UMass Move To FBS: "A Financial Disaster"

[superman7515]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/12/13/umass-football-subsidy-exceeds-projections/LdMZCquclCgNI7YFMYWeNP/story.html


Students and taxpayers have spent $1 million more than projected to help fund the first two seasons of the UMass Amherst football team’s ambitious — and so far disappointing — upgrade to elite collegiate competition, according to a report presented Thursday to the university’s Faculty Senate.
The subsidy, known as institutional support, is expected to exceed projections by an additional $600,000 next season, reaching $5.1 million of the $7.8 million football budget. The overrun is considered a reflection of the Minutemen’s struggle to generate enthusiasm for the upgrade, which included moving most of the team’s home games to Gillette Stadium.

The report triggered a new round of complaints that UMass leaders invested scarce public dollars that could have been better spent when they elevated the football team in 2012 to the NCAA’s top Football Bowl Subdivision.

“What becomes clearer each year is that this is a huge financial disaster for the university,’’ said Max Page, a co-chairman of the school’s Ad Hoc Committee on FBS Football, which prepared the report.


The committee is composed of faculty, students, and staff, including leaders of the athletic department.

[IBleedYellow]

Dead Weight Program.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Someone needs to send that to lakesbison who was on Bison Feedback last night squawkin about how nobody in FCS can compete with NDSU and that's why we should jump.

reposting to Bisonville.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

UMass's program can start drawing more fans, but they need to start winning some games and finish the renovations to McGuirk so that they can start playing games on campus.

[IBleedYellow]

Weren't they averaging less than 5,000 per game for PLAYOFFS before their jump? Sounds like poor managing on their administrations part.

[JayJ79]

Too many people seem to assume that making the jump to FBS will automatically mean all sorts of cash rolling in for the program, which is quite dumb. Especially when that program has to rent out a pro stadium, which can't be cheap.

But on the flipside, I don't think two (transitional) years is really enough of a timeframe to adequately judge the merits of such a jump.

In any case, at least it demonstrates how much of a financial liability/risk such a move constitutes.

[UNHWildcat18]

Umass is the perfect example of a school with potential to be successful at the FBS level but handled the transition in the WORST possible ways. Here is what they should have done.

After 2011 season announce plans to move to FBS.
Announce that FBS play will start in full for 2014 season.
After 2011 season do the renovations they are doing to McQuirk but Build a second level on one side with a new pressbox on top along with a student section on the other side of the endzone. aside from performance center half. they could still have suites and whatever else above the student section. Renovate the other pressbox a small amount. new paint interior ect to match the rest of the new stadium Now you probably have a capacity of 25-28k Perfect size for them. Doing the renovations after the move is just dumb. Facilities already in place would have helped them more with recruiting.
Take two seasons still in FCS to recruit FBS talent and increase schollies from 63-85 (ODU perfect example)
by 2014 season stadium is done. third year of FBS recruiting, team in a better position for fbs game play. That would have also given them time to find the right coach ect..
Use Gillette for huge games if needed.
Price tag on stadium okay around 50 Million but it's a one time deal and they already spent 34 million on the rest right? and they would have saved on the gillette deal.
So yeah IMHO

[Seawolf97]

I have to agree with you. They went too fast and to far ( Gillette) all at once. Old Dominion and Charlotte will be ok going forward. The good news is Stacey Bedell has transferred to SBU this weekend from U Mass. He was one of the best on Long Island and was recruited heavily by a number of FCS and FBS teams including Syracuse and Pitt.

[Yotes]

Playing in Gillette once a year could possibly be special for the fans, but doing it every single game for years is a terrible idea. They clearly didn't plan for the jump, they just did it.

[NHwildEcat]

Too many people seem to assume that making the jump to FBS will automatically mean all sorts of cash rolling in for the program, which is quite dumb. Especially when that program has to rent out a pro stadium, which can't be cheap.

But on the flipside, I don't think two (transitional) years is really enough of a timeframe to adequately judge the merits of such a jump.

In any case, at least it demonstrates how much of a financial liability/risk such a move constitutes.

I don't have any link to verify this, but if I recall correctly they are using Gillette rent free and are giving a precentage of ticket sales/concessions to the Kraft family. I believe that is how the situation is being handled. Again, I can't verify that but that is how I remember it.

[superman7515]

I remember it the same way. The Kraft family wanted more games there and allowed UMass to use rent free.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't have any link to verify this, but if I recall correctly they are using Gillette rent free and are giving a precentage of ticket sales/concessions to the Kraft family. I believe that is how the situation is being handled. Again, I can't verify that but that is how I remember it.

Here: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2011/04/21/rent_free_deal_at_gillette_allows_umass_to_climb_t o_fbs/

[NHwildEcat]

^^^^thanks!

[ccd494]

I've had UMass people explain it to me that the options were either take a run at FBS and make some money or shutter the program. If those were the stark decisions, they made the right call, why not roll the dice?

If that was an exaggeration, it remains as stupid an idea now as it was then. No student is going to drive all the way from Amherst to Foxboro to see UMass play Western Michigan. If you are a college athletics program in New England, stay in your lane. Non-BC and UConn schools aren't going to get 20,000 for football. Be happy with your 6-8k max, augment that income with the 4,000-6,000 you can get for 18 hockey games, and call it good.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've had UMass people explain it to me that the options were either take a run at FBS and make some money or shutter the program. If those were the stark decisions, they made the right call, why not roll the dice?

If that was an exaggeration, it remains as stupid an idea now as it was then. No student is going to drive all the way from Amherst to Foxboro to see UMass play Western Michigan. If you are a college athletics program in New England, stay in your lane. Non-BC and UConn schools aren't going to get 20,000 for football. Be happy with your 6-8k max, augment that income with the 4,000-6,000 you can get for 18 hockey games, and call it good.

As far back as I can remember, UMass was exaggerating the "losses" of their football program in an effort to get the FBS train rolling, JMHO.

[UNHFan]

Listen everyone suffers during the play-offs the kids are home.. its just a fact. Plus CF is low on the list in the Northeast

[UNHWildcat18]

Listen everyone suffers during the play-offs the kids are home.. its just a fact. Plus CF is low on the list in the Northeast

Very T\true but I think it is on the rise, I personally Root for BC UCONN UMASS and I guess Syracuse to do well in football every year, hell I even want URI UMAINE to do well along with us (except when they play us of course). I fear for umass though, their schedule next year is not any easier.

