Patriot League - 2014

[carney2]

3 ½ months to go so it’s early. Not too early to relieve the boredom however. So how about some comments on how the upcoming season will play out:

Not much debate about who will win the trophy:

FORDHAM: Nebrich is a Sunday afternoon quarterback, and that may be enough by itself. Coach Moorhead continues to bring in transfers and that seems to be working well. The defense will probably not be as good as the offense, but will that really matter? Villanova and Penn are the big OOC games so this should be another very good season on Rose Hill.

Second place is something of a tossup among three teams with lots of questions and lots of holes. The team that solves the most problems will prevail. None of the three will however put together an overall record that leads to a wild card playoff spot.

COLGATE: Need a QB, a RB, an offensive line and a defense. Biddle used to pull rabbits out of his hat. Has he passed the magic on to new head coach, Dan Hunt? There may be some solutions on offense, but the defensive weaknesses are beginning to look like a Raider tradition. Delaware and Princeton look like the toughest OOC games, but Yale and Albany won’t be pushovers for this team.

LAFAYETTE: After surprising everyone in 2013, the Pards seem set at quarterback, but WR, OL, RB and various parts of the defense are question marks. Some solutions appear at hand, and an uncharacteristically weak schedule should help. William & Mary and Harvard are the big OOC hurdles.

LEHIGH: The limp to the finish line last year revealed weaknesses at QB and in the defense. RB has rarely been a Squawk strength and they will be looking to transfers to plug that gap. A more or less complete overhaul of the coaching staff will factor into the results. The schedule has been upgraded from recent years with James Madison, UNH and Yale the first three games in September.

There’s only one dark horse:

HOLY CROSS: It’s tough to see a 3-9 team suddenly turning into a juggernaut, but stranger things have happened. The ‘saders appear set at football’s most important position, quarterback, and Coach Tom Gilmore is building around last year’s freshman phenom. Still, they seem a year away from contending. The OOC schedule is not real demanding, with Harvard appearing to be the toughest game.

The also-rans are repeats from last year, and the year before, and the…

BUCKNELL: Coach Susan may be the first coach in history gunning to go 0-0-11 with nothing but scoreless ties on his record. He used his scholarship recruiting to shore up his already strong defense, but last year’s frequently anemic offense is not getting much help. To the best of my knowledge no one has yet seen a 2014 schedule for the Buffaloes, but tradition says there will be some winnable games.

GEORGETOWN: It’s not news that the Hoyas refuse to play scholarship football and that the head coach has resigned. The only good news is that they will be playing Harvard and Brown at home. Perhaps the underwhelmed Georgetown community will mistake this for some sort of College Bowl, quizbowl match and show up to revel in the intellectual fireworks.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The transfer issue is interesting. Moorhead got some UConn players to transfer and perhaps Fordham will broaden its scope. Certainly the Rams have shown that they're not adverse to transfers. Now . . . will Lehigh seek to become "Transfer U." as well? Along with Fordham, Lehigh seems to be the most likely PL school to look in that direction.

Lafayette's Tavani already has made his position clear on what he terms, "free agents." Colgate, Bucknell and Cross certainly haven't made transfers a priority in the past. Georgetown, absent scholarships, is unlikely to attract DI transfers except in rare circumstances.

It seems that redshirt transfers maintain their eligibility in the PL despite the league-wide redshirt ban for incoming freshmen. The transfers to the PL from Northeastern and Hofstra all maintained their eligibility to the best of my knowledge.

I'm still unclear about how the academic index applies to transfers.

[RichH2]

AI does apply to transfers. 137 had the best explanation of how. IIR, it does have loopholes. I'll try to find it.

[Ken_Z]

BUCKNELL: Coach Susan may be the first coach in history gunning to go 0-0-11 with nothing but scoreless ties on his record. He used his scholarship recruiting to shore up his already strong defense, but last year’s frequently anemic offense is not getting much help. To the best of my knowledge no one has yet seen a 2014 schedule for the Buffaloes, but tradition says there will be some winnable games.


yes, Lafayette is on the schedule

[RichH2]

Every team has issues going into next yr. Agree tho Rams have fewer and the best QB.Next up Pards and LU. Edge to pards with very good QB but a raft of holes to fill or improve. LU a talented QB but basically untested. Losing top RB and WR but lots of talent on O but with new OC and mostly new coaches.D was a true cluster ******. Reminded me of the Keystone Kops. Load of talent , not all,particularly on DL ,fitting the scheme, but fast and athletic. New DC should help here. A team an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
Cross next up with Pujols and some decent skills. Tom emphasized speed finally in recruiting but most of Crusaders speed will be frosh. Cross needs to find a D backfield/
Bison will torture every opponent with their D.Zero O will doom them ,D willf old up by 2nd half of the season.
Gate pretty talented but no apparent heir at QB. Not bad elsewhere but not great either.
Hoyas will show up for every game

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Fordham is easily the favorite. I think they can make a run at Frisco if they can get a little more physical on defense.

Lehigh and Lafayette are next in line. I don't see either team with a clear edge. Lehigh's strength will be their OL and depth at the skill positions. The defense should be better by default. The added depth along the front 7 will pay dividends. Still, they'll get pushed around from time to time...

I like Lafayette's over talent level. They need to get better in the trenches though.

I think Bucknell could surprise some due to their defense. Their schedule is also pretty easy.

Holy Cross has Pujals and a good crop of freshman. Overall athleticism is still lagging behind, for now...

Colgate is still searching for answers imo. They were a bad team from start to finish last year. The defense has been terrible for the last 5 years or so. They need a QB and some speed at the skill positions...

Georgetown...they won't be nearly as bad as some think imo...

[Sader87]

Right now:

1. Fordham A couple years head start on schollies and some Yukon transfers put them in the driver's seat.

2. Lafayette Good QB and I think solid lines on both sides of the ball.

3/4 Lehigh/HC HC improved with the return of scholarships, Lehigh still solid.

5. Colgate New coach, new QB...Red Raiders will have growing pains.

6. Bucknell Just not a football school.

7. GTown Possibly one of their last years in the PL for football. (though I hope not)

[Go...gate]

Fordham is easily the favorite. I think they can make a run at Frisco if they can get a little more physical on defense.

Lehigh and Lafayette are next in line. I don't see either team with a clear edge. Lehigh's strength will be their OL and depth at the skill positions. The defense should be better by default. The added depth along the front 7 will pay dividends. Still, they'll get pushed around from time to time...

I like Lafayette's over talent level. They need to get better in the trenches though.

I think Bucknell could surprise some due to their defense. Their schedule is also pretty easy.

Holy Cross has Pujals and a good crop of freshman. Overall athleticism is still lagging behind, for now...

Colgate is still searching for answers imo. They were a bad team from start to finish last year. The defense has been terrible for the last 5 years or so. They need a QB and some speed at the skill positions...

Georgetown...they won't be nearly as bad as some think imo...

We usually disagree on scheduling philosophy but I agree with you on this.

Colgate must rebuild.

[CFBfan]

COLGATE: Delaware and Princeton look like the toughest OOC games, but Yale and Albany won’t be pushovers for this team.

AND, Gate opens up on the road at Ball State......likely the toughest ooc in the PL this year

[Sader87]

HC probably has its worst football schedule post WW2 this year....thankfully it's been somewhat offset by scheduled future games against BC, UConn, Syracuse etc

[DFW HOYA]

7. GTown Possibly one of their last years of FCS football. (though I hope not)

Your edit from last night's post is appreciated, but again, there is nothing to support this argument.

[RichH2]

Your edit from last night's post is appreciated, but again, there is nothing to support this argument.
Not an argument just an observation IMO. Can Hoyas compete with the current minimal funding,whether need or merit? Not consistently and going forward not at all. Believe that most of us hope that GU can work out some solutions, reality compels a rather bleak outlook for Hoya football in the PL.

[DFW HOYA]

Not an argument just an observation IMO. Can Hoyas compete with the current minimal funding,whether need or merit? Not consistently and going forward not at all. Believe that most of us hope that GU can work out some solutions, reality compels a rather bleak outlook for Hoya football in the PL.

"Last years of PL football" vs "Last years of FCS football" are two much different topics. Let's not confuse the two.

[Sader87]

"Last years of PL football" vs "Last years of FCS football" are two much different topics. Let's not confuse the two.

Good point, that's essentially what I meant in my post. I can see GTown soldiering on at the FCS level (Indy, Pioneer, 9th Ivy etc)....I don't see a long term future in the PL, though again, I hope to be proven wrong.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bucknell showed some flashes of aptitude last season against Lehigh and Colgate, and in a narrow loss vs. Fordham. One thing we haven't really discussed is how that came to be, and whether the Doctors will have the prescription to carry that success forward into 2014.

In the recent past Bucknell has been credited for its defense, but the Bison scored early and often with some big plays in 2014. Some suggested it last year but could the Lewisburgers be this year's sleeper, on the cusp of a breakout season - reminiscent of Georgetown 2011?

[JimboCBA72]

3 ½ months to go so it’s early. Not too early to relieve the boredom however. So how about some comments on how the upcoming season will play out:

Not much debate about who will win the trophy:

FORDHAM: Nebrich is a Sunday afternoon quarterback, and that may be enough by itself. Coach Moorhead continues to bring in transfers and that seems to be working well. The defense will probably not be as good as the offense, but will that really matter? Villanova and Penn are the big OOC games so this should be another very good season on Rose Hill.

Second place is something of a tossup among three teams with lots of questions and lots of holes. The team that solves the most problems will prevail. None of the three will however put together an overall record that leads to a wild card playoff spot.

COLGATE: Need a QB, a RB, an offensive line and a defense. Biddle used to pull rabbits out of his hat. Has he passed the magic on to new head coach, Dan Hunt? There may be some solutions on offense, but the defensive weaknesses are beginning to look like a Raider tradition. Delaware and Princeton look like the toughest OOC games, but Yale and Albany won’t be pushovers for this team.

LAFAYETTE: After surprising everyone in 2013, the Pards seem set at quarterback, but WR, OL, RB and various parts of the defense are question marks. Some solutions appear at hand, and an uncharacteristically weak schedule should help. William & Mary and Harvard are the big OOC hurdles.

LEHIGH: The limp to the finish line last year revealed weaknesses at QB and in the defense. RB has rarely been a Squawk strength and they will be looking to transfers to plug that gap. A more or less complete overhaul of the coaching staff will factor into the results. The schedule has been upgraded from recent years with James Madison, UNH and Yale the first three games in September.

There’s only one dark horse:

HOLY CROSS: It’s tough to see a 3-9 team suddenly turning into a juggernaut, but stranger things have happened. The ‘saders appear set at football’s most important position, quarterback, and Coach Tom Gilmore is building around last year’s freshman phenom. Still, they seem a year away from contending. The OOC schedule is not real demanding, with Harvard appearing to be the toughest game.

The also-rans are repeats from last year, and the year before, and the…

BUCKNELL: Coach Susan may be the first coach in history gunning to go 0-0-11 with nothing but scoreless ties on his record. He used his scholarship recruiting to shore up his already strong defense, but last year’s frequently anemic offense is not getting much help. To the best of my knowledge no one has yet seen a 2014 schedule for the Buffaloes, but tradition says there will be some winnable games.

GEORGETOWN: It’s not news that the Hoyas refuse to play scholarship football and that the head coach has resigned. The only good news is that they will be playing Harvard and Brown at home. Perhaps the underwhelmed Georgetown community will mistake this for some sort of College Bowl, quizbowl match and show up to revel in the intellectual fireworks.

We (Fordham) also finish the regular season against the Black Knights of the Hudson. Our debacle there in 2011 was the final nail in Masella's coffin

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bucknell showed some flashes of aptitude last season against Lehigh and Colgate, and in a narrow loss vs. Fordham. One thing we haven't really discussed is how that came to be, and whether the Doctors will have the prescription to carry that success forward into 2014.

In the recent past Bucknell has been credited for its defense, but the Bison scored early and often with some big plays in 2014. Some suggested it last year but could the Lewisburgers be this year's sleeper, on the cusp of a breakout season - reminiscent of Georgetown 2011?

Bucknell Plus: Return all five starting OL, plus underrated RB C.J. Williams.
Bucknell Minus: Need to break in new QB, plus passing game wasn't much to speak of last season.

If you throw out the 48-10 game against Lehigh as "playing out of their minds" for one game, you see a pattern of Bucknell's defense keeping them in every single game (including the game vs. Fordham, notably), and if the offense does break out for 30 point games, they'll be wins.

Another consideration is that a fair number of starters from last year's team don't return - on defense and, crucially, at QB.

To this reporter it looks like Bucknell will go as far as R.J. Nitti takes them. He has weapons, and a running game to take the load off. If we are talking about him on par with Pujals and Reed, they could certainly make a run.

[Bogus Megapardus]

We (Fordham) also finish the regular season against the Black Knights of the Hudson. Our debacle there in 2011 was the final nail in Masella's coffin

A great chance at redemption for the Rams. Same day as Holy Cross/Georgetown and Lafayette/Lehigh #150 so November 22 is going to be a huge day for Patriot League football. As an aside, former Lafayette DC John Loose now is on the Black Knights' staff. Loose will know all about preparing for Fordham - a thought that I'm sure hasn't escaped Joe Moorhead.

[GateRaider63]

Anxious to see what Tem Lukabu can do with the linebackers at Colgate. He coached Khaseem Greene at Rutgers when he moved from safety to linebacker and had 277 tackles and 9.5 sacks in 2 years. Not to mention that Lukabu was 2 time PL Defensive POY himself.

[heath]

Fordham had luck on their side last year,many games went down to the wire, (reminds me of Lehigh the past 4 years).
1-Lehigh only because their defense and new schemes will be new and better + will ball control with good O line and transfer at RB
2-Fordham only because they will lose one or two of those close games this season(the bulls eye effect)
3-Holy Cross only because they keep improving
4-Lafayette only because of the sophomore jinx
then the rest
Lehigh will enter league play with multiple loses, but those tough games will only help them in the PL ala last seasons champ(what a PL embarrassment in the playoffs)

[HoyaMetanoia]

Good point, that's essentially what I meant in my post. I can see GTown soldiering on at the FCS level (Indy, Pioneer, 9th Ivy etc)....I don't see a long term future in the PL, though again, I hope to be proven wrong.

Georgetown will end up as an independent with a very similar schedule. It's the only feasible option.

[RichH2]

Georgetown will end up as an independent with a very similar schedule. It's the only feasible option.
Why bother leaving PL if Hoyas play basically same schedule. Nonsensical

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Why bother leaving PL if Hoyas play basically same schedule. Nonsensical

I agree...

Georgetown could compete without scholarships IF they decided to upgrade in other areas. The PL has proven that you don't need to sponsor schollies to be relevant nationally. The Hoya's might not compete every season. But, once every few years would keep interest in the program imo.

[Sader87]

You do have to have scholarships to compete nationally imo.....

[DFW HOYA]

I agree...

Georgetown could compete without scholarships IF they decided to upgrade in other areas. The PL has proven that you don't need to sponsor schollies to be relevant nationally. The Hoyas might not compete every season. But, once every few years would keep interest in the program imo.

If scholarships aren't needed to be relevant, how would Georgetown compete if it was in the CAA? Not very well.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You do have to have scholarships to compete nationally imo.....

Depends what you consider nationally. I consider Top 25 as being nationally viable. Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham and HC have all produced Top 15 teams, let alone Top 25. The Randolph HC squad was REALLY good. Lafayette also had two really good teams in '04/'05.

Lehigh's teams in the late 90's, early 2000's,were second only to HC's squads of the 80's. Colgate's 2003 team and Lehigh's 2011 edition were elite as well....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

If scholarships aren't needed to be relevant, how would Georgetown compete if it was in the CAA? Not very well.

Perhaps not the CAA. But they might do ok in the Big South with a facility upgrade and a decent grant-aid policy.....

There's plenty of terrible scholarship programs...

[Sader87]

The 1980s HC teams were mostly full scholarship teams until maybe 1989 or so and had scholarship players on the roster until 1991...they really haven't been nationally relevant at the FCS-level since then.

[RichH2]

History establishes that you can compete with need aid IF first you give close to max equivalencies and have a very good coaching staff. Certainly true you can compete more effectively and consistently w merit aid.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Why bother leaving PL if Hoyas play basically same schedule. Nonsensical

Because Georgetown won't be obligated to play a full Patriot League slate. Games against scholarship laden, non peer schools don't make much sense for Georgetown. So cutting out games against the Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world and replacing them with two Ivies, or an Ivy and another local game, would be a better option.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Because Georgetown won't be obligated to play a full Patriot League slate. Games against scholarship laden, non peer schools don't make much sense for Georgetown. So cutting out games against the Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world and replacing them with two Ivies, or an Ivy and another local game, would be a better option.

Until just a couple of seasons ago, some PL schools played four or even five IL games each year; often we were absolutely crushed. The Patriot League adopted scholarship football largely to gain the wherewithal to compete more evenly with the much larger and better-resourced Ivies. So I think Georgetown is mistaken if it thinks that Ivy games such as Penn and Princeton would be more suitable for it competitively than PL games such as Lafayette and Lehigh. Keep in mind that the Hoyas have won just one Ivy game in its PL era - a 2003 victory (under Bob Benson) over an utterly hapless Cornell squad that promptly fired its head coach.

"Replacing the Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world" (or even some of them) with "two Ivies" on a newly-independent Georgetown schedule might not be such an axiomatic process. With Georgetown out of the Patriot League, all of those otherwise-nameless, fungible little Lehighs and Lafayettes running around will start challenging, rather than cooperating with, Georgetown for Ivy OOC games. And those dispensable, "L-school" non-entities have a whole lot more history with all of the Ivy programs (not just the good ones), and provide them with a much better draw, than does Georgetown.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Georgetown fits with the Patriot League better than any other conference. They would dominate the PFL, as they would get players that those other schools could only dream about recruiting. Competitively, they are the equivalent of any number of NEC schools, but they don't resemble CCSU or RMU in any way. They'd fit perfectly in the Ivy in the same way Columbia fits in the Ivy, but there continue to be no openings.

The sad thing is, offering even a limited amount of merit aid (say at a NEC level), combined with Georgetown's national reach, would probably make the Hoyas into a contender immediately. Even with the MSF.

[maristdb89]

They would dominate the PFL

Sorry but you're wrong. Great institution, but in their current state they would be a .500 team in the PFL. Maybe.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Sorry but you're wrong. Great institution, but in their current state they would be a .500 team in the PFL. Maybe.

