W&M and the PL

[Franks Tanks]

I know ANOTHER discussion, but I found an interesting article.

http://shadesof48.com/?p=269

The writer gathered internal e-mails from W&M that shows the admin had a serious discussion regarding the PL. It states that W&M was formally invited to join the league via a phone call by the AD at Bucknell.

W&M athletic director Terry Driscoll writes via e-mail that the PL hoped "to create a southern division of the PL with W&M and Richmond as the anchors."

Much of this has been inferred, but I believe this is the 1st time i've seen any sort of confirmation.

[RichH2]

Interesting. agree nice to get confirmation of events. Gist pretty much what I had heard from conversations at lehigh. Southern division referrence new to me.
That said you do realize FT that there is a special place in h*ll reserved for even mentioning these topics in publicxsighxxtroublexxmadx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That is one awesome timeline. It kind-of confirms what I thought, too, that W&M was thinking about it. Left unsaid was Richmond joining the PL in football as well.

It seems to also indicate that Loyola (MD) was second choice.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"The Patriot League wants us and it would be a much better academic fit, but my impression is that it doesn’t have the same caliber varsity athletics as the CAA, especially when it comes to football."

And how do two teams form a southern division?

Isn't that DAMNED INTERESTING. The only way you get a southern division is by expanding to at least 10 football teams.

VMI, maybe, would have been the 10th team?

North
HC
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette

South
Bucknell
Georgetown
VMI
Richmond
W&M

Kind of a tough sell there for Richmond and W&M, IMO.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not an easy way to set up a 10-team PL with those teams no matter how you slice it.

[carney2]

This is much further along than I ever imagined. W&M without Richmond (football) is hard to envision, and Richmond has an unpleasant history with the Patriot League. Still (from the League's vantage point) W&M is one of the 3 best fits (along with Richmond and Villanova). So, what do you think the chances are? 50-50? Better? Worse?

[cmaxwellgsu]

I would give this a very slim chance of happening without more shuffling in the CAA. Why would two good programs leave a superior league for a one bid league who just got scholarships? I'm not surprised at all that so many schools are looking at different conferences, and there will probably be a WAC or two at the FCS level but I don't see them leaving the CAA. Their league is a playoff pipeline, and it would take the Patriot a few more years to prove they have become more competitive.

[Kramer]

I would give this a very slim chance of happening without more shuffling in the CAA. Why would two good programs leave a superior league for a one bid league who just got scholarships? I'm not surprised at all that so many schools are looking at different conferences, and there will probably be a WAC or two at the FCS level but I don't see them leaving the CAA. Their league is a playoff pipeline, and it would take the Patriot a few more years to prove they have become more competitive.

I agree. I would think these schools would want to wait and see how the PL changes once scholarships have been around for a few years. If the league becomes more competitive (improves) it may become more attractive to them.

[carney2]

I would give this a very slim chance of happening without more shuffling in the CAA. Why would two good programs leave a superior league for a one bid league who just got scholarships? I'm not surprised at all that so many schools are looking at different conferences, and there will probably be a WAC or two at the FCS level but I don't see them leaving the CAA. Their league is a playoff pipeline, and it would take the Patriot a few more years to prove they have become more competitive.

I agree that the chances are somewhat remote, but I'm not convinced that FCS playoff opportunities would play a huge role in any final decision. W&M has not been a playoff regular from a multi, multi bid CAA, making "only" 4 appearances in this century. In no particular order, it appears that W&M priorities would be financial (traveling north for a lot of games would not be good), maintaining traditional rivalries (recent CAA desertions may have already put a dent in this), and associating with one's academic peers (the Patriot League would be an upgrade here). The level of athletic competition would also enter into the decision, but football scholarships in the Patriot League should narrow this gap over the next few years. One must also factor in presumed resistance from the W&M community at large, particularly alumni and students. This was the factor that torpedoed Richmond's dalliance with the Patriot League.

[Franks Tanks]

I would give this a very slim chance of happening without more shuffling in the CAA. Why would two good programs leave a superior league for a one bid league who just got scholarships? I'm not surprised at all that so many schools are looking at different conferences, and there will probably be a WAC or two at the FCS level but I don't see them leaving the CAA. Their league is a playoff pipeline, and it would take the Patriot a few more years to prove they have become more competitive.

It wouldn't be a one bid league for long with Richmond, William & Mary, full scholarships and the defection of quite a few of the stronger FCS programs to FBS. I do agree that we probably won't see this happen anytime soon, but can if we see a large scale re-structuring of D-I football tiers.

[RichH2]

if PL utilizes schollies effectively, I would not be surprised 3-4 yrs onward that it regularly gets 2 bids. Shifting sands of FCS ,BCS and FBS will play out w perhaps some impact. Agree thos,if more top teams move up, and we stay at 24 multi bids will be more common. Agree with Kramer, no more movement on football side until PL has 4-5 yrs of schollies. Hopefully we will be attractive enuf to finally get Football roster completed

[cmaxwellgsu]

I agree that the chances are somewhat remote, but I'm not convinced that FCS playoff opportunities would play a huge role in any final decision. W&M has not been a playoff regular from a multi, multi bid CAA, making "only" 4 appearances in this century. In no particular order, it appears that W&M priorities would be financial (traveling north for a lot of games would not be good), maintaining traditional rivalries (recent CAA desertions may have already put a dent in this), and associating with one's academic peers (the Patriot League would be an upgrade here). The level of athletic competition would also enter into the decision, but football scholarships in the Patriot League should narrow this gap over the next few years.

Time will tell on it. I just don't see an AD leaving a sure thing for a maybe. The other issue I see would be if William & Mary or Richmond would balk at the AI. I would imagine both have good players who are getting it done in the classroom that wouldn't qualify. Who knows, maybe the Patriot moves up the FCS ladder over the next few years.

[CFBfan]

It wouldn't be a one bid league for long with Richmond, William & Mary, full scholarships and the defection of quite a few of the stronger FCS programs to FBS. I do agree that we probably won't see this happen anytime soon, but can if we see a large scale re-structuring of D-I football tiers.

I think that you're dead on FT that it would soon become a "more than 1 bid" league, scholarships and a strong program added

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You know what became a lot more interesting? WWJMUD.

[LeadBolt]

As long as the AI and ban on redshirts are in place I don't see either UR or W&M in the Patriot, this on top of increased costs of travel are major draw backs.

[bostonspider]

Isn't that DAMNED INTERESTING. The only way you get a southern division is by expanding to at least 10 football teams.

VMI, maybe, would have been the 10th team?

North
HC
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette

South
Bucknell
Georgetown
VMI
Richmond
W&M

Kind of a tough sell there for Richmond and W&M, IMO.

Maybe it is 12 teams and you add Villanova and say Elon

North
HC
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell

South
Villanova
Georgetown
VMI
Richmond
W&M
Elon

[carney2]

You know what became a lot more interesting? WWJMUD.

Perhaps this is what passes for spelling in South Bethlehem. In the rest of America it is downright gibberish. What are you saying LFN?!!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Perhaps this is what passes for spelling in South Bethlehem. In the rest of America it is downright gibberish. What are you saying LFN?!!

What
Will
JMU
Do.

;)

[RichH2]

AI seemingly not the issue with W&M, red shirt rules were major problem. Dont know about JMU

[ccd494]

Seems like the major problem was the competition level and the travel. Unless and until JMU leaves, those will continue to be larger issues in the PL than the CAA. It seems like most of this was informal "is this an option?" type discussions, which may now be filed in a "break glass in case of emergency" box.

[carney2]

AI seemingly not the issue with W&M, red shirt rules were major problem. Dont know about JMU

Personally, I see the AI as "negotiable" in the long run. Patriot League redshirt rules, on the other hand, would hit W&M hard, and I don't see a lot of wiggle room there.

[Lehigh'98]

I have a hunch JMU will be looking to go FBS once they get their consultant report. For a program with their attendance, it would make more sense than staying FCS. This may be what ultimately brings W&M and maybe Richmond into the PL. It would, however, seemingly be the beginning of the end for CAA.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Maybe it is 12 teams and you add Villanova and say Elon

North
HC
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell

South
Villanova
Georgetown
VMI
Richmond
W&M
Elon


Seems like the major problem was the competition level and the travel. Unless and until JMU leaves, those will continue to be larger issues in the PL than the CAA. It seems like most of this was informal "is this an option?" type discussions, which may now be filed in a "break glass in case of emergency" box.

If the divisional setup in Post 1 is the ultimate vision, than both "competition level" and "travel" would seem to be taken care of fairly well, no?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's another divisional setup that would make Lehigh and Lafayette drool:

North
HC
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette
Delaware

South
Villanova
Georgetown
VMI
Richmond
W&M
Bucknell

Or switch Delaware and Bucknell - still drool-worthy.

[RichH2]

If as seems possible FBS splits apart, what is the draw for any FCS to move to a truncated 50 or so member FBS,

[LeadBolt]

The other existing, potential option would seem to be the SoCon. There is history there, both good and bad. Travel costs would be similar to PL without the AI or red shirt issue.

[UNHWildcat18]

Richmond being in the A-10 for sports besides football will not leave CAAFB for PLFB, not a chance. W&M for all sports, doubtful still. Yeah you can say Nova W&M and UR would be great in PLFB but they would not leave UNH, SB, UD, Towson, JMU(granted still FBS) for Lehigh HC, Fordham ect.....

[bostonspider]

I guess the worries in the admins of W&M and UR are if JMU and UD decide to head to FBS. Does Towson follow? If so, what is there to keep UR and W&M in the CAAFB? UNH has been a nice rival, but SB, UA, URI, etc are not going to be the schools that help bring in the fans. If this were to happen, I think UR and W&M would work with new conference foe Elon to see what is best for their football programs. Maybe it is the PL, maybe it is a reconsituted SoCon. Furman, VMI and the Citadel are all long standing historical conference rivals of UR and W&M. Combine those three with Elon, Samford, Mercer and others and you get a nice southern football conference with very strong academics as well.

[ccd494]

If the divisional setup in Post 1 is the ultimate vision, than both "competition level" and "travel" would seem to be taken care of fairly well, no?

Sure but that seems incredibly far fetched to me.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I guess the worries in the admins of W&M and UR are if JMU and UD decide to head to FBS. Does Towson follow? If so, what is there to keep UR and W&M in the CAAFB? UNH has been a nice rival, but SB, UA, URI, etc are not going to be the schools that help bring in the fans. If this were to happen, I think UR and W&M would work with new conference foe Elon to see what is best for their football programs. Maybe it is the PL, maybe it is a reconsituted SoCon. Furman, VMI and the Citadel are all long standing historical conference rivals of UR and W&M. Combine those three with Elon, Samford, Mercer and others and you get a nice southern football conference with very strong academics as well.

All very valid points, of course, but I wonder how open the SoCon would be to re-admitting Elon given the recent animosity.

[carney2]

Delaware?!!! Are you kidding me?!!! Did we learn nothing from the Towson experience?

[CFBfan]

Here's another divisional setup that would make Lehigh and Lafayette drool:

North
HC
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette
Delaware

South
Villanova
Georgetown
VMI
Richmond
W&M
Bucknell

Or switch Delaware and Bucknell - still drool-worthy.

xdeadhorsex

[Tribal]

IMO, the way the PL stands now, the likelihood of W&M going to the PL in all sports except football is slim to none. The likelihood of going to the PL for all sports is < never.

The Academic Index, lack of schollies, and no redshirts are just a few reasons why this won't happen. We'd never be able to schedule another UVA, VT, WVU, or UNC causing us to lose $400k a year and a great recruiting tool. W&M would be the lone public school. We currently play 4-5 teams who go to the playoffs most years. Our fan support and financial giving would suffer. Travel is an issue but not a deathnail.

Just makes no sense.

BTW, I'm certainly NOT degrading the athletic ability of PL schools and I love their academics.

[PAllen]

IMO, the way the PL stands now, the likelihood of W&M going to the PL in all sports except football is slim to none. The likelihood of going to the PL for all sports is < never.

The Academic Index, lack of schollies, and no redshirts are just a few reasons why this won't happen. We'd never be able to schedule another UVA, VT, WVU, or UNC causing us to lose $400k a year and a great recruiting tool. W&M would be the lone public school. We currently play 4-5 teams who go to the playoffs most years. Our fan support and financial giving would suffer. Travel is an issue but not a deathnail.

Just makes no sense.

BTW, I'm certainly NOT degrading the athletic ability of PL schools and I love their academics.

Why exactly would the AI or no redshirts prevent you from playing UVa etc?

[CFBfan]

IMO, the way the PL stands now, the likelihood of W&M going to the PL in all sports except football is slim to none. The likelihood of going to the PL for all sports is < never.

The Academic Index, lack of schollies, and no redshirts are just a few reasons why this won't happen. We'd never be able to schedule another UVA, VT, WVU, or UNC causing us to lose $400k a year and a great recruiting tool. W&M would be the lone public school. We currently play 4-5 teams who go to the playoffs most years. Our fan support and financial giving would suffer. Travel is an issue but not a deathnail.

Just makes no sense.

BTW, I'm certainly NOT degrading the athletic ability of PL schools and I love their academics.

the flip side is that with 24 red shirt frosh on the roster being eliminated W&M would save well over $500,000

[fc97]

I guess this sort of solidifies that whole davidson and elon patriot talk too. i have to think that elon wouldn't be in the caa and vice versa if w&m and richmond were leaving at this point.

[fc97]

All very valid points, of course, but I wonder how open the SoCon would be to re-admitting Elon given the recent animosity.

the elon animosity is there, with some schools and the socon office for some reason. however, with furman, uncg, wofford there isn't any animosity, at least between the schools. it might be more likely that the caa adds more southern schools at some point than anyone coming back.

[bostonspider]

I do think that if JMU and UD do decide to go FBS, that might cause a reshuffling of the FCS eastern and southern conferences. How that would eventually pan out is still a mystery. As long as Richmond plays W&M to finish the season, I am sure it will all work out.

[Sandlapper Spike]

All very valid points, of course, but I wonder how open the SoCon would be to re-admitting Elon given the recent animosity.

Elon isn't coming back, but I don't think William & Mary and Richmond would be affected by whatever league Elon is in. Neither school has any real history with Elon.