[PaladinFan]

Someone needs to send that to lakesbison who was on Bison Feedback last night squawkin about how nobody in FCS can compete with NDSU and that's why we should jump.

reposting to Bisonville.

NDSU is the team of the moment. They won't be the team of the moment forever.

[DFW HOYA]

If you are a college athletics program in New England, stay in your lane.

UMass was trying to duplicate what UConn did, but the MAC isn't a draw.

[Sader87]

UMass was trying to duplicate what UConn did, but the MAC isn't a draw.

Nor will the AAC be ultimately for UConn football probably.

The FCS is a "tricky level" imo. It works well (as far as you can define "well") for schools that can afford it i.e. the Ivies/PL schools, the schools where it is the "only show in town" i.e. Delaware, Montana, NDSU etc but it is a very costly, probably bordering on financial malfeasance to have an FCS-level program at a lot of schools around the country.

UMass was really not getting much, if any, "bang for its buck" playing at the FCS-level and probably will either stay at the FBS-level or drop the program altogether moving forward.

[bkrownd]

No student is going to drive all the way from Amherst to Foxboro to see UMass play Western Michigan.

They don't make any money on the students. I went to many years of free games at McGuirk. They wanted to create a state-wide fan base, including alumni and parents, from outside of the university and beyond sleepy little Hampshire County. The university has always had a problem with state-wide recognition.

With the sweetheart deal at Gillette they decided to go whole-hog. Problem is, the program hit a low point the same year they moved and now they don't even have the "chairback seat" die-hards that used to show up at McGuirk in the November rain.

[Mattymc727]

I think not winning was the biggest problem too. If Umass was competitive from the get go, citizens of Massachusetts would have embraced the team more. Being one of the worst programs in FBS, and probably not even a playoff team in FCS made this a terrible decision. Winning will fix everything. I just wonder if they can do it before going bankrupt.

[bkrownd]

Playing in Gillette once a year could possibly be special for the fans, but doing it every single game for years is a terrible idea. They clearly didn't plan for the jump, they just did it.

Basically, it's the UConn model, except UConn moved when their program was peaking, and to a better conference. (UConn beat UMass twice in their last real I-AA season) UConn already had more of a state-wide fan base, though.

[Sader87]

The fact of the matter is that this region is just not a "FBS friendly" (or "FCS-friendly") one. Even BC, the lone BCS program in the area and one with a fair amount of success nationally over the years, has struggled both on and off the field in this Century.

Both BC and UMass can be "successful" at the FBS-level moving forward but neither is ever going to have the type of success similar to what's seen in other FBS programs around the country: weekly sell-out crowds, full media attention etc etc

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People also should not underestimate the fact that Temple was supposed to be UMass' "rival and nearby opponent" in the MAC before the Big East sucked them up. Now UConn and Temple are in the AAC and UMass is really on an island.

UMass' bid for FBS also, it's worth remembering, seems to all along have been for a play for the Big East. Now the Big East in football is the AAC and everything is in tatters. If the Big East were alive today the way it was, everything would be different.

The larger issue is not UMass per se, IMO, it's more the fact that Buffalo, UMass, UConn, and Temple can't join up with two or three more FBS-playing schools (Army? Navy?) and start a football-only conference. UB, UMass, UConn and Temple are all in trouble, really, and need to pull something together to make football make more sense.

[bkrownd]

The fact of the matter is that this region is just not a "FBS friendly" (or "FCS-friendly") one

Nah, if the team was playing for a major conference title and scheduling recoginized programs the place would be sold out and loud (and probably obscene). I don't believe the old tale that college programs in the northeast can't pack the stadium. There just isn't much history of it, so people lazily assume that it can't be done. There are plenty of people in that area to fill the stadium, under the right circumstances.

BTW, is Massachusetts playing any of you guys next season?

[texcap]

UMass was really not getting much, if any, "bang for its buck" playing at the FCS-level and probably will either stay at the FBS-level or drop the program altogether moving forward.
That raises an interesting question. I know that many FCS schools have dropped football (Hofstra, ETSU, Boston U, etc.) but have any FBS (or 1A when that was term used) ever dropped football?

[UNHWildcat18]

People also should not underestimate the fact that Temple was supposed to be UMass' "rival and nearby opponent" in the MAC before the Big East sucked them up. Now UConn and Temple are in the AAC and UMass is really on an island.

UMass' bid for FBS also, it's worth remembering, seems to all along have been for a play for the Big East. Now the Big East in football is the AAC and everything is in tatters. If the Big East were alive today the way it was, everything would be different.

The larger issue is not UMass per se, IMO, it's more the fact that Buffalo, UMass, UConn, and Temple can't join up with two or three more FBS-playing schools (Army? Navy?) and start a football-only conference. UB, UMass, UConn and Temple are all in trouble, really, and need to pull something together to make football make more sense.

I agree with Pitt, West Virginia, Maryland, Rutgers, Boston College, Syracuse, out of the picture it makes it hard on Umass, UConn, Temple, Buffalo, Army, and Navy to find a home, good football conference. I hate that its all about money now over regional rivals.

[bkrownd]

That raises an interesting question. I know that many FCS schools have dropped football (Hofstra, ETSU, Boston U, etc.) but have any FBS (or 1A when that was term used) ever dropped football?

How soon we forget. Pacific, Fullerton, Long Beach, Wichita, Lamar....

[Sader87]

Nah, if the team was playing for a major conference title and scheduling recoginized programs the place would be sold out and loud (and probably obscene). I don't believe the old tale that college programs in the northeast can't pack the stadium. There just isn't much history of it, so people lazily assume that it can't be done. There are plenty of people in that area to fill the stadium, under the right circumstances.

BTW, is Massachusetts playing any of you guys next season?

I used to be of that belief as well but sadly "the times they are a changin'" particularly with regards to D1 football in the Northeast.

Too many options out there today. Be it away from the stadium itself (youth sports on weekends, other recreation etc) or ways to not to go to the stadium itself but still watch (TV, internet etc)

[ccd494]

BTW, is Massachusetts playing any of you guys next season?

