PATSY Ratings - Georgetown's Class of 2018

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2014/05/patsy-ratings-georgetowns-class-of-2018.html

Both Georgetown fans will rejoice at the news that the Patsy Ratings have finally been calculated.

[carney2]

The final standings for 2014:

1. LEHIGH 79
2. LAFAYETTE 77
3. COLGATE 76
3. HOLY CROSS 76
5. FORDHAM 63
6. GEORGETOWN 43
7. BUCKNELL 39

Reiterating: 4 in the 70s plus 1 in the 60s with a boat load of transfers. A good year for the Patriot League. Thank you, LFN, for a job well done.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The first four teams are virtually tied. Is this a Patsy formula reaction to scholarships?

[RichH2]

Schollies clearly alter Patsy parameters.IMOneeda few more classes to see if ratings can be adapted and how

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The first four teams are virtually tied. Is this a Patsy formula reaction to scholarships?

Oddly enough, they are all about the same rating for different reasons.

Colgate - Largest number of ** recruits
Holy Cross - Meeting of every broadcast need extremely well
Lafayette - Huge class size plus broad quality
Lehigh - Speed to burn

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's a thought experiment (forgive me if I'm pulling from the Lafayette/New Hampshire thread, or the Patriot League 2015 thread, or... :) ). If Georgetown had to come up with an 11 game schedule with like-minded institutions in terms of academics and football funding, regardless of conference, who would they play, and how close would they be to the District?

It's a tough consideration.

Harvard/Yale/Princeton - academically yes, athletically no
Wagner/Monmouth - academically no, athletically yes
Colgate/Lehigh - athletically no?
Richmond/Villanova/William and Mary - athletically no

My list would be something like this:

Holy Cross
Davidson
Dayton
Columbia
Cornell
Bucknell

After this, though, I get stuck. Another religious institution (Fordham/Villanova)? Another Big East school (Butler)? Duquesne? Marist? Wagner? Maybe VMI?

Note how far away these schools are from DC.

[RichH2]

Here's a thought experiment (forgive me if I'm pulling from the Lafayette/New Hampshire thread, or the Patriot League 2015 thread, or... :) ). If Georgetown had to come up with an 11 game schedule with like-minded institutions in terms of academics and football funding, regardless of conference, who would they play, and how close would they be to the District?

It's a tough consideration.

Harvard/Yale/Princeton - academically yes, athletically no
Wagner/Monmouth - academically no, athletically yes
Colgate/Lehigh - athletically no?
Richmond/Villanova/William and Mary - athletically no

My list would be something like this:

Holy Cross
Davidson
Dayton
Columbia
Cornell
Bucknell

After this, though, I get stuck. Another religious institution (Fordham/Villanova)? Another Big East school (Butler)? Duquesne? Marist? Wagner? Maybe VMI?

Note how far away these schools are from DC.
Not a solvable situation for GU . I do not see how they can put together a schedule that they would be competitive with. Assuming they dont schedule bottom of PFL. Absent money,whether need or merit , there are very few teams in the NE that could fit the bill. Luck may be Hoyas'sole future ally. GU not ltd in # of recruits. The right number of good players in the right spots. A hard fence to straddle.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To clarify I don't wish for Georgetown to leave the PL, just that it makes sense for them to remain, with or without scholarships.

[carney2]

Talk of the Hoyas leaving the Patriot League is gaining traction and we all understand why. One thing that has not been mentioned with anything more than superficial commentary is scheduling. If they were to join another league they would be OK. If they went independent as some suggest, they would be in deep doo-doo. It is very difficult for an independent to schedule 11 games. October and November would be particularly dicey when everyone is fulfilling their league commitments.

[van]

Does the G-town admin even care if they are competitive in football?

Agree with Carney, scheduling as an independent very challenging, although Monmouth has cobbled together a pretty decent schedule for 2014. As to other leagues, it would seem that only the PFL or NE offer a competitive opportunity for Hoyas. Would the PFL even be interested in another football member? And if financial considerations drive Hoyas, how do the long road trips of PFL sit with them? NE conference would seem to be best option, but given my initial question, do they prefer being competitive against the likes of Bob Morris and CCSU rather than affiliate with PL schools?

[Model Citizen]

Would the PFL even be interested in another football member?

Absolutely. Following Mercer's quick departure, the league would like to return to 12 teams.

Winthrop University, a state school in South Carolina, is on the clock. Their president has promised a go/no go decision on non-scholarship football this summer (Google for details).

As for Georgetown, they might be a fit eventually. Inevitably, the PFL will lose a member or two in the next few years. If Georgetown and the PFL could compromise on what is and is not permissible financial aid, it could happen. Georgetown has already played Butler (now in the Big East), Davidson, San Diego, and Marist. Dayton is on the schedule this year.

That's roughly half the PFL.

MVFC commissioner Viverito seems to have an issue with the PFL's academic merit aid, and I expect some clarification this year on the league's aid policies. That story probably deserves its own thread.

[Go...gate]

To clarify I don't wish for Georgetown to leave the PL, just that it makes sense for them to remain, with or without scholarships.

I agree.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Georgetown will never join the PFL, so let's not waste our time there.

I think it is a reasonable question to ask whether Georgetown could put together the type of schedule they'd like as an independent. But I think it makes the most sense if you can get the games. That way you can excise some of the PL schools that aren't exactly peer institutions academically and are becoming much stronger athletically with the implementation of scholarships. Plus, going independent would help Georgetown solve a piece of the scholarship problem by no longer adhering to the PL's academic index.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Georgetown will never join the PFL, so let's not waste our time there.

