Patriot League Schedules (Pt. 1): How A 10-1 Lehigh Team Stayed At Home Come Playoffs

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/07/patriot-league-schedules-pt-1-how.html

Warning: Pretty depressing reading for most PL folks.

[gotts]

Ugh, I made the mistake of reading that...

[Pard4Life]

I can tell you without reading... since SD beat Colgate, Lehigh did not get a bid.

[gumby013]

Any Patriot League watcher knows that Harvard, year in and year out, has a near-FBS-caliber team suiting up every season. Every season there are one, two, or three players that make it to NFL training camps, more than many, many scholarship FBS schools.

That gem.

[Pard4Life]

Is that a new official PL logo?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is that a new official PL logo?

It actually is, from the PL Football Twitter account.

[ccd494]

The issue isn't not playing FBS teams, the issue is playing multiple Ivies and NEC teams, and not even the best Ivy and NEC teams.

Lehigh scheduled both Central Connecticut and Monmouth last year. Odds were that if ANY NEC teams were going to be beneficial for a schedule strength boost, it would be just one, maybe two teams. By scheduling two NEC teams, Lehigh basically guaranteed itself at least one valueless win. In reality, it got itself two valueless wins (CCSU at 2-8 was useless, Monmouth at 5-5 was little better). Both Albany and Wagner would up with 9 wins, and both would have been "good" wins. But when you schedule the NEC, you are basically walking into the convenience store and buying a lottery ticket. If you schedule Wagner the year they go 9-2 and win, terrific. But odds are you aren't going to catch that lightning in a bottle.

Note: Lehigh again plays a 2-8 CCSU team and a now independent Monmouth this year.

Lehigh last year scheduled two Ivy League teams: Princeton and Columbia. Again, this is two games against a league that a.) rarely tests itself out of conference, and b.) does not try to schedule for the playoffs and thus will likely be unconcerned about its non-conference schedule raising their power rankings. That means that you, again, need to beat a 7+ win team to get any kind of "value." In addition to scheduling "down" to play two Ivies, one of the Ivies Lehigh played last year was Columbia. When is the last time anyone scheduled Columbia and expected the Lions to help them move up in any sort of rankings? 1941? Princeton's 5-5 record again did not help. When scheduling Ivies, you can feel fairly comfortable that three, maybe four teams at best will help. Penn and Harvard are fair bets to fill two of those spots. Princeton possibly. But when you schedule Princeton AND Columbia, you are basically saying a hail mary that Princeton will be good.

Note: Lehigh again plays Columbia and Princeton.

Lehigh's fifth non-conference game was Liberty. You can't really fault Lehigh for that decision, as consensus was that Liberty would be good. Unfortunately, Liberty stumbled to 6-5. However, this was a risky game because Liberty is in the Big South. Going into the year, you could figure that Liberty would play two even average ranked conference opponents and two only: Stony Brook and Coastal Carolina. Coincidentally, who can name the last time Liberty made the FCS playoffs?

There are all FCS schedules you can create that will get the strong schedule strength Lehigh lacks. Instead of 2 NEC (or equivalent), 2 Ivy and 1 "up" game (as poor an "up" as Liberty was, we'll count it as an "up."). Schedule 2 CAA, 2 Ivy (NOT COLUMBIA) and 1 NEC. There isn't any reason you can't concurrently have home and homes going with both New Hampshire and Richmond, for example. If Richmond ends up going 4-7 they will be better than 2-8 CCSU, because THEIR strength of schedule will be better AND they will likely beat a decent team or two in the league. It's much lower risk (setting aside the risk of losing both games- in which case we will have determined Lehigh's playoff worthiness). Then play your traditional Ivy games, but lose Columbia's phone number. You can handle two 5-5 Ivies, you just can't handle a 5-5 and a 2-8. And if you want to continue your traditional rivalry with Monmouth, feel free. Buy a home game. You can survive it if you beef up elsewhere.

@ New Hampshire, vs. Richmond, @ Princeton, vs. Penn, vs. Monmouth. That's a playoff worthy non-conference schedule. And they are all academically strong-ish schools, you wouldn't even have to deign to play a Maine (who would probably fall all over themselves to get a home and home with Lehigh) or a Coastal Carolina or a midwest directional university.

[Pard4Life]

That gem.

LFN Statement is a bit strong but mostly accurate. Harvard is solid, just doesn't have the depth.

[ccd494]

LFN Statement is a bit strong but mostly accurate. Harvard is solid, just doesn't have the depth.

But Lehigh didn't schedule Harvard. If Lehigh beat Harvard instead of Columbia, this argument isn't happening.

If Lehigh beat a 5-5 CAA instead of CCSU (2-8), this argument isn't happening.

People don't want to look and say "Lehigh had the #XX toughest schedule in the nation!" All they ask is being able to say "Wow, Lehigh beat ______, that's a good team!" Please name me one team Lehigh beat last year that could fill that blank.

[TheRevSFA]

Lehigh scheduled themselves out of the playoffs had the situation in which a loss came into effect. It did.

Quit dwelling and schedule tougher teams

[UNH Fanboi]

But Lehigh didn't schedule Harvard. If Lehigh beat Harvard instead of Columbia, this argument isn't happening.

If Lehigh beat a 5-5 CAA instead of CCSU (2-8), this argument isn't happening.

People don't want to look and say "Lehigh had the #XX toughest schedule in the nation!" All they ask is being able to say "Wow, Lehigh beat ______, that's a good team!" Please name me one team Lehigh beat last year that could fill that blank.

In addition to not beating anyone of note, 5 of Lehigh's 10 wins were by 3 points or less.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But Lehigh didn't schedule Harvard. If Lehigh beat Harvard instead of Columbia, this argument isn't happening.

I disagree. People would look at Harvard's Sag or some such rating ("They're 37!") or look at one of their losses ("They lost to Princeton!") and discount Lehigh's win. It happens every year to PL schools.


If Lehigh beat a 5-5 CAA instead of CCSU (2-8), this argument isn't happening.

Even if Lehigh's schedule makers could divine in advance whom the 5-5 teams will be, I disagree. A win over a 5-5 CAA team is not nearly as powerful as an FBS loss on the schedule.


People don't want to look and say "Lehigh had the #XX toughest schedule in the nation!" All they ask is being able to say "Wow, Lehigh beat ______, that's a good team!" Please name me one team Lehigh beat last year that could fill that blank.

In the last seven years, Liberty has had seven straight winning seasons, making them one of the winningest programs in FCS. They technically were co-champs of the Big South last season. I'd argue beating Liberty ON THE ROAD was a good win. But then again, Lehigh rolled the dice that Liberty would be a Top 25 program, giving them "schedule strength", and lost. Life in the PL means taking a huge crapshoot with your "schedule strength" games. Conversely, other schools schedule 1, 2, and sometimes three FBS teams, and win or lose, get "schedule strength".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In addition to not beating anyone of note, 5 of Lehigh's 10 wins were by 3 points or less.

A fair criticism. However, only a handful of teams even had 10 D-I wins.

[Lehigh'98]

FBS games become a non issue if we schedule 2 CAA teams as Maine states.

[DFW HOYA]

Some of this is in the numbers, but a lot of this is perception: outside the East Coast, awareness of the PL is clouded in the perception that it is the non-scholarship, "last amateurs" conference where a commitment to athletics is lacking. Fair? Probably not, but it's out there.

Complicating this is that the PL does not schedule outside a narrow region, so there are fewer opportunities to change hearts and minds.

[RichH2]

No doubt schedule has to be improved. Views differ as to how but OOC last yr and this are not good. Rehashing last yr with lots of woulda,coulda,shoulda analysis adds nothing to the issue. LU and PL have to schedule up. LFN's presents the stark picture well. The issue is and will remain what will LU and PL do about it nd when, Disappointed last yr for sure but we had no one to blame but ourselves. We made schedule and could not hold a 14 pt lead on Gate. Lets move on to buiding future schedules.

[UAalum72]

Not mentioned yet is that the Patriot League, with only seven members, has five (and in 2013 and 2014 SIX) chances to get that signature win - two or three more than most other conferences. However much being yoked to the Ivy League reduces those odds, the PL just isn't taking advantage of helping their FCS schedule, let alone FBS.

[RichH2]

True UA. Going to be a process. Tup 2-3 Ivies are a plus but we all cant get them every yr. Seems Ivy games will lessen somewhat over the next 5-6 yrs. The opportunity is there to raise OOC. Remains to be seen whether it will be.

[gumby013]

Also, everyone in the conference has to share the load and actually win the OOC games. Just scheduling them doesn't' count.

[UAalum72]

Also, everyone in the conference has to share the load and actually win the OOC games. Just scheduling them doesn't' count.
Actually the point of his blog is that just scheduling FBS teams DOES count, whether you win or not.

[gumby013]

Actually the point of his blog is that just scheduling FBS teams DOES count, whether you win or not.

I meant FCS OOC games. It has to be an effort by the whole conference to schedule, and win, tougher games. Just one or two teams doing it isn't enough to move the needle on the strength of the whole conference.

[ccd494]

I disagree. People would look at Harvard's Sag or some such rating ("They're 37!") or look at one of their losses ("They lost to Princeton!") and discount Lehigh's win. It happens every year to PL schools.

Does it? Lehigh hasn't given that opportunity to anyone who's opinion matters because they keep scheduling subpar NEC and Ivy teams. If Lehigh had beaten Albany and Harvard instead of CCSU and Columbia, I'd be right on your side. But you didn't.




Even if Lehigh's schedule makers could divine in advance whom the 5-5 teams will be, I disagree. A win over a 5-5 CAA team is not nearly as powerful as an FBS loss on the schedule.

But you are looking at that in a Sagarin vacuum. Last I checked, the FCS playoff criteria said a little bit more than "Just take the at large eligible teams with the highest Sagarin ratings." Besides, you risk cutting off your nose to spite your face if you refuse to schedule the CAA team because they aren't an FBS team. "Well, we don't get as much from Maine as we do from Oklahoma, so let's just schedule Savannah State" makes zero sense.


In the last seven years, Liberty has had seven straight winning seasons, making them one of the winningest programs in FCS. They technically were co-champs of the Big South last season. I'd argue beating Liberty ON THE ROAD was a good win. But then again, Lehigh rolled the dice that Liberty would be a Top 25 program, giving them "schedule strength", and lost. Life in the PL means taking a huge crapshoot with your "schedule strength" games. Conversely, other schools schedule 1, 2, and sometimes three FBS teams, and win or lose, get "schedule strength".

These other schools scheduling 3 FBS teams aren't making the playoffs. Nichols State isn't getting in over Lehigh because they scheduled a ton of FBS games. I have no issue with scheduling Liberty. Schedule Liberty every year. Liberty is a good FCS opponent that more often than not will help Lehigh field a credible non-conference schedule. The problem is that Lehigh put all its eggs in the one "LIBERTY WILL SAVE THE DAY" basket. Schedule Liberty AS PART of a challenging non-conference schedule, and you will be fine. Schedule Liberty as your BIG GAME and you run the risk of having what happened happen.

[RichH2]

To a certain extent LFN is right about history of impact of having a FBS game win or lose. I dont agree that getting FBS s.b the primary goal for PL. Get good FCS first.

Well gumby, we cant beat'em until we get'em on the schedule. First get some.

[danefan]

Why are we still talking about this.

Lehigh didn't make the playoffs because they lost to Colgate. It not only cost them their AQ, but Colgate also had two losses to non-playoff teams in Albany and a last place South Dakota team.

And the Committee was proven right when Colgate went out and lost to Wagner in the first round.

If you play in the NEC, Patriot, Pioneer, Big South, OVC (most years) or MEAC you shouldn't whine if you don't get an AQ and have no quality OOC wins. Those league schedules are not enough.

[Franks Tanks]

Why are we still talking about this.

Lehigh didn't make the playoffs because they lost to Colgate. It not only cost them their AQ, but Colgate also had two losses to non-playoff teams in Albany and a last place South Dakota team.

And the Committee was proven right when Colgate went out and lost to Wagner in the first round.

If you play in the NEC, Patriot, Pioneer, Big South, OVC (most years) or MEAC you shouldn't whine if you don't get an AQ and have no quality OOC wins. Those league schedules are not enough.

Pretty much this. We need to play and beat at least one good team from a power conference to get an at large. I understand it is difficult to schedule a "good" team when it is done years in advance, but perhaps we need 2 power conference teams per year.

Lafayette earned an at large bid in 2005. We lost to Princeton and Harvard that year, but beat co A-10 champs Richmond, and Lehigh who was ranked pretty high at the time. That win over Richmond was weighted much more heavily than the loss to Princeton. We need at least one signature win per year OOC to get an at large. We may need to schedule 2-3 good programs per year to make sure we get that win.

