Rutgers Still Pursuing Georgetown Verbal

[DFW HOYA]

Rivals two-star LB Sam Blue verballed to Georgetown last week. But because Georgetown can't offer a National Letter of Intent, teams will simply keep recruiting him. That's how it's done in I-A.

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2014/01/rutgers_recruiting_linebacker_recruiting_update.ht ml

Not unusual, however. Two years ago, Michigan State signed the Hoyas' top WR candidate after he had committed to Georgetown.

UPDATE: Blue committed to Rutgers, 2/1. See page 5 of the thread.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I read today that Rutgers has had something like 10 de-commitments from a class that was once ranked in the Top 20. Penn State got their highly touted WR.....

[ngineer]

I read today that Rutgers has had something like 10 de-commitments from a class that was once ranked in the Top 20. Penn State got their highly touted WR.....

I'm smelling another legislative investigation by the NJ State Legislature...and the 'Govna' closing the bridges over the Delaware!

[Bogus Megapardus]

My bet is that he'll stick with Georgetown because it's Georgetown. That's why he committed to begin with, isn't it?

I hope he stays put.




EDIT: "Once coordinators are selected, more specifically on the defensive side of the ball, the family will have the clarity they need to make a more informed decision."

What a bunch of blithering hogwash. The Star-Ledger continues to discover new lows in the realm of sports journalism.

[Bill]

I know Rutgers could be free, in theory....but if this kid's family can somehow pull it off - how can you possibly pick Rutgers over Georgetown? Unless this kid thinks he's NFL material, academic reputation beats playing in big 10 any day (for me). If you're good enough, you can make it to the NFL from anywhere.....but having that Gtown degree (and future connections) to fall back upon could be priceless.....

[walliver]

Rivals two-star LB Sam Blue verballed to Georgetown last week. But because Georgetown can't offer a National Letter of Intent, teams will simply keep recruiting him. That's how it's done in I-A.

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2014/01/rutgers_recruiting_linebacker_recruiting_update.ht ml

Not unusual, however. Two years ago, Michigan State signed the Hoyas' top WR candidate after he had committed to Georgetown.

No recruit is safe from being poached prior to signing day. It is routine for recruits to "commit" and continue to make official visitsxcrazyx. A letter of intent is absolutely worthless at any school prior to signing day.

In fact, I rarely feel safe about any recruit until he actually walks on campus in the summer.

[Go Green]

I know Rutgers could be free, in theory....but if this kid's family can somehow pull it off - how can you possibly pick Rutgers over Georgetown? Unless this kid thinks he's NFL material, academic reputation beats playing in big 10 any day (for me). If you're good enough, you can make it to the NFL from anywhere.....but having that Gtown degree (and future connections) to fall back upon could be priceless.....

We have this exact discussion several times a year on the Ivy board during recruiting season. "He's turning us down for freakin' TULSA????"

[bkrownd]

We have this exact discussion several times a year on the Ivy board during recruiting season. "He's turning us down for freakin' TULSA????"

Toot your own horn, but don't slag other people's personal preferences.

[MplsBison]

I know Rutgers could be free, in theory....but if this kid's family can somehow pull it off - how can you possibly pick Rutgers over Georgetown? Unless this kid thinks he's NFL material, academic reputation beats playing in big 10 any day (for me). If you're good enough, you can make it to the NFL from anywhere.....but having that Gtown degree (and future connections) to fall back upon could be priceless.....

Then again, if the kid is smart enough to get into Georgetown - why not play at Rutgers, receive an equivalent undergraduate education for a fraction of the cost - then if the NFL doesn't work out, you can always attend Georgetown as a graduate student?

What competitive football player wouldn't pick a B1G environment over essentially a DIII environment?


That's how I counter-sell the kid against your pitch, anyway.

When you phrase it as "look, do you really want your friends and family coming to the 'Multi-Sports Field', a high school stadium, to watch you play football just so your Bachelor's degree can say 'Georgetown' on it? Wouldn't you rather have them come to a major league, NFL-type of experience to watch you play at the highest level - then you can always go get that Georgetown degree after you're finished with the game?" - I think I'll win, too.

[bonarae]

Then again, if the kid is smart enough to get into Georgetown - why not play at Rutgers, receive an equivalent undergraduate education for a fraction of the cost - then if the NFL doesn't work out, you can always attend Georgetown as a graduate student?

What competitive football player wouldn't pick a B1G environment over essentially a DIII environment?

That's how I counter-sell the kid against your pitch, anyway.

When you phrase it as "look, do you really want your friends and family coming to the 'Multi-Sports Field', a high school stadium, to watch you play football just so your Bachelor's degree can say 'Georgetown' on it? Wouldn't you rather have them come to a major league, NFL-type of experience to watch you play at the highest level - then you can always go get that Georgetown degree after you're finished with the game?" - I think I'll win, too.

But Rutgers has had its share of issues on and off the field... have the Scarlet Knights moved on from these? The off-field issues are the thing that scares recruits from playing for them.

Take a look at the Ivy players. The ones who stay with us all four years and those who transfer from FBS schools have had no regrets. They just play for pride.

