Sporting News Ivy & Patriot Picks

[DFW HOYA]

Per the Ivy message board:

Ivy
1. Pennsylvania
2. Harvard
3. Princeton
4. Dartmouth
5. Brown
6. Cornell
7. Columbia
8. Yale

Patriot
1. Colgate
2. Lehigh
3. Georgetown
4. Lafayette
5. Holy Cross
6. Bucknell
7. Fordham (ineligible)

[centraljerseycat]

OK Patriot League fans, curious as to where you would rank Fordham in the conference had they been eligible?

[Lehigh'98]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;1975077]Per the Ivy message board:

Ivy
1. Pennsylvania - 2
2. Harvard - 1
3. Princeton - 3
4. Dartmouth - 6
5. Brown - 7
6. Cornell - 4
7. Columbia - 8
8. Yale - 5

Patriot
1. Colgate - 2
2. Lehigh - 3
3. Georgetown - 6
4. Lafayette - 4
5. Holy Cross - 5
6. Bucknell - 7
7. Fordham (ineligible) - 1

[RichH2]

Parity the word.
1. Gate Best vet QB and new DC.
2-5 Lehigh,Fordham,Pards. all with holes and talent
6-8 Bucknell,Cross,Hoyas more holes than talent.
My guess but no team is dominant on paper.

[Sader87]

I like the fact that HC is being somewhat overlooked here....HC may have been 2-9 last year but very, very easily could have been about 6-5 and return many starters, particularly on offense. I agree in general, the PL will be very balanced top to bottom as it usually has been.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1. Penn, 2. Harvard, 3-8 interchangeable. My guess would be Brown, Cornell, Columbia, Princeton, Dartmouth, Yale

PL as always is wide open. Colgate probably the team to beat by default since they did it last year, but they have huge holes to fill. Could see Lehigh, Lafayette, (and Fordham, unofficially) compete. G'town could compete but they're losing the two best defensemen they've arguably ever had and I just don't see them replacing them easily. (So, so glad to see Jeremy Moore graduate.) HC and Bucknell have lots of experience returning but haven't shown yet they're ready to turn the corner.

[carney2]

OK Patriot League fans, curious as to where you would rank Fordham in the conference had they been eligible?

Numero uno. Their defense is suspect, but they can probably outscore anyone in the Patriot League.

[Pard4Life]

Lehigh 98 is not far off... some differences though:

PL
1. Fordham
2. Lehigh
3. Lafayette
4. Colgate
5. Holy Cross
6. Bucknell
7. Georgetown

Ivy
1. Harvard
2. Penn
3. Princeton
4. Dartmouth
5. Brown
6. Cornell
7. Yale
8. Columbia

There will likely be a tie for first in the Ivy... maybe even three-way tie.

[bulldog10jw]

Yale will finish 5th or higher

[CFBfan]

Yale will finish 5th or higher

the refs will make sure of that!!! how are you bulldog?

[bulldog10jw]

the refs will make sure of that!!! how are you bulldog?

Doing well CFB, hope you are too.

[RichH2]

Gate 4th Possible, lost Ol and rb .Heavier load on qb but he is a runner think he will cope. D was atrocious last yr. New DC s/b able to at least make them a bit better, if not yeah 4th. Cross could be wild card with injured returning particularly at qb. Lack of speed and some difference makers IMO make them a 500 team. Heck Bison could also compete . Have an excellent athlete returning at qb. If he has learned how to be a qb they could be better. Nive skill players but outsized everywhere.

[Pard4Life]

Gate 4th Possible, lost Ol and rb .Heavier load on qb but he is a runner think he will cope. D was atrocious last yr. New DC s/b able to at least make them a bit better, if not yeah 4th. Cross could be wild card with injured returning particularly at qb. Lack of speed and some difference makers IMO make them a 500 team. Heck Bison could also compete . Have an excellent athlete returning at qb. If he has learned how to be a qb they could be better. Nive skill players but outsized everywhere.

Think back to what happened when you had Sullivan/Eachus and no OL a few years ago. When Eachus was hurt, Sullivan got crushed.

[bonarae]

My take on the Ivy:

1. Penn (many starters return here)
2. Harvard (not too many starters return, among these returnees are Brate and Hodges); 2nd stringers do not have much playing experience
3. Princeton (depending on whether DiBiblio(?) will return this season)
4. Dartmouth
5. Brown
6. Yale (this will be dependent on Varga...)
7. Cornell
8. Columbia

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

With the coaching staff in place at Lehigh I think the ship is on a pretty steady course. Colvin was a bit of a square peg in a round hole last year and the Hawks still won 10 games. They also got to see what life would be without Spadola. The OL and returning skill players are all extremely talented. The defense has experienced players and a star in Muhammad. Unless injuries hit this should be another very good year for Lehigh imo.

1. Lehigh 5-1
2. Colgate 5-1
3. Lafayete 4-2
4. Fordham
5. Holy Cross 3-3
6. Georgetown 3-3
7. Bucknell 2-4

[RichH2]

Think back to what happened when you had Sullivan/Eachus and no OL a few years ago. When Eachus was hurt, Sullivan got crushed.

Good point, I didn't think of that. McCarney a good bit more mobile than Sullivan. Is that enuf? If DC can give them some semblance of a D, could edge into 1st.

[Pard4Life]

Good point, I didn't think of that. McCarney a good bit more mobile than Sullivan. Is that enuf? If DC can give them some semblance of a D, could edge into 1st.

Don't think so... their offense is the same. If the OL can't execute properly then assignments will get missed and he will be clocked. Athleticism will help a little but not much. But of course, this does not apply to the Lafayette game... o/u 250yards rushing, 2TDs rushing... 200yrds passing, 2TDs passing...

[heath]

Watch out for Princeton and Holy Cross. Lean toward Harvard and Lehigh to win the title.

[DFW HOYA]

Too early for substantive picks, but the worst-case scenario for the PL is:

--Fordham sweeps the league but gets no at-large bid (6-0, 8-4)
--Colgate wins the title but also struggles out of conference (5-1, 7-5)
--Lehigh has the best out of conf. record but a 3rd place showing isn't enough (4-2, 8-3)

[Bogus Megapardus]

My guesses:

Patriot -

1. Colgate
2. Fordham
3. Lehigh
4. Holy Cross
5. Georgetown
6. Lafayette
7. Bucknell

Ivy -

1. Penn
2. Harvard
3. Princeton
4. Brown
5. Cornell
6. Yale
7. Dartmouth
8. Columbia

[Pard4Life]

Geez 6th? We ain't that bad...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm pretty mystified how Princeton is sneaking up to No. 3 on everyone's charts. They were 5-5 last season and I see little reason to put them above Brown.

[Go...gate]

Princeton probably 5-5 again (program development still needed in Tigertown) and I'm seeing Colgate at 5-7 or 6-6 (a lot of personnel losses, tough schedule).

[van]

Don't think so... their offense is the same. If the OL can't execute properly then assignments will get missed and he will be clocked. Athleticism will help a little but not much. But of course, this does not apply to the Lafayette game... o/u 250yards rushing, 2TDs rushing... 200yrds passing, 2TDs passing...

Don't count out the OL, Biddle has a way of always reloading those guys, might be shaky to start, but my guess is that by mid season the OL is much better than everyone thinks.

[Ivytalk]

Harvard gets Penn and Princeton at home this year, and that might make a difference in a close Ivy race. I'm sure that sitting-room-only crowd of 12K or so will push the Crimson to victory over the hated Quackers!xnodxxninjaxxhypedx

[Go Green]

My guesses:

Ivy -

7. Dartmouth


Ok, what's up with this? xconfusedxxconfusedxxconfusedx

[Tribe4SF]

My take on the Ivy:

1. Penn (many starters return here)


Looking at their depth chart from our game with them last year they lose seven starters on offense, and five on defense. Lose both QBs (Ragone and Holland), and all three RBs listed (Colavita, Jack, and Marsh), as well as starting FB, one WR, TE, and RG and RT. Lose best defensive player in DT Brandon Copeland, the NG, one LB, and both CBs. Doesn't seem like a team with many starters returning.

[Go Green]

Looking at their depth chart from our game with them last year they lose seven starters on offense, and five on defense. Lose both QBs (Ragone and Holland), and all three RBs listed (Colavita, Jack, and Marsh), as well as starting FB, one WR, TE, and RG and RT. Lose best defensive player in DT Brandon Copeland, the NG, one LB, and both CBs. Doesn't seem like a team with many starters returning.

Ragone is coming back with a medical fifth-year of elgibility. I think two of the RBs are as well, although I don't know which ones.