I don't see why not. Not that I want Georgetown to leave but the PFL makes the most sense by far.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't see why not. Not that I want Georgetown to leave but the PFL makes the most sense by far.

It makes the least sense, for three reasons:

1. The 1993 Georgetown football initiative (aka the "Benson Plan"), which is many respects is still the archetype of the program, stresses the need to play peer institutions for fan interest and long term support. In a very general sense, the Patriot teams are peer institutions, but none of the Pioneer teams fit this model. None. A full PFL schedule and the concentration of eight conference games within the last nine weeks of the season offers almost no opportunity for games against Ivy teams with any regularity and would implode whatever fan and donor support exists at present.

2. Georgetown offers no financial aid on merit which is available at other PFL schools as an incentive to a non-scholarship offer of admission. These nine schools would not (and frankly, should not) cede this admissions tool versus a school which is significantly larger than any of them and recruits a student that is significantly different from their admissions pool. Concurrently, the PFL does not accept the packaging of aid which Georgetown employs in limited means to compete against Ivy schools. Georgetown would not (and frankly, should not) cede this process just to be a good sport to the admissions at Jacksonville and Drake.

3. At least a third of Georgetown's meager attendance is coming from road crowds. The idea that anyone more than friends and family from Pioneer schools would travel to Washington is a clear and present revenue shortfall, and local interest would be even less.

The Pioneer is less about a conference than it is a scheduling arrangement for disparate teams that cannot fill a schedule on its own, an arrangement which Georgetown neither needs nor wants.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The 1993 Georgetown football initiative (aka the "Benson Plan"), which is many respects is still the archetype of the program, stresses the need to play peer institutions for fan interest and long term support. In a very general sense, the Patriot teams are peer institutions, but none of the Pioneer teams fit this model. None. A full PFL schedule and the concentration of eight conference games within the last nine weeks of the season offers almost no opportunity for games against Ivy teams with any regularity and would implode whatever fan and donor support exists at present.

I agree with you broadly here, but it's worth mentioning that Davidson (academics) and Butler (Big East member) do at least have some linkage to Georgetown institutionally, however remote. But the point is that it's not like that football interest would be making regular trips to DC.

Aside from Fordham, Villanova, for that matter, would be the school with the biggest potential for a football rivalry, ironically, with both the Big East link and the academic chops. However, the Wildcats (and Rams) have taken a different path than the Hoyas.

It's also worth mentioning: despite the fairly strong success over the past years, Villanova's and Fordham's travel support isn't nearly strong enough to make this "a thing", either.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I agree with you broadly here, but it's worth mentioning that Davidson (academics) and Butler (Big East member) do at least have some linkage to Georgetown institutionally, however remote. But the point is that it's not like that football interest would be making regular trips to DC.

Aside from Fordham, Villanova, for that matter, would be the school with the biggest potential for a football rivalry, ironically, with both the Big East link and the academic chops. However, the Wildcats (and Rams) have taken a different path than the Hoyas.

It's also worth mentioning: despite the fairly strong success over the past years, Villanova's and Fordham's travel support isn't nearly strong enough to make this "a thing", either.

Also Marist is as "traditional" of a Georgetown football rival as you will get these days. Both were founders of the old MAAC football conference and they continue to play one another.

[Model Citizen]

If Georgetown wants to continue football outside the Patriot League, this would be 90 percent of the problem:


Georgetown offers no financial aid on merit which is available at other PFL schools as an incentive to a non-scholarship offer of admission. These nine schools would not (and frankly, should not) cede this admissions tool versus a school which is significantly larger than any of them and recruits a student that is significantly different from their admissions pool. Concurrently, the PFL does not accept the packaging of aid which Georgetown employs in limited means to compete against Ivy schools. Georgetown would not (and frankly, should not) cede this process just to be a good sport to the admissions at Jacksonville and Drake.

The solution, in my opinion, would be for the PFL to allow aid packaging. At least one PFL school has already been doing this. A reassessment of league rules is inevitable.

I don't see the PFL denying academic merit aid to qualified people, simply because they're football players. Georgetown would have to live with that--maybe increase its packaged aid to keep up?

The fact that the PFL doesn't have an AI would be somewhat of a compensating factor for Georgetown.

One way or another, the Hoyas will have to step up financial aid. That's the case whether they're playing Jacksonville, Harvard, or both.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It makes the least sense, for three reasons:

1. The 1993 Georgetown football initiative (aka the "Benson Plan"), which is many respects is still the archetype of the program, stresses the need to play peer institutions for fan interest and long term support. In a very general sense, the Patriot teams are peer institutions, but none of the Pioneer teams fit this model. None. A full PFL schedule and the concentration of eight conference games within the last nine weeks of the season offers almost no opportunity for games against Ivy teams with any regularity and would implode whatever fan and donor support exists at present.

2. Georgetown offers no financial aid on merit which is available at other PFL schools as an incentive to a non-scholarship offer of admission. These nine schools would not (and frankly, should not) cede this admissions tool versus a school which is significantly larger than any of them and recruits a student that is significantly different from their admissions pool. Concurrently, the PFL does not accept the packaging of aid which Georgetown employs in limited means to compete against Ivy schools. Georgetown would not (and frankly, should not) cede this process just to be a good sport to the admissions at Jacksonville and Drake.

