Should the PL allow GTown to waive the AI in order for it to recruit/remain viable???

[Sader87]

I really can't think of another solution.

For the uninitated, the Georgetown administration has decided not to allow football merit scholarships in its recruiting process, unlike every other PL school. However, it still has to abide by the league's Academic Index (AI for short)....which in the short version (believe me, you don't want the long version) means that recruited football players at each PL school have to be basically similar to other prospective students at their respective schools in GPA/SATs etc. GTown's admission standards are the highest in the league and thus their AI is higher which makes recruiting even more difficult (i.e. a smaller pool of potential recruits to select from).

GTown football is in a very untenable situation (with respect to competitiveness anyway). The PL is only going to get stronger with each succeeding class (Fordham now has a full scholarship roster, the other schools will add their second scholarship class next year) and GTown will more and more become uncompetitive in PL and similar OOC (particularly CAA and Ivy) play.

If GTown was allowed to recruit without the strictures of the AI it may be somewhat more competitive.

Thoughts?

[UNH Fanboi]

Georgetown appears to have no plan for the future of their football program. It wouldn't surprise me if the program no longer exists in 5 years, but I am sure dfwhoya will have more informed commentary.

[citdog]

Georgetown should see if the pioneer league would take them. Or go Div III.

[RichH2]

.
No. Irrelevant issue as floor of AI below GU standards for non Bball admits. Up to GU ,if they want to extend Bball standards to football.

[Go Green]

If Columbia drops football, Georgetown would be a perfect replacement for the Ivy.

:)

[Fordham2012]

To say that Georgetown does not allow football scholarships is only part of the story, IMHO. Georgetown, like 2 other members of the PL, Holy Cross and Colgate purport to meet the financial need of any accepted applicant (although we all know, this can be somewhat subjective), unlike the others which do not "meet need." The AI (similar to the Ivy League AI) requires that athletes have SATs/HS GPA close to, but not at the average of the school's population (I think within 1 standard deviation on average, but maybe two for football, lacrosse and basketball). So, in essence, Georgetown has been offering athletes an incentive to enroll there (or at least those athletes who can demonstrate financial need). I am not certain where Gtown is headed, but they have been and continue to offer athletes incentives.

[Sader87]

If Columbia drops football, Georgetown would be a perfect replacement for the Ivy.

:)

I actually thought about starting a similar thread with this thought in mind.

The thing is though, the way GTown is running their football program, the Hoyas would be every bit as uncompetitive as Columbia is now in the Ivy League. I'm sure they (GTown) would accept the offer though!!!

[UNH Fanboi]

Georgetown should see if the pioneer league would take them. Or go Div III.

NCAA won't let you play D3 in football and D1 in other sports.

[PAllen]

No.

If the Georgetown administration had done half of what they've promised the league, their alumni, and their fans, then Georgetown would be a force in the PL. But they don't. They sit back and make an embarrassment of themselves. They have done nothing for the league except hold down the playoff AQ. The AQ is secure, and Georgetown's program is still in shambles. It's up to Georgetown to step up, not up to the league to stoop lower to help an associate member who scoffs at us in other sports look better. GU is the one school in this league that could easily compete with the Ivies if they chose to do so, but they don't. They have national name recognition and nationally known academic reputation that far surpasses anything else in the Patriot League. If they can't be bothered to put together even the appearance of running a D-I football program, then that's their problem.

Also, when it comes to the AI, Georgetown is the last school I would trust not to abuse an exemption. Have you seen their basketball program? Thanks, but no thanks, one of the things I've always liked about the PL is that all of the athletes could read and write their own name.

[DFW HOYA]

Putting aside the academic arguments for a moment, there is a school of thought that if Georgetown may eventually have to look beyond the Patriot League after 2015, perhaps as an independent, because of the twin pressures of scheduling and scholarships. At that point, the PL would stand at the minimum number of teams for an autobid, with no likely expansion candidates.

To the above post, Georgetown is a "need-blind, full need" school, so a lot of institutional funds support 100% demonstrated need, which adds up to no expansion in non-need scholarships.

FWIW, I find it amusing when people wave the red flag over men's basketball, despite the fact that Big East eligibility standards have nothing to do with the Patriot League argument. Notwithstanding, only two seniors since 1972 have completed their eligibility and failed to earn a degree.

[Sader87]

I'm not saying it was right or wrong, but isn't this essentially (i.e. lighten admissions standards) what the Ivy League did for UPenn, which had struggled in football for much of the 60's and 70's, in the early 1980's?

[jimbo65]

I really can't think of another solution.

For the uninitated, the Georgetown administration has decided not to allow football merit scholarships in its recruiting process, unlike every other PL school. However, it still has to abide by the league's Academic Index (AI for short)....which in the short version (believe me, you don't want the long version) means that recruited football players at each PL school have to be basically similar to other prospective students at their respective schools in GPA/SATs etc. GTown's admission standards are the highest in the league and thus their AI is higher which makes recruiting even more difficult (i.e. a smaller pool of potential recruits to select from).

GTown football is in a very untenable situation (with respect to competitiveness anyway). The PL is only going to get stronger with each succeeding class (Fordham now has a full scholarship roster, the other schools will add their second scholarship class next year) and GTown will more and more become uncompetitive in PL and similar OOC (particularly CAA and Ivy) play.

If GTown was allowed to recruit without the strictures of the AI it may be somewhat more competitive.

Thoughts?

First, your explanation of the AI is the clearest and most succinct I have seen.

IMO the answer to the ? is no. Gtown, could, if they wished, be competitive. they do not care. I have empathy for the players who are put in dire straits which will soon be more dire.

[Sader87]

]First, your explanation of the AI is the clearest and most succinct I have seen.
[/B]
IMO the answer to the ? is no. Gtown, could, if they wished, be competitive. they do not care. I have empathy for the players who are put in dire straits which will soon be more dire.


lol...appreciate it Jimbo....in my "defense" I have spent waaaaayyyy too much time discussing/explaining this topic for any lifetime.

[Sader87]

To clarify, I'm not saying GTown should/will become the next SMU circa 1984....just allow them to recruit somewhat better so they are at least not entering every PL game a 3 or 4 TD underdog.

[Go Green]

I'm not saying it was right or wrong, but isn't this essentially (i.e. lighten admissions standards) what the Ivy League did for UPenn, which had struggled in football for much of the 60's and 70's, in the early 1980's?

Actually, what happened was that the Ivy announced it was going to adopt the AI roughly in 1981 (give or take). They gave schools five years to get into compliance.

Dartmouth and Yale (and I'll bet Columbia) instituted their AI levels immeidately. All three saw their football teams get noticeably worse very quickly.