In that scenario Richmond would be a football-only member, of course, essentially taking UNC-Greensboro's spot in that sport.


I am a little curious as to how the seemingly inevitable move by the P5 schools to separate themselves from the rest of FBS will impact JMU's decision on whether or not to move up.

[Tribe4SF]

the flip side is that with 24 red shirt frosh on the roster being eliminated W&M would save well over $500,000

No it wouldn't. We'd still have 63 equivalencies on scholarship each year.

What it would do is decimate our walk-on program. We get many each year on the promise that they will have a year to develop, and possibly earn a scholarship down the road. There are 13 of them coming in this year. We will have seven guys starting this year who were originally walk-ons. Among the former players who probably would never have enrolled under a PL setup are current NY Giant DE Adrian Tracy, and 2004 Peyton Award winner Lang Campbell. Both were walk-ons, and both had other opportunities.

[Tribe4SF]

This is all wishful thinking on the part of PL fans. If you read all the emails in that column, you read our President saying that a reconstituted CAA was best for us. While the PL longs for expansion candidates, the CAA adds Albany and SBU for football, and Elon and CofC for all sports. The league is different for sure, but it's still the best fit for W&M, and likely will continue to be so.

[Tribal]

the flip side is that with 24 red shirt frosh on the roster being eliminated W&M would save well over $500,000

Not so...W&M has a storied history of successful walk-ons...guys who, if ever, earn schollies their 3rd, 4th, or 5th yr. Not all RF are scholarship athletes.

Money aside, a chance to stick it to the FBS schools who offered no invite is a big recruiting tool for CAA schools. How many PL schools play Penn St, Pitt, Cuse, or Rutgers?



....sorry for the redundancy, I hadn't read SF's post when I wrote that.

None of this is a jab at the PL. Hope you guys don't take it that way.

[Tribal]

Why exactly would the AI or no redshirts prevent you from playing UVa etc?

Those schools won't play a PL program. Not fair, IMO, but it's a fact.

[Pard4Life]

I know ANOTHER discussion, but I found an interesting article.

http://shadesof48.com/?p=269

The writer gathered internal e-mails from W&M that shows the admin had a serious discussion regarding the PL. It states that W&M was formally invited to join the league via a phone call by the AD at Bucknell.

W&M athletic director Terry Driscoll writes via e-mail that the PL hoped "to create a southern division of the PL with W&M and Richmond as the anchors."

Much of this has been inferred, but I believe this is the 1st time i've seen any sort of confirmation.

I said this last year... citing a legit source... not new...

[Pard4Life]

Isn't that DAMNED INTERESTING. The only way you get a southern division is by expanding to at least 10 football teams.

VMI, maybe, would have been the 10th team?

North
HC
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette

South
Bucknell
Georgetown
VMI
Richmond
W&M

Kind of a tough sell there for Richmond and W&M, IMO.

Interesting... this was one of my fantasy concepts on the PL board last year... a PL south, but including some of the small liberal arts schools from the SoCon... i.e. Elon, Furman, Wofford.

It's not that illogical and far-fetched as it may seem.

[Gater]

It's actually not a fact that these schools won't play Patriot League Schools. Colgate played Syracuse in 2010. Fordham just played Cincinnati and UCONN. Colgate has Ball State, Air Force and Navy in the next two years and apparently Army and Vanderbilt after that.
And, according to a regular poster on Colgate's site, Colgate recently turned down Florida State. Seems like the games are there. Maybe more of a question of which games the Patriot League schools will take.

[Pard4Life]

It's actually not a fact that these schools won't play Patriot League Schools. Colgate played Syracuse in 2010. Fordham just played Cincinnati and UCONN. Colgate has Ball State, Air Force and Navy in the next two years and apparently Army and Vanderbilt after that.
And, according to a regular poster on Colgate's site, Colgate recently turned down Florida State. Seems like the games are there. Maybe more of a question of which games the Patriot League schools will take.

Yup, looks like the theory holds true... comparable MAC schools (i.e. Ball State... hey! it's Lembo!) and academic schools, i.e. Vandy and Army.

[RichH2]

This is all wishful thinking on the part of PL fans. If you read all the emails in that column, you read our President saying that a reconstituted CAA was best for us. While the PL longs for expansion candidates, the CAA adds Albany and SBU for football, and Elon and CofC for all sports. The league is different for sure, but it's still the best fit for W&M, and likely will continue to be so.

Not saying they are now just saying the interest was there then. Now makes no sense for any to consider a move.

[Tribal]

It's actually not a fact that these schools won't play Patriot League Schools. Colgate played Syracuse in 2010. Fordham just played Cincinnati and UCONN. Colgate has Ball State, Air Force and Navy in the next two years and apparently Army and Vanderbilt after that.
And, according to a regular poster on Colgate's site, Colgate recently turned down Florida State. Seems like the games are there. Maybe more of a question of which games the Patriot League schools will take.

Okay, W&M plays ACC schools (except WVU this season) every year. I can't imagine those schools would host a PL program.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Okay, W&M plays ACC schools (except WVU this season) every year. I can't imagine those schools would host a PL program.

Duke will host a PL team within the next five years, I feel.

[DFW HOYA]

Duke will host a PL team within the next five years, I feel.

Duke's future schedules are settling in through the next five, no PL teams:

2014 – Kansas; Tulane; Elon
2015 – at Army; N.C. Central; Northwestern; at Tulane
2016 – Army; at Northwestern; at Notre Dame
2017 – at Army; Baylor; Northwestern
2018 – Army; at Baylor; N.C. Central; at Northwestern

Yes, I would like to see Georgetown mentioned in this thread. Yes, I know it won't.

[Sader87]

It's not like W&M doesn't have any history with the PL....they were actually one of the first members of the Colonial League and played Colgate, Lehigh, Bucknell and Holy Cross in both 1986 and 1987....HC spanked the Tribe both years btw xnodx.

Actually though, I'm not clamoring for another PL football member...I like the 6 PL games, 3 Ivy games and 2 games to play around with (CAA, FBS etc) for Holy Cross future schedules.

[Gater]

It makes sense that ACC schools wouldn't host Patriot League schools based on geography. Just like it makes less sense for Big East schools to host William and Mary than Colgate or Fordham. The CAA is a better than the Patriot League. It will be interesting to see how different the two leagues are in five years. I can't imagine the CAA would have been too excited about adding Albany and Stony Brook five years ago.

[Tribe4SF]

It makes sense that ACC schools wouldn't host Patriot League schools based on geography. Just like it makes less sense for Big East schools to host William and Mary than Colgate or Fordham. The CAA is a better than the Patriot League. It will be interesting to see how different the two leagues are in five years. I can't imagine the CAA would have been too excited about adding Albany and Stony Brook five years ago.

You're right, but those programs have grown by leaps and bounds since then. They've made the commitment to compete at the highest level of FCS, and have already been to the playoffs. Both are a good academic fit, and I believe both could eventually be all sport members.

[Tribe4SF]

It's not like W&M doesn't have any history with the PL....they were actually one of the first members of the Colonial League and played Colgate, Lehigh, Bucknell and Holy Cross in both 1986 and 1987....HC spanked the Tribe both years btw xnodx.



HC spanked a lot of people during those two years. They were a lock(baum) in most of their games.

W&M played three other PL teams regularly from 1984-1992 when we were an independent. Went 8-1 against Lehigh, 5-1 against Colgate, and 3-0 against Bucknell.

[danefan]

You're right, but those programs have grown by leaps and bounds since then. They've made the commitment to compete at the highest level of FCS, and have already been to the playoffs. Both are a good academic fit, and I believe both could eventually be all sport members.

Exactly. Albany and Stony Brook aren't the same teams that played in the NEC in e early 2000s. These are fully funded FCS teams with good facilities and great coaches.

Perfect fits for the CAA football conference now. It just so happened that it coincided with a vacancy in the CAA.

[Fordham]

Okay, W&M plays ACC schools (except WVU this season) every year. I can't imagine those schools would host a PL program.

With another few years of scholarship classes I'll bet BC is nearly as likely to host HC as UVA is to host you guys (nearly ... given that there's much closer recent history between you two it's not as much).

That said, I agree with your overall point that this is more so wishful thinking on most PL fans' part. The emails do show us a) knowledgeable and well considered emails from your leadership (I'd hate to have my work emails exposed like that btw and I'm impressed overall with their tone and content) and b) even if there are still several steps required or things that must happen before a move like this would take place we are now a few steps closer than many of us thought we were. It's not simply crazy message board banter anymore even if it's still not THAT close to happening.

I think the Stony Brook & Albany comments are dead on in terms of how their commitment turned those programs around quickly from the early 2000's. I think you're going to see a similar-if-not-exact good jump up in competitiveness and SOS from several schools in the PL overall in the next few years as well and that will be one of the big steps that can help make something like this happen imo.

[DFW HOYA]

Related to I-A guarantee (aka "body bag") games, this thought:

Unless the so-called Division IV decides no longer to schedule outside their realm (which is possible), I see Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, and Holy Cross has having regular contact with the I-A teams as a 60 scholarship program. It may not always be Syracuse or BC, and may involve some travel to unfamiliar locales, but the name recognition is there.

Lafayette and Bucknell have a tougher hill to climb. Short of a gift from Penn State or Pitt, these schools would have a tougher time attracting I-A opponents unless they are willing to take any offer and travel to fill in some Sun Belt or C-USA team in need of a win. Does Frank Tavani want to play at UTSA or at Tulsa for a check? Maybe, maybe not.

Finally, Georgetown is not going to attract impactful non-conference opponents. The operative question is whether the scenario of becoming a Columbia-level program in the PL drives the non-conference schedule to feature better opponents to maintain some interest in the program absent any PL games to get excited about, or merely freezes the non-conference schedule to a subset of Ivies, Davidson, and Marist.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

W&M while a solid program has struggled for nearly a decade. They would be a nice addition but far from a must have imo.

Not sure what they would bring from an all sports perspective. Their men's bball team is historically inept.

[ccd494]

W&M while a solid program has struggled for nearly a decade. They would be a nice addition but far from a must have imo.

Not sure what they would bring from an all sports perspective. Their men's bball team is historically inept.

William & Mary has been to the playoffs four times since 2000. Two of the last four years. If that is struggling, then the entire PL is decrepit.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

William & Mary has been to the playoffs four times since 2000. Two of the last four years. If that is struggling, then the entire PL is decrepit.

They have numerous losing seasons since 2005. They've either made the playoffs or struggled, i.e. losing record...

[Franks Tanks]

Related to I-A guarantee (aka "body bag") games, this thought:

Unless the so-called Division IV decides no longer to schedule outside their realm (which is possible), I see Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, and Holy Cross has having regular contact with the I-A teams as a 60 scholarship program. It may not always be Syracuse or BC, and may involve some travel to unfamiliar locales, but the name recognition is there.

Lafayette and Bucknell have a tougher hill to climb. Short of a gift from Penn State or Pitt, these schools would have a tougher time attracting I-A opponents unless they are willing to take any offer and travel to fill in some Sun Belt or C-USA team in need of a win. Does Frank Tavani want to play at UTSA or at Tulsa for a check? Maybe, maybe not.

Finally, Georgetown is not going to attract impactful non-conference opponents. The operative question is whether the scenario of becoming a Columbia-level program in the PL drives the non-conference schedule to feature better opponents to maintain some interest in the program absent any PL games to get excited about, or merely freezes the non-conference schedule to a subset of Ivies, Davidson, and Marist.

I dont think a school like Syracuse, historical rivalry with Colgate considered, whould really care if they played Lehigh, Fordham, Cross, Lafayette or Bucknell. Sure certain programs are stronger than others, but we will all be counters and be overmatched. Schools with crappy teams like Western Carolina and Charlston Southern get as many games against powerful programs like Florida as any other good team. Big programs are pretty FCS agnostic. As long as you are a counter, and agree to the pay out you are in.

[ccd494]

They have numerous losing seasons since 2005. They've either made the playoffs or struggled, i.e. losing record...

Welcome to playing in a tough conference. The only CAA teams who don't have losing seasons since 2005 are UNH and JMU. You guys all get boners for Delaware and Villanova to join. Delaware has three losing seasons since 2005. Villanova has two.

Frankly, if you are in the CAA those are generally the only two options (last year excepted). You either have a winning record and go to the playoffs or a losing record and stay home.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Welcome to playing in a tough conference. The only CAA teams who don't have losing seasons since 2005 are UNH and JMU. You guys all get boners for Delaware and Villanova to join. Delaware has three losing seasons since 2005. Villanova has two.

Frankly, if you are in the CAA those are generally the only two options (last year excepted). You either have a winning record and go to the playoffs or a losing record and stay home.

Everyone has losing seasons. My point is, W&M has not been one of CAA's stronger programs for the better part of the last decade.

The Tribe would be a nice addition but are not a must have. I think the league should stay the course and just try to be better than the CAA in football and hoops.

[Fordham]

I dont think a school like Syracuse, historical rivalry with Colgate considered, whould really care if they played Lehigh, Fordham, Cross, Lafayette or Bucknell. Sure certain programs are stronger than others, but we will all be counters and be overmatched. Schools with crappy teams like Western Carolina and Charlston Southern get as many games against powerful programs like Florida as any other good team. Big programs are pretty FCS agnostic. As long as you are a counter, and agree to the pay out you are in.

I agree.

You can arguably go one step further and say there might be a preference for a MAC level team to play a Bucknell rather than a souped up Lehigh squad (assuming here for a moment that Bucknell continues to be a lower half division team and Lehigh clearly in the upper half). The fan base at that MAC school won't recognize the difference in quality between the two schools - they'll just know that this is supposed to be a winnable FCS game. The last thing they can afford to do is to get beaten in that game. Same payout, same fan expectations ... so take the easier game.

[Engineer86]

William & Mary has been to the playoffs four times since 2000. Two of the last four years. If that is struggling, then the entire PL is decrepit.