3. At least a third of Georgetown's meager attendance is coming from road crowds. The idea that anyone more than friends and family from Pioneer schools would travel to Washington is a clear and present revenue shortfall, and local interest would be even less.

The Pioneer is less about a conference than it is a scheduling arrangement for disparate teams that cannot fill a schedule on its own, an arrangement which Georgetown neither needs nor wants.

The "ideal" schedule for Hoya fans, I suppose, would be eight Ivies plus Holy Cross, Marist and Davidson. That would require playing as an independent and somehow persuading each of the eight Ivies to schedule Georgetown right in the thick of the Ivy race in November and December. And it would cause Robin Harris fits. It's just unrealistic to imagine Ivy Central wanting to accommodate "de facto" Georgetown participation in the Ivy circulation year in and year out. There's simply no benefit to Ivy having an "odd" number of teams, going outside the strict, unchanging Ivy membership protocol, or giving up OOC scheduling flexibility especially when they play only 10 games.

Also, regardless of whether or not the PL schools are admission data/demographic "peers" to the IL (and I maintain that most are), there's really no question that PL teams are athletic competition "peers" to, and traditional opponents of, the IL - much more so than Georgetown. Were the Hoyas to depart the PL, the remaining Patriot League schools would work against, rather than with, Georgetown to maintain their slate of Ivy opponents. For a variety of reasons the other PL schools probably would win a competition against Georgetown to schedule, say, Penn or Princeton or Harvard on a given weekend.

It just seems to me that an independent schedule - even if it included, say, four Ivies - would leave Hoya fans even more unsatisfied. It is true that such a schedule would be successful in excluding "the Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world" but the remaining opponents likely would be even less satisfactory than those two. In the PFL, on the other hand, Georgetown still could schedule three Ivies plus it could be assured of more competitive games and probably a winning record.

All of which brings the argument back to remaining in the PL. Yes, the Hoyas would still play the same number of "unsavory" games against the "Pennsylvania Schools" but the opponents that would replace those schools on an independent schedule likely would be "one-offs" against institutions even less appealing to Georgetown fans than the "non-peer" PL schools.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Also, regardless of whether or not the PL schools are admission data/demographic "peers" to the IL (and I maintain that most are)

You can keep maintaining that but it's pure delusion. The inflated sense of academic prowess that Lafayette and Lehigh grads have on this board is astounding.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You can keep maintaining that but it's pure delusion. The inflated sense of academic prowess that Lafayette and Lehigh grads have on this board is astounding.

I'd have chosen an objectively more apt adjective. "Astounding" might well reflect your idiosyncratic point of view but "arguable" or "debatable" would have been a better choice overall, don't you think?

Just as an aside, to all those prowessed GTown grads still waiting for that first "paid" intern position on a political campaign - call me after the election cycle. Maybe I can fit you into a real job. Entry level of course, and you'll be working for PL alums. But I do provide benefits.

[HoyaMetanoia]

I'd have chosen an objectively more apt adjective. "Astounding" might well reflect your idiosyncratic point of view but "arguable" or "debatable" would have been a better choice overall, don't you think?

Just as an aside, to all those prowessed GTown grads still waiting for that first "paid" intern position on a political campaign - call me after the election cycle. Maybe I can fit you into a real job. Entry level of course, and you'll be working for PL alums. But I do provide benefits.

Well that was a fun, fictional anecdote to make you feel better about your education. But, again, you still haven't found any data to support your original assertion that many students choose Lehigh/Lafayette over an Ivy.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well that was a fun, fictional anecdote to make you feel better about your education. But, again, you still haven't found any data to support your original assertion that many students choose Lehigh/Lafayette over an Ivy.

You're right. Georgetown doesn't belong in the Patriot League. You're much better than that and you're entitled to more.

You should leave.

[citdog]

I'd have chosen an objectively more apt adjective. "Astounding" might well reflect your idiosyncratic point of view but "arguable" or "debatable" would have been a better choice overall, don't you think?

Just as an aside, to all those prowessed GTown grads still waiting for that first "paid" intern position on a political campaign - call me after the election cycle. Maybe I can fit you into a real job. Entry level of course, and you'll be working for PL alums. But I do provide benefits.


http://4chanmemeandmotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/bitch_slap_-_get_this_satisfaction_look_on_your_face_today.jpg

[Go...gate]

Georgetown will never join the PFL, so let's not waste our time there.

I think it is a reasonable question to ask whether Georgetown could put together the type of schedule they'd like as an independent. But I think it makes the most sense if you can get the games. That way you can excise some of the PL schools that aren't exactly peer institutions academically and are becoming much stronger athletically with the implementation of scholarships. Plus, going independent would help Georgetown solve a piece of the scholarship problem by no longer adhering to the PL's academic index.

And which schools would these be, exactly?

[Bogus Megapardus]

And which schools would these be, exactly?

I don't think the comparison is fair. None of the other PL schools offer bachelor's degrees in Unpaid Intern, Talentless Political Hack or Self-Serving Media Whore. So Georgetown truly is without peer. They deserve more, they've earned it, they're entitled to it - the Hoyas should have a League of Their Own.

Except there's no crying in football, which presents a major impediment for those guys.

[DFW HOYA]

Calm down, everyone.

The bottom line is this: the Patriot League remains a good home for Georgetown football but it doesn't do any good for anyone if the Hoyas become a completely noncompetitive program as a result. As late as 2009, Georgetown played a pair of full-scholarship teams (Richmond, Old Dominion) and lost by a combined score of 80-20 (combined score after 1st quarter: 38-0).