I'm guessing our phone number was just misplaced.

[Bogus Megapardus]

There's a lot of competition for football attendance in a very small geographic footprint in Massachusetts. The Lord Jeffs of Amherst College draw 4,000 - sometimes more.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm guessing our phone number was just misplaced.

You guys have phones up there? Who knew. xcoolx

[danefan]

There's a lot of competition for football attendance in a very small geographic footprint in Massachusetts. The Lord Jeffs of Amherst College draw 4,000 - sometimes more.

Amherst averaged 1900 this year and in 2010 they averaged under 1000.

UMass has always really hovered between 10,000-13,000 average.

[Sader87]

Amherst averaged 1900 this year and in 2010 they averaged under 1000.

UMass has always really hovered between 10,000-13,000 average.

And that's essentially what a lot of MAC schools draw now.

I just don't see 25K+ or there abouts going to McGuirk weekly to see Akron, W. Michigan, Buffalo etc. in the future.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And that's essentially what a lot of MAC schools draw now.

I just don't see 25K+ or there abouts going to McGuirk weekly to see Akron, W. Michigan, Buffalo etc. in the future.

But in that fictional league with UConn, Temple, Buffalo, Army, Navy.... what do they draw? Maybe approaching 25K. JMHO.

[Sader87]

But in that fictional league with UConn, Temple, Buffalo, Army, Navy.... what do they draw? Maybe approaching 25K. JMHO.

Probably somewhat but such a hypothetical football league exists only in our minds here. There are too many conflicting agendas between these schools: UConn and Temple (and Umass) are hoop schools first, Army and Navy have their own issues etc. Don't see it ever happening.

[DFW HOYA]

There's a lot of competition for football attendance in a very small geographic footprint in Massachusetts. The Lord Jeffs of Amherst College draw 4,000 - sometimes more.

Massachusetts is the 14th largest state by population in the nation (6.6 million). The entire state of Nebraska is only 1.8 million.

An average of 20,000 per game would represent just 0.003 of the Bay State on any one weekend.

[Sader87]

Massachusetts is the 14th largest state by population in the nation (6.6 million). The entire state of Nebraska is only 1.8 million.

An average of 20,000 per game would represent just 0.003 of the Bay State on any one weekend.

In a way, you're making the counter-argument. Yes, Mass. has a large population but in a way that means there are more entertainment options, many more collegial allegiances etc than everyone going to Big State U on Saturday to watch the game.

[citdog]

couldn't happen to a nicer bunch. mass is the WORST of the northeast yankee scum.......and that is saying SOMETHING!

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

couldn't happen to a nicer bunch. mass is the WORST of the northeast yankee scum.......and that is saying SOMETHING!


Heck, in TX, anything north of the Red River is 'yankee'.....I spend 1/2 the year there...

[JayJ79]

The FCS is a "tricky level" imo. It works well (as far as you can define "well") for schools that can afford it i.e. the Ivies/PL schools, the schools where it is the "only show in town" i.e. Delaware, Montana, NDSU etc but it is a very costly, probably bordering on financial malfeasance to have an FCS-level program at a lot of schools around the country.

UMass was really not getting much, if any, "bang for its buck" playing at the FCS-level and probably will either stay at the FBS-level or drop the program altogether moving forward.

non-"power conference" (i.e. BCS) FBS, is just as "tricky", and you have to pay for 22 more scholarships (and other higher costs)

[Sader87]

non-"power conference" (i.e. BCS) FBS, is just as "tricky", and you have to pay for 22 more scholarships (and other higher costs)

Absolutely agree and why I'll think you'll see an end to 85 scholarships at a lot of FBS schools sooner rather than later.

This is all going to shake out soon, it'll be interesting.

[JayJ79]

Absolutely agree and why I'll think you'll see an end to 85 scholarships at a lot of FBS schools sooner rather than later.

This is all going to shake out soon, it'll be interesting.
I know there is talk of the big money conferences breaking away (either ditching the NCAA, or more likely, creating their own subdivision), which is essentially just formalizing what is already reality.

If that happens, I think it would make more sense for the rest of FBS to scale back some, essentially merging that 'second tier' FBS with FCS. at either the 63-scholarship level, or perhaps slightly higher (70?, but not 85). rather than FCS teams trying to jump up. Then possibly creating a subdivision for those who don't do the full allotment of athletic schollys (PFL, Ivy, Patriot, etc.)

[danefan]

I don't think 20,000 at McGuirk is out for realm of possibility. They should average 15,000 or so no matter what and could push that over if they start to win.

Northeast football fans don't tolerate losing well. Winning is key.

[KAUMASS]

I've been pretty quiet watching the transition over the last two years. I don't expect any drastic improvement by year four. Gillette was available rent free and the MAC called, and we said yes because the goal was to lose less money in FBS than when we were in FCS. Goal accomplished in year 2. If Northern Illinois went to a BCS game this year, we would have turned a profit. Our record sucks and we've been embarrassed, but were losing less money!! Yeah, it's bittersweet at best.
The team wasn't at the cream of the crop when we moved up, heck, most of the CAA would have beaten us this year or given us a good game. (not a knock on Maine-they pummeled us.) Our scholarship level was down in the 50's when we transitioned and the program was in a spiral with the previous coach. We lost a lot of scholly players to defection. Hired a new coach 2 years ago with only a couple of weeks to recruit his first class. Problem is, you can only give out a max scholarship limit of 25 per year. IF you have 35 scholarships to fill, you can only give out 25. Blows chunks. We were around 70'ish scholly players this year. We will not be at a full 85 scholarship players until 2015, our fourth year of transition. Judgement year!!

We are also flat out schedule crazy out of conference games for the money. Were taking a beating for $, and yes we paid Maine to give us a beating as well. Maine was suppose to be our breather after Wisconsin this year..oops. Next year we open up with BC, Colorado, Vanderbilt and Penn State, then play a full MAC schedule. Take the money and run for now, we'll be competitive in a few years. Maybe, Maybe not. We will have the talent by then, coaching not so sure. We will be losing less money though. This will thus become the UMass football model. Lose less money than in FCS!!

