU but their accomplishments speak for themselves....

This does not seem "elite" to me.



Season
Head Coach
Overall Record
Conf. Record
Postseason
TSN ranking


1985
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
5-0
-
-


1986
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
8-1
-
-


1987
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
6-4
-
-


1988
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
5-5-1
4-4




1989
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
8-4
6-2*
NCAA FCS playoffs



1990
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
6-5
5-3




1991
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
10-2
7-1*
NCAA FCS payoffs



1992
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
9-3
6-2
NCAA FCS playoffs



1993
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
3-8
1-7




1994
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
5-6
2-6




1995
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
3-8
2-6




1996
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
8-4
6-2
NCAA FCS playoffs
#12


1997
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
12-1
8-0*
NCAA FCS Quarterfinals
#5


1998
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
6-5
4-4




1999
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
7-4
6-2




2000
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
5-6
3-5




2001
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
8-3
7-2*

#20


2002
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
11-4
6-3
NCAA FCS Semifinals
#4


2003
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
7-4
5-4

#25


2004
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
6-5
3-5




2005
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
4-6
2-6




2006
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
6-5
5-3




2007
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
7-4
5-3




2008
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
10-3
7-1
NCAA FCS Quarterfinals
#6


2009
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
14-1
7-1*
NCAA FCS Champions
#1


2010
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
9-5
5-3
NCAA FCS Semifinals
#3


2011
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
2-9
1-7




2012
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
8-4
6-2*
NCAA FCS Playoffs
#15


2013
Andy Talley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Talley)
6-5
5-3




1985 - 2013 VILLANOVA RECORD: 204-126-1

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Bisonator...

Then Alabama, Notre Dame, Auburn, Michigan, Florida, USC etc are not elite based on W/L. That is a very good quarter plus century of football. Every "elite" program has suffered a bad year here and there. What separates them from other's is their ability to bounce back. Villanova has played in a "elite" conference and has be an anchor in it.

You have to factor in coaches and players too. Villanova had a fantastic team's in '91 and '97. This was when Marshall, Montana and YSU were beasts. Villanova was right there....

[Bisonator]

Bisonator...

Then Alabama, Notre Dame, Auburn, Michigan, Florida, USC etc are not elite based on W/L. That is a very good quarter plus century of football. Every "elite" program has suffered a bad year here and there. What separates them from other's is their ability to bounce back. Villanova has played in a "elite" conference and has be an anchor in it.

You have to factor in coaches and players too. Villanova had a fantastic team's in '91 and '97. This was when Marshall, Montana and YSU were beasts. Villanova was right there....

Sorry but multiple 7-4, 6-5 seasons in a row with a few great years thrown in now and then does not mean elite to me.

[thebootfitter]

Sorry but multiple 7-4, 6-5 seasons in a row with a few great years thrown in now and then does not mean elite to me.
Yeah, I tend to agree. A bad year here or there, sure. There will always be some down years, but an elite team should generally be winning 70-80% of the time, in my opinion. Some years will be better of course too.

And that winning should generally be done against respectable competition.

Think of Nebraska in its prime. Oklahoma. Alabama. Even the great teams have down years, and I wouldn't call all of the historically great teams elite as of today. But during their elite runs... What they accomplished was pretty impressive.

[Mattymc727]

Can we be done with the NDSU circle jerks?

[thebootfitter]

Can we be done with the NDSU circle jerks?
Probably not until they start losing.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Can we be done with the NDSU circle jerks?

Go find a thread talking about above average FCS programs and have your own circle jerk.

[Silenoz]

Go find a thread talking about above average FCS programs and have your own circle jerk.
Impossible. NDSU fans would turn that into an NDSU thread before the end of the first page

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Impossible. NDSU fans would turn that into an NDSU thread before the end of the first page

No, we'd leave you guys alone. Although above average might be a stretch for MSU. You'd have to make a pretty convincing argument to be included.

[Trumpster]

Impossible. NDSU fans would turn that into an NDSU thread before the end of the first page

There's a reason I lurk on here but don't really post. I'd just be piling on if I posted anything NDSU. Maybe after our minimum8peat, who knows.

[Grizalltheway]

No, we'd leave you guys alone. Although above average might be a stretch for MSU. You'd have to make a pretty convincing argument to be included.

Landers is an MSU fan now? You might want to clear Jensen's jizz out of your eyes and look at his avatar.

[Silenoz]

This is tough. Do I respond to that, or try to stimulate more MSU smack since my avatar and sig could give the impression that I'm a Cat fan.



uh, what I meant to say is... MSU is so much better academically then you sad Canadians. We have a sweet engineering school and skiing teams and rodeo... stuff. You should just accept our superiority to you as human beings. Also, cowboy boots and line dancing.


Ahhh, the "Cat's" out of the bag now I guess

[bisonboone11]

Once again, not taking anything away from what NDSU has done ovah the last 5 or so years at the FCS-level BUT you have to wondah if they would be so elite at the FCS-level if Boise St, Nevada-Reno, most of Conference USA, nearly all of the Sun Belt, UConn, UMass, Akron, South Florida et. al. were still playing at the FCS level.

Are the Bizon "elite" right now in FCS football? Absolutely...but one can't argue that they joined this level at a most opportune time to dominate as they have done so lately.
I understand your point, but Georgia Southern and Youngstown seemed to do alright. NDSU had to go through Georgia Southern 2 of the last 3 years on their way to the championship, and they play in the same conference as Youngstown. Those are the only 2 schools with more FCS national championships than NDSU.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

This is tough. Do I respond to that, or try to stimulate more MSU smack since my avatar and sig could give the impression that I'm a Cat fan.



uh, what I meant to say is... MSU is so much better academically then you sad Canadians. We have a sweet engineering school and skiing teams and rodeo... stuff. You should just accept our superiority to you as human beings. Also, cowboy boots and line dancing.


Ahhh, the "Cat's" out of the bag now I guess

Nobody really understands any of your **** so who cares? You all look alike to me anyway.

Fire Father Time, get your **** right and you can come back into the elite discussion.

[Silenoz]

xrolleyesx

You try to make a joke from a case of mistaken identity, but then it doesn't work because the other party doesn't have the capacity to not be a tool for one post.

Then again I guess you never have to worry that anyone would ever "think you all look alike", because there is no mistaking the stay-at-home douche who spends 24/7 on this site. Moderation dude.

[Sader87]

NDSU has a problem, admittedly a problem every other FCS school would love to have, but a problem nonetheless.

Where do they go from here??? It seems that they are stuck at the FCS-level for the time being. They really have no other program at their level to compete against year to year.

At some point, and it may be happening already, fans and students will staht asking: "Is that all there is???"

[NoDak 4 Ever]

xrolleyesx

You try to make a joke from a case of mistaken identity, but then it doesn't work because the other party doesn't have the capacity to not be a tool for one post.

Then again I guess you never have to worry that anyone would ever "think you all look alike", because there is no mistaking the stay-at-home douche who spends 24/7 on this site. Moderation dude.

I mean Montanans. You're all so jealous of NDSU because you are unable to beat them that you lash out at us fans on the board. Don't worry bro, I got paid very well to be on this board today.

- - - Updated - - -


NDSU has a problem, admittedly a problem every other FCS school would love to have, but a problem nonetheless.

Where do they go from here??? It seems that they are stuck at the FCS-level for the time being. They really have no other program at their level to compete against year to year.

At some point, and it may be happening already, fans and students will staht asking: "Is that all there is???"

Don't you worry about us, we'll be just fine.

[Silenoz]

Ah, spoken just like lakes' himself. When in doubt, everyone else is jelly

[SIUSalukiFan]

E Letehigh!!

this poll is silly. Obviously taking the last few yrs, NDSU is the only possible option. The only question left is, are they the best FCS program ever? If they win it this year, that will put an end to that discussion. I still think programs like Nova, EWU, Montana, YSU can or could have been considered elite. Delaware was as well IMO. Right now though, FCS is a one trick pony until someone knocks off the Bison.

This poll is past silly. It's flat-out ridiculous. I'm not sure how elite equates to national champion.

IMO, any FCS program that's had a sustained run of playoff berths, say, more than 4-5 years, was an elite program during that span.

I don't care if New Hampshire never wins a national championship ... 11 or 12 straight playoff bids is elite. If the string goes out to 20 I'll say the same thing.

I just wish something good would happen on the field for North Dakota State fans so they wouldn't need daily validation. xlolx

[dwtime]

Can we be done with the NDSU circle jerks?

+1

The thread 'Elite FCS Program' certainly brings out the board "elitists".

[Red & Black]

FWIW,

Win-Loss since '04.

NDSU: 103-29 .780
Villanova: 79-49 .617
SHSU: 79-50 .612
Montana: 109-31 .779
YSU: 69-53 .566

Eastern Washington: 91-44 (.67), but I guess we didn't make the cut for the poll. :D

Anyway, I think there's a distinction between "Historically Elite", and "currently elite" when you look at this.

Historically: GA Southern, YSU, Montana, maybe UD
Recently (maybe within the last 10 years): NDSU, Montana

You could make a case for EWU, SHSU, Nova, UD, UNH etc. based off of playoff appearances or simply deep runs during that time, although I would not put UNH or Sam on the same Tier as Nova or EWU, simply because they haven't won a chipper, and are not in "the club".

[Red & Black]

Ah, spoken just like lakes' himself. When in doubt, everyone else is jelly

NoDak is Lakes? Makes sense. xrotatehx

[Grizalltheway]

FWIW,

Win-Loss since '04.

NDSU: 103-29 .780
Villanova: 79-49 .617
SHSU: 79-50 .612
Montana: 109-31 .779
YSU: 69-53 .566

Also FWIW, Montana has more wins than any other D-I program since 2000. But I probably shouldn't bring that up, because we don't have enough of DEM RINGZ BABY.

[KUlawJack]

Elite programs should cover five areas:

1. Multiple national titles--and not from 1897.
2. Budgets in the top 20% of the subdivision.
2. Attendance in the top 20% of the subdivision.
4. Demonstrated consistent national ranking and post-season finishes.
5. Demonstrated development of NFL draft picks.

In I-A, the elite would be: USC, Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, LSU, Alabama, Florida, Florida State, Miami, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame (more on reputation than titles) and probably no more than one or two others.

In Div I basketball, it would be UCLA, Arizona, Kentucky, Indiana, Duke, North Carolina, and UConn.

In D I basketball, you're missing the second all time winningest program that also happens to have 5 NCs, 55 or so conference titles including 10 in a row currently, with a host of NBA players, current and former.

[Professor Chaos]

NDSU has a problem, admittedly a problem every other FCS school would love to have, but a problem nonetheless.

Where do they go from here??? It seems that they are stuck at the FCS-level for the time being. They really have no other program at their level to compete against year to year.

At some point, and it may be happening already, fans and students will staht asking: "Is that all there is???"
It was happening last year already with some amongst our fan base. Personally, I'm ok with where the Bison are at because I'm assuming there will be an eventual return to the pack and with the uncertainty about where the P5 are going I think NDSU needs to adopt the "wait and see" approach because I have a feeling that the G5 are going to need a lot of teams (or conferences) to bolster their ranks if/when the P5 leaves them out to dry.

[Bison56]

19905

[ursus arctos horribilis]

NDSU has a problem, admittedly a problem every other FCS school would love to have, but a problem nonetheless.