True.

But Georgetown in the PFL (or as an Independent) wouldn't be "burdened" with the Academic Index. You'd see a much more physically competitive Hoya team after a couple of recruiting classes.

[maristdb89]

True.

But Georgetown in the PFL (or as an Independent) wouldn't be "burdened" with the Academic Index. You'd see a much more physically competitive Hoya team after a couple of recruiting classes.

Clearly the AI hurts them, but IMHO their issues are far larger than a burdensome AI. Unfortunately I don't see a commitment to elevate the program (schollies; MSF; etc.). Wish I did.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't see a commitment to elevate the program.

If you look at its situation as a whole, Georgetown already did elevate the football program when it decided to join the Patriot League. That move provided the Hoyas with a much higher level of competition (compared to old MAAC football) and with access to Ivy League games. Concomitant with the switch Georgetown had grand designs for Multi-Sport Field but it has not been able to budget MSF's completion. Nevertheless the move seemed to reflect an earnest commitment to Hoya football.

What Georgetown football has going for it (aside from its academic renown and Washington, D.C. location) is


The location of the field, right in the middle of a classic campus. This gives students (many if not most of whom do not have cars) the opportunity to attend games and it gives alums the chance to return to campus (rather than to some remote, off-campus facility).
The playing surface itself is new, state-of-the-art and in excellent shape.
The (partially completed) home stands are adequate and serviceable even if the aesthetics of the facility as yet leave something to be desired. (The dilapidated visitor's stands ought to be condemned.)
Georgetown sponsors a far greater number of sports than most other institutions and it has a strong legacy of supporting high-achieving student-athletes, with the emphasis on "student."
Georgetown has a legacy of national championships and title contenders in many sports.
Georgetown has the scholastic wherewithal to comply with the Ivy/Patriot Academic Index.

But in the decade following Georgetown's move to the Patriot League, the league itself began to contemplate the move to merit aid football. That placed a considerable challenge to a Hoya football program that already was having difficulty with the rigors of its move to (still non-scholarship) Patriot/Ivy competition. (Yes, I know, some snicker at the notion of Patriot & Ivy football being a "step up" for anyone, but still . . . .)

Most of us in the PL have read and considered all of the arguments for and against Georgetown joining the PFL or the NEC or the Big South, going Independent and trying to concoct a "de facto" Ivy schedule, or dropping football completely. (The Ivy League is not adding/dropping members *ever* so that shouldn't even be a consideration.) When all is said and done, I really do believe that Georgetown ought to Stop Worrying and Learn to Love the Patriot League. Yes, the university needs to put a little more Slim Pickens-like gusto into it, but Georgetown's present home in the PL is where it belongs, the "Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world" notwithstanding.

[Go...gate]

History establishes that you can compete with need aid IF first you give close to max equivalencies and have a very good coaching staff. Certainly true you can compete more effectively and consistently w merit aid.

Colgate, 2003.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colgate, 2003.

You guys had better put on a good show for the Blue Hens this season. They seem to think you'll be a "creampuff." Don't let it happen! xsmhx

[HoyaMetanoia]

Until just a couple of seasons ago, some PL schools played four or even five IL games each year; often we were absolutely crushed. The Patriot League adopted scholarship football largely to gain the wherewithal to compete more evenly with the much larger and better-resourced Ivies. So I think Georgetown is mistaken if it thinks that Ivy games such as Penn and Princeton would be more suitable for it competitively than PL games such as Lafayette and Lehigh. Keep in mind that the Hoyas have won just one Ivy game in its PL era - a 2003 victory (under Bob Benson) over an utterly hapless Cornell squad that promptly fired its head coach.

"Replacing the Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world" (or even some of them) with "two Ivies" on a newly-independent Georgetown schedule might not be such an axiomatic process. With Georgetown out of the Patriot League, all of those otherwise-nameless, fungible little Lehighs and Lafayettes running around will start challenging, rather than cooperating with, Georgetown for Ivy OOC games. And those dispensable, "L-school" non-entities have a whole lot more history with all of the Ivy programs (not just the good ones), and provide them with a much better draw, than does Georgetown.

1. I believe that the gap between the Patriot League and Ivy League will begin to grow with the implementation of a full complement of scholarships. At that point, it makes much more sense competitively as well as the external benefits. And even if it isn't more competitive, Georgetown clearly values the idea of playing football against its peer institutions than it values winning games.

2. If you think that the Ivies see Lafayette or Lehigh as more attractive opponents, you're simply wrong. You're not their peers academically, and the alumni base for each and every school is much larger in DC than it is in the Lehigh Valley. Not to mention that wins are much more attractive than losses.

[Bogus Megapardus]

1. I believe that the gap between the Patriot League and Ivy League will begin to grow with the implementation of a full complement of scholarships. At that point, it makes much more sense competitively as well as the external benefits. And even if it isn't more competitive, Georgetown clearly values the idea of playing football against its peer institutions than it values winning games.

2. If you think that the Ivies see Lafayette or Lehigh as more attractive opponents, you're simply wrong. You're not their peers academically, and the alumni base for each and every school is much larger in DC than it is in the Lehigh Valley. Not to mention that wins are much more attractive than losses.

Fascinating perspective.

I'll let others (especially those many PLers who turned down Ivy admissions) debate the current notion of "peer" and I'll let the attendance figures and historical Ivy/PL contest tallies speak for themselves. But I do recommended mindfulness of Georgetown's published reasons for being "honored" to join the Patriot League - because Georgetown would be able to play against its academic and historic "peers." That announcement itself derived from the joint Ivy-Patriot conference that initially established the PL as a collection of "peer institutions" to become Ivy's regular OOC opponents.

I've never had the gumption to challenge that definition of the term, but you might.

[RichH2]

Wow, metanoia. So many glib assumptions. Guess we all should be honored that you deign to talk with us,even tho we are not your "peers" (:. Yet. GU would only apply this standard to football,according to you. Situational elitism. Certainly fits the Ivy view. :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you think that the Ivies see Lafayette or Lehigh as more attractive opponents, you're simply wrong. You're not their peers academically, and the alumni base for each and every school is much larger in DC than it is in the Lehigh Valley. Not to mention that wins are much more attractive than losses.

1. Getting into Colgate or Bucknell is about as hard as getting into Brown and Cornell, with Lehigh not all that far behind them. I can't speak to Lafayette vis-a-vis Dartmouth but I don't think it's a very large gap (if there's a gap at all).

2. H-Y-P have vastly higher admissions standards than the rest of the Ivy League, and I would argue that the only thing holding them so close to their other five schools is common history. If the Ivy League were founded today, would Penn really be a part of the same club? Lehigh and Lafayette are not their peers, but then again neither is most of the IL.

3. Lafayette and Lehigh (and Colgate) are attractive opponents, I think, because over time they have been solid teams on the national level and do have some commitment to academics - plus, H-Y-P have beat them a fair amount over time. Holy Cross (Harvard/Dartmouth/Brown), Bucknell (Cornell) and Fordham (Columbia) are also good opponents on a regional basis, also in terms of following the same rules of an academic index.

4. Georgetown is the closest thing to a peer institution that H-Y-P have academically, but athletically in football they lag behind, so it's been difficult to mount a rivalry.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Until just a couple of seasons ago, some PL schools played four or even five IL games each year; often we were absolutely crushed. The Patriot League adopted scholarship football largely to gain the wherewithal to compete more evenly with the much larger and better-resourced Ivies. So I think Georgetown is mistaken if it thinks that Ivy games such as Penn and Princeton would be more suitable for it competitively than PL games such as Lafayette and Lehigh. Keep in mind that the Hoyas have won just one Ivy game in its PL era - a 2003 victory (under Bob Benson) over an utterly hapless Cornell squad that promptly fired its head coach.

"Replacing the Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world" (or even some of them) with "two Ivies" on a newly-independent Georgetown schedule might not be such an axiomatic process. With Georgetown out of the Patriot League, all of those otherwise-nameless, fungible little Lehighs and Lafayettes running around will start challenging, rather than cooperating with, Georgetown for Ivy OOC games. And those dispensable, "L-school" non-entities have a whole lot more history with all of the Ivy programs (not just the good ones), and provide them with a much better draw, than does Georgetown.

1. I believe that the gap between the Patriot League and Ivy League will begin to grow with the implementation of a full complement of scholarships. At that point, it makes much more sense competitively as well as the external benefits. And even if it isn't more competitive, Georgetown clearly values the idea of playing football against its peer institutions than it values winning games.

2. If you think that the Ivies see Lafayette or Lehigh as more attractive opponents, you're simply wrong. You're not their peers academically, and the alumni base for each and every school is much larger in DC than it is in the Lehigh Valley. Not to mention that wins are much more attractive than losses.

Given your reply, it seems that I might have expressed my point inartfully.

The "gap" between Ivy and Patriot will "grow" only if Ivy continues to win more Patriot games than it loses. That's because, historically, Ivy has won the vast bulk of those contests and it continues to do so (with rare exceptions, mostly involving Columbia). One essential goal of Patriot football scholarships is to try to narrow that gap for the teams that now provide scholarships. Georgetown was given the opportunity to play Ivy teams becasue it joined the PL. Georgetown might no longer deem PL membership necessary in order to schedule Ivy teams but it does not follow conclusively that Georgetown, playing (and scheduling) as an Independent, will garner its pick of Ivy opponents at the expense of the other PL schools. That would assume that the "other" PL schools have zero institutional merit of their own, which I hope is not your argument.

It's absolutely true that Lafayette and Lehigh are located in the remote wilderness of the Lehigh Valley. But also both are in the greater New York City and Philadelphia metropolitan areas. Princeton, Columbia and Penn are a short Saturday morning drive from both. Holy Cross is almost equally proximate to Harvard, Brown, Yale and Dartmouth. Colgate is a backyard neighbor to Cornell, as is Bucknell when they play the nearly-annual "Battle of the Nells." D.C. area Ivy alums certainly can - and do - find their way to MSF. But my point was that PL fans show up in numbers at Ivy games. When Lafayette plays at Penn or Princeton, for example, the crowd at Franklin Field or Princeton Stadium often is more than half Lafayette fans. They know that.

I apologize for the confusion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One other element I'd like to discuss (since no Patriot League thread is complete without a full analysis of Georgetown) is presidential buy-in of a football culture, no matter how small. The words "football culture" are not popular right now, but it's easy to see the schools that, at a bare minimum, have one (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate), those that have rebuilt one recently (Fordham), and those that have good football history, but appear to focus more on men's basketball over football (Bucknell, Holy Cross, Georgetown).

In the case of the "PL Hoops 3", it seems like, again, it's history in men's hoops (Hoya NCAA championships, Holy Cross NIT championships, Bucknell NCAA darlings, but also with a long-seated hoops legacy) that is at least a part of the reason. But it also seems like more could be done at a presidential/admin level to develop a positive athletics culture of which football is a healthy part.

Regional aspects also play a big part. Holy Cross can't play UMass, BC, or BU on a regular basis anymore, so there needs to be some sort of school close by to blossom into the team that the Crusaders love to beat year in and year out, the team that regularly steals your recruits and you love to hate them. Georgetown also doesn't have any natural rivals close by either, and the regional rivals of its past are no longer at the same level.

In contrast, Fordham and Columbia have blossomed into "a thing" that both schools want to continue.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Perhaps I should start the countdown to citdog's (anticipated) post, which somehow will make use of the word, "Schmeckle."

5 . . . 4 . . . 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

[HoyaMetanoia]

1. Getting into Colgate or Bucknell is about as hard as getting into Brown and Cornell, with Lehigh not all that far behind them. I can't speak to Lafayette vis-a-vis Dartmouth but I don't think it's a very large gap (if there's a gap at all).

2. H-Y-P have vastly higher admissions standards than the rest of the Ivy League, and I would argue that the only thing holding them so close to their other five schools is common history. If the Ivy League were founded today, would Penn really be a part of the same club? Lehigh and Lafayette are not their peers, but then again neither is most of the IL.

3. Lafayette and Lehigh (and Colgate) are attractive opponents, I think, because over time they have been solid teams on the national level and do have some commitment to academics - plus, H-Y-P have beat them a fair amount over time. Holy Cross (Harvard/Dartmouth/Brown), Bucknell (Cornell) and Fordham (Columbia) are also good opponents on a regional basis, also in terms of following the same rules of an academic index.

4. Georgetown is the closest thing to a peer institution that H-Y-P have academically, but athletically in football they lag behind, so it's been difficult to mount a rivalry.

No problem with 2-4, but please don't kid yourself on #1. It's not close. Comparing admissions rates won't do.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Fascinating perspective.

I'll let others (especially those many PLers who turned down Ivy admissions) debate the current notion of "peer" and I'll let the attendance figures and historical Ivy/PL contest tallies speak for themselves. But I do recommended mindfulness of Georgetown's published reasons for being "honored" to join the Patriot League - because Georgetown would be able to play against its academic and historic "peers." That announcement itself derived from the joint Ivy-Patriot conference that initially established the PL as a collection of "peer institutions" to become Ivy's regular OOC opponents.

I've never had the gumption to challenge that definition of the term, but you might.

Show me the data that supports the fact that kids regularly, or even semi regularly, turn down Ivies for PL schools and I'll be beyond shocked.

The PL is comprised of Georgetown's peers, to some extent, but the Ivies are closer peers.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Show me the data that supports the fact that kids regularly, or even semi regularly, turn down Ivies for PL schools and I'll be beyond shocked.

The PL is comprised of Georgetown's peers, to some extent, but the Ivies are closer peers.

I've never studied the data and I don't know if those data are published. Personally I turned down two Ivy schools (I was wait-listed at another); my "First Lady" attended an Ivy school but was rejected at a PL school; I know many of my era (honestly, I do) who chose PL over Ivy. In fact most of my college classmates had the choice and a lot (including me) planned to, and did, go on to Ivy graduate schools. But that was in the 1980's when "Ivy" didn't have its present cachet. Things change.

Georgetown unquestionably (at present) is an admissions-data peer to most Ivies. So too are Duke, Stanford, Vanderbilt and Northwestern. But focusing on football and football "culture" (which is the reason for this discussion board) - and on all the intangible things that football brings to highly academic institutions (which is the subject of another discussion) - Georgetown really isn't an Ivy "peer," and neither are Duke, Stanford, Vanderbilt or Northwestern. I think that the term "peer" really has to include a combination of academics, football culture, history and access to fans/students/alumni.

[citdog]

Perhaps I should start the countdown to citdog's (anticipated) post, which somehow will make use of the word, "Schmeckle."

5 . . . 4 . . . 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

Metanoia is an old Hebrew word meaning a Whale's Vagina.


also schmeckle

[RichH2]

More situational elitism. Academically ,GU probably somewhere in the middle of IL. Your dismissal of PL implies a huge gap between the IL and PL. From HYP. I agree, the rest not so much.
However that may sort out, the issue here is where and who should GU schedule in football. Your claim that it is better to lose to Ivies than to the lesser PL schools is a puzzler to me. Admit, I absolutely dont understand that concept.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Metanoia is an old Hebrew word meaning a Whale's Vagina.


also schmeckle




xoutofrepx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Your claim that it is better to lose to Ivies than to the lesser PL schools is a puzzler to me.

I think I understand the concept.

PL schools have been scheduling (and losing to) Ivy schools for 150 years. Early on it all had to do with geographic proximity, name recognition and that we were the only schools fielding competitive football teams. In the 1940s through the 1960s it had to do with tradition and academic/philosophical coherence (Georgetown really didn't have a football team). From the 1980s on it had to do with academic/philosophical coherence and geographical proximity (so students wouldn't miss classes and exams) combined with the Ivy/Patriot cross-scheduling agreement that resulted in the formation of the Patriot League.

Over the last decade PL schools (and their fans and alums) decided that the shoulder-rubbing wasn't enough to justify losing consistently - often badly - to Ivy schools. Ivy coaches were boasting that they could provide athletes with a "full ride" without providing (NCAA-defined) "scholarships." It showed on the recruiting trail and on the field and the (much smaller) PL schools couldn't match that. Playing our traditional Ivy opponents is what the PL schools and alums wanted but the accumulating losses were bruising competitive egos and weighing heavily on fan enthusiasm. A kid being offered a wink-and-nod "full ride" to Brown or Cornell just wasn't going to take out a loan to play at Holy Cross or Bucknell.

So it wasn't enough simply to "keep the company" of our traditional opponents. We needed a way to compete with Big Ivy on the recruiting trail and on the field. The Patriot League instituted football scholarships - still laden with all the other Ivy-style rules about academics and redshirting, etc. - merely to be able to offer what Ivy offered. Over the past two years we've been able to recruit head-to-head with Ivy so it seems to be working.

Georgetown is years behind the rest of the PL in this regard. A couple or three decades of getting trashed by Penn and Harvard will change their tune.

[Sader87]

Fans of schools that talk about the concept of "peer schools" incessantly, in my experience, usually don't have very good football teams...xcoffeex

[Bogus Megapardus]

Fans of schools that talk about the concept of "peer schools" incessantly, in my experience, usually don't have very good football teams...xcoffeex

Nonsense. We kicked your a$$, didn't we? xblehx

And then, of course, there was your season-ender vs. Georgetown . . .

[RichH2]

I think I understand the concept.

PL schools have been scheduling (and losing to) Ivy schools for 150 years. Early on it all had to do with geographic proximity, name recognition and that we were the only schools fielding competitive football teams. In the 1940s through the 1960s it had to do with tradition and academic/philosophical coherence (Georgetown really didn't have a football team). From the 1980s on it had to do with academic/philosophical coherence and geographical proximity (so students wouldn't miss classes and exams) combined with the Ivy/Patriot cross-scheduling agreement that resulted in the formation of the Patriot League.

Over the last decade PL schools (and their fans and alums) decided that the shoulder-rubbing wasn't enough to justify losing consistently - often badly - to Ivy schools. Ivy coaches were boasting that they could provide athletes with a "full ride" without providing (NCAA-defined) "scholarships." It showed on the recruiting trail and on the field and the (much smaller) PL schools couldn't match that. Playing our traditional Ivy opponents is what the PL schools and alums wanted but the accumulating losses were bruising competitive egos and weighing heavily on fan enthusiasm. A kid being offered a wink-and-nod "full ride" to Brown or Cornell just wasn't going to take out a loan to play at Holy Cross or Bucknell.