[PhillyApp1]

I disagree. People would look at Harvard's Sag or some such rating ("They're 37!") or look at one of their losses ("They lost to Princeton!") and discount Lehigh's win. It happens every year to PL schools.



Even if Lehigh's schedule makers could divine in advance whom the 5-5 teams will be, I disagree. A win over a 5-5 CAA team is not nearly as powerful as an FBS loss on the schedule.



In the last seven years, Liberty has had seven straight winning seasons, making them one of the winningest programs in FCS. They technically were co-champs of the Big South last season. I'd argue beating Liberty ON THE ROAD was a good win. But then again, Lehigh rolled the dice that Liberty would be a Top 25 program, giving them "schedule strength", and lost. Life in the PL means taking a huge crapshoot with your "schedule strength" games. Conversely, other schools schedule 1, 2, and sometimes three FBS teams, and win or lose, get "schedule strength".

That's because WIN OR LOSE to an FBS team beats your team up physically, which makes it harder to WIN your other conference games, let alone the injuries that happen. It shows up better as a STRENGTH than playing and WININNG against mothers of the poor ;-). I think its just logical

[Franks Tanks]

That's because WIN OR LOSE to an FBS team beats your team up physically, which makes it harder to WIN your other conference games, let alone the injuries that happen. It shows up better as a STRENGTH than playing and WININNG against mothers of the poor ;-). I think its just logical

Losing to Florida by 48 points (not that APP has ever done that) should not be considered a win in any manner. A huge loss to a very good FBS team, or a big win against a very poor FCS team should sort of cancel each other out. Both games were tremendous mis-matches and did little to help us understand the overall strength of the team in question.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Losing to Florida by 48 points (not that APP has ever done that) should not be considered a win in any manner. A huge loss to a very good FBS team, or a big win against a very poor FCS team should sort of cancel each other out. Both games were tremendous mis-matches and did little to help us understand the overall strength of the team in question.

I agree. But that's not the way things are currently done. As things stand right now, either with committee members or computer formulae, the mere presence of Florida on the schedule gives that team a serious boost that, say, blowing out Valparaiso does not.

[Professor Chaos]

IMO, an 8-3 Richmond or 7-4 Towson has a bigger beef than Lehigh did last year.

[PhillyApp1]

I agree. But that's not the way things are currently done. As things stand right now, either with committee members or computer formulae, the mere presence of Florida on the schedule gives that team a serious boost that, say, blowing out Valparaiso does not.

I am saying that the physical toll on players after playing much BIGGER and FASTER players as in FBS schools DOES hurt the likelihood of winning other games, as compared to lower OOC schools. So ask the players that played in the games which is easier?

[Pard4Life]

For the non-PL posters here, we had a pretty good discussion about OCC scheduling and FBS last week (which is why LFN made a blog post).

True, you do not know how strong OOC teams will be a year or two in advance (i.e. Liberty in Lehigh's case), but you have to do your best to increase the probability that you will have a strong OOC team on your schedule by scheduling more of those probable teams. Monmouth and CCSU are not likely going to be top teams. Liberty likely will (but didn't)... so Lehigh only had one real gamble.

It's the same scenario this year.. "if UNH is good..." sure, it's a roll of the dice that UNH is good, but it's Lehigh's only shot.

The interesting thing the post points out is that the FBS games are mathematically taken into account in SoS and all DI teams are compared against each other.

Taking FBS games into account for playoff selection IS WRONG!! IT'S TAKING YOUR SCHEDULE AND PUTTING IT ON STEROIDS in hope that it will help your playoff chances down the road. And it inflates the power of your league and your sub-par record. And scheduling FBS games distorts the playoff selection picture.

Also, the problem with football and these rating systems is that there is such a miniscule sample size... 11? Basketball is better because you have 30-32 games... but it is much tougher to make an accurate measurement with football.

However, it is interesting to note Lehigh had a great SoS and an FBS loss in 2003, was 8-3, and still missed the playoffs.

So yes, I do agree with LFN there is a statistical bias against the PL in the standings. Sure, scheduling so many NECs and sub-par Ivies do not help, but having your opponents play FBS teams, sometimes two, significantly distorts the stature of FCS teams.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IMO, an 8-3 Richmond or 7-4 Towson has a bigger beef than Lehigh did last year.

Who, not coincidentally, had three FBS games on their schedule last season. Richmond went to Virginia, Towson traveled to Kent State and Towson.

The other OOC games? Gardner-Webb, VMI, and St. Francis (PA).

All three of those FCS OOC games could be judged to be worse than Lehigh's. CCSU beat SFPA last season, one of their two wins. Webb and VMI had 3 Division I wins last season combined - two against Presbyterian, and someone had to win the game where Webb and VMI played each other.

But Richmond and Towson are not judged in that way, because of "schedule strength".

I find it fascinating that immediately you assume Towson and Richmond were more wronged because they went 3-3 against teams they fully expected to go 3-3 against.

[gotts]

I am saying that the physical toll on players after playing much BIGGER and FASTER players as in FBS schools DOES hurt the likelihood of winning other games, as compared to lower OOC schools. So ask the players that played in the games which is easier?

Does not compute.

[PhillyApp1]

For the non-PL posters here, we had a pretty good discussion about OCC scheduling and FBS last week (which is why LFN made a blog post).

True, you do not know how strong OOC teams will be a year or two in advance (i.e. Liberty in Lehigh's case), but you have to do your best to increase the probability that you will have a strong OOC team on your schedule by scheduling more of those probable teams. Monmouth and CCSU are not likely going to be top teams. Liberty likely will (but didn't)... so Lehigh only had one real gamble.

It's the same scenario this year.. "if UNH is good..." sure, it's a roll of the dice that UNH is good, but it's Lehigh's only shot.

The interesting thing the post points out is that the FBS games are mathematically taken into account in SoS and all DI teams are compared against each other.

Taking FBS games into account for playoff selection IS WRONG!! IT'S TAKING YOUR SCHEDULE AND PUTTING IT ON STEROIDS in hope that it will help your playoff chances down the road. And it inflates the power of your league and your sub-par record. And scheduling FBS games distorts the playoff selection picture.

Also, the problem with football and these rating systems is that there is such a miniscule sample size... 11? Basketball is better because you have 30-32 games... but it is much tougher to make an accurate measurement with football.

However, it is interesting to note Lehigh had a great SoS and an FBS loss in 2003, was 8-3, and still missed the playoffs.

So yes, I do agree with LFN there is a statistical bias against the PL in the standings. Sure, scheduling so many NECs and sub-par Ivies do not help, but having your opponents play FBS teams, sometimes two, significantly distorts the stature of FCS teams.

Great points....so schedule better OOC teams in the FCS and WIN and Lehigh's odds go up...you cant play a PL league schedule and schedule easy OOC games to set up a 10-0 record and stand proud. They had 2 games Colgate and Liberty as compared to any CAA team that gets beat up by weekly conference play.

[gotts]

Who, not coincidentally, had three FBS games on their schedule last season. Richmond went to Virginia, Towson traveled to Kent State and Towson.

The other OOC games? Gardner-Webb, VMI, and St. Francis (PA).

All three of those FCS OOC games could be judged to be worse than Lehigh's. CCSU beat SFPA last season, one of their two wins. Webb and VMI had 3 Division I wins last season combined - two against Presbyterian, and someone had to win the game where Webb and VMI played each other.

But they're not judged in that way, because of "schedule strength".

I find it fascinating that immediately you assume Towson and Richmond were more wronged because they went 3-3 against teams they fully expected to go 3-3 against.

I get your analysis on OOC games, but playoff selection takes into account what happens in the conference too, at least that's what I'm told.

[Pard4Life]

Great points....so schedule better OOC teams in the FCS and WIN and Lehigh's odds go up...you cant play a PL league schedule and schedule easy OOC games to set up a 10-0 record and stand proud. They had 2 games Colgate and Liberty as compared to any CAA team that gets beat up by weekly conference play.

Yeah... PL from year-to-year will likely be weaker than stronger (some years, like 2009, you had three really good teams... all in the top 25.. or during the 1998-2005 era). In that case Lafayette would have definitely received an at-large at 9-2 but it lost in the last game of the year (and we deservedly did not get an invite). Lehigh needs to do a better job, which even some of the Lehigh guys acknowledge.

But I'm also calling into question the entire system of scheduling, evaluating, and "rewarding" FBS games in SoS... and so is LFN to an extent.

[Lehigh'98]

I get your analysis on OOC games, but playoff selection takes into account what happens in the conference too, at least that's what I'm told.

This is where the argument falls apart. Richmond and Towson both had some good CAA wins. Lehigh's PL wins, not so much.

[Franks Tanks]

I am saying that the physical toll on players after playing much BIGGER and FASTER players as in FBS schools DOES hurt the likelihood of winning other games, as compared to lower OOC schools. So ask the players that played in the games which is easier?

Irrelevant. We are supposed to take into account how the players felt after the game? Should we also measure how hot or cold the game was, or if the starting QB broke up with his girlfriend? Should UNH, Maine and Montana be given extra points toward the playoff race because the players are more sore after falling on a frozen field all day?

Playing well and competing against an FBS school should account for something, but getting crushed is irrelevant.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is where the argument falls apart. Richmond and Towson both had some good CAA wins. Lehigh's PL wins, not so much.

Yet New Hampshire had arguably one quality win (beating Richmond, not a playoff team remember, AT HOME, 44-40), and they somehow made the field.

And - what a surprise - there's an FBS team on that schedule. Minnesota, whom pulverized them 44-7. Their other OOC games? What do you know - two opponents that Lehigh is being criticized for, Holy Cross and CCSU.

[Professor Chaos]

Who, not coincidentally, had three FBS games on their schedule last season. Richmond went to Virginia, Towson traveled to Kent State and Towson.

The other OOC games? Gardner-Webb, VMI, and St. Francis (PA).

All three of those FCS OOC games could be judged to be worse than Lehigh's. CCSU beat SFPA last season, one of their two wins. Webb and VMI had 3 Division I wins last season combined - two against Presbyterian, and someone had to win the game where Webb and VMI played each other.

But Richmond and Towson are not judged in that way, because of "schedule strength".

I find it fascinating that immediately you assume Towson and Richmond were more wronged because they went 3-3 against teams they fully expected to go 3-3 against.
Richmond and Towson don't need to be as concerned about their OOC schedule because they have a strong conference schedule. I thought both were stronger than Lehigh last year based on their quality wins, their strong showings in their losses, and the fact that Lehigh was not impressive against a few PL teams they should've handily beaten and unlimitedly lost to a team they should've beaten.

[Nova09]

Who, not coincidentally, had three FBS games on their schedule last season. Richmond went to Virginia, Towson traveled to Kent State and Towson.

The other OOC games? Gardner-Webb, VMI, and St. Francis (PA).

All three of those FCS OOC games could be judged to be worse than Lehigh's. CCSU beat SFPA last season, one of their two wins. Webb and VMI had 3 Division I wins last season combined - two against Presbyterian, and someone had to win the game where Webb and VMI played each other.

But Richmond and Towson are not judged in that way, because of "schedule strength".

I find it fascinating that immediately you assume Towson and Richmond were more wronged because they went 3-3 against teams they fully expected to go 3-3 against.

No one has ever said "Richmond and Towson should have made the playoffs because they played FBS games." I don't know why you think that. Anyone who thinks Richmond or Towson should have made the playoffs, or at least should have made the playoffs before Lehigh, cites the fact that they actually beat good teams. I have no idea why you're so hung up on the lack of an FBS opponent when a 9-2 Lehigh with any of their victories swapped for an FBS loss still would not have made the playoffs.

[gumby013]

Does anyone happen to have the the OOC win % for each conference for last year. Google searches are only showing me figures for FBS conferences.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Richmond and Towson don't need to be as concerned about their OOC schedule because they have a strong conference schedule. I thought both were stronger than Lehigh last year based on their quality wins, their strong showings in their losses, and the fact that Lehigh was not impressive against a few PL teams they should've handily beaten and unlimitedly lost to a team they should've beaten.


They lost one league game in three years. That alone is extremely impressive.

My biggest beef was the fact they Lehigh was forced to go undefeated to make the playoffs. That's boarderline absurd....

[DFW HOYA]

Does anyone happen to have the the OOC win % for each conference for last year. Google searches are only showing me figures for FBS conferences.

Strength of schedule has a lot to affect these numbers, but here it is:

Missouri Valley 23-13 (.638)
Big Sky 22-16 (.578)
Southern 18-15 (.545)
Ivy 13-11 (.541)
Patriot 18-18 (.500)
Ohio Valley 15-15 (.500)
CAA 18-19 (.486)
Southland 18-20 (.473)
Big South 15-24 (.384)
Northeast 10-19 (.344)
MEAC 11-22 (.333)
Pioneer 9-21 (.300)
SWAC 5-17 (.227)

[PhillyApp1]

Richmond and Towson don't need to be as concerned about their OOC schedule because they have a strong conference schedule. I thought both were stronger than Lehigh last year based on their quality wins, their strong showings in their losses, and the fact that Lehigh was not impressive against a few PL teams they should've handily beaten and unlimitedly lost to a team they should've beaten.