Where do they go from here??? It seems that they are stuck at the FCS-level for the time being. They really have no other program at their level to compete against year to year.

At some point, and it may be happening already, fans and students will staht asking: "Is that all there is???"
I've seen you say this over the last couple years quite a bit. I don't know what you are driving at all the time. Just personally I never wanted the Griz to go anywhere considering the current landscape I'd rather us be here than anywhere else. Maybe the same thought goes on one state over?

Is this all there is? Jeezus what more do you need? What do you want HC to be? There ain't a thing wrong with this level and I prefer it to the next anyway and getting there and then saying "****, this is all there is and it ain't greener on this side".

[Bisonoline]

NDSU has a problem, admittedly a problem every other FCS school would love to have, but a problem nonetheless.

Where do they go from here??? It seems that they are stuck at the FCS-level for the time being. They really have no other program at their level to compete against year to year.

At some point, and it may be happening already, fans and students will staht asking: "Is that all there is???"

History has shown you dont stay on top forever. Plus you seem to not know where were before the the last 3 years.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

This poll is past silly. It's flat-out ridiculous. I'm not sure how elite equates to national champion.

IMO, any FCS program that's had a sustained run of playoff berths, say, more than 4-5 years, was an elite program during that span.

I don't care if New Hampshire never wins a national championship ... 11 or 12 straight playoff bids is elite. If the string goes out to 20 I'll say the same thing.

I just wish something good would happen on the field for North Dakota State fans so they wouldn't need daily validation. xlolx

Way to lower the bar! Want a participation ribbon?


Elite isnt for everyone, its elite.....like a few not many, you have to raise the bar to be elite. Playoff runs are NOT a qualifier to be an elite program.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Way to lower the bar! Want a participation ribbon?


Elite isnt for everyone, its elite.....like a few not many, you have to raise the bar to be elite. Playoff runs are NOT a qualifier to be an elite program.

Especially now that they let the likes of Butler in.

[thebootfitter]

Way to lower the bar! Want a participation ribbon?

Elite isnt for everyone, its elite.....like a few not many, you have to raise the bar to be elite. Playoff runs are NOT a qualifier to be an elite program.
Ha ha! I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I'm not a fan of his opinion on this topic either.

Making playoff runs for several seasons means you are a consistently very good team. Not sure it means elite.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Ha ha! I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I'm not a fan of his opinion on this topic either.

Making playoff runs for several seasons means you are a consistently very good team. Not sure it means elite.

It doesn't.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Ha ha! I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I'm not a fan of his opinion on this topic either.

Making playoff runs for several seasons means you are a consistently very good team. Not sure it means elite.

Hard to argue with this.

[SIUSalukiFan]

Way to lower the bar! Want a participation ribbon?


Elite isnt for everyone, its elite.....like a few not many, you have to raise the bar to be elite. Playoff runs are NOT a qualifier to be an elite program.

Lowering the bar? New Hampshire making the playoffs in 12 straight years is lowering the bar? Montana making the playoffs for 17 straight years is lowering the bar? I'll wager $100 right now NDSU won't match New Hampshire's current streak (easy to do, I know, since many of us won't be around here in eight years :)).

Enjoy the run, NDSU fans. It will end. FCS history shows it will.

You ARE elite ... at the moment.

[Sader87]

I've seen you say this over the last couple years quite a bit. I don't know what you are driving at all the time. Just personally I never wanted the Griz to go anywhere considering the current landscape I'd rather us be here than anywhere else. Maybe the same thought goes on one state over?

Is this all there is? Jeezus what more do you need? What do you want HC to be? There ain't a thing wrong with this level and I prefer it to the next anyway and getting there and then saying "****, this is all there is and it ain't greener on this side".

Point being. NDSU has pretty much maxed out what they can accomplish at the FCS-level....it will nevah get any bettah than it is right now.

I think FCS is a fabulous level of football....still D1 football but without all the foolishness (academic fraud, hypocrisy etc) that you see at the FBS-level.

I just think NDSU is sort of caught (due to geography, institutional-size) in between wanting to be a good FCS team and having an FBS-level team both on the field and in their support....Montana is probably in this category as well.

Not a bad place to be obviously....but very much an outlier in what the FCS-level is around the country in 2014.

[thebootfitter]

Lowering the bar? New Hampshire making the playoffs in 12 straight years is lowering the bar? Montana making the playoffs for 17 straight years is lowering the bar?
Yes, it is lowering the bar. That means they have been consistently good. That's it. Not necessarily elite.

Now, throw in a championship game every few years, and win a few of those over that span. THAT, my friend, would fit most people's definition of elite.


I'll wager $100 right now NDSU won't match New Hampshire's current streak (easy to do, I know, since many of us won't be around here in eight years :)).
I'd probably take that bet if there were a way to monitor it. It's not such a long shot, though the college football landscape may change significantly before they have a chance to match it.


Enjoy the run, NDSU fans. It will end. FCS history shows it will.

You ARE elite ... at the moment.
I don't think anyone expects the unbeaten streak to last forever. I don't think anyone expects the consecutive national championships to last forever. Of course those will end. But NDSU as a program has been elite for quite awhile. Most people who know anything about the program expect it to remain elite for many years to come.

Sure, there may be a few years here and there with losing records. (The Bison have experienced something like 2 of those out of the last 50.) But there will also continue to be a lot of 8, 9, and 10+ win seasons with playoff runs. Even after this current incredible streak ends, the Bison will very likely contend for and win more national championships. Bison history shows it will.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Point being. NDSU has pretty much maxed out what they can accomplish at the FCS-level....it will nevah get any bettah than it is right now.

I think FCS is a fabulous level of football....still D1 football but without all the foolishness (academic fraud, hypocrisy etc) that you see at the FBS-level.

I just think NDSU is sort of caught (due to geography, institutional-size) in between wanting to be a good FCS team and having an FBS-level team both on the field and in their support....Montana is probably in this category as well.

Not a bad place to be obviously....but very much an outlier in what the FCS-level is around the country in 2014.

Not trying to be a dick so hope it doesn't come off like that but the great thing about being an outlier is not giving a damn what others find or think might be valuable to us.

There is much more for NDSU to do. The new fight starts again every game, every season, and this level ends with playoffs where you get to actually go see how you fare against your contemporaries.

Plus, they've got 3 NC's. That's tied for third at this level and second in their own conference so you really think there is no more else to be done?

Just talking from the Montana perspective. I'd never get tired of competing for the top dog award here so I'd always think there was much more to be done.

[Sader87]

No offense taken, I just think both NDSU and Montana are sort of in a tough spot....support and following that far exceeds 99% of the FCS programs as they exist now but still too small to be in a solid FBS conference (B1G, Big 12 etc)....sort of a nevah, nevah land between the FCS and FBS as it exists in 2014.

[SIUSalukiFan]

Yes, it is lowering the bar. That means they have been consistently good. That's it. Not necessarily elite.

Now, throw in a championship game every few years, and win a few of those over that span. THAT, my friend, would fit most people's definition of elite.

I used to have the NCAA page saved but I can't find it right now ... do you know how many different FCS programs in playoff history have had streaks of five straight playoff bids? Not very many. I'm betting it's less than 10. That is also elite. And, the list isn't comprised of teams from ****ty conferences so there are no flukes.



I'd probably take that bet if there were a way to monitor it. It's not such a long shot, though the college football landscape may change significantly before they have a chance to match it.

You like to gamble, eh? Only 2-3 teams in history have accomplished what I'm suggesting but you'd take a bet that NDSU will make the playoffs every year in the next eight years? I love the optimism but ...



I don't think anyone expects the unbeaten streak to last forever. I don't think anyone expects the consecutive national championships to last forever. Of course those will end. But NDSU as a program has been elite for quite awhile. Most people who know anything about the program expect it to remain elite for many years to come.

Sure, there may be a few years here and there with losing records. (The Bison have experienced something like 2 of those out of the last 50.) But there will also continue to be a lot of 8, 9, and 10+ win seasons with playoff runs. Even after this current incredible streak ends, the Bison will very likely contend for and win more national championships. Bison history shows it will.

Now you are making my argument. Elite has been defined in this discussion as winning national title but now you've been elite for 48 of the last 50 years? Do you have 48 national titles in the trophy case. Nope. xlolx

Listen, part of me is just yanking Bison chain here. I respect the hell out of you guys. I'm glad you're in the MVFC. But, this is a ridiculous argument, and I'm not sure why another thread was started to praise North Dakota State football.

You guys are elite. We get it.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

No offense taken, I just think both NDSU and Montana are sort of in a tough spot....support and following that far exceeds 99% of the FCS programs as they exist now but still too small to be in a solid FBS conference (B1G, Big 12 etc)....sort of a nevah, nevah land between the FCS and FBS as it exists in 2014.

Yup, and being happy in that spot makes it just perfect to me.xthumbsupx

[SIUSalukiFan]

No offense taken, I just think both NDSU and Montana are sort of in a tough spot....support and following that far exceeds 99% of the FCS programs as they exist now but still too small to be in a solid FBS conference (B1G, Big 12 etc)....sort of a nevah, nevah land between the FCS and FBS as it exists in 2014.

I'm being dead serious here - I'm not sure why North Dakota State isn't calling the Mountain West Conference every day of the week and Sundays asking for an invitation, and the Mountain West would be crazy not to listen.

[thebootfitter]

Now you are making my argument. Elite has been defined in this discussion as winning national title but now you've been elite for 48 of the last 50 years? Do you have 48 national titles in the trophy case. Nope.
Definitely not making your argument. Quite the contrary. 48 of 50 years with a winning record does not an elite program make any more than does an extended playoff streak with no titles to show.

However, as I said above, throw in a few championship games and bring home some hardware every so often, and the conversation can begin.

The Bison have 11 national championships since the 60s at whatever level they played during that time. That is something like an average of a championship every five years. (Even though they came in spurts in the 60s, 80s, and now.) How many programs can match that level of elite?

[dudeitsaid]

It's interesting to me that most of the people arguing the distinctions of what "elite" means, and who the "elite" are, are those fans whose teams are at the top of the heap right now, or in the recent past. It seems to me, when I often hear the "elite" spoken of, they are given that distinction by those who are looking up at what they have.

There have obviously been many varied levels of success throughout FCS history. But I would guess their are about ten to fifteen, or even twenty teams that the majority of the FCS teams would consider elite. I know I have heard that term used by various coaches and media to refer to EWU, UM, UNI, and obviously NDSU, to name a few.

Maybe we each have our own definition. I think EWU is one of the elite teams of the 21st century, and the vast majority of FCS teams have not been able to duplicate their success. But in regards to their entire FCS history, I would consider our success still somewhat of a recent phenomenon. I think some of the elite have moved on. NDSU with it's short history has established itself as elite, and one of the greatest FCS teams in history. Few teams have the long and consistent level of success of UM. But there are other teams that almost are always part of the conversation, like UNH, Nova, McNeese, UD, SIU, UNI, Richmond, etc, who though they may miss a beat here and there, somehow always seem to get their teams back to a point of relevance and make some noise in the playoff picture. For me, when I think of elite, I think of teams like that. But, then again, that's just my own subjective take.

[SIUSalukiFan]

Definitely not making your argument. Quite the contrary. 48 of 50 years with a winning record does not an elite program make any more than does an extended playoff streak with no titles to show.

