San Diego Declares Itself Ineligible For PFL Crown

[Model Citizen]

Athletic aid is not allowed in the Pioneer Football League.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/nov/14/usd-toreros-pfl/

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Kick the god damn pioneer out of the NCAA. Send them down to DIII at least. That is about as stupid as I've ever seen.

[clenz]

Kick the god damn pioneer out of the NCAA. Send them down to DIII at least. That is about as stupid as I've ever seen.

Your realize that's impossible, right?

There's a rule named after one of the pfl teams on the matter

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[HoyaMetanoia]

Ummm...how is that athletic aid? It's the exact same aid everyone on campus is getting, right?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

All I have to say is: Huh?

[Go Green]

That is about as stupid as I've ever seen.

Really? Because Brown got nailed for doing the exact same thing.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-08-05/sports/0008050147_1_ivy-league-coaches-football

[Fordham2012]

Is the issue that are paremeters that aid can be given? That more aid was given that what would have been given to a non-athlete with the same financial need?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Your realize that's impossible, right?

There's a rule named after one of the pfl teams on the matter

Sent from my S4 using Tapatalk

Of course I know but these schools that want to just be division 1 while maintaining what is basically a DIII football team are stupid. That doesn't make it right. This is a PFL rule, not a NCAA rule.

[clenz]

Ummm...how is that athletic aid? It's the exact same aid everyone on campus is getting, right?

If a player is recruited to play a sport at a d1 school and receive any kind of financial aid it counts as an athletic scholarship grin what I understand. Normally not an issue in football, but is in sports with a more limited number of rides.

I'm assuming USD didn't cover their paper trail well enough to skirt the rules of the pfl

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[citdog]

Of course I know but these schools that want to just be division 1 while maintaining what is basically a DIII football team are stupid. That doesn't make it right. This is a PFL rule, not a NCAA rule.

nodak and I agree on something

[clenz]

Is the issue that are paremeters that aid can be given? That more aid was given that what would have been given to a non-athlete with the same financial need?

That's my guess, and I'd also guess that it's happened before (at all pfls) but USD didn't get their papers covered well enough this year

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[Model Citizen]

Is the issue that are paremeters that aid can be given? That more aid was given that what would have been given to a non-athlete with the same financial need?

I think you are correct. The news blurb uses the term "need-based" aid, which confuses the issue. My understanding is that although the aid in question was given to cover unmet need, it was not money available to the general student population. In other words, the player got special treatment.

Not unlike what the Patriot League was doing for years, but the PFL expressly forbids aid that only athletes can get.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I blame one of those Harbaughs.

[Model Citizen]

I'm pretty sure USD compliance people caught the Toreros offering what amounts to a fraction of the equivalencies given at Georgetown. And Georgetown doesn't give much. Just a little perspective...

Hate it that the whole team is getting penalized for the athletic department's sloppiness. If USD had followed the league rules, they would still be in first place.

[Fordham2012]

I think that need-based aid in general can be very subjective, even for non-athletes. Kid gets financial aid, goes to FA offer and says, we have medical bills, younger sister in private school, I got more aid from comparable school whatever. It is not unheard of for school to throw a little more in. I doubt we will ever know the rationale.

[Lehigh'98]

Too bad, I was looking forward to watching USD knock off SHSU in the first round.

[MTfan4life]

Well there goes Montana's chance at ending its winless drought (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/bigsky/montana/vs_conf.php) against teams from the PFL!!

[Go Green]

Too bad, I was looking forward to watching USD knock off SHSU in the first round.

So who gets the PFL bid if both Butler and Marist win out?

[bojeta]

Ummm...how is that athletic aid? It's the exact same aid everyone on campus is getting, right?

Not only that, but I'm willing to bet it's the exact sort of aid players at every Pioneer League school get. Total BS!! One of my former students is a DB for San Diego. This sucks!

[Bogus Megapardus]

My guess is that there's a lot of hand-wringing going on in a lot of Pioneer AD offices right about now.

[MTfan4life]

So who gets the PFL bid if both Butler and Marist win out?

The team with the best SRS rating. (http://www.pioneer-football.org/pfl/tiebreaker/)

"If the teams are still tied, the latest available ranking in the Simple Rating System ranking, approved for use by the NCAA Committee, shall be used as the final tiebreaker."

[Model Citizen]

Go Green is correct. We already knew the rating would determine the AQ. Difference is that USD was probably going to get the nod, based on strength of schedule. Now we'll have to wait and see who the computer likes.