Georgetown's administration emphasizes basketball 5-10x over football. However, their basketball program is in trouble lately...

Regarding the bolded text I quoted - unfortunately that is true.

[MplsBison]

It hasn't scared away Philip Nelson, the former starting QB for the U of Minnesota who is transferring this off-season. He visited Rutgers and liked it.

That's not to dismiss or diminish anything you said about off the field issues, but I tend to think of those things as being insignificant to recruits. In other words, recruits may tend to think "yeah...but that won't happen to me, I'm different" regardless if true or not.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown's administration emphasizes basketball 5-10x over football. However, their basketball program is in trouble lately...

Regarding the bolded text I quoted - unfortunately that is true.

I expect such foolishness from Mpls' posts, not from someone who claims to follow the Cantabs.

How is the basketball program "in trouble"? NCAA violations? No. Player arrests? No. Coaches quitting? No.

It's a down year, that's all. Why?

1. The best player on the team last year left went from a relative unknown to the #3 NBA pick in two seasons.
2. The next best player took an exam lightly, was held off the team, tore his ACL, and transferred to Rutgers, all within one year.
3. The presumed center on the team three years ago was diagnosed with a heart condition and his career ended after four games.
4. The next center, as it has been said, "consumes everything except knowledge" and finds himself grounded as a result.
5. The starting forwards have suffered a broken jaw and broken nose, respectively. The starting guard is fighting through bruised ribs. The rotation is down to eight players.

Unfortunate? Yes. Disappointing. Sure. Trouble? No. Whether Georgetown wins another ten games this season or none at all, five seniors will finish their careers in March and five will graduate. That's how it's done.

(I'll pass on your D-III comment as bait. Having seen D-III football up close, Georgetown is no more a D-III program than North Dakota State is a NCC program.)

[CFBfan]

Toot your own horn, but don't slag other people's personal preferences.

that from a program that's a mess!!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Toot your own horn, but don't slag other people's personal preferences.

It's possible that you have misinterpreted GoGreen's comment. I think Green meant to convey that a player's actual choice might be Dartmouth (or Georgetown) but that he can be led elsewhere by the lure of a scholarship combined with the reality of family finances. Dartmouth and Georgetown do not offer football scholarships as (for example) Tulsa does. Dartmouth and Georgetown can make generous financial aid packages easy to obtain for any student, but they do not provide football scholarships. So "choice" doesn't always equal "destination."

[Go Green]

Toot your own horn, but don't slag other people's personal preferences.

If it means anything, I personally never participate in those discussions on the Ivy Board.

While I certainly think that the Ivy degree will help the kid longer term than the Tulsa/Toledo/North Texas degree, I get that there may be reasons why a kid opts for the scholarship at the FBS program. Maybe there's a girl involved. Maybe he wants his grandparents to see him play in person and they can't afford airfare travel. Maybe he has a sick parent or sibling and wants to come home often to visit. And maybe he wants to settle in a part of the country where Tulsa carries weight.

But every Ivy team loses kids to all types of schools every year. Most don't mind losing out to the BCS schools, but the lower-level FBS teams where the talent really isn't all that much higher than FCS... some Ivy fans find that hard to swallow.

[MplsBison]

I expect such foolishness from Mpls' posts, not from someone who claims to follow the Cantabs.

How is the basketball program "in trouble"? NCAA violations? No. Player arrests? No. Coaches quitting? No.

It's a down year, that's all. Why?

1. The best player on the team last year left went from a relative unknown to the #3 NBA pick in two seasons.
2. The next best player took an exam lightly, was held off the team, tore his ACL, and transferred to Rutgers, all within one year.
3. The presumed center on the team three years ago was diagnosed with a heart condition and his career ended after four games.
4. The next center, as it has been said, "consumes everything except knowledge" and finds himself grounded as a result.
5. The starting forwards have suffered a broken jaw and broken nose, respectively. The starting guard is fighting through bruised ribs. The rotation is down to eight players.

Unfortunate? Yes. Disappointing. Sure. Trouble? No. Whether Georgetown wins another ten games this season or none at all, five seniors will finish their careers in March and five will graduate. That's how it's done.

(I'll pass on your D-III comment as bait. Having seen D-III football up close, Georgetown is no more a D-III program than North Dakota State is a NCC program.)

xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

http://www.d3football.com/seasons/2012/contrib/20130218n45h


This season, all four NCAA football divisions (FBS, FCS, II, III) saw a total of 48,958,547 fans attend 3,569 games. The average attendance across all divisions was 13,718 fans per game, and overall attendance was down by 330 fans per game in 2012. Division III had a total of 2,361,687 fans and an average of 1,952 fans at its 1,210 games. The other NCAA conference leaders were the Southeastern Conference (SEC) with 75,538 fans per game in FBS, the Southwest Atlantic with 13,097 fans per game in FBS and Southern Intercollegiate in Division II with 7,429 fans per game.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf

(still waiting for the 2013 document to be published) - Gtown = 2410/avg for 2012.