Really, "entire PL is decrepit"? ... 2011? Please, I read the entire thread of reasonable discussion to get to this. xrotatehx

[RichH2]

Aww 86, you know there is no AI at Maine,xrolleyesx

[Go...gate]

The just-released Forbes rating of the top 650 undergraduate schools provides a compelling reason why W & M, not to mention Richmond, Villanova and VMI, belong in the Patriot League. I note that new PL members Boston University and Loyola - Maryland scored very well in the ratings. I also note that Bucknell is not rated, and ask our Bison brethren if they can clarify why this is the case.

http://www.forbes.com/top-colleges/list/#page:1_sort:0_direction:asc_search:_filter:All%20 states

To wit, full Patriot League Member ratings:

USMA - #7
USNA - #28
Colgate - #36
Lafayette - #48
Lehigh - #70
Holy Cross - #71
Boston U. - #85
American U. - #116
Loyola (MD) - #127

Associate Patriot League Member rankings:
MIT - #10
Georgetown - #26
Fordham - #163

Former Member and Prospective Member rankings (includes past and present candidates, including those proposed by AGS posters):
Davidson (former Associate Member) - #32
William & Mary (Founding and prospective member) - #44
George Washington - #77
Villanova - #79
VMI - #87
Richmond - #88
Hobart (former Associate Member) - #108
Wofford - #119
Furman - #144
Drake - #162
University of San Diego - #172
Fairfield - #185
Clarkson - #187
St. Joseph's (PA) - #227
Elon - #234
Northeastern - #236
Dayton - #249
Quinnipiac - #261
Duquesne - #332
Marist - #375
Wagner - #337
Towson (former Associate Member) - #400
Rider - #496
Hofstra (denied membership at least once) - #383
Monmouth - Not Rated

[UNHWildcat18]

Everyone has losing seasons. My point is, W&M has not been one of CAA's stronger programs for the better part of the last decade.

The Tribe would be a nice addition but are not a must have. I think the league should stay the course and just try to be better than the CAA in football and hoops.

I'd like to see that day ;)

[van]

Related to I-A guarantee (aka "body bag") games, this thought:

Unless the so-called Division IV decides no longer to schedule outside their realm (which is possible), I see Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, and Holy Cross has having regular contact with the I-A teams as a 60 scholarship program. It may not always be Syracuse or BC, and may involve some travel to unfamiliar locales, but the name recognition is there.

Lafayette and Bucknell have a tougher hill to climb. Short of a gift from Penn State or Pitt, these schools would have a tougher time attracting I-A opponents unless they are willing to take any offer and travel to fill in some Sun Belt or C-USA team in need of a win. Does Frank Tavani want to play at UTSA or at Tulsa for a check? Maybe, maybe not.

Finally, Georgetown is not going to attract impactful non-conference opponents. The operative question is whether the scenario of becoming a Columbia-level program in the PL drives the non-conference schedule to feature better opponents to maintain some interest in the program absent any PL games to get excited about, or merely freezes the non-conference schedule to a subset of Ivies, Davidson, and Marist.

Surprised that Pards would have a hard time finding a play up game once they are counters, if they were interested in same.

[Go...gate]

Related to I-A guarantee (aka "body bag") games, this thought:

Unless the so-called Division IV decides no longer to schedule outside their realm (which is possible), I see Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, and Holy Cross has having regular contact with the I-A teams as a 60 scholarship program. It may not always be Syracuse or BC, and may involve some travel to unfamiliar locales, but the name recognition is there.

Lafayette and Bucknell have a tougher hill to climb. Short of a gift from Penn State or Pitt, these schools would have a tougher time attracting I-A opponents unless they are willing to take any offer and travel to fill in some Sun Belt or C-USA team in need of a win. Does Frank Tavani want to play at UTSA or at Tulsa for a check? Maybe, maybe not.

Finally, Georgetown is not going to attract impactful non-conference opponents. The operative question is whether the scenario of becoming a Columbia-level program in the PL drives the non-conference schedule to feature better opponents to maintain some interest in the program absent any PL games to get excited about, or merely freezes the non-conference schedule to a subset of Ivies, Davidson, and Marist.

Agreed. My thinking is that like Columbia in the Ivy, Georgetown will have the occasional strong team but, overall, will struggle to break even.

[DFW HOYA]

Agreed. My thinking is that like Columbia in the Ivy, Georgetown will have the occasional strong team but, overall, will struggle to break even.

Unfortunately, the better example is Davidson in the Southern Conference after it went non-scholarship in the mid 1970's.

[Go...gate]

Unfortunately, the better example is Davidson in the Southern Conference after it went non-scholarship in the mid 1970's.

I hope not. I actually think it will be more competitive because the admissions standards in the SoCon varied widely at that time.

[Doc QB]

Exactly. Albany and Stony Brook aren't the same teams that played in the NEC in e early 2000s. These are fully funded FCS teams with good facilities and great coaches.

Perfect fits for the CAA football conference now. It just so happened that it coincided with a vacancy in the CAA.

Correct assessment. And with a few years of scholarships, why is it insane to believe the PL will be anything but more competitive as well? Some of the schools already have been nationally when that privilege was earned in the playoffs. We have solid stadiums, facilities, academic and football reps already. And is it similarly insane to think that with FBS defections and fewer teams left in FCS that other shifting will be considered or actually occur? I find it not at all surprising the pres and AD were exploring PL membership for W&M. It's what they do. They don't sit around all day singing the school fight song and write checks for the different sports, they manage their department.

[ccd494]

Really, "entire PL is decrepit"? ... 2011? Please, I read the entire thread of reasonable discussion to get to this. xrotatehx

They don't teach you Patriot League fancy boys "if/then" statements, huh?


William & Mary has been to the playoffs four times since 2000. Two of the last four years. If that is struggling, then the entire PL is decrepit.

[Bogus Megapardus]

xtwocentsx -

Despite being an "original" Patriot League member (for about fifteen minutes) William and Mary will not now, and will never in the future, re-join the league. This is because


1. Its alumni and fans will continue to complain that the PL constitutes an emasculating, belittling nosedive in athletic quality across the board and an abandonment of all that the Tribe holds dear. Even if PL teams were to beat W&M consistently in football and in other sports (though such match-ups remain few) I doubt this view would change. As is pervasive throughout much of higher education today, inchoate perception and visceral reflex bests numbers, facts and historical context.

2. Alumni and fans aside, W&M as an institution really doesn't want to be here. Yes, it discussed what to do if the CAA collapses (as did every other CAA member, I'm sure). But would anyone really believe the obligatory "really excited to become a member . . . " press release were it to happen? Compare W&M's PL-phobia to Boston University, which sought PL membership so doggedly that it started a men's lacrosse program just so it could join. What does it say when someone goes to the trouble of a FoIA request out of fear that William & Mary might be considering Patriot League membership? "I'll put a stop to this right now . . . "

3. William & Mary would not necessarily receive a warm PL embrace if it put terms and conditions on PL football-only membership (about redshirting, academic index, roster size, etc.) if CAA football collapses and it has nowhere else to play football. Maybe just park football here for a little while until a better off comes along? You're either in, or you're not. And if you're in, it's for keeps. In this regard, maybe the Big South would be a much better option for the Tribe.

4. Popular sentiment notwithstanding, Terry Driscoll probably knows that the Tribe wouldn't do very well in the Patriot League outside of football (where they'd have a shot at second or third place in the PL standings). Were full league membership (not just football) to be considered, W&M would be last and a perennial bottom-dweller in men's basketball. Its participation would damage the league's basketball RPI and jeopardize its tournament seeding. Men's soccer would fall to sixth or seventh place in the PL (behind American, Loyola, Navy, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate and possibly Lehigh). Women's soccer might fare better - possibly third in the league, but women's lacrosse would fall to fifth or sixth in the PL. Volleyball would be fifth, at best. The Tribe's highly-touted field hockey team would fall to fourth or fifth (behind Boston U., American, Lafayette and Bucknell). Only baseball would have a clear shot at a title, competing against Holy Cross and Army.

William & Mary has no men's lacrosse team (a premiere sport in the Patriot League) and it has no softball team. That does not help the PL.

So, regardless of how W&M Mary "feels" about it, the Tribe just wouldn't bring a whole lot to the PL table aside from a middle-of-the-pack football team that doesn't want to be here. Anyone disagree?

[Franks Tanks]

Surprised that Pards would have a hard time finding a play up game once they are counters, if they were interested in same.

There is really no reasonable reason to suggest we wouldn't. We played Army something like 14 years in a row from 83 to 97 (I could be wrong, don't feel like looking it up). Frank has already said that FBS games are in our near future.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

William & Mary has no men's lacrosse team (a premiere sport in the Patriot League) and it has no softball team. That does not help the PL.

So, regardless of how W&M Mary "feels" about it, the Tribe just wouldn't bring a whole lot to the PL table aside from a middle-of-the-pack football team that doesn't want to be here. Anyone disagree?

Apparently, the PL presidents disagree, because "if [their] situation with the CAA were to change, W&M is at the top of the Patriot League's list of potential new members.", adding for good measure that the "Patriot League wanted to be sure that W&M knows they are an option."

[LeadBolt]

Correct assessment. And with a few years of scholarships, why is it insane to believe the PL will be anything but more competitive as well? Some of the schools already have been nationally when that privilege was earned in the playoffs. We have solid stadiums, facilities, academic and football reps already. And is it similarly insane to think that with FBS defections and fewer teams left in FCS that other shifting will be considered or actually occur? I find it not at all surprising the pres and AD were exploring PL membership for W&M. It's what they do. They don't sit around all day singing the school fight song and write checks for the different sports, they manage their department.

I agree. The PL will get more competitive and attractive over time in football. Not sure about other sports. Costs remain very important to W&M as its athletic department does not get the same level of support as many of its rivals. School tradition is to play up vs. better funded, more competitive opponents, and it shows in W&M w/l records.

Conference membership will continue to be discussed and debated as the landscape changes. Red shirting is very important to W&M as its football model is predicated on bringing in many quality walk-ons, red shirting them and giving scholarships down the road as they develop athletically and academically. There are currently two of these preferred walk-ons on NFL rosters.

What Richmond and Delaware do going forward is important to W&M's future outlook. Not sure about Elon since W&M lobbied hard for them to be included in CAA.

The CAA as previously constituted was damn near perfect for W&M. Richmond, VCU, GMU, ODU and JMU (assumed) leaving the CAA makes W&M an outlier. The question is do they go north or south with an existing conference, or try to create a better conference for them going forward (CAA or otherwise) as the landscape changes.

Geographically there are historical opponents of similar make-ups both north and south. Being in a conference without many of the VA schools as the previously constituted CAA increases costs through increased travel and will require hard choices. Many of W&M's best sports are non revenue sports. Not sure where it will go, but red shirts and to a lesser extent AI complicate the PL decision.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Apparently, the PL presidents disagree, because "if [their] situation with the CAA were to change, W&M is at the top of the Patriot League's list of potential new members.", adding for good measure that the "Patriot League wanted to be sure that W&M knows they are an option."

Yes, of course. But Carolyn Femovich doesn't post on AGS. At least I don't think she does.

[Doc QB]

Red shirting is very important to W&M as its football model is predicated on bringing in many quality walk-ons, red shirting them and giving scholarships down the road as they develop athletically and academically. There are currently two of these preferred walk-ons on NFL rosters.

I think the emphasis on a robust walk-on program developing talent may be a bit overstated as a focus of redshirting...developing scholarship caliber players over the course of five years is what drives a competitive advantage for the Tribe, not the few diamonds in the rough you generate. A substantial number of 23 yr old seniors in the system for five years is only going to help the program for sure.

And as an aside, I see no reason why the PL cannot do the same, whether or not you have a grad school or not. These days, finishing in four years is tough enough at these schools, athlete or general population, for your primary undergraduate degree. With semesters away, internships, double majors, four years is not the only path anymore. Most athletes do not take the maximum course load in the fall, in season. I found at LU, spring was actually harder, with four days a week weight training, wed agility drills in Rausch, and Sat am dawn patrol for the same. Then Spring ball. Grades were actually worse in Spring. So you are then left with summers to catch up and stay on track to graduate in four yrs. If you knew from the outset that you could finish in 4.5 or five yrs on scholarship to complete your degree...problem solved. The scholarship limits remain the same, regardless. If you have a bunch of fifth year seniors, you have fewer scholarships or offer the next class. The numbers are not that hard to work out. The difference is in some schools generally redshirting the whole class as a manner of practice annually, as occurs in the CAA schools. With the PL, a "pan-reshirting" plan may not be acceptable, but in some way could be easily accomodated or adopted.

[LUHawker]

xtwocentsx -

Despite being an "original" Patriot League member (for about fifteen minutes) William and Mary will not now, and will never in the future, re-join the league. This is because


1. Its alumni and fans will continue to complain that the PL constitutes an emasculating, belittling nosedive in athletic quality across the board and an abandonment of all that the Tribe holds dear. Even if PL teams were to beat W&M consistently in football and in other sports (though such match-ups remain few) I doubt this view would change. As is pervasive throughout much of higher education today, inchoate perception and visceral reflex bests numbers, facts and historical context.

2. Alumni and fans aside, W&M as an institution really doesn't want to be here. Yes, it discussed what to do if the CAA collapses (as did every other CAA member, I'm sure). But would anyone really believe the obligatory "really excited to become a member . . . " press release were it to happen? Compare W&M's PL-phobia to Boston University, which sought PL membership so doggedly that it started a men's lacrosse program just so it could join. What does it say when someone goes to the trouble of a FoIA request out of fear that William & Mary might be considering Patriot League membership? "I'll put a stop to this right now . . . "

3. William & Mary would not necessarily receive a warm PL embrace if it put terms and conditions on PL football-only membership (about redshirting, academic index, roster size, etc.) if CAA football collapses and it has nowhere else to play football. Maybe just park football here for a little while until a better off comes along? You're either in, or you're not. And if you're in, it's for keeps. In this regard, maybe the Big South would be a much better option for the Tribe.

4. Popular sentiment notwithstanding, Terry Driscoll probably knows that the Tribe wouldn't do very well in the Patriot League outside of football (where they'd have a shot at second or third place in the PL standings). Were full league membership (not just football) to be considered, W&M would be last and a perennial bottom-dweller in men's basketball. Its participation would damage the league's basketball RPI and jeopardize its tournament seeding. Men's soccer would fall to sixth or seventh place in the PL (behind American, Loyola, Navy, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate and possibly Lehigh). Women's soccer might fare better - possibly third in the league, but women's lacrosse would fall to fifth or sixth in the PL. Volleyball would be fifth, at best. The Tribe's highly-touted field hockey team would fall to fourth or fifth (behind Boston U., American, Lafayette and Bucknell). Only baseball would have a clear shot at a title, competing against Holy Cross and Army.