Amen....end of problem.....Lehigh/FCS teams need to schedule better OOC and win to get invite....in the end no system is perfect

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No one has ever said "Richmond and Towson should have made the playoffs because they played FBS games." I don't know why you think that. Anyone who thinks Richmond or Towson should have made the playoffs, or at least should have made the playoffs before Lehigh, cites the fact that they actually beat good teams. I have no idea why you're so hung up on the lack of an FBS opponent when a 9-2 Lehigh with any of their victories swapped for an FBS loss still would not have made the playoffs.

What was said was that "Richmond and Towson were more deserving of the playoffs than Lehigh." How was this gut conclusion reached? Through "schedule strength".

Towson beat only 2 teams last season with .500 records or better. Richmond as well only beat 2 teams with .500 records or better. UNH? Try... one.

Lehigh? They beat three, yet everyone complains about their schedule.

Why?

When Towson beats 2-9 William & Mary, 0-11 Rhode Island or 1-10 Georgia State, nobody complains about their conference schedules. But when Lehigh beats 5-6 Georgetown and 2-9 Holy Cross, people complain. Why is that?

Is it because of the presence of CCSU? That can't be. After all they also played UNH.

Is it because Princeton is on the schedule? Well, they finished at 5-5, miles better than any of the FCS OOC opponents of UNH, Towson, or Richmond.

Were CCSU and Columbia bad? Sure they were. But they're no different than Webb, VMI, CCSU. Richmond, UNH and Towson all had two on their schedule as well. So that can't be it?

What's left? Perhaps schools like Minnesota, Virginia and LSU?

[Sader87]

Scholarships will basically make all this a moot point in time. Not saying the PL squads will be that much better but the perception of the league as a "full (basically) scholarship" league with the concomitant better schedules that will bring about, will change how the league is looked at by human and computer alike.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Richmond and Towson don't need to be as concerned about their OOC schedule because they have a strong conference schedule. I thought both were stronger than Lehigh last year based on their quality wins, their strong showings in their losses, and the fact that Lehigh was not impressive against a few PL teams they should've handily beaten and unlimitedly lost to a team they should've beaten.

Your criticisms of Lehigh's close wins are on point. They won no style points last year. They, however, won the games.

But what is a "strong schedule"? If NDSU scheduled Rhode Island, Georgia State and William & Mary last season, you'd have been accused of padding your schedule with cupcakes. How much of "schedule strength" is reality, and how much is just perception?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Scholarships will basically make all this a moot point in time. Not saying the PL squads will be that much better but the perception of the league as a "full (basically) scholarship" league with the concomitant better schedules that will bring about, will change how the league is looked at by human and computer alike.

The most important thing is improving the quality of the league. OOC games become slightly less important when the league opponents are respected. The PL has a bit of an identity problem. There's schools that strive to be among the best in the FCS while others are content with simply fielding a team.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Scholarships will basically make all this a moot point in time. Not saying the PL squads will be that much better but the perception of the league as a "full (basically) scholarship" league with the concomitant better schedules that will bring about, will change how the league is looked at by human and computer alike.

It may change human perception. But it will most definitely not change computer perception.

[CFBfan]

The issue isn't not playing FBS teams, the issue is playing multiple Ivies and NEC teams, and not even the best Ivy and NEC teams.

Lehigh scheduled both Central Connecticut and Monmouth last year. Odds were that if ANY NEC teams were going to be beneficial for a schedule strength boost, it would be just one, maybe two teams. By scheduling two NEC teams, Lehigh basically guaranteed itself at least one valueless win. In reality, it got itself two valueless wins (CCSU at 2-8 was useless, Monmouth at 5-5 was little better). Both Albany and Wagner would up with 9 wins, and both would have been "good" wins. But when you schedule the NEC, you are basically walking into the convenience store and buying a lottery ticket. If you schedule Wagner the year they go 9-2 and win, terrific. But odds are you aren't going to catch that lightning in a bottle.

Note: Lehigh again plays a 2-8 CCSU team and a now independent Monmouth this year.

Lehigh last year scheduled two Ivy League teams: Princeton and Columbia. Again, this is two games against a league that a.) rarely tests itself out of conference, and b.) does not try to schedule for the playoffs and thus will likely be unconcerned about its non-conference schedule raising their power rankings. That means that you, again, need to beat a 7+ win team to get any kind of "value." In addition to scheduling "down" to play two Ivies, one of the Ivies Lehigh played last year was Columbia. When is the last time anyone scheduled Columbia and expected the Lions to help them move up in any sort of rankings? 1941? Princeton's 5-5 record again did not help. When scheduling Ivies, you can feel fairly comfortable that three, maybe four teams at best will help. Penn and Harvard are fair bets to fill two of those spots. Princeton possibly. But when you schedule Princeton AND Columbia, you are basically saying a hail mary that Princeton will be good.

Note: Lehigh again plays Columbia and Princeton.

Lehigh's fifth non-conference game was Liberty. You can't really fault Lehigh for that decision, as consensus was that Liberty would be good. Unfortunately, Liberty stumbled to 6-5. However, this was a risky game because Liberty is in the Big South. Going into the year, you could figure that Liberty would play two even average ranked conference opponents and two only: Stony Brook and Coastal Carolina. Coincidentally, who can name the last time Liberty made the FCS playoffs?

There are all FCS schedules you can create that will get the strong schedule strength Lehigh lacks. Instead of 2 NEC (or equivalent), 2 Ivy and 1 "up" game (as poor an "up" as Liberty was, we'll count it as an "up."). Schedule 2 CAA, 2 Ivy (NOT COLUMBIA) and 1 NEC. There isn't any reason you can't concurrently have home and homes going with both New Hampshire and Richmond, for example. If Richmond ends up going 4-7 they will be better than 2-8 CCSU, because THEIR strength of schedule will be better AND they will likely beat a decent team or two in the league. It's much lower risk (setting aside the risk of losing both games- in which case we will have determined Lehigh's playoff worthiness). Then play your traditional Ivy games, but lose Columbia's phone number. You can handle two 5-5 Ivies, you just can't handle a 5-5 and a 2-8. And if you want to continue your traditional rivalry with Monmouth, feel free. Buy a home game. You can survive it if you beef up elsewhere.

@ New Hampshire, vs. Richmond, @ Princeton, vs. Penn, vs. Monmouth. That's a playoff worthy non-conference schedule. And they are all academically strong-ish schools, you wouldn't even have to deign to play a Maine (who would probably fall all over themselves to get a home and home with Lehigh) or a Coastal Carolina or a midwest directional university.

Very well said ccd

[Professor Chaos]

Your criticisms of Lehigh's close wins are on point. They won no style points last year. They, however, won the games.

But what is a "strong schedule"? If NDSU scheduled Rhode Island, Georgia State and William & Mary last season, you'd have been accused of padding your schedule with cupcakes. How much of "schedule strength" is reality, and how much is just perception?
Even the power conferences have their duds each year but the difference between the PL and the MVFC or CAA is that the MVFC and CAA have multiple playoff caliber teams each year that gives the rest of the playoff contenders in the conference margin for error. They can lose those games without hurting themselves too much and if they win those games they have quality wins over playoff caliber teams to strengthen their resume. This is something Lehigh doesn't get in the PL so they either need to get that OOC or they're leaving themselves little to no margin for error. Thus you'll see Lehigh's OOC conference schedule critiqued much more heavily come playoff time than Richmond's, Towson's, or NDSU's.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The most important thing is improving the quality of the league. OOC games become slightly less important when the league opponents are respected. The PL has a bit of an identity problem. There's schools that strive to be among the best in the FCS while others are content with simply fielding a team.

Good points. But how much is lack of effort in trying to schedule and how much is lack of opportunity? Every CAA squad basically has one FBS game - some have two.

So, who?

* Villanova played us before, but now they're not returning our phone calls now. Historically they've played Penn, and lately they play an FBS a season.
* Delaware played us before, but they've got FBS, Delaware State, and (until this season) West Chester. Last season they played Bucknell.
* Towson wants no part of any PL schools, especially after the playoff loss. Beside they would rather play 2 FBS teams, like last season.
* Rhode Island already as a matter of course plays Fordham. Last year, they played an FBS game, and their traditional rival, Brown. They essentially have one slot.
* JMU has an FBS every season, and would much rather play two home games that are near-certain victories (St. Francis, Alcorn State) than take any sort of risk with a game vs. Lehigh.
* William & Mary haven't played Lehigh since 1992, and with an FBS game on the schedule, VMI, and Penn or Lafayette on the schedule, this doesn't seem like an option anytime soon.


That leaves UNH - which unsurprisingly has been on our schedules often - Albany (whom we played when they were in the NEC), Stony Brook (ditto), Maine, and Richmond. PL schools would be fighting for one of two precious OOC slots - OOC games that could doom the opponent come playoff selection time. Some of these games would be plane games.

Most of all though, the math doesn't add up. Seven PL schools are not going to take up 14 OOC at-large spots from the CAA.

[Nova09]

What was said was that "Richmond and Towson were more deserving of the playoffs than Lehigh." How was this gut conclusion reached? Through "schedule strength".

Towson beat only 2 teams last season with .500 records or better. Richmond as well only beat 2 teams with .500 records or better. UNH? Try... one.

Lehigh? They beat three, yet everyone complains about their schedule.

Why?

When Towson beats 2-9 William & Mary, 0-11 Rhode Island or 1-10 Georgia State, nobody complains about their conference schedules. But when Lehigh beats 5-6 Georgetown and 2-9 Holy Cross, people complain. Why is that?

Is it because of the presence of CCSU? That can't be. After all they also played UNH.

Is it because Princeton is on the schedule? Well, they finished at 5-5, miles better than any of the FCS OOC opponents of UNH, Towson, or Richmond.

Were CCSU and Columbia bad? Sure they were. But they're no different than Webb, VMI, CCSU. Richmond, UNH and Towson all had two on their schedule as well. So that can't be it?

What's left? Perhaps schools like Minnesota, Virginia and LSU?

Most rational people don't cite records as strength of schedule without considering opponents. Let me put it bluntly for you: ODU, Nova, UNH, Richmond, Towson, JMU, Del, Maine, and W&M were ALL better than the best the Patriot had to offer. Could Lehigh have beaten any of them on a given Saturday? Sure, but the odds would never be in your favor. Guess what happens when that many good teams are in one conference? Some of them end up with losing records. So, yes, Richmond and Towson did have stronger schedules than Lehigh, but not simply because they lost to an FBS and Lehigh didn't play one.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Most rational people don't cite records as strength of schedule without considering opponents. Let me put it bluntly for you: ODU, Nova, UNH, Richmond, Towson, JMU, Del, Maine, and W&M were ALL better than the best the Patriot had to offer. Could Lehigh have beaten any of them on a given Saturday? Sure, but the odds would never be in your favor. Guess what happens when that many good teams are in one conference? Some of them end up with losing records. So, yes, Richmond and Towson did have stronger schedules than Lehigh, but not simply because they lost to an FBS and Lehigh didn't play one.

What's frustrating is the fact that Lehigh beat the MVFC champ in 2010 and the CAA champ in 2011. Both on road too....

[Sader87]

The "jump' for the PL schools to being as good or better than the CAA schools is not that dramatic. The way some CAA people post here you'd think they actually were the SEC not the "SEC of FCS."

If it's done correctly (admittedly still an "if"....with the AI, no real "red-shirt" capability etc) the schools in the PL that want to make themselves nationally competitive (and I believe HC is one), will be able to do so in relatively short order.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Most rational people don't cite records as strength of schedule without considering opponents. Let me put it bluntly for you: ODU, Nova, UNH, Richmond, Towson, JMU, Del, Maine, and W&M were ALL better than the best the Patriot had to offer.

Please put the kool-aid down.

2-9 William & Mary? Please, no more need be said.
5-6 Maine? Three of those wins are against Georgia State, Rhody, and W&M. One came against 4-7 Bryant. The last came against 5-6 Delaware.

Let's not insult AGS posters' intelligence by throwing these two in the mix.


Guess what happens when that many good teams are in one conference? Some of them end up with losing records. So, yes, Richmond and Towson did have stronger schedules than Lehigh, but not simply because they lost to an FBS and Lehigh didn't play one.

They had "stronger" schedules because the ruler used to measure "strength" involves the addition of FBS games.