So it wasn't enough simply to "keep the company" of our traditional opponents. We needed a way to compete with Big Ivy on the recruiting trail and on the field. The Patriot League instituted football scholarships - still laden with all the other Ivy-style rules about academics and redshirting, etc. - merely to be able to offer what Ivy offered. Over the past two years we've been able to recruit head-to-head with Ivy so it seems to be working.

Georgetown is years behind the rest of the PL in this regard. A couple or three decades of getting trashed by Penn and Harvard will change their tune.

:) Thanks Bogie. Got our history. I can see playing Ivies and I love our tradition with them even when we ;ose more than we win. But we always played to win even back in my day. It's the acceptance of losing as long as its to the "right sort" of opponent. Perhaps yohave the crux that GU is just a few decades behind us.

[Lehigh'98]

Show me the data that supports the fact that kids regularly, or even semi regularly, turn down Ivies for PL schools and I'll be beyond shocked.

The PL is comprised of Georgetown's peers, to some extent, but the Ivies are closer peers.

I turned down Penn to play at LU. Given the choice to do it over again.......well hmmm.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Thanks Bogie. Got our history. I can see playing Ivies and I love our tradition with them even when we lose more than we win. But we always played to win even back in my day. It's the acceptance of losing as long as its to the "right sort" of opponent. Perhaps you have the crux that GU is just a few decades behind us.

Thank you, Rich. I think we all can agree that losing an exciting game to a program, with which you have decades upon decades of history, is no shame whatsoever. Lafayette/Lehigh is a great example - "well, they got us this time, but next time, watch out!" Isn't that what players and fans live for?

Lafayette (finally) has been able to achieve that balance with Penn (and with Yale to some extent) but Harvard and Princeton? Forget it. It's awful for us. If we simply can maintain that "get 'em next time" mindset with some semblance of credibility . . . well, that's all we want. And I hasten to suggest, "peers" or not, that's what our honorable opponents would like as well.

But it takes a long, long time to develop those traditions and rivalries. They ought not be treated lightly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Keep in mind that in a lot of the Ivy cases there are head-to-head recruiting battles with PL schools, some won by Ivy, some won by PL. That adds some juice to the matchups too that wouldn't be present in a matchup with a land grant school.

[Bogus Megapardus]

a land grant school

You mean like Cornell? xrolleyesx

[TheValleyRaider]

PL schools have been scheduling (and losing to) Ivy schools for 150 years.

Speak for yourself. We're 12 games over .500 all-time, thank you very much xblehx xnodx


You mean like Cornell? xrolleyesx

...and back in my good graces xlolx ;)

[DFW HOYA]

Some good discussion here, lots of topics and I'll speak to one: rivalries.

One of the reasons PL football has been able to thrive, if not necessarily grow, is the strength of rivalries through the years. Every Lehigh alumnus can remember the annual Lafayette game--yesterday, today, tomorrow. Colgate and Holy Cross have played 75 times over the last 80 seasons. Bucknell has rivalries with nearly every PL school that alumni can recall and remember fondly.

One of the structural impediments Georgetown has is a lack of rivalries across the generations--there really aren't any. In the early 1900's, the big games were Navy, Virginia, VPI. Fast forward 25 years, and the schedule reads Maryland, West Virginia, and BC. And by the time D-III football takes hold in the 1970's, the opponent list includes the likes of Manhattan, Washington & Lee, and Johns Hopkins, with little relevance to alumni of yesteryear. By the 1990's, with Big East basketball ascendant, GU students are watching Iona, Siena, and Canisius with little interest. Two decades later, how do you build an appreciation for PL opponents that are unfamiliar to many fans, given that GU students aren't allowed cars and don't go on road trips? Even the Ivies, who are otherwise popular for scheduling, have little or no athletic history with GU.

Rivalries are to be appreciated, and protected. You don't know what you've got until, well, it isn't there.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Speak for yourself. We're 12 games over .500 all-time, thank you very much xblehx xnodx

It's no wonder we can't run with you guys - even in good years! xsmhxxbowxxrolleyesx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Some good discussion here, lots of topics and I'll speak to one: rivalries.

One of the reasons PL football has been able to thrive, if not necessarily grow, is the strength of rivalries through the years. Every Lehigh alumnus can remember the annual Lafayette game--yesterday, today, tomorrow. Colgate and Holy Cross have played 75 times over the last 80 seasons. Bucknell has rivalries with nearly every PL school that alumni can recall and remember fondly.

One of the structural impediments Georgetown has is a lack of rivalries across the generations--there really aren't any. In the early 1900's, the big games were Navy, Virginia, VPI. Fast forward 25 years, and the schedule reads Maryland, West Virginia, and BC. And by the time D-III football takes hold in the 1970's, the opponent list includes the likes of Manhattan, Washington & Lee, and Johns Hopkins, with little relevance to alumni of yesteryear. By the 1990's, with Big East basketball ascendant, GU students are watching Iona, Siena, and Canisius with little interest. Two decades later, how do you build an appreciation for PL opponents that are unfamiliar to many fans, given that GU students aren't allowed cars and don't go on road trips? Even the Ivies, who are otherwise popular for scheduling, have little or no athletic history with GU.

Rivalries are to be appreciated, and protected. You don't know what you've got until, well, it isn't there.

An outstanding post. Thanks, DFW.

[RichH2]

Some good discussion here, lots of topics and I'll speak to one: rivalries.

One of the reasons PL football has been able to thrive, if not necessarily grow, is the strength of rivalries through the years. Every Lehigh alumnus can remember the annual Lafayette game--yesterday, today, tomorrow. Colgate and Holy Cross have played 75 times over the last 80 seasons. Bucknell has rivalries with nearly every PL school that alumni can recall and remember fondly.

One of the structural impediments Georgetown has is a lack of rivalries across the generations--there really aren't any. In the early 1900's, the big games were Navy, Virginia, VPI. Fast forward 25 years, and the schedule reads Maryland, West Virginia, and BC. And by the time D-III football takes hold in the 1970's, the opponent list includes the likes of Manhattan, Washington & Lee, and Johns Hopkins, with little relevance to alumni of yesteryear. By the 1990's, with Big East basketball ascendant, GU students are watching Iona, Siena, and Canisius with little interest. Two decades later, how do you build an appreciation for PL opponents that are unfamiliar to many fans, given that GU students aren't allowed cars and don't go on road trips? Even the Ivies, who are otherwise popular for scheduling, have little or no athletic history with GU.

Rivalries are to be appreciated, and protected. You don't know what you've got until, well, it isn't there.

Very well said DFW. No quick or easy fix. We should all take the English approach and muddle through these changes and hope for the best for all of us .

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just another comment to DFW's post - the rivalries are here if Hoya fans want to encourage them. Holy Cross and Fordham seem like excellent choices.

And why not put the hammer down on all that "FiOS Game" smack with some more Hoya dominance on the field and a few aptly-worded signs held up by Georgetown fans during the Lafayette game? Get them on television. We can take it - in fact we'd love it. It has to start somewhere.

But rivalries cannot be "astroturfed." You have to mean it. xshakefistx

[RichH2]

:) Your team sucks, now where do you want to go to lunch.

[Bogus Megapardus]

:) Your team sucks, now where do you want to go to lunch.

Precisely!

Have you tried this new IPA . . . .

[HoyaMetanoia]

Fans of schools that talk about the concept of "peer schools" incessantly, in my experience, usually don't have very good football teams...xcoffeex

Yep, that would be us.

Given the statements, and actions which speak just as loud, by the administration at Georgetown, our goal seems to be just to rub shoulders with our academic peers on football Saturdays. That's why I think becoming an independent is the best option, because it would allow us more freedom to schedule Ivies, mix them in with PL teams that we can try and build some buzz around given our history of playing each other, maybe some local schools and/or a few cupcakes (which really is scraping the bottom of the barrel).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Some good discussion here, lots of topics and I'll speak to one: rivalries.

One of the reasons PL football has been able to thrive, if not necessarily grow, is the strength of rivalries through the years. Every Lehigh alumnus can remember the annual Lafayette game--yesterday, today, tomorrow. Colgate and Holy Cross have played 75 times over the last 80 seasons. Bucknell has rivalries with nearly every PL school that alumni can recall and remember fondly.

One of the structural impediments Georgetown has is a lack of rivalries across the generations--there really aren't any. In the early 1900's, the big games were Navy, Virginia, VPI. Fast forward 25 years, and the schedule reads Maryland, West Virginia, and BC. And by the time D-III football takes hold in the 1970's, the opponent list includes the likes of Manhattan, Washington & Lee, and Johns Hopkins, with little relevance to alumni of yesteryear. By the 1990's, with Big East basketball ascendant, GU students are watching Iona, Siena, and Canisius with little interest. Two decades later, how do you build an appreciation for PL opponents that are unfamiliar to many fans, given that GU students aren't allowed cars and don't go on road trips? Even the Ivies, who are otherwise popular for scheduling, have little or no athletic history with GU.

Rivalries are to be appreciated, and protected. You don't know what you've got until, well, it isn't there.

I wanted to add to this further. In the MAAC there were some games with like-minded Big East schools in St. John's and Seton Hall, and there are two schools in the CAA Villanova and Richmond that could also "work" in terms of some similarity as institutions, too. But St. John's and Seton Hall folded their programs, while Nova and Richmond went the other direction, fully funding football. The Hoyas are stuck in the middle.

The other funny thing is that there are loads of schools nearby that had football at one point (American, George Washington) or never did (Loyola) that could provide Georgetown with the sort of regional rival that might "work" - and two of them are already PL schools. But there's no plans for American or Loyola to start (or re-start) football, and GWU ain't doing it either. Georgetown and GWU actually played each other a lot in the 40s and 50s.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yep, that would be us.

Given the statements, and actions which speak just as loud, by the administration at Georgetown, our goal seems to be just to rub shoulders with our academic peers on football Saturdays. That's why I think becoming an independent is the best option, because it would allow us more freedom to schedule Ivies, mix them in with PL teams that we can try and build some buzz around given our history of playing each other, maybe some local schools and/or a few cupcakes (which really is scraping the bottom of the barrel).


I wanted to add to this further. In the MAAC there were some games with like-minded Big East schools in St. John's and Seton Hall, and there are two schools in the CAA Villanova and Richmond that could also "work" in terms of some similarity as institutions, too. But St. John's and Seton Hall folded their programs, while Nova and Richmond went the other direction, fully funding football. The Hoyas are stuck in the middle.

The other funny thing is that there are loads of schools nearby that had football at one point (American, George Washington) or never did (Loyola) that could provide Georgetown with the sort of regional rival that might "work" - and two of them are already PL schools. But there's no plans for American or Loyola to start (or re-start) football, and GWU ain't doing it either. Georgetown and GWU actually played each other a lot in the 40s and 50s.

Valid points all around. So why isn't the solution for Georgetown simply to remain in the Patriot League? In any given season the Hoyas will have (on average) two difficult, two medium and two easier league opponents and still have five (or six) open weekends to schedule Ivies, plus Marist or Davidson, plus a local opponent such as Howard or a DII team. Or even a reach such as W&M, Richmond, Towson or Villanova - all of which would be more likely to play Georgetown if it remains in the PL.


NB: Sader87 *hates* the Patriot League. Can't wait to join Georgetown on the Independent circuit. xnodx

[HoyaMetanoia]

Valid points all around. So why isn't the solution for Georgetown simply to remain in the Patriot League? In any given season the Hoyas will have (on average) two difficult, two medium and two easier league opponents and still have five (or six) open weekends to schedule Ivies, plus Marist or Davidson, plus a local opponent such as Howard or a DII team. Or even a reach such as W&M, Richmond, Towson or Villanova - all of which would be more likely to play Georgetown if it remains in the PL.


NB: Sader87 *hates* the Patriot League. Can't wait to join Georgetown on the Independent circuit. xnodx

I just think that as the Patriot League teams get better and the competitive balance between Georgetown and the rest of the league gets even more skewed, Georgetown will not see the benefit in being obligated to play a full league slate where they're going to get killed every week. Going Independent would let them pick and choose who they get killed by. Under that scenario, Georgetown would still try and keep many of its PL games, but could replace individual matchups that are less attractive moving forward with an Ivy or a cupcake (I don't even know if that's the word to define how bad a team would have to be to be considered a cupcake to Georgetown).

[Sader87]

Valid points all around. So why isn't the solution for Georgetown simply to remain in the Patriot League? In any given season the Hoyas will have (on average) two difficult, two medium and two easier league opponents and still have five (or six) open weekends to schedule Ivies, plus Marist or Davidson, plus a local opponent such as Howard or a DII team. Or even a reach such as W&M, Richmond, Towson or Villanova - all of which would be more likely to play Georgetown if it remains in the PL.


NB: Sader87 *hates* the Patriot League. Can't wait to join Georgetown on the Independent circuit. xnodx

Not true actually....I think the PL is a nice football league for Holy Cross....I do think HC, like Fordham and GTown, should be an associate member of the PL and play basketball in the Big East or the A-10.

[Go Green]

but could replace individual matchups that are less attractive moving forward with an Ivy or a cupcake (I don't even know if that's the word to define how bad a team would have to be to be considered a cupcake to Georgetown).

Who exactly are the cupcakes that you have in mind?

I'm guessing that Davidson was the one that didn't want to renew the four-game series with Georgetown, so it's far from clear that they'd be interested in a yearly game with Georgetown.

Catholic? Gallaudet? College of Faith?

[CFBfan]

Who exactly are the cupcakes that you have in mind?

I'm guessing that Davidson was the one that didn't want to renew the four-game series with Georgetown, so it's far from clear that they'd be interested in a yearly game with Georgetown.

Catholic? Gallaudet? College of Faith?

Columbia vs Gtown seems like a natural to me, a competeitive game for both?

[Go Green]

Columbia vs Gtown seems like a natural to me, a competeitive game for both?

I also wonder what that game doesn't happen more often.

But HM said he could see Georgetown schedule "an Ivy or a cupcake," so I assumed that the two were exclusive.

[RichH2]

I do understand the frustration with not being competitive. Lehigh went thru a decade back in the 60s where we didn't hit double digits in Ws for the entire decade. The solution is not accepting losing as inevitable. I realize GU has different issues than we did but as long as the possibility of success is there, changing the stance of GU towards football s\b the first step. A daunting task,no doubt,and not one that can be done quickly. It can take decades,money and luck. Tradition never dies but it cannot be constructed or changed in a few years. Can it be done? Dont know. but predicting future failure is not the way to start.

[Go Green]

I do understand the frustration with not being competitive. Lehigh went thru a decade back in the 60s where we didn't hit double digits in Ws for the entire decade. The solution is not accepting losing as inevitable. I realize GU has different issues than we did but as long as the possibility of success is there, changing the stance of GU towards football s\b the first step. A daunting task,no doubt,and not one that can be done quickly. It can take decades,money and luck. Tradition never dies but it cannot be constructed or changed in a few years. Can it be done? Dont know. but predicting future failure is not the way to start.

Some version of precisely just this gets written on the Columbia Football blog a few times a year.

:)

[RichH2]

:)No doubt green. And Columbia has a football tradition of at least occasional excellence. GU. has a harder road to travel but one that is preferable to giving up IMO.

[Bogus Megapardus]

:)No doubt green. And Columbia has a football tradition of at least occasional excellence. GU. has a harder road to travel but one that is preferable to giving up IMO.

"A Football Tradition of At Least Occasional Excellence" - Awesome banner/tagline for Columbia's athletics web page. xrolleyesx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Catholic? Gallaudet? College of Faith?

Next-door neighbor Georgetown Visitation might be up for a game. I hear the Cubs have some speed in the backfield and a fairly stout OL. Could be a challenge, but travel costs would be literally nil.

I assume Visi would be looking for a home-and-home.

[RichH2]

Hehehe, couldn' resist. Historical note Columbia was one of the Ivies that recruited me out of HS ,also Brown. Chose LU happily, City kid didn't see going to college in just another city. Wanted a real campus as well as a great education.

[Go Green]

Next-door neighbor Georgetown Visitation might be up for a game. I hear the Cubs have some speed in the backfield and a fairly stout OL. Could be a challenge, but travel costs would be literally nil.

I assume Visi would be looking for a home-and-home.

I think that Georgetown v. DeMatha would be a pretty good game.

[Sader87]

The thing is, GTown is really not that far off from being a halfway decent FCS program. Just in the last few years they have won a fair share of PL games, beat Princeton in 2012, went 8-3 in 2011 etc etc etc

Should DFW expect a lot of his fellow Hoya alumni to crash at his place for the GTown game in Frisco anytime soon? No, but given just a modicum of support for football at GTown, they could transform that program into one that is annually competitive with its PL peer schools (couldn't resist xsmiley_wix), the Ancient VIII and even programs like Richmond and W&M.

[RichH2]

:) tostay on topic ,87 what's going on up at HC. Lax and hockey coaches bailed.

[Sader87]

:) tostay on topic ,87 what's going on up at HC. Lax and hockey coaches bailed.

Lots of drama on the Hill lately.

Purely speculation but it looks like the lax coach was forced out whilst the hockey coach did indeed bail (took an asst position at Harvard).

Similar to the GTown football situation I think, particularly in hockey, in that not enough support was given to hockey in terms of # of schollies, not pushing hard enough for a hockey league upgrade etc. The lax supporters have historically been very vocal in their displeasure with the support its sport has been given at HC.

In many ways, it looks like HC is trying to redefine what it's athletic department will look like etc in the new AD's era. Should prove to be an interesting, if nothing else, next couple of years at HC as this unfolds.

[UAalum72]

:)No doubt green. And Columbia has a football tradition of at least occasional excellence. GU. has a harder road to travel but one that is preferable to giving up IMO.

"A Football Tradition of At Least Occasional Excellence" - Awesome banner/tagline for Columbia's athletics web page. xrolleyesx
Five winning seasons (only three of which they outscored their opps. for the year) and two .500 seasons in the last sixty years? No winning season since most of this fall's incoming freshmen were born? More like "very occasional mediocrity."

[RichH2]

UA tradition in the Ivies goes much further back than 60 yrs.

[UAalum72]

UA tradition in the Ivies goes much further back than 60 yrs.

Is it a "tradition" if the only people who can remember it are those over 75 but not yet senile? At some point hoary traditions become nearly-forgotten history, replaced by newer traditions.

Besides, isn't a tradition something you do at regular intervals?

My mother would've been college-age the last time Columbia had three winning seasons in a row. She'll be 90 this fall.