That being said, Penn's season will largely rest on whether or not Ragone has recovered from this:

http://larrybrownsports.com/college-football/billy-ragon-nasty-ankle-injury/162432/attachment/billy-ragone-broken-ankle

(Not sure if you can blow up the picture, but his ankle is nearly at a 90 degree angle from the rest of his leg).

[carney2]

My guesses:

Patriot -

1. Colgate
2. Fordham
3. Lehigh
4. Holy Cross
5. Georgetown
6. Lafayette
7. Bucknell

Dan Weiss is on retainer as a "consultant." He is on his way to your house, Bogie, as we "speak" to demand that you return your diploma. Ahr ya not payin' attention, lad? Do ya not ken what is happenin' down at Bourger? Ahr ya doin' a Rip Van Winkle on us?

[carney2]

No more guesses. This is how it will be:

PATRIOT:

1. Fordham - too much offense
2. Lafayette - Like a phoenix...
3. Lehigh - In contention all the way.
4. Colgate - "McCarney and what?" isn't enough.
5/6/7. Bucknell/Georgetown/Holy Cross = Pick 'em.

IVY:

1. Harvard - Lost a lot. Always have a lot. A recruiting juggernaut.
2. Penn - Too many new faces to repeat.
3. Brown - Put 'em here because...well, I just felt like it.
4. Princeton - climbing, but still way down the mountain.
5. Cornell - Why not?
6/7. Dartmouth/Yale - Pick 'em.
8. Columbia - So, what else is new?!

[carney2]

Don't count out the OL, Biddle has a way of always reloading those guys, might be shaky to start, but my guess is that by mid season the OL is much better than everyone thinks.

Based on Biddle's first scholarship recruiting class, he will be plugging a lot of freshmen into that OL. That will undoubtedly pay long term benefits, but in the here and now, you must hark back to that piece of football wisdom which says "There are two places you do not want to see freshmen - QB and OL."

[Pard4Life]

Based on Biddle's first scholarship recruiting class, he will be plugging a lot of freshmen into that OL. That will undoubtedly pay long term benefits, but in the here and now, you must hark back to that piece of football wisdom which says "There are two places you do not want to see freshmen - QB and OL."

Looks like you are the Rip Van Winkle here c2, as the resident curmudgeon you are the most optimistic.

Also not good to have inexperienced OL making up the majority of the OL even if you have an All-American around. Colgate does not have any alternatives. I don't know why everyone is picking them blindly. They will be no higher than third. I'd pick Lehigh to win it before Colgate.

[RichH2]

Good points P4L but I always tend to go with the team with the best vet QB in the PLIf OL as bad as it as a few yrs back for Gate McCarney will have a much tougher time w/o a good rb.If OL adequate he will put up points, key is whether DC can give them some sort of D.Expect LU to be OK. Bialkowski fits Coen's O much better than Colvin on paper. Remains to be seen if he can perform on the field. D has tremendous talent but very little experience in front 7. Pards will have solid D led by LB crew. O, it all depends on ZZ and finding a few more WRs.

[carney2]

Looks like you are the Rip Van Winkle here c2, as the resident curmudgeon you are the most optimistic.

Rip V. Carney, II. It has a ring to it, doesn't it? Just go light on the optimist thing. I have a reputation to protect, ya know.

[Pard4Life]

Rip V. Carney, II. It has a ring to it, doesn't it? Just go light on the optimist thing. I have a reputation to protect, ya know.

Well you haven't been this optimistic since 2009, so that's a good omen. Like the name.

[Pard4Life]

Good points P4L but I always tend to go with the team with the best vet QB in the PLIf OL as bad as it as a few yrs back for Gate McCarney will have a much tougher time w/o a good rb.If OL adequate he will put up points, key is whether DC can give them some sort of D.Expect LU to be OK. Bialkowski fits Coen's O much better than Colvin on paper. Remains to be seen if he can perform on the field. D has tremendous talent but very little experience in front 7. Pards will have solid D led by LB crew. O, it all depends on ZZ and finding a few more WRs.


WR is not much of a concern to tell you the truth. We always seem to find quality guys to plug-n-play in that spot.

Our issues are:

1) Frankosaurus
2) OL... we have been waiting for three years and now we finally seem to have the talent/experience formula to make these guys effective.
3) DL... only one guy with experience there, but the guys who left were somewhat disappointing in terms of what we thought they could do. They seemed to struggle when we lost depth at LB though.
4) Kicking game... need deeper kick-offs, punting could be better.

...otherwise, not much to be concerned about. It just comes down to be being mentally prepared and executing. And good coaching.

[Lehigh'98]

Preseason polls are pretty much useless offseason banter anyway. No reason to bat an eye at them..

[CFBfan]

Preseason polls are pretty much useless offseason banter anyway. No reason to bat an eye at them..

while that is true, it sure helps in getingt thru the summer / preseason

[RichH2]

Only a month more til camps. We should all make it. Only gets lethal when we start on best burgers again. lol

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ok, what's up with this? xconfusedxxconfusedxxconfusedx

Could be that I've pegged the Keggers too low and Cornell and Yale too high. Suffice to say that the three should be tied for the fifth spot. None will top Brown and all will top Columbia. Green's late-season win over Princeton last year cannot be discounted. Perhaps I was too rash.


Dan Weiss is on retainer as a "consultant." He is on his way to your house, Bogie, as we "speak" to demand that you return your diploma. Ahr ya not payin' attention, lad? Do ya not ken what is happenin' down at Bourger? Ahr ya doin' a Rip Van Winkle on us?

It is what it is. Lots of new scholarship players but they're freshmen. None will play much, if at all. Loss of the Frankosaurus-adverse DB from Don Bosco Prep (now at Albany) will be a factor as will the rash of pre-season injuries and surgeries. Yeah, we'll beat Sacred Heart, but you have to think that W&M has it out for us after last year's storm-delayed win. And do you really think that our Penn streak will continue this year at Franklin? Maybe, just maybe, we take Bucknell but next up are Harvard and Princeton - both on the road. Our poor fortune vs. Princeton matches only our good fortune vs. Penn of late but I don't think we win either with this crew.

Now we get to the to the Pards' inevitable late-season fail point - Holy Cross, Georgetown, Colgate and Fordham. We win one of those four. Finally come the Brownie Girls, of course, for #149. I always assume we'll rip their stained panties to shreds, but that still leaves us at 4-7 or 3-8 for the season. Not good enough.

[Pard4Life]

Could be that I've pegged the Keggers too low and Cornell and Yale too high. Suffice to say that the three should be tied for the fifth spot. None will top Brown and all will top Columbia. Green's late-season win over Princeton last year cannot be discounted. Perhaps I was too rash.



It is what it is. Lots of new scholarship players but they're freshmen. None will play much, if at all. Loss of the Frankosaurus-adverse DB from Don Bosco Prep (now at Albany) will be a factor as will the rash of pre-season injuries and surgeries. Yeah, we'll beat Sacred Heart, but you have to think that W&M has it out for us. And do you really think that our Penn streak will continue this year at Franklin? Maybe, just maybe, we take Bucknell but next up are Harvard and Princeton - both on the road. Our poor fortune vs. Princeton matches only our good fortune vs. Penn of late but I don't think we win either with this crew.

Now we get to the to the Pards' inevitable late-season fail point - Holy Cross, Georgetown, Colgate and Fordham. We win one of those four. Finally come the Brownie Girls, of course, for #149. I always assume we'll rip their stained panties to shreds, but that still leaves us at 4-7 or 3-8 for the season. Not good enough.

I cannot comprehend the Penn streak... we are way overdue for a bad loss. In 2010, when we were terrible we nearly won the darn game with two TDs on a DL fumble return and blocked punt... I think. I think we had less than 100yrds of offense but Penn scored the go-ahead with 8min to go. And they had like a 2-1 possession time too. How does the curse explain this? c2? Bogie? ... Ivytalk?

[carney2]

Well you haven't been this optimistic since 2009, so that's a good omen.

I may be overstating things a mite with some of my predictions, but this team has real promise. Two things have me seriously looking forward to the season:

1. ZZ has the potential to be one of the best ever on the hill. And, the incoming freshman appears to be from the same mold. Is there anything more important on a Patriot League team than the QB?

2. The biggest hole over the past 3 years has been the OL. Even average or slightly above for this year makes this team a serious contender. I think that low bar is a done deal, but I'm betting they're better than that.

All the other positives are just so much icing.

Bogie is correct in his assessment of the OOC schedule. vs. Sacred Heart, W&M, Penn, Princeton and Harvard, I see the Pards going 2-3. vs. the PL however, I see 5-1 or 4-2. If those losses include Fordham, who doesn't count, this could be a big time rebound year, even at 6-5.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I cannot comprehend the Penn streak... we are way overdue for a bad loss. In 2010, when we were terrible we nearly won the darn game with two TDs on a DL fumble return and blocked punt... I think. I think we had less than 100yrds of offense but Penn scored the go-ahead with 8min to go. And they had like a 2-1 possession time too. How does the curse explain this? c2? Bogie? ... Ivytalk?