However, as I said above, throw in a few championship games and bring home some hardware every so often, and the conversation can begin.

The Bison have 11 national championships since the 60s at whatever level they played during that time. That is something like an average of a championship every five years. (Even though they came in spurts in the 60s, 80s, and now.) How many programs can match that level of elite?

I, like 99% of the folks who aren't NDSU fans, don't really care what you did before you joined FCS.

However, it's easy for me to acknowledge NDSU is the top FCS program in the land right now. I just happen to think it's a slap in the face of several other programs, though, to try to lay sole claim in the category of "elite."

[SIUSalukiFan]

I, like 99% of the folks who aren't NDSU fans, don't really care what you did before you joined FCS.

However, it's easy for me to acknowledge NDSU is the top FCS program in the land right now. I just happen to think it's a slap in the face of several other programs, though, to try to lay sole claim in the category of "elite."

By the way, will somebody from New Hampshire jump in here? I'm defending the hell out of you guys. xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[thebootfitter]

I just happen to think it's a slap in the face of several other programs, though, to try to lay sole claim in the category of "elite."
I haven't seen anyone make that claim, except in the context of right now. And I think it is a fair claim to make. Based on recent accomplishments, there is only one team that truly stands apart from the rest of the field.

There are a handful of other teams that have established themselves apart from the rest of the field not named NDSU. I have already said that these could be considered "elite," though apparently not everyone agrees.

You could leave NDSU entirely out of the conversation, though, and I don't think you'd find many who agree that several consecutive playoff appearances without any titles qualifies a program as elite. I would absolutely concede that they could be considered consistently very good. We're really just arguing a definition of a word more than anything.

Perhaps the poll would have been more effective if it offered options for what constitutes "elite" in the minds of the voters.

For reference, here are a few definitions below, taken from online sources.

Elite: a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

Elite: the choice or best of anything considered collectively

Elite: the best of a class

It seems pretty clear that elite means "best." Superior. Top of the heap. I don't see anything in there about "consistently among the better teams, but never quite reaching the pinnacle."

[thebootfitter]

But I would guess their are about ten to fifteen, or even twenty teams that the majority of the FCS teams would consider elite.
While there may be some room to play with in the definition, I can't see using the term "elite" for 10-15% of a class. Hell, an 85% on a test isn't even a B+. To be elite, you've gotta be A+, no?


Maybe we each have our own definition.
...
For me, when I think of elite, I think of teams like that. But, then again, that's just my own subjective take.
Fair enough. It is a subjective topic.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

In FCS to me elite would be top 5 and if you felt charitable (I don't) then maybe top 10 but when you are going damn near 10% or better you are not talking about elite any longer. That is very good, not elite.

Anyway, there are lots of tools and references on the site that will help in the discussion. Here's one of them form the black bar at the top of every page.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AvHJfK4_Pa8jdEpWRHdCaGtfZ0Jwc2ZNYUJ4V1ZxL Xc&gid=1

[dudeitsaid]

In FCS to me elite would be top 5 and if you felt charitable (I don't) then maybe top 10 but when you are going damn near 10% or better you are not talking about elite any longer. That is very good, not elite.

Anyway, there are lots of tools and references on the site that will help in the discussion. Here's one of them form the black bar at the top of every page.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AvHJfK4_Pa8jdEpWRHdCaGtfZ0Jwc2ZNYUJ4V1ZxL Xc&gid=1

Nice spreadsheet.

I think it's interesting to look at the results over the past 20 years. The top 5 are UM, UD, NDSU, UNI, and EWU in that order. But four of those five teams achieved their "points" over the span of 20 years in the FCS. NDSU has accumulated the points to rank third in those five teams in roughly A FOURTH OF THAT TIME! That is truly impressive, and is another illustration of how truly set apart they are. DANG!

[IBleedYellow]

Nice spreadsheet.

I think it's interesting to look at the results over the past 20 years. The top 5 are UM, UD, NDSU, UNI, and EWU in that order. But four of those five teams achieved their "points" over the span of 20 years in the FCS. NDSU has accumulated the points to rank third in those five teams in roughly A FOURTH OF THAT TIME! That is truly impressive, and is another illustration of how truly set apart they are. DANG!

I know this wasn't possible due to our transition, but I really would have liked to have seen NDSU vs App State back in the 2006 and 2007 seasons. Would have been a whale of a game!

[penguinpower]

I know this wasn't possible due to our transition, but I really would have liked to have seen NDSU vs App State back in the 2006 and 2007 seasons. Would have been a whale of a game!

It would not have been a whale of a game. NDSU would have been blown off the field. App State was practically unbeatable in 2006. I watched them play and they were just outstanding. You wouldn't have had enough scholarships. In addition you weren't that good during your transition.

[dewey]

It would not have been a whale of a game. NDSU would have been blown off the field. App State was practically unbeatable in 2006. I watched them play and they were just outstanding. You wouldn't have had enough scholarships. In addition you weren't that good during your transition.

We weren't that good in 2006 and 2007? In 2006 we lost to a Minnesota gopher team on a last second blocked field goal and they went to a bowl game that year. I believe NDSU was a top 5 team for the majority of that season which included NDSU'S first win over a FBS team (Ball State).

In 2007 NDSU whooped up on the Minnesota Gophers and then took a good Central Michigan team behind the wood shed at their place and beat them by about 30 points. I believe Central Michigan either won the MAC or was right in the hunt but they ended up going g to a bowl game. NDSU was also ranked in the top 5 and was even the top ranked team for a large part of that season.

I am not saying that NDSU would have beaten Appalachian State but to say NDSU wasn't good during that time is ridiculous. 2 back to back 10-1 seasons with 3 wins over FBS teams and being ranked in the top 5 overall says otherwise.

I think the 2006 team was better than the 2007 team but it wasn't by very much.

I would say the elite teams in FCS are.
NDSU- 3 National Championships and 4 playoff appearances in 6 years of eligibility. Others don't want to hear it but NDSU won National Championships in 1965, 1968 and 1969 when there was not FCS/1 - AA and made numerous deep playoff runs before the FCS/1 - AA was formed.
Montana-2 National Championships and what 17 straight playoff appearances and 7 (?) National title game appearances.

Northern Iowa is close with the number of playoff appearances and conference titles but no National Championship.
Eastern Washington with numerous playoff appearances, National Championship in 210 and appearances in 3 straight National semifinals.
Youngstown State with (4?) National Championships but they haven't been in the playoffs for or even really good the last hand full of years.
Delaware

The following g are teams that would be FCS elite had they not left to go to the FBS.
Georgia Southern
Appalachian State
Boise State?

I might have missed a few as well.

Dewey

[NoDak 4 Ever]

It would not have been a whale of a game. NDSU would have been blown off the field. App State was practically unbeatable in 2006. I watched them play and they were just outstanding. You wouldn't have had enough scholarships. In addition you weren't that good during your transition.

NDSU was fully funded from the get go, they have always had enough scholarships. 06 and 07 were very good.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I, like 99% of the folks who aren't NDSU fans, don't really care what you did before you joined FCS.

However, it's easy for me to acknowledge NDSU is the top FCS program in the land right now. I just happen to think it's a slap in the face of several other programs, though, to try to lay sole claim in the category of "elite."

God damn you're a bitchy little one aren't ya?

NDSU this year will have made the playoffs 5 straight years so it kind of makes your list. Secondly, the past performance is absolutely indicative of future results. This is a program that has been the best at every level in which it has competed.

[GannonFan]

There's a lot of silliness in this thread. It's real easy, there's one elite program in FCS today and it's NDSU. It's not even a question. And the only program that's even in the vicinity is Montana. Including anyone else is just, I repeat myself, silly.

nova? Really? nova's only been in the playoffs in 5 of the past 16 years. Missing the playoffs in 9 of those years is now elite? And nova continues to draw tons of empty seats. Good program, but miles away from elite status.

EWU is a program that could acheive elite status, but they need quite a few more years.

UD used to be elite, but they never will be again. Fanbase was run off and the school is de-emphasizing football.

YSU used to be elite, but that was when they were cheating under Tressel.

Appy St and GSU were elite, but they left FCS and are gone. Same with Marshall.

Even with FCS being a shell of what it used to be, there's still just one elite program and it's NDSU. Period.

[Hammerhead]

Fans of every nearly every FBS team NDSU has played in recent years brought out the excuse that we beat one of their worst teams ever. Now it sounds like you think NDSU is only winning because the FCS as a whole is down?

I wish those 2006 and 2007 Bison teams could have been in the playoffs when we were finishing our transition to D-I. Three players from the 2006 defense are still playing in the NFL.



Once again, not taking anything away from what NDSU has done ovah the last 5 or so years at the FCS-level BUT you have to wondah if they would be so elite at the FCS-level if Boise St, Nevada-Reno, most of Conference USA, nearly all of the Sun Belt, UConn, UMass, Akron, South Florida et. al. were still playing at the FCS level.

Are the Bizon "elite" right now in FCS football? Absolutely...but one can't argue that they joined this level at a most opportune time to dominate as they have done so lately.

[thebootfitter]

It would not have been a whale of a game. NDSU would have been blown off the field. App State was practically unbeatable in 2006. I watched them play and they were just outstanding. You wouldn't have had enough scholarships. In addition you weren't that good during your transition.
Ha ha! Not that it does much good to deal with what ifs that can never be answered, but this is the sort of thing everyone said at the time if it was ever brought up. Yet look what has happened since then. Is it so farfetched to think NDSU could have given App State a game and come away victorious?

For reference, while Sagarin is not a perfect indicator, is shows NDSU as 2 pt dogs in 2006 and 7 pt dogs in 2007 on a neutral field. Not bad. Too lazy to look up Massey's archives right now, but I think we'd find something similar.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

There's a lot of silliness in this thread. It's real easy, there's one elite program in FCS today and it's NDSU. It's not even a question. And the only program that's even in the vicinity is Montana. Including anyone else is just, I repeat myself, silly.

nova? Really? nova's only been in the playoffs in 5 of the past 16 years. Missing the playoffs in 9 of those years is now elite? And nova continues to draw tons of empty seats. Good program, but miles away from elite status.

EWU is a program that could acheive elite status, but they need quite a few more years.

UD used to be elite, but they never will be again. Fanbase was run off and the school is de-emphasizing football.

YSU used to be elite, but that was when they were cheating under Tressel.

Appy St and GSU were elite, but they left FCS and are gone. Same with Marshall.

Even with FCS being a shell of what it used to be, there's still just one elite program and it's NDSU. Period.

Exactly (Except the part about Montana)

[thebootfitter]

Too lazy to look up Massey's archives right now, but I think we'd find something similar.
Here it is...

In 2007, App State was #1. NDSU #4. Massey has App State winning 67% of the time.

In 2006, App State was #1. NDSU #2. Massey has App State winning only 58% of the time.

Granted, computer ratings have their issues, but without anything else objective to look at how those teams compared to each other, and with two independent ratings systems telling the same story, there is likely something to it.

To say that NDSU could not have competed for the championship in those years is asinine. There is no evidence to support that argument and plenty of evidence for the contrary.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Here it is...

In 2007, App State was #1. NDSU #4. Massey has App State winning 67% of the time.

In 2006, App State was #1. NDSU #2. Massey has App State winning only 58% of the time.

Granted, computer ratings have their issues, but without anything else objective to look at how those teams compared to each other, and with two independent ratings systems telling the same story, there is likely something to it.