Gtown:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Multi-Sport_Field.jpg

Hamline (the MIAC's worst attended program):

http://www.hamline.edu/assets/0/8589934598/8589934623/2147486417/e3f4904a-589b-4c13-acff-4c19caf1e6c1.jpg

[Bogus Megapardus]

MplsBison has convinced me, once again, with his eloquence and straightforward logic. I'd go to Hamline over Georgetown any day. Sight unseen. Plus we know already that Mpls has been invited to Georgetown any number of times for lectures, professional conferences and policy workshops. There's little doubt, in my mind at least, that Mpls knows well of what he writes - Georgetown is a midwestern D-III environment through and through.

BTW - Hamline . . . could you post directions? Not too sure where it is . . . .

[CFBfan]

MplsBison has convinced me, once again, with his eloquence and straightforward logic. I'd go to Hamline over Georgetown any day. Sight unseen. Plus we know already that Mpls has been invited to Georgetown any number of times for lectures, professional conferences and policy workshops. There's little doubt, in my mind at least, that Mpls knows well of what he writes - Georgetown is a midwestern D-III environment through and through.

BTW - Hamline . . . could you post directions? Not too sure where it is . . . .

You need to look very hard but MPLS was the guy holding Ms Sandra Flukes perse while she was opining at the Gtown pulpit. So see Bogie, he actualy was there!!

[DFW HOYA]

Mpls, since when is division membership a function of facility capacity? If Georgetown played at RFK Stadium, would that make it a I-A program? It's a weak argument.

Charleston Southern plays in an 851 seat gymnasium and no one is claiming it's a D3 basketball program.

http://www.csuniv.edu/images/fieldhouse1.jpg

[Sader87]

Coincidentally Hamline came up on or board not too long ago. They were actually pretty good in hoop in the 40s and 50s...one alumnus Vern Mikkelson played for the Lakers for many years. We played them once in the Boston Gahhhhden in '52-'53, the crusaders prevailed 66-55.

[lionsrking2]

Rivals two-star LB Sam Blue verballed to Georgetown last week. But because Georgetown can't offer a National Letter of Intent, teams will simply keep recruiting him. That's how it's done in I-A.

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2014/01/rutgers_recruiting_linebacker_recruiting_update.ht ml

Not unusual, however. Two years ago, Michigan State signed the Hoyas' top WR candidate after he had committed to Georgetown.

Not sure what Georgetown not being able to offer Blue an NLI has to do with Rutgers still recruiting him. Even if Georgetown could offer an NLI, Rutgers could still continue to pursue him until he signed it. Happens all time in the recruiting food chain. Overlooked or backburner player, commits to smaller division program ... larger division school comes back in at last minute when they lose another kid to somewhere else.

[bkrownd]

BTW - Hamline . . . could you post directions? Not too sure where it is . . . .

It's a couple miles up Snelling Avenue from Macalester College, which was once the national poster-child for college football futility with a 50 game losing streak.

IIRC, I took my GRE at Hamline...

[bkrownd]

While I certainly think that the Ivy degree will help the kid longer term than the Tulsa/Toledo/North Texas degree,

Well, maybe that's what you think. Don't expect everyone to think so.

[MplsBison]

MplsBison has convinced me, once again, with his eloquence and straightforward logic. I'd go to Hamline over Georgetown any day. Sight unseen. Plus we know already that Mpls has been invited to Georgetown any number of times for lectures, professional conferences and policy workshops. There's little doubt, in my mind at least, that Mpls knows well of what he writes - Georgetown is a midwestern D-III environment through and through.

BTW - Hamline . . . could you post directions? Not too sure where it is . . . .

You knew that the context of the discussion was strictly limited to the football program.

The stadium represents the program. Gtown's stadium is DIII caliber, thus so is their program.


So stop posting ad hominems.

[MplsBison]

Mpls, since when is division membership a function of facility capacity? If Georgetown played at RFK Stadium, would that make it a I-A program? It's a weak argument.

Charleston Southern plays in an 851 seat gymnasium and no one is claiming it's a D3 basketball program.



I didn't imply that.

First of all, if Gtown played in RFK their average attendance (which is the actual statistic I referenced, NOT capacity) would not increase (significantly).

Second of all, comparing a B1G environment to Georgetown's environment *IS* equivalent to comparing to a DIII environment. That's what I was saying in my post.

[Bogus Megapardus]

So stop posting ad hominems.

When you stop posting argumenta ad ignorantiam.

[MplsBison]

When you stop posting argumenta ad ignorantiam.

I provided ample evidence showing Georgetown's college football environment is equivalent to a DIII environment, thus proving my earlier stated contention that the recruit could just as well select the B1G college football environment over a DIII environment, then go to GU later on for a graduate degree.

Basically what happened here is that DFW overlooked the word "environment" in his haste to defend the program from a DIII labeling. Not that he'll admit it...

[DFW HOYA]

Basically what happened here is that DFW overlooked the word "environment" in his haste to defend the program from a DIII labeling. Not that he'll admit it...
You're just trolling at this point. It is not a D-III environment. Even the other Patriot League coaches will tell you that.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You're just trolling at this point. It is not a D-III environment. Even the other Patriot League coaches will tell you that.