Maybe it's because of the rivalry factor. You have to keep in mind that Penn and Lafayette each are the other's longest, most significant OOC rival. We beat out Penn for a national title (a long time ago). There's a long-standing, historical connection between the schools regarding circumstances outside football. Penn's players don't have to ask, "who is Lafayette?" Players on both teams are psyched for the game.

[carney2]

I cannot comprehend the Penn streak... we are way overdue for a bad loss. In 2010, when we were terrible we nearly won the darn game with two TDs on a DL fumble return and blocked punt... I think. I think we had less than 100yrds of offense but Penn scored the go-ahead with 8min to go. And they had like a 2-1 possession time too. How does the curse explain this? c2? Bogie? ... Ivytalk?

The Curse is not a simple thing to comprehend - or explain. The gods throw us bones here and there, but the overall result is always the same. Currently they are dangling a Quaker in front of us, but you will note that John, Tigger and the 'gater continue to push us around like a 5 year old girl's doll carriage. The football minds explain the Penn phenomenon simply as Penn's first game of the year vs. Lafayette's 2nd or, as this year, 3rd. There ya go, some logic to explain the unexplainable because those guys are better than us year in and year out. The gods toying with us is the only explanation that makes any sense. I even remember the year when Lafayette got way up at the half and The Frankosaurs played the entire second half with his patented prevent offense. The gods were so busy laughing that they forgot to take the pins out of their Al Bagnoli doll.

[RichH2]

Is Ragnone back for 8th yr at Penn?

[Go Green]

Is Ragnone back for 8th yr at Penn?

Yes, along with a couple of other players. :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yes, along with a couple of other players. :)


More than Bluto?

[RichH2]

More than Bluto?

xlolx I just despise them. Not likely we'll play again for some time so take joy in Pards kicking the cr@p outta dem

[heath]

Just as years past, the LC faithful will speak up loud and proud early,but please guys. Learn to shut up and wait to open your mouth when it really makes sense. You put a bulls eye on the team with all the crap and smack you speak preseason. Enjoy your 5 or 6 win season and pray for a coaching change.

[Pard4Life]

I'd take bets that Penn probably has the most "hate arrows" pointed at them... if you can imagine it in flow chart form. Sure, Lehigh hates LC, LC hates LU, both have a rivalry against Bucknell but it's not at obnoxious levels. Princeton and Harvard don't like each other. LC doesn't like Princeton but they don't care about us.

But one thing in common, they all hate Penn.

[RichH2]

I'd take bets that Penn probably has the most "hate arrows" pointed at them... if you can imagine it in flow chart form. Sure, Lehigh hates LC, LC hates LU, both have a rivalry against Bucknell but it's not at obnoxious levels. Princeton and Harvard don't like each other. LC doesn't like Princeton but they don't care about us.

But one thing in common, they all hate Penn.

YUP!

[carney2]

pray for a coaching change.

There ya go. You're not a complete jerk. Just give it a little effort every now and again.

[Ivytalk]

I'd take bets that Penn probably has the most "hate arrows" pointed at them... if you can imagine it in flow chart form. Sure, Lehigh hates LC, LC hates LU, both have a rivalry against Bucknell but it's not at obnoxious levels. Princeton and Harvard don't like each other. LC doesn't like Princeton but they don't care about us.

But one thing in common, they all hate Penn.

Hating Penn is like hating your worthless wannabe brother-in-law who pretends to be someone he's not. Like an Ivy Leaguer.xblehxxthumbsdownxxshakefistxxasswhipxxani m_chaix

[ngineer]

I'd take bets that Penn probably has the most "hate arrows" pointed at them... if you can imagine it in flow chart form. Sure, Lehigh hates LC, LC hates LU, both have a rivalry against Bucknell but it's not at obnoxious levels. Princeton and Harvard don't like each other. LC doesn't like Princeton but they don't care about us.

But one thing in common, WE all hate Penn.

Fixed it for ya'! (;-)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hating Penn is like hating your worthless wannabe brother-in-law who pretends to be someone he's not. Like an Ivy Leaguer.

My brother-in-law claims to be an Ivy Leaguer and he is as obnoxious as they come. Think plaid shorts, pink polo shirts, bowties and 1980's round, horn-rimmed glasses; otherwise resembles Gumby. His only saving grace is that he, too, hates Penn.

The fact that he went to Penn really has no bearing at all on the subject.







EDIT - Speaking of which, from now on all posts by MplsBison in Patriot League threads will be challenged by Gumby rather than Annoying Orange (who has dutifully served his purpose thus far). Hey Bison! Hey . . . Hey Bison!

[RichH2]

Glad to see unanimity in the detestation of Penn.
IMO, Princeton will be a good bit better than last yr.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Glad to see unanimity in the detestation of Penn.
IMO, Princeton will be a good bit better than last yr.

I agree. I think Princeton will once again be a tough out. The coach has recruited well the last couple of years so there's a good amount of talent. It appears he's also forged a bit of an identity for the Tigers.

I'm glad Lehigh gets to play the Tigers with 2 games under their belt. Plus, the Hawks always seem to play well under the lights down there.

[CFBfan]

I agree. I think Princeton will once again be a tough out. The coach has recruited well the last couple of years so there's a good amount of talent. It appears he's also forged a bit of an identity for the Tigers.

I'm glad Lehigh gets to play the Tigers with 2 games under their belt. Plus, the Hawks always seem to play well under the lights down there.

Fantastic stadium and even better setting for a night game, enjoy!

[Go Green]

It appears he's also forged a bit of an identity for the Tigers.

Part of that identity is "getting spanked by Dartmouth."

Since Surace took over at Princeton, Dartmouth has won 31-0, 24-17, and 35-21.

I fully expect the trend to continue in 2013.

:D

[Pard4Life]

LFN was is dismissive of Princeton... I wonder what game he was watching last year, since the Tigers made a real go of it... Plus I saw them two times last year... they will be a tough team to beat. The talent was not all there, but the attitude was.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

LFN was is dismissive of Princeton... I wonder what game he was watching last year, since the Tigers made a real go of it... Plus I saw them two times last year... they will be a tough team to beat. The talent was not all there, but the attitude was.

If Princeton finishes 6-4 last year Lehigh makes the playoffs imo.

[RichH2]

Princeton always comes to play. Last few yrs not enuf talent. That will not be so this coming season.

[Pard4Life]

If Princeton finishes 6-4 last year Lehigh makes the playoffs imo.

No.... because South Dakota beat Colgate, Lehigh did not deserve a playoff bid. Concrete logic.

[Pard4Life]

Princeton always comes to play. Last few yrs not enuf talent. That will not be so this coming season.

Princeton is the New York Frickin' Giants practically... what are you talking about???

[DFW HOYA]

If Princeton finishes 6-4 last year Lehigh makes the playoffs imo.

No, if Lehigh beats Colgate, it makes the playoffs. The PL was not considered a two bid league in 2012, and certainly not in 2011 when Georgetown was 8-3.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

No, if Lehigh beats Colgate, it makes the playoffs. The PL was not considered a two bid league in 2012 and 2013 is open for discussion.

Lehigh needed another "quality/solid" win on their resume and Princeton would have been that. Lehigh was right on the cut line last year, that is well known. To say they weren't "considered" is flat out wrong.

Lehigh fans are hopeful Princeton emerges as a second quality OOC opponent this year. I don't have much faith in Monmouth and Columbia. CCSU has some potential imo.

[RichH2]

Princeton is the New York Frickin' Giants practically... what are you talking about???

:) Only for a select few like pards. They s/b much improved , at least for depth. Doubt they can challenge for IL title yet but closer.

[CFBfan]

Lehigh needed another "quality/solid" win on their resume and Princeton would have been that. Lehigh was right on the cut line last year, that is well known. To say they weren't "considered" is flat out wrong.

Lehigh fans are hopeful Princeton emerges as a second quality OOC opponent this year. I don't have much faith in Monmouth and Columbia. CCSU has some potential imo.

Princeton would NOT have been a "quality/so;id" win to get you into the playoffs....now way (imo) and remember....GU beat them with a 2nd and 3rd string QB!!!!!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Princeton would NOT have been a "quality/so;id" win to get you into the playoffs....now way (imo) and remember....GU beat them with a 2nd and 3rd string QB!!!!!

