RMU and Temple dropping sports - downsizing athletics?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This week RMU and Temple dropped seven sports apiece, including track. Both schools didn't seem to do it for Title IX reasons, they did it for cost reasons, to slimline their athletics budgets.

Football survived the cut at both schools.

Thoughts?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I think this is a result of their move to the AAC. The loss of crew is probably the most hurtful. Temple has a very strong tradition in that sport. Perhaps some of this (tiny part) is in response to the growing cries to make Temple LAX a NCAA program? I think we'd be very good.

Temple, by state school standards, sponsored a lot of sports. Temple had 24 while the average for the AAC is 18. Still, this can't be seen as a "good thing".

[RabidRabbit]

Many of the sports teams suck up resources, and cost a fair amount to support. If the sports dropped are ones that the school's conference doesn't support, and they are in an auxilary league, then there isn't a whole lot of disincentives to dropping the sports, as long as the school meets the requirements to remain D-I.

Football is both a cash cow, and a highly recognized and alumni valued sport. During the fall, few things bring in more interest in a school than the football team. Yes, the schollies are a big expense, especially at private schools trying to participate at higher (FBS-Temple) and 36 schollie NEC - RMU.

[Twentysix]

Temple is public.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Temple is public.

Yup! The fact that Temple is neither a private or religious institution confuses people....

My guess is that RMU will be dumping some money into their hoops program. Their win over UK in the NIT last year was a HUGE deal for that university.

[Go Green]

Yup! The fact that Temple is neither a private or religious institution confuses people..

I've heard more than once the joke that the only thing anyone knows about Temple is that Bill Cosby went there.

:)

[GannonFan]

Yup! The fact that Temple is neither a private or religious institution confuses people....

My is guess that RMU will be dumping some money into their hoops program. Their win over UK in the NIT last year was a HUGE deal for that university.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - what really is the purpose of non-revenue, intercollegiate (i.e. scholarship) sports anyway? If no one is attending these events (how many students, in their 4 years of college, ever attend a baseball or softball or indoor track event, among other sports) and if these sports are entirely money taking sports, what's the value to the University? The numbers of these athletes on campus is miniscule compares to the student body at large, so what is the benefit of continuing to pay lots of money to a very small contingent of students to play sports that the rest of the University doesn't even come to watch? Maybe club status is the right avenue - the athletes still get to compete, the just don't cost the University nearly as much money. Just because these sports have always been scholarship sports doesn't mean they always have to be.

[Pard4Life]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - what really is the purpose of non-revenue, intercollegiate (i.e. scholarship) sports anyway? If no one is attending these events (how many students, in their 4 years of college, ever attend a baseball or softball or indoor track event, among other sports) and if these sports are entirely money taking sports, what's the value to the University? The numbers of these athletes on campus is miniscule compares to the student body at large, so what is the benefit of continuing to pay lots of money to a very small contingent of students to play sports that the rest of the University doesn't even come to watch? Maybe club status is the right avenue - the athletes still get to compete, the just don't cost the University nearly as much money. Just because these sports have always been scholarship sports doesn't mean they always have to be.

Well in that case you are challenging the entire notion of intercollegiate athletics. Essentially you will just have organized football and basketball programs. And, a majority of these programs are not profitable despite producing revenue and seeing large attendance numbers.

The value of having many sports is that they provide a diverse number of athletic endeavors at the highest level of competition in an organized fashion. It is also a way to have alumni engaged with the school that goes beyond having just one or two donors with mega bucks.

[Pard4Life]

RMU cuts: Men's indoor and outdoor track, tennis and cross country and women's golf, tennis and field hockey

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2013/more/wires/12/03/2080.ap.robert.morris.cuts.1st.ld.writethru.0611/index.html#ixzz2mjMMVSlT

[bluehenbillk]

Heck, Temple is still moving forward supposedly with plans to build an on-campus football stadium.

[GannonFan]

Well in that case you are challenging the entire notion of intercollegiate athletics. Essentially you will just have organized football and basketball programs. And, a majority of these programs are not profitable despite producing revenue and seeing large attendance numbers.

The value of having many sports is that they provide a diverse number of athletic endeavors at the highest level of competition in an organized fashion. It is also a way to have alumni engaged with the school that goes beyond having just one or two donors with mega bucks.