Other Patriot League fans will tell you that as well.

[Sader87]

What really is a "FCS/1-AA" environment exactly? A mostly empty Yale Bowl, Franklin Field etc? A big SWAC crowd? A raucous Fargo Dome? A facility like Chuck South or Jacksonville U?

[Bogus Megapardus]

What really is a "FCS/1-AA" environment exactly? A mostly empty Yale Bowl, Franklin Field etc? A big SWAC crowd? A raucous Fargo Dome? A facility like Chuck South or Jacksonville U?

Fitton Field circa. 1987?

[Sader87]

Fitton Field circa. 1987?

Be nice to see again....but there really is no atypical 1-AA environment, and in some ways therein lies the charm of the division. I can't think of another level in college or pro sports that has such a wide diversity of venues.

[MplsBison]

You're just trolling at this point. It is not a D-III environment. Even the other Patriot League coaches will tell you that.

It is equivalent to a DIII environment, ample evidence was provided. I don't question your denial, given that you're a fan of the program.

Regardless, my original statement is absolutely correct. The idea of selling a competitive football athlete on a bachelor's degree with "Georgetown" printed on it (or any Ivy school, for that matter) can easily be counter-sold by offering a B1G football environment (which in comparison to Georgetown's environment is like comparing to a DIII environment) and then allowing the player to pursue a graduate degree at Georgetown later on, if he so chooses.

[MplsBison]

What really is a "FCS/1-AA" environment exactly? A mostly empty Yale Bowl, Franklin Field etc? A big SWAC crowd? A raucous Fargo Dome? A facility like Chuck South or Jacksonville U?

Somewhere around 15-20k attendance.

I'd like to think that, anyway. But as ESPN is wont to do, they exposed the sub-division by broadcasting from EIU and EWU this year.

[Sader87]

Somewhere around 15-20k attendance.

I'd like to think that, anyway. But as ESPN is wont to do, they exposed the sub-division by broadcasting from EIU and EWU this year.

I think it was 20-25 or so years ago but FCS attendances have dropped a lot, particularly in the Northeast, and a lot of programs that drew in that range have since gone FBS.

NDSU is one of the few FCS programs that average 18K these days....I think a more typical FCS crowd today is in the 8-12K range.

[DFW HOYA]

Somewhere around 15-20k attendance.


Only 15 I-AA teams in playoff-eligible conferences* have at least 20,000 seats, while another 22 have at least 15,000. Most of the rest of the subdivision will never see numbers like that.

*Most of the largest stadia are either in the Ivy or SWAC.

[lionsrking2]

I think it was 20-25 or so years ago but FCS attendances have dropped a lot, particularly in the Northeast, and a lot of programs that drew in that range have since gone FBS.

NDSU is one of the few FCS programs that average 18K these days....I think a more typical FCS crowd today is in the 8-12K range.

Attendance is down pretty much across the board, not just at FCS schools. We live in a different world today than we did 20-25 years ago - for obvious reasons. Not to mention it was a lot more common to pad attendance back then.

[Bill]

*Most of the largest stadia are either in the Ivy or SWAC.

+1 for proper use of the plural form of stadium!

[UAalum72]

Somewhere around 15-20k attendance.

I'd like to think that, anyway. But as ESPN is wont to do, they exposed the sub-division by broadcasting from EIU and EWU this year.
But you are incorrect to think that, or sadly delusional about the FCS. Only fourteen teams averaged 15,000 or more in 2012. This is probably not less than any time in at least ten years.

As for lower attendance than in the past, this is also tinged by the golden haze of nostalgia. Other than the reduction in average from the addition of the Dayton-rule teams in 1993, attendance at this level has been pretty stable, down less than 20% despite cable TV and online broadcasts of more games than ever imagined 30 years ago, and never near 15-25K