At 6-4, with a win over Harvard, Princeton would have been a solid win. I consider beating a Top 40 team as a solid win.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL strength of schedule is a drawback. Outside the PL/Ivy universe, no one reads "Princeton" and "strength of schedule" in the same discussion when you've got Big Sky and Missouri Valley and SoCon teams scheduling much more aggressively.

This is a question that should be added to LFN's list for PL media day--what is your team's scheduling strategy going forward in this decade?

Colgate and Fordham seem to be in the lead on this and while they might take a few bumps in the road, they are establishing themselves as creditable opponents. Way, way in the back is Georgetown, whose funding precludes any meaningful out of region opponents. But the rest of the group --Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Bucknell -- have to figure out how much they will tread on foreign territory to build a schedule worthy of at-large consideration; otherwise, you will have more teams with 8+ wins sitting at home in late November.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The PL strength of schedule is a drawback. Outside the PL/Ivy universe, no one reads "Princeton" and "strength of schedule" in the same discussion when you've got Big Sky and Missouri Valley and SoCon teams scheduling much more aggressively.

This is a question that should be added to LFN's list for PL media day--what is your team's scheduling strategy going forward in this decade?

Colgate and Fordham seem to be in the lead on this and while they might take a few bumps in the road, they are establishing themselves as creditable opponents. Way, way in the back is Georgetown, whose funding precludes any meaningful out of region opponents. But the rest of the group --Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Bucknell -- have to figure out how much they will tread on foreign territory to build a schedule worthy of at-large consideration; otherwise, you will have more teams with 8+ wins sitting at home in late November.

This was discussed in another thread recently..

For Lehigh it should be - 1 Elite/Consistent Top 15/20 team (UNH, Villanova, JMU, Wofford, Delaware), 1 Consistently good team (Liberty, Coastal Carolina, EKU, EIU, Albany etc.), 2 Ivies and a cupcake. FBS games should be scheduled every 2 or 3 years imo.

I think it's important to maintain 6 home games. That should not be a problem since Lehigh has an attractive home venue. This year Lehigh is sacrificing a bit by only playing 5 games at Goodman. Just another reason why getting a 12th game was almost impossible...

The product on the field still means more than the schedule imo. If the league improves as a whole then OOC games become a little important.

[RichH2]

Unfortunately we have no clue as to what LU's future plan for scheduling may be. It is hard enuf just getting the schedule for the upcoming season much less future schedules.

I like owl's overall scheme with an occasional FBS game for spice. For LU fans it will continue to be an annual surprise other than PL games.

[Go Green]

The PL strength of schedule is a drawback. Outside the PL/Ivy universe, no one reads "Princeton" and "strength of schedule" in the same discussion when you've got Big Sky and Missouri Valley and SoCon teams scheduling much more aggressively.

Out of curiousity, would the rest of the universe read "Harvard" or "Penn" and "strength of schedule" in that discussion?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Out of curiousity, would the rest of the universe read "Harvard" or "Penn" and "strength of schedule" in that discussion?

It would imo. Lehigh got credit for beating a couple good (Gavin Hoffman led) Penn and (Fitzpatrick/Dawson led) Harvard teams in the early 2000's. Likewise with Colgate and Lafayette beating quality IL opponents during their playoff seasons.

There's a fine line between scheduling too hard and too easy. The key is to schedule just well enough to garner a home game or two imo. It's very difficult to win more than 1 road game in the playoffs. So 8-3 with a tough schedule might get you in the dance but the odds are you'll be on the road and unlikely to advance. I don't think JMU gets enough credit for what they did in 2004.

[CFBfan]

This was discussed in another thread recently..

For Lehigh it should be - 1 Elite/Consistent Top 15/20 team (UNH, Villanova, JMU, Wofford, Delaware), 1 Consistently good team (Liberty, Coastal Carolina, EKU, EIU, Albany etc.), 2 Ivies and a cupcake. FBS games should be scheduled every 2 or 3 years imo.

I think it's important to maintain 6 home games. That should not be a problem since Lehigh has an attractive home venue. This year Lehigh is sacrificing a bit by only playing 5 games at Goodman. Just another reason why getting a 12th game was almost impossible...

The product on the field still means more than the schedule imo. If the league improves as a whole then OOC games become a little important.

so assuming you are correct, until the league improves as a whole you can bitch when you're left out of the playoffs because you won't step up ooc.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

so assuming you are correct, until the league improves as a whole you can bitch when you're left out of the playoffs because you won't step up ooc.

Lehigh's OOC schedules, in general, have been very solid. In 2010 Lehigh faced two Top 10 CAA teams, 'Nova/UNH. In 2011 Liberty and UNH were both ranked when they faced Lehigh. Last year was really the only "down year". This year, while not the toughest, is an improvement. Until Lehigh releases their 2014 slate I think it's too early to say they won't step up their OOC scheduling.

[RichH2]

OK owl, when will LU release 14 sched?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There has always been a perception problem with PL scheduling which isn't entirely their fault. As the Ivies have purposely discriminated against 1) playoff participation and 2) scheduling out-of-region Top 25 FCS teams, they have marginalized themselves, which have made their relative strength difficult to gauge nationally. As a result, they've slipped in all the human Top 25 rankings. All the PL schools have at least one Ivy on the schedule, too, so any PL at-large candidate is going to have some person in a room asking a question like, "How good is Dartmouth?"

As the Ivy has been sliding into near-irrelevance at the FCS level, other FCS schools have been larding up on FBS games. These games serve multiple purposes - a paycheck for the athletic department, a challenge for the kids, a fun trip for the alumni - but most importantly they give schools "schedule strength" by their mere presence on the schedule. Crucially, they are no-lose situations for the schools: if they lose 66-3, they can turn around and say, "hey, nobody expected us to win that game - they're Auburn!" If they lose by less than 10 points, it becomes a moral victory, and a net playoff gain. If they win, they can write their playoff ticket. Playoff-wise, they are no-lose propositions, win or lose.

Wofford last season is my poster child for "schedule strength via FBS". They played Chuck South, one of the worst teams in all of FCS, Lincoln, a pathetic D-II, and South Carolina of the SEC. They did as expected against them - win, win, loss, which is what Lehigh would have done with those games, too - but their "schedule" is seen as "stronger" because of South Carolina on their schedule. If you look at schedules around FCS, almost all of the playoff teams have an FBS team on there.

If the PL wants to get at-large teams, they need to get into the same game as the rest of FCS, which means scheduling FBS teams. There was a time when scheduling "strong" FCS teams and winning those games, and a spirited pitch that games against the top echelon of the Ivy League were quality wins and enough to qualify as an at-large. Not anymore. It's schedule an FBS team - no matter how crappy they actually are, like Illinois State vs. Eastern Michigan, or McNeese State vs. Memphis - and see the perception of "schedule strength" magically happen with your team at tournament picking time.

[Lehigh'98]

There has always been a perception problem with PL scheduling which isn't entirely their fault. As the Ivies have purposely discriminated against 1) playoff participation and 2) scheduling out-of-region Top 25 FCS teams, they have marginalized themselves, which have made their relative strength difficult to gauge nationally. As a result, they've slipped in all the human Top 25 rankings. All the PL schools have at least one Ivy on the schedule, too, so any PL at-large candidate is going to have some person in a room asking a question like, "How good is Dartmouth?"

As the Ivy has been sliding into near-irrelevance at the FCS level, other FCS schools have been larding up on FBS games. These games serve multiple purposes - a paycheck for the athletic department, a challenge for the kids, a fun trip for the alumni - but most importantly they give schools "schedule strength" by their mere presence on the schedule. Crucially, they are no-lose situations for the schools: if they lose 66-3, they can turn around and say, "hey, nobody expected us to win that game - they're Auburn!" If they lose by less than 10 points, it becomes a moral victory, and a net playoff gain. If they win, they can write their playoff ticket. Playoff-wise, they are no-lose propositions, win or lose.

Wofford last season is my poster child for "schedule strength via FBS". They played Chuck South, one of the worst teams in all of FCS, Lincoln, a pathetic D-II, and South Carolina of the SEC. They did as expected against them - win, win, loss, which is what Lehigh would have done with those games, too - but their "schedule" is seen as "stronger" because of South Carolina on their schedule. If you look at schedules around FCS, almost all of the playoff teams have an FBS team on there.

If the PL wants to get at-large teams, they need to get into the same game as the rest of FCS, which means scheduling FBS teams. There was a time when scheduling "strong" FCS teams and winning those games, and a spirited pitch that games against the top echelon of the Ivy League were quality wins and enough to qualify as an at-large. Not anymore. It's schedule an FBS team - no matter how crappy they actually are, like Illinois State vs. Eastern Michigan, or McNeese State vs. Memphis - and see the perception of "schedule strength" magically happen with your team at tournament picking time.