To say that NDSU could not have competed for the championship in those years is asinine. There is no evidence to support that argument and plenty of evidence for the contrary.

I would also contend that those ratings were affected by the relatively weaker competition in the Great West as opposed to the Southern Conference. That's why the playoffs are so important. That team could have gone toe to toe no doubt.

[penguinpower]

We weren't that good in 2006 and 2007? In 2006 we lost to a Minnesota gopher team on a last second blocked field goal and they went to a bowl game that year. I believe NDSU was a top 5 team for the majority of that season which included NDSU'S first win over a FBS team (Ball State).

In 2007 NDSU whooped up on the Minnesota Gophers and then took a good Central Michigan team behind the wood shed at their place and beat them by about 30 points. I believe Central Michigan either won the MAC or was right in the hunt but they ended up going g to a bowl game. NDSU was also ranked in the top 5 and was even the top ranked team for a large part of that season.

I am not saying that NDSU would have beaten Appalachian State but to say NDSU wasn't good during that time is ridiculous. 2 back to back 10-1 seasons with 3 wins over FBS teams and being ranked in the top 5 overall says otherwise.

I think the 2006 team was better than the 2007 team but it wasn't by very much.

I would say the elite teams in FCS are.
NDSU- 3 National Championships and 4 playoff appearances in 6 years of eligibility. Others don't want to hear it but NDSU won National Championships in 1965, 1968 and 1969 when there was not FCS/1 - AA and made numerous deep playoff runs before the FCS/1 - AA was formed.
Montana-2 National Championships and what 17 straight playoff appearances and 7 (?) National title game appearances.

Northern Iowa is close with the number of playoff appearances and conference titles but no National Championship.
Eastern Washington with numerous playoff appearances, National Championship in 210 and appearances in 3 straight National semifinals.
Youngstown State with (4?) National Championships but they haven't been in the playoffs for or even really good the last hand full of years.
Delaware

The following g are teams that would be FCS elite had they not left to go to the FBS.
Georgia Southern
Appalachian State
Boise State?

I might have missed a few as well.

Dewey


YSU has one of the best recordselection in the playoffs. Look it up I think they are 15-2 when they get in

[dwtime]

By the way, will somebody from New Hampshire jump in here? I'm defending the hell out of you guys. xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

UNH fan here. UNH has been a very strong and consistent program over the past 10 years or so one of the best in FCS, but they are not an elite program.

[IBleedYellow]

YSU has one of the best recordselection in the playoffs. Look it up I think they are 15-2 when they get in

NDSU is 15-1 for a .933%

YSU is 25-7 for .781%

Checkmate?

[PAllen]

Elite FCS/I-AA programs:

In the Past:
EKU
YSU
Lehigh
Holy Cross
Delaware
App St
GA Southern
Marshall
Montana

Current:
NDSU

Future:
New Hampshire
....

[penguinpower]

NDSU is 15-1 for a .933%

YSU is 25-7 for .781%

Checkmate?


You are counting division 2 years? I'm not. Dip****.

[IBleedYellow]

You are counting division 2 years? I'm not. Dip****.

No. Here is my source. Learn to do your own research (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&key=0AvHJfK4_Pa8jdGJtWkpvWmRDdnU0STdDV1JRaThqb3c&hl=en_US&gid=8)

[bisonboone11]

NDSU is 15-1 for a .933%

YSU is 25-7 for .781%

Checkmate?
NDSU is actually 14-1 for a 0.933.


You are counting division 2 years? I'm not. Dip****.
His number for NDSU was off by 1 when counting only FCS, but the percentage was correct. If he counted D2, NDSU's number would be much different. Here is a summary of how NDSU got to 14-1 in the FCS.
2010: 2-1;
2011: 4-0;
2012: 4-0;
2013: 4-0.
(2+4+4+4 = 14; 1+0+0+0 = 1... 14-1)

[IBleedYellow]

NDSU is actually 14-1 for a 0.933.


His number for NDSU was off by 1 when counting only FCS, but the percentage was correct. If he counted D2, NDSU's number would be much different. Here is a summary of how NDSU got to 14-1 in the FCS.
2010: 2-1;
2011: 4-0;
2012: 4-0;
2013: 4-0.
(2+4+4+4 = 14; 1+0+0+0 = 1... 14-1)

Yeah, I fat fingered 15 instead of 14. My bad.

If you want our bowl record, we're 7-5. If you want DII we're 30-12. FCS is 14-1.

In the past 4 years NDSU has played an entire extra season just in the postseason. Our seniors have so much extra game time it is bonkers.

[penguinpower]

No. Here is my source. Learn to do your own research (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&key=0AvHJfK4_Pa8jdGJtWkpvWmRDdnU0STdDV1JRaThqb3c&hl=en_US&gid=8)

Since 1990 in games leading to the national championship they've lost 2. 1990 and 2006 didn't make it to the title gam those years. The end of the semifinal game ends the playoffs in my mind. Losses from the 1990 forward come from title game losses in 1992 and 1999 and playoff lossee in 2006 and 1999. In 87,88,89 they were still building the team and I didno realize they made it in those years.

[IBleedYellow]

Since 1990 in games leading to the national championship they've lost 2. 1990 and 2006 didn't make it to the title gam those years. The end of the semifinal game ends the playoffs in my mind. Losses from the 1990 forward come from title game losses in 1992 and 1999 and playoff lossee in 2006 and 1999. In 87,88,89 they were still building the team and I didno realize they made it in those years.

So my facts are still 100% accurate and you're trying to keep out previous games? Understood.

[bisonboone11]

Since 1990 in games leading to the national championship they've lost 2. 1990 and 2006 didn't make it to the title gam those years. The end of the semifinal game ends the playoffs in my mind. Losses from the 1990 forward come from title game losses in 1992 and 1999 and playoff lossee in 2006 and 1999. In 87,88,89 they were still building the team and I didno realize they made it in those years.
So you're saying that if a team loses in the championship game, that should not be counted as a playoff loss???

[Bisonator]

Since 1990 in games leading to the national championship they've lost 2. 1990 and 2006 didn't make it to the title gam those years. The end of the semifinal game ends the playoffs in my mind. Losses from the 1990 forward come from title game losses in 1992 and 1999 and playoff lossee in 2006 and 1999. In 87,88,89 they were still building the team and I didno realize they made it in those years.

Don't let facts get in the way.....15-2 sounds way better! xlolx

[penguinpower]

Don't let facts get in the way.....15-2 sounds way better! xlolx

My response to conest what yellow said. He said you wasn't good in the playoffs.

[Bisonator]

My response to conest what yellow said. He said you wasn't good in the playoffs.

Wut???xconfusedx

[bisonboone11]

My response to conest what yellow said. He said you wasn't good in the playoffs.
I don't see anywhere that Yellow said anything like that. He just looked up the numbers (like you said to do) and posted them. I think you may be talking about Dewey, but Dewey didn't say Youngstown wasn't good in the playoffs. Here is what he said.
"Youngstown State with (4?) National Championships but they haven't been in the playoffs for or even really good the last hand full of years."
He didn't say you weren't good once you made it to the playoffs. He was saying that recently, Youngstown hasn't been in the playoffs very often.

[penguinpower]

Wut???xconfusedx

He said YSU wasn't good in the playoffs.

[Bisonator]

He said YSU wasn't good in the playoffs.

WTF are you talking about? Please show the quote.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Villanova is very interesting due to Talley being their only coach in the 1AA/FCS era.....

I consider Talley an elite coach and one of the best ever. My guess is most do not based on the numbers?

[GannonFan]

Villanova is very interesting due to Talley being their only coach in the 1AA/FCS era.....

I consider Talley an elite coach and one of the best ever. My guess is most do not based on the numbers?

When the numbers are 9 out of the past 16 years he didn't make the playoffs, then no. He's a great coach, but one of the best ever? No.

[IBleedYellow]

He said YSU wasn't good in the playoffs.
Who said YSU wasn't good in the playoffs? Surely not me. I only stated records. You really need to have some reading comprehension skills.

Sent from a TI-83+ Calculator

[bisonboone11]

Who said YSU wasn't good in the playoffs? Surely not me. I only stated records. You really need to have some reading comprehension skills.

Sent from a TI-83+ Calculator

http://cdn.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/But-Its-Hard.gif

[Thumper 76]

I would also contend that those ratings were affected by the relatively weaker competition in the Great West as opposed to the Southern Conference. That's why the playoffs are so important. That team could have gone toe to toe no doubt.

Well losing the GW in 2007 won't help your cause then ;)

[IBleedYellow]

Well losing the GW in 2007 won't help your cause then ;)

That damn game. It hurts. The fact we have owned you for the past 3 years helps ease the pain, though.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Well losing the GW in 2007 won't help your cause then ;)

Huh, still got that boner eh? Still would have been a seed and had a very good chance through the playoffs. That's the beauty of this system.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Andy Talley is an elite coach. Villanova is not an elite program.

I voted for Montana and NDSU.

[thebootfitter]

Still would have been a seed and had a very good chance through the playoffs. That's the beauty of this system.
Right, IF they had been eligible for the playoffs. Those '06 & '07 teams did about all they could have done, outside of a blocked field goal to beat MN and drop a close one to a conference rival.

Dang eligibility rules.

I do remember a few threads around that time suggesting that the Bison could have made some noise in the playoffs. The general response was, "Yeah, right. You have no idea. Come back and talk after you've won a playoff game, let alone a championship."

[Thumper 76]

Huh, still got that boner eh? Still would have been a seed and had a very good chance through the playoffs. That's the beauty of this system.

You were the one who was having a boner about '06 and '07. I just brought up a silly fact. Silly me. Sorry continue your self esteem building seminar.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

You were the one who was having a boner about '06 and '07. I just brought up a silly fact. Silly me. Sorry continue your self esteem building seminar.

You guys should combine your school colors and just go with green

[IBleedYellow]

You were the one who was having a boner about '06 and '07. I just brought up a silly fact. Silly me. Sorry continue your self esteem building seminar.

That game hurt...I'll be honest. You guys played a hell of a game.

[Thumper 76]

That game hurt...I'll be honest. You guys played a hell of a game.

Yeah it was fun. Our last three vs you not so much.

[Bisonator]

Well losing the GW in 2007 won't help your cause then ;)

The GWC trophy has to be getting awfully lonely in the closet.xlolx

[centennial]

Right, IF they had been eligible for the playoffs. Those '06 & '07 teams did about all they could have done, outside of a blocked field goal to beat MN and drop a close one to a conference rival.

Dang eligibility rules.

I do remember a few threads around that time suggesting that the Bison could have made some noise in the playoffs. The general response was, "Yeah, right. You have no idea. Come back and talk after you've won a playoff game, let alone a championship."

We did beat MN and the MAC champions 44-14, if I remember correctly. Then lost to SDSU while injury desimated. We could have easily challenged for the championship.

[centennial]

;)
That game hurt...I'll be honest. You guys played a hell of a game.
I was at that game. Left pissed after losing.

[Herder]

I think the term "elite" used in connection to FCS football is a bit oxymoronic, but that's just me.

NDSU is obviously the gold standard of FCS football right now. I would say this though, they joined the FCS-level at a time when the level had been watered down from were it once was with the defections of many FCS powers from the 80s, 90s and 00s.