Annual Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) Attendance
Year .................................................. .................Teams G Attendance Avg.
1978 .................................................. .................... 38 201 2,032,766 10,113
1979 .................................................. .................... 39 211 2,073,890 9,829
1980 .................................................. .................... 46 251 2,617,932 10,430
1981 .................................................. .................... 50 270 2,950,156 10,927
1982 .................................................. .................... 92 483 5,655,519 *11,709
1983 .................................................. .................... 84 450 4,879,709 10,844
1984 .................................................. .................... 87 465 5,061,480 10,885
1985 .................................................. .................... 87 471 5,143,077 10,919
1986 .................................................. .................... 86 456 5,044,992 11,064
1987 .................................................. .................... 87 460 5,129,250 11,151
1988 .................................................. .................... 88 465 4,801,637 10,326
1989 .................................................. .................... 89 471 5,278,520 11,020
1990 .................................................. .................... 87 473 5,328,477 11,265
1991 .................................................. .................... 89 490 5,386,425 10,993
1992 .................................................. .................... 88 485 5,057,955 10,429
1993 .................................................. .................... 115 623 5,356,873 8,599
1994 .................................................. .................... 117 643 6,193,989 9,633
1995 .................................................. .................... 119 647 5,660,329 8,749
1996 .................................................. .................... 116 629 5,255,033 8,355
1997 .................................................. .................... 118 642 5,212,048 8,118
1998 .................................................. .................... 119 631 5,555,862 8,805
1999 .................................................. .................... 122 661 5,949,345 9,001
2000 .................................................. .................... 122 664 5,722,107 8,618
2001 .................................................. .................... *123 649 5,375,851 8,283
2002 .................................................. .................... *123 *700 5,525,250 7,893
2003 .................................................. .................... 121 699 6,070,116 8,684
2004 .................................................. .................... 119 658 5,650,727 8,588
2005 .................................................. .................... 116 638 5,436,122 8,521
2006 .................................................. .................... 116 642 5,723,876 8,916
2007 .................................................. .................... 116 644 5,895,387 9,154
2008 .................................................. .................... 118 677 5,972,993 8,823
2009 .................................................. .................... 118 642 5,555,935 8,654
2010 .................................................. .................... 117 640 6,031,800 9,425
2011 .................................................. .................... 121 666 *6,407,059 9,620
2012 .................................................. .................... 122 660 5,967,272 9,041
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2013/Attendance.pdf

[Sader87]

Interesting that that average has stayed so steady over the 30+ years UA....thanks for posting that.

That roughly 10K figure will probably remain the average in the years to come, for every Harvard, Princeton, Holy Cross et. al. that used to average 15-20K back in the day, you now have the NDSU's, JMU's etc. taking over that attendance mantle at the FCS-level so to speak.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Those are interesting data, UAalum - thanks. The "Dayton Rule Effect" really jumps out at you, doesn't it?

[Bogus Megapardus]

UPDATE: Sam Blue flips, commits to Rutgers:

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2014/02/sam_blue_north_carolina_linebacker_flips_from_geor getown_to_rutgers_during_official_visit.html#incar t_river_default

"Blue, an academic standout, also held academic scholarship offers from Cornell, Princeton and Brown."

[CFBfan]

UPDATE: Sam Blue flips, commits to Rutgers:

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2014/02/sam_blue_north_carolina_linebacker_flips_from_geor getown_to_rutgers_during_official_visit.html#incar t_river_default

"Blue, an academic standout, also held academic scholarship offers from Cornell, Princeton and Brown."

Kids (and their families) have to choose where they feel is best for them. that said, boy princeton seems close to a no brainer there?

- - - Updated - - -


UPDATE: Sam Blue flips, commits to Rutgers:

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2014/02/sam_blue_north_carolina_linebacker_flips_from_geor getown_to_rutgers_during_official_visit.html#incar t_river_default

"Blue, an academic standout, also held academic scholarship offers from Cornell, Princeton and Brown."

No scholarship offers from the PL for this kid?

[Go Green]

Harvard, Princeton, Holy Cross et. al. that used to average 15-20K back in the day.

Harvard usually averages 15K+ in years that they host "The Game."

Now that Princeton looks like they're going to be good again, I expect them to push 15K as well (although they probably won't break it).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But you are incorrect to think that, or sadly delusional about the FCS. Only fourteen teams averaged 15,000 or more in 2012. This is probably not less than any time in at least ten years.

As for lower attendance than in the past, this is also tinged by the golden haze of nostalgia. Other than the reduction in average from the addition of the Dayton-rule teams in 1993, attendance at this level has been pretty stable, down less than 20% despite cable TV and online broadcasts of more games than ever imagined 30 years ago, and never near 15-25K

Annual Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) Attendance
Year .................................................. .................Teams G Attendance Avg.
1978 .................................................. .................... 38 201 2,032,766 10,113
1979 .................................................. .................... 39 211 2,073,890 9,829
1980 .................................................. .................... 46 251 2,617,932 10,430
1981 .................................................. .................... 50 270 2,950,156 10,927
1982 .................................................. .................... 92 483 5,655,519 *11,709
1983 .................................................. .................... 84 450 4,879,709 10,844
1984 .................................................. .................... 87 465 5,061,480 10,885
1985 .................................................. .................... 87 471 5,143,077 10,919
1986 .................................................. .................... 86 456 5,044,992 11,064
1987 .................................................. .................... 87 460 5,129,250 11,151
1988 .................................................. .................... 88 465 4,801,637 10,326
1989 .................................................. .................... 89 471 5,278,520 11,020
1990 .................................................. .................... 87 473 5,328,477 11,265
1991 .................................................. .................... 89 490 5,386,425 10,993
1992 .................................................. .................... 88 485 5,057,955 10,429
1993 .................................................. .................... 115 623 5,356,873 8,599
1994 .................................................. .................... 117 643 6,193,989 9,633
1995 .................................................. .................... 119 647 5,660,329 8,749
1996 .................................................. .................... 116 629 5,255,033 8,355
1997 .................................................. .................... 118 642 5,212,048 8,118
1998 .................................................. .................... 119 631 5,555,862 8,805
1999 .................................................. .................... 122 661 5,949,345 9,001
2000 .................................................. .................... 122 664 5,722,107 8,618
2001 .................................................. .................... *123 649 5,375,851 8,283
2002 .................................................. .................... *123 *700 5,525,250 7,893
2003 .................................................. .................... 121 699 6,070,116 8,684
2004 .................................................. .................... 119 658 5,650,727 8,588
2005 .................................................. .................... 116 638 5,436,122 8,521
2006 .................................................. .................... 116 642 5,723,876 8,916
2007 .................................................. .................... 116 644 5,895,387 9,154
2008 .................................................. .................... 118 677 5,972,993 8,823
2009 .................................................. .................... 118 642 5,555,935 8,654
2010 .................................................. .................... 117 640 6,031,800 9,425
2011 .................................................. .................... 121 666 *6,407,059 9,620
2012 .................................................. .................... 122 660 5,967,272 9,041
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2013/Attendance.pdf