This is a bit of a bad comparison. Wofford, by default, gets the SOS upperhand because they played in SoCon last year, which as much as it pains me, was better than the PL. Very hard for me to argue to keep Co-champs of that league out of the playoffs. Even if Lehigh played a FBS LY, they played no other great teams (don't feed me Liberty & Princeton). Its unfortunate, because i think Lehigh could have represented well in the playoffs, but the reality is they beat a bunch of losing teams LY and playing a FBS wouldn't have changed anything.

[Pard4Life]

The PL strength of schedule is a drawback. Outside the PL/Ivy universe, no one reads "Princeton" and "strength of schedule" in the same discussion when you've got Big Sky and Missouri Valley and SoCon teams scheduling much more aggressively.

This is a question that should be added to LFN's list for PL media day--what is your team's scheduling strategy going forward in this decade?

Colgate and Fordham seem to be in the lead on this and while they might take a few bumps in the road, they are establishing themselves as creditable opponents. Way, way in the back is Georgetown, whose funding precludes any meaningful out of region opponents. But the rest of the group --Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Bucknell -- have to figure out how much they will tread on foreign territory to build a schedule worthy of at-large consideration; otherwise, you will have more teams with 8+ wins sitting at home in late November.

Once again, you have ignored Lafayette's current (and past) reality. Lafayette has traditionally had the most challenging OOC schedule here... and even the Lehigh posters have noted their envy of our schedule. If we were 'equal,' would they dare envy us? (in any way). We had the #1 most difficult schedule in the nation in 2011 if I recall.

Not to mention the fact that Lafayette received an at-large in a much smaller playoff field, with 8 wins, by doing exactly what you said.

2013 - W&M, Sacred Heart, Penn, Harvard, Princeton
2014 - W&M, Wagner, RMU, Yale, Harvard
2015 - W&M, Delaware, Harvard, Wagner, Princeton (all five of these teams may be killer good by this point)
2016 - Delaware, an FBS

The only cupcakes may seem to be Sacred Heart and RMU, and 2015 may have no cupcakes at all. Wagner has established some legitimacy as program, but still a work in progress overall. If they have a repeat performance this year and next, they should be a solid program moving forward.

[RichH2]

'98
agree. Last yrs sched too weak to warrant playoffs. We needed to beat Gate and came up short giving up a solid lead to lose. Not much better this yr but UNH is always a plus. Until we as a group improve, which I think we will, we can never count on an at large. PL has had at larges occasionally , I expect we will get them more consistently as we field more schollie players.

[Pard4Life]

I think the media and the selection committee, by and large ( :D ), recognize that Harvard and Penn are top programs capable of playing with the top FCS teams. The yahoos on here may always say otherwise, but their opinions do not matter when it counts.

Harvard/Penn may not be able to play and beat a top 5 team with regularity, but they are comfortably within the 10-20 range when they have strong seasons. After all, we PL people are the best judges... Lafayette has crossed NDSU with Harvard, Richmond, Liberty with Penn etc in multiple seasons. I guess our football perceptions matter less or we are simply inept at judging football quality...

Every other Ivy though is usually a question most years. Princeton can likely enter that top tier.

[Bogus Megapardus]

An omen, maybe?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BO6PWA1CcAAaFTs.jpg

[Go...gate]

The PL strength of schedule is a drawback. Outside the PL/Ivy universe, no one reads "Princeton" and "strength of schedule" in the same discussion when you've got Big Sky and Missouri Valley and SoCon teams scheduling much more aggressively.

This is a question that should be added to LFN's list for PL media day--what is your team's scheduling strategy going forward in this decade?

Colgate and Fordham seem to be in the lead on this and while they might take a few bumps in the road, they are establishing themselves as creditable opponents. Way, way in the back is Georgetown, whose funding precludes any meaningful out of region opponents. But the rest of the group --Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Bucknell -- have to figure out how much they will tread on foreign territory to build a schedule worthy of at-large consideration; otherwise, you will have more teams with 8+ wins sitting at home in late November.

Colgate, except during Dave Roach's tenure as AD (and even then we had a few decent OOC games) has always scheduled stretch games as a matter of course.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the media and the selection committee, by and large ( :D ), recognize that Harvard and Penn are top programs capable of playing with the top FCS teams. The yahoos on here may always say otherwise, but their opinions do not matter when it counts.

Harvard/Penn may not be able to play and beat a top 5 team with regularity, but they are comfortably within the 10-20 range when they have strong seasons. After all, we PL people are the best judges... Lafayette has crossed NDSU with Harvard, Richmond, Liberty with Penn etc in multiple seasons. I guess our football perceptions matter less or we are simply inept at judging football quality...

Every other Ivy though is usually a question most years. Princeton can likely enter that top tier.

Typical committee member thought process:

"Harvard? I think they're pretty good. Or they used to be good. Are they in the Top 25? They're 24? So not as good as UT-Martin, then. I don't know: I didn't watch any of their games. Their endowment is great, though.

Penn is pretty good. At least, they used to be. Wait, they lost to Villanova. Maybe they're not that good.

Dartmouth? Cornell? Princeton? The rest of the bunch are I-AAA/non-scholarship, right? Wins against them shouldn't count. Amiright?"

I think you overestimate the veracity of some of the committee members.

[RichH2]

I may doubt their sagacity, dont know'em well enuf to call them liars.. Agree tho, IL wins dont count for much in FCS

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Once again, you have ignored Lafayette's current (and past) reality. Lafayette has traditionally had the most challenging OOC schedule here... and even the Lehigh posters have noted their envy of our schedule. If we were 'equal,' would they dare envy us? (in any way). We had the #1 most difficult schedule in the nation in 2011 if I recall.

Not to mention the fact that Lafayette received an at-large in a much smaller playoff field, with 8 wins, by doing exactly what you said.

2013 - W&M, Sacred Heart, Penn, Harvard, Princeton
2014 - W&M, Wagner, RMU, Yale, Harvard
2015 - W&M, Delaware, Harvard, Wagner, Princeton (all five of these teams may be killer good by this point)
2016 - Delaware, an FBS

The only cupcakes may seem to be Sacred Heart and RMU, and 2015 may have no cupcakes at all. Wagner has established some legitimacy as program, but still a work in progress overall. If they have a repeat performance this year and next, they should be a solid program moving forward.

How many CAA teams has Lafayette played the last five years? I'm not close to a computer or i'd do my own research.

Lehigh's OOC opponents the last five years. I don't see how Lehigh has "dodged" people...
2009 - CCSU, @ Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale
2010 - @ Drake, Villanova, Princeton, @UNH, @ Harvard
2011 - @ Monmouth, UNH, @ Princeton, Liberty, Yale
2012 - Monmouth, @ CCSU, Princeton, @ Liberty, Columbia
2013 - @ Monmouth, CCSU, @ Princeton UNH, @ Columbia

As for Lafayette's #1 schedule in 2011...That was probably aided by #1 NDSU and #5 LEHIGH...

[RichH2]

I'm on your side owl but I would only give us credit for Nova,Harvard,UNH, Liberty. Over a 5 yr span, not terrible but certainly not noteworhty either. Part of the problem is most PL victories dontcount for much either.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I'm on your side owl but I would only give us credit for Nova,Harvard,UNH, Liberty. Over a 5 yr span, not terrible but certainly not noteworhty either. Part of the problem is most PL victories dontcount for much either.

2010 was absolutely noteworthy. Villanova was the the defending national champs. They came to Goodman ranked #2 after suffering a close loss to Temple to open the year. I'm pretty sure UNH was in the Top 10 as well. Both teams made the playoffs. Nova lost in the semi's to eventual champ EWU. Harvard finished 7-3, Drake 7-4. Only Princeton stunk...

Only HC might be able to touch that...

[DFW HOYA]

Once again, you have ignored Lafayette's current (and past) reality. Lafayette has traditionally had the most challenging OOC schedule here... and even the Lehigh posters have noted their envy of our schedule. If we were 'equal,' would they dare envy us? (in any way).

Penn, Harvard and Princeton may be challenging to the staff of the Express-Times, but if you're a voter at Illinois State or McNeese or Cal Poly, it doesn't carry the kind of weight some in the Northeast might think.

Here are the 2013 out of conference schedules of Lafayette and these three teams. If each finished 8-3, which looks the best? (I-A opponents in bold)

Lafayette: W&M, Sacred Heart (non-sch.), Penn, (non-sch.), Harvard, (non-sch.), Princeton (non-sch.)
Illinois State: South Florida, Weber St., Northern Iowa, Ark-Pine Bluff, W. Alabama (D-II),
McNeese State: Ball State, E. Illinois, Abilene Christian
Cal Poly: Fresno State, Colorado State , San Diego (non-sch), Yale (non-sch.)