Penn, on the other hand.... waited until the last possible moment to start conforming to the AI.

Hope that puts the 1980s in perspective.

:)

[Go...gate]

No.

If the Georgetown administration had done half of what they've promised the league, their alumni, and their fans, then Georgetown would be a force in the PL. But they don't. They sit back and make an embarrassment of themselves. They have done nothing for the league except hold down the playoff AQ. The AQ is secure, and Georgetown's program is still in shambles. It's up to Georgetown to step up, not up to the league to stoop lower to help an associate member who scoffs at us in other sports look better. GU is the one school in this league that could easily compete with the Ivies if they chose to do so, but they don't. They have national name recognition and nationally known academic reputation that far surpasses anything else in the Patriot League. If they can't be bothered to put together even the appearance of running a D-I football program, then that's their problem.

Also, when it comes to the AI, Georgetown is the last school I would trust not to abuse an exemption. Have you seen their basketball program? Thanks, but no thanks, one of the things I've always liked about the PL is that all of the athletes could read and write their own name.

I think you are overstating this a bit. HC and the Core Four are pretty damned good schools and GU may surpass us, but not by much. I'm happy if GU remains, though I do wish they would do something to achieve further completeness for the MSF.

Lost in this as well is the problem discussed some years ago with Georgetown's financial situation. I believe they are responsible for funding, in whole or part, a major teaching and research hospital.

[Sader87]

Actually, what happened was that the Ivy announced it was going to adopt the AI roughly in 1981 (give or take). They gave schools five years to get into compliance.

Dartmouth and Yale (and I'll bet Columbia) instituted their AI levels immeidately. All three saw their football teams get noticeably worse very quickly.

Penn, on the other hand.... waited until the last possible moment to start conforming to the AI.

Hope that puts the 1980s in perspective.

:)

LOL....thanks, it's mostly a haze of drunken keg/beach parties with the English Beat, the Replacements and the Violent Femmes serving as the soundtrack here....oh, and Gordie almost winning the Heisman.

[ccd494]

I think you are overstating this a bit. HC and the Core Four are pretty damned good schools and GU may surpass us, but not by much. I'm happy if GU remains, though I do wish they would do something to achieve further completeness for the MSF.

The PL is full of great schools, but denying that Georgetown is the greatest is crazy talk. Georgetown is one of the 15-20 best national universities. The rest are not. Simple as that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1. This was essentially done before in the Ivy League for a brief time - quietly.

2. How could you justify Georgetown is a "special case" that warrants them alone waiving the AI? It seems difficult at best.

3. Why can't Georgetown do what Wagner has done and mix up grants and loans? Maybe they don't get to 63, but they can compete with, say, 30. That gets them enough impact players and - frankly - IMO wouldn't hurt their AI much.

[RichH2]

There are numerous options for GU to make the program competitive, they all cost money,whether need or merit, which GU cannot or will not do. Absent a commitment,tinkering with the AI,whether on a PL level or at GU,is akin to arranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship , way past useless.

[PAllen]

I think you are overstating this a bit. HC and the Core Four are pretty damned good schools and GU may surpass us, but not by much. I'm happy if GU remains, though I do wish they would do something to achieve further completeness for the MSF.

Lost in this as well is the problem discussed some years ago with Georgetown's financial situation. I believe they are responsible for funding, in whole or part, a major teaching and research hospital.


I'm not arguing the academic quality of the school. What I'm saying is that Georgetown's national reputation for academic excellence far surpasses the rest of the PL.

Let me put it this way, you ask somebody in California about Georgetown, and they'll say: "Great school with a pretty good basketball team." As opposed to: "Colgate? I usually just buy what's on sale, but I'm using Crest at the moment." and "Lee High? Yeah, my sister went there for 10th and 11th grade before my parents moved us out here."

[Sader87]

Georgetown can come off as somewhat "uppity" with a good dose of "Ivy-envy" at times but I think their membership is good for the PL in toto. They also have strong institutional/historical ties to both HC and Fordham.

Little known factoid, the first 20 or so graduating classes of Holy Cross from 1843-1865 were awarded Georgetown degrees:

http://www.library.georgetown.edu/infrequently-asked-questions/why-were-holy-cross-students-receiving-degrees-georgetown-middle-19th-c

[Neighbor2]

Georgetown football is in a really tough spot. Its basketball program has given the school more big-time, athletic publicity than the school and community has ever needed. Although this with seemingly little regard for firm academic standard to participate. It also has what can only be seen, publicly, as a junior high school stadium or band camp facility. Tough to rally around the prospect of using football to further the school's image with a play field like that. Geez, I wouldn't be surprised if most on that kind of campus detest the local PRO football team because its traditional name no longer represents the political mindset.

Georgetown is pretty much an FCS football program without a welcoming and supportive home base. Still, Georgetown is wonderful fit for the Patriot League in most sports. I'd hate to ever lose them as a Patriot League member. Unfortunately, the institution seems content to have them remain a football doormat, with occasional chance success. Have to admire the loyalty and determination of Georgetown football team members. It's all kinda unfair, isn't it?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I just want to know how Georgetown and "Metropolitan College" can co-exist under the same set of academic standards. It seems terribly hypocritical.

[ace93]

As I was walking to the stadium at Georgetown for the Fordham game this season there were a few prospective student tours going on. My path converged with one of the tours that was going on and I heard the tour guide say something along the lines of "This is our football stadium. All of our sports at Georgetown are Division I except for football." I do not know if that was qualified afterwards b/c some speaker noise made it hard to hear the rest, but I do not think it was. That spoke volumes to me.

[Go...gate]

The PL is full of great schools, but denying that Georgetown is the greatest is crazy talk. Georgetown is one of the 15-20 best national universities. The rest are not. Simple as that.

I did not deny that GU was the best school, I merely stated that GU was not that far ahead of HC and the Core Four.

[Go...gate]

I just want to know how Georgetown and "Metropolitan College" can co-exist under the same set of academic standards. It seems terribly hypocritical.

What do you mean, Bogus?

[Bogus Megapardus]

What do you mean, Bogus?

"Metropolitan College" is Boston University's "community extension" program. It is completely open enrollment; no grades, no SATs and no application is required. Many of Boston U.'s basketball players are admitted through this "Metropolitan College" thing. That's how they get away with it. At "Met U" one can major in "Gastronomy," "Tourism Management" and "Health Communication" (and you though Lehigh was bad). I haven't the slightest idea how Center Valley is going about assessing the Academic Index for these students. But if the AI truly is based on the member's standards, and not a league-wide standard (as is used to be), then in Boston University's case zero times zero equals nothing at all.