William & Mary has no men's lacrosse team (a premiere sport in the Patriot League) and it has no softball team. That does not help the PL.

So, regardless of how W&M Mary "feels" about it, the Tribe just wouldn't bring a whole lot to the PL table aside from a middle-of-the-pack football team that doesn't want to be here. Anyone disagree?

Solid analysis. I agree with all your points. As much as W&M looks like a fit on the surface and would generally enhance the overall stature of the league from perception standpoint, I agree that W&M doesn't seem to really want the PL and I'd rather not have a reluctant member. Better to be wanted by the girl next door than shunned by the "supermodel".

[RichH2]

Solid analysis. I agree with all your points. As much as W&M looks like a fit on the surface and would generally enhance the overall stature of the league from perception standpoint, I agree that W&M doesn't seem to really want the PL and I'd rather not have a reluctant member. Better to be wanted by the girl next door than shunned by the "supermodel".

Both comments well said.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the emphasis on a robust walk-on program developing talent may be a bit overstated as a focus of redshirting...developing scholarship caliber players over the course of five years is what drives a competitive advantage for the Tribe, not the few diamonds in the rough you generate. A substantial number of 23 yr old seniors in the system for five years is only going to help the program for sure.

And as an aside, I see no reason why the PL cannot do the same, whether or not you have a grad school or not. These days, finishing in four years is tough enough at these schools, athlete or general population, for your primary undergraduate degree. With semesters away, internships, double majors, four years is not the only path anymore. Most athletes do not take the maximum course load in the fall, in season. I found at LU, spring was actually harder, with four days a week weight training, wed agility drills in Rausch, and Sat am dawn patrol for the same. Then Spring ball. Grades were actually worse in Spring. So you are then left with summers to catch up and stay on track to graduate in four yrs. If you knew from the outset that you could finish in 4.5 or five yrs on scholarship to complete your degree...problem solved. The scholarship limits remain the same, regardless. If you have a bunch of fifth year seniors, you have fewer scholarships or offer the next class. The numbers are not that hard to work out. The difference is in some schools generally redshirting the whole class as a manner of practice annually, as occurs in the CAA schools. With the PL, a "pan-reshirting" plan may not be acceptable, but in some way could be easily accomodated or adopted.

... which is making me think about writing a blog posting on resshirting.

[Franks Tanks]

... which is making me think about writing a blog posting on resshirting.

And don't forget that a redshirt is usually only an extra semester. Really motivated student-athletes at say Penn State are sometimes working on their masters by their 5th year due to the fact that most take a lot of classes in the summer, but most are still finishing up their bachelors at that point.

Point is that the lack of grad schools is often used as an excuse for no red-shirting, and that is valid to an extent, but we are talking about one extra semester. Most football players are not in grad school, and are talking 2-3 classes in the last semster (just to stay eligible) and finish up their last season. We could easily do that, but I think there will be faculty pushback at most of the PL schools.

[Bogus Megapardus]

School tradition is to play up vs. better funded, more competitive opponents, and it shows in W&M w/l records.

This seems to underscore the irony of much of the ongoing discussion of this topic. The entire Patriot League was created as a compilation of over-achieving liberal arts and engineering colleges. Given their comparatively miniscule size, PL members have "played up" throughout their history. That (along with the league-wide academic requirements) really is what distinguishes the core of the PL. The entire league always has seemed to some to be kind of a Division I outlier (although it really isn't).

W&M would be the second largest institution in the PL were it to become a member - newcomer Boston U. now is the largest. It would be the largest of three public schools, and it would be the largest (by far) football school in the league.

William & Mary fans and alums might take for granted an immediate transformation of the Tribe's W/L record across the board - in all sports - were it to "play down" in the Patriot League. I suspect that most W&M fans assume that the Tribe would win league titles every year in each sport in which it participated. Certainly that would be unchallenging and dull and contrary to a tradition of playing up against better funded, more competitive, opponents. Given that understanding, I certainly would not want to join the PL were I a William & Mary fan.

[Bogus Megapardus]

"[M]y impression is that [the Patriot League] doesn’t have the same caliber varsity athletics as the CAA"








- W. Taylor Reveley III, President, The College of William & Mary



Discuss.

[Go...gate]

"[M]y impression is that [the Patriot League] doesn’t have the same caliber varsity athletics as the CAA"








- W. Taylor Reveley III, President, The College of William & Mary

Discuss.

I'd like to look at W & M's records and array of opponents to be fully informed, but my thinking is that he has overstated things a bit. Does W & M think of itself as "ACC Lite" in athletics?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

"[M]y impression is that [the Patriot League] doesn’t have the same caliber varsity athletics as the CAA"








- W. Taylor Reveley III, President, The College of William & Mary


Discuss.

I chuckled a bit. Football will remain strong but there's no doubt the PL can challenge them. They have in the past without schollies.

The hoops side of things in the CAA looks pretty bleak. If the Tribe can't make the tournament now they might as well drop the sport.

Is W&M consistently good in anything? Crew perhaps? xdontknowx

[RichH2]

OK, academic discusion xrolleyesx,( no ,I wont apologize for the pun),W&M as all sports member, not really very competitive, cept perhaps for baseball,so not a + for PL. Football, certainly would most years be in top 3-4 w/o shirting.
Q for Tribe do they greyshirt?

Doc's analysis IMO correct as to possible adaptations which I agree could be done painlessly. Medical only unnecessarily restrictive. Real issue is whether change is ecessary now. Dont think so. Only goal for PL is to build it and they will come scenario, Full 60 for a few yrs will tell the tale. I am more interested with how well we do rather than expanding. Future events will determine expansion or contraction. GU dropping ot Fordham moving out?? CAA shifting again? None of which can we predict. We only control how well we do in preparing and upgrading schedules and rosters.

[Sader87]

My gut tells me that W&M (along with Richmond and Elon) will join a reconstituted SoCon when the CAA ultimately implodes (as it exists) as a football conference. This is when Villanova will join the PL as a football member (if they keep football).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/07/bill-and-mary-and-their-flirtation-with.html

I look at the "Shades Of 48" Papers and put them into context.

Despite what Bogie tells you, this was no idle thought by the president of W&M and AD Terry Driscoll.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

My gut tells me that W&M (along with Richmond and Elon) will join a reconstituted SoCon when the CAA ultimately implodes (as it exists) as a football conference. This is when Villanova will join the PL as a football member (if they keep football).

Or maybe the A10 will once again sponsor football....

Villanova is really the only school I want in the PL. Their proximity to LU, LC, GU and FU would, imo, strengthen the league over time and provide a modest attendance boost.

[DFW HOYA]

My gut tells me that W&M (along with Richmond and Elon) will join a reconstituted SoCon when the CAA ultimately implodes (as it exists) as a football conference. This is when Villanova will join the PL as a football member (if they keep football).

Why would they want to? And will people stop referring to "if they keep football" at Villanova, which has shown no signs of doing otherwise?

We need to put down the what-ifs and conspiracy theories. What would LFN say about a group of schools talking like this:

Villanova
Delaware
W&M
Richmond
Georgetown
Fordham

[Sader87]

Why would they want to? And will people stop referring to "if they keep football" at Villanova, which has shown no signs of doing otherwise?

Football has always been a "shaky proposition" on the Main Line. Despite winning the NC, I'd contend they have less of a "football culture" i.e. financial support, attendance, local following etc than many of the PL schools.

Institutionally, they would fit much more closely with the schools in the PL than a reconstituted A-10/Yankee Conference/American East etc football conference.

[LeadBolt]

This seems to underscore the irony of much of the ongoing discussion of this topic. The entire Patriot League was created as a compilation of over-achieving liberal arts and engineering colleges. Given their comparatively miniscule size, PL members have "played up" throughout their history. That (along with the league-wide academic requirements) really is what distinguishes the core of the PL. The entire league always has seemed to some to be kind of a Division I outlier (although it really isn't).

W&M would be the second largest institution in the PL were it to become a member - newcomer Boston U. now is the largest. It would be the largest of three public schools, and it would be the largest (by far) football school in the league.

William & Mary fans and alums might take for granted an immediate transformation of the Tribe's W/L record across the board - in all sports - were it to "play down" in the Patriot League. I suspect that most W&M fans assume that the Tribe would win league titles every year in each sport in which it participated. Certainly that would be unchallenging and dull and contrary to a tradition of playing up against better funded, more competitive, opponents. Given that understanding, I certainly would not want to join the PL were I a William & Mary fan.

See bolded statement above. No one who has been a W&M for very long would make such an assumption. W&M has too much history to the contrary and changes in the schools W&M has competed against in its various league/independent status over the last 40 years.

Some observations about the redshirt issue raised in earlier posts: 1). About half the freshmen on the W&M football roster each year are paying their own way during their red shirt year and many of those beyond.; 2). It does tend to winnow out those who don't care for the additional physical rigor both academically and athletically that comes in the HS/College transition without hurting the number in that class as much as it would otherwise; 3). Not having a grad school is not a reason not too allow red-shirting, but rather an excuse as was pointed out earlier; 4). Playing in the PL is a pretty good match W&M is, but is perceived to be a hindrance in scheduling the handful of ACC, SEC, etc. foes they schedule each year in many sports; 5). PL is not a problem from an institution or competitive basis for W&M, but rather on the basis of the rules and perceptions listed above; 6). The issues W&M has with PL are fixable by the PL with a stroke of a pen, if W&M means enough to PL; 7). I don't know if W&M still has a club lacrosse team or not and if they would consider upgrading.

[Bogus Megapardus]

My gut tells me that W&M (along with Richmond and Elon) will join a reconstituted SoCon when the CAA ultimately implodes (as it exists) as a football conference. This is when Villanova will join the PL as a football member (if they keep football).

I agree with Sader87.

[RichH2]

See bolded statement above. No one who has been a W&M for very long would make such an assumption. W&M has too much history to the contrary and changes in the schools W&M has competed against in its various league/independent status over the last 40 years.

Some observations about the redshirt issue raised in earlier posts: 1). About half the freshmen on the W&M football roster each year are paying their own way during their red shirt year and many of those beyond.; 2). It does tend to winnow out those who don't care for the additional physical rigor both academically and athletically that comes in the HS/College transition without hurting the number in that class as much as it would otherwise; 3). Not having a grad school is not a reason not too allow red-shirting, but rather an excuse as was pointed out earlier; 4). Playing in the PL is a pretty good match W&M is, but is perceived to be a hindrance in scheduling the handful of ACC, SEC, etc. foes they schedule each year in many sports; 5). PL is not a problem from an institution or competitive basis for W&M, but rather on the basis of the rules and perceptions listed above; 6). The issues W&M has with PL are fixable by the PL with a stroke of a pen, if W&M means enough to PL; 7). I don't know if W&M still has a club lacrosse team or not and if they would consider upgrading.

Well said and pretty much what most of us have benn saying. We'll see how this plays out because I doubt this dance is over yet. 2-3 yrs down the road we'll have a much clearer idea of direction and options.

[RichH2]

Or maybe the A10 will once again sponsor football....

Villanova is really the only school I want in the PL. Their proximity to LU, LC, GU and FU would, imo, strengthen the league over time and provide a modest attendance boost.
Always my first choice. Talley???? When does he leave

[DFW HOYA]

Football has always been a "shaky proposition" on the Main Line. Despite winning the NC, I'd contend they have less of a "football culture" i.e. financial support, attendance, local following etc than many of the PL schools.

Villanova's 2011-12 financial support was larger than six of the seven PL schools by budget.

Villanova's 2012 attendance was larger than four of the seven PL schools.

And what is the "football culture" at Fordham? Or Bucknell?

[Sader87]

Villanova's 2011-12 financial support was larger than six of the seven PL schools by budget.
Villanova's 2012 attendance was larger than four of the seven PL schools.

And what is the "football culture" at Fordham? Or Bucknell?

As they say on WEEI: "Yer makin' myyy cahhhssee!!!"

If Villanova, a recent National Champion and perennial play-off contender, is outdrawn by 3 Patriot League schools, that isn't making a terribly strong case for support of football at Villanova.

[RichH2]

I think they were comparing Nova to CAA counterparts not PL schools. Think Nova would fit very well, just not going to happen now

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It sure seems to me that the PL leadership were a LOT more interested in W&M as an all-sports member than Villanova as an affiliate. Everything in the Shades of 48 papers seems to point to this. Where would football-only Villanova fit into a Richmond/W&M anchored southern wing of the PL?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Villanova's 2011-12 financial support was larger than six of the seven PL schools by budget.

Villanova's 2012 attendance was larger than four of the seven PL schools.

And what is the "football culture" at Fordham? Or Bucknell?

Villanova's average attendance is better than some probably believe. With that said, their attendance is really feast or famine. Some games might bring in 10k while others are lucky to break 4k.

[Go Green]

. With that said, their attendance is really feast or famine. Some games might bring in 10k while others are lucky to break 4k.

You've just described most of the Ivy.

:D

[DFW HOYA]

If Villanova, a recent National Champion and perennial play-off contender, is outdrawn by 3 Patriot League schools, that isn't making a terribly strong case for support of football at Villanova.

No, it actually does.

Here were Villanova's attndance figures last season. Note the discrepancy.

Fordham...3,717
URI...10,503
Richmond...7,117
Towson...7,757
JMU... 6,657

Absent Fordham, Villanova drew 8,003 a game without Delaware and having already played on the road against Penn and Temple (which drew a combined 46,512). What PL teams average 8,000 a game?

[RichH2]

It sure seems to me that the PL leadership were a LOT more interested in W&M as an all-sports member than Villanova as an affiliate. Everything in the Shades of 48 papers seems to point to this. Where would football-only Villanova fit into a Richmond/W&M anchored southern wing of the PL?

Perhaps but all those emails were from W&M people and ltd to their point of view. We dont know PL's interest or lack thereof in Nova back then.

[Franks Tanks]

No, it actually does.

Here were Villanova's attndance figures last season. Note the discrepancy.