Future schedules may indeed prove more challenging as some PL teams go to a 1-2-2 strategy (one I-A, two I-AA with full scholarships, two I-AA non-scholarship). To do so, however, means losing some familiar foes and taking on some unfamiliar ones.

[Fordham]

Just got word of a pass rushing DE transfer from Arizona who is on campus at dear alma mater.

Any other transfers occurring now that schollies are fairly abundant in PL land?

[RichH2]

2010 was absolutely noteworthy. Villanova was the the defending national champs. They came to Goodman ranked #2 after suffering a close loss to Temple to open the year. I'm pretty sure UNH was in the Top 10 as well. Both teams made the playoffs. Nova lost in the semi's to eventual champ EWU. Harvard finished 7-3, Drake 7-4. Only Princeton stunk...

Only HC might be able to touch that...

2010 was fine, my point was looking at all 5 yrs, not great overall

[RichH2]

Just got word of a pass rushing DE transfer from Arizona who is on campus at dear alma mater.

Any other transfers occurring now that schollies are fairly abundant in PL land?

Many rumors and conversations but not much substance as of yet. I expect we will be getting more interest as more schollies become available

[PAllen]

Penn, Harvard and Princeton may be challenging to the staff of the Express-Times, but if you're a voter at Illinois State or McNeese or Cal Poly, it doesn't carry the kind of weight some in the Northeast might think.

Here are the 2013 out of conference schedules of Lafayette and these three teams. If each finished 8-3, which looks the best? (I-A opponents in bold)

Lafayette: W&M, Sacred Heart (non-sch.), Penn, (non-sch.), Harvard, (non-sch.), Princeton (non-sch.)
Illinois State: South Florida, Weber St., Northern Iowa, Ark-Pine Bluff, W. Alabama (D-II),
McNeese State: Ball State, E. Illinois, Abilene Christian
Cal Poly: Fresno State, Colorado State , San Diego (non-sch), Yale (non-sch.)

Future schedules may indeed prove more challenging as some PL teams go to a 1-2-2 strategy (one I-A, two I-AA with full scholarships, two I-AA non-scholarship). To do so, however, means losing some familiar foes and taking on some unfamiliar ones.

This is what pisses me off about the strength of schedule crowd. So I'm a pioneer league team who plays LSU, Alabama, Oklahoma, and USC. I get killed by Alabama, LSU lets me hang around for a while before beating us into the ground, Oklahoma beats us by two TDs, but we're "in it" right up until the end, then USC kicks the crap out of us. Then I go on to narrowly win all of my league games. Suddenly I'm so much better than most of FCS as I have by far the strongest SoS.

As a side note, this is the same thinking that got the VA HS playoff selection criteria changed that has resulted in at least two one win teams getting seeds in the tournament only to get drilled in the first round.

[CFBfan]

Just got word of a pass rushing DE transfer from Arizona who is on campus at dear alma mater.

Any other transfers occurring now that schollies are fairly abundant in PL land?

Now and for the next couple years schollies are abundant at FU not the rest of the PL.

[bonarae]

There has always been a perception problem with PL scheduling which isn't entirely their fault. As the Ivies have purposely discriminated against 1) playoff participation and 2) scheduling out-of-region Top 25 FCS teams, they have marginalized themselves, which have made their relative strength difficult to gauge nationally. As a result, they've slipped in all the human Top 25 rankings. All the PL schools have at least one Ivy on the schedule, too, so any PL at-large candidate is going to have some person in a room asking a question like, "How good is Dartmouth?"

As the Ivy has been sliding into near-irrelevance at the FCS level, other FCS schools have been larding up on FBS games. These games serve multiple purposes - a paycheck for the athletic department, a challenge for the kids, a fun trip for the alumni - but most importantly they give schools "schedule strength" by their mere presence on the schedule. Crucially, they are no-lose situations for the schools: if they lose 66-3, they can turn around and say, "hey, nobody expected us to win that game - they're Auburn!" If they lose by less than 10 points, it becomes a moral victory, and a net playoff gain. If they win, they can write their playoff ticket. Playoff-wise, they are no-lose propositions, win or lose.

Wofford last season is my poster child for "schedule strength via FBS". They played Chuck South, one of the worst teams in all of FCS, Lincoln, a pathetic D-II, and South Carolina of the SEC. They did as expected against them - win, win, loss, which is what Lehigh would have done with those games, too - but their "schedule" is seen as "stronger" because of South Carolina on their schedule. If you look at schedules around FCS, almost all of the playoff teams have an FBS team on there.

If the PL wants to get at-large teams, they need to get into the same game as the rest of FCS, which means scheduling FBS teams. There was a time when scheduling "strong" FCS teams and winning those games, and a spirited pitch that games against the top echelon of the Ivy League were quality wins and enough to qualify as an at-large. Not anymore. It's schedule an FBS team - no matter how crappy they actually are, like Illinois State vs. Eastern Michigan, or McNeese State vs. Memphis - and see the perception of "schedule strength" magically happen with your team at tournament picking time.

The sad reality kicks in ... the PL needs to schedule more FBS teams, especially former FCS brethren like UConn and UMass... (I selected these two teams as a basis for PL vs. FBS scheduling because the PL tends to schedule Northeast region teams) On the other hand, the Ivies need a lot of more football-forward-thinking persons to make football in the Ancient Eight relevant again. xsmhx

Why do you think the Ivies are reluctant to schedule NDSU, Montana, etc.? Maybe because of fear of humiliation? xchinscratchx

As for FBS vs. FCS, I don't think it's a no-lose situation. Remember there are fair-weather fans in every school or rather bandwagon fans who tend not to cheer for a particular FCS school after they lose to an FBS, especially by a wide margin (App over Michigan is like once in a blue moon now...)


Future schedules may indeed prove more challenging as some PL teams go to a 1-2-2 strategy (one I-A, two I-AA with full scholarships, two I-AA non-scholarship). To do so, however, means losing some familiar foes and taking on some unfamiliar ones.

Yeah, because of that above, Stony Brook or Albany (or even Fordham or Wagner) may become more appealing to me than Harvard once I get my FCS road trip dates in order... xsmhx

[Go Green]

Why do you think the Ivies are reluctant to schedule NDSU, Montana, etc.? Maybe because of fear of humiliation? xchinscratchx



Why are you looking at the rest of us? You're the league power. You upgrade your schedule.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The sad reality kicks in ... the PL needs to schedule more FBS teams, especially former FCS brethren like UConn and UMass... (I selected these two teams as a basis for PL vs. FBS scheduling because the PL tends to schedule Northeast region teams) On the other hand, the Ivies need a lot of more football-forward-thinking persons to make football in the Ancient Eight relevant again. xsmhx

Why do you think the Ivies are reluctant to schedule NDSU, Montana, etc.? Maybe because of fear of humiliation? xchinscratchx

As for FBS vs. FCS, I don't think it's a no-lose situation. Remember there are fair-weather fans in every school or rather bandwagon fans who tend not to cheer for a particular FCS school after they lose to an FBS, especially by a wide margin (App over Michigan is like once in a blue moon now...)



Yeah, because of that above, Stony Brook or Albany (or even Fordham or Wagner) may become more appealing to me than Harvard once I get my FCS road trip dates in order... xsmhx

More than they are now? Yes. However, there's no reason to start playing "money" games to get slaughtered. If Lehigh wants to play Uconn, UMass, Army, Navy, Temple, Buffalo etc that's fine. The Hawks played FBS teams (Buffalo/UConn) in back-2-back years, 2002/03, so the idea is hardly foreign.

I have a feeling that Temple will be a regular on a lot of PL teams schedules. I'm not sure that's a good thing...

[Lehigh'98]

In my mind FBS games should be treated as a risk. If you win, great. Any other result helps you in no other way besides financially.

[RichH2]

Seems N FBs game has become a prerequisite for FCS teams seeking an at large bid. While I would enjoy an occasional FBS match,IMO more games vs FCS Bigboys ( W&M,UR,Wofford,CAA,BigSky) are more relevant and interesting for me as it gauges our squad vs our own division. Big paydays nice once in a while. Prefer Army,Navy, even Rutgers( meaningful to us oldfarts).

Ivies creatwd their own little box. They have become relevant only to themselves. Up to each school to scedule themselves out of their cul-de sac. No incentive to do so now w/o access to playoffs or at least an additional game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Adding last year's Massey ratings to prove a point.


Here are the 2013 out of conference schedules of Lafayette and these three teams. If each finished 8-3, which looks the best? (I-A opponents in bold)

Lafayette: W&M (67), Sacred Heart (112) (non-sch.), Penn (54), (non-sch.), Harvard (30) , (non-sch.), Princeton (59) (non-sch.)