Three ways to improve: you can recruit better (the AI issue), you can sign better (the scholarship issue), or you can develop better (facilities, training and coaching). But the latter isn't a substitute for the first two.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Calm down, everyone.

Aww . . . must we? I was going to stomp my feet until Metanoia repents. ;)

[ngineer]

I don't think the comparison is fair. None of the other PL schools offer bachelor's degrees in Unpaid Intern, Talentless Political Hack or Self-Serving Media Whore. So Georgetown truly is without peer. They deserve more, they've earned it, they're entitled to it - the Hoyas should have a League of Their Own.

Except there's no crying in football, which presents a major impediment for those guys.

That way they can do what they do best....play with themselves?? I used that attack on a few 'pard friends 15 years ago when LC was considering DIII. I sent out a fake memo from Herr Rothkopf that said the BOT had chosen to create its own and new Division IV, for the same reason. I received a withering assault of faxes (note the time frame) with a lot of four letter words my poor secretary had never seen before.

[ngineer]

It makes the least sense, for three reasons:

1. The 1993 Georgetown football initiative (aka the "Benson Plan"), which is many respects is still the archetype of the program, stresses the need to play peer institutions for fan interest and long term support. In a very general sense, the Patriot teams are peer institutions, but none of the Pioneer teams fit this model. None. A full PFL schedule and the concentration of eight conference games within the last nine weeks of the season offers almost no opportunity for games against Ivy teams with any regularity and would implode whatever fan and donor support exists at present.

2. Georgetown offers no financial aid on merit which is available at other PFL schools as an incentive to a non-scholarship offer of admission. These nine schools would not (and frankly, should not) cede this admissions tool versus a school which is significantly larger than any of them and recruits a student that is significantly different from their admissions pool. Concurrently, the PFL does not accept the packaging of aid which Georgetown employs in limited means to compete against Ivy schools. Georgetown would not (and frankly, should not) cede this process just to be a good sport to the admissions at Jacksonville and Drake.

3. At least a third of Georgetown's meager attendance is coming from road crowds. The idea that anyone more than friends and family from Pioneer schools would travel to Washington is a clear and present revenue shortfall, and local interest would be even less.

The Pioneer is less about a conference than it is a scheduling arrangement for disparate teams that cannot fill a schedule on its own, an arrangement which Georgetown neither needs nor wants.

I also shake my head about the cost of travelling issue. Amazing.

[Bogus Megapardus]

That way they can do what they do best....play with themselves?? I used that attack on a few 'pard friends 15 years ago when LC was considering DIII. I sent out a fake memo from Herr Rothkopf that said the BOT had chosen to create its own and new Division IV, for the same reason. I received a withering assault of faxes (note the time frame) with a lot of four letter words my poor secretary had never seen before.

It seems to me that we deserved it.

[DFW HOYA]

Raising the name of Art Rothkopf puts a different spin on these discussions.

So if it was Rothkopf that voted "no" and the other six went to 60 scholarships, what would you be saying then about Lafayette's near term prospects?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Raising the name of Art Rothkopf puts a different spin on these discussions.

So if it was Rothkopf that voted "no" and the other six went to 60 scholarships, what would you be saying then about Lafayette's near term prospects?

We'd be looking at Ursinus, F&M and Gettysburg. Does not paint a pretty picture.

[HoyaMetanoia]

And which schools would these be, exactly?

Most of them. Look at the admissions data and USNWR rankings.

The only peers in the PL are Holy Cross and Fordham, and that's because of their religious affiliations.

[Gater]

USNWR has Georgetown listed as tied for the #20 University. Colgate is tied for the #20 Liberal Arts College. Colgate is a Dartmouth safety school. Is Georgetown one of Princeton's? Don't know. But at #20, but it's probably someones. Georgetown beat Colgate by six in basketball this year. Seems like it outscores Colgate as a university by about six. Colgate thinks they have a shot to beat Georgetown. Georgetown is thinking they can take down USNWR's #7 Duke. Georgetown is a great school. It's the best in the Patriot League. But I think people have a tendency to look at schools better than their own as peer schools and schools worse than their own as, well, beneath them. That being said, Bucknell is horrible. Just kidding.

[JoltinJoe]

Ask a Jesuit which is the better school: Fordham or Georgetown. You'd probably be surprised with the answer.

[Gater]

Also, before any lurking M.I.T. fans freak out on this board, I should clarify my post by saying Georgetown is the highest ranked of the Patriot League teams playing football, but it is the second highest ranked affiliate member of the Patriot League (after M.I.T.) and the 4th most selective of all of the Patriot League schools (after Army, Navy, and M.I.T.). Those schools all accept fewer than 9% of their applicants. Georgetown will let most anybody in (with 17% accepted).

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

USNWR has Georgetown listed as tied for the #20 University. Colgate is tied for the #20 Liberal Arts College. Colgate is a Dartmouth safety school. Is Georgetown one of Princeton's? Don't know. But at #20, but it's probably someones. Georgetown beat Colgate by six in basketball this year. Seems like it outscores Colgate as a university by about six. Colgate thinks they have a shot to beat Georgetown. Georgetown is thinking they can take down USNWR's #7 Duke. Georgetown is a great school. It's the best in the Patriot League. But I think people have a tendency to look at schools better than their own as peer schools and schools worse than their own as, well, beneath them. That being said, Bucknell is horrible. Just kidding.