[Go Green]

If this guy's system is anywhere near the NCAA"s SRS, then the PFL title will definitely come down to the wire.

http://www.footballperspective.com/non-fbs-college-football-ratings-through-11-weeks/

[Mr. C]

If you remember right, San Diego had a quarterback Sebastian Trujillo (and a preseason Payton Award candidate in 2009), who left the team during the season and said he was having issues in regards to having enough aid to continue his education at the school.

[clenz]

If you remember right, San Diego had a quarterback Sebastian Trujillo (and a preseason Payton Award candidate in 2009), who left the team during the season and said he was having issues in regards to having enough aid to continue his education at the school.

I don't get how that's possible... tuition is paid a semester at a time brute the semester starts....

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[MTfan4life]

Go Green is correct. We already knew the rating would determine the AQ. Difference is that USD was probably going to get the nod, based on strength of schedule. Now we'll have to wait and see who the computer likes.

Actually, San Diego had wins over both Marist and Butler, so they would not have needed to use the SRS.

[Model Citizen]

Yes, I forgot that Dayton has dropped out of the race.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If they knew about this for a long time and waited until now to tell them - and I really don't see how it's possible how they just discovered now that there's a problem - it is unbelievably cruel.

[T-Dog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3id-Fb8ooY

[Model Citizen]

If they knew about this for a long time...

I'm guessing someone in the athletic department knew...and kept it quiet.


I really don't see how it's possible how they just discovered now that there's a problem

"They" would be a different group of people at USD. I believe the concept is review of financial transactions after the fact, a.k.a. Post Audit.

[Mr. C]

Here is the College Sports Journal take on the San Diego fiasco. Isn't the first time that someone has had to write about some goofy sort of story about the Toreros.

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/775-embarrassing-decision-by-administrators-sweeps-san-diego-from-potential-playoff-spot

[JayJ79]

Kick the god damn pioneer out of the NCAA. Send them down to DIII at least. That is about as stupid as I've ever seen.

the PFL schools would gladly go back to having D3 football if they were able to (whilst maintaining DI in their other sports), but without an NCAA rule change, that's impossible. If the current option was taken away, I'm guessing most of these teams would drop football altogether rather than move all their other sports to D3

[Mr. C]

I don't get how that's possible... tuition is paid a semester at a time brute the semester starts....

Sent from my S4 using Tapatalk
There was a lot involved with that weird story on Sebastian Trujillo. Some of it I can't go into here and some of it that never was completely substantiated. One of the weirdest stories I've covered in 35 years of college football.

Some schools, remember (don't know if this applies to USD) are on the quarter system, too.

[Model Citizen]

(in article)...Toreros would have probably given the PFL its best shot at a potential upset in the first round of the playoffs.

Are the first round games typically regional matchups? If so, I would say that Marist--which lost at USD on a controversial penalty--would potentially get the easiest draw for a PFL squad. Patriot? NEC? yeah, definitely Marist would be the upset pick.

[Model Citizen]

the PFL schools would gladly go back to having D3 football if they were able to ...

No they wouldn't. Maybe in 1993...or 2003. But not today.

[DSUrocks07]

USD to the Big Sky!

[dgtw]

So a PFL player can't get any type of financial aid? No academic scholarship? No Pell Grant?

[Red & Black]

If a player is recruited to play a sport at a d1 school and receive any kind of financial aid it counts as an athletic scholarship grin what I understand.

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This doesn't make much sense to me. Pretty sure walk-ons can get the same financial aid any other student in similar circumstances can get. Otherwise, you'd effectively be denying poor kids the opportunity to attend college by virtue of them wanting to participate in inter-collegiate athletics...right?

Pretty sure the caviat is that athletes can't get aid that is not available to the general student population without it counting as a "scholarship" of some sort.


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[MTfan4life]

So a PFL player can't get any type of financial aid? No academic scholarship? No Pell Grant?

Here is an excerpt from an article about Dayton football a handful of years ago.

Most UD players, though, are receiving some financial help — just not in the form of athletic scholarships. Don Vince, the UD associate director of financial aid, said 95 of 110 players have earned academic scholarships this year ranging from $2,000 to $15,000. That number doesn’t include federal and state need-based grants independent of the university, for which many UD players qualify.

Article (http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/sports/college/ud-finds-not-giving-football-scholarships-to-be--1/nM48w/)

[ccd494]

So is San Diego the Fordham of the west or is Fordham the San Diego of the east?

[FormerPokeCenter]

nodak and I agree on something

That coupled with two apologies in as many weeks from the current President is a clear sign of the impending apocalypse...

[Fordham2012]

So is San Diego the Fordham of the west or is Fordham the San Diego of the east?