Great find, but note 2010-2012, where the average jumps to above 9,000 for the first time since the 1990s. If anything the average has made a not-insignificant increase in the last three years.

[DFW HOYA]

Great find, but note 2010-2012, where the average jumps to above 9,000 for the first time since the 1990s. If anything the average has made a not-insignificant increase in the last three years.

1982 .................................................. .................... 92 483 5,655,519 *11,709
1983 .................................................. .................... 84 450 4,879,709 10,844

Who were the eight schools that dropped out in 1983?

[Go Green]

1982 .................................................. .................... 92 483 5,655,519 *11,709
1983 .................................................. .................... 84 450 4,879,709 10,844

Who were the eight schools that dropped out in 1983?

Pretty sure Seton Hall was one of them.

[CFBfan]

Pretty sure Seton Hall was one of them.

1980 was Seton Halls last year of football
back then they play the likes of: Fordham, Hofstra, Pace, Wagner, William Paterson, Montclair St, Upsala, Merchant Marines, Rochester, etc

[Bogus Megapardus]

1982 .................................................. .................... 92 483 5,655,519 *11,709
1983 .................................................. .................... 84 450 4,879,709 10,844

Who were the eight schools that dropped out in 1983?

Do you mean dropped out, or do you mean reclassified?

[Sader87]

I think the MAC was 1-AA in 1982 and then bumped back up to 1-A in 1983....as for 2010-2012, I would say that NDSU, App St and JMU were a big reason for that increase.

[Eagle22]

I think the MAC was 1-AA in 1982 and then bumped back up to 1-A in 1983....as for 2010-2012, I would say that NDSU, App St and JMU were a big reason for that increase.

Don't forget about ODU.

With GSU, ODU and App State leaving that will take it back under 9K average, IMO.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't forget about ODU.

With GSU, ODU and App State leaving that will take it back under 9K average, IMO.

xrolleyesx

When one goes to the FWS, another rises to take its place.

[Eagle22]

xrolleyesx

When one goes to the FWS, another rises to take its place.

Which 3 new programs are bringing 20K+ averages to FCS ? Just curious .... not smack.

Mercer might bring 10K new on average, not sure about ACU or any of the other new guys.

[MplsBison]

I think it was 20-25 or so years ago but FCS attendances have dropped a lot, particularly in the Northeast, and a lot of programs that drew in that range have since gone FBS.

NDSU is one of the few FCS programs that average 18K these days....I think a more typical FCS crowd today is in the 8-12K range.

That most programs currently classified in the FCS don't average 15k just means most of them don't live up to what an FCS environment should be.

It doesn't drag the definition of FCS environment down to them.


Not so long as we still have Montana, Montana St, NDSU and a few others as real proof of what an FCS environment is supposed to be! When those all leave, then fine - you can change it.

[MplsBison]

UPDATE: Sam Blue flips, commits to Rutgers:

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2014/02/sam_blue_north_carolina_linebacker_flips_from_geor getown_to_rutgers_during_official_visit.html#incar t_river_default

"Blue, an academic standout, also held academic scholarship offers from Cornell, Princeton and Brown."

Smart kid. No question if he doesn't have a shot at playing professional afterward, I'm sure he'll very easily be able to take his high GPA at an elite public school (Big Ten) and be accepted to the graduate program of his choosing.

[MplsBison]

xrolleyesx

When one goes to the FWS, another rises to take its place.

xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

In the standings, yes. In average attendance? Obviously not.

No more than donors are suddenly going to start giving 200% of the last year's donations simply because other teams left the subdivision.

[MplsBison]

But you are incorrect to think that, or sadly delusional about the FCS. Only fourteen teams averaged 15,000 or more in 2012. This is probably not less than any time in at least ten years.