Contrast with Georgetown which must look at its own average of about 1500 M/V SAT when admitting football players. Two schools in the same league (albeit not in the same sports) with enormously divergent standards being applied.

Somebody, somewhere obviously thought that inviting Boston University to the PL was a good idea at the time. But would you rather have Boston University/Metropolitan College basketball (and whatever else it is that they play) or would you rather have Georgetown football. I'd take the latter - FiOS or no FiOS.

I think this is going to become a real problem for the league and I wouldn't blame Georgetown for telling the league to shove it. And just wait 'till you see some of the knuckle-dragging dunderheads Boston U. is going to put out on the basketball floor.

[Bogus Megapardus]

All of our sports at Georgetown are Division I except for football."

That comports with the President's statement last year that Georgetown football plays "at a level below FCS." The guide merely was parroting John De Gioia's prepared talking points. xrulesx

[Go...gate]

"Metropolitan College" is Boston University's "community extension" program. It is completely open enrollment; no grades, no SATs and no application is required. Many of Boston U.'s basketball players are admitted through this "Metropolitan College" thing. That's how they get away with it. At "Met U" one can major in "Gastronomy," "Tourism Management" and "Health Communication" (and you though Lehigh was bad). I haven't the slightest idea how Center Valley is going about assessing the Academic Index for these students. But if the AI truly is based on the member's standards, and not a league-wide standard (as is used to be), then in Boston University's case zero times zero equals nothing at all.

Contrast with Georgetown which must look at its own average of about 1500 M/V SAT when admitting football players. Two schools in the same league (albeit not in the same sports) with enormously divergent standards being applied.

Somebody, somewhere obviously thought that inviting Boston University to the PL was a good idea at the time. But would you rather have Boston University/Metropolitan College basketball (and whatever else it is that they play) or would you rather have Georgetown football. I'd take the latter - FiOS or no FiOS.

I think this is going to become a real problem for the league and I wouldn't blame Georgetown for telling the league to shove it. And just wait 'till you see some of the knuckle-dragging dunderheads Boston U. is going to put out on the basketball floor.

Metropolitan College sounds like Rutgers' experiment with Livingston College, which was finally abandoned.

[Bogus Megapardus]

the first 20 or so graduating classes of Holy Cross from 1843-1865 were awarded Georgetown degrees




Fear not - I know a guy who does fake IDs and driver's licenses who can take care of that pretty cheap. Just move a couple letters around . . . .

[Sader87]

One of the biggest problems with Georgetown is that you would have to be a GTown alum well into your 80's to remember when football was a big part of campus life. Fordham is somewhat in this same boat but their recent success has rectified this a bit.

If you went to Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette or Lehigh in the last 40 or so years you know that football was an integral part (not to all granted, but to many) of your four years at alma mater. Home games, road trips, family weekend etc. This was only exacerbated once you graduated....for many, the only time you returned to alma mater was for a football game at Homecoming. Georgetown (and Fordham) really didn't have that throughout the 1960's, 1970's, 1980s and 1990s. It's very hard to develop a "football culture" when you yourself weren't a part of that when you were at school.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One of the biggest problems with Georgetown is that you would have to be a GTown alum well into your 80's to remember when football was a big part of campus life. Fordham is somewhat in this same boat but their recent success has rectified this a bit.

If you went to Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette or Lehigh in the last 40 or so years you know that football was an integral part (not to all granted, but to many) of your four years at alma mater. Home games, road trips, family weekend etc. This was only exacerbated once you graduated....for many, the only time you returned to alma mater was for a football game at Homecoming. Georgetown (and Fordham) really didn't have that throughout the 1960's, 1970's, 1980s and 1990s. It's very hard to develop a "football culture" when you yourself weren't a part of that when you were at school.

Lehigh has Lafayette and Lafayette has Lehigh, though, which plays an outsized role in this. When Holy Cross had BC and Georgetown had Maryland, that helped, too, but those days are done.

[Pard4Life]

Lehigh has Lafayette and Lafayette has Lehigh, though, which plays an outsized role in this. When Holy Cross had BC and Georgetown had Maryland, that helped, too, but those days are done.

In a way, Lafayette's Division I affiliation was likely saved by Lehigh's presence.

[Doc QB]

I wish they could find the support, money, stadium, etc. it would really help the PL to have them take and enjoy the success we all think they could with such support. Sleeping giant that will likely never wake up, though...G'towns program, much like my vascular patients, has one foot in the grave, another on a bannana peel.

[Pard4Life]

All of you are sounding like Frank Tavani after a love-in loss.

Georgetown stinks. I am happy they stink. It gives us a league win and a game. And occasional DFW pride when the Pards lose. Still waiting for Hoyas to beat Lehigh.

[Gate83]

The PL is full of great schools, but denying that Georgetown is the greatest is crazy talk. Georgetown is one of the 15-20 best national universities. The rest are not. Simple as that.

I'd deny the idea that Gtown is a member of the Patriot League. They use us as a dumping ground for a sport they ignore, don't participate in any other sport (unless you count women's rowing). Let them take their beatings if that's what they want, I like thumping the Hoyas each year in a sport they care about as much as we care about field hockey.

[Pard4Life]

I'd deny the idea that Gtown is a member of the Patriot League. They use us as a dumping ground for a sport they ignore, don't participate in any other sport (unless you count women's rowing). Let them take their beatings if that's what they want, I like thumping the Hoyas each year in a sport they care about as much as we care about field hockey.

Yeah, pretty much... and they are arrogant enough to deny Lafayette television rights to the game in deference to FIOS, which had exclusive rights to the game and I believe their broadcast was simply an early morning or late afternoon tape delay showing of the game, which also came to be known around here as the 'FIOS Game.'

[Sader87]

Lehigh has Lafayette and Lafayette has Lehigh, though, which plays an outsized role in this. When Holy Cross had BC and Georgetown had Maryland, that helped, too, but those days are done.

I kind of disagree with this. Not that HC's days of playing BC (annually anyway) are done...they are, just that football itself (and all its ancillary social aspects) are much more strongly ingrained in most of the PL schools not named Georgetown.

If you graduated GTown in 1965, 1975, 1985 or 1995 and are a 70, 60, 50 or 40 year old alumnus or alumna, you never experienced D1 football as an undergrad. Why should they care now when they didn't then because it didn't exist?

Point being, one of the bigger obstacles at GTown is not only the current administation's intransgience but an alumni base that really couldn't care less about football at Georgetown.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you graduated GTown in 1965, 1975, 1985 or 1995 and are a 70, 60, 50 or 40 year old alumnus or alumna, you never experienced D1 football as an undergrad. Why should they care now when they didn't then because it didn't exist?