Neither

1. I do not see SD getting an at large bid.
2. Fordham did this deliberately. Not an oops.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So is San Diego the Fordham of the west or is Fordham the San Diego of the east?

I think you mean Wagner instead of Fordham.

[kdinva]

Athletic aid is not allowed in the Pioneer Football League.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/nov/14/usd-toreros-pfl/

any chance of these players pulling a "Grambling", and not dress or play this Saturday?

[ccd494]

I think you mean Wagner instead of Fordham.

The only difference I see between Fordham and USD is that Fordham will get an at large and USD won't. Both will win their leagues' regular season, but both won't get their autobids.

[SoupCity85]

Kick the god damn pioneer out of the NCAA. Send them down to DIII at least. That is about as stupid as I've ever seen.

Soooooo.....does this make them "cheaters" or "rule breakers????"

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

USD to the Big Sky!

I had that same sentiment for some time. They will exchange a league where their closest league member is in Iowa with a league having three members in their state. They really can't go wrong with this move.

[DSUrocks07]

I had that same sentiment for some time. They will exchange a league where their closest league member is in Iowa with a league having three members in their state. They really can't go wrong with this move.

There has to be a cost-benefit breaking point as far as being in the PFL goes.

Travel costs have to be astronomical.

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[Lehigh Football Nation]

I cannot get over the timing of this announcement, which raises many, many more questions than answers.

Does anyone else think it's odd that USD only announced this days before the Toreros were poised to get to the playoffs?

It could be ineptitude on a mammoth scale, but I don't think so.

I could see this is it involved a player, or a specific incident, or some more conventional violation that dealt with illegal boosterism, work-free jobs, or something like that.

But this doesn't involve the players at all. It is a financial aid thing - a financial aid thing that had to have been known about by the USD admissions staff for, at a bare minimum, months!

If they knew about it for months - and I cannot possibly see how they didn't - then this decision is motivated by something else other than the integrity of the PFL and the student-athletes. That is my inescapable conclusion - either that, or compliance ineptitude of epic proportions.

[Model Citizen]

Travel costs have to be astronomical. Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk

$200,000 tops. That's not even 10 scholarships at USD.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Kick the god damn pioneer out of the NCAA. Send them down to DIII at least. That is about as stupid as I've ever seen.

I know it really doesn't matter to anyone what us or App fans think, but the biggest turnoff to me is that the NCAA allows no scholly or limited scholly leagues in FCS. Then on top of that, they get autobids. To me, if you're not putting the full effort into your football team you shouldn't get to take away playoff spots from programs that do.

[citdog]

I know it really doesn't matter to anyone what us or App fans think


are y'all still here? only two more weeks to go

[cmaxwellgsu]

are y'all still here? only two more weeks to go

I'm gonna hang around til the bitter end.

[Fordham2012]

I know it really doesn't matter to anyone what us or App fans think, but the biggest turnoff to me is that the NCAA allows no scholly or limited scholly leagues in FCS. Then on top of that, they get autobids. To me, if you're not putting the full effort into your football team you shouldn't get to take away playoff spots from programs that do.

That's a tough one. I think to compare scholarship programs across public, private and wealthy private schools is difficult. The Ivy League schools have VERY generous need based financial aid. I can argue that anyone who can get accepted there whose family income is under $100,000, football player or not, is being offered a very strong incentive to go there. Scholarships are not the only measure of a school's commitment.

[Model Citizen]

Update to the PFL website today indicates that the GPI will be a major factor in the tiebreaker. I think that's a change from their earlier statement. They'll also use the SRS, if it's available. (?)

[Go Green]

I got a headache trying to follow all this. http://www.pioneer-football.org/media/pdf/PFL%20Tiebreaker%20Scenarios.pdf xblehx

If they are going to have an autobid in a 12-team league, they could probably eliminate a lot of the mess by playing more than 8 games against each other. Does Butler really need to be playing two D-III schools rather than another PFL team?

[T-Dog]

I how the ****ing Pioneer League can send out a release about their tie-breakers yet the SoCon won't even consider it. xsmhx

[UAalum72]

I know it really doesn't matter to anyone what us or App fans think, but the biggest turnoff to me is that the NCAA allows no scholly or limited scholly leagues in FCS. Then on top of that, they get autobids. To me, if you're not putting the full effort into your football team you shouldn't get to take away playoff spots from programs that do.No, No, by giving their league an autobid no playoff spots get taken away, an EXTRA at-large bid was created. You're supposed to be chanting "they water down the playoff field so the rest of us aren't as elite as we used to be".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I how the ****ing Pioneer League can send out a release about their tie-breakers yet the SoCon won't even consider it. xsmhx

What's so wacky about the SoCon tiebreakers? Most go to Furman.