Fordham...3,717
URI...10,503
Richmond...7,117
Towson...7,757
JMU... 6,657

Absent Fordham, Villanova drew 8,003 a game without Delaware and having alrady played on the road locally against Penn and Temple. What PL teams average 8,000 a game?

Lafayette has averaged 8k per game, even one year when we didn't host Lehigh. I think Holy Cross has been doing pretty well lately attendance wise as well. I believe they are averaging 7-8k per game the last few years.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

No, it actually does.

Here were Villanova's attndance figures last season. Note the discrepancy.

Fordham...3,717
URI...10,503
Richmond...7,117
Towson...7,757
JMU... 6,657

Absent Fordham, Villanova drew 8,003 a game without Delaware and having already played on the road against Penn and Temple (which drew a combined 46,512). What PL teams average 8,000 a game?

Lehigh, Lafayette and HC have all averaged over 8k recently. Even with the recent decline in attendance, Lehigh breaks the 8k figure (just about?) every year.

[Sader87]

No, it actually does.

Here were Villanova's attndance figures last season. Note the discrepancy.

Fordham...3,717
URI...10,503
Richmond...7,117
Towson...7,757
JMU... 6,657

Absent Fordham, Villanova drew 8,003 a game without Delaware and having already played on the road against Penn and Temple (which drew a combined 46,512). What PL teams average 8,000 a game?

HC, Lehigh and Lafayette most years and I'd contend they will go up a bit (maybe a fair amount) more once the scholarship teams become more competitive etc.

I hope Nova doesn't drop football but it has already done so relatively recently (1980), there doesn't seem to be a huge alumni/student/local following and like GTown, football has always been sort of the "poor cousin" to basketball there. I just don't see it growing much more if it hasn't already done so with its recent success.

[DFW HOYA]

I hope Nova doesn't drop football but it has already done so relatively recently (1980), there doesn't seem to be a huge alumni/student/local following and like GTown, football has always been sort of the "poor cousin" to basketball there. I just don't see it growing much more if it hasn't already done so with its recent success.

Saying "I hope Nova doesn't drop football" is a leading question. The decision to do so was reversed a little more than a year later, the fundraising followed to get back to varsity in three years, and the Wildcats have achieved great things in the intervening years.

The problem Villanova and Georgetown both face is the lack of traditional institutions within its schedule--many of the Big East schools which a generation of fans grew up on are gone, and those that remain are not playing football. It's tough to sell a Villanova fan base raised on UConn and Pitt that Towson or URI is a must see (it's not), any more than trying to sell Georgetown students that Lafayette or Holy Cross is a big deal (and it isn't to them either) when students still talk about Syracuse and Notre Dame.

Villanova was thisclose to moving to I-A football and they got squeezed by the ESPN/ACC machinations. But that's not to say the program is on life support--and yes, new facilities and better opponents can help. A show of hands here who, five years ago, would say Old Dominion had a "football culture"?

One thing Villanova has that Georgetown does not--the ability to play better opponents. The Wildcats open at Boston College. The Hoyas get...Wagner.

[RichH2]

Interesting side note, see Big South expects to expand per Commish's statement. With whom I wonder?

[Sader87]

Saying "I hope Nova doesn't drop football" is a leading question. The decision to do so was reversed a little more than a year later, the fundraising followed to get back to varsity in three years, and the Wildcats have achieved great things in the intervening years.

The problem Villanova and Georgetown both face is the lack of traditional institutions within its schedule--many of the Big East schools which a generation of fans grew up on are gone, and those that remain are not playing football. It's tough to sell a Villanova fan base raised on UConn and Pitt that Towson or URI is a must see (it's not), any more than trying to sell Georgetown students that Lafayette or Holy Cross is a big deal (and it isn't to them either) when students still talk about Syracuse and Notre Dame.

Villanova was thisclose to moving to I-A football and they got squeezed by the ESPN/ACC machinations. But that's not to say the program is on life support--and yes, new facilities and better opponents can help. A show of hands here who, five years ago, would say Old Dominion had a "football culture"?

One thing Villanova has that Georgetown does not--the ability to play better opponents. The Wildcats open at Boston College. The Hoyas get...Wagner.

Again, this is why I wonder if Nova will continue pouring $$$ into a program that not that many alumni/students/fans etc really care about to a great extent.

Football, for whatever reason, has just never "caught on" at Villanova...even going back to the 50's, 60's and 70's.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Again, this is why I wonder if Nova will continue pouring $$$ into a program that not that many alumni/students/fans etc really care about to a great extent.

Football, for whatever reason, has just never "caught on" at Villanova...even going back to the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Or at Temple or La Salle.....or St. Joe's or Drexel for that matter....

I think the Big 5 (historically) and college basketball in general just mean A LOT more to these schools. With that said, football isn't quite the red headed step child on the Mainline as you're making it out to be...

[Sader87]

Whither Villanova football? And this involves W&M how???? No league's fans can twist and turn a thread's topic here like the PL can....xlolx

[GannonFan]

Villanova's average attendance is better than some probably believe. With that said, their attendance is really feast or famine. Some games might bring in 10k while others are lucky to break 4k.

Outside of the Delaware game every other year and Parent's Day, nova's paid attendance is every bit as dismal as people make it out to be. There's enough ticket vouchers and comps that get sent out to the local community (schools, organizations, etc) that a good portion of those who even show up for the small crowd nova games likely didn't pay a dime to get in. Basically, if you pay for a ticket to a non-Delaware or non-Parents Day nova football game you are in the distinct minority of the small number of people around you.

[ccd494]

Whither Villanova football? And this involves W&M how???? No league's fans can twist and turn a thread's topic here like the PL can....xlolx

I like how the PL fans have suddenly gone from begging and pleading for ANY expansion in football to being able to poo-poo William & Mary just for a couple perceived slights in internal Tribe discussions.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I like how the PL fans have suddenly gone from begging and pleading for ANY expansion in football to being able to poo-poo William & Mary just for a couple perceived slights in internal Tribe discussions.

Blame Bogie. I do. ;)

[Bogus Megapardus]

No league's fans can twist and turn a thread's topic here like the PL can....xlolx

'Tis why we're paid the Big Bucks. xcoolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Blame Bogie. I do. ;)

I try my best, LFN - I'm truly honored by the perception of influence that I don't have. xpopcornx

[tribe_pride]

xtwocentsx -

Despite being an "original" Patriot League member (for about fifteen minutes) William and Mary will not now, and will never in the future, re-join the league. This is because


4. Popular sentiment notwithstanding, Terry Driscoll probably knows that the Tribe wouldn't do very well in the Patriot League outside of football (where they'd have a shot at second or third place in the PL standings). Were full league membership (not just football) to be considered, W&M would be last and a perennial bottom-dweller in men's basketball. Its participation would damage the league's basketball RPI and jeopardize its tournament seeding. Men's soccer would fall to sixth or seventh place in the PL (behind American, Loyola, Navy, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate and possibly Lehigh). Women's soccer might fare better - possibly third in the league, but women's lacrosse would fall to fifth or sixth in the PL. Volleyball would be fifth, at best. The Tribe's highly-touted field hockey team would fall to fourth or fifth (behind Boston U., American, Lafayette and Bucknell). Only baseball would have a clear shot at a title, competing against Holy Cross and Army.

William & Mary has no men's lacrosse team (a premiere sport in the Patriot League) and it has no softball team. That does not help the PL.

So, regardless of how W&M Mary "feels" about it, the Tribe just wouldn't bring a whole lot to the PL table aside from a middle-of-the-pack football team that doesn't want to be here. Anyone disagree?


I chuckled a bit. Football will remain strong but there's no doubt the PL can challenge them. They have in the past without schollies.

The hoops side of things in the CAA looks pretty bleak. If the Tribe can't make the tournament now they might as well drop the sport.

Is W&M consistently good in anything? Crew perhaps? xdontknowx

What's with the slamming of W&M athletics? It's not just you on this thread but you are the latest I saw. W&M has more CAA titles than any other school and the CAA has been pretty successful at the non-revenue sports

As for basketball, while we haven't been great, here is how we would have placed in the Patriot League (using RPI at realtimerpi.com) over the last 10 years:
2013 - 7 out of 9
2012 - 7 out of 9
2011 - 5 out of 9
2010 - 1 out of 9 included wins at Wake Forest and Maryland that year
2009 - 4 out of 9
2008 - 3 out of 9
2007 - 4 out of 9
2006 - 6 out of 9
2005 - 7 out of 9
2004 - 6 out of 9

Note that I used 9 teams as opposed to 8 since I am including W&M. So while the last 2 years haven't been great (and the team has felt worse than this), we would be middle of the pack generally in PL basketball especially if you look at the last 7 years instead of 10. Last year's team was young so look for them to improve this year. And W&M never would have been last or a permanent bottom dweller as described by Bogus based on the last 10 years.

Football over the years, we have been stronger than some have been crediting us as well.

In the non-revenue sports, we are typically better than at basketball. Baseball did well this year and even earned an at-large bid to the tourney and in Men's and Women's XC and Track, tennis and soccer, we have been strong for years (men's tennis probably less than the others, but have made the NCAAs in each of the other sports a number of times).

While Bogus complimented our "highly-touted" Field Hockey team, that team has struggled for years so I am not sure where he got that from. Between that and the Bball analysis, it makes me doubt any of his analysis of any of the sports outside football.

Nobody from W&M said here that we would dominate the Patriot League in all sports and to knock down W&M athletics as poor is ignoring the facts.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Playing in the PL is a pretty good match W&M is, but is perceived to be a hindrance in scheduling the handful of ACC, SEC, etc. foes they schedule each year in many sports

Have you ever taken a look at last year's PL OOC basketball, lacrosse, soccer and field hockey opponents? Stanford, Kentucky, Maryland, North Carolina, Penn State, Ohio State, Iowa, Gonzaga, USC, Cal, Michigan, Rutgers, Boston College, Wake Forest, Rice, Arizona, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Baylor, Syracuse, UConn, Duke . . . . not to mention all eight Ivies, of course.

You might be surprised. Apparently it IS your grandfather's Patriot League, once again.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What's with the slamming of W&M athletics?

Meh. If it ends up that, some day, you have to come begging, we don't wantchya anyhow. xrolleyesx

[tribe_pride]

Meh. If it ends up that, some day, you have to come begging, we don't wantchya anyhow. xrolleyesx

That's a completely different issue than I was addressing in my post.

I could understand not wanting to take a school that is begging for a new home but that is not what I addressed in my post at all so I am not sure how that's relevant to my post at all.

I was talking about the quality of W&M sports as compared to what you and certain others have stated.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

What's with the slamming of W&M athletics? It's not just you on this thread but you are the latest I saw. W&M has more CAA titles than any other school and the CAA has been pretty successful at the non-revenue sports

As for basketball, while we haven't been great, here is how we would have placed in the Patriot League (using RPI at realtimerpi.com) over the last 10 years:
2013 - 7 out of 9
2012 - 7 out of 9
2011 - 5 out of 9
2010 - 1 out of 9 included wins at Wake Forest and Maryland that year
2009 - 4 out of 9
2008 - 3 out of 9
2007 - 4 out of 9
2006 - 6 out of 9
2005 - 7 out of 9
2004 - 6 out of 9

Note that I used 9 teams as opposed to 8 since I am including W&M. So while the last 2 years haven't been great (and the team has felt worse than this), we would be middle of the pack generally in PL basketball especially if you look at the last 7 years instead of 10. Last year's team was young so look for them to improve this year. And W&M never would have been last or a permanent bottom dweller as described by Bogus based on the last 10 years.

Football over the years, we have been stronger than some have been crediting us as well.

In the non-revenue sports, we are typically better than at basketball. Baseball did well this year and even earned an at-large bid to the tourney and in Men's and Women's XC and Track, tennis and soccer, we have been strong for years (men's tennis probably less than the others, but have made the NCAAs in each of the other sports a number of times).

While Bogus complimented our "highly-touted" Field Hockey team, that team has struggled for years so I am not sure where he got that from. Between that and the Bball analysis, it makes me doubt any of his analysis of any of the sports outside football.

Nobody from W&M said here that we would dominate the Patriot League in all sports and to knock down W&M athletics as poor is ignoring the facts.

William & Mary, like Northwestern, has never been to the NCAA tournament. That's a hard stat to overcome when you're talking about hoops. Your 2010 team was very solid but they were left on the outside looking in.

[Bogus Megapardus]

ignoring the facts

The constant, non-stop, ubiquitous belittlement of Patriot League athletics, both on this board and elsewhere - particularly by CAA members' fans - habitually does the same. My reaction reflects back to the original post and the material posted in the Shades of 48 blog. As an unabashed Patriot League enthusiast (just ask Sader87) I'm loathe to allow misguided pejorative, even if indeliberate, to sit unaddressed.

I think of it as my calling on AGS.

The caveat is that we in the PL are at liberty to bash one another relentlessly. And we do - 'cause we're family.

[Fordham]

No, it actually does.

Here were Villanova's attndance figures last season. Note the discrepancy.

Fordham...3,717
URI...10,503
Richmond...7,117
Towson...7,757
JMU... 6,657

Absent Fordham, Villanova drew 8,003 a game without Delaware and having already played on the road against Penn and Temple (which drew a combined 46,512). What PL teams average 8,000 a game?
We travel well :D





xtroublex

[Bogus Megapardus]

We travel well

Hmm . . . a bid to join CAA football, Fordham?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I was talking about the quality of W&M sports as compared to what you and certain others have stated.

So was I, actually.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

This thread has been a mildly entertaining read, but it is an exercise in futility. CAA Football isn't going anywhere. Even if JMU disappears.

Had Stony Brook, Albany and Elon not been added, it would be a different story. All 3 were quality additions.

[tribe_pride]

The constant, non-stop, ubiquitous belittlement of Patriot League athletics, both on this board and elsewhere - particularly by CAA members' fans - habitually does the same. My reaction reflects back to the original post and the material posted in the Shades of 48 blog. As an unabashed Patriot League enthusiast (just ask Sader87) I'm loathe to allow misguided pejorative, even if indeliberate, to sit unaddressed.

I think of it as my calling on AGS.

The caveat is that we in the PL are at liberty to bash one another relentlessly. And we do - 'cause we're family.