You can at least argue that there is soft revenue that is generated by the football and basketball programs at many colleges (i.e. the loss-leader concept). However, there's no way to do that with the vast majority of other intercollegiate sports at many universities (there are always exceptions, like baseball at many Southern schools, something like wrestling at Lehigh, and so on). For the sports that have no following or revenue potential, what does it matters that "...they provide a diverse number of athletic endeavors at the highest level of competition in an organized fashion.."? And why can't that be done at a club level? I mean, we already have D1, D2, and D3 for many sports, so anything that's not D1 isn't at the highest level of competition anyway. Does it matter that the NCAA puts their stamp on a sport? Why can't a club sport culture do the same for far less money?

As for the alumni being engaged with the school, what makes you think that alumni aren't already engaged with the school in non-sports ways? I'd argue that the bigger number of donors to a school, outside of a BCS school, in both numbers of donors and the money they donate, come from donors who have no ties to intercollegiate sports. Heck, many of the intercollegiate sports donors often donate back to their specific sport so how much are they really contrinuting to the overall University as opposed to just self-propogating the sport they played?

[Go Green]

Essentially you will just have organized football and basketball programs. And, a majority of these programs are not profitable despite producing revenue and seeing large attendance numbers.
.

And ice hockey and maybe baseball.

[DFW HOYA]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - what really is the purpose of non-revenue, intercollegiate (i.e. scholarship) sports anyway? If no one is attending these events (how many students, in their 4 years of college, ever attend a baseball or softball or indoor track event, among other sports) and if these sports are entirely money taking sports, what's the value to the University?

By that logic...

What really is the purpose of non-revenue academic majors anyway? If no one is taking these majors (how many students, in their 4 years of college, ever take a classics or anthropology or art history course, among others) and if these majors are entirely money taking programs, what's the value to the University?

The answer is a little of the same for both scenarios. Colleges aren't about providing revenue-based education, but opportunity for personal growth and a shared set of experiences. It's all part of the price of admission.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Heck, Temple is still moving forward supposedly with plans to build an on-campus football stadium.

Kevin Clark said in one of the releases that a football stadium is now "not in the plans". If that's the case, you can kiss football good bye in 2017.

A month ago there seemed to be legitimate hope that a stadium would be built. Now it appears football will battling an uphill climb to survive...

[GannonFan]

By that logic...

What really is the purpose of non-revenue academic majors anyway? If no one is taking these majors (how many students, in their 4 years of college, ever take a classics or anthropology or art history course, among others) and if these majors are entirely money taking programs, what's the value to the University?

The answer is a little of the same for both scenarios. Colleges aren't about providing revenue-based education, but opportunity for personal growth and a shared set of experiences. It's all part of the price of admission.

Well, when there aren't enough students taking particular majors, colleges eliminate those classes and majors. Happens all the time. You never hear the whining about that on message boards for art history like you do on a football message board when someone cuts men's gymnastics. If there isn't a demand for it, cut it.

[Bogus Megapardus]

By that logic...

What really is the purpose of non-revenue academic majors anyway? If no one is taking these majors (how many students, in their 4 years of college, ever take a classics or anthropology or art history course, among others) and if these majors are entirely money taking programs, what's the value to the University?

The answer is a little of the same for both scenarios. Colleges aren't about providing revenue-based education, but opportunity for personal growth and a shared set of experiences. It's all part of the price of admission.

This.

[Sader87]

We dropped fencing in 1986....

[bluehenbillk]

Kevin Clark said in one of the releases that a football stadium is now "not in the plans". If that's the case, you can kiss football good bye in 2017.

A month ago there seemed to be legitimate hope that a stadium would be built. Now it appears football will battling an uphill climb to survive...

Where did you see that? There was just a story with Temple's President last week in the Philly Daily news where he was championing the idea. They get charged $1.5M in rent to use the Linc annually.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Where did you see that? There was just a story with Temple's President last week in the Philly Daily news where he was championing the idea. They get charged $1.5M in rent to use the Linc annually.


Asked whether the changes will help Temple build a new football stadium, an idea that has been kicked around, Clark said: "That's not in my plan. I'm trying to survive with the sports we have."
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/temple/20131207_Temple_to_drop_7_sports__including_baseba ll__rowing.html#E6jUYvkeelR6L0Gc.99

Which comes about 3 weeks after President Theobald made these comments....