The CAA lost every FBS game they played last season. They boasted two godawful teams in URI and Georgia State, and another that wasn't too far off the bottom in W&M. As I've gone to pains to point out, the FCS OOC games chosen with the remaining CAA teams are actually worse than Lehigh's choices, choices which have gotten severely criticized. Yet the CAA teams are perceived as being "strong". Why? Not for beating up on Georgia State and URI. Not for ODU cleaning up in a down year for the conference. No - it's FBS games.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The "jump' for the PL schools to being as good or better than the CAA schools is not that dramatic. The way some CAA people post here you'd think they actually were the SEC not the "SEC of FCS."

If it's done correctly (admittedly still an "if"....with the AI, no real "red-shirt" capability etc) the schools in the PL that want to make themselves nationally competitive (and I believe HC is one), will be able to do so in relatively short order.

The PL Champ (auto-bid) vs CAA/A10 Champ (auto-bid) record in the playoffs is fairly close iirc.

[344Johnson]

1-10 USD 31
8-3 'Gate 21

Discussion....basically over. Hardly worth looking into.

[Go...gate]

Why are we still talking about this.

Lehigh didn't make the playoffs because they lost to Colgate. It not only cost them their AQ, but Colgate also had two losses to non-playoff teams in Albany and a last place South Dakota team.

And the Committee was proven right when Colgate went out and lost to Wagner in the first round.

If you play in the NEC, Patriot, Pioneer, Big South, OVC (most years) or MEAC you shouldn't whine if you don't get an AQ and have no quality OOC wins. Those league schedules are not enough.

I agree with this. Colgate's schedule last year, the last in a long line of declining schedules under Dave Roach, was not very good. Wagner and Lehigh were probably the best teams we faced.

[Lehigh'98]

Beating a dead horse over and over. Get rid of Columbia, schedule up. Conversation over. Is it Sept yet??

[Engineer86]

The issue isn't not playing FBS teams, the issue is playing multiple Ivies and NEC teams, and not even the best Ivy and NEC teams.

Lehigh scheduled both Central Connecticut and Monmouth last year. Odds were that if ANY NEC teams were going to be beneficial for a schedule strength boost, it would be just one, maybe two teams. By scheduling two NEC teams, Lehigh basically guaranteed itself at least one valueless win. In reality, it got itself two valueless wins (CCSU at 2-8 was useless, Monmouth at 5-5 was little better). Both Albany and Wagner would up with 9 wins, and both would have been "good" wins. But when you schedule the NEC, you are basically walking into the convenience store and buying a lottery ticket. If you schedule Wagner the year they go 9-2 and win, terrific. But odds are you aren't going to catch that lightning in a bottle.

Note: Lehigh again plays a 2-8 CCSU team and a now independent Monmouth this year.

Lehigh last year scheduled two Ivy League teams: Princeton and Columbia. Again, this is two games against a league that a.) rarely tests itself out of conference, and b.) does not try to schedule for the playoffs and thus will likely be unconcerned about its non-conference schedule raising their power rankings. That means that you, again, need to beat a 7+ win team to get any kind of "value." In addition to scheduling "down" to play two Ivies, one of the Ivies Lehigh played last year was Columbia. When is the last time anyone scheduled Columbia and expected the Lions to help them move up in any sort of rankings? 1941? Princeton's 5-5 record again did not help. When scheduling Ivies, you can feel fairly comfortable that three, maybe four teams at best will help. Penn and Harvard are fair bets to fill two of those spots. Princeton possibly. But when you schedule Princeton AND Columbia, you are basically saying a hail mary that Princeton will be good.

Note: Lehigh again plays Columbia and Princeton.

Lehigh's fifth non-conference game was Liberty. You can't really fault Lehigh for that decision, as consensus was that Liberty would be good. Unfortunately, Liberty stumbled to 6-5. However, this was a risky game because Liberty is in the Big South. Going into the year, you could figure that Liberty would play two even average ranked conference opponents and two only: Stony Brook and Coastal Carolina. Coincidentally, who can name the last time Liberty made the FCS playoffs?

There are all FCS schedules you can create that will get the strong schedule strength Lehigh lacks. Instead of 2 NEC (or equivalent), 2 Ivy and 1 "up" game (as poor an "up" as Liberty was, we'll count it as an "up."). Schedule 2 CAA, 2 Ivy (NOT COLUMBIA) and 1 NEC. There isn't any reason you can't concurrently have home and homes going with both New Hampshire and Richmond, for example. If Richmond ends up going 4-7 they will be better than 2-8 CCSU, because THEIR strength of schedule will be better AND they will likely beat a decent team or two in the league. It's much lower risk (setting aside the risk of losing both games- in which case we will have determined Lehigh's playoff worthiness). Then play your traditional Ivy games, but lose Columbia's phone number. You can handle two 5-5 Ivies, you just can't handle a 5-5 and a 2-8. And if you want to continue your traditional rivalry with Monmouth, feel free. Buy a home game. You can survive it if you beef up elsewhere.

@ New Hampshire, vs. Richmond, @ Princeton, vs. Penn, vs. Monmouth. That's a playoff worthy non-conference schedule. And they are all academically strong-ish schools, you wouldn't even have to deign to play a Maine (who would probably fall all over themselves to get a home and home with Lehigh) or a Coastal Carolina or a midwest directional university.

Great analysis. I would love to have the schedule you describe!

[Nickels]

Lehigh scheduled themselves out of the playoffs had the situation in which a loss came into effect. It did.

Quit dwelling and schedule tougher teams
Yep.

[heath]

IMO, an 8-3 Richmond or 7-4 Towson has a bigger beef than Lehigh did last year.

-1. Give Richmond or Towson, Lehighs schedule last year and neither would have run the table. Staying focused for 11-12 weeks and winning is very hard to do, no matter who you play. With that said, I look for at least 2 PL to consistently make the playoffs in the next 2-3 years.............Schollies will matterxnodx

[Kramer]

Beating a dead horse over and over. Get rid of Columbia, schedule up. Conversation over. Is it Sept yet??


I agree totally. We needed to beat Colgate last year. We let that one get away in the second half. It cost us a trip to the playoffs. I too wish we could stop talking about this, and move on to September!

I would like to see better OOC games on the schedule. It brings credibility, makes our team better, and frankly, it would be more fun to watch.

[DFW HOYA]

A few more thoughts.

1. At-large consideration is perception as much as than mere statistics. If Georgetown goes 9-2 in 2011, chances were good they still wouldn't be chosen with an at-large. In fact, an argument can be made that if you're Georgetown or Bucknell, your only path to the playoffs is winning the league title outright.

2. Improving one's schedules also involves expanding one's horizons. If PL teams continue to see a map where they do not schedule west of Harrisburg or south of Williamsburg, their road to respectability is further limited. Yes, this means scheduling SoCon, OVC, Southland, Valley, etc.

3. Three of the seven PL teams finished below 200 in Sagarin's 2012 strength of schedule numbers: Bucknell (207), Lafayette (215), Georgetown (222). If these schools see fit to schedule soft, is that OK, or should the league mandate schedule minimums? It won't, of course, but it's a topic for discussion.

4. Does the PL allow D-II opponents?

5. At sum, this remains a league where most want all the Ivies it can schedule and a higher ranked non-conference schedule. You can't have both.

[RichH2]

I agree totally. We needed to beat Colgate last year. We let that one get away in the second half. It cost us a trip to the playoffs. I too wish we could stop talking about this, and move on to September!

I would like to see better OOC games on the schedule. It brings credibility, makes our team better, and frankly, it would be more fun to watch.

I enthusiastically agree with you and 98, enuf. Lets solve our own issues w/o endlessly agonizing over them.. Camp starts in a couple of weeks. Thank God.

[TheRevSFA]

Please put the kool-aid down.

2-9 William & Mary? Please, no more need be said.
5-6 Maine? Three of those wins are against Georgia State, Rhody, and W&M. One came against 4-7 Bryant. The last came against 5-6 Delaware.

Let's not insult AGS posters' intelligence by throwing these two in the mix.



They had "stronger" schedules because the ruler used to measure "strength" involves the addition of FBS games.

The CAA lost every FBS game they played last season. They boasted two godawful teams in URI and Georgia State, and another that wasn't too far off the bottom in W&M. As I've gone to pains to point out, the FCS OOC games chosen with the remaining CAA teams are actually worse than Lehigh's choices, choices which have gotten severely criticized. Yet the CAA teams are perceived as being "strong". Why? Not for beating up on Georgia State and URI. Not for ODU cleaning up in a down year for the conference. No - it's FBS games.

A 2-9 William and Mary would have a winning record in the PL. It's a weak conference.

Also to hoya's point, if Georgetown went 9-2 and one loss was fbs, one was conference, but their other OOC games were wins against strong teams, they wouldn't get left out

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

A 2-9 William and Mary would have a winning record in the PL. It's a weak conference.

Also to hoya's point, if Georgetown went 9-2 and one loss was fbs, one was conference, but their other OOC games were wins against strong teams, they wouldn't get left out

Then why did William & Mary lose to Lafayette at home last year? Lafayette finished with a losing record in the PL.....

The PL has done reasonably well against the CAA. At least better than some WANT to believe....

[RichH2]

A 2-9 William and Mary would have a winning record in the PL. It's a weak conference.

Also to hoya's point, if Georgetown went 9-2 and one loss was fbs, one was conference, but their other OOC games were wins against strong teams, they wouldn't get left out

Way off base. W&M ravaged last yr and were bad. Lost to Lafayette, a sub 500 team in PL. Still throwing out the same western bias ,it it's PL it must be lousy. You have no dog in this fight ,so if you want to throw in at least be close to right.

[Franks Tanks]

A few more thoughts.

1. At-large consideration is perception as much as than mere statistics. If Georgetown goes 9-2 in 2011, chances were good they still wouldn't be chosen with an at-large. In fact, an argument can be made that if you're Georgetown or Bucknell, your only path to the playoffs is winning the league title outright.

2. Improving one's schedules also involves expanding one's horizons. If PL teams continue to see a map where they do not schedule west of Harrisburg or south of Williamsburg, their road to respectability is further limited. Yes, this means scheduling SoCon, OVC, Southland, Valley, etc.

3. Three of the seven PL teams finished below 200 in Sagarin's 2012 strength of schedule numbers: Bucknell (207), Lafayette (215), Georgetown (222). If these schools see fit to schedule soft, is that OK, or should the league mandate schedule minimums? It won't, of course, but it's a topic for discussion.

4. Does the PL allow D-II opponents?

5. At sum, this remains a league where most want all the Ivies it can schedule and a higher ranked non-conference schedule. You can't have both.

Lafayette 2012 schedule is an example of not knowing what you are getting regarding SOS. Our SOS was poor but we played William & Mary, perennial Ivy league powers Harvard and Penn and Robert Morris which won the NEC recently. Going into the season most would've said that Lafayette had one of the harder PL schedules.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Lafayette 2012 schedule is an example of not knowing what you are getting regarding SOS. Our SOS was poor but we played William & Mary, perennial Ivy league powers Harvard and Penn and Robert Morris which won the NEC recently. Going into the season most would've said that Lafayette had one of the harder PL schedules.

William and Mary has not been too hot lately, 3 winning seasons since 2005.

[DFW HOYA]

A 2-9 William and Mary would have a winning record in the PL. It's a weak conference.

Also to hoya's point, if Georgetown went 9-2 and one loss was fbs, one was conference, but their other OOC games were wins against strong teams, they wouldn't get left out

Geoergetown's 2011 non-conference slate is below. If they had defeated Yale and gone to 9-2 it still wouldn't have mattered.

Davidson (won 40-16)
at Yale (lost 37-27)
at Marist (won 52-28)
at Wagner (won 24-10)
at Howard (won 21-3)

[TheRevSFA]

Geoergetown's 2011 non-conference slate is below. If they had defeated Yale and gone to 9-2 it still wouldn't have mattered.

Davidson (won 40-16)
at Yale (lost 37-27)
at Marist (won 52-28)
at Wagner (won 24-10)
at Howard (won 21-3)

Stronger teams.

[ccd494]

You cannot say or prove Maine was not better than Lehigh last year. Was there a good win? No. But look at the losses. At Boston College (wipe it out, doesn't matter). Albany (9 win NEC team), Villanova (8-4), at Towson (7-4), New Hampshire (8-4), James Madison (8-4).

Put frankly, every team Maine lost to would have been the best team on Lehigh's schedule last season. Maine played a schedule in which 6 of the 11 teams were either in the FCS playoffs, FCS playoff contenders (in some cases on the fringes, granted), or in the ACC. After Maine concluded its regular season, you could look at it and say "That team is not a playoff caliber team this season." You know why? Maine was tested. Maine failed those tests, yes, but you knew what Maine was.