Not sure if you read the whole Shades article but there was very little bashing of the Patriot League and showed that W&M was very complimentary of it. There was 1 sentence out of the whole article that made PL look down (specifically talking football and not other sports for the most part) and it was talking about the leagues as a whole and not W&M compared to the Patriot League. And in general, it was a fair statement considering how CAA football teams have done in the playoffs over the last 5-10 years compared to the Patriot League. Doesn't say that PL teams haven't been able to compete just that the CAA teams generally have done better as a whole than the Patriot in football.

In addition, most of the belittling posts are not from W&M people. For the most part, I believe we have stayed out of that. The one thing I have seen here from W&M posters is the impression regarding OOC scheduling. While it may or may not be true, it's a concern and those from PL have responded showing how some of the impressions are unfounded.

If you had presented a fair analysis of W&M sports, I wouldn't have done my post but you did and it was not an accurate representation of W&M sports.

You said: "As an unabashed Patriot League enthusiast (just ask Sader87) I'm loathe to allow misguided pejorative, even if indeliberate, to sit unaddressed" but then you had a misguided pejorative post yourself about W&M. It did not sit unaddressed.

[Fordham]

Hmm . . . a bid to join CAA football, Fordham?

Did I really need to put an emoticon in there to let you know it was a response to DFW's review of 'Nova home game attendance?

(edited it for you)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Did I really need to put an emoticon in there to let you know it was a response to DFW's review of 'Nova home game attendance?

Sheesh! That's a relief. Fordham is the biggest reason why Patriot League football now has scholarships. As far as I'm concerned, Fordham ought to be the #1 target to re-join the PL as a full member (I know, I know, A-10 basketball). But as I've said before, it stinks to high heaven that the Rams have to wait until 2014 to be eligible for the PL football title.

Let no one dispute that Fordham is an honored and valued PL football member. A lot of fans (including me) can't help still thinking of the Rams as a full Patriot League member anyhow.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This thread has been a mildly entertaining read, but it is an exercise in futility. CAA Football isn't going anywhere. Even if JMU disappears.



Spiders and Tribe have to be in the same football conference, given their rivalry. So I agree - CAA football will remain, and so will W&M.

[CrusaderBob]

No, it actually does.

Here were Villanova's attndance figures last season. Note the discrepancy.

Fordham...3,717
URI...10,503
Richmond...7,117
Towson...7,757
JMU... 6,657

Absent Fordham, Villanova drew 8,003 a game without Delaware and having already played on the road against Penn and Temple (which drew a combined 46,512). What PL teams average 8,000 a game?

Holy Cherry-picking-statistics-to-make-a-bad-point Batman!

And absent URI, Villanova averaged just 6,312 - middle of the pack Patriot League to be sure.

Regardless, I'm not sure either number disproves the point that Villanova doesn't draw well given that the CAA averaged 12,000+ in 2012 and Villanova averaged about 7,100 in a national championship year (2009) and 8,500 the year after (2010).

[Pard4Life]

No, it actually does.

Here were Villanova's attndance figures last season. Note the discrepancy.

Fordham...3,717
URI...10,503
Richmond...7,117
Towson...7,757
JMU... 6,657

Absent Fordham, Villanova drew 8,003 a game without Delaware and having already played on the road against Penn and Temple (which drew a combined 46,512). What PL teams average 8,000 a game?

Here's why the Fordham number is so low... attendance is relative sometimes:

"The game kicked off a few minutes after 8 p.m. and was delayed two hours due to earlier inclement weather in the area ... The original start time of 6 p.m. was pushed back early in the afternoon."

Remember, it was the same storm system that disrupted LC-WM

[Pard4Life]

Fordham should have a rivalry with Villanova... obvious reasons.

[Go...gate]

The constant, non-stop, ubiquitous belittlement of Patriot League athletics, both on this board and elsewhere - particularly by CAA members' fans - habitually does the same. My reaction reflects back to the original post and the material posted in the Shades of 48 blog. As an unabashed Patriot League enthusiast (just ask Sader87) I'm loathe to allow misguided pejorative, even if indeliberate, to sit unaddressed.

I think of it as my calling on AGS.

The caveat is that we in the PL are at liberty to bash one another relentlessly. And we do - 'cause we're family.

Indeed.

[Go...gate]

Sheesh! That's a relief. Fordham is the biggest reason why Patriot League football now has scholarships. As far as I'm concerned, Fordham ought to be the #1 target to re-join the PL as a full member (I know, I know, A-10 basketball). But as I've said before, it stinks to high heaven that the Rams have to wait until 2014 to be eligible for the PL football title.

Let no one dispute that Fordham is an honored and valued PL football member. A lot of fans (including me) can't help still thinking of the Rams as a full Patriot League member anyhow.

Agreed.

[ngineer]

Keep Bucknell north, delete VMI, and add Wofford and Furman. They don't belong in the SoCon and that conference is having it's problems.

[RichH2]

Despite massive guilt pangs, PL twitter put a teaser up about a major announcement for this afternoon. No idea what sport. Anyone have a clue?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Despite massive guilt pangs, PL twitter put a teaser up about a major announcement for this afternoon. No idea what sport. Anyone have a clue?

" . . . very exciting development for 2013-14 and beyond!" it says.

My guess is renewal/extension/expansion of the CBS TV deal in conjunction with network broadcast of #150. Other guesses before post time?

Only other possibility is that Georgetown will be adding a hot dog cart and a porta-john by next season.

[RichH2]

Maybe but already had an announcement on CBS contract. From 2013-14 comment guess not just #150. I would go with GU or PL changing our logo. Yup

[Go...gate]

The PL TV contract has been given to FIOS.......

[Go...gate]

Any chance that Loyola might add a football prorgam?

[CFBfan]

" . . . very exciting development for 2013-14 and beyond!" it says.

My guess is renewal/extension/expansion of the CBS TV deal in conjunction with network broadcast of #150. Other guesses before post time?

Only other possibility is that Georgetown will be adding a hot dog cart and a porta-john by next season.

xhurrayx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

When is PL media day?

[DFW HOYA]

From 2013-14 comment guess not just #150. I would go with GU or PL changing our logo. Yup

Georgetown is not changing anyone's logo. xlolx

If it's being promoted on Twitter and nowhere else, it's bound to underwhelm: a new PL Instagram account or a sponsorship deal, something like that.


"Only other possibility is that Georgetown will be adding a hot dog cart and a porta-john by next season.

Hot dog carts are illegal in Georgetown beyond a 50 foot perimeter bordering two blocks along the tourist area of Wisconsin Avenue. Sadly, I am not making this up.

[CFBfan]

it's sad that the PL has 10 members and only FIVE play football (in the PL). Really need at least 1 more (maybe FU for starters??)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Other wagers? Winner is eligible to purchase two Club-Level Deluxe Suite tickets at Multi-Sport field for the Hoyas' thrilling home opener against Davidson College.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You don't think it's Bill and Mary joining.... Nah....

[cmaxwellgsu]

Keep Bucknell north, delete VMI, and add Wofford and Furman. They don't belong in the SoCon and that conference is having it's problems.

The SoCon is still many miles ahead of the PL without us and App.....ain't happening.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You don't think it's Bill and Mary joining.... Nah....

I'll wager carney2's paycheck that it has nothing to do with W&M.

Besides, we don't want 'em anyhoo . . . xcoolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'll wager carney2's paycheck that it has nothing to do with W&M.

Besides, we don't want 'em anyhoo . . . xcoolx

I won't take that wager. And not because I doubt the size of carney2's paycheck... xlolx

[RichH2]

Have we considered other sports. Expanding rowing membersip.

[RichH2]

It would be stunning if this involved W&M in any way.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Have we considered other sports. Expanding rowing membersip.

Bowling? Lawn Darts? Chess-Boxing?

A requirement that at least one transgender individual be interviewed for any open football head coach position?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Drexel will be joining the PL as an all sports member. They'll be starting football in 2015....I'm just tossing crap out there too....

[RichH2]

Scanning the bds, consensus is a new media deal.

[LUHawker]

Scanning the bds, consensus is a new media deal.
Makes sense since the teaser said for 2013-14 and beyond. League membership not likely to be able to be impacted in time for '13-14

[Pard4Life]

1) Al Jazerra network picking up games. Bogie can speak about that.
2) MSF will be bidding to host the BCS title game
3) Colgate is replacing SUNY-Ithaca in the Ivy. Lafayette declined since it would be a guarantee 1-6 record every year in football (Columbia win only)
4) Equestrian is now a sponsored sport.

Doubt it's anything to do with membership... since tweet says its affecting this year.

Probably TV deal or some sponsor/partner.

[RichH2]

nhteamer on Cross Bd nailed it Ivies will announce that they will play PL at recess.

[RichH2]

All access video feed thru PL expanded sports, and free

[Go...gate]

1) Al Jazerra network picking up games. Bogie can speak about that.
2) MSF will be bidding to host the BCS title game
3) Colgate is replacing SUNY-Ithaca in the Ivy. Lafayette declined since it would be a guarantee 1-6 record every year in football (Columbia win only)
4) Equestrian is now a sponsored sport.

Doubt it's anything to do with membership... since tweet says its affecting this year.

Probably TV deal or some sponsor/partner.

This actually would not surprise me somewhere down the line. Some PL schools (though not Colgate) have equestrian club programs, according to a family friend who is taking her daughter looking for good schools where she can also follow her passion as a young horsewoman.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This actually would not surprise me somewhere down the line. Some PL schools (though not Colgate) have equestrian club programs, according to a family friend who is taking her daughter looking for good schools where she can also follow her passion as a young horsewoman.

Pards have an excellent Equestrian program - I actually saw them last summer with the First Lady.

[RichH2]

Good deal with campusinsiders and all free. Better digital network than we've ever had before.

[DFW HOYA]

Impact for football likely limited.

http://www.patriotleague.org/genrel/072913aac.html

[wmmii]

Exploring all options and keeping the door open is very different than really acting..........very doubtful an exit from the CAA is going to happen. It is a shame that the Tribe did not take the ACC offer to join in 1970-71..........

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exploring all options and keeping the door open is very different than really acting..........very doubtful an exit from the CAA is going to happen. It is a shame that the Tribe did not take the ACC offer to join in 1970-71..........

Shhh... you'll get Sader 87 riled up again about the Big East invite! ;)

[carney2]

Pards have an excellent Equestrian program - I actually saw them last summer with the First Lady.

Horses are housed (stabled?) in the Acopian Engineering Center which is being done away with in favor of an expanded Department of Gender Bender Studies.

[Tribal]

Is W&M consistently good in anything? Crew perhaps?

We've won more CAA Championships than any other school and it's not even close. Football, XC, S&D, soccer, etc within the past few years. Our baseball team swept Ole Miss in the NCAA Regionals and progressed further than any other CAA program this past season. Our inept mens basketball program played in 2 CAA championships in recent years losing to ODU and GMU.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

We've won more CAA Championships than any other school and it's not even close. Football, XC, S&D, soccer, etc within the past few years. Our baseball team swept Ole Miss in the NCAA Regionals and progressed further than any other CAA program this past season. Our inept mens basketball program played in 2 CAA championships in recent years losing to ODU and GMU.

I can see W&M winning the the most CAA titles do to the amount of associate members in the CAA.

I did say consistently good. Football has had more losing seasons than winning ones recently (last 10 years). Basketball is well known for the fact they've NEVER been to the tournament. When you're a trivia answer because of futility it's not a good thing. Baseball obviously had a great season but is that the norm? Do they usually produce winning seasons?

[DFW HOYA]

Basketball is well known for the fact they've NEVER been to the tournament. When you're a trivia answer because of futility it's not a good thing.

Five Division I schools have never qualified for the tournament throughout its 75 year history. One of them plays in the PL.

http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/19449/ncaa-tournaments-un-fab-five-are-0-for-75

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Horses are housed (stabled?) in the Acopian Engineering Center which is being done away with in favor of an expanded Department of Gender Bender Studies.

Somewhere, Mr. Pardee is crying, flipping in his grave, or both.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Five Division I schools have never qualified for the tournament throughout its 75 year history. One of them plays in the PL.



I know it's splitting hairs, but it appears that the PL team in question once did qualify for the NCAA tournament but chose instead to play in the NIT. They can blame Mike Krzyzewski.

"It was in the 1967-68 season that Army could have been expunged from the un-Fab Five. Knight's team was 20-5 and received an invitation from the NCAA tournament, but declined in order to play in the NIT."

[LeadBolt]

I can see W&M winning the the most CAA titles do to the amount of associate members in the CAA.

I did say consistently good. Football has had more losing seasons than winning ones recently (last 10 years). Basketball is well known for the fact they've NEVER been to the tournament. When you're a trivia answer because of futility it's not a good thing. Baseball obviously had a great season but is that the norm? Do they usually produce winning seasons?

W&M has never been defined by its athletics. If the PL is looking for that type of school you should skip over us. If you just want to beat us up on this board so be it. It says more about PL fans than it does about W&M.

As Tribal has pointed out, we have some pretty good non-revenue programs and occasional flashes in the major sports. We have good academics.

We operate our athletic department on significantly less money and higher academic standards than most schools we compete with. This makes sustained dominance difficult. For the most part W&M athletics are run the right way and are truly populated by student athletes.

If you don't like us, that's fine. We aren't sitting around looking for your approval, even though we believe their is much in common.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We operate our athletic department on significantly less money and higher academic standards than most schools we compete with. This makes sustained dominance difficult. For the most part W&M athletics are run the right way and are truly populated by student athletes.

If you don't like us, that's fine. We aren't sitting around looking for your approval, even though we believe their is much in common.

If you were looking to audition for the Patriot League, that's a pretty damned fine audition tape right there.

[DFW HOYA]

Further splitting hairs, but any team with a winning record and/or a conference championship technically qualified for the post-season in those days, though neither was required to accept the offer.

The most famous example of this is Marquette, which was ranked #8 in the final 1969-70 poll with a 21-3 record, turned down the NCAA because Al McGuire got angry that the Warriors, then an independent, were not placed in the Midwest bracket. MU swept through the NIT instead, causing the NCAA to put in a rule that if you are invited to the NCAA tournament you must accept or not play any post-season at all.