That some revisionist history there Sader if you ask me. GA So and App were FCS, completely FCS during the 3 years of NDSU's championships. Who defected in the 80's 90's and 00's who were considered FCS elite? You could argue that Boise would be one, but nobody has Boise on their list of all time elite FCS programs. Who else left? Umass, WKY, Marshall, Nevada . . . no, no, maybe, no . . . as far as elite.

Sure if Boise, Marshall, and Nevada were FCS today, they would considered top tier programs. But these 3, other than Marshall, had their success at the higher scholarship level, not in the FCS.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

That some revisionist history there Sader if you ask me. GA So and App were FCS, completely FCS during the 3 years of NDSU's championships. Who defected in the 80's 90's and 00's who were considered FCS elite? You could argue that Boise would be one, but nobody has Boise on their list of all time elite FCS programs. Who else left? Umass, WKY, Marshall, Nevada . . . no, no, maybe, no . . . as far as elite.

Sure if Boise, Marshall, and Nevada were FCS today, they would considered top tier programs. But these 3, other than Marshall, had their success at the higher scholarship level, not in the FCS.

Marshall's best year was when they were considered a provisional FBS team and allowed to recruit as such. Give those teams 63 scholarships and see how they do.

[TypicalTribe]

That some revisionist history there Sader if you ask me. GA So and App were FCS, completely FCS during the 3 years of NDSU's championships. Who defected in the 80's 90's and 00's who were considered FCS elite? You could argue that Boise would be one, but nobody has Boise on their list of all time elite FCS programs. Who else left? Umass, WKY, Marshall, Nevada . . . no, no, maybe, no . . . as far as elite.

Sure if Boise, Marshall, and Nevada were FCS today, they would considered top tier programs. But these 3, other than Marshall, had their success at the higher scholarship level, not in the FCS.

UMass and Western Kentucky both won national championships and UMass played in another title game soon before making the move. I'm not exactly sure how to define elite but you can't do it so narrowly that almost noone qualifies.

[thebootfitter]

I'm not exactly sure how to define elite but you can't do it so narrowly that almost noone qualifies.
Isn't that pretty much the definition of elite, though? It is not meant to be a populated place.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

That some revisionist history there Sader if you ask me. GA So and App were FCS, completely FCS during the 3 years of NDSU's championships. Who defected in the 80's 90's and 00's who were considered FCS elite? You could argue that Boise would be one, but nobody has Boise on their list of all time elite FCS programs. Who else left? Umass, WKY, Marshall, Nevada . . . no, no, maybe, no . . . as far as elite.

Sure if Boise, Marshall, and Nevada were FCS today, they would considered top tier programs. But these 3, other than Marshall, had their success at the higher scholarship level, not in the FCS.

Boise was good but Idaho would have closer to elite than Boise or Nevada at that time I'd think. Great post though cuz it's dead on. FCS is every bit as good as it ever way as far as teams and talent.

[ysubigred]

UMass and Western Kentucky both won national championships and UMass played in another title game soon before making the move. I'm not exactly sure how to define elite but you can't do it so narrowly that almost noone qualifies.

4 teams are "elite" by my standards and 2 honorable mention... Can't have any team who makes the playoff's or an NC appearance a few time as "elite" we'd just label the whole 1FCS "elite" and only NDSU is reletive right now in 1FCS. xcoffeex YSU has work to do to become "elite" again.

1. GSU 6 time NC Moved onto 1BCS

2. YSU 4 time NC MVFC

3. NDSU 3 time NC MVFC

4. APP State 3 time NC Moved onto 1BCS

Honorable mentions for #'s of near misses,,

Montana 2 time NC 5 runner ups BSC
Marshall 2 time NC 4 runner ups

[thebootfitter]

We did beat MN and the MAC champions 44-14, if I remember correctly. Then lost to SDSU while injury desimated. We could have easily challenged for the championship.
I was referring to '06 and '07 together. Back to back 10-1 seasons. Highly rated by both Sagarin and Massey.

In 2007, arguably the weaker year between those two, they beat a poor 1-win MN team 27-21 and an 8-win and bowl bound MAC champion Central Michigan team 44-14. Lost final game of the season to the Jacks 29-24.

In 2006, they lost one game when a 6-win and bowl bound MN team blocked a last-second field goal. 10-9. They beat a 5-win Ball State team 29-24.

The Bison could have challenged in the playoffs both of those years. But alas...

[ursus arctos horribilis]

UMass and Western Kentucky both won national championships and UMass played in another title game soon before making the move. I'm not exactly sure how to define elite but you can't do it so narrowly that almost noone qualifies.

What? That is exactly how you define elite in my book?

[bisonboone11]

What? That is exactly how you define elite in my book?
Then people would feel left out.

[Sader87]

I'm not saying all those schools that defected to FBS are/were "elite"....just that their departure left somewhat of a vacuum at the top of the FCS-level as it exists today.

Ursus and I disagree on this and that's fine and why these boards exist.

[ysubigred]

I'm not saying all those schools that defected to FBS are/were "elite"....just that their departure left somewhat of a vacuum at the top of the FCS-level as it exists today.

Ursus and I disagree on this and that's fine and why these boards exist.

GSU and Appy State was elite when leaving. UMass, WKU, ID, Bosie, and Marshall were not .xtwocentsx

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'm not saying all those schools that defected to FBS are/were "elite"....just that their departure left somewhat of a vacuum at the top of the FCS-level as it exists today.

Ursus and I disagree on this and that's fine and why these boards exist.

Yep, the FCS has never been worse in stature than it is now. It is at its nadir.

[BisonTru]

What is an elite FCS program? Seems it varies from each different poster.

We really need to set up a task force that doesn't necessarily define elite but who could look into the processes that we could use to define "elite." They could or could not recommend a process to which we could go about to define "elite."

I nominate Robert Kelley to appoint said committee.

[ysubigred]

Here's the current list of Champions.

^ Moved to 1BCS



Team

Titles

Title Years

Finals

Runner-up



Georgia Southern (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Georgia_Southern_Eagles_football)^

6

1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, 1999, 2000

8

1988, 1998



Youngstown State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Youngstown_State_Penguins_football)

4

1991, 1993, 1994, 1997

6

1992, 1999



Appalachian State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Appalachian_State_Mountaineers_football)^

3

2005, 2006, 2007

3




North Dakota State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/North_Dakota_State_Bison_football)

3

2011, 2012, 2013

3




Montana (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Montana_Grizzlies_football)

2

1995, 2001

7

1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2009



Marshall (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Marshall_Thundering_Herd_football)^

2

1992, 1996

6

1987, 1991, 1993, 1995



Eastern Kentucky (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Eastern_Kentucky_Colonels_football)

2

1979, 1982

4

1980, 1981



Delaware (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Delaware_Fightin%27_Blue_Hens_football)

1

2003

4

1982, 2007, 2010



Furman (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Furman_Paladins_football)

1

1988

3

1985, 2001



Massachusetts (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/UMass_Minutemen_football)^

1

1998

3

1978, 2006



Boise State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Boise_State_Broncos_football)^

1

1980

2

1994



Eastern Washington (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Eastern_Washington_Eagles_football)

1

2010

1




Florida A&M (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Florida_A%26M_Rattlers_football)

1

1978

1




Idaho State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Idaho_State_Bengals_football)

1

1981

1




James Madison (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/James_Madison_Dukes_football)

1

2004

1




Northeast Louisiana (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Louisiana%E2%80%93Monroe_Warhawks_football)^

1

1987

1




Montana State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Montana_State_Bobcats_football)

1

1984

1




Richmond (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Richmond_Spiders_football)

1

2008

1




Southern Illinois (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Southern_Illinois_Salukis_football)

1

1983

1




Villanova (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Villanova_Wildcats_football)

1

2009

1




Western Kentucky (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Western_Kentucky_Hilltoppers_football)^

1

2002

1




McNeese State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/McNeese_State_Cowboys_football)



2

1997, 2002



Sam Houston State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Sam_Houston_State_Bearkats_football)



2

2011, 2012



Arkansas State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Arkansas_State_Red_Wolves_football)^



1

1986



Colgate (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Colgate_Raiders_football)



1

2003



Lehigh (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Lehigh_Mountain_Hawks_football)



1

1979



Louisiana Tech (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/1984_Louisiana_Tech_Bulldogs_football_team)^



1

1984



Nevada (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/1990_Nevada_Wolf_Pack_football_team)^



1

1990



Northern Iowa (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/2005_Northern_Iowa_Panthers_football_team)



1

2005



Stephen F. Austin (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Stephen_F._Austin_Lumberjacks_football)



1

1989



Towson (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Towson_Tigers_football)



1

2013



Western Carolina (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Western_Carolina_Catamounts_football)



1

1983

[Sader87]

Yep, the FCS has never been worse in stature than it is now. It is at its nadir.

It's still a good level.....but it has become too top-heavy with MVFC schools (8 out of the Top 20 in the latest Massey polls), no offense to these schools but teams like Sacred Heart and Bryant (with limited schollies) etc wouldn't be sniffing the Top 25 when the FCS was deeper.

Taking nothing away from NDSU....just that the level isn't as deep/strong as it once was.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

It's still a good level.....but it has become too top-heavy with MVFC schools (8 out of the Top 20 in the latest Massey polls), no offense to these schools but teams like Sacred Heart and Bryant (with limited schollies) etc wouldn't be sniffing the Top 25 when the FCS was deeper.

Taking nothing away from NDSU....just that the level isn't as deep/strong as it once was.

There's a simple solution to that. Fund yourself fully. No rules against it.

[centennial]

It's still a good level.....but it has become too top-heavy with MVFC schools (8 out of the Top 20 in the latest Massey polls), no offense to these schools but teams like Sacred Heart and Bryant (with limited schollies) etc wouldn't be sniffing the Top 25 when the FCS was deeper.

Taking nothing away from NDSU....just that the level isn't as deep/strong as it once was.
Its going to get worst when BCS schools start paying money to 85 players. It will become a easier to sit 2-3 deep on Alabama then to start on P5 or upper FCS school.

[ysubigred]

It's still a good level.....but it has become too top-heavy with MVFC schools (8 out of the Top 20 in the latest Massey polls), no offense to these schools but teams like Sacred Heart and Bryant (with limited schollies) etc wouldn't be sniffing the Top 25 when the FCS was deeper.

Taking nothing away from NDSU....just that the level isn't as deep/strong as it once was.

Still shouldn't be. ^^

Since NDSU and SDSU joined FCS and the MVFC I feel it forced the MVFC teams to get better. That's why you see 8 out of the Top 20 in the latest Massey polls from the MVFC. The only conference I feel that is/was hurt from the 1BCS jump was the SOCON. Arguably the best 1FCS team ever was the 96 Marshall team.. I'd put last year's NDSU team up against them any day xtwocentsx 1FCS is just as good and deep as it ever was xdrunkyx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

GSU and Appy State was elite when leaving. UMass, WKU, ID, Bosie, and Marshall were not .xtwocentsx

Agree with this. With their final seasons being set aside App & GSU were already elite programs prior to that.

[BisonTru]

Its going to get worst when BCS schools start paying money to 85 players. It will become a easier to sit 2-3 deep on Alabama then to start on P5 or upper FCS school.