[RichH2]

:)Never said it was a good tradition. A long one tho and in comparison to GU a real one.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is it a "tradition" if the only people who can remember it are those over 75 but not yet senile? At some point hoary traditions become nearly-forgotten history, replaced by newer traditions.

It falls to the living to continue them, and remind people of them.

[citdog]

Is it a "tradition" if the only people who can remember it are those over 75 but not yet senile? At some point hoary traditions become nearly-forgotten history, replaced by newer traditions.

.

NOT where I'm from they are not.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0n4izWmWug

[HoyaMetanoia]

NOT where I'm from they are not.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0n4izWmWug

I think everyone would be better off if the south forgot about all of their traditions.

[citdog]

I think everyone would be better off if the south forgot about all of their traditions.


GLAD that you don't get to make that decision.


http://southcarolina1670.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/graves1.jpg?w=420&h=315


Isn't it ENOUGH that WE WON the First American Revolution for you?

[Sader87]

citdog, the South's overall record is 0-1 and they dropped the program after 4 years......xrotatehx

[RichH2]

citdog, the South's overall record is 0-1 and they dropped the program after 4 years......xrotatehx

xlolxxlolxxbowx The best putdown of cidog ever.

[DFW HOYA]

:)Never said it was a good tradition. A long one tho and in comparison to GU a real one.

Number of winning seasons since 1970:

Georgetown 19
Columbia 3

[Bogus Megapardus]

Number of winning seasons since 1970:

Georgetown 19
Columbia 3

Hardly an apt comparison. In 1970 Columbia had wins over Harvard, Lafayette and Rutgers. By contrast, Georgetown sported victories over clubs teams from Seton Hall and Catholic U., plus the West Chester JV. How do you think Columbia would have fared with Georgetown's schedule, and vice-versa?

Also peers . . . . xrotatehx

[citdog]

citdog, the South's overall record is 0-1 and they dropped the program after 4 years......xrotatehx

Actually that would be 1-1. Seeing as how we did what the yankee could NOT. Whip the Lobsterbacks and create the 'late union of the States'.

[DFW HOYA]

Hardly an apt comparison. In 1970 Columbia had wins over Harvard, Lafayette and Rutgers. By contrast, Georgetown sported victories over clubs teams from Seton Hall and Catholic U., plus the West Chester JV. How do you think Columbia would have fared with Georgetown's schedule, and vice-versa?

Would Columbia be funded the same, approx. $20,000? Or would Georgetown have access to the talent Columbia did?

Not an apt comparison, but that wasn't the issue. Georgetown's football tradition post 1970 isn't that of Columbia and wasn't designed to be.

[Sader87]

Actually that would be 1-1. Seeing as how we did what the yankee could NOT. Whip the Lobsterbacks and create the 'late union of the States'.

The South was technically a "club program" then....not an official "varsity W."

[RichH2]

The South was technically a "club program" then....not an official "varsity W."

:)yup, besides which we were on the same side vs lobsterbacks.

[Bogus Megapardus]

citdog, the South's overall record is 0-1 and they dropped the program after 4 years......xrotatehx

xbowxxbowxxbowx

I stand in awe. Perhaps I should slink back the the "Lafayette at New Hampshire" thread where I belong.

[citdog]

:)yup, besides which we were on the same side vs lobsterbacks.

The yankee had already been defeated by the English. You owe your freedom to Genl Francis Marion, Genl Thomas Sumter, Genl Andrew Pickens. The 'Swamp Fox', the 'Carolina Gamecock', and the 'Wizard Owl'. If there had been no Kings Mountain there would have been no Cowpens. If there had been no Cowpens there would have been no Guilford Court House if there was no Guilford there would have been no retreat by Cornwallis into Virginia and hence no surrender by Lord Cornwallis at Yorktown. The Southern Army did what the Northern one could NOT. WHIP the British and win the Revolution.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Surrender by Lord Cornwallis at Yorktown

Growing up as kids in north we learned that story just a bit differently.






http://youtu.be/3E8zmaOiCVw

[Go...gate]

I move that we make citdog an honorary Patriot Leaguer!

[RichH2]

Seconded but he must wear Union blue :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Morning coffee.






http://store464.collegestoreonline.com/webitemimages/464/W43268.jpg

[RichH2]

Morning coffee.







http://store464.collegestoreonline.com/webitemimages/464/W43268.jpg

Nice cup, discounted because of screwup with name. Lehigh-Lafayette proper terminology:).
Oh,well guess its good enuf for Pards.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Nice cup, discounted because of screwup with name. Lehigh-Lafayette proper terminology:).
Oh,well guess its good enuf for Pards.

We've been through this.

"Lafayette - Lehigh" both is the "official" name of the ongoing Rivalry according to the Patriot League By-Laws1 and is the "official" name of the 150th Game at Yankee Stadium.

I was considering a wager based on the outcome of #150 - winner gets first billing until #175 - but you guys would have nothing to lose and we'd have everything to lose. That's because we're already first, indisputably, in every conceivable value by which criteria of those sort are measured. Go ahead. Prove me wrong. xrulesx



1 e.g., 2013-14 Patriot League Policies and Procedures; § VII - Operational By-Laws, p.37.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lehigh appears to have taken an unwarranted liberty with its own merchandise by employing an unsanctioned game logo that is not derived from the league-approved version.





http://www.lehighsports.com/images/2014/4/15/RivalryGearAd2.png



This will not stand. I shall register a petition with the TTAB in due course. xsmhxxconfusedxxrolleyesx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At least both sides of the argument use "The Rivalry"...

[Go...gate]

Nice cup, discounted because of screwup with name. Lehigh-Lafayette proper terminology:).
Oh,well guess its good enuf for Pards.

Where can one get these, name screw-up or not?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Where can one get these, name screw-up or not?

Lafayette College Store.

http://store464.collegestoreonline.com/ePOS?form=cat.html&cat=105&store=464

[LeopardBall10]

Even with all of the 150th ticket talk earlier I am still wondering if I'll be able to get one (two if the wife insists on coming). Although, something tells me that the parking lot is going to be a great time as well.

[RichH2]

Even with all of the 150th ticket talk earlier I am still wondering if I'll be able to get one (two if the wife insists on coming). Although, something tells me that the parking lot is going to be a great time as well.
More tickets on sale in Sept definitely. Schools still looking to expand allotment. If so,may have some earlier.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think expanded seating is in the hands of the Yankees. Don't see why they wouldn't, especially since it's essentially a sellout now at its current allotment.

[carney2]

It will be interesting to see how many fannies are actually in the seats on November 22nd. Lots of comments and rumors, but the only "fact" at the moment is that no tickets are currently available. Consider:

Originally it was stated that around 36,000 tickets would be sold. The assumption was that the second deck would neither be used nor needed.

Some reports now say that 40,000+ tickets have been sold.

Stadium capacity for football is around 54,000.

How about if we have a raffle, with the person who comes closest to guessing the correct attendance getting ringside seats to the CitiDog/Heath vs. 87/DFW tag team match at Madison Square Garden?

[LeopardBall10]

Sounds like a great idea carney, but first we would have to decide how to define "correct attendance". Do we want the actual number of tickets sold or how many actually pass through a turnstile on that fateful Saturday?

[carney2]

Sounds like a great idea carney, but first we would have to decide how to define "correct attendance". Do we want the actual number of tickets sold or how many actually pass through a turnstile on that fateful Saturday?

How do you interpret "fannies in the seats?"

[citdog]

I think expanded seating is in the hands of the Yankees..

god damn yankees

[bison137]

Bucknell Plus: Return all five starting OL, plus underrated RB C.J. Williams.
Bucknell Minus: Need to break in new QB, plus passing game wasn't much to speak of last season.

If you throw out the 48-10 game against Lehigh as "playing out of their minds" for one game, you see a pattern of Bucknell's defense keeping them in every single game (including the game vs. Fordham, notably), and if the offense does break out for 30 point games, they'll be wins.

Another consideration is that a fair number of starters from last year's team don't return - on defense and, crucially, at QB.

To this reporter it looks like Bucknell will go as far as R.J. Nitti takes them. He has weapons, and a running game to take the load off. If we are talking about him on par with Pujals and Reed, they could certainly make a run.



1. When Wesley was healthy last year, the passing game was just fine. Wesley completed about 62% for about 178 yards per game - but attempts were limited because they had a good running game and Susan is very conservative when they can move the ball on the ground. A prime example of that was Georgetown, when they easily moved the ball early to build up a 17-0 lead and then didn't throw even one pass downfield for the entire second half.

2. Bucknell returns 17 starters from last year. Is losing 5 starters such a big number? Agree that QB is the big deal. Defense loses three, with the two on the DL being significant losses. On offense, the only two gone are the FB and the QB. The FB was very good but wasn't even in for half the snaps.

3. Agree that Nitti is the key. He was clearly not ready when thrown into the fray last year while Wesley was hurt. However he looked a lot better in the spring and has a very good arsenal of receivers to throw to. His HS pedigree is also very good - although he missed the latter part of his HS season with a knee injury and was unable to practice in the spring and first half of the summer before arriving at Bucknell.

[Pard4Life]

I think the "Bowl Game" capacity for football is 48,000. Some of the lower seats are blocked off due to being too level with the field. I believe 44,000 have been sold. So, the Yankees are probably selling the 4,000. You will probably be able to score some on their site or stub hub.

I actually think we will sell this baby out. Holy Allie Gast Batman!

[Pard4Life]

Lots of drama on the Hill lately.

Purely speculation but it looks like the lax coach was forced out whilst the hockey coach did indeed bail (took an asst position at Harvard).

Similar to the GTown football situation I think, particularly in hockey, in that not enough support was given to hockey in terms of # of schollies, not pushing hard enough for a hockey league upgrade etc. The lax supporters have historically been very vocal in their displeasure with the support its sport has been given at HC.

In many ways, it looks like HC is trying to redefine what it's athletic department will look like etc in the new AD's era. Should prove to be an interesting, if nothing else, next couple of years at HC as this unfolds.

Wow, you mean alumni get angry and kick out the coach, and the administration agrees? There is a novel concept... xbawlingx

[DFW HOYA]

I think the "Bowl Game" capacity for football is 48,000. Some of the lower seats are blocked off due to being too level with the field. I believe 44,000 have been sold. So, the Yankees are probably selling the 4,000. You will probably be able to score some on their site or stub hub.
I actually think we will sell this baby out.

Attendance predictions for the other two games that week, games that will be largely ignored by the league:

Colgate at Bucknell: 2,824
Holy Cross at Georgetown: 1,789

[carney2]

I think the "Bowl Game" capacity for football is 48,000. Some of the lower seats are blocked off due to being too level with the field. I believe 44,000 have been sold. So, the Yankees are probably selling the 4,000. You will probably be able to score some on their site or stub hub.

I actually think we will sell this baby out. Holy Allie Gast Batman!

Notre Dame and Army cracked 54,000 a year or two ago, so I'm thinking you are missing about 6,000 somewhere.

44,000 vs. 48,000 vs 54,000 - no matter. Pretty good for two schools with a combined undergraduate enrollment of about 7,300.

[RichH2]

Notre Dame and Army cracked 54,000 a year or two ago, so I'm thinking you are missing about 6,000 somewhere.

44,000 vs. 48,000 vs 54,000 - no matter. Pretty good for two schools with a combined undergraduate enrollment of about 7,300.
Yup. Issue with seats is Yanks reluctance to open upper sections. Do hope they release more sections for us to sell. Unlikely IMO

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Honest question: How much pressure do you think the Pinstripe Bowl people have in that decision to open the upper decks?

After all, it would be a pretty big embarrassment to the Pinstripe Bowl if Rivalry 150 outsells and outdraws it, which it is currently on pace to do.

[carney2]

Honest question: How much pressure do you think the Pinstripe Bowl people have in that decision to open the upper decks?

After all, it would be a pretty big embarrassment to the Pinstripe Bowl if Rivalry 150 outsells and outdraws it, which it is currently on pace to do.

It would be puzzling if the Yankees refuse to open the rest of the stadium. Generally, additional tickets = additional revenues = additional profits for the Yankees. But then we don't know the particulars of the rental agreement, do we?

An interesting exercise in arithmetic says that if the game sells out at 54,000, with the home team being l'il ole Lafayette with a total enrollment of about 2,400, Penn State, for instance, with a University Park enrollment of about 45,500 would have to put about 1,024,000 in the stands for one game to accomplish the same thing.

[Bogus Megapardus]

pretty big embarrassment to the Pinstripe Bowl if Rivalry 150 outsells and outdraws it

Not sure I agree. The Pinstripe Bowl is a nice college game but it's just that. Rivalry #150 is an "event" with strong local significance and ties. I'd be surprised if #150 didn't outdraw the Pinstripe Bowl.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not sure I agree. The Pinstripe Bowl is a nice college game but it's just that. Rivalry #150 is an "event" with strong local significance and ties. I'd be surprised if #150 didn't outdraw the Pinstripe Bowl.

I agree now (seeing the extraordinary response in regards to ticket sales), but you underestimate the power of ego. Let's put it this way: would the Pinstripe Bowl people try to deny the possibility of it happening - tiny Lafayette and Lehigh outdrawing, say, "mighty" South Florida and Kansas State?

[Bogus Megapardus]

DFW - what about the 20,000 seat soccer stadium that DC United is supposed to be building down at Buzzard Point? Were Georgetown to host one of the "schools in its fight song" (Yale, Holy Cross, Princeton, etc.) at such a facility would it be able to draw 10-12,000?





http://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_358w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/07/25/Interactivity/Images/DSCU-stadium.jpg

[RichH2]

Pinstripe a renter from ,not a partner with Stadium. RIVALRY is a one off event. Doubt Pinstripe cares at all.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I agree now (seeing the extraordinary response in regards to ticket sales), but you underestimate the power of ego. Let's put it this way: would the Pinstripe Bowl people try to deny the possibility of it happening - tiny Lafayette and Lehigh outdrawing, say, "mighty" South Florida and Kansas State?

South Florida and Kansas State would turn it into a marketing positive (because it's ALL about marketing for them). They can proclaim, "we're playing where college football's most historic rivalry also is being held!" - thus getting some of that "historic rivalry" dust on their shoulders, too. It doesn't matter that South Florida and Kansas State fans never heard of our schools (we're kind of self-selective, you know). Certainly they know, at a minimum, that their respective programs long ago were preceded by "some old colleges, somewhere up there in the northeast." Now that they know who are those "old colleges," South Florida and Kansas State fans can pretend like their game is "historic" as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Pinstripe a renter from, not a partner with Stadium. RIVALRY is a one off event. Doubt Pinstripe cares at all.

Rich - is L-L #150 a "partner" with Yankee Stadium?

[RichH2]

Rich - is L-L #150 a "partner" with Yankee Stadium?
Nope, a one time event renter. Point is Pinstripe has zero clout with Yanks and likely cares little about our game. If anything we will raise the profile of the Stadium as a college football venue :)

[Go...gate]

I think it is great that LC and LU will have such a outstanding turnout. Congratulations!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think it is great that LC and LU will have such a outstanding turnout. Congratulations!

Either (a) Thanks so much! (b) What a maroon-nose or (c) Said the poster whose team has been to the FCS finals. xrolleyesx

[Go...gate]

Either (a) Thanks so much! (b) What a maroon-nose or (c) Said the poster whose team has been to the FCS finals. xrolleyesx

I'm serious, so (a) should apply.

It is a testament to the school spirit at both Lafayette and Lehigh.

[LeopardBall10]

It is a testament to the school spirit at both Lafayette and Lehigh.

I would love to say I agree, but IMHO I think it has more to do with the incessantneed for the specific types of alumni from both schools who need to feel important on a regular basis. I wish it were about the football game, and not the national stage...

[RichH2]

Well. 10, cant disagree that there are some event junkies among both our fan bases. For them the primary aspect of the game is to raise national reps of our schools. Not necessarily a bad thing. Most of us like to see more postive attention to our schools. Disagree tho that it is the primary motivation for many alumni.Whether game at Goodman or Yankee Stadium,the most important issue for the vast majority of us is that we win the game. Winning that contest defines the seaso every year almost regardless of season record.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fans come in all shapes and sizes. I hear you that I wish more people were as obsessed as I am about the programs and not just one game, but in order to get past 40,000 fans you need a whole lot of different types of fans. Lots of room on the wagon train! :)

[carney2]

Countering the "consensus" that Lafayette-Lehigh No 150 has grabbed the hearts and souls of all alums, here's my tale of woe. All - as in 100% - of my usual list of cronies has refused to go. The excuses range from

"All of the tailgating and post-game traditions have been ruined."

to

"I'm not going all the way in there."

to my personal favorite

"It'll be cold."

That last one tells me that I don't know too many people who would have gutted it through Valley Forge or Bastogne or...

Anyway, I finally had to dig up a high school friend who simply wants to see Yankee Stadium and couldn't care less about this game. It was either that or my wife, who would be bitching and moaning throughout - and I get enough of that every other day of the year.

[RichH2]

Countering the "consensus" that Lafayette-Lehigh No 150 has grabbed the hearts and souls of all alums, here's my tale of woe. All - as in 100% - of my usual list of cronies has refused to go. The excuses range from

"All of the tailgating and post-game traditions have been ruined."

to

"I'm not going all the way in there."

to my personal favorite

"It'll be cold."

That last one tells me that I don't know too many people who would have gutted it through Valley Forge or Bastogne or...

Anyway, I finally had to dig up a high school friend who simply wants to see Yankee Stadium and couldn't care less about this game. It was either that or my wife, who would be bitching and moaning throughout - and I get enough of that every other day of the year.


The bell curve of life.Guess we all have some buddieswhoweren't interested whileinschool and still aren't. My personalexperiencea bit different as most of my buddies (those still alive :) ) are going.

[LeopardBall10]

I can't disagree with you LFN, it will take all types to hit those numbers. But I still have a hard time believing that the average alumni is 1. going to this game or 2. going because they care about the outcome. As a player in The Rivalry it was always the biggest day of any year, but I remember many of my classmates and friends who never made it into Fisher Stadium because they were too drunk to walk. Of course you'll have that in college, but even now, unless you are a fellow football alumni the only reason you go is to have an excuse to party like a college kid.