“My response is that we don’t really need 80,000 seats,” Theobald said. “Given the cost that they would like us to pay, we need to look at other options. We’re looking possibly on campus, possibly sharing with Penn. We’re going to need to answer that question.”

http://temple-news.com/news/2013/11/20/theobald-football-stadium-serious-discussion/

[UAalum72]

Well, when there aren't enough students taking particular majors, colleges eliminate those classes and majors. Happens all the time. You never hear the whining about that on message boards for art history like you do on a football message board when someone cuts men's gymnastics.
Actually, you do hear that kind of whining. Albany recently dropped French and Theater majors, among others. That was constantly brought up during construction of our new football stadium.

[Bogus Megapardus]

We dropped fencing in 1986....

We still have fencing. :p

[DFW HOYA]

Kevin Clark said in one of the releases that a football stadium is now "not in the plans". If that's the case, you can kiss football good bye in 2017. A month ago there seemed to be legitimate hope that a stadium would be built. Now it appears football will battling an uphill climb to survive...

Temple hasn't had a stadium of its own since 1977. But what worked until recently, doesn't work now.

The problem Temple faces (and even more so, UConn) is that when the game of conference realignment musical chairs stopped, there was no seat left for these schools. Instead of getting a check for $16 million from ESPN in the ACC, or the $3.6 million Big East football schools used to make, these schools now get $1.8 million combined (football+basketball) for being in the AAC. By contrast, the move by the Big East to leave the league, then buy back the assets including the name, was a stroke of genius, because it avoided a right of first refusal clause ESPN would have exercised on a TV deal that Fox Sports paid for. As such, these schools now get $4.2 million a year just for basketball and all the games get prime time attention, versus the ESPN treating the AAC broadcasts as mid-week filler.

So how does this fit Temple again? As an independent, or even in the Big East, Temple could somewhat justify renting the Vet/Linc for the ability to draw larger crowds when Syracuse or Pitt came to town. Its schedule is now filled with teams like SMU, Houston, East Carolina and Tulane, for whom there will be little or no out of towners to buy tickets.

Temple got a good deal when the Linc lease was done but when it comes up for renewal after 2017, it will go up in a big way and games with Memphis and South Florida won't cover it.

Its best hope right now is renting Franklin Field and taking the smaller crowds which will inevitably follow, or beg, borrow, and plead for the ACC to look its way, which isn't going to happen. The added twist is that if it didn't have football, it loses even more revenue which can't prop up the sports they already have.

[WM2001]

Welcome to the CAA, Temple.

[Tribal]

Welcome to the CAA, Temple.

No thanks.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

No thanks.

Temple would return to the A10 before joining the CAA. The Owls would dominate the CAA in hoops.

Temple has to protect basketball. So far they've done that. If football must go then so be it.

[Bill]

I'd argue that the bigger number of donors to a school, outside of a BCS school, in both numbers of donors and the money they donate, come from donors who have no ties to intercollegiate sports. Heck, many of the intercollegiate sports donors often donate back to their specific sport so how much are they really contrinuting to the overall University as opposed to just self-propogating the sport they played?

Actually, that's not entirely true...in fact it is the subject of my dissertation (which I'm currently writing)...athletics, no matter what the sport - and the connection a student makes with a mentor/coach while on campus - is very, very important at many schools..

[Tribal]

The Owls would dominate the CAA in hoops.

Tell that to Towson (CAA), who beat Temple by 6 just a couple games ago.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Tell that to Towson (CAA), who beat Temple by 6 just a couple games ago.

That means very little in the grand scheme of things in basketball. Over the course of the season Temple would be considerably better than the rest of the league. Temple was the dominant program in the A10 for 25+ years. A league that was much better than the CAA as currently constructed.

This is not going to happen so it's not worth discussing any further.

[Go...gate]

Actually, that's not entirely true...in fact it is the subject of my dissertation (which I'm currently writing)...athletics, no matter what the sport - and the connection a student makes with a mentor/coach while on campus - is very, very important at many schools..

Certainly is important at Colgate and always has been.

[Go...gate]

That means very little in the grand scheme of things in basketball. Over the course of the season Temple would be considerably better than the rest of the league. Temple was the dominant program in the A10 for 25+ years. A league that was much better than the CAA as currently constructed.