The Boston Globe has had a h***-on for negative UMass football articles forever. They actually changed the name of that article 4 times during the day it was released. Their darlings are the Beagles from Chestnut Hill.
Our current coach came in on a high horse from Notre Dame with the spread. I'm not going to judge him officially until year 4. I'm not super psyched with what I've seen and heard so far, but I will cut him some slack as this is an enormous task.

Congrats to UMaine on a great year. UNH is looking good and peaking at the right time. Hopefully we can have a CAA FCS championship of Towson-UNH.

[JayJ79]

If Northern Illinois went to a BCS game this year, we would have turned a profit.

"turning a profit" would mean not relying on millions of dollars of institutional support. Are you saying that if NIU had gotten a BCS bowl game, then UMass would have gotten an extra five million dollars?

[Mr. C]

As far back as I can remember, UMass was exaggerating the "losses" of their football program in an effort to get the FBS train rolling, JMHO.
Not just an opinion. It would be easy to document some of former AD Bob Marcus' comments on the subject as far back as 1998, when he and others at UMass complained at what they were spending on the way to winning a I-AA national championship. I personally sat in panel discussions he was apart of in the early 2000s when Marcus was promoting the idea of bowl games for FCS instead of the playoff structure we all love (the lone voice in the wilderness in that regard, thankfully). A lot of those losses, incidently, were just dumb expenditures during those playoff runs in 1998 and 2006 (when the Minutemen were national runner-ups).

As far as what has happened to UMass, all I can say is a lot of us told them so.

[Mr. C]

I've been pretty quiet watching the transition over the last two years. I don't expect any drastic improvement by year four. Gillette was available rent free and the MAC called, and we said yes because the goal was to lose less money in FBS than when we were in FCS. Goal accomplished in year 2. If Northern Illinois went to a BCS game this year, we would have turned a profit. Our record sucks and we've been embarrassed, but were losing less money!! Yeah, it's bittersweet at best.
The team wasn't at the cream of the crop when we moved up, heck, most of the CAA would have beaten us this year or given us a good game. (not a knock on Maine-they pummeled us.) Our scholarship level was down in the 50's when we transitioned and the program was in a spiral with the previous coach. We lost a lot of scholly players to defection. Hired a new coach 2 years ago with only a couple of weeks to recruit his first class. Problem is, you can only give out a max scholarship limit of 25 per year. IF you have 35 scholarships to fill, you can only give out 25. Blows chunks. We were around 70'ish scholly players this year. We will not be at a full 85 scholarship players until 2015, our fourth year of transition. Judgement year!!

We are also flat out schedule crazy out of conference games for the money. Were taking a beating for $, and yes we paid Maine to give us a beating as well. Maine was suppose to be our breather after Wisconsin this year..oops. Next year we open up with BC, Colorado, Vanderbilt and Penn State, then play a full MAC schedule. Take the money and run for now, we'll be competitive in a few years. Maybe, Maybe not. We will have the talent by then, coaching not so sure. We will be losing less money though. This will thus become the UMass football model. Lose less money than in FCS!!

The Boston Globe has had a h***-on for negative UMass football articles forever. They actually changed the name of that article 4 times during the day it was released. Their darlings are the Beagles from Chestnut Hill.
Our current coach came in on a high horse from Notre Dame with the spread. I'm not going to judge him officially until year 4. I'm not super psyched with what I've seen and heard so far, but I will cut him some slack as this is an enormous task.

Congrats to UMaine on a great year. UNH is looking good and peaking at the right time. Hopefully we can have a CAA FCS championship of Towson-UNH.
I have to laugh about the Boston Globe writing negative articles on any subject. The Globe has to be one of the most negative-driven publications in America. Just ask any athlete who has ever been torn down in that town. Even Ted Williams, maybe the greatest baseball hitter of all-time, wasn't immune.

[Mr. C]

non-"power conference" (i.e. BCS) FBS, is just as "tricky", and you have to pay for 22 more scholarships (and other higher costs)
Actually it is 44 more scholarships with Title IX, unless you choose the cowardly way out and cut men's minor sports programs to make up all, or part of the difference.

[Mr. C]

I think not winning was the biggest problem too. If Umass was competitive from the get go, citizens of Massachusetts would have embraced the team more. Being one of the worst programs in FBS, and probably not even a playoff team in FCS made this a terrible decision. Winning will fix everything. I just wonder if they can do it before going bankrupt.
Doug Fullerton, the commissioner of the Big Sky Conference, presented some historic information at one of the seminars I attended several years back about how all of the studies on football/athletic expenditures show that it is almost impossible for a school that enters FBS in the lowest quadrant in spending to ever climb out of the lowest quadrant.

[dgtw]

If they ever do create a division in between FBS and FCS, I hope they require the following of anybody who wants to be in the new division.

1. Everyone must award the full number of possible scholarships or at least very close to it.

2. Everyone conference champ must participate in the playoffs.

[DFW HOYA]

If they ever do create a division in between FBS and FCS, I hope they require the following of anybody who wants to be in the new division.

1. Everyone must award the full number of possible scholarships or at least very close to it.

2. Everyone conference champ must participate in the playoffs.

Her's how to solve point one: change the rules to allow this subdivison to offer football as a counter sport, not an equivalency sport.

[Tim James]

The larger issue is not UMass per se, IMO, it's more the fact that Buffalo, UMass, UConn, and Temple can't join up with two or three more FBS-playing schools (Army? Navy?) and start a football-only conference. UB, UMass, UConn and Temple are all in trouble, really, and need to pull something together to make football make more sense.

Makes sense but with everyone looking out for their own interests I dont see how it can be done. You can say all those schools you mentioned have a common interest but we know UConn's only goal is to get into a P5 conference and could care less about those other schools.

[T-Dog]

We lost a lot of scholly players to defection. Hired a new coach 2 years ago with only a couple of weeks to recruit his first class. Problem is, you can only give out a max scholarship limit of 25 per year. IF you have 35 scholarships to fill, you can only give out 25. Blows chunks. We were around 70'ish scholly players this year. We will not be at a full 85 scholarship players until 2015, our fourth year of transition. Judgement year!!

This is why App State and Georgia Southern went to 70-72 schollies this past year and decided to forego the FCS playoffs. With seniors graduating and players leaving as they always do, it was insurance to get to 85 for next season.

[ThompsonThe]

This is why App State and Georgia Southern went to 70-72 schollies this past year and decided to forego the FCS playoffs. With seniors graduating and players leaving as they always do, it was insurance to get to 85 for next season.