You keep ignoring the conference aspect, LFN. If you play in a conference where at least four teams you play (in Maine's case, Villanova, Towson, JMU and UNH) will be playoff-ish caliber, you can get away with playing a Monmouth or a CCSU. And, frankly, only four of Maine's conference games being against NCAA contenders is a down year. No matter who Maine schedules in the non-conference, the selection committee will be able to look at Maine and say "we know if Maine is playoff caliber."

Lehigh, and every PL team, does not have that luxury. Scheduling an FBS isn't the only answer- just schedule better FCS. Not every PL team needs to schedule 2 CAA's, it's okay to board a plane now and again. Or bus it to Ohio or Indiana or Illinois.

[Fordham]

Get some playoff wins
Play well against a good OOC schedule
Bitch about a lack of respect despite not doing either of the above

Do 2 out of 3 of those and we'll start getting respect imo.

[Lehigh'98]

Get some playoff wins
Play well against a good OOC schedule
Bitch about a lack of respect despite not doing either of the above

Do 2 out of 3 of those and we'll start getting respect imo.

PL has had moderate success in playoffs. Not like the big 4 conferences, but better than OVC, MEAC, Big South & NEC. Colgate had a rough loss last year, but the league has had some nice wins dating back to late 90's.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You cannot say or prove Maine was not better than Lehigh last year. Was there a good win? No. But look at the losses. At Boston College (wipe it out, doesn't matter). Albany (9 win NEC team), Villanova (8-4), at Towson (7-4), New Hampshire (8-4), James Madison (8-4).

Put frankly, every team Maine lost to would have been the best team on Lehigh's schedule last season. Maine played a schedule in which 6 of the 11 teams were either in the FCS playoffs, FCS playoff contenders (in some cases on the fringes, granted), or in the ACC. After Maine concluded its regular season, you could look at it and say "That team is not a playoff caliber team this season." You know why? Maine was tested. Maine failed those tests, yes, but you knew what Maine was.

You keep ignoring the conference aspect, LFN. If you play in a conference where at least four teams you play (in Maine's case, Villanova, Towson, JMU and UNH) will be playoff-ish caliber, you can get away with playing a Monmouth or a CCSU. And, frankly, only four of Maine's conference games being against NCAA contenders is a down year. No matter who Maine schedules in the non-conference, the selection committee will be able to look at Maine and say "we know if Maine is playoff caliber."

Lehigh, and every PL team, does not have that luxury. Scheduling an FBS isn't the only answer- just schedule better FCS. Not every PL team needs to schedule 2 CAA's, it's okay to board a plane now and again. Or bus it to Ohio or Indiana or Illinois.

At the end of the day it's about the best team, not the best confernce. The depth of the PL will improve over time with the addition of scholarships. Even without them the league has produced Top 5 teams, a Payton Award and Runner-up, National Finalist, Eddie Robinson Winner and Tons of First Team AA's.

[RichH2]

Owl
you have probably spied our future . Gate,LU,Fordham going up,LC also,need a new HC tho, Cross BU staying pat. GU looking elsewhere.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The PL has respect from the CAA given the ties between the two leagues.

If you ranked the top 5 programs in the Northeast since the beginning you have to include two PL teams.
1. Delaware
2. Villanova
3. Lehigh
4. UNH
5. Colgate

Umass would be there if they still played FCS...

[gotts]

Just follow this motto: win when it matters or STFU.

[RichH2]

The PL has respect from the CAA given the ties between the two leagues.

If you ranked the top 5 programs in the Northeast since the beginning you have to include two PL teams.
1. Delaware
2. Villanova
3. Lehigh
4. UNH
5. Colgate

Umass would be there if they still played FCS...

+1

[Pard4Life]

The PL has respect from the CAA given the ties between the two leagues.

If you ranked the top 5 programs in the Northeast since the beginning you have to include two PL teams.
1. Delaware
2. Villanova
3. Lehigh
4. UNH
5. Colgate

Umass would be there if they still played FCS...

Since the beginning?

No, I'd go:

1) Yale
2) Princeton
3) Penn
4) Harvard
5) Lafayette

I'd put Fordham on the list if they kept football and weren't D3.

[UNHWildcat18]

Okay so regarding UNH last season, they lost to a bowl qualifying team in FBS, I know Minnesota was not a very strong fbs team but they were not 3-9, 2-10 ectt. they lost in a close game which should have been theirs, to ODU who won the caa and was one of the best teams in the fcs. went 6-2 in caa play losing only to towson who was in a win or die scenario which they outplayed us by far. yes we beat Gstate and URI (AWFUL) but Delaware or maine or richmond are no slouches by any means. I will accept the fact that Towson or Richmond should have taken their spot, but im sorry even 10-1 Lehigh didn't deserve the spot due to the points stated in previous posts. Without trying to be rude losing to Colgate ruined it for you, the rest of the PL was well not that good..at all... and for OOC yes you beat liberty who beat SBU but realistically due to OOC and depth SBU was clearly a better team just had one of those lost that 1 out of 10 times. Other than that beating an IVY is no playoff accomplishment ccsu and monmouth doesn't help you much either. a low and middle of the pack pair of NEC teams. for last year UNH, SBU, TU, UR>>Lehigh and im not saying that CAA is so much better we have had a bad couple of years but the top 3 CAA (ODU,UR,TU) are still ultimately stronger than any PL team as of last season. I personally think Richmond comes out as CAA champs next year and makes does real damage in the playoffs.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Since the beginning?

No, I'd go:

1) Yale
2) Princeton
3) Penn
4) Harvard
5) Lafayette

I'd put Fordham on the list if they kept football and weren't D3.

Beginning of FCS/1AA.

[UNHWildcat18]

Just follow this motto: win when it matters or STFU.

+1

look what happened to oregon last year, they should have been in the NC(NOT ND), but they had a terrible game against Stanford... didn't win when it mattered..... xchinscratchx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

+1

look what happened to oregon last year, they should have been in the NC(NOT ND), but they had a terrible game against Stanford... didn't win when it mattered..... xchinscratchx

Terrible game against Stanford? The Cardinal were damn good! ND beat them btw...

[BisonFan02]

PL teams are more than welcome to make the trip out to Fargo. We would love to host more teams from out east in our OOC schedule.

[344Johnson]

+1

look what happened to oregon last year, they should have been in the NC(NOT ND), but they had a terrible game against Stanford... didn't win when it mattered..... xchinscratchx

Why should Oregon have been there INSTEAD of Notre Dame? Had they beat Stanford(which obviously they didn't and ND did...), it would have been Notre Dame vs. Oregon in the championship and Bama would have been watching from home.

[ccd494]

I'm not saying that I as a CAA fan don't respect the PL or it's teams. But you can't put the committee in a position where they don't know if you are good or not. I'm sure Lehigh was as good as some playoff teams, but there was no way to look at Lehigh and its schedule last year and be able to say that definitively. Yes, 10-1 is a great record. But what if someone went 10-1 playing the Pioneer and the bottom of the Big South and MEAC? That's not playoff worthy.

In the past, the PL has been strong enough to provide good tests in the conference. That will happen in the future, too. But right now, it just isn't, and the schools that want to make the playoffs aren't scheduling in a way that will make anyone take notice of what they are.

[Go Green]

Beginning of FCS/1AA.

I'd be very surprised if Penn's winning percentage isn't among the top 5 of Northeast FCS schools since 1981.

[Fordham]

PL has had moderate success in playoffs. Not like the big 4 conferences, but better than OVC, MEAC, Big South & NEC. Colgate had a rough loss last year, but the league has had some nice wins dating back to late 90's.

I agree and think that we had much better overall respect in the late '90's and early 2000's because of it. Since then it's eroded imo simply due to our OOC scheduling/results as well as how we have done in the playoffs most years since. Change those two things and we'll start increasing the overall respect the league gets imo.

[ccd494]

I agree and think that we had much better overall respect in the late '90's and early 2000's because of it. Since then it's eroded imo simply due to our OOC scheduling/results as well as how we have done in the playoffs most years since. Change those two things and we'll start increasing the overall respect the league gets imo.

I don't even think the PL needs to start winning playoff games before it gets at larges. Just win good non conference FCS games. When's the last time any PL team played a game outside its region? It's like every PL team is allergic to air travel. If you schedule yourself a Mickey Mouse bus-only schedule, don't be shocked when you get treated like a Mickey Mouse league.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't even think the PL needs to start winning playoff games before it gets at larges. Just win good non conference FCS games. When's the last time any PL team played a game outside its region? It's like every PL team is allergic to air travel. If you schedule yourself a Mickey Mouse bus-only schedule, don't be shocked when you get treated like a Mickey Mouse league.

Lafayette played NDSU and Liberty. Also Stony Brook (yes a bus game, but a good team)

Colgate played Furman, Syracuse, Coastal Carolina and South Dakota. They will play Air Force this year.

Fordham played Army and UConn, and I believe have Cincy this year.

For Lehigh I suppose Liberty is the only game out of the region recently in the regular season, but they played UNH and Nova often.

There are tons of FCS schools within driving distance for PL schools, and many of our traditional rivals are close by. Going far away doesn't automatically make a game tougher or more exciting.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Lafayette played NDSU and Liberty. Also Stony Brook (yes a bus game, but a good team)

Colgate played Furman, Syracuse, Coastal Carolina and South Dakota. They will play Air Force this year.

Fordham played Army and UConn, and I believe have Cincy this year.

For Lehigh I suppose Liberty is the only game out of the region recently in the regular season, but they played UNH and Nova often.

There are tons of FCS schools within driving distance for PL schools, and many of our traditional rivals are close by. Going far away doesn't automatically make a game tougher or more exciting.

Lehigh traveled to Iowa in 2010 to play Drake.

[ccd494]

Lafayette played NDSU and Liberty. Also Stony Brook (yes a bus game, but a good team)

Colgate played Furman, Syracuse, Coastal Carolina and South Dakota. They will play Air Force this year.

Fordham played Army and UConn, and I believe have Cincy this year.

For Lehigh I suppose Liberty is the only game out of the region recently in the regular season, but they played UNH and Nova often.

There are tons of FCS schools within driving distance for PL schools, and many of our traditional rivals are close by. Going far away doesn't automatically make a game tougher or more exciting.

That's fine. Lafayette and Colgate are doing it right. But Lehigh isn't. An example of Lehigh flying to play Drake is an example of how Lehigh apparently does not understand what it takes to get an at large bid. They are putting themselves in a spot where they HAVE to win the league to get a bid. They have fielded teams that are too good to be backed into that corner. Instead of flying to play Drake, play Northern Iowa! Play a Dakota school (well, not USD). There are schools out there screaming for games. It's not like Lehigh can't play these teams. For whatever reason, they aren't.

[RichH2]

Dont disagree with your overall point, but not true that schools are screaming for games with us.. Many offer one offs which we have taken from time to time. Very few of them will do a H-H. Suppose we may have to bite the bullet some and take the one offs. Other than UNH now, none of CAA will do a H_H. We'll see what Joe does over the next few years.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't even think the PL needs to start winning playoff games before it gets at larges. Just win good non conference FCS games. When's the last time any PL team played a game outside its region?
This was a quick check, corrections welcome.

Regular season only, last game PL teams played south of Virginia:

Bucknell: Davidson, 1987
Colgate: Furman, 2010
Fordham: Davidson, 1989
Georgetown: Davidson, 2012
Holy Cross: Florida Intl, 2003
Lafayette: Davidson, 1988
Lehigh: Wofford, 2000

Regular season only, last game PL teams played west of Pennsylvania:

Bucknell: St. Mary's (CA), 2002
Colgate: South Dakota, 2012
Fordham: Cincinnati, 2012
Georgetown: John Carroll (OH), 1976
Holy Cross: St. Mary's (CA), 1999
Lafayette: North Dakota St., 2011
Lehigh: Drake, 2010

[Go Green]

I'd be very surprised if Penn's winning percentage isn't among the top 5 of Northeast FCS schools since 1981.

I understand that there are a lot of ways to measure the "best team."

But if you just go by FCS winning percentage, Penn has to be up there. While I didn't formally calculate the numbers, just by eyeballing them... Penn appears:

Same or slightly lower than Delaware
Same or slightly higher than UNH
Same or slightly higher than Lehigh
Clearly higher than Colgate

Nova is a different animal, not joining FCS until 1987. I know that they've gotten the better of Penn lately, chances are Penn would have won most of the games in the 1980s had they played.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That's fine. Lafayette and Colgate are doing it right. But Lehigh isn't. An example of Lehigh flying to play Drake is an example of how Lehigh apparently does not understand what it takes to get an at large bid. They are putting themselves in a spot where they HAVE to win the league to get a bid. They have fielded teams that are too good to be backed into that cokrner. Instead of flying to play Drake, play Northern Iowa! Play a Dakota school (well, not USD). There are schools out there screaming for games. It's not like Lehigh can't play these teams. For whatever reason, they aren't.

Last seasons schedule was the exception, not the rule...