In recent years, Georgetown turned down an NIT bid in 2002 for similar reasons, when then-coach Craig Esherick was told the Hoyas would be reassigned to games at Iowa and at Arizona State instead of a previously discussed first round game at Richmond. Georgetown was not offered a home game in three previous NIT appearances, which didn't help matters.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

W&M has never been defined by its athletics. If the PL is looking for that type of school you should skip over us. If you just want to beat us up on this board so be it. It says more about PL fans than it does about W&M.

As Tribal has pointed out, we have some pretty good non-revenue programs and occasional flashes in the major sports. We have good academics.

We operate our athletic department on significantly less money and higher academic standards than most schools we compete with. This makes sustained dominance difficult. For the most part W&M athletics are run the right way and are truly populated by student athletes.

If you don't like us, that's fine. We aren't sitting around looking for your approval, even though we believe their is much in common.

W&M is an awesome school academically and would be a great addition to the PL because of that. They aren't however, in demand because of their athletic prowess.

[RichH2]

If you were looking to audition for the Patriot League, that's a pretty damned fine audition tape right there.

Yup. Sadly :(,I expect to see a variety of this thread reappear seniannually for the foreseeable futurexbangxxbangxxbangx

[Dane96]

We operate our athletic department on significantly less money and higher academic standards than most schools we compete with. This makes sustained dominance difficult.

I'm not so sure I'd agree with this statement. You have a $20 million dollar athletic budget and your football team is FULLY FUNDED with an endowment, as I understand the situation. Fully-endowing a football program is unheard of at the FCS level and most of the FBS level.

[Tribal]

I can see W&M winning the the most CAA titles do to the amount of associate members in the CAA.

Full members include JMU, Towson, Delaware, Drexel, and Northeastern. We also had more championships when VCU, ODU and GMU were members. Go ahead a explain how winning more championships than ANY of those schools is somehow weak. We did that without wrestling and mens lax, btw.

Seems to me you're upset about something but show me another small public school with elite academics that has an athletic record like W&M. I know of no other that offers football and has our level of success.

BTW, 4 FCS playoff appearances as a CAA team within 10 years is outstanding. How would Lehigh do if they played an ACC school, UNH, JMU, UD, UR, [ODU], Maine, and Nova every year? 11 games. You'd go 7-4 or better 40% of the time? STOMP #1 S. ILL at their place? Beat UVA?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Full members include JMU, Towson, Delaware, Drexel, and Northeastern. We also had more championships when VCU, ODU and GMU were members. Go ahead a explain how winning more championships than ANY of those schools is somehow weak. We did that without wrestling and mens lax, btw.

Seems to me you're upset about something but show me another small public school with elite academics that has an athletic record like W&M. I know of no other that offers football and has our level of success.

BTW, 4 FCS playoff appearances as a CAA team within 10 years is outstanding. How would Lehigh do if they played an ACC school, UNH, JMU, UD, UR, [ODU], Maine, and Nova every year? 11 games. You'd go 7-4 or better 40% of the time? STOMP #1 S. ILL at their place? Beat UVA?

Villanova or Richmond would be better additions if we're strictly looking at it from a football perspective. However, W&M would, imo, be the best all sports candidate.

As for Lehigh in the CAA, they would be towards the top of the league assuming they're following CAA rules. Lehigh has been one of the most consistently good/strong FCS programs since the very beginning.

[Model Citizen]

http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/19449/ncaa-tournaments-un-fab-five-are-0-for-75

From the Useless Information Dept.

Only about 1/5 of those original D-I schools--33 to be exact--are now FCS. Most of them belong to one of three FCS leagues.

[Sitting Bull]

As for Lehigh in the CAA, they would be towards the top of the league assuming they're following CAA rules. Lehigh has been one of the most consistently good/strong FCS programs since the very beginning.

Well for starters, W&M is 8-1 vs. Lehigh all time, all those games in the 80s/90s. Not sure if any were when we were actually in the Yankee/A10/CAA.

Second, what is Lehigh's record against CAA teams since 1990 including playoffs? I have always admired Lehigh's program but would bet you are sub 500.

[bostonspider]

I'm not so sure I'd agree with this statement. You have a $20 million dollar athletic budget and your football team is FULLY FUNDED with an endowment, as I understand the situation. Fully-endowing a football program is unheard of at the FCS level and most of the FBS level.

The Spider's football program is also fully endowed. UR has an over $150M athletic endowment.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Well for starters, W&M is 8-1 vs. Lehigh all time, all those games in the 80s/90s. Not sure if any were when we were actually in the Yankee/A10/CAA.

Second, what is Lehigh's record against CAA teams since 1990 including playoffs? I have always admired Lehigh's program but would bet you are sub 500.

Lehigh's record is 3-5 against the A10/CAA in the playoffs. Two of those losses were against eventual national champs, 13-14 to JMU in '04 and 21-27 to UMass in '98.

As for overall record I'm not sure but your probably right with it being below .500. A lot of those losses were at the hands of Delaware. W&M was an independent each time they played Lehigh.

The PL was strong (mostly due to HC but with a helping hand from Lehigh/Lafayette) from its inception to 1991. Then it went in the tank in the mid 1990's only to re-emerge from it's slumber in 1998.

[Sitting Bull]

Lehigh's record is 3-5 against the A10/CAA in the playoffs. Two of those losses were against eventual national champs, 13-14 to JMU in '04 and 21-27 to UMass in '98.

As for overall record I'm not sure but your probably right with it being below .500. A lot of those losses were at the hands of Delaware.

The PL was strong (mostly due to HC but with a helping hand from Lehigh/Lafayette) from its inception to 1991. Then it went in the tank in the mid 1990's only to re-emerge from it's slumber in 1998.

I do remember more recently you have had games with UNH and Villanova but I don't recall Lehigh winning any of them either. Not totally sure.

Anyway, my point is your assertion of finishing in the top tier of the CAA is certainly not supported by facts. On the other hand, I think Lehigh would be a nice addition and would certainly be competitive.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I do remember more recently you have had games with UNH and Villanova but I don't recall Lehigh winning any of them either. Not totally sure.

Anyway, my point is your assertion of finishing in the top tier of the CAA is certainly not supported by facts. On the other hand, I think Lehigh would be a nice addition and would certainly be competitive.

Lehigh beat Villanova in 2006. They lost to UNH in 2010 and again in OT in 2011 on a controversial call. They'll be able to get revenge this season.

It's comparing apples and oranges. If you give Lehigh red-shirting, scholarships ,etc there's no reason to think they wouldn't stack up in the upper tier. Historically, Lehigh would be ranked ahead of numerous schools in the CAA as it is. Top 10 winning %, ONLY school to make the playoffs and win a game in every decade (70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's), National Runner-up etc....

[Engineer86]

Well for starters, W&M is 8-1 vs. Lehigh all time, all those games in the 80s/90s. Not sure if any were when we were actually in the Yankee/A10/CAA.

Second, what is Lehigh's record against CAA teams since 1990 including playoffs? I have always admired Lehigh's program but would bet you are sub 500.

There is also the caveat of "Lehigh playing following the CAA rules". This would mean scholarships, no AI, and redshirts. Actually with all those hypothetical changes, I doubt anyone would know, but I would agree, that Lehigh has done well within the rules it has been held too.

[Tribal]

Lehigh beat Villanova in 2006. They lost to UNH in 2010 and again in OT in 2011 on a controversial call. They'll be able to get revenge this season.

It's comparing apples and oranges. If you give Lehigh red-shirting, scholarships ,etc there's no reason to think they wouldn't stack up in the upper tier. Historically, Lehigh would be ranked ahead of numerous schools in the CAA as it is. Top 10 winning %, ONLY school to make the playoffs and win a game in every decade (70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's), National Runner-up etc....

Now you & I are on the same track...if Lehigh enjoyed the benefit of "red-shirts, scholarships, etc"...exactly why most Tribe fans are opposed to going to the PL...we have those things in the CAA.

You don't have to tell me what it's like to play UD and UNH, we do that every season and we owned UNH until last year (amazing feat given how great they are EVERY season). Playing 8 CAA schools every year would certainly hurt your winning percentage and you'd have to be a top 25 team to make it to the playoffs.

Again, not at all a knock on the PL, just my thoughts on conference strength.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I do remember more recently you have had games with UNH and Villanova but I don't recall Lehigh winning any of them either. Not totally sure.

Anyway, my point is your assertion of finishing in the top tier of the CAA is certainly not supported by facts. On the other hand, I think Lehigh would be a nice addition and would certainly be competitive.

Lehigh went 1-4 vs. Villanova from 2006-2010 and 0-2 vs. UNH 2010-2011. In 2010 Lehigh lost to Delaware in the playoffs but beat Towson, of course, in 2011.

Of course, a lot of CAA teams, too, lost to these teams in these seasons. IMO it's very hard to judge.

[Sitting Bull]

Lehigh beat Villanova in 2006. They lost to UNH in 2010 and again in OT in 2011 on a controversial call. They'll be able to get revenge this season.

You only give half the story. So you beat Villanova in 2006. Wasn't it a 4 or 6 game series? How many times did you lose to Villanova the past 10 years?

We beat UVA in 2009 but I wouldn't expect or ever start proclaiming we would be a consistent top tier in the ACC.

The only thing you can judge by is facts and your record against the CAA is nowhere near supporting Lehigh would be a top tier team. It's just fantasy to think that.

[Sitting Bull]

We were typing at the same time......

Thanks for following that one up.

[LeadBolt]

A couple of posters mentioned the PL rules that are different from the CAA rules (red shirts, AI, scholarships). I believe these are the items that keep W&M from considering the PL more seriously. Imo they are self inflicted wounds the PL clings to for some reason.

What I see in the emails released from the W&M athletic department and administration on the discussions of conference membership is an honest belief that the rules the CAA plays by are more palatable to W&M than the rules the PL imposes upon itself, not dsidain for the PL some have suggested.

W&M took the tack of being loyal to the conference they have been playing in and helping to glue it back together in order to continue a program closer to the status quo than making the bigger change to playing by the PL rules, changing more rivalries and increasing travel. In the short term that seems to be the best answer. THe status quo has always been highly favored at W&M. As the CAA evolves further, it may or may not be the correct answer.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You only give half the story. So you beat Villanova in 2006. Wasn't it a 4 or 6 game series? How many times did you lose to Villanova the past 10 years?

We beat UVA in 2009 but I wouldn't expect or ever start proclaiming we would be a consistent top tier in the ACC.

The only thing you can judge by is facts and your record against the CAA is nowhere near supporting Lehigh would be a top tier team. It's just fantasy to think that.

I think Lehigh's performance against the CAA in the playoffs is a better assessment of where they would stack up. The PL's overall performance against the CAA in the playoffs is quite respectable.

As for their performance against Villanova, it wasn't great but then again it was never going to be. Lehigh had its worst stretch from '06-'09 while Villanova had their best run in school history. The beatdown in 2010 is acceptable because Villanova was just that freaking good. Lehigh still managed to beat the MVFC champ in the playoffs that year.

[danefan]

I think Lehigh's performance against the CAA in the playoffs is a better assessment of where they would stack up. The PL's overall performance against the CAA in the playoffs is quite respectable.

As for their performance against Villanova, it wasn't great but then again it was never going to be. Lehigh had its worst stretch from '06-'09 while Villanova had their best run in school history. The beatdown in 2010 is acceptable because Villanova was just that freaking good. Lehigh still managed to beat the MVFC champ in the playoffs that year.

One game in the playoffs is not indicative of grinding out a full season in the CAA. Put Lehigh in Albany's schedule this year and tell me how they'd do?

2013 FOOTBALL SCHEDULE
Aug. 31 @ Duquesne
Sept. 7 @ Colgate
Sept. 14 vs. Rhode Island* (Fireworks by SEFCU)
Sept. 21 vs. CCSU (Hall of Fame Game)
Sept. 28 @ Old Dominion
Oct. 5 @ James Madison*
Oct. 12 @ Delaware*
Oct. 19 vs. Towson* (Homecoming)
Oct. 26 BYE
Nov. 2 @ Richmond*
Nov. 9 vs. Maine*
Nov. 16 vs. UNH*
Nov. 23 @ Stony Brook*

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One game in the playoffs is not indicative of grinding out a full season in the CAA. Put Lehigh in Albany's schedule this year and tell me how they'd do?

2013 FOOTBALL SCHEDULE
Aug. 31 @ Duquesne
Sept. 7 @ Colgate
Sept. 14 vs. Rhode Island* (Fireworks by SEFCU)
Sept. 21 vs. CCSU (Hall of Fame Game)
Sept. 28 @ Old Dominion
Oct. 5 @ James Madison*
Oct. 12 @ Delaware*
Oct. 19 vs. Towson* (Homecoming)
Oct. 26 BYE
Nov. 2 @ Richmond*
Nov. 9 vs. Maine*
Nov. 16 vs. UNH*
Nov. 23 @ Stony Brook*


As far as you and I know? Undefeated. xthumbsupx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

One game in the playoffs is not indicative of grinding out a full season in the CAA. Put Lehigh in Albany's schedule this year and tell me how they'd do?

2013 FOOTBALL SCHEDULE
Aug. 31 @ Duquesne
Sept. 7 @ Colgate
Sept. 14 vs. Rhode Island* (Fireworks by SEFCU)
Sept. 21 vs. CCSU (Hall of Fame Game)
Sept. 28 @ Old Dominion
Oct. 5 @ James Madison*
Oct. 12 @ Delaware*
Oct. 19 vs. Towson* (Homecoming)
Oct. 26 BYE
Nov. 2 @ Richmond*
Nov. 9 vs. Maine*
Nov. 16 vs. UNH*
Nov. 23 @ Stony Brook*


That's a brutal schedule, most teams not named NDSU would be screwed :p Seriously though, a 4-0 start would be quite possible. So realistically 7-5 maybe?

Lehigh, imo, COULD fair quite well with Villanova's schedule this year.

The unbalanced schedules in the CAA certainly aren't "fair"

[danefan]

That's a brutal schedule, most teams not named NDSU would be screwed :p Seriously though, 4-0 would be quite possible. So realistically 7-5 maybe?

Lehigh, imo, COULD fair quite well with Villanova's schedule this year.