Illinois State: South Florida, Weber St. (66), Ark-Pine Bluff (53), W. Alabama (D-II)

McNeese State: Ball State, E. Illinois (22), Abilene Christian (D-I transitional)

Cal Poly: Fresno State, Colorado State , San Diego (64)(non-sch), Yale (103) (non-sch.)

Cal Poly goes 2-2 against these schools, just like Holy Cross likely could, but Cal Poly gets "schedule strength" because they have 2 FBS teams.

For Illinois State, they get more consideration from playing UAPB (53) than Lafayette does when they play Penn (54), and when Illinois State loses to Eastern Illinois (22), a "close loss" there gives them more than any win over Sacred Heart.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

In my mind FBS games should be treated as a risk. If you win, great. Any other result helps you in no other way besides financially.

I'd like to see a ban on all cross-division games. Hopefully more conferences follow the Big 10's lead...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In my mind FBS games should be treated as a risk. If you win, great. Any other result helps you in no other way besides financially.

Untrue.

[Lehigh'98]

Untrue.


It may be untrue today, just how I'd treat them given the choice. Wouldn't ban them because some schools need the $.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's another way of looking at the issue.

Schools like Cal Poly and a school like Lehigh are trying to do something similar but going about it in different ways. They want some home games against winnable opponents and they want 1-2 "stretch games" that will test their teams.

When Lehigh stretches with Liberty, New Hampshire, or William & Mary, they are making a gamble that these teams will remain relevant throughout the season. When Lafayette put W&M and Lehigh put Liberty on the schedule, they both were Top 25 teams. They didn't expect W&M to end up with a Massey rating below Harvard and Penn last season, or that Liberty would start the season 0-4. In this method of scheduling, you make the schedule years out, and you roll the dice hope it works out for you.

When Cal Poly stretches with Fresno State and Colorado State, they know they are testing their team and getting themselves $$$, but they also know that the games will have no effect on their "schedule strength" come playoff time. Colorado State could end up 1-11 and worse than more than half the FCS Top 25, but a win or even a "moral victory" gives CPU stature in the Top 25. Add to that two home cupcakes and you have a OOC schedule that escapes any scrutiny.

You also have to realize that this is additive. When your whole conference schedules FBS teams, suddenly all your teams are "strong" even though they lose those games. So, suddenly, Cal Poly beating Weber State is worth more than Lehigh beating Georgetown, even though the Hoyas were 5-6 and Wildcats were 2-9 last season.

[DFW HOYA]

You also have to realize that this is additive. When your whole conference schedules FBS teams, suddenly all your teams are "strong" even though they lose those games. So, suddenly, Montana beating Weber State is worth more than Lehigh beating Georgetown, even though the Hoyas and Wildcats had identical 2-9 records last season.

Weber was 2-9. Georgetown was 5-6.

[Lehigh'98]

Here's another way of looking at the issue.

Schools like Cal Poly and a school like Lehigh are trying to do something similar but going about it in different ways. They want some home games against winnable opponents and they want 1-2 "stretch games" that will test their teams.

When Lehigh schedules Liberty, New Hampshire, or William & Mary, they are making a gamble that these teams will remain relevant throughout the season. When Lafayette put W&M on the schedule, they were a Top 25 team. They didn't expect them to end up with a Massey rating below Harvard and Penn last season. In this method of scheduling, you make the schedule years out, and you roll the dice hope it works out for you.

When Cal Poly schedules Fresno State and Colorado State, they know they are testing their team and getting themselves $$$, but they also know that the games will have no effect on their "schedule strength" come playoff time. Colorado State could end up 1-11 and worse than more than half the FCS Top 25, but a win or even a "moral victory" gives CPU stature in the Top 25. Add to that two home cupcakes and you have a OOC schedule that escapes any scrutiny.

You also have to realize that this is additive. When your whole conference schedules FBS teams, suddenly all your teams are "strong" even though they lose those games. So, suddenly, Montana beating Weber State is worth more than Lehigh beating Georgetown, even though the Hoyas and Wildcats had identical 2-9 records last season.


You just laid out the case of why they should be ignored unless its a win. A W against weak FBS counts less.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Weber was 2-9. Georgetown was 5-6.

Thanks - stupid lack of caffeine. Massey ratings: 2-9 Weber State: 66. 5-6 Georgetown: 88. This is what the PL is up against.

[RichH2]

Boils down to willingness of our group to schedule up ,whether it be FBS or FCS. Loading up on NEC and IL games will not do it. Likewise if only a few of us schedule up, the conference schedule will remain a negative for any seeking an at large

[Franks Tanks]

It may be untrue today, just how I'd treat them given the choice. Wouldn't ban them because some schools need the $.

FBS schools also want the games. Most SEC schools play FCS games mid-season as a break from a tough stretch of games. Some even play 2 some years. I understand lower level FBS schools may fill in, but scheduling becomes harder. Florida wants to play Western Carolina at home the week before they play Georgia to get a break and the revenue. They may still win 9 out of 10 against a UAB or Akron, but sometimes those schools get good withoit warning and Florida is in a dog fight. Lower level FBS schools also need the wins. They games will not go away since both sides benefit to a degree, but I think they will be reduced as some teams will need to upgrade schedules to make it to the 4 team playoff.

[Go...gate]

I'd like to see a ban on all cross-division games. Hopefully more conferences follow the Big 10's lead...

Geez, no more stretch games? I like it when Colgate steps up and takes their chance. The players look forward to the challenge, the alumni like it, and it probably improves the squad to play such games occasionally. You mean to tell me that if Rutgers or Vanderbilt called Lehigh they would rather not play such opponents?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Geez, no more stretch games? I like it when Colgate steps up and takes their chance. The players look forward to the challenge, the alumni like it, and it probably improves the squad to play such games occasionally. You mean to tell me that it Rutgers or Vanderbilt called Lehigh they would rather not play such opponents?

I have no desire to watch Temple play these teams, sorry, nor does anyone at Temple. We have zero business playing Fordham this year which is why we'll be lucky if 15k people show up. I hope we're paying them pennies for the game.

Penn State fans have been throwing fits since they started scheduling the likes of Coastal Carolina and YSU. Simply put, fans of larger FBS schools detest these games even more than the "middling" ones. Hopefully more and more season ticket holders at the bigger schools start voicing their displeasure.

I have much more interest in Lehigh playing Delaware and Villanova than Army and Navy.

[RichH2]

UD unlikely given their stance of only offering us 2 at their place. Agree, altho always enjoyed Michie. McQuiken game there was outstanding.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Thanks - stupid lack of caffeine. Massey ratings: 2-9 Weber State: 66. 5-6 Georgetown: 88. This is what the PL is up against.

But we've known this all along, LFN. The PL scholarships are going to take 4-5 years to invest and show results. Once they do the "ratings" necessarily will change. Must . . . have . . . patience . . .

[RichH2]

Agree Bogie, 1st class of schollies. We have to improve SOS,particularly LU, but we'll need 2-3 classes for impact to be really evident. For now, we will continue to have the same SOS issues, cept Gate. Biggest drag really is that PL wins mean very little unless you win PL. Time will tell.

[The Maestro]

I have no desire to watch Temple play these teams, sorry, nor does anyone at Temple. We have zero business playing Fordham this year which is why we'll be lucky if 15k people show up. I hope we're paying them pennies for the game.

Penn State fans have been throwing fits since they started scheduling the likes of Coastal Carolina and YSU. Simply put, fans of larger FBS schools detest these games even more than the "middling" ones. Hopefully more and more season ticket holders at the bigger schools start voicing their displeasure.

I have much more interest in Lehigh playing Delaware and Villanova than Army and Navy.

i think the academies can be viewed as a different breed of cat from your run of the mill non-major major & top tier fcs....i'd love to see lu play any of the 3 academies and think they bring the excitement level up a notch from the usual suspects; they are a marquee game while the others are just interesting. one of the highlights of my days was playing at michie....watched lu play nova on a beautiful day at goodman a few years ago and i doubt the crowd was 5 figures.

[RichH2]

Yup, one of my favorite games ever was at Michie in the rain. We came so close. May not make as much $$ but those games would bring more fan interest than playing any other FBS, well maybe PSU lol

[Pard4Life]

Lehigh's OOC opponents the last five years. I don't see how Lehigh has "dodged" people...
2009 - CCSU, @ Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale 3 cupcakes, 2 serious games
2010 - @ Drake, Villanova, Princeton, @UNH, @ Harvard 2 cupcakes, 3 serious games
2011 - @ Monmouth, UNH, @ Princeton, Liberty, Yale 3 cupcakes, 1 serious game, 1 eh
2012 - Monmouth, @ CCSU, Princeton, @ Liberty, Columbia 3 cupcakes, 2 eh
2013 - @ Monmouth, CCSU, @ Princeton UNH, @ Columbia 3 cupcakes, 1 eh, 1 serious

As for Lafayette's #1 schedule in 2011...That was probably aided by #1 NDSU and #5 LEHIGH...