[T-Dog]

What's so wacky about the SoCon tiebreakers? Most go to Furman.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m96qikFvMa1qlydob.jpg

The point is that the SoCon never has released tiebreaker scenarios. They just assume everyone will find their rule book on their website and everything makes sense. And it doesn't make much sense as last year showed.

[Model Citizen]

No, No, by giving their league an autobid no playoff spots get taken away, an EXTRA at-large bid was created. You're supposed to be chanting "they water down the playoff field so the rest of us aren't as elite as we used to be".

LOL Thanks for trying to keep us on topic.

[Sandlapper Spike]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m96qikFvMa1qlydob.jpg

The point is that the SoCon never has released tiebreaker scenarios. They just assume everyone will find their rule book on their website and everything makes sense. And it doesn't make much sense as last year showed.

And this has occasionally given the league a black eye over the years, notably in a league basketball tournament tiebreaker situation during the mid-1980s...let me see if I can dig that up.

Here we go:

Link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=b3ZJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VgsNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2495%2C8233771)

[FUBeAR]

I got a headache trying to follow all this. http://www.pioneer-football.org/media/pdf/PFL%20Tiebreaker%20Scenarios.pdf xblehx

If they are going to have an autobid in a 12-team league, they could probably eliminate a lot of the mess by playing more than 8 games against each other. Does Butler really need to be playing two D-III schools rather than another PFL team?

Did you make it down to the 4-way tiebreaker scenario?

In that scenario, the tied teams' records vs. each other would be:

Mercer 2-0 (will have beaten Marist & Drake)
Butler 1-0 (Beat Drake)
Marist 0-1 (will have lost to Mercer)
Drake 0-2 (lost to Butler and Mercer)

CLEARLY, Drake should win the tiebreaker among these teams & get the PFL AQ bid....right? That's the way the PFL has it figured....sez so, right there in black & white. Click the link in the quoted post above if you want to see for yourself. xcrazyx

[bojeta]

Did you make it down to the 4-way tiebreaker scenario?

In that scenario, the tied teams' records vs. each other would be:

Mercer 2-0 (will have beaten Marist & Drake)
Butler 1-0 (Beat Drake)
Marist 0-1 (will have lost to Mercer)
Drake 0-2 (lost to Butler and Mercer)

Clearly, Drake should get the bid....right? That's the way the PFL sees it....sez so, right there in black & white.

Uhhhhh..... mmmmmm.... Wait a minute! If we're talking "at large"......., and San Diego was the cream of the PL......, and Cal Poly beat San Diego 38-16........, Ya.... Drake should get an at large, and Cal Poly should sit home, even if they beat Eastern Washington tomorrow, finish 6-2 in the Big Sky, statistically whooped Montana, and NAU.... Makes perfect sense. Carry on...

[dgtw]

I agree a 12 team league either needs to play more than eight league games or else go to divisions and have a championship game the last week of the regular season.

[APaladindad]

What's so wacky about the SoCon tiebreakers? Most go to Furman.
That is much better than if they went to Citadel or Chattanooga!

[citdog]

That is much better than if they went to Citadel or Chattanooga!

furman sucks

[JayJ79]

I agree a 12 team league either needs to play more than eight league games or else go to divisions and have a championship game the last week of the regular season.

how many league games did the CAA have when it was a 12 team league?
how many league games does the Big Sky have with their 13 teams?
did either of those conferences have a championship game the last week of the regular season?

[bojeta]

how many league games did the CAA have when it was a 12 team league?
how many league games does the Big Sky have with their 13 teams?
did either of those conferences have a championship game the last week of the regular season?

I'm sure SloStang or someone else knows the facts on this, and will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe, when South Dakota was going to join as well, and we would have had 14 teams, the conference was planning on a championship scenario. When SD jumped ship, it through a wrench in the works. Maybe San Diego will jump in, and solve the problem while adding a 4th California team to the conference?

[JayJ79]

are "conference championship games" even allowed at the FCS level? (amongst teams headed to the playoffs, I know the SWAC does it, but those teams forego any playoff chances).

[Catbooster]

I don't think a conference championship game is allowed if you participate in the playoffs.

[dgtw]

Well, a championship game is much better than a convoluted tie breaker among teams that did not play each other.

At some point a league is just too big to exist without a better way to determine a champion than a "power rating" system.