Point being, one of the bigger obstacles at GTown is not only the current administation's intransgience but an alumni base that really couldn't care less about football at Georgetown.

You could say this about any number of programs, though. Wagner alumni of the 70s never experienced D-I football either, although Walt Hameline did guide the Seahawks to the D-III NC. Does Wagner have a student or alumni base that has a culture of football viewership? Does Albany? Does Georgia State?

In fact, Georgetown has a early 20th century football history that rivals, and arguably surpasses, Fordham's. And through your same argument, Fordham theoretically has the same problem - students and alumni that don't remember football as a campus rallying point. Yet when I saw Lehigh play Fordham this year, it was a sellout.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'd deny the idea that Gtown is a member of the Patriot League. They use us as a dumping ground for a sport they ignore, don't participate in any other sport (unless you count women's rowing). Let them take their beatings if that's what they want, I like thumping the Hoyas each year in a sport they care about as much as we care about field hockey.


How can you say this? The respect that Georgetown pays its Patriot League opponents and its attention to detail second to none. xnodx






http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8343/g16d.png



http://www.guhoyas.com/sports/w-rowing/sched/gu-w-rowing-sched.html

[Sader87]

You're kind of making my point though. Most of those schools you mentioned (Wagner, Georgia St etc) really don't have a strong football culture even today. Fordham does to a degree but again, Coffey crowds even when sold out are only about 7,000.

Georgetown, unlike U-Albany and Fordham, also has an administration that doesn't care about football on top of really no football history over the last 50 years.

[RichH2]

The burial of Hoya football may be a bit premature,sadly the wake is not and will continue until the body is either revived or buried.

[Go Green]

Georgetown, unlike U-Albany and Fordham, also has an administration that doesn't care about football on top of really no football history over the last 50 years.

They should get innovative the way their women's hoops team plays defense.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/georgetown-women-player-attempts-block-shot-throwing-shoe-153453024--ncaab.html

[Doc QB]

You're kind of making my point though. Most of those schools you mentioned (Wagner, Georgia St etc) really don't have a strong football culture even today. Fordham does to a degree but again, Coffey crowds even when sold out are only about 7,000.

Georgetown, unlike U-Albany and Fordham, also has an administration that doesn't care about football on top of really no football history over the last 50 years.

Part of it is the overall, historic culture of a school, some of it is that today's students just dont care while undergrads. And they won't once they graduate and move on. We talked of this before.

Bucknell is classic example for both. I work with three surgeons who went to Bucknell, two bone docs, one urologist (que the penis jokes here). When BU smoked us two weeks back, they asked me in our locker room how bad Lehigh beat up on them. They were shocked at the actual score. All three are athletic guys, as are most of the people I have ever met from Bucknell. The urologist said he maybe went to one game in four years. ONE! I have another good friend who actually played frosh year there, quit, and to this day only knows about how Bucknell hoops are doing. And he actually bled and sweat one season with the Bison. That kind of apathy had to be likely something he just grew into while in Lewisburg.

Its obviously hard to find money, funds, interest, support, etc. Some schools committ to it, across the board, others dont. But the culture thing just seems so well ingrained with little hope of changing at some places.

[hebmskebm]

So what do you think happens to Georgetown football in the next few years? Do they:

A. Continue in the PL like they do now w/o scholarships and watch the disparity between them and the rest of league grow ever larger
B. Step up and begin offering scholarships
C. Go Indy/PFL
D. Drop the sport altogether

[Sader87]

If I had to guess??? I'd go with C. They can play a couple Ivies, maybe a couple PL...play the rest either as a part of the PFL officially or unofficially.

DFW basically hinted as such at the start of this thread.

[Bogus Megapardus]

maybe a couple PL


Do you think HC would continue to schedule Georgetown if Georgetown quit the Patriot League (and the AI burden)? Assuming the PL adds another school to replace Georgetown, who would HC drop from its current rotation so it could travel down to Multi-Sport Field to play the Hoyas? Harvard? Brown? Dartmouth? UNH? Bryant or CConn (both short local trips)?

[HoyaMetanoia]

No.
Also, when it comes to the AI, Georgetown is the last school I would trust not to abuse an exemption. Have you seen their basketball program? Thanks, but no thanks, one of the things I've always liked about the PL is that all of the athletes could read and write their own name.

Good racial jab there.

[Sader87]

Do you think HC would continue to schedule Georgetown if Georgetown quit the Patriot League (and the AI burden)? Assuming the PL adds another school to replace Georgetown, who would HC drop from its current rotation so it could travel down to Multi-Sport Field to play the Hoyas? Harvard? Brown? Dartmouth? UNH? Bryant or CConn (both short local trips)?

It's a good question. It wouldn't make too much sense but than again, I don't think anyone's joining the PL in football anytime soon (save for maybe, maybe Villanova) if GTown goes Indy or PFL. Plus there are the institutional ties.

[Go Green]

who would HC drop from its current rotation so it could travel down to Multi-Sport Field to play the Hoyas? Harvard?

Holy Cross seems pretty convinced that Harvard is ending their football series.

I haven't seen anything official coming out of Harvard or the Ivy offices on this topic. But if its true that Harvard is abandoning HC, then Georgetown may be a pretty obvious OOC replacement if the Hoyas leave the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Georgetown will be in the PL for the forseeable future. The NEC and PFL don't make enough sense for them.

If the Ivy League leadership were at all innovative, I could see Georgetown joining the Ivy League as an associate member, and Penn joining the Patriot League as a football-only associate member. But I don't think that type of creative thinking happens very often with the IL presidents.

A Penn/Georgetown swap, you could argue, could be of great benefit to both schools. For Penn, they'd get playoff access, and a revival of national legitimacy. For Georgetown, they would get more access to Ivy League games, stability, and even more chances to hobnob with like-minded institutions. For the League, you'd suddenly have a league that rivals the CAA top to bottom, and might even allow them to pry Villanova loose. Imagine Villanova/Penn as a season-ending rivalry game.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Holy Cross seems pretty convinced that Harvard is ending their football series.

I haven't seen anything official coming out of Harvard or the Ivy offices on this topic. But if its true that Harvard is abandoning HC, then Georgetown may be a pretty obvious OOC replacement if the Hoyas leave the PL.

Would this really benefit Harvard? How does an exchange of Georgetown for Holy Cross benefit Harvard football? Wouldn't Harvard add more legitimacy to its program by playing Richmond, Villanova or W&M instead?

[Fordham2012]

Go Green. No way, no how is Penn leaving the Ivy League. The non-football prestige is way too valuable. Now will they or various others allow new entrants.

