Is Colgate-Holy Cross the most overlooked/unknown rivalry historically in FCS?

[Sader87]

I think it might be. As they approach their 77th meeting this Saturday, this has been a great rivalry for many decades. Both teams battled as two of the bettah programs in the East during the 30's, 40s and 50s. Had a spirited rivalry as the two smallest Eastern Independents in the 60s and 70s. Both were two of the premier FCS programs in the country in the 1980s and have had a great rivalry (mostly going Gate's way) in the PL era.

Never really known as "rivals" per se....Colgate had Syracuse and then Rutgers for many years, HC had BC until 1986....but I think it's one of the great unknown (by many) rivalries in all of FCS football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Is Colgate-Holy Cross the most overlooked/unknown rivalry historically in FCS?

Yes, but . . . prior to 1930? xchinscratchx

[Sader87]

Yes, but . . . prior to 1930? xchinscratchx

Lol....facts are on my side here Bogey....only prior meeting before 1934 was in 1917, a 21-0 Red Raider victory.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lol....facts are on my side here Bogey....only prior meeting before 1934 was in 1917, a 21-0 Red Raider victory.

Just a point of order here . . . I've heard rumors that a certain pair of FCS teams already had played one another sixty-seven times by that point. xrolleyesx

But I doubt you've heard of them.

[Go...gate]

It is a rivalry between two schools with a lot in common.

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Just a point of order here . . . I've heard rumors that a certain pair of FCS teams already had played one another sixty-seven times by that point. xrolleyesx

Twice a year sometimes, in fact.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Twice a year sometimes, in fact.

But rarely three.




EDIT: They played twice on seventeen occasions (principally in the nineteenth century, long before Holy Cross even had a team). So take nine games off the tally and call it an even fifty-eight prior to 1934. Fair?

DOUBLE SECRET EDIT: I'd say the same about Colgate, but that would fail to recognize the Red Raiders 1891 loss to the Laureate Boat Club of Troy, New York. (The Pards beat Navy that year, and Lehigh whipped both Rutgers and Penn State.)

[Go...gate]

It has always been a fine rivalry. The schools have a lot in common.

[Sader87]

Bogey, my point in this thread is that many already know of the Lafayette-Lehigh rivalry but few know of the Colgate-HC rivalry ovah the years.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogey, my point in this thread is that many already know of the Lafayette-Lehigh rivalry but few know of the Colgate-HC rivalry ovah the years.

Point taken. Carry on. :)

[Go...gate]

I want to offer kudos to Sader87 for enduring numerous slings and arrows on the Voyforums Fordham Board, all the while defending our conference. Some hard words from some members of the Ram faithful give the distinct impression that Patriot League Football is not their cup of tea and they would prefer the CAA.

Well done, Sader87.

[Sitting Bull]

Interesting question. To support the case, they do both have a good history and have played often as you point out. On the flip side, not sure the schools actually have that much in common. Do people at HC actually think that much about Colgate, have friends or relatives there or is it a school that people jointly consider applying/attending? Those along with proximity are the kinds of things that help promote a good rivalry.

Still, I think your point is well taken.

I think a possible winner to the question is VMI vs The Citadel.

[Go Green]

Dartmouth-Princeton has always been overshadowed by that other game going on at the same time....

:(

[JMUNJ08]

Interesting question. To support the case, they do both have a good history and have played often as you point out. On the flip side, not sure the schools actually have that much in common. Do people at HC actually think that much about Colgate, have friends or relatives there or is it a school that people jointly consider applying/attending? Those along with proximity are the kinds of things that help promote a good rivalry.

Still, I think your point is well taken.

I think a possible winner to the question is VMI vs The Citadel.

If only VMI and The Citadel were relevant in football while most of us have been alive... but agreed

[carney2]

Good point and case made, 87. My question is

Why is this game being played on the first weekend in October?!!!!!

Why isn't it scheduled for "rivalry weekend" on November 23rd? Does anyone in the Patriot League home office give this kind of thing any thought? Same thing with basketball when the natural rivals are scheduled willy-nilly all over the schedule instead of at the very end of each half of the season.

Wanted: Brain transplants in Center Valley, PA.

[CrusaderBob]

I have said it before, the rivalry is unknown in part because the Patriot League, the schools, both(?) have done zero to foster it. I've posted the long version of this before, but just scheduling the last game of every sport against each other will foster a rivalry, because there will always be high emotions in a final game, no matter what the records are. Instead, since 1989, in football alone, the final game of the season (26 seasons including this year) has been against:

Colgate 11 times
Fordham 6
Georgetown 5
Bucknell 4

Scheduling would help.

[Ivytalk]

Dartmouth-Princeton has always been overshadowed by that other game going on at the same time....

:(

You rang?:D

[bulldog10jw]

Dartmouth-Princeton has always been overshadowed by that other game going on at the same time....

:(

Dartmouth-Princeton is overshadowed because Princeton cares more about beating Yale and Dartmouth cares more about beating Harvard than either of them care about beating the other.

Dartmouth-Princeton also hasn't even been the permanent final game for each of them historically.