As for lower attendance than in the past, this is also tinged by the golden haze of nostalgia. Other than the reduction in average from the addition of the Dayton-rule teams in 1993, attendance at this level has been pretty stable, down less than 20% despite cable TV and online broadcasts of more games than ever imagined 30 years ago, and never near 15-25K

Annual Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) Attendance
Year .................................................. .................Teams G Attendance Avg.
1978 .................................................. .................... 38 201 2,032,766 10,113
1979 .................................................. .................... 39 211 2,073,890 9,829
1980 .................................................. .................... 46 251 2,617,932 10,430
1981 .................................................. .................... 50 270 2,950,156 10,927
1982 .................................................. .................... 92 483 5,655,519 *11,709
1983 .................................................. .................... 84 450 4,879,709 10,844
1984 .................................................. .................... 87 465 5,061,480 10,885
1985 .................................................. .................... 87 471 5,143,077 10,919
1986 .................................................. .................... 86 456 5,044,992 11,064
1987 .................................................. .................... 87 460 5,129,250 11,151
1988 .................................................. .................... 88 465 4,801,637 10,326
1989 .................................................. .................... 89 471 5,278,520 11,020
1990 .................................................. .................... 87 473 5,328,477 11,265
1991 .................................................. .................... 89 490 5,386,425 10,993
1992 .................................................. .................... 88 485 5,057,955 10,429
1993 .................................................. .................... 115 623 5,356,873 8,599
1994 .................................................. .................... 117 643 6,193,989 9,633
1995 .................................................. .................... 119 647 5,660,329 8,749
1996 .................................................. .................... 116 629 5,255,033 8,355
1997 .................................................. .................... 118 642 5,212,048 8,118
1998 .................................................. .................... 119 631 5,555,862 8,805
1999 .................................................. .................... 122 661 5,949,345 9,001
2000 .................................................. .................... 122 664 5,722,107 8,618
2001 .................................................. .................... *123 649 5,375,851 8,283
2002 .................................................. .................... *123 *700 5,525,250 7,893
2003 .................................................. .................... 121 699 6,070,116 8,684
2004 .................................................. .................... 119 658 5,650,727 8,588
2005 .................................................. .................... 116 638 5,436,122 8,521
2006 .................................................. .................... 116 642 5,723,876 8,916
2007 .................................................. .................... 116 644 5,895,387 9,154
2008 .................................................. .................... 118 677 5,972,993 8,823
2009 .................................................. .................... 118 642 5,555,935 8,654
2010 .................................................. .................... 117 640 6,031,800 9,425
2011 .................................................. .................... 121 666 *6,407,059 9,620
2012 .................................................. .................... 122 660 5,967,272 9,041
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2013/Attendance.pdf

Great data! Thanks.

None the less though, to response to the argument see post #54.

[UAalum72]

Question in #30 - "What really is a IAA/FCS environment"? Not what you say "should be" or "is supposed to be". What "is" is not defined by the exceptions at the top any more than by the exceptions at the bottom.

[Sader87]

That most programs currently classified in the FCS don't average 15k just means most of them don't live up to what an FCS environment should be.

It doesn't drag the definition of FCS environment down to them.


Not so long as we still have Montana, Montana St, NDSU and a few others as real proof of what an FCS environment is supposed to be! When those all leave, then fine - you can change it.

Again, outside of the major conferences at the FBS-level, the lower level conferences: MAC, Sun-Belt, Mountain West and C-USA had an average attendance in the 15-25K range in 2012.

I'd like to think 15K is a "typical average attendance" for an FCS game in 2014 but it just isn't. The schools you noted are really outliers rather than the norm of FCS attendance today. Many schools that used to be at that level attendance-wise either went FBS awhile ago (Boise St, UConn, Marshall etc) or recently (App St, GA Southern, UMass, ODU etc).

[MplsBison]

Again, outside of the major conferences at the FBS-level, the lower level conferences: MAC, Sun-Belt, Mountain West and C-USA had an average attendance in the 15-25K range in 2012.

I'd like to think 15K is a "typical average attendance" for an FCS game in 2014 but it just isn't. The schools you noted are really outliers rather than the norm of FCS attendance today. Many schools that used to be at that level attendance-wise either went FBS awhile ago (Boise St, UConn, Marshall etc) or recently (App St, GA Southern, UMass, ODU etc).

But there are still some schools in the subdivision that live up to that standard. Until all of those schools leave the subdivision, I don't see why the standard should be dragged down to meet the under-performance of the schools currently in the subdivision.

[MplsBison]

Question in #30 - "What really is a IAA/FCS environment"? Not what you say "should be" or "is supposed to be". What "is" is not defined by the exceptions at the top any more than by the exceptions at the bottom.

They aren't exceptions. They're the true FCS programs that meeting the level of environment envisioned for the subdivision when it was created. That most programs remaining in the subdivision don't live up to that standard does not necessitate lowering the standard.

Likewise, this is reasonable for a standard that programs in the classifications can try to live up to:

DIII - 5k
DII - 10k
FCS - 15k
"Mid Major" FBS - 25k
"High Major" FBS - 40k

[Sader87]

They aren't exceptions. They're the true FCS programs that meeting the level of environment envisioned for the subdivision when it was created. That most programs remaining in the subdivision don't live up to that standard does not necessitate lowering the standard.