Biggest problem with that is only being able to bring in 25 scholarship players in any one year. Yet some schools have signed more previously. Don't understand how that can be. They gave a bunch of scholarships to walk ons just to get to 72 or whatever. Held out all except a couple of freshmen. Sounds like will take a lot of years to get to truly 85 scholarship players with those walk ons holding some of the scholarships.
How will they catch up?

[ccd494]

Biggest problem with that is only being able to bring in 25 scholarship players in any one year. Yet some schools have signed more previously. Don't understand how that can be. They gave a bunch of scholarships to walk ons just to get to 72 or whatever. Held out all except a couple of freshmen. Sounds like will take a lot of years to get to truly 85 scholarship players with those walk ons holding some of the scholarships.
How will they catch up?

FCS schools don't have to follow the 25/year limit because they are allowed to give out partial scholarships.

[JayJ79]

If they ever do create a division in between FBS and FCS, I hope they require the following of anybody who wants to be in the new division.

1. Everyone must award the full number of possible scholarships or at least very close to it.

2. Everyone conference champ must participate in the playoffs.

is anyone really discussing creating a subdivision between FCS and FBS?
I know the money conferences are looking to create their own spiel, but that's not between FCS and FBS. Though if the money conferences created their own thing, I could see the remaining FBS and FCS subdivisions being restructured to some extent

[umassfan]

Well dont be shocked if UMass joins a new conference next season for all sports. Its coming... Just wait.

[dgtw]

is anyone really discussing creating a subdivision between FCS and FBS?
I know the money conferences are looking to create their own spiel, but that's not between FCS and FBS. Though if the money conferences created their own thing, I could see the remaining FBS and FCS subdivisions being restructured to some extent

Well, if the BCS group did split off, it would by default create a bridge division between BCS and FCS.

[Laker]

Well dont be shocked if UMass joins a new conference next season for all sports. Its coming... Just wait.

Which conference are they going to?

[DFW HOYA]

Well dont be shocked if UMass joins a new conference next season for all sports. Its coming... Just wait.

Spolier: the conference doesn't include Lafayette.

Seriously, the AAC is already at 12 by 2015, as is the Sun Belt. No other good choices out there unless they go in as a tandem entry with James Madison.

[danefan]

Doesn't the MAC still have the option to get rid of UMass after this year? I thought since Temple left, there was a clause in the MAC contract that allowed it to expel UMass?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Spolier: the conference doesn't include Lafayette.

Seriously, the AAC is already at 12 by 2015, as is the Sun Belt. No other good choices out there unless they go in as a tandem entry with James Madison.


Doesn't the MAC still have the option to get rid of UMass after this year? I thought since Temple left, there was a clause in the MAC contract that allowed it to expel UMass?

All of a sudden, a football-only conference with UConn, UMass, Temple, Buffalo, Army, Navy doesn't sound all that unreasonable, huh? You could maybe add Cincinnati and Old Dominion to that, mix, too. Voila: 8 teams, 5 OOC games for the academies.

[Waco Kid]

Spolier: the conference doesn't include Lafayette.

Seriously, the AAC is already at 12 by 2015, as is the Sun Belt. No other good choices out there unless they go in as a tandem entry with James Madison.

The Sun Belt only has 11 teams with WKU leaving after this year. I seriously doubt we would add UMass, but we do have Idaho as a football only member so it's not unheard of.

[UNHWildcat18]

Coach Molnar got the boot today.. I feel bad for him, got brought in to a crappy fcs squad... Lets be honest they were 5-6 the last year in the caa, and had to go and compete in the MAC his first two years. Even his classes were what sophomores this year or redshirt freshman...
http://www.umassathletics.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/122613aaa.html

[DFW HOYA]

All of a sudden, a football-only conference with UConn, UMass, Temple, Buffalo, Army, Navy doesn't sound all that unreasonable, huh? You could maybe add Cincinnati and Old Dominion to that, mix, too. Voila: 8 teams, 5 OOC games for the academies.

More likely, UMass will plead to join the AAC. The cost to start a football-only conference without a TV partner or bowl tie-ins is considerable.

[Go...gate]

More likely, UMass will plead to join the AAC. The cost to start a football-only conference without a TV partner or bowl tie-ins is considerable.

Agreed. I can't see Navy staying in that conference, though.

[ngineer]

These schools that think moving to FBS will somehow result in oodles of cash coming in is fantasy. "Legends in their own minds".

[UNHWildcat18]

as far as FBS schools the teams from maryland to Mass/NY are too spread out in terms of FBS affiliation but all of the top power ones couldn't stick together. BC CUSE PITT RUTGER MARYLAND UCONN CINCY WEST VIRGINIA UMASS BUFFALO NAVY not a bad conference with limited travel cost but BCS desiring schools. But they will always be spread out. Rutgers and Maryland have no business being in the big ten Maryland is dumb for leaving the acc

[JimLU]

The stability of the Big Ten was a strong lure for Maryland. The long term Big Ten Network $$$$$'s the league and the Terps are going to make by capturing the DC-Baltimore TV cable markets meant even more to make this ACC divorce/BIG10 marriage happen. Rutgers had nothing to lose and everything to gain, while the Big Ten did the Rutgers deal primarily in hopes of getting into the NYC cable market and the need for east coast scheduling balance. Plus Rutgers adds a substantial amount of academic prestige. I hate it too, but they're all following the money like trained bloodhounds.

[DFW HOYA]

The stability of the Big Ten was a strong lure for Maryland.

The money of the Big Ten was a strong lure for Maryland. The school was seriously in debt for over-expansion on Byrd Stadium and cutting sports had not reduced the annual deficits.

[Mattymc727]

Dan Shaughnessy's take on it:

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/2013/12/27/moving-was-big-time-mistake-for-umass-football/O447IvTIZLILXjkmj2DCgJ/story.html

[MplsBison]

Her's how to solve point one: change the rules to allow this subdivison to offer football as a counter sport, not an equivalency sport.

Nice try. That no more "solves" the actual issue he was lamenting about than introducing pay-per-use ("Lexus lanes") on the freeway "solves" rush hour traffic.