[Dog Bone]

Did you make it down to the 4-way tiebreaker scenario?

In that scenario, the tied teams' records vs. each other would be:

Mercer 2-0 (will have beaten Marist & Drake)
Butler 1-0 (Beat Drake)
Marist 0-1 (will have lost to Mercer)
Drake 0-2 (lost to Butler and Mercer)

CLEARLY, Drake should win the tiebreaker among these teams & get the PFL AQ bid....right? That's the way the PFL has it figured....sez so, right there in black & white. Click the link in the quoted post above if you want to see for yourself. xcrazyx

There is not any scenario Drake could make it this year. They had a loss to Mercer and Butler. If Marist wins it should be Marist, if Mercer wins it will probably be Butler, due to the strength of schedule. I realize Mercer is a new program and had to get games where they could, but this strength of schedule will hurt them in the end. This is why NO TEAM in the FCS should play a lower rated school. The PFL teams have to step up and schedule tougher non conference games if we want any sort of validation for a playoff bid!

[UAalum72]

I don't think a conference championship game is allowed if you participate in the playoffs.I think you're right, but even if it is, it has to take place during the regular season time frame, which means either every team gives up its bye week, or has to play one less game, just to leave championship week open.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think you're right, but even if it is, it has to take place during the regular season time frame, which means either every team gives up its bye week, or has to play one less game, just to leave championship week open.

I'm a very big fan of this scenario, and I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more traction. It would guarantee a winner, and could also set up some fascinating wild-card games for playoff participation.

[dgtw]

I guess you could have divisional play and then the last week have #1 play #1, #2 play #2, etc.

[ccd494]

I guess you could have divisional play and then the last week have #1 play #1, #2 play #2, etc.


So someone could have a week to book travel from Morehead to San Diego or Campbell to Drake? Don't see that being feasible.

[Go Green]

I think you're right, but even if it is, it has to take place during the regular season time frame, which means either every team gives up its bye week, or has to play one less game, just to leave championship week open.

While that is indeed an issue, I find it hard to believe that the NCAA prohibits FCS teams from having championship games.

If a FCS conference wants to do it and can feasibly pull it off, why does the NCAA care either way?

[WataugaDave]

Is the issue that are paremeters that aid can be given? That more aid was given that what would have been given to a non-athlete with the same financial need?
I think it's a matter of why aid was given. Normal parameters for financial aid are academic achievement and financial background. USD admitted that they used athletics as a parameter, as in an athlete got more money than a student with the same grades and same family income level would have gotten.

However, I also don't see the point of playing D-I football under D-III scholarship rules.

[JayJ79]

While that is indeed an issue, I find it hard to believe that the NCAA prohibits FCS teams from having championship games.

If a FCS conference wants to do it and can feasibly pull it off, why does the NCAA care either way?

it's more a question of timing, since the playoffs start right after the regular season.

[Model Citizen]

Butler and Marist both won today. They are PFL co-champions.

USD losing to Drake after one half. Toreros have 2 yards rushing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/news/news.aspx?id=4710811


"The PFL enforcement committee, comprised of three league presidents and two athletics directors, met recently to adjudicate this case and voted unanimously to accept San Diego's self-imposed postseason ban without further penalty," PFL commissioner Patty Viverito said. "This decision was reached with the understanding that the leniency was due to mitigating factors - in essence, because of the swift, thorough and forthright manner in which San Diego managed the self-discovered rules violation in every way possible."Said San Diego athletic director Ky Snyder: "We are disappointed that this took place but are pleased this matter is resolved and we can now move forward."

Thus ends this weird chapter in PFL history.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I didn't know Patty V was also the commissioner of the PFL. Can she just go do that full time?

[Bogus Megapardus]

San Diego simply gave the same kind of aid that Patriot schools used to provide before our league voted to allow scholarships a couple of years ago. The school did the right thing by declaring itself ineligible - it's pretty much the same as Fordham remaining "voluntarily" ineligible for the Patriot title until this season. Nothing terribly "weird" about it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

San Diego simply gave the same kind of aid that Patriot schools used to provide before our league voted to allow scholarships a couple of years ago. The school did the right thing by declaring itself ineligible - it's pretty much the same as Fordham remaining "voluntarily" ineligible for the Patriot title until this season. Nothing terribly "weird" about it.

A week before potentially playing for a playoff bid? Fordham knew going into these seasons they were ineligible. San Diego played through 9/10ths of their schedule and had this sprung on them.

And as I said way earlier in this thread, I refuse to believe nobody knew about this until, amazingly, a week before they were going to win the title this gets "discovered".