The only school I could see Georgetown being a safety school for is Notre Dame. I'm not religious yet I would have went to ND in a second.

[Sader87]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuFCaIAnETkGTown and Fordham's affiliation to the PL in film mode:

[DFW HOYA]

Ask a Jesuit which is the better school: Fordham or Georgetown. You'd probably be surprised with the answer.

Maybe a generation ago this was even a question, but not now.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ask a Jesuit which is the better school: Fordham or Georgetown. You'd probably be surprised with the answer.

He might answer the question with, "Holy Cross." xrolleyesx

[RichH2]

Kinda fun watching a "mine is bigger than yours" spat that does not involve LU and LC :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Kinda fun watching a "mine is bigger than yours" spat that does not involve LU and LC :)

Tsk. They're rank amateurs.

[RichH2]

That they are Bogie, but we can watch the younguns grow and learn.

[Sader87]

That they are Bogie, but we can watch the younguns grow and learn.

Holy Cross and Boston College had a football rivalry as nearly as old as the fabled L-L game....it was played on a much grander/higher stage than that annual tilt between the two NE Pennsylvania schools too I might add.

[RichH2]

87
Not doubting Cross ability,but every rivalry has its own buttons.

[Pard4Life]

Just think, we could have been playing at Dickinson this November 22nd! Think how many alumni would have to make the trip to beautiful Carlisle.

[Bogus Megapardus]

it was played on a much grander/higher stage than that annual tilt between the two NE Pennsylvania schools.

We're playing at Yankee Stadium in front of 50,000 on national broadcast television. At which higher/grander stage will you be playing? xwhistlex

[JoltinJoe]

Maybe a generation ago this was even a question, but not now.

Again, you'd be surprised what Jesuits would say. It may be harder to get into Georgetown, but many of the best Jesuits teach at Fordham. Fordham has many academic departments which are deeper, stronger, and more challenging than the same department of Georgetown.

And the grade inflation at Georgetown rubs many Jesuits the wrong way. One of my college professors, a Jesuit who went on to become president of two Jesuit colleges, told me a few years back that it was unfortunate that Georgetown did not challenge its talented student body enough.

Georgetown was fortunate in timing. It received a lot of attention as a premier school immediately before our national fascination with college rankings, which really began in the early to mid 1980s. Fordham, on the other hand, was fighting negative perceptions of the Bronx during the late 1960s and 1970s, which caused a measurable drop in its admission stats in the years immediately before everyone started measuring a school's quality (via the college rankings) by the SAT scores of the admitted students. So Fordham's diminished scores of the late 70s and early 80s, rather than its historical admission statistics, became what people perceived, even though the quality of the education had not really changed. Similarly, Georgetown's heightened admission statistics became people's perception of Georgetown.

Fordham, though, continues to recover as perceptions of its Bronx neighborhood change. Every class is increasingly more competitive. I think within the next 10-15 years, Fordham will recapture the public's perception of its pre-1970 stature. And all through this time, the quality of a Fordham education really hasn't changed. Fordham still maintains quality academic programs and a challenging academic environment (no easy As).

Georgetown and Fordham also historically served a different demographic. Georgetown was a school where wealthier Catholics sent their students. Fordham was a working class school. When I was in college, the Yale Guide to College referred to Fordham as "the premier college for the Catholic working class." Even when I attended, there were many local Bronx students who came from very deprived backgrounds, and who were at Fordham because their mother or father worked for physical plant -- thus getting a free education for their children. My junior year, the mother of the one of the top senior graduates in the English Literature Department (my major) was a maid who cleaned our dorm every day.

[JoltinJoe]

He might answer the question with, "Holy Cross." xrolleyesx

Some might. Holy Cross is an exceptional liberal arts college. Fordham is a comprehensive university. Many Holy Cross undergraduates prefer the smaller environment and focus on the liberal arts. Holy Cross and Fordham, while tied by the Jesuit connection, were really founded for two different reasons.

[Sader87]

We're playing at Yankee Stadium in front of 50,000 on national broadcast television. At which higher/grander stage will you be playing? xwhistlex

We will probably be playing before a handful of friends and family members at MSF that same weekend.

Point being, HC used to play before similarly sized crowds that L-L will have at Yankee Stadium this year against BC in the 30s, 40s and 50s at Fenway Park and Braves Field and then later on at Schaefer/Sullivan Stadium in the 70s and 80s. It's not like we are neophytes when it comes to having a football rival....we have just been without one since we joined the Patriot League.

[Pard4Life]

I somewhat agree with the Fordham v. Georgetown argument. For the most part, I perceive Georgetown as an 'image' school... though despite its very selective standards, the student body and academic rigor are not that impressive. Students like it because it conveys the haughty, preppy image that they desire or aspire to be. That said, Georgetown has an outstanding International Relations department, but suffers from 'Beltway' mentality. I don't think Fordham has Georgetown beat in this academic area. But, I generally have very positive image of Fordham's quality. The only negative in my mind about Fordham is that it is not national... i.e. mainly regional students... maybe I'm wrong... anyone with a concentration of Staten Islanders gets demerits in my book (Binghamton) :D

[JoltinJoe]

[QUOTE=Pard4Life;2112172 The only negative in my mind about Fordham is that it is not national... i.e. mainly regional students... maybe I'm wrong... anyone with a concentration of Staten Islanders gets demerits in my book (Binghamton) :D[/QUOTE]

Fordham is more "national" than other Jesuit universities, but not as "national" as Georgetown.