In other words, just because any student-athlete with a fraction of a scholarship counts as a whole scholarship against doesn't mean the school actually has to nor will they award a whole scholarship. Ie, Georgetown goes from 20.4 equivalencies to 55 counters....who are still only getting 20.4 full scholarship equivalents worth of aid.

[MplsBison]

Well, if the BCS group did split off, it would by default create a bridge division between BCS and FCS.

I can't believe people still think FBS is going to split any time soon.

They just went through a huge, one-every-couple-decades level effort to hammer out and sign the CFP agreement. The FBS is stable, as far as which conferences are in existence, for at least the next 12 years.

[MplsBison]

"turning a profit" would mean not relying on millions of dollars of institutional support. Are you saying that if NIU had gotten a BCS bowl game, then UMass would have gotten an extra five million dollars?

Students themselves vote on whether their athletics fees should be increased to support a move to FBS. If they vote yes, nothing more can be said.

[darell1976]

I can't believe people still think FBS is going to split any time soon.

They just went through a huge, one-every-couple-decades level effort to hammer out and sign the CFP agreement. The FBS is stable, as far as which conferences are in existence, for at least the next 12 years.

Do you see it happening at all?? I see it between 2015-2019. (just a guess but it will happen before the decade is done.)

[MplsBison]

Nor will the AAC be ultimately for UConn football probably.

The FCS is a "tricky level" imo. It works well (as far as you can define "well") for schools that can afford it i.e. the Ivies/PL schools, the schools where it is the "only show in town" i.e. Delaware, Montana, NDSU etc but it is a very costly, probably bordering on financial malfeasance to have an FCS-level program at a lot of schools around the country.

UMass was really not getting much, if any, "bang for its buck" playing at the FCS-level and probably will either stay at the FBS-level or drop the program altogether moving forward.

Absolutely spot on. FCS is nothing more than an expensive DII. I've known it all along, but like most NDSU fell for the kool-aid and the excitement of "moving up" in football.

Ferris St put up as much fight as any of this sub-division's "best of the best" have in the playoffs thus far.


Strictly for football (which undeniably should be treated separately from the rest of the sports), I'd support doing away with FCS altogether and abolishing the Dayton rule. Just have a single, true Division I football (FBS) and those teams who can meet those requirements for minimum sports, minimum football scholarships and academically would be allowed to join FBS as independents or form new conferences outside of the CFP agreement (ie, they won't get any of the money and their champion won't have access).

Everyone else would be forced down to DII and must comply to those rules.


It would be a very responsible proposal, financially for most FCS teams.

[MplsBison]

Do you see it happening at all?? I see it between 2015-2019. (just a guess but it will happen before the decade is done.)

At a minimum, not sooner than the 12 years of the agreement period. At most, they'll (TV execs) be clamoring to expand the playoff to 8 teams and three weekends. More money, most of which will (still) belong to the big schools but enough will flow to the rest of the FBS schools to avoid anti-trust hearings.

[Tim James]

Dan Shaughnessy's take on it:

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/2013/12/27/moving-was-big-time-mistake-for-umass-football/O447IvTIZLILXjkmj2DCgJ/story.html

Well that sure was predictable from this guy. I was surprised that he thought that they should have stayed in FCS instead of saying they should kill football alltogether. I expected him to point out how much the tax payers have spent and of course he did just that.

[DFW HOYA]

In other words, just because any student-athlete with a fraction of a scholarship counts as a whole scholarship against doesn't mean the school actually has to nor will they award a whole scholarship. Ie, Georgetown goes from 20.4 equivalencies to 55 counters....who are still only getting 20.4 full scholarship equivalents worth of aid.

Actually, the opposite. In a counter model, no competitive team is going to award partial scholarships since there's no benefit to it and teams will get crushed playing below the division standard. Kansas State tried (and failed miserably) when they were playing with as few as 49 scholarships in the late 1970's and early 1980's era pre-Bill Snyder.

A counter model drives the mean number of scholarships closer to the maximum while an equivalency model allows schools to compete well under the minimum--whether that's 20.4, 10.4, or as little as 2.5.

[MplsBison]

Actually, the opposite. In a counter model, no competitive team is going to award partial scholarships since there's no benefit to it and teams will get crushed playing below the division standard. Kansas State tried (and failed miserably) when they were playing with as few as 49 scholarships in the late 1970's and early 1980's era pre-Bill Snyder.

A counter model drives the mean number of scholarships closer to the maximum while an equivalency model allows schools to compete well under the minimum--whether that's 20.4, 10.4, or as little as 2.5.

I agree that there is a correlation between competitiveness and the amount of aid dollars given to the athletes relative to the amount of aid dollars given at other schools. That is completely decoupled from the rest of your ideas, however. And I don't understand why you aren't grasping that.


The simple fact is that Georgetown can not print money. But your idea is basically that the Georgetown administration will be thoughtful and say the following: "we're only providing 20.4 scholarship equivalencies worth of dollars to our football players, but that's counting the same with the NCAA as if we were providing 55 equivalencies worth of dollars. Therefore, we should just go ahead and provide those additional dollars to our players!!"

But that still means Georgetown has to pony up another 34.6 scholarship equivalencies worth of dollars to give to the football players.

If such cash is on hand to be given, why not just give it now and be that much more competitive??


Otherwise, if you're saying that Gtown admin will decide only to award full scholarships - then it just means that only 20 players will be getting full scholarships.


Again, at the end of the day it still comes back to dollars. Counter vs. equivalency doesn't change that. If Gtown is willing to spend more, then why not do that now?

[Mr. C]

Dan Shaughnessy's piece was one of the best I've read on the subject of FCS to FBS moves in a long time. I liked the Fool's Gold reference and the illusion of App State. App State is about to find out what UMass has already learned.

[MplsBison]

Dan Shaughnessy's piece was one of the best I've read on the subject of FCS to FBS moves in a long time. I liked the Fool's Gold reference and the illusion of App State. App State is about to find out what UMass has already learned.

That FCS has no business being in existence and is ultimately a money loser for all involved?

[MplsBison]

Dan Shaughnessy's take on it:

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/2013/12/27/moving-was-big-time-mistake-for-umass-football/O447IvTIZLILXjkmj2DCgJ/story.html

He was either just trying to rile UMass alumni up to sell his employer's publication or he's a lout that actually thinks winning games in a sub-division that doesn't matter and losing money to do so is a sustainable model.