I think the 150th is just expanding the issue, now instead of a few alums coming back to hang out and drink with friends you have the entire alumni base looking forward for the chance to spend a weekend in NYC, meet up with friends, been seen. There will always be those rabid fans, the ones who actually care about the program, the school, the people but in my experience those are not who attend "events" like this.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW - what about the 20,000 seat soccer stadium that DC United is supposed to be building down at Buzzard Point? Were Georgetown to host one of the "schools in its fight song" (Yale, Holy Cross, Princeton, etc.) at such a facility would it be able to draw 10-12,000?






Unlikely at this point, given the lack of any exposure Georgetown gets locally for football.

Remember, there is no broadcast radio for Georgetown (one of only four I-AA schools so positioned) and no TV coverage. The Washington Post has basically buried all college football coverage beyond Maryland, Virginia Tech, Virginia Tech and Navy to the agate type, and the general awareness for games at Georgetown, Howard, Catholic et al. is next to nothing. This is not the Morning Call or the Express News fighting for attention by promoting the local teams.

To get a crowd of 12,000, you have to draw from the local area, which doesn't have much of a connection to GU despite the apparent incongruity of that statement. When only three percent of the student body comes from DC, and with six local players on the roster, the incentive to travel to Southwest DC isn't there. Add in the relatively limited interest from local alumni from the schools you mention, and the demand isn't there.

It would really help to have a major college talent that attracted attention from walk-up customers, but I think many see that as unlikely if Georgetown remains under the current PL admissions and/or funding umbrella. There is an apocryphal story that former NFL QB Colt Brennan had an interest in playing at Georgetown before he ended up walking on at Colorado, but for the most part the talent goes elsewhere every year. Or, as Billy Packer once said about another sport at Georgetown, "I think they need a superstar, [but] why would a superstar go there?"

[carney2]

the general awareness for games at Georgetown, Howard, Catholic et al. is next to nothing.

I was "trapped" in a Metro car a few years ago with a lot of Howard kids returning to campus from one of the LARGE DC stadiums after a Howard-Morgan State (or some such) game. It was fun. Those kids were excited. No lack of awareness that day.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I was "trapped" in a Metro car a few years ago with a lot of Howard kids returning to campus from one of the LARGE DC stadiums after a Howard-Morgan State (or some such) game. It was fun. Those kids were excited. No lack of awareness that day.

Howard has at least one big homecoming event that is focused around a football game, I know because I attended one with my son (I think the visitor was NCAT). Howard's stadium (which is a train ride away from Georgetown) was packed that day despite a late rainstorm.

Howard also has played in the DC Classic at RFK (I think) as well.

Events like that are why one sincerely hopes that Howard, the MEAC and other HBCU's are a continuing part of FCS. Those games are a boatload o' fun.

[Southsider]

Countering the "consensus" that Lafayette-Lehigh No 150 has grabbed the hearts and souls of all alums, here's my tale of woe. All - as in 100% - of my usual list of cronies has refused to go. The excuses range from

"All of the tailgating and post-game traditions have been ruined."

to

"I'm not going all the way in there."

to my personal favorite

"It'll be cold."

That last one tells me that I don't know too many people who would have gutted it through Valley Forge or Bastogne or...

Anyway, I finally had to dig up a high school friend who simply wants to see Yankee Stadium and couldn't care less about this game. It was either that or my wife, who would be bitching and moaning throughout - and I get enough of that every other day of the year.

LOL.......so true. See, the folks on this Board have so much in commonxlolx
xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

Howard has one game at RFK Stadium (read=subsidized by AT&T) plus its Homecoming game, which is more about hip-hop than football. The culture and storyline of Howard as the black college mecca is intertwined with that game and much less so for the other games on the schedule, which is why the idea of a series with Georgetown was met with such apathy.

Courtland Milloy of the Post said as much: "And they call Howard the "mecca" of historically black colleges and universities? Do they think that students make a pilgrimage there to pray? Or do they come to preen and party?"

http://wapo.st/1pdYzcK

[Go Green]

Courtland Milloy of the Post said as much: "And they call Howard the "mecca" of historically black colleges and universities? Do they think that students make a pilgrimage there to pray? Or do they come to preen and party?"

http://wapo.st/1pdYzcK

That column was hysterical! Absolute gold!!

That being said, it's hard to laugh too much given that Howard faces some very harsh realities today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/education/edlife/a-historically-black-college-is-rocked-by-the-economy-infighting-and-a-changing-demographic.html?_r=0

Not sure much (if any) progress has been made since the NYT article.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Howard has one game at RFK Stadium (read=subsidized by AT&T) plus its Homecoming game, which is more about hip-hop than football. The culture and storyline of Howard as the black college mecca is intertwined with that game and much less so for the other games on the schedule, which is why the idea of a series with Georgetown was met with such apathy.

Courtland Milloy of the Post said as much: "And they call Howard the "mecca" of historically black colleges and universities? Do they think that students make a pilgrimage there to pray? Or do they come to preen and party?"

http://wapo.st/1pdYzcK


"Fest fans were plenty upset that Juicy J didn’t get to perform the Three 6 Mafia’s Oscar-winning song, 'It’s Hard Out Here for a Pimp' . . . To be fair, other homecoming events went off pretty much without a hitch - There was a panel discussion, called the 'Entertainment Power Summit,' hosted by someone named Charlamagne Tha God. So you know that had to be special."

And from the WP, no less. As an enthusiast of judicious snark, I find this compelling.

[DFW HOYA]

That being said, it's hard to laugh too much given that Howard faces some very harsh realities today.


And yet, one of the grossly underrported stories about the continuing mismanagement at Howard is this point: "Though it is a private university, Howard has enjoyed special appropriations from the federal government — about $200 million a year over the last decade."

If any private college received $2 billion in direct taxpayer subsidies since 2004 and still kept making these mistakes, people would be demanding answers. At Howard, it's shrugged off by the school president.

[Go Green]

"Fest fans were plenty upset that Juicy J didn’t get to perform the Three 6 Mafia’s Oscar-winning song, 'It’s Hard Out Here for a Pimp' . . . To be fair, other homecoming events went off pretty much without a hitch - There was a panel discussion, called the 'Entertainment Power Summit,' hosted by someone named Charlamagne Tha God. So you know that had to be special."

And from the WP, no less. As an enthusiast of judicious snark, I find this compelling.

My personal favorite:

Thousands of students and visitors had gathered Friday on the school “Yard” in front of the grand Frederick Douglass Hall. Scheduled to perform was a lineup of rappers whose confrontational and competitive prose would have set Douglass, the great orator and abolitionist, on his heels.

Indeed, if the gate crashers hadn’t stopped the show, Yardfest headliner Bone Thugs-n-Harmony could have demolished Douglass’s claims about the sanctity of black life with its hit “Mo’ Murda.”

What could Douglass say to that? Obviously, nothing that would win over Howard Yardfest fans.

Indeed. :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1) Unlike many HBCU's Howard actually has an endowment, and a fairly significant one. That they get that PLUS the appropriations AND the fact there seems to be gross mismanagement is a real concern.

2) The District is no stranger to corrupt University presidents. American University's former president, Benjamin Ladner, used AU university funds to support his "lavish lifestyle" and (srguably) almost took it under. His severance package after being forced out? $3.75 Million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Ladner

3) I keep thinking, "If Howard is in trouble, what chance do the other HBCU's have?" Howard has a lot going for it: proximity to Capitol Hill, a world-class law department, and a long history as a center of Afro-American policy. Some HBCU's have a hard time competing against a world that is becoming more and more integrated, but Howard has genuine unique qualities that should make it extremely competitive for students.

[DFW HOYA]

2) The District is no stranger to corrupt University presidents. American University's former president, Benjamin Ladner, used AU university funds to support his "lavish lifestyle" and (srguably) almost took it under. His severance package after being forced out? $3.75 Million.

American was in no financial danger from Ladner's hiring of a personal chef and frequent trips to France, but it was yet another case of an AU president forced out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Berendzen#Scandal

[Go Green]

And yet, one of the grossly underrported stories about the continuing mismanagement at Howard is this point: "Though it is a private university, Howard has enjoyed special appropriations from the federal government — about $200 million a year over the last decade."



Gallaudet has a similar setup. Maybe not $200M a year, but quite a bit from the federal government.

But if there is corruption going on over there, nobody hears about it (ok, bad joke).

[Model Citizen]

Coach Susan may be the first coach in history gunning to go 0-0-11 with nothing but scoreless ties on his record.

Ties? I guess you're just riffing.

[Model Citizen]

Georgetown will end up as an independent with a very similar schedule. It's the only feasible option.

What on Earth makes you think the Patriot Leaguers would reserve October/November Saturdays for Georgetown if the Hoyas were not in the PL? Delusional.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What on Earth makes you think the Patriot Leaguers would reserve October/November Saturdays for Georgetown if the Hoyas were not in the PL? Delusional.

My recollection of the argument is that (some of) the PL is to become occasional filler only; the New Hoya Order has the Ivy League scrambling over one another to fill their October/November Saturdays with trips to Multi-Sport Field. Particularly interesting will be the prime weekends offered up by Yale, given that institution's historic, loving embrace of the Catholics.

[RichH2]

The demise of GU football in the PL may be an unavoidably casualty of PL move to schollies . Since summer is upon us it may be time to start our annual expansion thread to rehash all the opinions,options and fantasy that we have been posting for the last 3 years.xcoolxxblahxxblahxxbangx

[Bogus Megapardus]

The demise of GU football in the PL may be an unavoidably casualty of PL move to schollies . Since summer is upon us it may be time to start our annual expansion thread to rehash all the opinions,options and fantasy that we have been posting for the last 3 years.xcoolxxblahxxblahxxbangx

The discussion now is different than in the past. The PL would be looking for one or two football-only members rather than full members.

[RichH2]

The discussion now is different than in the past. The PL would be looking for one or two football-only members rather than full members.
;) and so it starts. Thks Bogie.

[Go...gate]

The discussion now is different than in the past. The PL would be looking for one or two football-only members rather than full members.

Unless Loyola (still a highly dubious addition to the loop, IMO) and BU want to field a football team.

[Go Green]

Unless Loyola (still a highly dubious addition to the loop, IMO) and BU want to field a football team.

Is that a dis at American?

[DFW HOYA]

The discussion now is different than in the past. The PL would be looking for one or two football-only members rather than full members.

There's a solution for this that, like scholarships, will force the PL to consider abandoning a core principle, namely, the Ivy Index. Make that change, and half the CAA will be at the front door in Center Valley and Georgetown probably can justify hanging around as well.

There will be those that say it simply can't be done, that it abandons the lofty ideals of Likins and Brooks. Of course, that's what they said about scholarships, too.

[RichH2]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;2110453]There's a solution for this that, like oscholarships, will force the PL to consider abandoning a core principle, namely, the Ivy Index. Make that change, and half the CAA will be at the front door in Center Valley and Georgetown probably can justify hanging around as well.

There will be those that say it simply can't be done, that it abandons the lofty ideals of Likins and Brooks. Of course, that's what they said about scholarship
Little doubt that AI can be modified. Heck,just go back to school specific index w\o PL floor. As long as recruits fit w\in each schools standards, no bar on recruiting. Burden then falls on PL to admit new members that are comparable academically. Doubt PL will ever be only a sports conference.
Schools beating down our door to get in? Really dont think so :) Actually. redshirt rule as much of a stumbling block.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It will be interesting as to what BU and Harvard say about Boston's "athlete bill of rights" effort, with essentially gives athletes scholarships for a five year period to graduate. It essentially assumes that ALL sports, revenue or no, allow redshirting, and if Harvard and BU are mandated to do it, don't the IL (and then the PL) basically have to adopt it as law?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Is that a dis at American?

PL fans never seem to remember that American U. is part of the PL - seriously. They're like a useless, forgotten appendage. The tonsil of the Patriot League. Nobody even is sure what they play.

It's a shame because their fans and their athletic culture really add so much to the league's dynamic.

[RichH2]

PL fans never seem to remember that American U. is part of the PL - seriously. They're like a useless, forgotten appendage. The tonsil of the Patriot League. Nobody even is sure what they play.

It's a shame because their fans and their athletic culture really add so much to the league's dynamic.

xchinscratchxxnutsx Well,of course,remind me where are they located againxconfusedx

[DFW HOYA]

Little doubt that AI can be modified. Heck,just go back to school specific index w\o PL floor. As long as recruits fit w\in each schools standards, no bar on recruiting. Burden then falls on PL to admit new members that are comparable academically. Doubt PL will ever be only a sports conference.

You can't have it both ways. Either its "as long as recruits fit w\in each schools standards, no bar on recruiting" or "a school specific index". If Villanova or W&M want to admit a student they want to admit someone with a 1000 SAT and the candidate meets its scrutiny, an index is basically telling them they can't. No one seems to be bothered if a 1000 kid plays baseball or runs track at Villanova or Georgetown, but if it's football, all sorts of wailing and hand-wringing follow.

[carney2]

You can't have it both ways. Either its "as long as recruits fit w\in each schools standards, no bar on recruiting" or "a school specific index". If Villanova or W&M want to admit a student they want to admit someone with a 1000 SAT and the candidate meets its scrutiny, an index is basically telling them they can't. No one seems to be bothered if a 1000 kid plays baseball or runs track at Villanova or Georgetown, but if it's football, all sorts of wailing and hand-wringing follow.

Football is the litmus test and the faculty's perpetual hard on. They should consult a physician because their erection has lasted way longer than 4 hours. The AI however can be flexible and even exist in a non-existent way to appease the purists if it comes to that. Red-shirting, on the other hand, is a real stumbling block in the Patriot League. Four of the five core schools would be at a significant disadvantage if it were allowed.

[MplsBison]

Here's an idea: what if the Patriot League abolished the AI and any other league associated policies related to disallowing football recruits who don't meet arbitrary standards and instead asked the NCAA to apply a higher standard of the APR to the league schools? For example, instead of the 930 (or 910 for SWAC schools), they could ask for a minimum 970 APR.

Here's what that would mean. If any Patriot school tried to recruit a bunch of players who came into school, found it was way too hard and failed all their courses in the fall, then dropped out of school in bad academic standing - it would cause the APR to drop significantly. If the minimum requirement were set high enough (not sure if 970 is correct), then it would essentially prevent any school from recruiting any athlete that could not pass courses at the given institution.

How is that not perfect? You recruit kids who aren't smart enough for the school -> they fail and drop out -> your APR goes below the high-standard floor -> you become ineligible.

On the other hand, if you recruit kids who can pass classes and still play ball, then you win. This in theory should open up more kids with more football talent to be recruited. Because I doubt highly that any high school player not meeting the current PL AI minimum is incapable of passing courses at PL schools. As rising water lifts all ships, so too should an intellectual/academic culture raise a kid's desire to study hard and love learning.

[RichH2]

You can't have it both ways. Either its "as long as recruits fit w\in each schools standards, no bar on recruiting" or "a school specific index". If Villanova or W&M want to admit a student they want to admit someone with a 1000 SAT and the candidate meets its scrutiny, an index is basically telling them they can't. No one seems to be bothered if a 1000 kid plays baseball or runs track at Villanova or Georgetown, but if it's football, all sorts of wailing and hand-wringing follow.

They are the same criteria DFW ,not mutually exclusive descriptions. Arguing semantics, the term index limited as here to each school would not otherwise preclude any recruit that could be recruited under school standards. Youseem tobe assuming an index created by criteria outside of that school's admissions plolicies. That is not what I am saying. PL can return to an index measuring each recruit class against that schools frosh class profile rather than a PL wide AI floor.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Football is the litmus test and the faculty's perpetual hard on. They should consult a physician because their erection has lasted way longer than 4 hours. The AI however can be flexible and even exist in a non-existent way to appease the purists if it comes to that. Red-shirting, on the other hand, is a real stumbling block in the Patriot League. Four of the five core schools would be at a significant disadvantage if it were allowed.

I agree with carney here. The AI banding system does have some flexibility baked in, but the no red-shirting rule is definitely a non-starter for a significant number of schools.

I'll bring it up again, though:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24567279/boston-tries-to-be-1st-city-with-college-athlete-bill-of-rights


Boston is trying to become the first city to provide health care and educational rights to college athletes beyond what the NCAA requires.



Legislation has been enacted or proposed at the federal and state level for a “College Athlete Bill of Rights.” But Boston City Councilor Josh Zakim has taken the unique step of going local. He filed a pair of ordinances Friday related to the educational and health rights for athletes who play college sports in Boston. Among the potential laws for Boston universities:



• Athletes would receive as much as a fifth full year of institutional financial aid if they haven't graduated yet, assuming they are not academically ineligible or did not violate the university's student disciplinary policy. If an athletic scholarship is not renewed for a reason other than ineligibility or discipline, the university would have to provide an equivalent scholarship for up to five years.

So if this passes, now BU needs to make scholarships equivalent for a five-year period - which is, in effect, redshirting. Example: BU has a freshman hockey player. He by Boston law is required to have his scholarship eligible for five years after matriculating. The BU hockey coaches say, well, we have to provide it to him anyway, so why not just have him spend the first year getting his academic house in order? Voila: redshirting. For all sports.

This is a huge advantage for BU sports across the board, so how does it not become league policy?

Further complicating matters is if Cambridge, MA gets in on the fun. Will Harvard's athletes have guaranteed scholarships for 5 years? If Harvard does it, don't the other IL schools, realistically, have to follow suit? And if the entire IL allows redshirting, won't the PL have to offer it a week later?

[DFW HOYA]

Presented without further comment, my alternative to the AI:

"Standards are encouraged for each member institution to demonstrate that the student-athletes in each entering class are representative of their class. Enrolling students that wish to participate on intercollegiate teams sponsored by the League must demonstrate a graduation rank in the upper 20th percentile of their high school class for any offer of merit-based financial aid award above need, or, in schools which do not provide class rank, a grade point average of 3.4 or above on a 4.0 scale. Any enrolling student that does not meet these criteria but has otherwise been accepted for admission is eligible to receive eligible financial aid offered by the member institution, insofar as the aid does not involve a merit-based award based on athletic performance."

[CFBfan]

Presented without further comment, my alternative to the AI:

"Standards are encouraged for each member institution to demonstrate that the student-athletes in each entering class are representative of their class. Enrolling students that wish to participate on intercollegiate teams sponsored by the League must demonstrate a graduation rank in the upper 20th percentile of their high school class for any offer of merit-based financial aid award above need, or, in schools which do not provide class rank, a grade point average of 3.4 or above on a 4.0 scale. Any enrolling student that does not meet these criteria but has otherwise been accepted for admission is eligible to receive eligible financial aid offered by the member institution, insofar as the aid does not involve a merit-based award based on athletic performance."