Likewise, this is reasonable for a standard that programs in the classifications can try to live up to:

DIII - 5k
DII - 10k
FCS - 15k
"Mid Major" FBS - 25k
"High Major" FBS - 40k

Your D3, D2 and FCS are WAY too high for 2014....particularly in the Northeast. Do you have any idea how many D3, D2 and FCS games are played just in Massachusetts on (no pun intended) any given Saturday in the Fall???

[UAalum72]

They aren't exceptions. They're the true FCS programs that meeting the level of environment envisioned for the subdivision when it was created. That most programs remaining in the subdivision don't live up to that standard does not necessitate lowering the standard.

Likewise, this is reasonable for a standard that programs in the classifications can try to live up to:

DIII - 5k
DII - 10k
FCS - 15k
"Mid Major" FBS - 25k
"High Major" FBS - 40kSince only 14 FCS teams, six Division II teams, and only THREE (count 'em, three) Division III teams drew those numbers in 2012, your "standards" are not only not reasonable, they're totally unrealistic if not insane.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Your D3, D2 and FCS are WAY too high for 2014....particularly in the Northeast. Do you have any idea how many D3, D2 and FCS games are played just in Massachusetts on (no pun intended) any given Saturday in the Fall???

I think you could fit something like eight of Massachusetts into North Dakota.

Pennsylvania has 3 FBS teams, 8 FCS teams, 17 DII teams and 24 DIII teams. That's a total of 54 NCAA football teams playing football on Saturday.

[MplsBison]

Your D3, D2 and FCS are WAY too high for 2014....particularly in the Northeast. Do you have any idea how many D3, D2 and FCS games are played just in Massachusetts on (no pun intended) any given Saturday in the Fall???

You're conflating "mean" and "standard". I'm not suggesting those numbers for the former, at all.

I don't care if you think of them as the "gold standard".

- - - Updated - - -


Since only 14 FCS teams, six Division II teams, and only THREE (count 'em, three) Division III teams drew those numbers in 2012, your "standards" are not only not reasonable, they're totally unrealistic if not insane.

Not at all. Call them a "gold standard" if you want.

[DFW HOYA]

Pennsylvania has 3 FBS teams, 8 FCS teams, 17 DII teams and 24 DIII teams. That's a total of 54 NCAA football teams playing football on Saturday.

Texas has 11 I-A, 7 I-AA, 6 D-II, 10 D-III, a half dozen NAIA teams...and over 1400 high schools all competing for attention every weekend, with enrollments ranging from Marathon HS (enrollment: 9, plays 6-man football) to Allen (enrollment 5,987).

(Yes, that's the same Allen HS that built a $60M stadium, And what happened? Enrollment grew 50% in the past two years and its state playoff game at JerryWorld drew 54,347, or more than about 15 different college bowl games.)

http://www.uiltexas.org/files/alignments/2014-RR-Rank-Order.pdf

But back to Georgetown...GU has 7 commits listed on the Web so far. Hope there are more on the way....

[Sader87]

In this age of internet-streaming, ever expanding entertainment choices, more familial obligations (weekend kid's soccer etc)...I doubt we'll ever see many crowds at FCS-games (outside of big rivalry games) of 15K+ outside of the few big state U's that play at the FCS-level. There are a lot of CAA schools (Richmond, W&M, UNH, Villanova etc.) that can't even physically have a crowd of 15K as their stadia aren't that big.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hope there are more on the way....

There are.

[MplsBison]

In this age of internet-streaming, ever expanding entertainment choices, more familial obligations (weekend kid's soccer etc)...I doubt we'll ever see many crowds at FCS-games (outside of big rivalry games) of 15K+ outside of the few big state U's that play at the FCS-level. There are a lot of CAA schools (Richmond, W&M, UNH, Villanova etc.) that can't even physically have a crowd of 15K as their stadia aren't that big.

*shrug*

Not interested in the excuses for why FCS programs out east can't live up to the gold standard. NDSU, Montana, Montana St don't have a problem meeting it.

[Bill]

With all due respect, I believe you guys are comparing apples and oranges.

The posters haven’t been offering up excuses; they are stating fact. One can’t compare NDSU, Montana, and Montana State to small private schools in the east.
One could look at this discussion another way. Forget about 97% of the schools playing FCS football not living up to some sort of gold standard, and ask the real question – why aren’t these schools playing FBS like they are supposed to? NDSU and Montana State are both land grand universities…why can’t they draw fans like Penn State University and The University of Nebraska?

[MplsBison]

With all due respect, I believe you guys are comparing apples and oranges.

The posters haven’t been offering up excuses; they are stating fact. One can’t compare NDSU, Montana, and Montana State to small private schools in the east.
One could look at this discussion another way. Forget about 97% of the schools playing FCS football not living up to some sort of gold standard, and ask the real question – why aren’t these schools playing FBS like they are supposed to? NDSU and Montana State are both land grand universities…why can’t they draw fans like Penn State University and The University of Nebraska?

The reason one does compare those three to "small private schools in the east" is because they're classified the same, of course.

I'd love for NDSU to be in FBS, in which case they'd be shooting next for the "mid major" FBS gold standard of 25k. They'd need a new stadium to make it there. All in good time, my friend.