[Twentysix]

Just a point of order here . . . I've heard rumors that a certain pair of FCS teams already had played one another sixty-seven times by that point. xrolleyesx

But I doubt you've heard of them.

NDSU and UND? He probably hasn't. (I keed I keed, we had only played 40 times by 1934)

[ColgateTD]

Dartmouth-Princeton has always been overshadowed by that other game going on at the same time....

:(

Back in the day Dartmouth-Princeton was always the last game, and one with great anticipation in the IL. I was there at Palmer Stadium for most of them, tailgating and watching Dick Kazmier shred the Big Green in the 50's. After I "matured" I decided to matriculate at a better institution :)

The 'Gate-HC game should be scheduled as the last of the season, as most PL followers know. Why the league doesn't wake up to this is beyond me. It's been a great rivalry, no matter what the PA contingent thinks.

[ElCid]

If only VMI and The Citadel were relevant in football while most of us have been alive... but agreed

I guess you are pretty young.xsmhx I do like the rivalry between us and VMI. It was pretty even up until the 80s and then when we had our good run in the 90s, which also happen to coincide with a decline in VMI quality and we have dominated since then. I am hoping they can improve overall. Makes for a more satisfying victory.

[Go Green]

Dartmouth-Princeton is overshadowed because Princeton cares more about beating Yale and Dartmouth cares more about beating Harvard than either of them care about beating the other.

Dartmouth-Princeton also hasn't even been the permanent final game for each of them historically.

Dartmouth-Princeton is so heated, that there is not one, but TWO trophies awarded to the winner of the game.

The Sawhorse Dollar and the Governor's Trophy. Check them out:

http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=11600&ATCLID=205747578

[bulldog10jw]

Dartmouth-Princeton is so heated, that there is not one, but TWO trophies awarded to the winner of the game.

The Sawhorse Dollar and the Governor's Trophy. Check them out:

http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=11600&ATCLID=205747578

I'm not saying it is not a great rivalry, because it is. So are Yale-Princeton, Yale-Brown, and Dartmouth-Harvard.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Colgate/HC has always had the potential of developing into a good rivalry.

What is has going for it:

* To some extent, geography

* Patriot League championship implications, at times (one year Colgate stole the championship from Dom Randolph on the last weekend of the year)

* They both were academically-oriented "scholarship" teams at the same time and went to need-based aid model at same time in PL, so their football arcs are similar


Where it lacks rivalry:

* For the most part, Colgate and HC have not been great together at the same time. in the 30s they were both nationally-ranked powers in the East, in the 50s, they alternated between struggling and good, but rarely at the same time. The great 80s HC teams coincided with so-so Colgate teams, and the Colgate championship teams in the 90s and 2000s were rarely concerned with HC.

* Colgate has always been non-denominational to my knowledge, while HC is Catholic, of course

* Both had huge sectional rivals, Syracuse and BC, until the 1980s, that dwarfed the others

* They don't share or represent a state, something that is somewhat overlooked. Colgate/Cornell and Colgate/Syracuse to some extent are the "championships of upstate NY", and HC/BC was at one point a "championship of Massachusetts". "Champion of the Northeast section of the Patriot League" doesn't quite have the same ring.

[Sader87]

Good breakdown LFN. One quibble I would have is that HC and Colgate were both very good in their infancy in 1-AA. The games between them in the early/mid 1980s often pitted two teams in the Top 20, if not the Top 5 on occasion.

I agree with you on "representation"....I don't think many people outside of the HC and Gate alumni care too much about this game which makes it sort of hard to get much hype behind this game/proto-rivalry.

Again, I'm not making an argument here that it is a "great rivalry" in FCS football .....bettah than others i.e. VMI-Citadel, Dartmouth-Princeton etc. Just that I would bet the vast majority of FCS fans today know very little of how much of a rivalry/big-game it's been for about 80 years now.

[Go Green]

I'm not saying it is not a great rivalry, because it is. So are Yale-Princeton, Yale-Brown, and Dartmouth-Harvard.

I never really thought Y-B to be a big rivalry. Other than the mid-to-late 1970s and the late 1990s, it was pretty rare for both of them to be the league's elite.

To their credit, Yale and Brown played for the title more often than Penn v. Princeton. To me, P-P is one of the most overrated "rivalries" out there. It's a great basketball rivalry (indeed, one of the all-time best), but there's very little history of the Ps being good at the same time in football.

[bulldog10jw]

I never really thought Y-B to be a big rivalry. Other than the mid-to-late 1970s and the late 1990s, it was pretty rare for both of them to be the league's elite.


It's a proximity thing.

[jimbo65]

If only VMI and The Citadel were relevant in football while most of us have been alive... but agreed

Do you think VMI or Citadel would have any interest in playing Fordham. Don't know if Fordham would, but Fordham should.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Do you think VMI or Citadel would have any interest in playing Fordham. Don't know if Fordham would, but Fordham should.


VMI played Bucknell this season so why wouldn't they play Fordham?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colgate has always been non-denominational to my knowledge, while HC is Catholic, of course.