3.4 or higher for MERIT aid is a bad idea!

[RichH2]

Wow,utpian from academics POV,disastrous from AD's POV and unrealistic from the rest of us. The inherent. elitism bothers me.

[Model Citizen]

3.4 or higher for MERIT aid is a bad idea!

Great idea for Georgetown. Would they have any money to offer?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just my opinion, not based on any particular knowledge, facts or study - but it seems to me that Colgate (2,927 students) Lafayette (2,488) and Holy Cross (2,872) (three of the Founding Five) would have a lot to lose were the AI to be abandoned. Each has less than 3,000 students and each sponsors more than 20 Division I sports. That means 20-25 percent of the student body participates in athletics. The pressure to compromise admission standards would intensify quite radically were these schools to begin competing for recruits without an externally-imposed academic floor. The larger institutions - Boston U. (29,935 students), Georgetown (17,130) and Fordham (15,189) - easily can absorb some "special admits" without affecting their overall profile. The small schools cannot do so.

The largest school in the PL when it was created was Lehigh; the smallest was Davidson. There wasn't all that much enrollment difference between those two at the time. The Academic Index was the sensible way for those small colleges to participate in Division I because it represented an objective, league-wide check on the impulse to reach down just a little bit more each year in order to land a prized recruit. The AI remains effective in that regard; IMHO the AI is the only thing that enables the smallest PL schools to remain in (and remain competitive within) the league that they created. That league has remained successful and indeed has thrived for thirty years and counting with relatively stable membership so something must be working.

Question - which PL members do posters here believe would vote in favor of scrapping the AI? I'm almost certain that Army, Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh and Navy are (and remain) members in large part because of the Academic Index. While less certain, it seems to me that recently-ordained Loyola (6,080 students) joined because the AI put brake on the pressure to recruit students falling below ideal minimums. That leaves the three biggies (Boston U., Georgetown and Fordham), American U. (which is damn lucky to be here and really has nowhere else to go) and Holy Cross (whose alums frequently are prone to pressuring their administration to dump both the Academic Index and the Patriot League itself).

[RichH2]

Unlikely Cross would be in favor of scrapping AI. Agree with the rest of your votes.
Valid point about size differential substantially altering impact of AI. Admit I have no easy anwer there.
The other 2 issues are IMO much more susceptible of. solution, ie financial aid and redshirting.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One thing very germane to the AI discussion, and something that should not be overlooked, is that both Lehigh and Lafayette have spend the better part of 80 years (and some would argue more) differentiating themselves from other schools in regards to recruiting true student-athletes, not having athletics as a semi-pro activity, etc. Lehigh and Lafayette have been imposing limits (if you want to call it that) on their programs almost since the very beginning, even when there was no real governing body.

Having academically-minded athletes is a fundamental part of the DNA of both Lehigh and Lafayette, despite the accusations directed at each other to the contrary for more than 100 years. I think this is why an AI is no big deal to both sides - it's a fundamental part of the history.

In contrast, while Holy Cross is a great school, their dedication to an AI world came largely with Father Brooks, and it's a decision that still has passionate defenders and detractors even today. And for Georgetown and Fordham the same type of thing applies, but only for football, and it's telling that both Fordham and Georgetown choose to operate under a different rule set for, say, men's basketball.

(And that's not to say Colgate and Bucknell don't have a history that's similar to Lehigh and Lafayette, I know they do. I'm just not sure if it reaches all the way back to the 1800s like it does witn L&L).

Basically, there's a reason why the Ivy League approached Lehigh and Lafayette about the formation of the Patriot League, and it has to do with a decision to "be that way" that came decades before, unlike with Holy Cross.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hey boys and girls (and those of you who identify with one of the evolving array of alternate and non-traditional gender classifications) - Ever wonder if you have what it takes to get into and play at a Patriot League school today?

Never? Not even once? I didn't think so. Why on earth would you waste your time on such a thing? Nevertheless you still can calculate your very own Academic Index - for real - with this handy "College Confidential" Academic Index calculator:

http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index3.htm

[Bogus Megapardus]

One thing very germane to the AI discussion, and something that should not be overlooked, is that both Lehigh and Lafayette have spend the better part of 80 years (and some would argue more) differentiating themselves from other schools in regards to recruiting true student-athletes, not having athletics as a semi-pro activity, etc. Lehigh and Lafayette have been imposing limits (if you want to call it that) on their programs almost since the very beginning, even when there was no real governing body.

Having academically-minded athletes is a fundamental part of the DNA of both Lehigh and Lafayette, despite the accusations directed at each other to the contrary for more than 100 years. I think this is why an AI is no big deal to both sides - it's a fundamental part of the history.

In contrast, while Holy Cross is a great school, their dedication to an AI world came largely with Father Brooks, and it's a decision that still has passionate defenders and detractors even today. And for Georgetown and Fordham the same type of thing applies, but only for football, and it's telling that both Fordham and Georgetown choose to operate under a different rule set for, say, men's basketball.

(And that's not to say Colgate and Bucknell don't have a history that's similar to Lehigh and Lafayette, I know they do. I'm just not sure if it reaches all the way back to the 1800s like it does witn L&L).

Basically, there's a reason why the Ivy League approached Lehigh and Lafayette about the formation of the Patriot League, and it has to do with a decision to "be that way" that came decades before, unlike with Holy Cross.

Ahh . . . but you forget! Penn and Lehigh were at the table when the formation of the NCAA was first discussed and when it was founded. Lafayette was NOT invited - in fact we were specifically dis-invited. There's some suggestion that the creation of NCAA in part was a reaction to the "Fielding Yost Affair" and to a handful of other dubious Pard recruiting "abnormalities" around the turn of the 20th century. We've been much better lately, though . . . . xcoolx

In all seriousness, I agree with your post; it underscores the theory and nature of the Patriot League. One (possibly unanticipated) side effect of the AI has been the league's ability to bring in much larger and more diverse institutions. The AI remains the great equalizer: yes, you can play at American U. or Boston U. but only if you pretty much could have gotten into Colgate to begin with. In fact, if I understand things correctly (which usually I don't), Boston University (and its ilk) no longer will be permitted to fudge the numbers by shielding low-data recruits within "Metropolitan College"-like substructures.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"Fielding Yost Affair"

Lafayette had its Fieldling Yost affair. Lehigh had it's own Fielding Yost-like athletes. And at the time, both schools used as justification how Harvard, Yale and Princeton were much, much worse - and they were!

Even in the 1880s, Penn was fudging the numbers.


“In the first game against Pennsylvania, there were on the opposing team three graduates, two of whom were married men, and none of whom were on the rolls of the college represented or in any way connected with it,. There is no remedy for this injustice but in the concerted action of the colleges immediately concerned, yet as the general sentiment is markedly in disfavor of such practices, it is to be hoped they will not long continue. The tendency toward professionalism, so marked of late years is one of the gravest evils, and if unchecked will not only bring college athletics into general ill-repute but will destroy their truly excellent purpose just as it is becoming fairly recognized.”

- Lehigh Burr, 1889

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette had its Fieldling Yost affair. Lehigh had it's own Fielding Yost-like athletes. And at the time, both schools used as justification how Harvard, Yale and Princeton were much, much worse - and they were!

Even in the 1880s, Penn was fudging the numbers.

The compulsion to beat Penn in particular (as well as Princeton, Navy, Rutgers, etc.) was so strong that we dipped down below the usual standards to land Fielding Yost (no doubt with a full scholarship). And it worked - Lafayette became the first non-Ivy to win a national collegiate football championship. But that experience merely underscores today's need for the Academic Index.



NB: We clobbered Georgetown, 23-0, in 1902 - a season in which Georgetown destroyed North Carolina and VMI and shut out Navy, Maryland and West Virginia. But of course we weren't Georgetown's "peers" so it doesn't count. :p

[Bogus Megapardus]

One thing very germane to the AI discussion

BTW, the damn Germans got nothin' to do with it.





http://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/buford-t-justice-smokey-and-the-bandit.jpg?w=600&h=324

[DFW HOYA]

Great idea for Georgetown. Would they have any money to offer?

Georgetown offers no merit aid in admissions.

That having been said, there are three issues in play:

1. To compete (not just show up) in the PL, Georgetown must be at 60 scholarships.
2. Absent #1, Georgetown needs to recruit below or without the current AI firewall to compete.
3. Absent #1 or #2, Georgetown must consider a different schedule of opponents to be viable.

[MplsBison]

I agree with carney here. The AI banding system does have some flexibility baked in, but the no red-shirting rule is definitely a non-starter for a significant number of schools.

I'll bring it up again, though:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24567279/boston-tries-to-be-1st-city-with-college-athlete-bill-of-rights



So if this passes, now BU needs to make scholarships equivalent for a five-year period - which is, in effect, redshirting. Example: BU has a freshman hockey player. He by Boston law is required to have his scholarship eligible for five years after matriculating. The BU hockey coaches say, well, we have to provide it to him anyway, so why not just have him spend the first year getting his academic house in order? Voila: redshirting. For all sports.

This is a huge advantage for BU sports across the board, so how does it not become league policy?

Further complicating matters is if Cambridge, MA gets in on the fun. Will Harvard's athletes have guaranteed scholarships for 5 years? If Harvard does it, don't the other IL schools, realistically, have to follow suit? And if the entire IL allows redshirting, won't the PL have to offer it a week later?[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

Your example doesn't quite work the way you think it does. Actual redshirting means the player is a participating member of the team in all aspects (practices, workouts, meetings, etc.) except that he is ineligible for games.

So in the context of conferences that have some rule disallowing players from being participating members for more than four seasons on teams competing in conference sanction sports, that would simply mean that the team and the player would have to choose one scholarship year that the player was not participating on the team. That means no practicing with the team, no workouts with the team, no meetings with the team or coaches, no dressing up for home games, no traveling for away games, and so on.

For example, a player could be on the team the first four years out of high school and then spend the last year just going to school. Or a player could spend the first year adjusting to school, working out on his own, etc.

I would think for a high-skills intensive sport like hockey they would want to go with the former route, while for basketball the later route could probably be used since a player can always go into a gym and do drills, shoot and even play pickup games.

[van]

Georgetown offers no merit aid in admissions.

That having been said, there are three issues in play:

1. To compete (not just show up) in the PL, Georgetown must be at 60 scholarships.
2. Absent #1, Georgetown needs to recruit below or without the current AI firewall to compete.
3. Absent #1 or #2, Georgetown must consider a different schedule of opponents to be viable.

No argument that Hoyas are at a disadvantage, but #1 is a bit of a stretch. PL teams have competed with less than 60 scholarships and Hoyas certainly could compete with less than 60, although not with the 10 to 20 equivalencies they are reported to use. Hoyas have some recruiting advantages based on academics and along with some modest improvement in financial support they could be competitive.

[MplsBison]

Just my opinion, not based on any particular knowledge, facts or study - but it seems to me that Colgate (2,927 students) Lafayette (2,488) and Holy Cross (2,872) (three of the Founding Five) would have a lot to lose were the AI to be abandoned. Each has less than 3,000 students and each sponsors more than 20 Division I sports. That means 20-25 percent of the student body participates in athletics. The pressure to compromise admission standards would intensify quite radically were these schools to begin competing for recruits without an externally-imposed academic floor. The larger institutions - Boston U. (29,935 students), Georgetown (17,130) and Fordham (15,189) - easily can absorb some "special admits" without affecting their overall profile. The small schools cannot do so.

The largest school in the PL when it was created was Lehigh; the smallest was Davidson. There wasn't all that much enrollment difference between those two at the time. The Academic Index was the sensible way for those small colleges to participate in Division I because it represented an objective, league-wide check on the impulse to reach down just a little bit more each year in order to land a prized recruit. The AI remains effective in that regard; IMHO the AI is the only thing that enables the smallest PL schools to remain in (and remain competitive within) the league that they created. That league has remained successful and indeed has thrived for thirty years and counting with relatively stable membership so something must be working.

Question - which PL members do posters here believe would vote in favor of scrapping the AI? I'm almost certain that Army, Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh and Navy are (and remain) members in large part because of the Academic Index. While less certain, it seems to me that recently-ordained Loyola (6,080 students) joined because the AI put brake on the pressure to recruit students falling below ideal minimums. That leaves the three biggies (Boston U., Georgetown and Fordham), American U. (which is damn lucky to be here and really has nowhere else to go) and Holy Cross (whose alums frequently are prone to pressuring their administration to dump both the Academic Index and the Patriot League itself).

A solution to the problem you describe may exist and may be easier than you think. Follow me for a second.

When you say "The larger institutions ... easily can absorb some 'special admits' without affecting their overall profile. The small schools cannot do so." what you mean is that because 25% of the Lafayette student body participates in athletics, if that 25% were to suddenly start showing up to campus with significantly lower high school achievements (GPA, class rank, test scores) than the other 75% then it would in turn significantly lower the equivalent average statistics for the incoming class.

And that (...somehow....) makes Lafayette seem less desirable to the high school "academic all-stars" in NE that come to Lafayette for undergraduate education.


OK - then here's all you have to do: don't count athletes in the average incoming class statistics. Seriously. You'll be more formal and nuanced about it, of course. Something like "those incoming students choosing to take on the responsibilities of both academics and a strenuous, extracurricular activity ... " or whatever.

Or if you don't want to be that blunt, then you could also just simply exclude those "special admits" (as you call them) from the statistics. In other words, any recruited athlete that very obviously is not representative of the incoming Lafayette academic class shall then be excluded from such statistics. And so on.

[MplsBison]

Georgetown offers no merit aid in admissions.

That having been said, there are three issues in play:

1. To compete (not just show up) in the PL, Georgetown must be at 60 scholarships.
2. Absent #1, Georgetown needs to recruit below or without the current AI firewall to compete.
3. Absent #1 or #2, Georgetown must consider a different schedule of opponents to be viable.

So a student who graduates #1 in his class at a competitive high school, 5.0 GPA (4.0 in all AP classes), perfect score on the SAT and plenty of extra curriculars (forensics, math team, etc.) and who comes from a wealthy family, who chooses to enroll at Georgetown instead of Ivy schools ... is given nothing from the school??

Does that seem messed up to anyone else?

[RichH2]

Georgetown offers no merit aid in admissions.

That having been said, there are three issues in play:

1. To compete (not just show up) in the PL, Georgetown must be at 60 scholarships.
2. Absent #1, Georgetown needs to recruit below or without the current AI firewall to compete.
3. Absent #1 or #2, Georgetown must consider a different schedule oohof opponents to be viable.

Not really. 60 is not a magic number nor an absolute requirement. Something more than now. Heck,GU could compete w need equivalencies. The issue is how much GU will or can invest. AI not a reason or a savior. The floor is well below GU's current admission standards. Should PL jigger bands as IL does to help? Do you really think that will do the trick without money.

[Model Citizen]

So a student who graduates #1 in his class at a competitive high school, 5.0 GPA (4.0 in all AP classes), perfect score on the SAT and plenty of extra curriculars (forensics, math team, etc.) and who comes from a wealthy family, who chooses to enroll at Georgetown instead of Ivy schools ... is given nothing from the school??

Does that seem messed up to anyone else?

Same situation at Ivy League schools. As they consider everyone they admit to be elite, it makes no sense to distinguish between the kid who got the 3.9 at a school without weighted GPAs and your 5.0 student.

In reality, the AIs in the Ivy and Patriot Leagues allow athletes to be admitted who wouldn't otherwise have a prayer of getting in.

Academic merit aid comes into play with non-scholarship programs at schools that admit B students. At Morehead State, Butler, most D-III schools, etc. someone with at 3.7 clearly stands out. Those schools will discount tuition for them--"Presidential Scholarship" is a common name for this type of merit aid.

[Model Citizen]

There's already considerable academic fraud with parents and high schools trying to get their kids into elite schools. If you also had this population of similarly qualified applicants competing for academic merit aid, the level of shenanigans would be unreal.

[Bogus Megapardus]

In reality, the AIs in the Ivy and Patriot Leagues allow athletes to be admitted who wouldn't otherwise have a prayer of getting in.

That's absolutely correct and it's designed that way. Remember, though, that for every player admitted from a "low band" you have to take a player from a "high band." Case in point - this year Lafayette used one of its scholarships (at least a partial) on a long snapper from one of the elite northeastern boarding schools. He's a 4.5 star rated long snapper but you pretty much can be assured that the kid has a galactic, off-the-charts academic profile.* That's needed under the Academic Index to balance, for example, a lightning-fast tailback from Chicago or a 6-5 WR from Denver who might have been an AI stretch.




* EDIT - Also it looks as if the kid was an All-Mid Atlantic Prep defensive tackle in addition to being a 4.5 star long snapper, and the kid's uncle has three Super Bowl rings. Just a hunch here, but I'd imagine that those things count, too. Maybe he can be buds with Deuce Gruden.

[MplsBison]

Same situation at Ivy League schools. As they consider everyone they admit to be elite, it makes no sense to distinguish between the kid who got the 3.9 at a school without weighted GPAs and your 5.0 student.

In reality, the AIs in the Ivy and Patriot Leagues allow athletes to be admitted who wouldn't otherwise have a prayer of getting in.

Academic merit aid comes into play with non-scholarship programs at schools that admit B students. At Morehead State, Butler, most D-III schools, etc. someone with at 3.7 clearly stands out. Those schools will discount tuition for them--"Presidential Scholarship" is a common name for this type of merit aid.

Thanks for the reply. I understand everything you say and it makes sense.

But I truly was referring to an academic only scenario: the hypothetical student who can literally choose any school in the country and whose family is arbitrarily wealthy enough so that said student can't earn any need-based aid at the school he chooses.

In that case, if said student chooses Georgetown over every other school in the country I just find it incredible, perhaps even rude, that Georgetown would say simply to that student "oh good, you made it! well, anyway ... good luck!" I'd be paying every possible educational expense that student could possibly have! Tuition, fees, room & board, an iPad, pencils, paper ... you name it.

But if that's just the way it is, then that's the way it is I guess.

[MplsBison]

There's already considerable academic fraud with parents and high schools trying to get their kids into elite schools. If you also had this population of similarly qualified applicants competing for academic merit aid, the level of shenanigans would be unreal.

I see your point. But I would just have assumed that such schools would automatically award every one of such elite academic students scholarships of some amount. Sort've like a "welcome to ____ University! We're honored you chose us over many other choices!" That type of thing.