The Jesuits founded universities in many of America's largest city, since most of their students were Catholics coming from modest/immigrant backgrounds who were forced, due to their circumstances, to commute to college. Therefore, the Jesuit universities catered to their region. If you were at the top of the class at a Catholic high school, you went to Fordham. If you were at the top of your Catholic high school in Boston, you went to Boston College. BC and Georgetown have leveraged their athletics to become truly national schools. Fordham gets students from all over the nation, but its historical geographic base (NY-NJ-Conn) remains the area from which it draws the largest segment of its student body.

The Jesuit universities, because of their service to working class Catholics, even today are under-endowed for universities of their size.

[Sader87]

To nitpick a little, Holy Cross was the more desired of the two Mass. Jesuit schools until about the 1970s. BC was actually more of a "commuter school" up to and through the years after WW2 into the 1950s or so.

Giving the bahstids their due, BC has surpassed HC in national recognition etc. ovah the past few decades.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Did Notre Dame's rise in the academic rankings mirror that of Georgetown's? I remember ND being recognized as a very good school but not an elite one when I was a kid. Over the last 15-20 years ND has taken a huge jump it seems. Perhaps it was all those prop 48 's under Holtz that's skewing my memory....

[Sader87]

I think ND has always been one of the top Catholic schools in the country....post WW2 anyway. It's probably become somewhat more selective lately but I don't think appreciably so.

BC is really the school that has transformed itself the most amongst Jesuit/other Catholic schools across the country. It was. as Joltin Joe pointed out, very much a school for "working-class" Irish and Italian families from Greater Boston for much of the 20th Century and transformed itself into a "national university" ala ND and GTown starting around the 1970s or so.

[DFW HOYA]

A few thoughts:

1. Yes, until Rev. J. Donald Monan's tenure on the Heights, HC was considered the lead Jesuit institution in New England, and in some circles, the top Jesuit school nationally. The decision not to grow with coeducation and focus entirely on the liberal arts dimmed its star power in the 1980's when business and STEM programs took off nationally.

2. The Bronx location has impacted Fordham but it also suffered from a lack of strategic direction for a quarter century, from Bensalem College and the early strategic direction on Lincoln Center to a number of graduate programs which were seen as undistinguished among its peers. Where Holy Cross didn't reach far enough in this era, Fordham overreached and was seen as ineffective. And yes, the Bronx didn't help.

3. Athletics didn't drive Georgetown's ascendance, it contributed to it. The one man largely responsible from Georgetown moving from "the Jesuit college of Washington" to a global research institution was a Fordham man--Timothy S. Healy S.J.(GSAS '59, '67). Born in NYC, educated at Regis, a PhD through Oxford in the study of John Donne, Healy taught at Fordham Prep, and was Executive VP at Fordham when he was hired away to become vice chancellor at CUNY in 1969, helping save those schools from imminent ruin when the state went to open enrollment. He was hired as Georgetown's president in 1976 and things took off from there. In fact, there have been only three presidents at Georgetown since 1976, and the current president, Jack DeGioia, served as Healy's chief of staff. He learned from the best. Had Healy replaced Rev. Leo McLaughlin, S.J. in 1969 instead of Rev. Michael Walsh, S.J., who knows how the trajectory of Fordham (and Georgetown) would have changed.

[JoltinJoe]

To nitpick a little, Holy Cross was the more desired of the two Mass. Jesuit schools until about the 1970s. BC was actually more of a "commuter school" up to and through the years after WW2 into the 1950s or so.

Giving the bahstids their due, BC has surpassed HC in national recognition etc. ovah the past few decades.

I think HC was more selective than BC into the 1980s. It also tended to have more of a national profile. BC was a school largely for commuters from right around Boston.

There is another reason why BC has become more selective: its name. As one Jesuit said to me a few years ago, while schools like Georgetown, BC and Fordham can pull in non-Catholics, "Not many Jews and Protestants just will feel comfortable at school called 'Holy Cross.'"

[JoltinJoe]

A few thoughts:

1. Yes, until Rev. J. Donald Monan's tenure on the Heights, HC was considered the lead Jesuit institution in New England, and in some circles, the top Jesuit school nationally. The decision not to grow with coeducation and focus entirely on the liberal arts dimmed its star power in the 1980's when business and STEM programs took off nationally.

2. The Bronx location has impacted Fordham but it also suffered from a lack of strategic direction for a quarter century, from Bensalem College and the early strategic direction on Lincoln Center to a number of graduate programs which were seen as undistinguished among its peers. Where Holy Cross didn't reach far enough in this era, Fordham overreached and was seen as ineffective. And yes, the Bronx didn't help.

3. Athletics didn't drive Georgetown's ascendance, it contributed to it. The one man largely responsible from Georgetown moving from "the Jesuit college of Washington" to a global research institution was a Fordham man--Timothy S. Healy S.J.(GSAS '59, '67). Born in NYC, educated at Regis, a PhD through Oxford in the study of John Donne, Healy taught at Fordham Prep, and was Executive VP at Fordham when he was hired away to become vice chancellor at CUNY in 1969, helping save those schools from imminent ruin when the state went to open enrollment. He was hired as Georgetown's president in 1976 and things took off from there. In fact, there have been only three presidents at Georgetown since 1976, and the current president, Jack DeGioia, served as Healy's chief of staff. He learned from the best. Had Healy replaced Rev. Leo McLaughlin, S.J. in 1969 instead of Rev. Michael Walsh, S.J., who knows how the trajectory of Fordham (and Georgetown) would have changed.