Interestingly enough, Colgate was founded as the "Baptist Education Society" and initially was a theological seminary. William Colgate was a trustee of the Baptist Education Society.

"The College in the English Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations," now known as Brown University, also began as a Baptist institution - hence the historic relationship between Colgate and Brown.

[bulldog10jw]

Interestingly enough, Colgate was founded as the "Baptist Education Society" and initially was a theological seminary. William Colgate was a trustee of the Baptist Education Society.


You mean it really wasn't named after the toothpaste? :D

[Go...gate]

Dartmouth-Princeton has always been overshadowed by that other game going on at the same time....

:(

You mean Lafayette - Lehigh?

[Go...gate]

Interestingly enough, Colgate was founded as the "Baptist Education Society" and initially was a theological seminary. William Colgate was a trustee of the Baptist Education Society.

"The College in the English Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations," now known as Brown University, also began as a Baptist institution - hence the historic relationship between Colgate and Brown.

That is correct and the schools share a great deal in common.

[PAllen]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/SeamusLight/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bogus Megapardus http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/SeamusLight/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=2152925#post2152925)
Interestingly enough, Colgate was founded as the "Baptist Education Society" and initially was a theological seminary. William Colgate was a trustee of the Baptist Education Society.

"The College in the English Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations," now known as Brown University, also began as a Baptist institution - hence the historic relationship between Colgate and Brown.

That is correct and the schools share a great deal in common.

You've got it! This is the season ending rivalry game that we've all been waiting for. Who needs Yale-Harvard or Lehigh-Lafayette? Nothing says intense, long standing, throw out the records the rest of the season doesn't matter, like Colgate-Brown! xcoolx

[Sader87]

Actually Brown-Colgate was a big game (sorta) at one time. used to be played annually on Thanksgiving I believe.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As I understand it, the Baptists started Brown, which in turn helped established Colgate, which in turn helped establish Bucknell. None retains formal Baptist affiliation today.

Lafayette was started by Presbyterians as a military/civil engineering college. A religious schism at Lafayette led to the creation of Lehigh - also as an engineering college but associated instead with the Episcopal Church. Lehigh long ago dropped its Episcopal affiliation but Lafayette today remains affiliated with the Presbyterian Church.

Fordham, Holy Cross, Georgetown and Loyola are affiliated with the Catholic Church.

Boston University began life as the "Methodist General Biblical Institute" and it continues to maintain its Methodist affiliation today. American University likewise remains affiliated with the United Methodist Church.

The U.S. Naval and U.S. Military Academies are not affiliated with any religion but services related to several religions regularly are performed in on-campus chapels and interfaith centers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A religious schism at Lafayette led to the creation of Lehigh - also as an engineering college but associated instead with the Episcopal Church.

That's the popular theory, Ario Pardee vs. Asa Packer, but I found no other evidence to support this theory. The data seems to show that Asa was always going to open Lehigh, Lafayette nonwithstanding, with Episcopal associaton, because he was Episcopal. It is possible, but also unproven, that Ario was trying to create an engineering wing in order to stop Lehigh from ever being opened.

Ario Pardee and Asa Packer, incidentally, were tight business associates and both got rich from the other, so I tend to discount both theories. It's more likely Asa wanted to open his own Episcopal university (and also, to offer a free education to all qualified students), while Ario was simply interested in getting engineering into Lafayette, which was immensely lucrative for everyone involved.

[Gate83]

I dunno that I'd call it a rivalry... If you asked the casual Gate fan I think (as was pointed out earlier) they'd be more interested in spanking Cornell versus getting worked up about the Cross. Moving the game to the end of the year would certainly help to develop a true rivalry. That said, Saturday should be very interesting in terms of the first matchup for both squads w/ two years of schollies... thinking the rain in the forecast should be good for our ground & pound attack. I hear it's peak leaf season in Hamilton, all you Crusaders should make the trip north!

[Bogus Megapardus]

you Crusaders should make the trip north!

Methinks they'll make you pay dearly for that one, Gate83 . . . xcoffeex

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Interestingly enough, Colgate was founded as the "Baptist Education Society" and initially was a theological seminary. William Colgate was a trustee of the Baptist Education Society.

"The College in the English Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations," now known as Brown University, also began as a Baptist institution - hence the historic relationship between Colgate and Brown.

Baptists from Colgate went to the wilds of central Pennsylvania to found the Seminary at Lewisburg in 1846.

[Gate83]

Methinks they'll make you pay dearly for that one, Gate83 . . . xcoffeex

OK, so mainly west... but also north. New England is such a cramped little place that much of it is south of Albany. Either way, let it rain!

[Go...gate]

Baptists from Colgate went to the wilds of central Pennsylvania to found the Seminary at Lewisburg in 1846.

Yep. And some of the "13 men with 13 dollars and 13 prayers" were from Brown and had helped get that school on its feet. It is a great story!

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OK, so mainly west... but also north. New England is such a cramped little place that much of it is south of Albany. Either way, let it rain!

Hell, it's October. Time for SNOW!!!