[JoltinJoe]

Some good discussion here, lots of topics and I'll speak to one: rivalries.

One of the reasons PL football has been able to thrive, if not necessarily grow, is the strength of rivalries through the years. Every Lehigh alumnus can remember the annual Lafayette game--yesterday, today, tomorrow. Colgate and Holy Cross have played 75 times over the last 80 seasons. Bucknell has rivalries with nearly every PL school that alumni can recall and remember fondly.

One of the structural impediments Georgetown has is a lack of rivalries across the generations--there really aren't any. In the early 1900's, the big games were Navy, Virginia, VPI. Fast forward 25 years, and the schedule reads Maryland, West Virginia, and BC. And by the time D-III football takes hold in the 1970's, the opponent list includes the likes of Manhattan, Washington & Lee, and Johns Hopkins, with little relevance to alumni of yesteryear. By the 1990's, with Big East basketball ascendant, GU students are watching Iona, Siena, and Canisius with little interest. Two decades later, how do you build an appreciation for PL opponents that are unfamiliar to many fans, given that GU students aren't allowed cars and don't go on road trips? Even the Ivies, who are otherwise popular for scheduling, have little or no athletic history with GU.

Rivalries are to be appreciated, and protected. You don't know what you've got until, well, it isn't there.

Georgetown is Fordham's most-played opponent, and I believe Fordham is Georgetown's most-played opponent.

This game should be the last game of the season for both, scheduled every year on "The Game" Saturday. It would be a step in the right direction to create a football culture at Georgetown.

[2ram]

it's either fix multi-sport or go home for gtown imo.

[DFW HOYA]

it's either fix multi-sport or go home for gtown imo.

Be it ever so humble, it's still much better than its former home, Kehoe Field, which football vacated in 2003 for safety reasons.

"Six years after deeming Kehoe Field unfit for varsity practice, the university is conducting a semester-long study to determine the best way to repair the field, which has deteriorated into a minefield of safety risks."

http://www.thehoya.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/kehoe4.png

http://www.thehoya.com/kehoe-field-an-obstacle-course-of-injury-risks/

[2ram]

looking at that picture makes me question the academic credentials of 'dem hoyas.

[Bogus Megapardus]

looking at that picture makes me question the academic credentials of 'dem hoyas.

Despite all its prowessness and peeraging, Georgetown does not have engineering curricula or offer engineering degrees. Absent from campus might be the whole "I can fix that" culture you'll find prevalent at the science/technology/engineering based schools. So that picture kinda makes sense.

[colorless raider]

Despite all its prowessness and peeraging, Georgetown does not have engineering curricula or offer engineering degrees. Absent from campus might be the whole "I can fix that" culture you'll find prevalent at the science/technology/engineering based schools. So that picture kinda makes sense.

Colgate has no engineering as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colgate has no engineering as well.

Yeah, but Colgate doesn't offer graduate degrees in Unemployed Polling Consultant or Demographic Outreach Intern, either. Which is nice.

[Sader87]

Colgate-Holy Cross should be the last (regular season) game for each school every year. Much discussed but there really is no other PL rivalry (in football), aside from L-L, that comes close in terms of longevity/history etc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Colgate-Holy Cross should be the last (regular season) game for each school every year. Much discussed but there really is no other PL rivalry (in football), aside from L-L, that comes close in terms of longevity/history etc.

Lehigh/Lafayette
Georgetown/Fordham
Cross/Colgate
Bucknell/St Francis (PA)

Glad we got that "Rivalry Week" problem solved. Now, on to resdhirting...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lehigh/Lafayette
Georgetown/Fordham
Cross/Colgate
Bucknell/St Francis (PA)

Glad we got that "Rivalry Week" problem solved. Now, on to resdhirting...

Bucknell/Duquesne, rather than Bucknell/St. Francis, and we have a deal.



EDIT - I just checked . . . believe it or not, Bucknell and St. Francis have never faced one another in football.

[Sader87]

Bucknell-Penn St

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bucknell-Penn St

Sure, or Bucknell/Temple or Bucknell/Cornell. Those are the long term Bison rivals but they're not exactly practical for a season-ending game.

If only Gettysburg had moved to 1-AA and the Patriot League when they had the chance - they were invited and they had every opportunity to do so. Gettysburg is the missing natural rival for Bucknell. Seventy-four games played since 1893, but the last was in 1979. Had Gettysburg tagged along the Bucknell/Gettysburg series would now be over a hundred games. I wonder if Gettysburg regrets its decision.

[MplsBison]

Bucknell - Holy Cross


Once Georgetown demonstrates that it has competitive ambition in football, then it will earn a Patriot League rival.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bucknell - Holy Cross

I don't think so. These things have a "feel" around the PL and Holy Cross/Colgate just seems right. It's a natural rivalry and a game that everyone around our league is interested in. Lehigh/Fordham? Not so much, at least not yet. Colgate/Georgetown? Meh. Lafayette/Holy Cross? We love the game but it hardly makes sparks fly around the league. But Holy Cross/Colgate is one of those games that registers. It should be a season-ender and it should be made into an event.

I would suggest that the trophy could be a Toothbrush in Shining Armor, but that would just denigrate the seriousness of the proposal.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bucknell/SFPA could be a thing only because they're a 2-hour drive from one another on Route 80. I agree that it's odd that they've never played each other.

Duquesne is 4 hours away.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think so. These things have a "feel" around the PL and Holy Cross/Colgate just seems right. It's a natural rivalry and a game that everyone around our league is interested in. Lehigh/Fordham? Not so much, at least not yet. Colgate/Georgetown? Meh. Lafayette/Holy Cross? We love the game but it hardly makes sparks fly around the league. But Holy Cross/Colgate is one of those games that registers. It should be a season-ender and it should be made into an event.

I would suggest that the trophy could be a Toothbrush in Shining Armor, but that would just denigrate the seriousness of the proposal.

One year this game was on the last week of the year and it was a thriller that determined the championship. Dom Randolph's junior year. You'd think the league would have said to make it a regular thing, but... it was not decided to be so.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bucknell/SFPA could be a thing only because they're a 2-hour drive from one another on Route 80. I agree that it's odd that they've never played each other.

Duquesne is 4 hours away.

If that's the case, and since we're going outside conference boundaries, why not make it the "Battle of the 'Nells?" Ithaca and Loretto are exactly the same distance form Lewisburg. The Bucknell/Cornell series began in 1888 and it far predates the formation of either the Ivy or the Patriot. An excellent rivalry all around.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If that's the case, and since we're going outside conference boundaries, why not make it the "Battle of the 'Nells?" Ithaca and Loretto are exactly the same distance form Lewisburg. The Bucknell/Cornell series began in 1888 and it far predates the formation of either the Ivy or the Patriot. An excellent rivalry all around.

I like that idea a lot, and I think of Cornell as Bucknell's "real" rival, but how would Penn handle having a bye week at the end of the year?

Maybe Villanova could play them when Delaware goes FBS. xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I like that idea a lot, and I think of Cornell as Bucknell's "real" rival, but how would Penn handle having a bye week at the end of the year?

I was thinking of that exact issue but then I was reminded that Robin Harris reportedly is chomping at the bit to graft Georgetown into the IL rotation. That would leave everyone with a bye somewhere and would open a space for the Battle of the 'Nells.

[MplsBison]

I don't think so. These things have a "feel" around the PL and Holy Cross/Colgate just seems right. It's a natural rivalry and a game that everyone around our league is interested in. Lehigh/Fordham? Not so much, at least not yet. Colgate/Georgetown? Meh. Lafayette/Holy Cross? We love the game but it hardly makes sparks fly around the league. But Holy Cross/Colgate is one of those games that registers. It should be a season-ender and it should be made into an event.

I would suggest that the trophy could be a Toothbrush in Shining Armor, but that would just denigrate the seriousness of the proposal.

OK, fair enough.

But the main point here is that Georgetown has not earned a place in this new Patriot League "Rivalry Week". They won't fully participate in the league, in terms of competitiveness. So why should they be rewarded with a spot in the showcase? If anything this is the perfect excuse to "tuck them under the rug", so to speak.

[Sader87]

It's a tough call and much debated on our board for years. Colgate makes the most sense historically/institutionally etc. but there is a push for Fordham as they are a bit closer, lot of HC alumni in the NYC-area etc.

We definitely should have one of the two though.....the rotating last game doesn't work and hurts the program to an extent not having a rival.

[Bogus Megapardus]

OK, fair enough.

But the main point here is that Georgetown has not earned a place in this new Patriot League "Rivalry Week". They won't fully participate in the league, in terms of competitiveness. So why should they be rewarded with a spot in the showcase? If anything this is the perfect excuse to "tuck them under the rug", so to speak.

I don't think it's a matter of not "fully participating in the league." They do participate, and they have had some sparks of success now and then. To say that Georgetown doesn't "deserve" a PL "rival" is like saying that Northwestern (of old) doesn't "deserve" a Big Ten rival.

PL fans' beef with Georgetown isn't really due to the scholarship issue. The PL was a non-scholarship conference until two years ago and most of the PL's scholarship players will be seeing their first meaningful playing time this coming season. I think that PL fans have a fairly good understanding of Georgetown's position on scholarships. We know that Georgetown could be reasonably competitive on PL fields without scholarships even if they won't be bringing home any league titles or competing in the FCS playoffs. The model for competitive non-scholarship football, of course, is Ivy - which over the years has been the PL's most common OOC opponents. PL schools have had just a spot of success here and there in the FCS playoffs but our primary goal in the past always has been the PL title and success against Ivy. I don't speak for Georgetown fans but it seems to me that a winning PL record and a couple of Ivy wins would meet a lot of the program's (and their fans') objectives for football. They don't need (or want) to face NDSU or Eastern Washington. I get that completely.

Our main beef with Georgetown (and your posts acknowledge this to some extent) is that Georgetown doesn't seem to view Patriot League football - not football in general but PL football in particular - as earnestly as do the remaining PL schools. Georgetown doesn't budget football at anywhere near the level of other PL schools. There's a general notion amongst PL fans (not based on any specific knowledge) that Georgetown considers its below-meager facilities (no bathrooms, no press facilities, condemnable visitor's stands, overall aesthetics) to be "good enough" for the PL. That can be a bit off-putting. The same notion suggests that Georgetown suddenly would discover the means to upgrade its football facilities quite dramatically were it to contract (somehow) to playing some variety of a "fixed" Ivy schedule as an independent.

In the "modern era" Georgetown was a club program and then a DIII football program until the implementation of Dayton Rule. It then helped charter the MAAC football conference in 1993. That conference, in which the Hoyas were very successful, had a decidedly low-cost, non-scholarship objective. For a variety of reasons - one of which surely was the instability, and an outlook toward the impending demise, of MAAC football - Georgetown signed up with the PL. And the PL was more than happy to have the Hoyas. Another reason for Georgetown's move, as it stated in its press releases, was that the PL gave Georgetown the opportunity to compete against "peer" schools and, perhaps more importantly, to start scheduling Ivy games. The latter is something that Georgetown simply could not have done without joining the PL.

Georgetown discovered that the PL was exponentially more competitive than the MAAC and they struggled for a decade. Then, just as the Hoyas were staring to have a bit of PL success, the PL "changed the rules on them," so to speak, by starting to discuss scholarships. The only other PL football school that had a comparable DIII history was Fordham - and it was Fordham that lead the charge to PL scholarships. All of the other PL football schools, though small and academically-oriented, had remained dedicated to DI-level football throughout their histories (a characteristic that continues to define - and separate - that small group if colleges from many other nominally "similar" places in the northeast and elsewhere). So Georgetown now finds itself, rather suddenly, at a competitive disadvantage once again. It wasn't prepared to "lead the charge" in funding and scholarships like Fordham, and it doesn't have the institutional inertia, football-wise, of the other PL schools. So the hole is a little deeper for Georgetown than for, say, Lafayette or Holy Cross (two schools that were reported to be against PL scholarships, at least initially).

There's little question that Georgetown must increase its football spending, albeit modestly, with competitive grants-in-aid and coach's salaries if it wants to vie for comparatively modest success in the Patriot League - even if it does not award athletic merit scholarships. It must also commit to football-specific capital expenditures in addition to the new $60 million Athletic Center now under way (which will benefit football as well as other sports). The football-specific capital expenditures needn't (and shouldn't) be "grand." Some new stands, bathroom facilities, press facilities, signs and graphics, perhaps a scoreboard and cleaning up the place to give it a "finished look" will do just fine.

I certainly hope that Georgetown stays and competes in the league (even if we lose the occasional "FiOS Game" - *gulp*). Judging from the posts here and on other PL boards, the vast majority of other PL fans seem to feel the same way.

[2ram]

fordham has a rival in columbia already... however, depending on who you ask, that may not last much longer.

i agree with an above post, g-town isn't going to get a rival until it actually commits to football in a more meaningful way.

fordham-holy cross seems like a good fit, we used to play them last game of the year every year. this year it's going to be army though, and i think navy the next?

[MplsBison]

I don't think it's a matter of not "fully participating in the league." They do participate, and they have had some sparks of success now and then. To say that Georgetown doesn't "deserve" a PL "rival" is like saying that Northwestern (of old) doesn't "deserve" a Big Ten rival.

PL fans' beef with Georgetown isn't really due to the scholarship issue. The PL was a non-scholarship conference until two years ago and most of the PL's scholarship players will be seeing their first meaningful playing time this coming season. I think that PL fans have a fairly good understanding of Georgetown's position on scholarships. We know that Georgetown could be reasonably competitive on PL fields without scholarships even if they won't be bringing home any league titles or competing in the FCS playoffs. The model for competitive non-scholarship football, of course, is Ivy - which over the years has been the PL's most common OOC opponents. PL schools have had just a spot of success here and there in the FCS playoffs but our primary goal in the past always has been the PL title and success against Ivy. I don't speak for Georgetown fans but it seems to me that a winning PL record and a couple of Ivy wins would meet a lot of the program's (and their fans') objectives for football. They don't need (or want) to face NDSU or Eastern Washington. I get that completely.

Our main beef with Georgetown (and your posts acknowledge this to some extent) is that Georgetown doesn't seem to view Patriot League football - not football in general but PL football in particular - as earnestly as do the remaining PL schools. Georgetown doesn't budget football at anywhere near the level of other PL schools. There's a general notion amongst PL fans (not based on any specific knowledge) that Georgetown considers its below-meager facilities (no bathrooms, no press facilities, condemnable visitor's stands, overall aesthetics) to be "good enough" for the PL. That can be a bit off-putting. The same notion suggests that Georgetown suddenly would discover the means to upgrade its football facilities quite dramatically were it to contract (somehow) to playing some variety of a "fixed" Ivy schedule as an independent.

In the "modern era" Georgetown was a club program and then a DIII football program until the implementation of Dayton Rule. It then helped charter the MAAC football conference in 1993. That conference, in which the Hoyas were very successful, had a decidedly low-cost, non-scholarship objective. For a variety of reasons - one of which surely was the instability, and an outlook toward the impending demise, of MAAC football - Georgetown signed up with the PL. And the PL was more than happy to have the Hoyas. Another reason for Georgetown's move, as it stated in its press releases, was that the PL gave Georgetown the opportunity to compete against "peer" schools and, perhaps more importantly, to start scheduling Ivy games. The latter is something that Georgetown simply could not have done without joining the PL.

Georgetown discovered that the PL was exponentially more competitive than the MAAC and they struggled for a decade. Then, just as the Hoyas were staring to have a bit of PL success, the PL "changed the rules on them," so to speak, by starting to discuss scholarships. The only other PL football school that had a comparable DIII history was Fordham - and it was Fordham that lead the charge to PL scholarships. All of the other PL football schools, though small and academically-oriented, had remained dedicated to DI-level football throughout their histories (a characteristic that continues to define - and separate - that small group if colleges from many other nominally "similar" places in the northeast and elsewhere). So Georgetown now finds itself, rather suddenly, at a competitive disadvantage once again. It wasn't prepared to "lead the charge" in funding and scholarships like Fordham, and it doesn't have the institutional inertia, football-wise, of the other PL schools. So the hole is a little deeper for Georgetown than for, say, Lafayette or Holy Cross (two schools that were reported to be against PL scholarships, at least initially).

There's little question that Georgetown must increase its football spending, albeit modestly, with competitive grants-in-aid and coach's salaries if it wants to vie for comparatively modest success in the Patriot League - even if it does not award athletic merit scholarships. It must also commit to football-specific capital expenditures in addition to the new $60 million Athletic Center now under way (which will benefit football as well as other sports). The football-specific capital expenditures needn't (and shouldn't) be "grand." Some new stands, bathroom facilities, press facilities, signs and graphics, perhaps a scoreboard and cleaning up the place to give it a "finished look" will do just fine.

I certainly hope that Georgetown stays and competes in the league (even if we lose the occasional "FiOS Game" - *gulp*). Judging from the posts here and on other PL boards, the vast majority of other PL fans seem to feel the same way.

Outstanding post. Thanks

Only thing I'll ask is this: how is it possible to realize the following suggestion? "There's little question that Georgetown must increase its football spending, ... with competitive grants-in-aid ... even if it does not award athletic merit scholarships."

In other words, if a very talented football player comes to Georgetown and his parents are wealthy such that he would not qualify for need based aid anywhere he went, what possible mechanism could Georgetown employ to give this player money because he's good at football? Because such a thing would have to be promised to him in order to get him to come to Georgetown over other schools.

I know in the past "non-scholarship" (wink) years of the PL, the schools would "buy out" loans that the players took out via the financial aid office. There may have been accounting games played to say that money goes into the financial aid budget, not the athletic department budget. But the bottom line works out the same way eventually: you get free money because you play football well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Outstanding post. Thanks

Only thing I'll ask is this: how is it possible to realize the following suggestion? "There's little question that Georgetown must increase its football spending, ... with competitive grants-in-aid ... even if it does not award athletic merit scholarships."

In other words, if a very talented football player comes to Georgetown and his parents are wealthy such that he would not qualify for need based aid anywhere he went, what possible mechanism could Georgetown employ to give this player money because he's good at football? Because such a thing would have to be promised to him in order to get him to come to Georgetown over other schools.

I know in the past "non-scholarship" (wink) years of the PL, the schools would "buy out" loans that the players took out via the financial aid office. There may have been accounting games played to say that money goes into the financial aid budget, not the athletic department budget. But the bottom line works out the same way eventually: you get free money because you play football well.