BC had said that starting with 2017, one victory per year over a PL member will count toward bowl eligibility (I don't know if true), and then would look toward adding one game with HC or Fordham.

[Franks Tanks]

Georgetown will be in the PL for the forseeable future. The NEC and PFL don't make enough sense for them.

If the Ivy League leadership were at all innovative, I could see Georgetown joining the Ivy League as an associate member, and Penn joining the Patriot League as a football-only associate member. But I don't think that type of creative thinking happens very often with the IL presidents.

A Penn/Georgetown swap, you could argue, could be of great benefit to both schools. For Penn, they'd get playoff access, and a revival of national legitimacy. For Georgetown, they would get more access to Ivy League games, stability, and even more chances to hobnob with like-minded institutions. For the League, you'd suddenly have a league that rivals the CAA top to bottom, and might even allow them to pry Villanova loose. Imagine Villanova/Penn as a season-ending rivalry game.

Put down the Yuengling Chuck.

Penn gave up playing Michigan to join the Ivy League. They aren't going to leave Ivy League football to join the Patriot League.

[Go Green]

Would this really benefit Harvard? How does an exchange of Georgetown for Holy Cross benefit Harvard football? Wouldn't Harvard add more legitimacy to its program by playing Richmond, Villanova or W&M instead?

Hey, I agree. But Harvard's brass seems more interested in going 10-0 rather than challenging itself.

Some Ivy guys (me included) have been goading Harvard (to no avail) to step it up with the nonconference opponents for years. I'd love to see how Harvard--as one of the Ivy powers for the past decade and a half--would do against tough CAA teams and/or low-level FBS teams. But for whatever reason, Harvard won't do it.

(Penn, on the other hand, has at least tried to schedule up. But even Penn may be losing its appetite in that regard. They've refused to renew any games beyond 2014. Everyone is waiting with baited breath to see what Penn comes out with after then).

[Fordham2012]

Go Green. No way, no how is Penn leaving the Ivy League. The non-football prestige is way too valuable. Now will they or various others allow new entrants.

BC had said that starting with 2017, one victory per year over a PL member will count toward bowl eligibility (I don't know if true), and then would look toward adding one game with HC or Fordham.


Meant to say NOR will they allow new entrants.

[Go Green]

Go Green. No way, no how is Penn leaving the Ivy League. The non-football prestige is way too valuable. Now will they or various others allow new entrants.

Agreed. And it was LFN that proposed the trade (which, in his defense, does make great football sense).

But, as you say, the cost of leaving the Ivy would be too great for Penn. They ain't going anywhere.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You guys are missing the fact that this would be football-only. They'd still be "Ancient Eight" in everything else. Just not football - which the Ivy League leadership does not appear to care about much anyway.

[Fordham2012]

My apologies, Go Green.

LFN, UPenn is NOT going to do anything to dilute the brand. I don't care what they Ivy League would allow, they are not going to do it. Football just isn't that important to them.

[Twentysix]

You guys are missing the fact that this would be football-only. They'd still be "Ancient Eight" in everything else. Just not football - which the Ivy League leadership does not appear to care about much anyway.

NDSU to the Ivy league! :p

[Bogus Megapardus]

NDSU to the Ivy league! :p

I was all aboard the Georgia-State-to-the-Ivy-League bandwagon last year after their fans declared that Georgia State was "better than Harvard." I still can't understand what possibly could have gone wrong with that.

Maybe they just had even higher aspirations.

[Pard4Life]

NDSU to the Ivy league! :p

No playoffs for you! xnonox

[Pard4Life]

I was all aboard the Georgia-State-to-the-Ivy-League bandwagon last year after their fans declared that Georgia State was "better than Harvard." I still can't understand what possibly could have gone wrong with that.

Maybe they just had even higher aspirations.

Georgia State is on par with Columbia with regard to competitiveness. All schools have their merits, but I look down upon Georgia State simply because their football program and history is a joke.

[Franks Tanks]

My apologies, Go Green.

LFN, UPenn is NOT going to do anything to dilute the brand. I don't care what they Ivy League would allow, they are not going to do it. Football just isn't that important to them.


LFN has a point in the sense that Penn wouldn't damage their brand if they played football in another conference. Penn would still be an Ivy League school even if they played football elsewhere. My point is that Penn wouldn't go through the trouble of leaving the Ivy League football conference just to play in the FCS playoffs. They would still have to deal with the AI and lack of redshirts in the Patriot League, which would restrict their ability to compete. Also if Penn threatened to leave AND their only beef was playoff access, the Ivy presidents may finally submit and allow football postseason access.

If Penn were to upset the apple cart and leave the Ivy league in football, it would be for something bigger than the PL and the FCS playoffs. Like I said before they stopped playing teams like Michigan to join the Ivy in the first place. They would need the lure of a schedule like that once again to be tempted to leave in football.

[Fordham2012]

LFN has a point in the sense that Penn wouldn't damage their brand if they played football in another conference. Penn would still be an Ivy League school even if they played football elsewhere. My point is that Penn wouldn't go through the trouble of leaving the Ivy League football conference just to play in the FCS playoffs. They would still have to deal with the AI and lack of redshirts in the Patriot League, which would restrict their ability to compete. Also if Penn threatened to leave AND their only beef was playoff access, the Ivy presidents may finally submit and allow football postseason access.

If Penn were to upset the apple cart and leave the Ivy league in football, it would be for something bigger than the PL and the FCS playoffs. Like I said before they stopped playing teams like Michigan to join the Ivy in the first place. They would need the lure of a schedule like that once again to be tempted to leave in football.

I respectfully disagree. Successful branding means that one does NOT tinker with the brand for something not important. Penn does not want an asterisk next to Ivy League in any place. Penn's academic repuation is 100x more important to them than ANY sport. They don't care about the FCS playoffs. Their alumni do not care. Yes, many alumni enjoyed going to games. Very few living ones remember anything other than the Ivy League record the years they were there.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Successful branding means that one does NOT tinker with the brand for something not important.

Which is why Fordham should be in the Patriot League for all sports . . . and Boston U. should not.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Go Green. No way, no how is Penn leaving the Ivy League. The non-football prestige is way too valuable. Now will they or various others allow new entrants.

BC had said that starting with 2017, one victory per year over a PL member will count toward bowl eligibility (I don't know if true), and then would look toward adding one game with HC or Fordham.

I definitely agree. I know that us and App have discussed upgrading our football programs as improving the front porch of the university. Being in the Ivy League is the only front porch needed for their school. They're the one conference where the prestige will always outshine results.

[Sader87]

Which is why Fordham should be in the Patriot League for all sports . . . and Boston U. should not.

I agree but FU isn't leaving the A-10 for hoop (much like GU in the Big East) anytime soon.