This is not going to happen so it's not worth discussing any further.

Temple is a power program in hoops. IMHO, they would go FCS in football to enter a big-time basketball conference.

[DFW HOYA]

Temple is a power program in hoops. IMHO, they would go FCS in football to enter a big-time basketball conference.

What big-time conference would take Temple right now without football? I don't see it right now--otherwise, they probably wouldn't be in the AAC.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

What big-time conference would take Temple right now without football? I don't see it right now--otherwise, they probably wouldn't be in the AAC.

We certainly would not be in the AAC without football. The MAC/A10 arrangement was pretty good but when the BE came calling we couldn't pass it up.

You can have a nationally viable hoops program in a second tier conference. The MWC, A10, MVC and WCC are all home to big time teams capable of reaching the Final Four. I'll wait to see how CUSA and the CAA fairs....

[rmutv]

One point of clarification regarding the Robert Morris cuts, even though most of the discussion has been about Temple...

RMU didn't have to cut. They were on budget, spend the second most on athletics out of anyone in the NEC. But they want to continue to raise the profile of the school. It's still fairly young in Division I terms, and it's only recently had sustained success in multiple higher profile sports (basketball with the win over Kentucky and multiple NCAA appearances in last six years plus they just hosted hockey's Frozen Four in Pittsburgh).

So they're moving money within the athletic department. They cut sports that essentially don't do much to raise the school's overall profile or cost more than they're worth. That money will go right back into the department to spend on the remaining sports.

Robert Morris is entering a new era of football with John Banaszak taking over for the retired Joe Walton after 20 years. They want to rebuild that team and be a regular NEC title contender and at least be respectable against larger FCS opponents. They want both hockey programs (including a nationally ranked woman's team) to be annual conference threats and even potential bid stealers for the NCAA Tournament. They want lacrosse to be on the cusp of being nationally ranked every year, and they want their basketball teams to be mid-major powerhouses. All because they believe that's the easiest way to gain attention and bring new students in.

It's an interesting philosophy. We'll see if it works.

[dgtw]

Of the sports dropped by the schools, how many are sponsored by their leagues and do they sponsor any non-league sports? If I'm dropping a sport, I'd rather shut down something my conference does not play.

[Bogus Megapardus]

RMU cuts: Men's indoor and outdoor track, tennis and cross country and women's golf, tennis and field hockey

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2013/more/wires/12/03/2080.ap.robert.morris.cuts.1st.ld.writethru.0611/index.html#ixzz2mjMMVSlT



RMU didn't have to cut. They were on budget, spend the second most on athletics out of anyone in the NEC. But they want to continue to raise the profile of the school.

According to the Sports Illustrated article, Robert Morris AD Craig Coleman "stressed the decision to shutter the programs had nothing to do with a desire to become more attractive to another conference." Which other conference is Coleman stressing that he has no desire to become attractive to?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

According to the Sports Illustrated article, Robert Morris AD Craig Coleman "stressed the decision to shutter the programs had nothing to do with a desire to become more attractive to another conference." Which other conference is Coleman stressing that he has no desire to become attractive to?

That's a pretty good catch, but the only one that it could possibly be if they were indeed trying to impress someone is the CAA.

[Bogus Megapardus]

That's a pretty good catch, but the only one that it could possibly be if they were indeed trying to impress someone is the CAA.

One would think.

[rmutv]

DGTW - Field hockey was in the MAAC. The rest are all NEC sports. But tennis had just a couple NEC foes, the rest of the matches were all non-conference and tournaments. Same with women's golf. Men's track and cross country were also cut. Women's crew and cross country/track weren't cut likely only for Title IX purposes. The sports cut, even the ones tied to the NEC, were not majorly successful and they weren't big regional sports. Of the remaining sports, ice hockey is the only non-NEC sport, and that's a lynch-pin of the athletic department (along with hoops and football) going forward.

Bogus - RMU has been rumored to be exploring other conference options. The problem is there just isn't a match. Either the facilities aren't advanced enough for a place like the CAA or the move puts a major program at risk out in the wild (a move to the Horizon or MAAC for all sports but football, for instance). Coleman was just responding to a question about trying to become more attractive to another conference. That's still down the road for RMU. They have other work to do first.