Your is a question that has been pondered over and over. All of the Ivy schools and all of the Patriot schools - including Georgetown - offer some monetary incentives to some talented high school football players even if they "say" that they do not "provide athletic aid." The Patriot schools (sans Georgetown) now offer NCAA-compliant athletic scholarships but they still seem to be able to offer other "wink-and-nod" incentives, somehow, to other non-scholarship players. One look at the size of the rosters will tell you that. Ivy schools do not offer athletes any aid that is not available to non-athletes. But they (H-Y-P-P in particular) offer so much aid in general that money is available for any talented athlete who has the grades and wants to attend. There remains no question that certain students are admitted to those places because they play football. And there are certain students who play football at all of those places because of what those places they are, regardless of financial aid.

The Patriot/Ivy model historically was grounded on the notion that high school students wanted to come to their schools because of academic reputation, not just to play football. There always have been students who choose Patriot or Ivy over a traditional athletic scholarship if they could get a decent aid package even if it includes loans - and that remains the case. But Patriot schools determined that too many prospective student-athletes (mostly those in the middle between "wealthy" and "needy") were choosing Ivy because Ivy aid packages were far more generous (and because they're "Ivy") or were choosing comparable CAA schools because of the simplicity and assurance of a traditional athletic scholarship.

Georgetown attracts football players in the first instance the same way Ivy attracts football players - because it's Georgetown. Georgetown provides some monetary incentive to some players, regardless of the label used to describe that incentive. And Georgetown will do all it can to assist players with loan packages and find other forms of assistance for qualified players; but mostly athletes go there to play football because it's Georgetown. That's a good thing. Georgetown simply cannot (or will not) provide anywhere close to the lucrative incentives that most Ivies provide, however. That means that a lot of high schools students will choose Ivy over Georgetown, all other things being equal, because of the money. And with scholarships, more students will chose other PL schools over Georgetown because of the money.

The fix for Georgetown is deceptively simple. Given the great equalizer of the Academic Index, I'm fairly confident that the near future will demonstrate that, football competition-wise, a scholarship from a smaller PL school will be equal to an Ivy-Level aid package. So absent scholarships, Georgetown simply must try to provide Ivy-level aid packages - no matter what they "call" those aid packages. Not all at once, and maybe not at the level of H-Y-P-P. But it can no longer hope to field a Division I football team simply "because it's Georgetown."

[Go Green]

fordham has a rival in columbia already... however, depending on who you ask, that may not last much longer.


Not much of a rivalry when most people are suggesting that the over/under of Fordham's margin of victory for the game at 50.

[JoltinJoe]

Not much of a rivalry when most people are suggesting that the over/under of Fordham's margin of victory for the game at 50.

Last year was the exception, not the rule.

Even when Fordham has a very good team, Columbia manages to play us tough. And, of course, Columbia has won its share of the games with Fordham. In fact, Columbia still leads in the overall all-time series against Fordham by two wins, even though Fordham leads in the Liberty Cup series.

If only Columbia could get up for the rest of its games like it gets up for the Fordham.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If only Columbia could get up for the rest of its games like it gets up for Fordham.

I saw Columbia scrape past Marist up at Wien a couple of years back. The Powder Blues were thrilled beyond composure.

[MplsBison]

Your is a question that has been pondered over and over. All of the Ivy schools and all of the Patriot schools - including Georgetown - offer some monetary incentives to some talented high school football players even if they "say" that they do not "provide athletic aid." The Patriot schools (sans Georgetown) now offer NCAA-compliant athletic scholarships but they still seem to be able to offer other "wink-and-nod" incentives, somehow, to other non-scholarship players. One look at the size of the rosters will tell you that. Ivy schools do not offer athletes any aid that is not available to non-athletes. But they (H-Y-P-P in particular) offer so much aid in general that money is available for any talented athlete who has the grades and wants to attend. There remains no question that certain students are admitted to those places because they play football. And there are certain students who play football at all of those places because of what those places they are, regardless of financial aid.

The Patriot/Ivy model historically was grounded on the notion that high school students wanted to come to their schools because of academic reputation, not just to play football. There always have been students who choose Patriot or Ivy over a traditional athletic scholarship if they could get a decent aid package even if it includes loans - and that remains the case. But Patriot schools determined that too many prospective student-athletes (mostly those in the middle between "wealthy" and "needy") were choosing Ivy because Ivy aid packages were far more generous (and because they're "Ivy") or were choosing comparable CAA schools because of the simplicity and assurance of a traditional athletic scholarship.

Georgetown attracts football players in the first instance the same way Ivy attracts football players - because it's Georgetown. Georgetown provides some monetary incentive to some players, regardless of the label used to describe that incentive. And Georgetown will do all it can to assist players with loan packages and find other forms of assistance for qualified players; but mostly athletes go there to play football because it's Georgetown. That's a good thing. Georgetown simply cannot (or will not) provide anywhere close to the lucrative incentives that most Ivies provide, however. That means that a lot of high schools students will choose Ivy over Georgetown, all other things being equal, because of the money. And with scholarships, more students will chose other PL schools over Georgetown because of the money.

The fix for Georgetown is deceptively simple. Given the great equalizer of the Academic Index, I'm fairly confident that the near future will demonstrate that, football competition-wise, a scholarship from a smaller PL school will be equal to an Ivy-Level aid package. So absent scholarships, Georgetown simply must try to provide Ivy-level aid packages - no matter what they "call" those aid packages. Not all at once, and maybe not at the level of H-Y-P-P. But it can no longer hope to field a Division I football team simply "because it's Georgetown."

Well hopefully they can do that. Thanks for the insights.

[Go Green]

Last year was the exception, not the rule.

.

I'll put you down for the "under."

Plenty of guys on the Columbia football blog are picking the "over."

[2ram]

I'll put you down for the "under."

Plenty of guys on the Columbia football blog are picking the "over."

well that's why i said it may not last much longer. the consensus is another few beat-downs and we'll be looking for a rival that actually wants/will play us.

until then the liberty cup in nyc against columbia is fordhams rival game. i'd like to see either gtown or holy cross become the next if columbia fades into the abyss... but it's hard to imagine gtown even being in the PL a few years from now.

[Sader87]

HC-Fordham are technically now rivals....playing for the Ram-Crusader Cup every year.

Historically it's a good rivalry dating back to 1902. There was the era when FU dropped major college football (1955-1989) when the two schools didn't play but unlike GTown, FU seems to be overcoming that era and developing a football culture at its campus.

http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/holy_cross/opponents_records.php?teamid=1124

[Pard4Life]

I saw Columbia scrape past Marist up at Wien a couple of years back. The Powder Blues were thrilled beyond composure.

I also saw Columbia buzzsaw Lafayette's DL a couple years back... we pulled a Penn on them xrotatehx

[LeopardBall10]

I also saw Columbia buzzsaw Lafayette's DL a couple years back... we pulled a Penn on them xrotatehxBest Columbia team I saw was a few years back with that huge QB, can't remember his name, and the DE who made poor Buffolino question his purpose in life by the end of the 1st.

[2ram]

let's not forget they have that stanford xfer, nottingham, coming back this year, who suffered a season ending injury during the fordham game.

columbia may turn some heads this year. you know what they say... on any given saturday...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

let's not forget they have that stanford xfer, nottingham, coming back this year, who suffered a season ending injury during the fordham game.

columbia may turn some heads this year. you know what they say... on any given saturday...

They're still coached by the same guy, right?

[Pard4Life]

They're still coached by the same guy, right?

If you don't know, Columbia surely is irrelevant lol... I know Norries Wilson was fired two years ago... so I assume so.. don't even know the guy's name...

[Pard4Life]

Forget which magazine published which prediction, but here they are:

Lindy's:

1) Fordham
2) Lehigh
3) Lafayette
4) Bucknell
5) Colgate
6) Holy Cross
7) Georgetown

Sporting News:

1) Fordham
2) Bucknell
3) Lafayette
4) Lehigh
5) Holy Cross
6) Colgate
7) Georgetown

Overall, Sporting News sounded slightly more intelligent. Both rambled about how Fordham was ineligible last year and would have qualified blah blah but now this year they will finally get the bid. Of course, no mention that they would NOT have won the auto-bid last year if they had been eligible. Lindy's said "Lehigh was probably the second best team in the league last year despite being throttled in two late season games." Uh, come again?? Obviously, not the second best team. Lindy's did not even discuss Lafayette or Drew Reed. Sporting News mentioned Reed a little, and picked Lehigh fourth, citing glaring holes and lost offense. I give them credit for going with Bucknell second... can totally see that happening. They named Holy Cross as everyone's "season-breaker."

I wouldn't discount HC though. Tough line-up this year. Lehigh probably weaker than advertised and Holy Cross better... Colgate is an unknown... Gtown last... Fordham likely first (I'd give it 90%), but everything else up for grabs, IMO.

[Sader87]

Agree in general.....Fordham are the aristocracy, GTown the proletariat and everyone else will be the petite bourgeoisie in the PL this Fall.

[RichH2]

Agree in general.....Fordham are the aristocracy, GTown the proletariat and everyone else will be the petite bourgeoisie in the PL this Fall.

Yup :). Of the possible contenders, not one is without serious holes. Unfortunately for me, LU has by far the greatest number and a tough OOC. Not inconceivable that LU could come into PL sched with a 1-4 record.

[PAllen]

Fordham certainly the favorite and Lehigh was certainly NOT the second best team in the PL last year. I question putting Bucknell in the top half of the league. I just don't see where the points come from. Defense may win championships, but eventually you have to score a few on your own. That being said, I put preseason rankings in the same boat as a half time score (there is no more meaningless stat).

[LeopardBall10]

Yup :). Of the possible contenders, not one is without serious holes. Unfortunately for me, LU has by far the greatest number and a tough OOC. Not inconceivable that LU could come into PL sched with a 1-4 record. And that certainly means they won't win the league and head to the playoffs xsmiley_wix

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm glad that Fordham has the target on its back this year. First, it forces everyone else to adjust to a true 1-A level QB in Nebrich. The key to competing against Fordham last year simply was managing to catch the Rams while Nebrich was nursing an injury. In those situations the idea was to exploit some middle coverage softness in the Fordham secondary (and not have to be playing catch-up form the start). No PL team (as far as I'm aware) has enough punch at the tailback position to run the ball straight at the Fordham DL. Maybe a couple of backs are quick enough to turn the corner. So beating Fordham means a faster paced, high scoring game with lots of slants and screens and hoping for some YAC, plus the occasional deep ball. Colgate's Jake Melville and Lafayette's Drew Reed were the only ones able to deliver the long ball (40 yds. plus) against the Rams last season. Maybe we'll see some others this season - who knows.

Fordham's talented, full scholarship roster also makes us all look away from the Penn and Harvard-style cloud-of-dust slugfests, where each side spends so much time and energy trying to out-scheme and out-smart the other that they both forget to play football. It's now much more of an emphasis on fundamentals, execution and most significantly, raw speed and talent. Fordham has all those things but the other PL squads all showed last season, especially in the second half, that they were developing rapidly - even though the other teams' scholarship players were limited to true freshmen. The scores and results of the intra-league games last season were as unpredictable as any season in recent memory. A look at last season's "X who beat Y who beat Z" transitive circularity reveals no discernible, let alone predictive, pattern. The only thing we know for sure is that Fordham, with Nebrich in good health, will punch you in the face right off the clock and beat you before you have time even to assess what's happening.

So we pretty much can be assured that deep within the Bourger Frankosaurium, and in other PL film rooms, Mike Nebrich and the wall in front of him are topic number one. Given the smarts on the coaching staff throughout the league, and the emerging scholarship talent those coaches have to work with, I think it stands to reason that one of the other PL teams will be able to take down Fordham even when they're at full strength. I couldn't for the life of me predict which one, however.

[RichH2]

Surely possible Bogie. One neg for Rams is that Nebrich gets hit a lot in their O. He is their best running threat. The rest of us are a jumble of ifs and maybes in multiple positions. Bison perhaps less than the rest of us,if they have a QB.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I just realized that the Lafayette faces Fordham early in the schedule this season; it's the Pards' first league game. Maybe it's a good thing for us to get that game out of the way. New defensive coordinator Art Link will have had just four games - three NEC teams plus William & Mary - to work out the kinks of the new-fangled, New Hampshire-based 4-2-5 defense. I'm not sure if any of the QB's in those first four games has the ability to scorch us through the air. W&M's Graham is gone (it looks as if junior Christian Brumbaugh - who has never attempted a pass - will start for the Tribe); Robert Morris' Paul Jones (a Penn State transfer) didn't really light things up for the Colonials last season; Wagner went through three QBs last season but the two principal starters are gone. Sacred Heart chumped us to open last season but QB R.J. Noel did most of his damage with his feet, not through the air. So Mike Nebrich will be the first extreme test of the 4-2-5 against a powerful passing attack.

[Go Green]

let's not forget they have that stanford xfer, nottingham, coming back this year, who suffered a season ending injury during the fordham game.

columbia may turn some heads this year. you know what they say... on any given saturday...

It's hard to see them being much worse than 2013. But then again, it's hard to see any games on their schedule that they can win.

That the Columbia blog reported a few days ago that Columbia's best returning defensive lineman and best backup QB quit the team tempers any optimism even further.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's hard to see them being much worse than 2013. But then again, it's hard to see any games on their schedule that they can win.

That the Columbia blog reported a few days ago that Columbia's best returning defensive lineman and best backup QB quit the team tempers any optimism even further.

I'm not surprised Hilinski left, the way he was jerked around in the Lehigh game and how the head coach flew Nottingham in and cast him aside as the starter.

[Pard4Life]

I'm not surprised Hilinski left, the way he was jerked around in the Lehigh game and how the head coach flew Nottingham in and cast him aside as the starter.

Seems to be the exact opposite philosophy of Columbia's baseball program, which was profiled in the NYT yesterday.

[Pard4Life]

I just realized that the Lafayette faces Fordham early in the schedule this season; it's the Pards' first league game. Maybe it's a good thing for us to get that game out of the way. New defensive coordinator Art Link will have had just four games - three NEC teams plus William & Mary - to work out the kinks of the new-fangled, New Hampshire-based 4-2-5 defense. I'm not sure if any of the QB's in those first four games has the ability to scorch us through the air. W&M's Graham is gone (it looks as if junior Christian Brumbaugh - who has never attempted a pass - will start for the Tribe); Robert Morris' Paul Jones (a Penn State transfer) didn't really light things up for the Colonials last season; Wagner went through three QBs last season but the two principal starters are gone. Sacred Heart chumped us to open last season but QB R.J. Noel did most of his damage with his feet, not through the air. So Mike Nebrich will be the first extreme test of the 4-2-5 against a powerful passing attack.

I think WM has a capable starter on the bench... Ortiz I believe, from St. Peter's Prep in Jersey City. He was in for a few series of the 2012 game. We recruited him too.

[Pard4Life]

I'm glad that Fordham has the target on its back this year. First, it forces everyone else to adjust to a true 1-A level QB in Nebrich. The key to competing against Fordham last year simply was managing to catch the Rams while Nebrich was nursing an injury. In those situations the idea was to exploit some middle coverage softness in the Fordham secondary (and not have to be playing catch-up form the start). No PL team (as far as I'm aware) has enough punch at the tailback position to run the ball straight at the Fordham DL. Maybe a couple of backs are quick enough to turn the corner. So beating Fordham means a faster paced, high scoring game with lots of slants and screens and hoping for some YAC, plus the occasional deep ball. Colgate's Jake Melville and Lafayette's Drew Reed were the only ones able to deliver the long ball (40 yds. plus) against the Rams last season. Maybe we'll see some others this season - who knows.

Fordham's talented, full scholarship roster also makes us all look away from the Penn and Harvard-style cloud-of-dust slugfests, where each side spends so much time and energy trying to out-scheme and out-smart the other that they both forget to play football. It's now much more of an emphasis on fundamentals, execution and most significantly, raw speed and talent. Fordham has all those things but the other PL squads all showed last season, especially in the second half, that they were developing rapidly - even though the other teams' scholarship players were limited to true freshmen. The scores and results of the intra-league games last season were as unpredictable as any season in recent memory. A look at last season's "X who beat Y who beat Z" transitive circularity reveals no discernible, let alone predictive, pattern. The only thing we know for sure is that Fordham, with Nebrich in good health, will punch you in the face right off the clock and beat you before you have time even to assess what's happening.

So we pretty much can be assured that deep within the Bourger Frankosaurium, and in other PL film rooms, Mike Nebrich and the wall in front of him are topic number one. Given the smarts on the coaching staff throughout the league, and the emerging scholarship talent those coaches have to work with, I think it stands to reason that one of the other PL teams will be able to take down Fordham even when they're at full strength. I couldn't for the life of me predict which one, however.

Georgetown... ?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think WM has a capable starter on the bench... Ortiz I believe, from St. Peter's Prep in Jersey City. He was in for a few series of the 2012 game. We recruited him too.

Local press suggests that a "gaggle of quarterbacks" are vying for the position. OC Kevin Rogers thinks that Ortiz "throws the ball like Michael Vick" but Ortiz was "unable to play" in the W&M spring game due to an injury.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/colleges/dp-spt-teel-column-wm-spring-20140413,0,7654043.column

[Bogus Megapardus]

Georgetown... ?

Didn't we agree that they moved to the PFL already? "Peers," you know . . . . xnodx

Or was that "Pears?" I forget.




http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/myvvFrfOamgzOY4F-CoEIPA.jpg

[Tribe4SF]

Local press suggests that a "gaggle of quarterbacks" are vying for the position. OC Kevin Rogers thinks that Ortiz "throws the ball like Michael Vick" but Ortiz was "unable to play" in the W&M spring game due to an injury.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/colleges/dp-spt-teel-column-wm-spring-20140413,0,7654043.column

Ortiz started several games in 2012 before injury. Talented but no idea whether he'll be ready after a second shoulder surgery last October.

The Mike Vick comparison was not for Ortiz, but for redshirt freshman Jhalil Mosley who has a wealth of physical talent but has taken a year to recover from foot surgery prior to arriving at W&M. He's participated in only a few practices.

If both of these guys are healthy, Ortiz will be the front runner with Mosley needing a short learning curve to be ready. Ortiz had a cannon before the surgeries, and can run. Mosley is very athletic, and throws a very pretty ball. With quality depth everywhere else on the offense, a strong QB can potentiate the Tribe this year.

Ortiz video.

http://www.tribeathletics.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=25100&id=1137412