BU is a weird one. It's actually a very good university overall but it just doesn't seem like a PL school....neither do Fordham, Georgetown and American either though. Not slights on these schools, just that they are more "urban research universities" i.e. not the types of schools that were envisioned when the league formed.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I agree but FU isn't leaving the A-10 for hoop (much like GU in the Big East) anytime soon.

BU is a weird one. It's actually a very good university overall but it just doesn't seem like a PL school....neither do Fordham, Georgetown and American either though. Not slights on these schools, just that they are more "urban research universities" i.e. not the types of schools that were envisioned when the league formed.

To me, Fordham and Georgetown seem like Patriot League schools. American and Boston U. definitely are PLINO.







http://imageshack.us/a/img20/3558/hcpk.png

[Sader87]

BU has very good graduate schools, both the law and med schools are very well regarded.

I know what you mean though, it's very different than the other PL schools at the undergraduate level. It's about 65% female (nothing wrong with that per se xnodx), much more like NYU than Fordham and their premiere sport is ice hockey. They really don't add much to the league overall in basketball (no following) and obviously dropped football.

[DFW HOYA]

Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion.

While the AI is a point of discussion (and I have discussed plenty on the subject over the years), there remain larger issues on Hoya football which are not easily solved by league policy, and I think both sides know this.

An earlier post noted Georgetown did not have the Saturday football "tradition" that Lehigh, Lafayette, etc. enjoy. True, but only to a point. There has always been a history on campus but Georgetown was never a place where alumni drove in on a Saturday morning, chiefly because only a fraction of alumni live within driving distance, and secondarily because here is no parking from which to encourage that tailgate culture.

Much like Fordham, Georgetown's better days were decidely off-campus and when the sport was dropped and returned back to a campus setting with nondescript opponents (particularly in the club and Div. III days), public interest never came back. However good Fordham is right now, it's not going to be the talk of the town as it used to be.

Financially, and I don't think this gets enough coverage, Georgetown has commitments to fund certain sports at certain levels in the Big East that impacts what they realistically spend on football. For example, Fordham doesn't have to field a scholarship soccer team to be in the A-10, but Georgetown does. Many...Ok, most Georgeown teams aren't at the scholarship levels of other schools (most visibly in baseball, where the Hoyas have not had a winning season since 1986) but it's what the Big East demands. This obviously does not affect PL schools and the funds they can allot to football do not come with strings attached.

But what is really at play? It's a combination of, in no particular order:

Admissions/AI: See the various posts above.

Annual support/alumni: Could be better, but a lot vote with their wallets.

Annual support/institutional: Football is the second largest sport budget at Georgetown but for every dollar spend on football, $5 goes to basketball. While I would contend (against prevailing wisdom) that Georgetown probably overspends on basketball, at least basketball provides a return on investment. If georgetown spent $4 million on football and topped out at 7-4 every year, what does it get in terms of additional gameday revenue? Admittedly, not much, since it would never host a playoff game and there are no real revenue gains until a team is far along in the playoff structure.

Coaching: Puit aside the pros and cons of the head coach, what does it take to recruit and retain good coaches in a low visibility program in an area with a high cost of living? With one or two exceptions, Kelly's assistants regularly rotate out in 1-2 yrs. to get better offers. Some even go into high school coaching because there's more money there.

Facilities: Gameday facilities are, frankly, a mess and extremely fan-unfriendly. Practice facilities are nonexistent and training options are limited to what the 28 other teams have which isn't much.

Recruiting: Constrained by no scholarships, AI and a 16% admission rate, where is the impact recruit who wants to play for Kelly, et al., and can they even get in?

Scheduling: As the saying goes, "Sunken logs are not stepping stones." Alumni and students that grew up on Syracuse and Villanova every March aren't worked up over Davidson and Marist in September, they just aren't. Even Ivy schools carry at best a fleeting interest because no Ivy school is within three hours of the campus.

Visibility: No regular coverage in print--the Washington Post gives Georgetown and Howard one story a year and they rely on AP writeups of the games despite being only two miles away. Also, no local TV or radio coverage to draw interest among local kids. Only 3% of GU students come from the local area.

Vision: The program is still on Bob Benson's business plan when it joined the MAAC--plus a few buyouts, but not much else.

The good news is that all these issues, all of them, are correctable. The bad news is time. How many 1-10 beatdowns are players, coaches, and alumni willing to endure in the PL until these issues get remediated in whole or in part? As seen on the "temporary" solution on the MSF (that will reach an absurd 3,000 days next month since contstruction was suspended,) time moves slowly at Georgetown.

PS: Slow timelines are not unique to Georgetown football. It's been six years since there was public declarations to get the basketball team a practice facility of its own and not to share time with volletyball, baseball, and whoever else needs to use the aging McDonough Gymnasium floor at a given time. (No other Top 25 basketball team fights through this and Georgetown loses top recruits every year in part because of the poor facilities.) Six years later? Money raised, timelines made, still no shovels in the ground.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wanted to mention one other thing in regards to my Penn/Georgetown swap idea.


Scheduling: As the saying goes, "Sunken logs are not stepping stones." Alumni and students that grew up on Syracuse and Villanova every March aren't worked up over Davidson and Marist in September, they just aren't. Even Ivy schools carry at best a fleeting interest because no Ivy school is within three hours of the campus.

Fans and well-connected alumni might not get animated with games against Davidson, but I could envision Georgetown stepping into Penn's spot in the Ivy League real easily, though, playing yearly games against Princeton, Harvard, and Yale, and ending the season vs. Cornell. People forget that there is a lot more cachet to these games than people realize, and it would thrill Georgetown to be rubbing elbows with these folks, IMO, even more than consorting with Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham, Holy Cross, Colgate and Bucknell.

[Fordham2012]

Wanted to mention one other thing in regards to my Penn/Georgetown swap idea.



Fans and well-connected alumni might not get animated with games against Davidson, but I could envision Georgetown stepping into Penn's spot in the Ivy League real easily, though, playing yearly games against Princeton, Harvard, and Yale, and ending the season vs. Cornell. People forget that there is a lot more cachet to these games than people realize, and it would thrill Georgetown to be rubbing elbows with these folks, IMO, even more than consorting with Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham, Holy Cross, Colgate and Bucknell.

NO ONE is saying Gtown wouldn't be thrilled with this. What people are saying is Ivy League is NOT letting them in. You can come up with all the bizarre reasons it might benefit them, but no one is buying.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NO ONE is saying Gtown wouldn't be thrilled with this. What people are saying is Ivy League is NOT letting them in. You can come up with all the bizarre reasons it might benefit them, but no one is buying.