The season Lehigh traveled to Drake they played Villanova and UNH in the OOC. Please do some research....

Ironically, Lehigh traveled to UNI that year and beat them in the playoffs. 2-0 in the state of Iowa

@ Drake, Villanova, Princeton, @ UNH, @ Harvard was a great schedule

Lehigh deserved the benefit of the doubt last year. The previous two years they beat the MVFC champ and CAA champ.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's fine. Lafayette and Colgate are doing it right. But Lehigh isn't. An example of Lehigh flying to play Drake is an example of how Lehigh apparently does not understand what it takes to get an at large bid. They are putting themselves in a spot where they HAVE to win the league to get a bid. They have fielded teams that are too good to be backed into that corner. Instead of flying to play Drake, play Northern Iowa! Play a Dakota school (well, not USD). There are schools out there screaming for games. It's not like Lehigh can't play these teams. For whatever reason, they aren't.

How much of this is real, genuine unwillingness to schedule good teams and how much of this is old-fashioned arrogance and/or inability to see?

In 2006 Lehigh played Albany, Villanova, and Harvard.

From 2007-2009, Lehigh played Villanova and Harvard.

The same year Lehigh flew to play Drake, 2010, we scheduled UNH and Villanova (defending national champs). We won the league, got sent out to Northern Iowa, and beat them. We also had Harvard on the schedule.

2011 we played UNH and Liberty. Shipped down to Towson for the playoffs, CAA champs, beat them at their place.

2012 we had Liberty.

So literally, for five straight years we had CAA opponents - almost every single year playoff teams or playoff-caliber teams - on the schedule, never mention the victories over UNI and Towson in the playoffs. And the year we didn't, we played at Liberty, which was a preseason Top 25 team.

Through soft paternalism, fans on here tell us to "play good FCS teams" as a conference and as a school. We've tried to divine who the good FCS teams will be in two years time (W&M, Liberty, UNH, Harvard, even CCSU) and put them on the schedule. Then, unsurprisingly, soft paternalism rears its ugly head again. "You're not scheduling enough good teams," they say, as they themselves throw Boston College, Virginia, VMI, Gardner-Webb, Norfolk State and Bryant on the schedule.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Other than UNH now, none of CAA will do a H_H. We'll see what Joe does over the next few years.

Boom. Rich nails the problem.

[344Johnson]

Last seasons schedule was the exception, not the rule...

The season Lehigh traveled to Drake they played Villanova and UNH in the OOC. Please do some research....

Ironically, Lehigh traveled to UNI that year and beat them in the playoffs. 2-0 in the state of Iowa

@ Drake, Villanova, Princeton, @ UNH, @ Harvard was a great schedule

Lehigh deserved the benefit of the doubt last year. The previous two years they beat the MVFC champ and CAA champ.

Conference Champ beat Lehigh, lost to USD. Nope. No benefit of the doubt for you.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Conference Champ beat Lehigh, lost to USD. Nope. No benefit of the doubt for you.

That is a foolish comment. To force a team to go three years without a league loss is ridiculous. Especially when they've proven themselves against other conferences.

[gotts]

That is a foolish comment. To force a team to go three years without a league loss is ridiculous. Especially when they've proven themselves against other conferences.

When it's a soft league, I don't think it's that ridiculous. Apparently the playoff committee agreed with me.

Fact of the matter is this: Lehigh doesn't crap the bed against Colgate, they make the playoffs, get beat in the second round, and this discussion isn't even happening because a one-bid league got it's one automatic bid that everyone expected.

[344Johnson]

That is a foolish comment. To force a team to go three years without a league loss is ridiculous. Especially when they've proven themselves against other conferences.

I don't hear Boise State fans complain too much for not getting to go to a BCS game when they lose a game in the regular season.

[ccd494]

Lehigh deserved the benefit of the doubt last year. The previous two years they beat the MVFC champ and CAA champ.

My mistake, I didn't pile through old schedules, but each year has to be looked at individually. You can't get the benefit of the doubt from the committee for past performance/scheduling. The 2012 Lehigh schedule was a dog, and everyone knows it. The 2013 schedule looks largely the same.

And I seriously doubt Lehigh had Maine turn them down for a home/home. Maine has to beg borrow and steal to get teams to come to Orono.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My mistake, I didn't pile through old schedules, but each year has to be looked at individually. You can't get the benefit of the doubt from the committee for past performance/scheduling. The 2012 Lehigh schedule was a dog, and everyone knows it. The 2013 schedule looks largely the same.

And I seriously doubt Lehigh had Maine turn them down for a home/home. Maine has to beg borrow and steal to get teams to come to Orono.

Schedules are evaluated individually. * **

* Unless you're a member of a conference that schedules a double-digit number of FBS teams, and one of them wins.

** Or: You're the CAA, and your .500 teams automagically are assumed to be great, merely due to their presence in the CAA.

Which goes back to my original point. Scheduling FBS teams, win or lose, gives you "schedule strength".

[ccd494]

How much of this is real, genuine unwillingness to schedule good teams and how much of this is old-fashioned arrogance and/or inability to see?

In 2006 Lehigh played Albany, Villanova, and Harvard.

From 2007-2009, Lehigh played Villanova and Harvard.

The same year Lehigh flew to play Drake, 2010, we scheduled UNH and Villanova (defending national champs). We won the league, got sent out to Northern Iowa, and beat them. We also had Harvard on the schedule.

2011 we played UNH and Liberty. Shipped down to Towson for the playoffs, CAA champs, beat them at their place.

2012 we had Liberty.

So literally, for five straight years we had CAA opponents - almost every single year playoff teams or playoff-caliber teams - on the schedule, never mention the victories over UNI and Towson in the playoffs. And the year we didn't, we played at Liberty, which was a preseason Top 25 team.

Through soft paternalism, fans on here tell us to "play good FCS teams" as a conference and as a school. We've tried to divine who the good FCS teams will be in two years time (W&M, Liberty, UNH, Harvard, even CCSU) and put them on the schedule. Then, unsurprisingly, soft paternalism rears its ugly head again. "You're not scheduling enough good teams," they say, as they themselves throw Boston College, Virginia, VMI, Gardner-Webb, Norfolk State and Bryant on the schedule.

It's not soft paternalism. Lehigh's schedule was apparently fine up through 2011. That doesn't give you a pass for putting together a good schedule for 2012. Does Maine play Norfolk State and Bryant in the non-conference? Yes, largely because no one else is willing to do a home and home to come to Orono. But you continue to evade my central point- when you play 4, 5 or 6 playoff worthy or bubble worthy FCS teams in your conference schedule, you can get away with scheduling a softer non-conference (or soft plus a FBS pay day).

If your end goal is to make the playoffs, you should play games in the regular season that prove to the committee you are worthy of a playoff spot. Maine (for example) can do that by just beating the CAA teams that are on its schedule who are also vying for a playoff spot. If Maine stepped up and beat UNH, Towson, JMU and Villanova, it would have earned a playoff spot. Did Lehigh imagine going into the season that by proving it was better than all but one of the other Patriot League teams, it was worthy of an at large if necessary?

[RichH2]

My mistake, I didn't pile through old schedules, but each year has to be looked at individually. You can't get the benefit of the doubt from the committee for past performance/scheduling. The 2012 Lehigh schedule was a dog, and everyone knows it. The 2013 schedule looks largely the same.

And I seriously doubt Lehigh had Maine turn them down for a home/home. Maine has to beg borrow and steal to get teams to come to Orono.

From the horse's mouth, only CAA agreeing to H-H series is UNH. Did we talk to ME OR VICE VERSA DONT KNOW.

[Franks Tanks]

It's not soft paternalism. Lehigh's schedule was apparently fine up through 2011. That doesn't give you a pass for putting together a good schedule for 2012. Does Maine play Norfolk State and Bryant in the non-conference? Yes, largely because no one else is willing to do a home and home to come to Orono. But you continue to evade my central point- when you play 4, 5 or 6 playoff worthy or bubble worthy FCS teams in your conference schedule, you can get away with scheduling a softer non-conference (or soft plus a FBS pay day).

If your end goal is to make the playoffs, you should play games in the regular season that prove to the committee you are worthy of a playoff spot. Maine (for example) can do that by just beating the CAA teams that are on its schedule who are also vying for a playoff spot. If Maine stepped up and beat UNH, Towson, JMU and Villanova, it would have earned a playoff spot. Did Lehigh imagine going into the season that by proving it was better than all but one of the other Patriot League teams, it was worthy of an at large if necessary?

So nobody of note will do a home and home with Maine and Lehigh... I think we found a solution.

[ccd494]

Schedules are evaluated individually. * **

* Unless you're a member of a conference that schedules a double-digit number of FBS teams, and one of them wins.

** Or: You're the CAA, and your .500 teams automagically are assumed to be great, merely due to their presence in the CAA.

Which goes back to my original point. Scheduling FBS teams, win or lose, gives you "schedule strength".

Where did I say any of those teams were great? I said that they were either deemed worthy of being in the playoffs, or they were in the discussion for at large bids. THAT IS WHO YOU ARE COMPETING AGAINST FOR BIDS.

THE ENTIRE POINT OF PLAYING A REGULAR SEASON SCHEDULE BEFORE THE PLAYOFFS IS TO SORT OUT WHAT TEAMS SHOULD MAKE THE PLAYOFFS ON MERIT. You prove that to the committee and the world by playing and beating other teams that are in the discussion. Lehigh played and beat exactly zero teams that were in that discussion last year.

Maine didn't play a single "great" team last year, but they beat every team they played that finished with a losing record (BC aside). Lehigh beat one team with a winning record (Liberty). It isn't Lehigh's fault that Liberty disappointed- but Lehigh had nothing to prop themselves up when Liberty DID disappoint.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Where did I say any of those teams were great? I said that they were either deemed worthy of being in the playoffs, or they were in the discussion for at large bids. THAT IS WHO YOU ARE COMPETING AGAINST FOR BIDS.

THE ENTIRE POINT OF PLAYING A REGULAR SEASON SCHEDULE BEFORE THE PLAYOFFS IS TO SORT OUT WHAT TEAMS SHOULD MAKE THE PLAYOFFS ON MERIT. You prove that to the committee and the world by playing and beating other teams that are in the discussion. Lehigh played and beat exactly zero teams that were in that discussion last year.

Maine didn't play a single "great" team last year, but they beat every team they played that finished with a losing record (BC aside). Lehigh beat one team with a winning record (Liberty). It isn't Lehigh's fault that Liberty disappointed- but Lehigh had nothing to prop themselves up when Liberty DID disappoint.

You're absolutely right about this. But again, it goes back to my central point. The only way to "prop yourselves up" is the have an FBS team on the schedule.

Some percentage of the CAA's "conference strength" is artificially propped up through the presence of FBS games, whether directly, or indirectly.

[DFW HOYA]

I think the takeaway from this thread comes down to three points:

1. Fair or not, at-large selection is a perception of strength of schedule and visibility beyond its region. In earlier years, the PL had this perception; of late, they do not.

2. The de facto eligible at-large programs from the PL (Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham) cannot expect favors by maintaining a regional scheduling philosophy.

3. PL teams that do not schedule at least one I-A team per season do so at their peril for at-large visibility.

Left unsaid: the PL in-conference games do not improve strength of schedule as it does in other conferences.

[ccd494]

You're absolutely right about this. But again, it goes back to my central point. The only way to "prop yourselves up" is the have an FBS team on the schedule.

Some percentage of the CAA's "conference strength" is artificially propped up through the presence of FBS games, whether directly, or indirectly.

I disagree completely. There are numerous examples of FBS games working against teams to make the playoffs.

Richmond had an FBS game and didn't go to the playoffs at 8-3 with wins over Villanova and JMU (Lehigh didn't have wins of that caliber). If they play (and beat) Liberty instead of the Virginia loss, I have to believe they are in.

Towson had two FBS games, beat New Hampshire and Villanova, and watched those two teams go to the playoffs. Granted, Towson was 7-4, but they went 1-2 in the non-conference by playing Kent State, LSU and St. Francis. If they go 2-1 against, say, Princeton, CCSU and Liberty, I have to believe they are in. The FBS games screwed them.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I don't hear Boise State fans complain too much for not getting to go to a BCS game when they lose a game in the regular season.

If there were 20 BCS bids and Boise got snubbed there would be a lot more complaining.

[RichH2]

I think the takeaway from this thread comes down to three points:

1. Fair or not, at-large selection is a perception of strength of schedule and visibility beyond its region. In earlier years, the PL had this perception; of late, they do not.

2. The de facto eligible at-large programs from the PL (Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham) cannot expect favors by maintaining a regional scheduling philosophy.

3. PL teams that do not schedule at least one I-A team per season do so at their peril for at-large visibility.

Left unsaid: the PL in-conference games do not improve strength of schedule as it does in other conferences.