The unbalanced schedules in the CAA certainly aren't "fair"

That's where I'd put Albany. 7-5 best case. More likely 5-7 though.

[The Maestro]

One game in the playoffs is not indicative of grinding out a full season in the CAA. Put Lehigh in Albany's schedule this year and tell me how they'd do?

2013 FOOTBALL SCHEDULE
Aug. 31 @ Duquesne
Sept. 7 @ Colgate
Sept. 14 vs. Rhode Island* (Fireworks by SEFCU)
Sept. 21 vs. CCSU (Hall of Fame Game)
Sept. 28 @ Old Dominion
Oct. 5 @ James Madison*
Oct. 12 @ Delaware*
Oct. 19 vs. Towson* (Homecoming)
Oct. 26 BYE
Nov. 2 @ Richmond*
Nov. 9 vs. Maine*
Nov. 16 vs. UNH*
Nov. 23 @ Stony Brook*


6-6 probably; 7-5 maybe; 8-4 at best.

[URMite]

That's a brutal schedule, most teams not named NDSU would be screwed :p Seriously though, a 4-0 start would be quite possible. So realistically 7-5 maybe?

Lehigh, imo, COULD fair quite well with Villanova's schedule this year.

The unbalanced schedules in the CAA certainly aren't "fair"

And I thought you would rather have Richmond's schedule...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

And I thought you would rather of Richmond's schedule...

Lehigh could do pretty well with Richmond's schedule too. You guys dodge a lot of bullets this year, at least based on predictions.

[Go...gate]

W&M has never been defined by its athletics. If the PL is looking for that type of school you should skip over us. If you just want to beat us up on this board so be it. It says more about PL fans than it does about W&M.

As Tribal has pointed out, we have some pretty good non-revenue programs and occasional flashes in the major sports. We have good academics.

We operate our athletic department on significantly less money and higher academic standards than most schools we compete with. This makes sustained dominance difficult. For the most part W&M athletics are run the right way and are truly populated by student athletes.

If you don't like us, that's fine. We aren't sitting around looking for your approval, even though we believe their is much in common.

I don't believe for a microsecond that the ill-considered statements of a few represent the view of the vast majority of us in the PL. I, for one, would be extremely pleased if W & M became a member. Same goes for Villanova or Richmond. They would all be a fine fit in the PL.

[Tribal]

One game in the playoffs is not indicative of grinding out a full season in the CAA. Put Lehigh in Albany's schedule this year and tell me how they'd do?

2013 FOOTBALL SCHEDULE
Aug. 31 @ Duquesne
Sept. 7 @ Colgate
Sept. 14 vs. Rhode Island* (Fireworks by SEFCU)
Sept. 21 vs. CCSU (Hall of Fame Game)
Sept. 28 @ Old Dominion
Oct. 5 @ James Madison*
Oct. 12 @ Delaware*
Oct. 19 vs. Towson* (Homecoming)
Oct. 26 BYE
Nov. 2 @ Richmond*
Nov. 9 vs. Maine*
Nov. 16 vs. UNH*
Nov. 23 @ Stony Brook*


Now try that schedule but make WVU your first game. That's W&M's 2013 schedule in a nutshell.

[Tribal]

I don't believe for a microsecond that the ill-considered statements of a few represent the view of the vast majority of us in the PL. I, for one, would be extremely pleased if W & M became a member. Same goes for Villanova or Richmond. They would all be a fine fit in the PL.

Agree, except Nova and UR would never go to the PL or CAA for all sports.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I don't believe for a microsecond that the ill-considered statements of a few represent the view of the vast majority of us in the PL. I, for one, would be extremely pleased if W & M became a member. Same goes for Villanova or Richmond. They would all be a fine fit in the PL.

Trust me, the NDSU, UNI, EWU, SHSU fans would point to W&M's record over the last few years and shrug their shoulders. I promise you, a lot of "outsiders" would suggest the move was due to the Tribe's "recent" struggles. Therefore, some would unfortunately look at it as a mercy move imo.

Villanova and/or Richmond would be looked upon much more favorably nationally.

[Go...gate]

Agree, except Nova and UR would never go to the PL or CAA for all sports.

And that (all-sports) makes you guys the best choice for the PL. I'm not keen on any more Associate Football members.

[Go...gate]

Trust me, the NDSU, UNI, EWU, SHSU fans would point to W&M's record over the last few years and shrug their shoulders. I promise you, a lot of "outsiders" would suggest the move was due to the Tribe's "recent" struggles. Therefore, some would unfortunately look at it as a mercy move imo.

Villanova and/or Richmond would be looked upon much more favorably nationally.

I could care less. W & M is, by light years, a superior school academically to any school in any of those conferences.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I could care less. W & M is, by light years, a superior school academically to any school in any of those conferences.

I agree...

[Go...gate]

I'm betting that if W & M were in the equation for all sports, Loyola would never have been admitted to the PL.

[ngineer]

Having Richmond, Villanova, and W&M in the PL would really make a nice conference.

[carney2]

This thread is getting tiresome.

[Tribe4SF]

This thread is getting tiresome.

+1

Maybe we'll get lucky and it will evolve into a technical discussion of the AI. That'll be good for another 20 pages.

[CFBfan]

the only thing missing to drag it to an all time low is MPLS

[RichH2]

the only thing missing to drag it to an all time low is MPLS

Lets not.AI and mpls would force me to hijack thread to poll for best burgers.;)

[CFBfan]

Lets not.AI and mpls would force me to hijack thread to poll for best burgers.;)

it would be a welcome hijack rich!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lets not.AI and mpls would force me to hijack thread to poll for best burgers.;)

College Hill Tavern vs. the Tally Ho?

[Engineer86]

College Hill Tavern vs. the Tally Ho?

You are showing your age, the Tally Ho, while a great place 30 years ago is now a complete dive. Not worthy of a post game beer much less a burger.

[Pard4Life]

I just stick with Pizza Doro for all occasions.

And Campus Pizza sucks.

[Bogus Megapardus]

And Campus Pizza sucks.

Yeah, but location is everything. Why walk another half block to Pizza D when Campus Pizza is staring you in the face?

[Go...gate]

OK, it's PL Media Day. Did Femovich say anything about new football members?

[Lehigh'98]

You are showing your age, the Tally Ho, while a great place 30 years ago is now a complete dive. Not worthy of a post game beer much less a burger.


I've had many drunk nights at the Ho, has it been overrun by the townies?

[Sader87]

OK, it's PL Media Day. Did Femovich say anything about new football members?

Miami (Fla) isn't joining this year according to Femovich.

[Pard4Life]

Yeah, but location is everything. Why walk another half block to Pizza D when Campus Pizza is staring you in the face?

The thought of terrible food is enough to force me to walk an extra 25 seconds.

But your average college kid doesn't know the difference between tomato sauce and ketchup.

[RichH2]

Thr Ho was our hangout back at the dane of time. Great fries and burgers. Not when last we went 2 yrs ago

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You are showing your age, the Tally Ho, while a great place 30 years ago is now a complete dive. Not worthy of a post game beer much less a burger.

Wait - the Tally Ho was, at one time, not a complete dive? xlolx

[Tribal]

The thought of terrible food is enough to force me to walk an extra 25 seconds.

But your average college kid doesn't know the difference between tomato sauce and ketchup.

This simply cannot be overstated. The difference between excellent pizza and Dominoes, Papa Johns et al is enough to make me pay double and walk an extra mile. Need to walk off the calories anyway, might as well knock off the front 50 on the way to the restaurant.

[Engineer86]

Wait - the Tally Ho was, at one time, not a complete dive? xlolx

Well, maybe my standards have changed some, but I assure you my standards have not changed as much as the Tally Ho. It was a great college bar back in the 80s. I went in there a few years back and it is a smoking bar and there were no college kids even there.

[tribe_pride]

Tally Ho - Does this place make it so that W&M should want to join the PL or should not want to join the PL?

[Tribe4SF]

Tally Ho - Does this place make it so that W&M should want to join the PL or should not want to join the PL?

Hey, it's a smoking bar...we are from a tobacco state...done deal.

[Tribal]

Rename it "Burn One" and we might can work sumpthin' out. We'll keep it hush-hush 'til after our WVU game cause them boys may get confused and bring their couches.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This simply cannot be overstated. The difference between excellent pizza and Dominoes, Papa Johns et al is enough to make me pay double and walk an extra mile. Need to walk off the calories anyway, might as well knock off the front 50 on the way to the restaurant.

Rep points for engaging in this discussion with Patriot League-style seriousness. Might have to re-think my William & Mary protest.


The thought of terrible food is enough to force me to walk an extra 25 seconds.

But your average college kid doesn't know the difference between tomato sauce and ketchup.

Always been that way. Back in my day, the Pizza D owners, self-proclaimed bastions of True Italian Culture, would complain privately that Campus Pizza was owned by a bunch of Greeks who couldn't even manage a decent Souvlaki. I agree that Campus Pizza was, and remains, horrid, greasy, ill-prepared and likely poisonous.

But a post Fiji pub nite freshman literally could fall out of a third floor McKeen Hall window at 3 AM and still tumble his way to the near corner of McCartney and March without permanent injury.

[Pard4Life]

Rep points for engaging in this discussion with Patriot League-style seriousness. Might have to re-think my William & Mary protest.



Always been that way. Back in my day, the Pizza D owners, self-proclaimed bastions of True Italian Culture, would complain privately that Campus Pizza was owned by a bunch of Greeks who couldn't even manage a decent Souvlaki. I agree that Campus Pizza was, and remains, horrid, greasy, ill-prepared and likely poisonous.

But a post Fiji pub nite freshman literally could fall out of a third floor McKeen Hall window at 3 AM and still tumble his way to the near corner of McCartney and March without permanent injury.

Ha! Good knock on not even getting Greek culture right... I ordered kebab or something like that once... the pita was soggy and was drowned in some dill and mayo sour cream combo. I'd be afraid to consider any baklava: I'd get a pillsbury flaky pastry with maple syrup and honey instead.

[RichH2]

So we finally got to food. Season must be close.

[DFW HOYA]

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/fairbank-blog/dp-spt-blog-wm-driscoll-caa-update-20130801,0,7418119.post

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/fairbank-blog/dp-spt-blog-wm-driscoll-caa-update-20130801,0,7418119.post

Summary - AD Terry Driscoll says if there ever comes a day that W&M can't compete in the CAA, he might have to lower his competitive sights and reduce himself to the shame and embarrassment of considering the gawd-awful and widely disrespected Patriot League - with its inferior athletic facilities, economy class budgets and provincial attitudes.

Fortunately, Driscoll doesn't see such a tragedy on the horizon. So Tribe fans can breathe a sigh of relief.

What Driscoll doesn't reveal, however, is the real reason why W&M is such a poor fit for the PL. They just don't have decent pizza in Williamsburg. Patriot League fans have come to expect to be able to get a decent slice on the road. The "College Delly" just doesn't do it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

“For Madison, from a financial standpoint, I don’t know that the revenue opportunities that potentially existed still do,” he said. “Very few non-legacy conferences had much participation in the existing BCS. Realistically, where are the media companies that are fueling this, where are they making their investments? They’re making them in the big guys. Now, there’s still going to be a need for additional content, so there will be some money around. But I don’t know to what degree the amount of money available is going to make these programs profitable or break even.”

“I can’t speak for Madison and Delaware,” Driscoll said, “but it behooves them to delay any decisions they can until they see how the landscape looks after this supposed new championship structure evolves.”

Translation: "We've been trying very, very hard, in the words of our president, to "rebuild the CAA the best we can". Don't f-ing blow it, Delaware and JMU."

[Sitting Bull]

Summary - AD Terry Driscoll says if there ever comes a day that W&M can't compete in the CAA, he might have to lower his competitive sights and reduce himself to the shame and embarrassment of considering the gawd-awful and widely disrespected Patriot League - with its inferior athletic facilities, economy class budgets and provincial attitudes.

Fortunately, Driscoll doesn't see such a tragedy on the horizon. So Tribe fans can breathe a sigh of relief.

What Driscoll doesn't reveal, however, is the real reason why W&M is such a poor fit for the PL. They just don't have decent pizza in Williamsburg. Patriot League fans have come to expect to be able to get a decent slice on the road. The "College Delly" just doesn't do it.

Wow, someone seems to have a thin skin. I think they have been very complimentary of the PL, and should be.

And no one needs Pizza when you get real BBQ, Hot Hollys and fried osyters.

[LeadBolt]

Summary - AD Terry Driscoll says if there ever comes a day that W&M can't compete in the CAA, he might have to lower his competitive sights and reduce himself to the shame and embarrassment of considering the gawd-awful and widely disrespected Patriot League - with its inferior athletic facilities, economy class budgets and provincial attitudes.

Fortunately, Driscoll doesn't see such a tragedy on the horizon. So Tribe fans can breathe a sigh of relief.

What Driscoll doesn't reveal, however, is the real reason why W&M is such a poor fit for the PL. They just don't have decent pizza in Williamsburg. Patriot League fans have come to expect to be able to get a decent slice on the road. The "College Delly" just doesn't do it.

Wow! Way to twist:

“We helped engineer where we are now,” Driscoll said...

“It’s like us saying, here’s a football experience that goes with the academic side of the house here,” Driscoll said. “Where’s that best happen? Some people could say the Patriot League because they’re a lot like us....If we see something change, we would have to initiate some things, but we aren’t there yet.”

into

"he might have to lower his competitive sights and reduce himself to the shame and embarrassment of considering the gawd-awful and widely disrespected Patriot League - with its inferior athletic facilities, economy class budgets and provincial attitudes."

You did nail the pizza argument, in a provincial way however...

The rest is Bogus...

[Bogus Megapardus]

The rest is Bogus...

My well-known penchant for hyperbole remains unabated. xwhistlex

However, I think you're being a little unfair. I selectively mischaracterized out-of-context snippets from the entire article, not just that one quote.

[LeadBolt]

My well-known penchant for hyperbole remains unabated. xwhistlex

However, I think you're being a little unfair. I selectively mischaracterized out-of-context snippets from the entire article, not just that one quote.

My apologies. Upon further review, I see I have unwittingly minimized the scope of your mischaracterizations. You sir, are even more Bogus than I had previously stated.