A lot of the lack of "strategic direction" at Fordham results from how Fordham needed to re-define itself in order to stay eligible for state subsidies under New York law. In the late 1960s, a time when Fordham was undoubtedly on the same level as Georgetown, New York passed a law prohibiting any subsidy to an institution controlled by a religious institution. Most states provide subsidies to religious colleges, so long as the state funds are not used for a religious purpose, but the New York law was far more restrictive. Consequently, Fordham re-defined itself as a "private" college "in the Jesuit tradition" and transitioned to a board of trustees controlled by lay persons.

Many Catholic colleges in New York gave up state subsidies, but that was never an option for such a large institution which was under-endowed as a consequence of its legacy as a "working class school."

What it meant to be a "private" institution in the "Jesuit tradition" was never clearly defined, and there was a lot of strife and turmoil which affected the direction of the school, as you note. Complicating matters, Fordham's Bronx neighborhood was declining quickly, which affected the number of applications to the school.

But in any event, due to politics, New York State damaged a great (and fairly unique) educational asset within New York State by its insistence that one of the nation's great Jesuit universities change -- to accommodate politics and a unnecessarily restrictive law.

But, as I noted before, Fordham is moving to re-capturing its pre-1970 status, and is proceeding quickly in that regard. True enough, the Lincoln Center campus had been a financial drain on the school, but that campus is now a critical part of the future. Fordham at Lincoln Center is unveiling a new $250 million law school building in the fall, and the Gabelli School of Business is moving into the old law school building. Meanwhile, the graduate business school has been merged with the undergraduate business school, under the Gabelli name. The Gabelli School of Business will be housed in state-of-the art facility in the Bronx (Hughes Hall) and in the old law school building at Lincoln Center. Further, Fordham at Lincoln Center, in conjunction with the Alvin Ailey School of Dance, now offers what is probably the most prestigious Bachelors of Fine Arts degree in the nation.

In the future, Fordham at Lincoln Center will be the home of superlative professional programs in law and business, and noted for its drama and fine arts department.

[Sader87]

I think HC was more selective than BC into the 1980s. It also tended to have more of a national profile. BC was a school largely for commuters from right around Boston.

There is another reason why BC has become more selective: its name. As one Jesuit said to me a few years ago, while schools like Georgetown, BC and Fordham can pull in non-Catholics, "Not many Jews and Protestants just will feel comfortable at school called 'Holy Cross.'"

The pride of Dartmouth, Mass, Neil Solomon, starting Jewish QB for the Crusaders in the late 1970s......

[citdog]

The pride of Dartmouth, Mass, Neil Solomon, starting Jewish QB for the Crusaders in the late 1970s......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoACIIz33II

[RichH2]

Dagnabit:),another cuppa coffee hits the floor,lmao.

[Sader87]

Quite a story. For whatever cultural, geographical etc reasons...a Jewish guy at The Citadel seems almost as incongruous as one at Holy Cross. Thank you for your service Mr Warshaw.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20130922/PC1204/130929807

[RichH2]

A moving story. Reminder that real life is never as simple as today's soundbite polemics would have people believe. Thanks 87

[Sader87]

Only in the PL: a thread starting out on GTown's recruits evolves into a discussion of Jewish alumni of the Citadel.....xrotatehx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I was thinking more about our Muslim friends who proudly don that Crusader shield. Back home in Wustahstan, Mullah Fawaz Ghaazi (PBUH) deems it Halal, you know.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Quite a story. For whatever cultural, geographical etc reasons...a Jewish guy at The Citadel seems almost as incongruous as one at Holy Cross. Thank you for your service Mr Warshaw.

Perhaps citdog can correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding is that there a lot of people of Jewish descent in the southeastern U.S. - perhaps even some at The Citadel - who might not realize that they are Jewish. They are descendants of Sephardi Jews (originally from Moorish Northern Africa) who fled from the Inquisition in Spain and Portugal in the seventeen century. As a population they are entirely distinct from the Ashkenazi who (much later) emigrated to the northeastern U.S. from Eastern Europe and Russia in the nineteenth and twentieth century.

[RichH2]

Perhaps citdog can correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding is that there a lot of people of Jewish descent in the southeastern U.S. - perhaps even some at The Citadel - who might not realize that they are Jewish. They are descendants of Sephardi Jews (originally from Moorish Northern Africa) who fled from the Inquisition in Spain and Portugal in the seventeen century. As a population they are entirely distinct from the Ashkenazi who (much later) emigrated to the northeastern U.S. from Eastern Europe and Russia in the nineteenth and twentieth century.

In broad strokes correct Bogie.. My senior dissertation partially reviewed this along with other immigration trends. At that time most sephardim went to Colombia and are still the centered in the Medellin area. A good number also went to the southern colonies in the 1700s

[PAllen]

Perhaps citdog can correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding is that there a lot of people of Jewish descent in the southeastern U.S. - perhaps even some at The Citadel - who might not realize that they are Jewish. They are descendants of Sephardi Jews (originally from Moorish Northern Africa) who fled from the Inquisition in Spain and Portugal in the seventeen century. As a population they are entirely distinct from the Ashkenazi who (much later) emigrated to the northeastern U.S. from Eastern Europe and Russia in the nineteenth and twentieth century.