Not yet. I hope if PL does improve OOCs in PL games will attain mor enatl significance.

[ccd494]

I guess I am just going to leave this by saying this, because we are well past the point where we began talking past each other:

Your regular season results are your resume. Your goal should be to build the best resume you can to get into the playoffs. The way you do that isn't by playing multiple FBS teams, or by beating bad FCS teams. You do that by showing how you are better than the other teams competing against you for the same spots (your fellow applicants, to extend the analogy). Your goal should be to play and beat as many of those teams as you can, and failing that, beat other decent teams to show whatever little edge you can.

It is hard to bolster your resume by losing- regardless of the opponent. You can minimize losing's impact (a 40 point loss to Savannah State would get your resume put in the trash, while a 3 point loss to Oklahoma won't let anyone hold anything against you), but your case is made by who you beat. And, the crux of my argument is that Lehigh did not beat anyone. Liberty was expected to be that one marquee win, and they weren't. The PL was down to the point that only two teams had winning records, and Colgate beat Lehigh. So Lehigh's resume at the end of the season only had one name under "good wins"- Liberty. You have to stand out, and you don't have to do that by playing FBS teams. You just have to beat good teams no matter who they are.

[Go...gate]

So nobody of note will do a home and home with Maine and Lehigh... I think we found a solution.

Maine and Colgate should also schedule a home-and-home. I believe they played them home-and-home in the late 1990's.

[asumike83]

I disagree completely. There are numerous examples of FBS games working against teams to make the playoffs.

Richmond had an FBS game and didn't go to the playoffs at 8-3 with wins over Villanova and JMU (Lehigh didn't have wins of that caliber). If they play (and beat) Liberty instead of the Virginia loss, I have to believe they are in.

Towson had two FBS games, beat New Hampshire and Villanova, and watched those two teams go to the playoffs. Granted, Towson was 7-4, but they went 1-2 in the non-conference by playing Kent State, LSU and St. Francis. If they go 2-1 against, say, Princeton, CCSU and Liberty, I have to believe they are in. The FBS games screwed them.

This.

A 9-2 Lehigh team that got blasted by a Big Ten team still gets left out. An FBS win is a different story but nobody is a better testament to the fact that FBS losses do nothing for you than Towson. If the committee did not view their performance at LSU as a positive, I'm not sure how you could argue that any FBS loss helps your chances.

[Pard4Life]

Can't wait until there is real football to talk about.

[RichH2]

Can't wait until there is real football to talk about.

Lord, summer cant go fast enuf. Camp will help in a couple of weeks.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I guess I am just going to leave this by saying this, because we are well past the point where we began talking past each other:

Your regular season results are your resume. Your goal should be to build the best resume you can to get into the playoffs. The way you do that isn't by playing multiple FBS teams, or by beating bad FCS teams. You do that by showing how you are better than the other teams competing against you for the same spots (your fellow applicants, to extend the analogy). Your goal should be to play and beat as many of those teams as you can, and failing that, beat other decent teams to show whatever little edge you can.

It is hard to bolster your resume by losing- regardless of the opponent. You can minimize losing's impact (a 40 point loss to Savannah State would get your resume put in the trash, while a 3 point loss to Oklahoma won't let anyone hold anything against you), but your case is made by who you beat. And, the crux of my argument is that Lehigh did not beat anyone. Liberty was expected to be that one marquee win, and they weren't. The PL was down to the point that only two teams had winning records, and Colgate beat Lehigh. So Lehigh's resume at the end of the season only had one name under "good wins"- Liberty. You have to stand out, and you don't have to do that by playing FBS teams. You just have to beat good teams no matter who they are.


This.

A 9-2 Lehigh team that got blasted by a Big Ten team still gets left out. An FBS win is a different story but nobody is a better testament to the fact that FBS losses do nothing for you than Towson. If the committee did not view their performance at LSU as a positive, I'm not sure how you could argue that any FBS loss helps your chances.

It would help if you read the blog post xlolx

If teams like Lehigh were getting in consistently instead of Richmond, Towson, UNH, or Wofford this argument might have some merit, but it doesn't. Sounds like a great world to me - don't schedule any FBS games and your chance to make the playoffs actually improves xlolx

This year, UNH made it over Richmond. They both had a loss to an FBS team, played some low-rent FCS OOC games (ones that are as bad or worse than the same ones Lehigh are being criticized for - for example, UNH played 2-8 CCSU and 2-9 Holy Cross), and also had two conference losses. The only material difference was the head-to-head win.

Did any team in the CAA do anything observable in their conference schedules to merit strong consideration out-of-conference for at-large bids? Aside from larding up their schedules with FBS games, not much. In fact - and check if you don't believe me - the absolute best OOC wins came when both Villanova and W&M beat 6-4 Penn.

So, in a nutshell, teams from a conference whose best OOC win came against a team rated No. 69 in Sag, are criticizing a team's "weak schedule" whose best OOC game came against Liberty - who entered the final weekend rated 64 in Sag.

STILL laboring under the misconception that FBS games don't play a role?

[gotts]

It would help if you read the blog post xlolx

If teams like Lehigh were getting in consistently instead of Richmond, Towson, UNH, or Wofford this argument might have some merit, but it doesn't. Sounds like a great world to me - don't schedule any FBS games and your chance to make the playoffs actually improves xlolx

This year, UNH made it over Richmond. They both had a loss to an FBS team, played some low-rent FCS OOC games (ones that are as bad or worse than the same ones Lehigh are being criticized for - for example, UNH played 2-8 CCSU and 2-9 Holy Cross), and also had two conference losses. The only material difference was the head-to-head win.

Did any team in the CAA do anything observable in their conference schedules to merit strong consideration out-of-conference for at-large bids? Aside from larding up their schedules with FBS games, not much. In fact - and check if you don't believe me - the absolute best OOC wins came when both Villanova and W&M beat 6-4 Penn.

So, in a nutshell, teams from a conference whose best OOC win came against a team rated No. 69 in Sag, are criticizing a team's "weak schedule" whose best OOC game came against Liberty - who entered the final weekend rated 64 in Sag.

STILL laboring under the misconception that FBS games don't play a role?

If you're claiming to be a victim of a system and others are "getting ahead" because of it, obviously the best choice is to whine about it and hope someone listens, right?

Just sayin'

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you're claiming to be a victim of a system and others are "getting ahead" because of it, obviously the best choice is to whine about it and hope someone listens, right?

Just sayin'

It's a problem, but schools (or playoff people) can't fix a problem they don't know exists. Most people on this thread basically are trying to say that it's not a problem, and there's an easy solution. The only solution is to schedule FBS games, a concept that people aren't really getting.

[Gater]

Over the next three years Colgate plays:
Albany Twice
New Hampshire Twice
Delaware
Stony Brook
Eight Games against Ivies
Air Force
Ball State
Navy

That is an average of two CAA games and one FBS game a year with the rest being traditional Ivy foes. Obviously, some of the CAA teams weren't in the CAA when they were scheduled but I would imagine Lehigh can do the same thing. Even if you dropped the FBS games from Colgate's upcoming schedules you would still have two CAA games a year. Seems like Lehigh should be able to do that and not worry about what was happening when the league was non-scholarship since that model is (thankfully) outdated.

[UNH Fanboi]

Can't wait until there is real football to talk about.

I can't wait to watch UNH beat Lehigh yet again and end their at-large chances for another season :). Hopefully they won't still be whining about the 2011 game, but I know they will be.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I can't wait to watch UNH beat Lehigh yet again and end their at-large chances for another season :). Hopefully they won't still be whining about the 2011 game, but I know they will be.

Payback will be sweet after 2011. There will be a lot emotion invested in that game.

[Lehigh'98]

I can't wait to watch UNH beat Lehigh yet again and end their at-large chances for another season :). Hopefully they won't still be whining about the 2011 game, but I know they will be.

Does UNH return QB from last year? I'm playing the over if they do.

[RichH2]

I can't wait to watch UNH beat Lehigh yet again and end their at-large chances for another season :). Hopefully they won't still be whining about the 2011 game, but I know they will be.
lol as usual I expect a great game. Tough for us to win this one but you'll get a game for sure.xthumbsupx No whining about 11, bad call.xbangx Yup, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.xlolx

[Engineer86]

I don't even think the PL needs to start winning playoff games before it gets at larges. Just win good non conference FCS games. When's the last time any PL team played a game outside its region? It's like every PL team is allergic to air travel. If you schedule yourself a Mickey Mouse bus-only schedule, don't be shocked when you get treated like a Mickey Mouse league.

Serious question. When was the last time a CAA team played a game outside its region? Other than a few FCS teams, only a few each year play outside their region.

[danefan]

Serious question. When was the last time a CAA team played a game outside its region? Other than a few FCS teams, only a few each year play outside their region.

Again....the CAA conference schedule is strong enough.

The Patriot League is not.

[Pard4Life]

xbangx

[CFBfan]

Again....the CAA conference schedule is strong enough.

The Patriot League is not.
Don't you wish LU people would stop already and recognize the obvious?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Engineer86]

I can't wait to watch UNH beat Lehigh yet again and end their at-large chances for another season :). Hopefully they won't still be whining about the 2011 game, but I know they will be.

Ok I'll say it. The guy was a foot out of bounds. I was in the front row of the section. Happy. Now here is hoping Lehigh does improve its, schedule because I don't want to wait/hope for the playoffs for a great game

[DFW HOYA]

Even if you dropped the FBS games from Colgate's upcoming schedules you would still have two CAA games a year. Seems like Lehigh should be able to do that and not worry about what was happening when the league was non-scholarship since that model is (thankfully) outdated.

That "outdated" model is still followed by 10 teams in the Northeast, at least one of which figures to be on Colgate's schedules.

If a school can afford scholarship football (or among any sports), good for them. If a school can't afford it, can't justify it to the sport's budget, or simply won't justify it against the school's financial aid philosophy, it shouldn't be a disqualifier for good football.

[Lehigh'98]

Don't you wish LU people would stop already and recognize the obvious?!?!?!?!?!?!

Most of us do

[Gater]

DFW, it's not a disqualifier, it just makes it a lot harder. The Patriot League (with apologies to Pearl Jam) changed by not changing at all. Northeast football grew up and past The Patriot League. Albany, Stony Brook going to the CAA. The NEC with scholarships. The Ivies allowing kids of families that make less than $120K free tuition. It's all taken its toll. I love Colgate football and am encouraged by the direction it is headed Non-scholarship teams will always be able to knock off scholarship teams. Just like FCS teams will beat some FBS teams. I wish Georgetown the best and certainly wish they would invest in the program but I really happy that Colgate is moving away from a model that has seen better days.

[RichH2]

DFW, it's not a disqualifier, it just makes it a lot harder. The Patriot League (with apologies to Pearl Jam) changed by not changing at all. Northeast football grew up and past The Patriot League. Albany, Stony Brook going to the CAA. The NEC with scholarships. The Ivies allowing kids of families that make less than $120K free tuition. It's all taken its toll. I love Colgate football and am encouraged by the direction it is headed Non-scholarship teams will always be able to knock off scholarship teams. Just like FCS teams will beat some FBS teams. I wish Georgetown the best and certainly wish they would invest in the program but I really happy that Colgate is moving away from a model that has seen better days.

Well said. and the reason for PL's slump form 2005 onward. Between NEC and Ivies we no longer got the numbers of good players. Hopefully that worm has turned.

[Neighbor2]

I hear you '98.

I was disappointed to see this issue brought up again. For many reasons.

First of all, the Patriot League (and Lehigh in particular) is the current whipping boy. Put up the name of either one and you'll be belittled. So. . . why bother? Whining seldom produces the desired result. It's not natural. When you punch someone in the nose, and the reciever continues on, it doesn't help to complain the blow SHOULD have mattered. It either does, or not.

My suggestion to Lehigh is to move on. Thumb you nose at the doubters, and continue to do what works for you. To me, that means continue to play 2-3 Ivy League teams (for historical reasons) plug-in any other foe your institution likes the way it does things (regardless what others think about that program) and be open to playing whatever OTHER team comes calling. FBS included.

Right now, even if Lehigh goes to the FCS Championship game, Lehigh will be slighted for some reason, or another. The bracket will be criticized, etc. Let it go. Let others flex their muscles, despite all the warts they know their own program has. Play YOUR game, not theirs. Through it all, Patriot League teams, like Lehigh, WILL find their way on to the big FCS stage. They'll impress there most of the time, and sometimes reach the brass ring.

Please, NO MORE BEGGING!