Not journalistic either way.

[UNHWildcat18]

I really dislike how no one talks about how UMASS never took transition years before making the jump, that to me was the biggest mistake they made in my mind. Imagine if this next fall was their first full year in fbs after recruiting fbs talent for 3 years. They would be in a much better position, and if they did this and went like 4-8 people would be like oh not bad for a first year. NONE of the writers cover transition.

[Green26]

He was either just trying to rile UMass alumni up to sell his employer's publication or he's a lout that actually thinks winning games in a sub-division that doesn't matter and losing money to do so is a sustainable model.

Not journalistic either way.


All but the biggest/best programs lose money. Playing football at the FCS level is actually thought by many, including for example the Big Sky commissioner, to be a very attractive and sustainable model. Yes, many FCS programs don't break even, and thus lose money, and require subsidies. The alternative, however, is often losing more money by playing at the FBS level. Why is losing more money at the FBS more sustainable than losing less money at the FCS level?

[Lehigh'98]

I really dislike how no one talks about how UMASS never took transition years before making the jump, that to me was the biggest mistake they made in my mind. Imagine if this next fall was their first full year in fbs after recruiting fbs talent for 3 years. They would be in a much better position, and if they did this and went like 4-8 people would be like oh not bad for a first year. NONE of the writers cover transition.

Very good point as winning solves some financial issues and UMass never put themselves in a position to win.

[Sader87]

The move to FBS for UMass makes sense (as much as that move makes for anyone).

No offense to the Appalachian St's, GA Southern's, W. Kentucky's et. al. but UMass-Amherst is the flagship public university in a fairly cosmopolitan state that is trying to keep kids in-state rather than going to Michigan, UVa, UNC etc. A move to the FBS-level is part of that process.

It's a long, long story but UMass has always been thought of as the "red-headed step-child" in Massachusetts both academically and athletically. This is a bold move to start to change this perception.

[DFW HOYA]

UMass is filling the gap in I-A that Holy Cross left.

The Bay State should be able to support a I-A team beyond Boston College.

[Sader87]

UMass is filling the gap in I-A that Holy Cross left.

Bahstid.....lol....in a way you're right. HC's once fairly supportive and relatively numerous CMass following has all but abandoned HC in the PL-era and some have probably moved over to UMass.

[UNHWildcat18]

I agree I like Umass as an FBS team they just went about transitioning in the worst possible way... I hope they can recover

[Mr. C]

That FCS has no business being in existence and is ultimately a money loser for all involved?
And as others have pointed out, the FBS model loses even more money for most involved. I guess we should get rid of that, too.

Hard trying to talk sense to the senseless.

[Sader87]

It's really not a "one size fits all" decision. Schools like App St and Ga Southern are looking to raise their respective profiles/brands whereas UMass would be the only public institution playing FBS football in the state. A state that big in population (14th in the US) should probably have a public school playing at the highest level.

[clenz]

I really dislike how no one talks about how UMASS never took transition years before making the jump, that to me was the biggest mistake they made in my mind. Imagine if this next fall was their first full year in fbs after recruiting fbs talent for 3 years. They would be in a much better position, and if they did this and went like 4-8 people would be like oh not bad for a first year. NONE of the writers cover transition.

If you aren't recruiting fbs talent as a "top teir" fcs team before a move to the fbs you have no reason to do so.

I promise you schools like UNI, NDSU, EWU, SIU, Montana, App/GSU before the move,etc.. have been recruiting fbs level guys.

Sent from my S4 using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

#23 Umass beat Providence today in front of a sold-out crowd at the Mullins Center. It was the first sell-out in 8 years for a Minutemen hoops game. I forgot just how much the Mullins Center rocks....

[Sader87]

#23 Umass beat Providence today in front of a sold-out crowd at the Mullins Center. It was the first sell-out in 8 years for a Minutemen hoops game. I forgot just how much the Mullins Center rocks....

That's basically my point. UMass is (or has the potential to be) a pretty high-profile institution. It's much closer to being a peer institution with schools like Penn St, Rutgers, UConn etc than really most of the schools in the MAC, never mind a lot of FCS schools.

[MplsBison]

UMass is filling the gap in I-A that Holy Cross left.

The Bay State should be able to support a I-A team beyond Boston College.

No response to post #82??

Did I educate you to your satisfaction? Feedback would be appreciated, either way.

[MplsBison]

All but the biggest/best programs lose money. Playing football at the FCS level is actually thought by many, including for example the Big Sky commissioner, to be a very attractive and sustainable model. Yes, many FCS programs don't break even, and thus lose money, and require subsidies. The alternative, however, is often losing more money by playing at the FBS level. Why is losing more money at the FBS more sustainable than losing less money at the FCS level?

Did you read post #46?? I take it by your response that you did not. Please read that primer first, before you respond further.

UMass football is making more money losing games in FBS than they did winning games in FCS. That's the point. I know it flies in the face of the Fullerton sermon, but you may have to accept it regardless.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's basically my point. UMass has the potential to be a pretty high-profile institution. It wants to be UConn in the worst way...

FIFY

[Go Green]

He was either just trying to rile UMass alumni up to sell his employer's publication or he's a lout that actually thinks winning games in a sub-division that doesn't matter and losing money to do so is a sustainable model..

In the early 1990s the Globe (may even have been Shaughnessy himself) wrote a column encouraging BC to give up big-time football dreams and drop to I-AA. Holy Cross seemed to be having fun winning all the time, and going I-AA was the only way BC could do the same.

Then Tom Coughlin arrived...

[MplsBison]

In the early 1990s the Globe (may even have been Shaughnessy himself) wrote a column encouraging BC to give up big-time football dreams and drop to I-AA. Holy Cross seemed to be having fun winning all the time, and going I-AA was the only way BC could do the same.

Then Tom Coughlin arrived...

How irresponsible of them to encourage a school to basically spend the same on football expenses only to lose respect and recognition from the national football media by playing in a minor league division.

It'd be one thing if they were going to save the kind of money that dropping to DII would allow. But FCS basically costs the same without any of the reward.

[Go Green]

But FCS basically costs the same without any of the reward.