When does a kid with a P5 offer go elsewhere? G5 (very rarely) FCS (never)

The only argument would be would a kid take a PWO offer to a P5 over a G5 or FCS offer. I don't see it. Why pay tuition and board for a couple of years hoping for a scholarship and stipend in the future over a full ride at the G5 or FCS level.

[AshevilleApp2]

No. Now that they are gone, I can freely say this without boosting the ego of an entire fanbase, but the best FCS program ever to me is Georgia Southern. In 1981, they didn't even have a football program. Just twenty years later, they had won 6 National Championships. Imagine Mercer winning six titles and being runner up two other times by 2033. It just seems incredibly implausible, however that's what they did.

Hard to say it, but I agree. NDSU may ultimately claim the top spot, but going back to back three different times, under three different coaches, gives them the historic edge.

[Sader87]

When does a kid with a P5 offer go elsewhere? G5 (very rarely) FCS (never)

The only argument would be would a kid take a PWO offer to a P5 over a G5 or FCS offer. I don't see it. Why pay tuition and board for a couple of years hoping for a scholarship and stipend in the future over a full ride at the G5 or FCS level.

For argument's sake, the Ivies get a few kids here and there who have had P5 offers (usually a Stanford, Duke, Vandy etc offer).

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Hard to say it, but I agree. NDSU may ultimately claim the top spot, but going back to back three different times, under three different coaches, gives them the historic edge.

I don't think there was ever question with GSU being the top all time dog was/is there?

[Bisonator]

I don't think there was ever question with GSU being the top all time dog was/is there?
No.

[thebootfitter]

I don't think there was ever question with GSU being the top all time dog was/is there?
Agreed.

But let's talk again in 5, 10, or 15 years. ;)

Interesting tidbit that could likely be verified if you spoke to either individual, but Erk Russell was reported to have had a conversation with Rocky Hager (then Bison coach) sometime in the late 80s or early 90s in which he said that he felt the DII Bison would have given those championship Georgia Southern teams of that era everything they could handle.

Readily admitting the limitations of computer models -- especially across divisions -- this is still interesting: Massey concurs with Erk Russell, indicating that NDSU held a slight edge in both '86 and '90, which were championship years for both programs in their respective divisions.

Per Massey archives, here's a decade's worth of NDSU's odds of beating Georgia Southern on a neutral field at the end of each respective year:

1983 - 93% (NDSU vs DIAA Champ SIU - 25%)
1984 - 73% (NDSU vs DIAA Champ MT St - 34%)
1985 - 43%
1986 - 57%
1987 - 32% (NDSU vs DIAA Champ NE LA - 14%)
1988 - 35% (NDSU vs DIAA Champ Furman - 31%)
1989 - 6%
1990 - 53%
1991 - 15% (NDSU vs DIAA Champ Youngstown - 21%)
1992 - 65% (NDSU vs DIAA Champ Marshall - 33%)

Coulda, shoulda, woulda... But it's not farfetched to consider that had NDSU moved up with their peers at the time (Montana schools and UNI, for example), they would have given Georgia Southern a good challenge even in their glory days.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

It can be kind of tricky defining who is and isn't elite.

I consider Georgia Southern a (formerly) elite program but let's be real, despite what a lot of triple-option haters might say that offense did play a role in our national championships. We've also been blessed with some good coaches.

I will say this, I think Montana is second to none at making coaches look better than they are. No offense to Bobby Hauck, but I don't think he would win the number of FCS playoff games at NDSU, App, or Georgia Southern. If you try to normalize for quality of coaches over the years, the Griz might be the all-time best program.

[AmsterBison]

Per Massey archives, here's a decade's worth of NDSU's odds of beating Georgia Southern on a neutral field at the end of each respective year:


Much as I'd have loved to have seen the 1986 NDSU v 1986 Georgia Southern, I don't think that Massey does a very good job of comparing D2 to DI because good D2 teams rarely get matched up with good FCS teams. That said, good D2 programs can beat good FCS programs, and the 1986 Bison was the best D2 team ever. That's one thing that makes GSU v NDSU '86 a dream game - that, and the fact that it can't happen.

As for the FCS being diluted - sure, the FCS has lost some good programs as well as the greatest-ever, but the subdivision has added even more programs that either are very good already (e.g. SDSU, Central Arkansas, NDSU, etc) and others who have the potential to be very good (I'm looking at you UC Davis.) I've seen dilution in D2, and the FCS isn't there yet especially since it seems like the gap between the top of the FCS and the middle to lower FBS is practically non-existent.

BTW, voted for "Other." Gotta be at least 8 elite programs in the FCS.

[PAllen]

Here's the current list of Champions.

^ Moved to 1BCS



Team
Titles
Title Years
Finals
Runner-up


Georgia Southern (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Georgia_Southern_Eagles_football)^
6
1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, 1999, 2000
8
1988, 1998


Youngstown State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Youngstown_State_Penguins_football)
4
1991, 1993, 1994, 1997
6
1992, 1999


Appalachian State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Appalachian_State_Mountaineers_football)^
3
2005, 2006, 2007
3



North Dakota State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/North_Dakota_State_Bison_football)
3
2011, 2012, 2013
3



Montana (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Montana_Grizzlies_football)
2
1995, 2001
7
1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2009


Marshall (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Marshall_Thundering_Herd_football)^
2
1992, 1996
6
1987, 1991, 1993, 1995


Eastern Kentucky (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Eastern_Kentucky_Colonels_football)
2
1979, 1982
4
1980, 1981


Delaware (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Delaware_Fightin%27_Blue_Hens_football)
1
2003
4
1982, 2007, 2010


Furman (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Furman_Paladins_football)
1
1988
3
1985, 2001


Massachusetts (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/UMass_Minutemen_football)^
1
1998
3
1978, 2006


Boise State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Boise_State_Broncos_football)^
1
1980
2
1994


Eastern Washington (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Eastern_Washington_Eagles_football)
1
2010
1



Florida A&M (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Florida_A%26M_Rattlers_football)
1
1978
1



Idaho State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Idaho_State_Bengals_football)
1
1981
1



James Madison (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/James_Madison_Dukes_football)
1
2004
1



Northeast Louisiana (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Louisiana%E2%80%93Monroe_Warhawks_football)^
1
1987
1



Montana State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Montana_State_Bobcats_football)
1
1984
1



Richmond (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Richmond_Spiders_football)
1
2008
1



Southern Illinois (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Southern_Illinois_Salukis_football)
1
1983
1



Villanova (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Villanova_Wildcats_football)
1
2009
1



Western Kentucky (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Western_Kentucky_Hilltoppers_football)^
1
2002
1



McNeese State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/McNeese_State_Cowboys_football)


2
1997, 2002


Sam Houston State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Sam_Houston_State_Bearkats_football)


2
2011, 2012


Arkansas State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Arkansas_State_Red_Wolves_football)^


1
1986


Colgate (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Colgate_Raiders_football)


1
2003


Lehigh (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Lehigh_Mountain_Hawks_football)


1
1979


Louisiana Tech (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/1984_Louisiana_Tech_Bulldogs_football_team)^


1
1984


Nevada (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/1990_Nevada_Wolf_Pack_football_team)^


1
1990


Northern Iowa (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/2005_Northern_Iowa_Panthers_football_team)


1
2005


Stephen F. Austin (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Stephen_F._Austin_Lumberjacks_football)


1
1989


Towson (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Towson_Tigers_football)


1
2013


Western Carolina (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/wiki/Western_Carolina_Catamounts_football)


1
1983




Lehigh and Holy Cross really took a hit from the PL ban on playoff participation in the eighties and early 90s. Holy Cross especially had some killer teams during that period that just weren't able to compete for a championship. Lehigh has had a moderate amount of success since, but certainly not elite. Holy Cross is now a shell of what they once were.

[GannonFan]

I've seen dilution in D2, and the FCS isn't there yet especially since it seems like the gap between the top of the FCS and the middle to lower FBS is practically non-existent.


I think that last comment's a bit of a stretch. Sure there are one or two examples a year of top FCS teams hanging with or even beating a team from the middle to lower part of FBS. But on the vast whole, the FCS teams lose year in and year out to those teams. Granted, if you're talking the bottom 20 of FBS then yes, they aren't any better than FCS, and often worse. But there's like 120-some FBS teams and you get more results (like 4-3 Toledo blowing the doors off highly FCS-ranked UNH 54-20 this year) than you do the NDSU wins. Calling the gap "practically non-existent" is more optimism than realism.

[IBleedYellow]

When does a kid with a P5 offer go elsewhere? G5 (very rarely) FCS (never)

The only argument would be would a kid take a PWO offer to a P5 over a G5 or FCS offer. I don't see it. Why pay tuition and board for a couple of years hoping for a scholarship and stipend in the future over a full ride at the G5 or FCS level.

John Crockett. Had offers from almost the entire B1G until they realized he couldn't pass the clearing house. I realize that they dropped him because of grades, but he was talented enough to play FBS football, and he had to sit a good 2 years to get academically eligible at NDSU.

It rarely happens, but P5 talent can end up on FCS squads.

[IBleedYellow]

I think that last comment's a bit of a stretch. Sure there are one or two examples a year of top FCS teams hanging with or even beating a team from the middle to lower part of FBS. But on the vast whole, the FCS teams lose year in and year out to those teams. Granted, if you're talking the bottom 20 of FBS then yes, they aren't any better than FCS, and often worse. But there's like 120-some FBS teams and you get more results (like 4-3 Toledo blowing the doors off highly FCS-ranked UNH 54-20 this year) than you do the NDSU wins. Calling the gap "practically non-existent" is more optimism than realism.

I would say the elite FCS schools would be able to play week in and week out with another 22 kids on scholarship, no doubt about it.

[Professor Chaos]

Yeah it was fun. Our last three vs you not so much.
What about the 2 more before that where the Bison also won? :D

[Thumper 76]

What about the 2 more before that where the Bison also won? :D

Hey you leave my selective memory alone :)

[AshevilleApp2]

I don't think there was ever question with GSU being the top all time dog was/is there?

Nope. I don't have to like it though. :)

[TypicalTribe]

GSU and Appy State was elite when leaving. UMass, WKU, ID, Bosie, and Marshall were not .xtwocentsx

Marshall wasn't elite when they moved up? Won the title in 1992, runners up in 93 and 95 and one of the greatest I-AA teams of all time going 15-0 and winning again in 96 in their final I-AA season. Couple of guys named Pennington and Moss were pretty good. I don't know how you get more elite than that.

[AmsterBison]

I think that last comment's a bit of a stretch. Sure there are one or two examples a year of top FCS teams hanging with or even beating a team from the middle to lower part of FBS. But on the vast whole, the FCS teams lose year in and year out to those teams. Granted, if you're talking the bottom 20 of FBS then yes, they aren't any better than FCS, and often worse. But there's like 120-some FBS teams and you get more results (like 4-3 Toledo blowing the doors off highly FCS-ranked UNH 54-20 this year) than you do the NDSU wins. Calling the gap "practically non-existent" is more optimism than realism.

Maybe UNH shouldn't be so highly rated. :) MVFC teams have certainly shown the ability to play with and beat BCS teams. Cripes, UNI has hung with or beat Iowa, Iowa State, and Wisconsin the last couple years and has done nothing much in the MVFC.