So most Middle Eastern Muslims are Jews? I'm sure they'll like to hear that. And here I thought Judaism is a religion, not a race. I guess we didn't cover that enough in my mechanical engineering courses.

[Bogus Megapardus]

At that time most sephardim went to Colombia

Funny - I thought that most went to Harvard. :o

Seriously, though, I do recall being taught somewhere that those Sephardi who fled the Inquisition and landed in the southern U.S. (and in the Caribbean) often assimilated into local culture due (in part) to a lack of an organized Jewish community. They took to a variety of extant religious and community practices and protocols. This led to a rather broad (though by no means universal) disintegration of their unifying heritage. The effect was that, after a couple of generations, many of the colonial U.S. descendants of the Sephardi immigrants no longer recognized or understood their cultural or religious heritage. Literacy rates at the time being what they were, education would not have been effective to perpetuate that heritage.

[Bogus Megapardus]

So most Middle Eastern Muslims are Jews? I'm sure they'll like to hear that. And here I thought Judaism is a religion, not a race. I guess we didn't cover that enough in my mechanical engineering courses.

Judaism is both a religion and a culture. Some Middle Eastern Muslims might be descendant from Judaism just as some might be descendant from Christianity and others from Zoroastrianism (especially in modern-day Iran) or from the non-monotheistic cultures. Islam is an Abrahamic religion, after all (through Abraham's biblical son, Ishmael). Aspects of both the Old and New Testaments are recognized in Islam and Jesus of Nazareth is regarded in Islam as a Holy Prophet.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How did this theological discussion migrate here from the Lafayette at New Hampshire thread?

[Bogus Megapardus]

How did this theological discussion migrate here from the Lafayette at New Hampshire thread?

Easy. It's really a history discussion rather than a theological discussion. Lafayette and New Hampshire, as institutions, both have a lot of history. And so does Georgetown. So it all fits rather logically. xnodx

[RichH2]

Funny - I thought that most went to Harvard. :o

Seriously, though, I do recall being taught somewhere that those Sephardi who fled the Inquisition and landed in the southern U.S. (and in the Caribbean) often assimilated into local culture due (in part) to a lack of an organized Jewish community. They took to a variety of extant religious and community practices and protocols. This led to a rather broad (though by no means universal) disintegration of their unifying heritage. The effect was that, after a couple of generations, many of the colonial U.S. descendants of the Sephardi immigrants no longer recognized or understood their cultural or religious heritage. Literacy rates at the time being what they were, education would not have been effective to perpetuate that heritage.

Yup. In Colombia , most jewish names are now Cathoic but there is still a very large population following Judaism. Good friend of ours Rachel Atman from Medellin is from a Catholic family. Her father explained to me that his great grandfather converted family to catholicism to be accepted more easily into community

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yup. In Colombia , most jewish names are now Cathoic but there is still a very large population following Judaism. Good friend of ours Rachel Atman from Medellin is from a Catholic family. Her father explained to me that his great grandfather converted family to catholicism to be accepted more easily into community

And wouldn't you know, many of the players on the Georgetown roster also are Catholic. Imagine that coincidence! Of course that brings us full circle, back to a discussion of whether the Hoya DBs will be more effective this season against some of the new breed of accurate, strong-armed PL quarterbacks.

[Sader87]

Way to segue Bogey.....

[Bogus Megapardus]

Way to segue Bogey.....

Well, just as the Sephardi lost a number of adherents following emigration, the Hoyas lost a large number of very good, experienced players to graduation. Georgetown has a bunch of holes to fill in the defensive secondary. Plus there's always going to be a quarterback controversy in D.C. so we really don't know who we'll see come September. With Kevin Kelly having moved on and Rob Sgarlata stepping up into the HC position, it's probable that some schemes will continue - but will that quick snap, no-huddle offense remain in place? Posters here of all religions want to know.

[citdog]

Perhaps citdog can correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding is that there a lot of people of Jewish descent in the southeastern U.S. - perhaps even some at The Citadel - who might not realize that they are Jewish. They are descendants of Sephardi Jews (originally from Moorish Northern Africa) who fled from the Inquisition in Spain and Portugal in the seventeen century. As a population they are entirely distinct from the Ashkenazi who (much later) emigrated to the northeastern U.S. from Eastern Europe and Russia in the nineteenth and twentieth century.


The greatest example of this is the gentleman in my Avatar. Judah Benjamin, Sec of Treasury, and War, in President Jefferson Davis's Cabinet. The birthplace of Reform Judaism in North America is Charleston, SC. In 1860 there were more Jews in Charleston, Savannah, and New Orleans than anywhere else in the united States.

http://cd.pbsstatic.com/l/36/3636/9781570033636.jpg


http://richmondthenandnow.com/Images/Jewish-Confederate-Monument/Jewish-Confederate-Monument-2.jpg

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown has a bunch of holes to fill in the defensive secondary. Plus there's always going to be a quarterback controversy in D.C. so we really don't know who we'll see come September.

It's Kyle Nolan to start at QB but the depth chart gets cloudy after that.

[heath]

Very easy solution. Allow Georgetown to drop to the Centennial Conference(where they would fit like OJ's glove) and then grab Johns Hopkins and move all sports including Lax into the Patriot. Hopkins football is ready to make that jump, but .................Your turn to replyxconfusedx