The problem is the IL leadership treats football like a wart on its ass, and for some reason nobody is willing to do what Fordham did to force the leadership to make decisions that would benefit its football teams.

[Fordham2012]

Disagree. Ivy League means a lot more than Patriot League. No kids or parents go into their guidance counselor and say, I want to go to Patriot League school. Ivy League is a brand that has meaning. You can not compare with Patriot League. One has meaning in the academic world, one doesn't. And before you say, well you could do X,Y and Z, they don't want to change. They are happy with what they have.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Financially, and I don't think this gets enough coverage, Georgetown has commitments to fund certain sports at certain levels in the Big East that impacts what they realistically spend on football. For example, Fordham doesn't have to field a scholarship soccer team to be in the A-10, but Georgetown does. Many...Ok, most Georgetown teams aren't at the scholarship levels of other schools (most visibly in baseball, where the Hoyas have not had a winning season since 1986) but it's what the Big East demands. This obviously does not affect PL schools and the funds they can allot to football do not come with strings attached.



There's a way that Georgetown could bring all of its sports in line with Patriot League spending levels, you know . . . xcoolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

No kids or parents go into their guidance counselor and say, I want to go to Patriot League school.

You'd be surprised, I think, at the number of guidance counselors and sports coaches who actually do hear this from parents and students. Certainly nowhere near Ivy, of course, but the level of "brand recognition" has increased dramatically in recent years. Addition of Boston U. didn't help, though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Disagree. Ivy League means a lot more than Patriot League. No kids or parents go into their guidance counselor and say, I want to go to Patriot League school. Ivy League is a brand that has meaning. You can not compare with Patriot League. One has meaning in the academic world, one doesn't. And before you say, well you could do X,Y and Z, they don't want to change. They are happy with what they have.

So you think fewer kids would want to go to Penn if their football team only went and played in the Patriot League. Mmmkay. xeyebrowx

"Wait, Muffy, don't sign that application just yet! I just recently understood that the Quakers now throw their toast in the - horrors! - Patriot League! Rip up that application! We can't let the neighbors know you're going to a... Patriot League school in football."

[Franks Tanks]

Disagree. Ivy League means a lot more than Patriot League. No kids or parents go into their guidance counselor and say, I want to go to Patriot League school. Ivy League is a brand that has meaning. You can not compare with Patriot League. One has meaning in the academic world, one doesn't. And before you say, well you could do X,Y and Z, they don't want to change. They are happy with what they have.

People use the term "Patriot League school" all the time. I had a conversation with a co-worker the other day and he said his daughter was looking at Patriot League school, and she is not an athlete. I understand it is not used when discussing Fordham, since the Rams are of course just an associate member.

[Fordham2012]

I think Penn will not do anything to minimize its affiliation with the Ivy League.

[Fordham2012]

People use the term "Patriot League school" all the time. I had a conversation with a co-worker the other day and he said his daughter was looking at Patriot League school, and she is not an athlete. I understand it is not used when discussing Fordham, since the Rams are of course just an associate member.

I really doubt this happens often.

[Franks Tanks]

There's a way that Georgetown could bring all of its sports in line with Patriot League spending levels, you know . . . xcoolx

Moving forward how high will the new Big East spending levels really be, and how good will the Big East be in sports other than basketball? The New Big East is a collection of private schools with by and large medicore sports programs, who care a great deal about basketball.

Georgetown and Villanova will proably have the strongest overal sports programs in the new Big East.

Do St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul, Xavier, Marquette etc. reallyt have large athletic budgets? Are they good, or do they even care, about anything but basketball. Many of these schools don't even have baseball or track or Lax. I suppose men's soccer will be the 2nd biggest draw in the new Big East.

[Franks Tanks]

I really doubt this happens often.

It does when referring to schools in the PL. Do not be such a know it all. It is possible that you are wrong!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I really doubt this happens often.

I would wager that kids/parents/counselors mention "Patriot League school" at least as often as "A10 school."

[RichH2]

I would wager that kids/parents/counselors mention "Patriot League school" at least as often as "A10 school."
Patriot League has become a brand name not only in sports but also academically. Certainly true for the NEast.Common perception is a goupr of academically ecellnt schools ( often in the context of safety schools for those aspiring to IL,but also for many trying for the best academics they can achieve).

[Fordham2012]

I would wager that kids/parents/counselors mention "Patriot League school" at least as often as "A10 school."

OK, I don't disagree with that.

[Bill]

Patriot, Yankee, Colonial - what's the difference ? :)

I do hear the conference referenced all the time....but I work in athletics and should probably be disqualified from any discussion regarding the "real world"!!

[ace93]

I would wager that kids/parents/counselors mention "Patriot League school" at least as often as "A10 school."

So never?

[Sader87]

The "Patriot League" is a bigger brand name in the Middle-Atlantic states imo. One of the reasons BU was added to the PL was to try to extend that brand into New England.

That being said, the "Ivy League" is a brand that really no one else can come close to copying....even then, I'd bet the vast majority of people (who aren't sports fanatics like we are here) couldn't name all of the Ancient VIII.

[Pard4Life]

Not sure what to think... with regard to Ivy, I've heard "NESAC" thrown around a lot... and Big 10, Pac-12, ACC, SEC. Every other conference is not really mentioned all that often... and I usually hear people group Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell together. Army and Navy are so unique that everyone generally says "service academy" not "PL school."

Lafayette receives the most cross-applications with Villanova, Cornell, Lehigh, Bucknell, Penn and some other non-liberal arts schools... I have a list somewhere. From that angle, we are not in a strict grouping. I'd bet the Ivies receive significant applicant cross-over. With regard to the PL, I bet that it's more regional... though Lafayette is trying hard to be more national in the past two years, and I think that they are succeeding thus far.

[ace93]

I could see some people using Patriot League to refer to the schools academically, but would suspect it is very regional. My point earlier though was that I can't see anyone referring to the A10 schools in such a manner. The disparity is too great and there is really no academic distinction being made by saying A10 or Atlantic 10. With the Patriot League there used to be, but I think that is getting watered down a bit with some of the additions made through expansion and not just the most recent expansion. The disparity is too great now.

[Bogus Megapardus]

With the Patriot League there used to be, but I think that is getting watered down a bit with some of the additions made through expansion and not just the most recent expansion. The disparity is too great now.

Totally agree. The cachet of the Patriot League took a huge hit when American U. came in. It was starting to recover but the addition of Boston U. might be the death knell.

I wonder if the "Core 5" schools plus the Academies might spin off and create a "new" Patriot League the way the core Big East schools did. All depends on what happens in football - if Army & Navy are reassigned to FCS with the other second tier FBS schools, it's a whole new ball of wax.