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, it's not a disqualifier, it just makes it a lot harder. The Patriot League (with apologies to Pearl Jam) changed by not changing at all. Northeast football grew up and past The Patriot League. Albany, Stony Brook going to the CAA. The NEC with scholarships. The Ivies allowing kids of families that make less than $120K free tuition. It's all taken its toll. I love Colgate football and am encouraged by the direction it is headed Non-scholarship teams will always be able to knock off scholarship teams. Just like FCS teams will beat some FBS teams. I wish Georgetown the best and certainly wish they would invest in the program but I really happy that Colgate is moving away from a model that has seen better days.

I'm not sure Northeast football grew up inasmuch as the PL clung to an Ivy League model which separated it from the recruits that would have liked to play at Holy Cross but would settle for Stony Brook instead. If Mark Van Eeghen was a high school recruit in the PL era, he'd probably be told he's in the wrong AI band and would simply go off to Villanova. Scholarships doesn't solve the inequity of the Ivy Index, it only offers a check to recruits that would otherwise go to H-Y-P.

So if you've got $3 million in the football budget, write the checks. if you don't, well....

Georgetown has the worst of both worlds. It is sitting at the top of the Index so it really can't compete for the kids at the bottom tier that other PL schools can. It can't offer scholarships which takes somewhere around 90 kids off the table before it can make the first pitch for a loan, grant, and work study...if they have need...and if they qualify among the 16% offered admission each spring. LFN's recruiting ratings was the sound of the boat scratching the iceberg. This was among the weakest recruiting classes since Georgetown joined the PL in 2001 because the other six schools shredded Georgetown's prospect lists, which offers of free rides tend to do. But does anyone reading this think that, in four years, it will simply be "much harder" for nonscholarship Georgetown to compete for a playoff bid? What will be the pool of available and willing recruits as the cost of attendance approaches $65,000 at one school and $0 for the other six?

If the PL was truly honest, it would trust its schools to recruit and admit scholarship athletes at the discretion of each school, not a formula cooked up in 1980 to keep Penn from overtaking the Ivy League. Wailing and gnashing of teeth would surely follow, because that's not what Peter Likins and John Brooks intended. Certainly, scholarship football was not what they intended, the PL survived, and here we are.

But after 14 pages of discussion, the problem for the PL is that perception, unfair as it may be, matters, and to the rest of the subdivision this is still the league of the "Last Amateurs", and not a threat in the second round of the playoffs.

[heath]

xbangx

If the thread was about Lafayette making a playoff run or how your top 20 team was going to do this season, you would not be banging the head. JEALOUSY will get you nowhere. Win this year and let someone other than a puss toot your horn. You are over due,but blame that on coachesxnodx

[Neighbor2]

Georgetown at the TOP of the index. Question for DFW HOYA . . . is this true of Georgetown's basketball team?

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown at the TOP of the index. Question for DFW HOYA . . . is this true of Georgetown's basketball team?

In case you are unaware, basketball does not play in the Patriot League, they play in the Big East.

No other Georgetown sports are subject to the vagaries of an academic index and Georgetown still graduates over 90 percent of its student athletes.

...And no, I don't know about how an AI works for women's rowing.

[Neighbor2]

In case you are unaware, basketball does not play in the Patriot League, they play in the Big East.

No other Georgetown sports are subject to the vagaries of an academic index and Georgetown still graduates over 90 percent of its student athletes.

...And no, I don't know about how an AI works for women's rowing.


I am WELL aware.

So, why the differential?

Perhaps your effort should be to convince your institution to treat football the same as basketball. Otherwise, to me, all complaints you have about football capability have more to do with YOUR institution's priorities. Are you as vocal in THAT direction?

Again . . . why the difference?

[Fordham]

Dfw, I thought we went to a league-wide AI, no? That gives Gtown a huge advantage over Fordham and the next lowest ranked school in that they can say to a recruit that as long as they can be good enough academically to get into Fordham, they're good enough to get into Gtown. I'm not saying it's enough to offset scholarships, but how is that consistent with what you wrote?

[RichH2]

Oh , guys we,ve almost made it to preseason campsxbowx, do we really need to hijack our own thread to do another 20 pages on the AIxbangxx It'll just bring mplsBison back and noone wants thatxconfusedx

[Model Citizen]

[Georgetown] is sitting at the top of the Index so it really can't compete for the kids at the bottom tier that other PL schools can. ... does anyone reading this think that, in four years, it will simply be "much harder" for nonscholarship Georgetown to compete for a playoff bid?

Getting to the playoff might be easier for the Hoyas in four years. By then they could be in the Pioneer-- recruiting the bejeezus out of whomever admissions will let them take and competing for the PFL's autobid.

Headed for the basement now, in case dfw hoya crashes an airplane into my house...

[DFW HOYA]

Getting to the playoff might be easier for the Hoyas in four years. By then they could be in the Pioneer-- recruiting the bejeezus out of whomever admissions will let them take and competing for the PFL's autobid....

The school has made it clear the Pioneer is not a destination for its football program.


Perhaps your effort should be to convince your institution to treat football the same as basketball. Otherwise, to me, all complaints you have about football capability have more to do with YOUR institution's priorities. Are you as vocal in THAT direction?

Depends on who you talk to. Some probably think so.

But basketball (and every other sport at Georgetown) has the right to present candidates for admission and it's up to Georgetown to accept them or not. A number of basketball recruits aren't going to get in and they simply drop Georgetown from consideration early enough where no one pays notice.

So if you're a promising power forward, a rower, a goalie, or a center fielder, Georgetown can decide if you are admitted. By contrast, Georgetown football does not have that same right. All its football recruits must meet the PL's approval before Georgetown can decide to offer admission. You can be a valedictorian of your high school class, a high school All-American, or a candidate for the service academies, but if the SAT or your GPA doesn't fit into a nice little matrix developed by the league office, you can't get admitted and play football, even if you meet Georgetown's own institutional criteria for admission.

(Yes, I realize this is off-topic for the playoffs, so if you want to discuss this further, someone can take it to another thread..I can always discuss this at another time.)

[Pard4Life]

If the thread was about Lafayette making a playoff run or how your top 20 team was going to do this season, you would not be banging the head. JEALOUSY will get you nowhere. Win this year and let someone other than a puss toot your horn. You are over due,but blame that on coachesxnodx

... ... ... ok... xdontknowx....

[Pard4Life]

Sounds like you were reading the Ivy board earlier DFW.

I read that Harvard accepts football players that Cornell tags but cannot get through admissions. Now that must be aggravating. I assume Gtown is in the same predicament.

And I'm not sure what this has to do with OOC scheduling.. hi-jack! xrotatehx

[Neighbor2]

My only Georgetown point is this . . . any unfair athletic balance is due to Georgetown's own choosing. They can "look the other way" with basketball and succeed (like every other big time program) and likewise, they can "look the other way" with football, if THEY choose.

DFW HOYA has a legitimate concern, a problem. However, that issue is "in house," not an issue for the league GEORGETOWN chose to join.

[RichH2]

Ha, here we go back into the abyss of AI in the PLxbangxxbangxxbangxxflamemadx

[Bisonwinagn]

They didn't get in because there were a ton of 8-3 teams from Major conferences. Also Lehigh wasn't good last year and would have had around 3-5 conf record if they played in the Big Sky or Missouri Valley. It was pretty easy to figure out last year and was expected they would miss the playoffs. They need to schedule and beat teams from the major conferences to be considered.

[UNHWildcat18]

Now I am really excited for the UNH-Lehigh game... I think one of the CAA teams makes it to semi's/national championship this year(personally think Richmond)

[344Johnson]

Now I am really excited for the UNH-Lehigh game... I think one of the CAA teams makes it to semi's/national championship this year(personally think Richmond)

Good. I am sick of Sam Houston being our sacrificial lamb

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Saw Lafayette lost a key player for disciplinary reasons.

[CFBfan]

Saw Lafayette lost a key player for disciplinary reasons.

who'd they loose?

[RichH2]

At this point only a rumor. No confirmation. If true it is a body blow to Pard team for the upcoming season. No reason to post young man's name based solely on unconfirmed post.

[CFBfan]

At this point only a rumor. No confirmation. If true it is a body blow to Pard team for the upcoming season. No reason to post young man's name based solely on unconfirmed post.

i appreciate that rich as i'm sure the kid does too!

[Sader87]

Lehigh went 10-1 last year. Why didn't they make the playoffs????

[Gater]

And with that post, this thread makes it to the season opener.

[RichH2]

Ohhhh nooooo. Couldn't we just tell him to read the numerous threads.

[Sader87]

It's hot here in the East, even on ole Cape Cod...a little levity boys.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh went 10-1 last year. Why didn't they make the playoffs????

Thanks for adding reputation to this user. xlolx

[bojeta]

Overall, the article was a fair respresentation of the realities of FCS football. A little obvious to some, but an important read for anyone with questions. I fully understand the frustrations of scheduling, having endured many seasons in the Great West where finding opponents was like a lottery where the prize was a haystack needle, and you still had to find it!!
Correction to the article: Big Sky has 13 teams, and will play 18 FBS games if you include App State (I know....)

[Go...gate]

It's hot here in the East, even on ole Cape Cod...a little levity boys.

I believe it touched 101 in Princeton yesterday, even hotter up in Morris County, where I was last night. It was still 89 driving home at 10:30 PM.

[Engineer86]

I believe it touched 101 in Princeton yesterday, even hotter up in Morris County, where I was last night. It was still 89 driving home at 10:30 PM.

It hit 100 in the LEHIGH Valley the past two days.

And yes we need to improve our schedule.

[RichH2]

It hit 100 in the LEHIGH Valley the past two days.

And yes we need to improve our schedule.

Cool here at 98. No, lets go all cupcake and drive everyone nuts agin next year. Yup

[WrenFGun]

IMO, an 8-3 Richmond or 7-4 Towson has a bigger beef than Lehigh did last year.

No doubt. It was completely clear when UNH played Wofford that they did not belong, IMO. Hopefully will be better this year, but it was literally impossible to take Richmond over UNH due to H2H. Towson on the other hand..

[WrenFGun]

I disagree completely. There are numerous examples of FBS games working against teams to make the playoffs.

Richmond had an FBS game and didn't go to the playoffs at 8-3 with wins over Villanova and JMU (Lehigh didn't have wins of that caliber). If they play (and beat) Liberty instead of the Virginia loss, I have to believe they are in.

Towson had two FBS games, beat New Hampshire and Villanova, and watched those two teams go to the playoffs. Granted, Towson was 7-4, but they went 1-2 in the non-conference by playing Kent State, LSU and St. Francis. If they go 2-1 against, say, Princeton, CCSU and Liberty, I have to believe they are in. The FBS games screwed them.

This is the EXACT point I was trying to make but hadn't yet said. If Lehigh plays an FBS and LOSES, as they almost certainly would, they're 9-2 and not in the conversation..You can't argue they were not in at 10-1 because they didn't play an FBS because that's not the reality...

[RichH2]

Convolutions on top of assumptions permeated with speculation. Fellas give it a rest . Cant alter history, unless you're a TPartier, bootomline LU did not get in and will never have gotten in last yr. More concerned with this year and next.

[Southsider]

You got it Rich. This stuff gets old. Turn on the Open and relax!

[RichH2]

Yup watching bits and pieces right nowxthumbsupx

[Twentysix]

Your criticisms of Lehigh's close wins are on point. They won no style points last year. They, however, won the games.

But what is a "strong schedule"? If NDSU scheduled Rhode Island, Georgia State and William & Mary last season, you'd have been accused of padding your schedule with cupcakes. How much of "schedule strength" is reality, and how much is just perception?

We are accused of that every year, even our FBS games are called cupcakes.

Fact of the matter is most of the upper level bigsky/mvfc/socon/caa would run the table on your schedule (last year) cause its weak as hell. Their are certainly years when a pl team is really good, last year wasn't one. Lehigh would have been fed into the buzzsaw at NDSU again, likely the score would have been even worse than our last meeting and you still would have zero collective points vs NDSU. Case and point, USD was on the PL's level last year. Just read your sig quote.

Two years ago we played 2 PL teams and the end result was 42-6 and 24-0. Laf was handed a gift TD against 4th string players and Lehigh couldn't even get a field goal on the board. Some years the PL has a great team, apparently some years they don't.

Schedule better, win those games, then you will have no problems with the playoff committee.

If you need to, put yourself in the shoes of Montana or NDSU, look at your entire schedule including in conference, and think, would Montana or NDSU consider this game a cupcake? If the answer is yes, it doesn't count for much to the selection committee.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Their are certainly years when a pl team is really good, last year wasn't one. Lehigh would have been fed into the buzzsaw at NDSU again, likely the score would have been even worse than our last meeting and you still would have zero collective points vs NDSU.

If Lehigh had been "fed into the buzzsaw" that was NDSU last season you would have seen no more elated fan on the planet than myself, and, I suspect, the entire Lehigh playing and coaching staff. All they wanted was a shot that they felt they had earned, not only because they had 10 D-I wins but also because they had proven themselves in the playoffs as well.