But, point taken. That was probably a reach to say the difference is almost non-existent. How about, "The gap between elite FCS programs and middle of the pack FBS teams isn't any greater than it has ever been" and work from there?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Marshall wasn't elite when they moved up? Won the title in 1992, runners up in 93 and 95 and one of the greatest I-AA teams of all time going 15-0 and winning again in 96 in their final I-AA season. Couple of guys named Pennington and Moss were pretty good. I don't know how you get more elite than that.

Under the current rules system they would have been like ODU or Appy/GSU last year. They got an advantage by declaring for FBS and getting the transfers/recruits they did so not really the same.

[Tribal]

Let me know when there's a thread on academically elite public schools who have a pretty good football program every few years. Until then, I got nuthin'.

#RisingTribe

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Under the current rules system they would have been like ODU or Appy/GSU last year. They got an advantage by declaring for FBS and getting the transfers/recruits they did so not really the same.

Marshall was absolutely elite. They were basically the face of 1AA football in the 90's. The fact they hosted the title game in a "big time'ish" stadium only added to the allure. CBS, iirc, sent one of their top-shelf crews to do those games......

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It's still a good level.....but it has become too top-heavy with MVFC schools (8 out of the Top 20 in the latest Massey polls), no offense to these schools but teams like Sacred Heart and Bryant (with limited schollies) etc wouldn't be sniffing the Top 25 when the FCS was deeper.

Taking nothing away from NDSU....just that the level isn't as deep/strong as it once was.

But the PL still had a few teams (not from Worcester) that made the Top 25 during that time despite while being "non-scholarship" xrotatehx

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Marshall was absolutely elite. They were basically the face of 1AA football in the 90's. The fact they hosted the title game in a "big time'ish" stadium only added to the allure. CBS, iirc, sent one of their top-shelf crews to do those games......

I'm just saying that the only year anyone points to is '96 with Pennington and Moss. A year in which they enjoyed a particular advantage no longer available.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I'm just saying that the only year anyone points to is '96 with Pennington and Moss. A year in which they enjoyed a particular advantage no longer available.

Only because of their dominance that year and Moss's ridiculousness. Ultimately, that was just the final chapter in a great run. The title game in 1991 was just as compelling imo. Marshall and YSU basically made one another and 1AA football in the 90's. Youngstown and Huntington were very similar given their regional proximity, economies, demographics etc. Imo, that was the "golden age"....

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Only because of their dominance that year and Moss's ridiculousness. Ultimately, that was just the final chapter in a great run. The title game in 1991 was just as compelling imo. Marshall and YSU basically made one another and 1AA football in the 90's. Youngstown and Huntington were very similar given their regional proximity, economies, demographics etc. Imo, that was the "golden age"....

Ah yes, the good old days before the current rock bottom of FCS.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Ah yes, the good old days before the current rock bottom of FCS.

It was a very exciting time in FCS and I would agree it was probably the tops as far a short term back & forth but it would not take much for that time to come again with current programs either.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Ah yes, the good old days before the current rock bottom of FCS.

You said it, not me.... xnodx

It felt it a little bigger back then imo. A lot of it had to with Marshall hosting the title games. Plus, the game's were on CBS right before the holiday's when there weren't 147 bowl games to saturate that time frame.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

http://cdn.oneherd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/NDSU_ESPN_GameDay_Canvas_Print.jpg?851ee6

[thebootfitter]

I'm just saying that the only year anyone points to is '96 with Pennington and Moss. A year in which they enjoyed a particular advantage no longer available.
I think I've had to point this out to you before. Maybe not you, but someone anyway:

Pennington was not the QB for that '96 year with Moss. He sat the year out while Eric Kresser QB'd the team. Pennington came back the following year to lead Marshall into DI-A land.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

And I raise you College Day at Penn vs Harvard in 2002. I was going to go Willims-Amherst but decided against it. Corso as Ben Franklin is simply too good....

http://upenngazettesports.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/college-gameday.jpg

[TypicalTribe]

I'm just saying that the only year anyone points to is '96 with Pennington and Moss. A year in which they enjoyed a particular advantage no longer available.

92-96 they played in 4 title games and won 2. That's elite. Full stop. The rules you're referencing didn't impact all those years.

[Grizalltheway]

Only because of their dominance that year and Moss's ridiculousness. Ultimately, that was just the final chapter in a great run. The title game in 1991 was just as compelling imo. Marshall and YSU basically made one another and 1AA football in the 90's. Youngstown and Huntington were very similar given their regional proximity, economies, demographics etc. Imo, that was the "golden age"....

Hey, don't forget the Griz upsetting those cousin ****ers in their house. xthumbsupx

[SIUSalukiFan]

God damn you're a bitchy little one aren't ya?

NDSU this year will have made the playoffs 5 straight years so it kind of makes your list. Secondly, the past performance is absolutely indicative of future results. This is a program that has been the best at every level in which it has competed.

As noted several times I have the utmost respect for North Dakota State. You guys are elite. But guess what? We don't need another GD thread on the subject. xlolx

I am a life-long St. Louis Cardinals fan and live in a state other than Missouri. Many of my best friends have no idea. You know why? I don't have to tell them every day the Cardinals are one of MLB's elite franchises. The proof is in the pudding.

You guys should sit back and enjoy the ride and not worry about your place in FCS history or the current hierarchy. It's safe.

[Grizalltheway]

As noted several times I have the utmost respect for North Dakota State. You guys are elite. But guess what? We don't need another GD thread on the subject. xlolx

I am a life-long St. Louis Cardinals fan and live in a state other than Missouri. Many of my best friends have no idea. You know why? I don't have to tell them every day the Cardinals are one of MLB's elite franchises. The proof is in the pudding.

You guys should sit back and enjoy the ride and not worry about your place in FCS history or the current hierarchy. It's safe.

xbowxxbowx

[bisonboone11]

As noted several times I have the utmost respect for North Dakota State. You guys are elite. But guess what? We don't need another GD thread on the subject. xlolx

I am a life-long St. Louis Cardinals fan and live in a state other than Missouri. Many of my best friends have no idea. You know why? I don't have to tell them every day the Cardinals are one of MLB's elite franchises. The proof is in the pudding.

You guys should sit back and enjoy the ride and not worry about your place in FCS history or the current hierarchy. It's safe.

To be fair, this thread was started by AlphaGriz (although he sometimes appears to be more of a Bison fan than a Griz fan), and the thread titled "Teams that could challenge NDSU and why" was started by Lehigh'98. It's not NDSU fans starting these threads.

[Grizalltheway]

To be fair, this thread was started by AlphaGriz (although he sometimes appears to be more of a Bison fan than a Griz fan), and the thread titled "Teams that could challenge NDSU and why" was started by Lehigh'98. It's not NDSU fans starting these threads.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that certain Bison posters (coughNoDakcough) feel the need to constantly remind us all how great the NDSU program is and that no would should even bother playing them anymore.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

True, but that doesn't change the fact that certain Bison posters (coughNoDakcough) feel the need to constantly remind us all how great the NDSU program is and that no would should even bother playing them anymore.

I am simply participating in these threads. Where did I post anything like that?

[SIUSalukiFan]

To be fair, this thread was started by AlphaGriz (although he sometimes appears to be more of a Bison fan than a Griz fan), and the thread titled "Teams that could challenge NDSU and why" was started by Lehigh'98. It's not NDSU fans starting these threads.

You are absolutely correct, sir. Thanks for the clarification.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Let me know when there's a thread on academically elite public schools who have a pretty good football program every few years. Until then, I got nuthin'.

#RisingTribe

Letting you know.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?162845-Academically-elite-public-schools-who-have-a-pretty-good-football-program

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I am simply participating in these threads. Where did I post anything like that?

Dude, come on, that's the same thing MPLS says. Sometimes you come on a little strong so you just gotta own up to it. xlolx

[Lehigh'98]

Most Bison fans are very gracious, there are a few who defend the Bison like they are receiving a paycheck from them.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Dude, come on, that's the same thing MPLS says. Sometimes you come on a little strong so you just gotta own up to it. xlolx

I would contend in these threads it's just a set up for people to suggest something about NDSU then for a dozen or so people to start chipping away. i pretty much answer the chipping.

Why am I constantly having to defend my participation in this silly dance? Should I just let everybody piss all over me and my team? Don't bet on it.

[Lehigh'98]

I would contend in these threads it's just a set up for people to suggest something about NDSU then for a dozen or so people to start chipping away. i pretty much answer the chipping.

Why am I constantly having to defend my participation in this silly dance? Should I just let everybody piss all over me and my team? Don't bet on it.

Get some salsa for that big chip on your shoulder!! Congrats on the ownership of the Bison..

[Silenoz]

Should I just let everybody piss all over me and my team?

My mind is trying to process the fact that someone who has pissed on other people's teams 11,000+ times just wrote that

[NoDak 4 Ever]

My mind is trying to process the fact that someone who has pissed on other people's teams 11,000+ times just wrote that

Then come up with something clever to say back instead of bitching about what I post.

[IBleedYellow]

Then come up with something clever to say back instead of bitching about what I post.

You should probably take a break from AGS for a week or two....

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Then come up with something clever to say back instead of bitching about what I post.

NoDak, I don't care what you do just saying you do quite the bit of dancing when no one is even asking you for a dance. You are the first to throw the barbs while being the most sensitive about a perceived disrespect.

Hypersensitivity is fine if it's what you are going for then good enough by me.

If you honestly look at just your last 3 posts who would you say those look most like? Not gonna fight with ya about it. xthumbsupx

[NoDak 4 Ever]

You should probably take a break from AGS for a week or two....

You tried that already. They should make you a mod, you can curate the whole forum to your liking.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You should probably take a break from AGS for a week or two....

Ah, I don't see it as nearly that big a deal. Mountains out of mole hills and all that.

[Grizalltheway]

Then come up with something clever to say back instead of bitching about what I post.

When most of your smack boils down to KISS THE RINGZ BITCH, 500 GAME WIN STREAK, why would anyone bother coming up with clever responses to that?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Ah, I don't see it as nearly that big a deal. Mountains out of mole hills and all that.

I agree. In fact, I've agreed with a lot of posts in this thread but for some reason the focus falls on me. Absolutely not trying to do that but I guess somebody can call this whole thing a circle jerk and I should just agree too.

- - - Updated - - -


When most of your smack boils down to KISS THE RINGZ BITCH, 500 GAME WIN STREAK, why would anyone bother coming up with clever responses to that?

Can you quote something?

[kalm]

Surprised at the stinginess here.

I'd base it on NC's, deep runs, consistent playoff appearances, attendance, and both history and current relevancy.

EWU
Montana
Montana State
NDSU
UNI
YSU
SIU
MacNeese
SHSU
Furman
UD
Richmond
JMU
UNH
Nova
W&M

These are all elite programs with sustained success, recent (enough) deep championships and deep runs, and name recognition.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Surprised at the stinginess here.

I'd base it on NC's, deep runs, consistent playoff appearances, attendance, and both history and current relevancy.

EWU
Montana
Montana State
NDSU
UNI
YSU
SIU
MacNeese
SHSU
Furman
UD
Richmond
JMU
UNH
Nova
W&M

These are all elite programs with sustained success, recent (enough) deep championships and deep runs, and name recognition.

You have listed just short of 13% of the teams. I would say that elite would probably comprise less than 5% so in the 6 or less range.

[kalm]

You have listed just short of 13% of the teams. I would say that elite would probably comprise less than 5% so in the 6 or less range.


noun1.(often used with a plural verb) the choice or bestof anything considered collectively, as of a groupor class of persons.