In that era, Holy Cross was going 11-0 every year. BC was going 3-8. Winning was the reward.

[SIUSalukiFan]

If you aren't recruiting fbs talent as a "top teir" fcs team before a move to the fbs you have no reason to do so.

I promise you schools like UNI, NDSU, EWU, SIU, Montana, App/GSU before the move,etc.. have been recruiting fbs level guys.

Sent from my S4 using Tapatalk

There are plenty of FBS talent guys at the FCS level. The top programs aren't stealing ESPN Top 300 players from FBS schools but we get our fair share of guys who could play in the MAC, Sun Belt, etc.

South Florida had a five-year transition period to FBS but it went from no program at all to FBS in that span. Still, your recruiting changes if you have a transition period to build your program.

[Green26]

Did you read post #46?? I take it by your response that you did not. Please read that primer first, before you respond further.

UMass football is making more money losing games in FBS than they did winning games in FCS. That's the point. I know it flies in the face of the Fullerton sermon, but you may have to accept it regardless.

Post no. 46 has nothing to do with my question and the FCS model, which was the subject of my post. Why don't you read my post, then apologize to me, and then respond to my initial post. My initial post said nothing about UMass. It was addressing your comment about the FCS model. And stop being an ass too.

[Green26]

I've been pretty quiet watching the transition over the last two years. I don't expect any drastic improvement by year four. Gillette was available rent free and the MAC called, and we said yes because the goal was to lose less money in FBS than when we were in FCS. Goal accomplished in year 2. If Northern Illinois went to a BCS game this year, we would have turned a profit. Our record sucks and we've been embarrassed, but were losing less money!! Yeah, it's bittersweet at best.
The team wasn't at the cream of the crop when we moved up, heck, most of the CAA would have beaten us this year or given us a good game. (not a knock on Maine-they pummeled us.) Our scholarship level was down in the 50's when we transitioned and the program was in a spiral with the previous coach. We lost a lot of scholly players to defection. Hired a new coach 2 years ago with only a couple of weeks to recruit his first class. Problem is, you can only give out a max scholarship limit of 25 per year. IF you have 35 scholarships to fill, you can only give out 25. Blows chunks. We were around 70'ish scholly players this year. We will not be at a full 85 scholarship players until 2015, our fourth year of transition. Judgement year!!

We are also flat out schedule crazy out of conference games for the money. Were taking a beating for $, and yes we paid Maine to give us a beating as well. Maine was suppose to be our breather after Wisconsin this year..oops. Next year we open up with BC, Colorado, Vanderbilt and Penn State, then play a full MAC schedule. Take the money and run for now, we'll be competitive in a few years. Maybe, Maybe not. We will have the talent by then, coaching not so sure. We will be losing less money though. This will thus become the UMass football model. Lose less money than in FCS!!

The Boston Globe has had a h***-on for negative UMass football articles forever. They actually changed the name of that article 4 times during the day it was released. Their darlings are the Beagles from Chestnut Hill.
Our current coach came in on a high horse from Notre Dame with the spread. I'm not going to judge him officially until year 4. I'm not super psyched with what I've seen and heard so far, but I will cut him some slack as this is an enormous task.

Congrats to UMaine on a great year. UNH is looking good and peaking at the right time. Hopefully we can have a CAA FCS championship of Towson-UNH.

Where's your support, stats, links, etc. for your statement that UMass is losing less money? Just curious. Are you factoring in your new facilities, additional scholarships for women, etc.? Seems odd that the press would be saying the move is a "financial disaster" if UMass is losing less money.

[Sader87]

There's been a long-simmering animus between a lot of the Boston media and UMass-Amherst for decades. Some of it may have been justified in the past (I honestly forget...scandals, over-rides etc) but a lot of it stems from Boston being very provincial and looking upon Amherst, Ma as if it was Ames, Ia.

Shaugnessy (who I am a little loathe to admit is a fellow HC alumnus) like a lot of longtime scribes, has turned into basically a crank that hates on just about everything that he doesn't care about (in this case college football).

[Laker]

There's been a long-simmering animus between a lot of the Boston media and UMass-Amherst for decades. Some of it may have been justified in the past (I honestly forget...scandals, over-rides etc) but a lot of it stems from Boston being very provincial and looking upon Amherst, Ma as if it was Ames, Ia.

Shaugnessy (who I am a little loathe to admit is a fellow HC alumnus) like a lot of longtime scribes, has turned into basically a crank that hates on just about everything that he doesn't care about (in this case college football).

This sounds exactly like Jim Souhan, who writes for the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. He was ripping Jerry Kill earlier this fall when he had seizures and said that he should retire. That kind of talk backfired on him.

[UNHWildcat18]

There are plenty of FBS talent guys at the FCS level. The top programs aren't stealing ESPN Top 300 players from FBS schools but we get our fair share of guys who could play in the MAC, Sun Belt, etc.

South Florida had a five-year transition period to FBS but it went from no program at all to FBS in that span. Still, your recruiting changes if you have a transition period to build your program.

Thank you! Look at ODU they were recruiting great players. took two years transition and after announcing the move to FBS those two years they were able to take in higher level recruits than before. You don't have to already be doing it, the announcement and eventual transition year or two is key.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UMass admins made at least a decade-long moan about how I-AA was financially unsustainable, and why FBS was going to allow them to make their school into another football moneymaker (read: UConn). In many ways, UMass set up this level of expectation and has mismanaged the transition and overestimated UMass fans' appetite for games in Foxboro.

To be fair, it seemed like their end game was to get their school into the Old Big East. The breakup of the Old Big East has changed everything. Before, UMass at least had something to strive for. Now, it's striving for the AAC, and survival, which is a lot different than striving for a BCS slot.

[BluBengal07]

it is a crazy mess...

[DoWe]

There's been a long-simmering animus between a lot of the Boston media and UMass-Amherst for decades. Some of it may have been justified in the past (I honestly forget...scandals, over-rides etc) but a lot of it stems from Boston being very provincial and looking upon Amherst, Ma as if it was Ames, Ia.

Shaugnessy (who I am a little loathe to admit is a fellow HC alumnus) like a lot of longtime scribes, has turned into basically a crank that hates on just about everything that he doesn't care about (in this case college football).

Yeah, C's glowing endorsement of that article left me wondering about C.