[Go...gate]

You'd be surprised, I think, at the number of guidance counselors and sports coaches who actually do hear this from parents and students. Certainly nowhere near Ivy, of course, but the level of "brand recognition" has increased dramatically in recent years. Addition of Loyola didn't help, though.


Agree with everything in your statement with one exception. Notwithstanding "Metropolitan College", BU does have gravitas academically. IMO, Loyola should lever have been admitted.

[Go...gate]

Totally agree. The cachet of the Patriot League took a huge hit when American U. came in. It was starting to recover but the addition of Boston U. might be the death knell.

I wonder if the "Core 5" schools plus the Academies might spin off and create a "new" Patriot League the way the core Big East schools did. All depends on what happens in football - if Army & Navy are reassigned to FCS with the other second tier FBS schools, it's a whole new ball of wax.

It was different with AU in that their express, long-term strategic plan was to essentially align itself with the Patriot both athletically and academically, and they have done this to a significant degree. I believe BU will do the same, especially because they see the advantage of the academic branding the PL has. This cannot be said of Loyola.

[Go...gate]

I think Penn will not do anything to minimize its affiliation with the Ivy League.

Completely agree.

[RichH2]

Dont disagree with Loyola,Boston U ,however,is not percieved as an avg scholl academically even with Metro. Loyola strictly a lax add,necessary for them in the mad dash of lax schools to get in a conference.

[Go...gate]

Dont disagree with Loyola,Boston U ,however,is not percieved as an avg scholl academically even with Metro. Loyola strictly a lax add,necessary for them in the mad dash of lax schools to get in a conference.

If anything, Loyola is the prototype MAAC school.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It was different with AU in that their express, long-term strategic plan was to essentially align itself with the Patriot both athletically and academically, and they have done this to a significant degree. I believe BU will do the same, especially because they see the advantage of the academic branding the PL has. This cannot be said of Loyola.


Even on the Boston U. message board folks understand that Boston U. is a hockey school and that the PL is just a convenient dumping ground for their other sports - which no one there cares about. Do you think a typical Boston U. student knows anything about, or cares, about the Patriot League? Same with American U. - a typical AU student has no idea whatsoever what conference the Eagles are in or what schools make up the rest of the conference.

Loyola, by contrast, brought its premiere sport - lacrosse - to the Patriot League, and it did so at the time that they were the incumbent NCAA champions. Loyola wants to be PL; Boston U. couldn't care less; and American U. remains clueless about the whole thing.

[Go Green]

The problem is the IL leadership treats football like a wart on its ass, and for some reason nobody is willing to do what Fordham did to force the leadership to make decisions that would benefit its football teams.

Jake is trying to tell his alma mater to start taking football more seriously. See the Columbia thread.

[Go...gate]

Even on the Boston U. message board folks understand that Boston U. is a hockey school and that the PL is just a convenient dumping ground for their other sports - which no one there cares about. Do you think a typical Boston U. student knows anything about, or cares, about the Patriot League? Same with American U. - a typical AU student has no idea whatsoever what conference the Eagles are in or what schools make up the rest of the conference.

Loyola, by contrast, brought its premiere sport - lacrosse - to the Patriot League, and it did so at the time that they were the incumbent NCAA champions. Loyola wants to be PL; Boston U. couldn't care less; and American U. remains clueless about the whole thing.

Bogus, though we usually agree on most matters involving the Patriot and Ivy Leagues, on this one I have to respectfully disagree.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus, though we usually agree on most matters involving the Patriot and Ivy Leagues, on this one I have to respectfully disagree.

I will give Boston U. credit for starting a lacrosse program so that they could get into the PL. That's something, at least.

[bison137]

"Metropolitan College" is Boston University's "community extension" program. It is completely open enrollment; no grades, no SATs and no application is required. Many of Boston U.'s basketball players are admitted through this "Metropolitan College" thing. That's how they get away with it. At "Met U" one can major in "Gastronomy," "Tourism Management" and "Health Communication" (and you though Lehigh was bad). I haven't the slightest idea how Center Valley is going about assessing the Academic Index for these students. But if the AI truly is based on the member's standards, and not a league-wide standard (as is used to be), then in Boston University's case zero times zero equals nothing at all.



All basketball players are required to submit SAT scores. Not only in the PL but in the entire NCAA. So Boston U has no advantage on that score. Their average SAT across the university is not much worse than many PL schools. Their main advantage is their much bigger size and ability to fund at the max for almost every sport.

[Fordham2012]

All basketball players are required to submit SAT scores. Not only in the PL but in the entire NCAA. So Boston U has no advantage on that score. Their average SAT across the university is not much worse than many PL schools. Their main advantage is their much bigger size and ability to fund at the max for almost every sport.


That is true, obviously about SATs needed for NCAA, but the Metropolitan College offers majors that most other PL schools do not. It is not just about getting athletes in, it is also about satisfactory academic progress.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Perhaps the league should require that Boston University athletes at minimum be enrolled in their School of Arts & Sciences or their School of Engineering. I mean, seriously, do you think a kid at West Point or Annapolis gets to major in "Tourism Management?" It's unconscionable, IMHO.

[Fordham2012]

Perhaps the league should require that Boston University athletes at minimum be enrolled in their School of Arts & Sciences or their School of Engineering. I mean, seriously, do you think a kid at West Point or Annapolis gets to major in "Tourism Management?" It's unconscionable, IMHO.


I think they can major in something like that at Cornell.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think they can major in something like that at Cornell.

True, but the PL would never take Cornell . . . . xcoolx

[TheValleyRaider]

True, but the PL would never take Cornell . . . . xcoolx

Nor should we! xshakefistx

[RichH2]

True, but the PL would never take Cornell . . . . xcoolx

Yup, we learned with Towson. No more state schools.SUNY UTICA can stay in the IL

[RichH2]

True, but the PL would never take Cornell . . . . xcoolx

Yup, we learned with Towson. No more state schools.SUNY UTICA can stay in the IL

[Gate83]

True, but the PL would never take Cornell . . . . xcoolx

You mean SUNY-Ithaca? They let their athletes in through the ag school, particularly the hockey thugs. I'd assume the rest of the Ivies are somewhat embarrassed to be associated with the Big Dead...

In terms of our outliers, if Metro is a hockey school & Gtown is a hoops school & Loyola is a lax school & they all are using the PL for selfish reasons, what's the difference? Either throw them all out or live with their warts. Guess we've decided as a conference that a few warts are OK.

[Go...gate]

Yup, we learned with Towson. No more state schools.SUNY UTICA can stay in the IL

Utica????

[RichH2]

LOL typing on phone s/b Ithaca.