Don't see anything in the definition regarding percentages, so I'll stick with my own findings, thank you very much.

Also…"Elite 8".

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Don't see anything in the definition regarding percentages, so I'll stick with my own findings, thank you very much.

Also…"Elite 8".

There are 351 Men's Basketball teams. The Elite 8 represents 2.2%

[kalm]

There are 351 Men's Basketball teams. The Elite 8 represents 2.2%

Or it represents the 8 remaining teams in the playoff field of 64.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Or it represents the 8 remaining teams in the playoff field of 64.

So, make the case for your elite 16.

[kalm]

So, make the case for your elite 16.

I already did. Each of those teams has some combination of championships, deep runs, playoffs, sustained success, name recognition, and attendance.

[KPSUL]

By the way, will somebody from New Hampshire jump in here? I'm defending the hell out of you guys. xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxBuilding a FCS winning team is not necessarily the same process as building a successful FBS program. The top FCS coaches have built programs, and a style of play, to win against their FCS opponents, not to stay close to mediocre FBS teams. UNH was 5-0 against 1A programs from 2004-2009, but hasn’t won one since. Those teams were not all better than some of the more recent UNH, in fact, this year’s team may be better than all of them. Last’s year’s UNH team went farther in the FCS playoff than any team during the FBS winning streak and lost their FBS match-up. I believe UNH’s success against 1A programs was due their spread, no huddle, fast paced offensive style; their FBS opponents had little or no experience defensing it. In recent years, defensing that type of offense has been routine in college football. So now it comes down to the tangibles, the speed, strength and skill of execution. Virtually any program in FBS has an advantage in the first two. Except for several MVFC teams, I’ve noticed a trend in recent FCS/FBS games. It’s common for the FCS team to stay in the game for the first half, but lose the second half decisively. That means to me that eventually they are slowly getting worn down by slightly faster and stronger opponents. I’d like to hear from MVFC fans who know the few teams that have managed to buck this trend. And not more CUZ WE ARE GREAT comments

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Building a FCS winning team is not necessarily the same process as building a successful FBS program. The top FCS coaches have built programs, and a style of play, to win against their FCS opponents, not to stay close to mediocre FBS teams. UNH was 5-0 against 1A programs from 2004-2009, but hasn’t won one since. Those teams were not all better than some of the more recent UNH, in fact, this year’s team may be better than all of them. Last’s year’s UNH team went farther in the FCS playoff than any team during the FBS winning streak and lost their FBS match-up. I believe UNH’s success against 1A programs was due their spread, no huddle, fast paced offensive style; their FBS opponents had little or no experience defensing it. In recent years, defensing that type of offense has been routine in college football. So now it comes down to the tangibles, the speed, strength and skill of execution. Virtually any program in FBS has an advantage in the first two. Except for several MVFC teams, I’ve noticed a trend in recent FCS/FBS games. It’s common for the FCS team to stay in the game for the first half, but lose the second half decisively. That means to me that eventually they are slowly getting worn down by slightly faster and stronger opponents. I’d like to hear from MVFC fans who know the few teams that have managed to buck this trend. And not more CUZ WE ARE GREAT comments

I can speak for NDSU in that we have a strong grinding offense and a world class strength and conditioning staff. The Bison have out muscled most of their opponents as of late. The MVFC follows a lot of the same principles, especially on defense.

[KPSUL]

I can speak for NDSU in that we have a strong grinding offense and a world class strength and conditioning staff. The Bison have out muscled most of their opponents as of late. The MVFC follows a lot of the same principles, especially on defense.

After our blow-out loss in the semis in Fargo the UNH team really had little to say, they knew they had met a team that had moved to a higher level then any team they had played in their playoff run. But this season I've heard Coach MacDonnell and several senior players talk about the game candidly. Over and over what they said was how flawless NDSU execution was throughout the game. Nothing particularly unique about speed or strength or about the scheme or play calling, just that every NDSU player seemed to be where he was suppose to be and had the skill to make a play.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

My 2$ on who I think have/are elite teams at the FCS level:

Eastern Kentucky - has been to 4 title games and won 2
Georgia Southern - probably the best FCS program of all time
Marshall - 6 title games
Youngstown State - 4 titles
Montana - 2 titles and 5 runner ups
Appy State - 3 titles

NDSU has just joined the ranks as one of the best


Elite is the best. There are some other good programs as mentioned by some others on here, but these are the elite in the past with the Bison just joining the group.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

True, but that doesn't change the fact that certain Bison posters (coughNoDakcough) feel the need to constantly remind us all how great the NDSU program is and that no would should even bother playing them anymore.


Big deal....it is a message board. If you don't like it then do not respond.

NoDak is a great guy. Most of you guys bashing him have not met him.


It has been pretty interesting to read what some consider "elite" on here. Lots of opinions....good.

[frozennorth]

Building a FCS winning team is not necessarily the same process as building a successful FBS program. The top FCS coaches have built programs, and a style of play, to win against their FCS opponents, not to stay close to mediocre FBS teams. UNH was 5-0 against 1A programs from 2004-2009, but hasn’t won one since. Those teams were not all better than some of the more recent UNH, in fact, this year’s team may be better than all of them. Last’s year’s UNH team went farther in the FCS playoff than any team during the FBS winning streak and lost their FBS match-up. I believe UNH’s success against 1A programs was due their spread, no huddle, fast paced offensive style; their FBS opponents had little or no experience defensing it. In recent years, defensing that type of offense has been routine in college football. So now it comes down to the tangibles, the speed, strength and skill of execution. Virtually any program in FBS has an advantage in the first two. Except for several MVFC teams, I’ve noticed a trend in recent FCS/FBS games. It’s common for the FCS team to stay in the game for the first half, but lose the second half decisively. That means to me that eventually they are slowly getting worn down by slightly faster and stronger opponents. I’d like to hear from MVFC fans who know the few teams that have managed to buck this trend. And not more CUZ WE ARE GREAT commentsI credit the line play. Also for the most part we have limited FBS competition for recruits.

[centennial]

Building a FCS winning team is not necessarily the same process as building a successful FBS program. The top FCS coaches have built programs, and a style of play, to win against their FCS opponents, not to stay close to mediocre FBS teams. UNH was 5-0 against 1A programs from 2004-2009, but hasn’t won one since. Those teams were not all better than some of the more recent UNH, in fact, this year’s team may be better than all of them. Last’s year’s UNH team went farther in the FCS playoff than any team during the FBS winning streak and lost their FBS match-up. I believe UNH’s success against 1A programs was due their spread, no huddle, fast paced offensive style; their FBS opponents had little or no experience defensing it. In recent years, defensing that type of offense has been routine in college football. So now it comes down to the tangibles, the speed, strength and skill of execution. Virtually any program in FBS has an advantage in the first two. Except for several MVFC teams, I’ve noticed a trend in recent FCS/FBS games. It’s common for the FCS team to stay in the game for the first half, but lose the second half decisively. That means to me that eventually they are slowly getting worn down by slightly faster and stronger opponents. I’d like to hear from MVFC fans who know the few teams that have managed to buck this trend. And not more CUZ WE ARE GREAT comments
Outside of what other people have said we get a lot of Midwest talent. MVFC does win some recruiting battles against the MAC. After the Big 10 there aren't many options for the players that don't make it. Also helps that rating agencies don't really look at 2 star type players in the upper Midwest. They are too busy with FL or CA. I also believe that NDSU, SDSU, SD have been solid addtions and have raised the level of play. There really isn't a "bad" team in the conference.

[IBleedYellow]

Building a FCS winning team is not necessarily the same process as building a successful FBS program. The top FCS coaches have built programs, and a style of play, to win against their FCS opponents, not to stay close to mediocre FBS teams. UNH was 5-0 against 1A programs from 2004-2009, but hasn’t won one since. Those teams were not all better than some of the more recent UNH, in fact, this year’s team may be better than all of them. Last’s year’s UNH team went farther in the FCS playoff than any team during the FBS winning streak and lost their FBS match-up. I believe UNH’s success against 1A programs was due their spread, no huddle, fast paced offensive style; their FBS opponents had little or no experience defensing it. In recent years, defensing that type of offense has been routine in college football. So now it comes down to the tangibles, the speed, strength and skill of execution. Virtually any program in FBS has an advantage in the first two. Except for several MVFC teams, I’ve noticed a trend in recent FCS/FBS games. It’s common for the FCS team to stay in the game for the first half, but lose the second half decisively. That means to me that eventually they are slowly getting worn down by slightly faster and stronger opponents. I’d like to hear from MVFC fans who know the few teams that have managed to buck this trend. And not more CUZ WE ARE GREAT comments


Honestly?

Tradition is one. When players come to NDSU, they know that there is a great tradition of winning here, and we as fans and those in the administration expect them to put heart and soul into the program for 5 or 6 years straight. Many players fail to do that, and they leave. But those who stay, they will be Champions. Due to this our program also attracts coaches that want to better themselves, and prove that they are a coach that has what it takes to win national titles.

The next up is our amazing strength and conditioning coach and his staff. Seriously, over the past 5 years I have yet to see an NDSU player cramp up before the opponents. Not even against Kansas State in 100 degree heat. In fact, last year their players were cramping up while our guys were getting ready for what would be the final drive to win the game. I've seen this happen again this year against Iowa State, they are cramping while NDSU players are trotting off the field.

Another: Building both sides of the ball starting from the line. NDSU's offensive line is known as the rams, and those men take great pride in making run gaps open for the many RB's that will play behind them in their career. Tradition of the Rams is something great, and Bisonoline could talk more about it than I ever could give it justice. Our defensive line and the entire code green defense is just another hardnosed tradition filled side of the football that those players take pride in.


Your question was how do you build a program to be successful? I honestly am not sure, but having a great tradition that kids want to be proud to be a part of for sure helps. NDSU's tradition all started with one great coach, and the fans, administrators and players all took over from there.

Now Bison tradition is something that those that are around the program know, and it is something to take pride in and hold with respect.

[penguinpower]

I'm going to vomit. Quit tripping over your dicks.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'm going to vomit. Quit tripping over your dicks.

Aw, would you prefer we did something like pay off our quarterback?

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I'm going to vomit. Quit tripping over your dicks.


YSU is an 'historic' elite program but the only elite about YSU now is choking to get to the playoffs.

xnodxxnodxxnodxxnodxxnodx

[ming01]

YSU is elite? Is Miami still elite? xcoffeex

[penguinpower]

I bleed yellow is preaching to every one about what it takes to have tradition. I Ivy league guys should be able to give you a really good lesson about tradition. Seriously you are going to sit there and tell people about how superior the strength and conditioning program is? Everyone that knows football that the game is won on the line of scrimmage. Your run won't last forever.

Pride comes before the fall.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I bleed yellow is preaching to every one about what it takes to have tradition. I thy leaguess should give you a really good lesson. Seriously you are going to site there and tell people about how superior the strength and conditioning program is?

Pride comes before the fall.



Get a clue.

S & C is part of a FB program. If you do not see or understand that well, then you do not know much about football.

[kalm]

Get a clue.

S & C is part of a FB program. If you do not see or understand that well, then you do not know much about football.

I think his point is that every program treats it as important, just like everything else in IBW's riff. NDSU apparently just does all of those things a little better.