2009 - CCSU, @ Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale 3 cupcakes, 2 serious games
2010 - @ Drake, Villanova, Princeton, @UNH, @ Harvard 2 cupcakes, 3 serious games
2011 - @ Monmouth, UNH, @ Princeton, Liberty, Yale 3 cupcakes, 1 serious game, 1 eh
2012 - Monmouth, @ CCSU, Princeton, @ Liberty, Columbia 3 cupcakes, 2 eh
2013 - @ Monmouth, CCSU, @ Princeton UNH, @ Columbia 3 cupcakes, 1 eh, 1 serious

So that's 14 cupcakes, 7 serious, 3 eh... so 58% of your OOC is cupcakes, and 30% are real games, and 12% are comparable competition.

And yeah, NDSU aided the schedule... that's the point. You ran it up on cupcakes.
LC 2011: @NDSU, @Penn, @Stony Brook, Harvard, Yale... that's three real games (one super serious), 1 cupcake, 1 eh

[heath]

Thanks - stupid lack of caffeine. Massey ratings: 2-9 Weber State: 66. 5-6 Georgetown: 88. This is what the PL is up against.

You must lack caffeine when posting or writing daily:) I think a better excuse would be much better, like " I'm full of crap", but read my stuff anyway.xlolx

[Pard4Life]

Penn, Harvard and Princeton may be challenging to the staff of the Express-Times, but if you're a voter at Illinois State or McNeese or Cal Poly, it doesn't carry the kind of weight some in the Northeast might think.

Here are the 2013 out of conference schedules of Lafayette and these three teams. If each finished 8-3, which looks the best? (I-A opponents in bold)

Lafayette: W&M, Sacred Heart (non-sch.), Penn, (non-sch.), Harvard, (non-sch.), Princeton (non-sch.)
Illinois State: South Florida, Weber St., Northern Iowa, Ark-Pine Bluff, W. Alabama (D-II),
McNeese State: Ball State, E. Illinois, Abilene Christian
Cal Poly: Fresno State, Colorado State , San Diego (non-sch), Yale (non-sch.)

Future schedules may indeed prove more challenging as some PL teams go to a 1-2-2 strategy (one I-A, two I-AA with full scholarships, two I-AA non-scholarship). To do so, however, means losing some familiar foes and taking on some unfamiliar ones.

Our performance depends upon how W&M and Harvard perform, assuming we lose to only the second place PL team. If the Tribe loses two-three games, one to us, and Harvard goes 9-1, losing to us, then we'd probably lead the pack depending upon how strong Weber/UNI are for the Red Birds.

The FBS games are weird... unless you win... a loss is a loss... you don't exactly help your case if could have scheduled another FCS.

CP's performance will likely solely depend upon how they perform in the Big Sky.
McNeese... again, the league.. E. Illinois is occassionally a top25 team... the D2 game is a waste, does nothing.
Ill. State... Weber and UNI... they will likely both be good, and wins here, with five wins in MVFC, puts them in.

The PL just needs to have a strong OOC overall... regardless of which teams.. to make the league seem worthy of multi-bids.

[RichH2]

P4L, no serious argument that LU has to upgrade its schedule or that other PL schools have had tougher scheds some yrs. This season not much better but UNH helps .NEC teams , altho schollies, are not plus games.

[Pard4Life]

Geez, no more stretch games? I like it when Colgate steps up and takes their chance. The players look forward to the challenge, the alumni like it, and it probably improves the squad to play such games occasionally. You mean to tell me that it Rutgers or Vanderbilt called Lehigh they would rather not play such opponents?

Yeah... I agree... I don't want to be playing Texas AM or Florida... but if someone like Duke, Vandy, Rutgers, Army, Navy... even Pitt, a historical opponent, sure why not. I'd want to see Lehigh play Rutgers. Geez I don't even know who to cheer for... both hated rivals for LC.

[Pard4Life]

P4L, no serious argument that LU has to upgrade its schedule or that other PL schools have had tougher scheds some yrs. This season not much better but UNH helps .NEC teams , altho schollies, are not plus games.

If UNH goes undefeated through the CAA and you beat them or lose by a few, and only lose that one game or just one overall (to us), then it probably makes up for the other cupcakes this year. Princeton is a toss-up... could be cupcake, but likely a .500 team.

[The Maestro]

no way to defend it. i said before and still say now, imo, the problem isn't with monmouth and the problem isn't with ccsu, the problem is with both in the same year. i like what gates doing and hold my nose while tipping cap to pusskatz

[RichH2]

1 NEC Ok I guess, 2 Ivies,FCS, alternte another Ivy and FCs and then at least 1 FBs game for each class. That and improved SOS for rest of PL should make an at large bid more likely and dare I say it 2 once in a while.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But we've known this all along, LFN. The PL scholarships are going to take 4-5 years to invest and show results. Once they do the "ratings" necessarily will change. Must . . . have . . . patience . . .


Our performance depends upon how W&M and Harvard perform, assuming we lose to only the second place PL team....

The PL just needs to have a strong OOC overall... regardless of which teams.. to make the league seem worthy of multi-bids.


If UNH goes undefeated through the CAA and you beat them or lose by a few, and only lose that one game or just one overall (to us), then it probably makes up for the other cupcakes this year. Princeton is a toss-up... could be cupcake, but likely a .500 team.


no way to defend it. i said before and still say now, imo, the problem isn't with monmouth and the problem isn't with ccsu, the problem is with both in the same year. i like what gates doing and hold my nose while tipping cap to pusskatz

See post 105. You don't get it. Big Sky/MVFC/etc. schools and Colgate get it, put an FBS on the schedule and magically get "schedule strength". You do realize nobody is assailing Colgate's SoS because they have Air Force on the schedule? Colgate is not rolling the dice with their schedule and hoping W&M and UNH have good years, like Lafayette and Lehigh are doing. They are playing a boatload of strong teams.

Any PL post that starts "If UNH goes undefeated" or "As long as W&M makes the playoffs" proves this point. You don't hear UNI fans posting about "As long as Eastern Illinois wins the OVC, we'll have a strong schedule".

[PAllen]

See post 105. You don't get it. Big Sky/MVFC/etc. schools and Colgate get it, put an FBS on the schedule and magically get "schedule strength". You do realize nobody is assailing Colgate's SoS because they have Air Force on the schedule? Colgate is not rolling the dice with their schedule and hoping W&M and UNH have good years, like Lafayette and Lehigh are doing. They are playing a boatload of strong teams.

Any PL post that starts "If UNH goes undefeated" or "As long as W&M makes the playoffs" proves this point. You don't hear UNI fans posting about "As long as Eastern Illinois wins the OVC, we'll have a strong schedule".

Ah yes, UNI. "We're 2-9 but we deserve to be seeded!"

[RichH2]

lol, true enuf PAllen, conversation much different among BigSky MV guys. They are sure that their SOS warrants at least a bid for all 7 win teams. Rather the other side of the coin than our viewpoint. It does I think support LFN, altho dynamic out west vastly different than here. West fewer FSC options outside of conference and most ,if not all of them are state schools. That said the basic premise of this thread remains the same. PL must improve SOS for OOC ,whether with FBS or more FCS full schollie teams to me makes little difference overall. Would rather beat an 8-3 Liberty than a 3-8 Temple ( sorry owl).

[Fordham]

URI
Villanova
Temple
Columbia
Yale

I could not be more pleased with our OOC, personally, and see no reason why most other PL schools won't have a comparable one soon (Colgate already does). It will just take some time and some competitive showings in these games to change perceptions.

I remember being one of the first to praise Albany back in '04-'05 while most PL fans were ripping them. (Getting crushed will immediately help someone see the light). Now look at them. They upgraded their program, upgraded their scheduling and, most important, competed well in those OOC games. 'Poof', perception changed. Just takes a while.

Forgive me if I'm beating someone else's sick or dead horse here. Jumping in more so after this last page v going back and reviewing all.

[RichH2]

hahahaha,, you didn't miss abeat . Good point on Albany. Given our history unlikely any can or would load up as much. Expect 2 stretch games at most for most. LU, at present has none. UNH may be a plus game depending on how they do in CAA. I would like to see 2 every yr from CAA,SoCon or the like.

[Pard4Life]

See post 105. You don't get it. Big Sky/MVFC/etc. schools and Colgate get it, put an FBS on the schedule and magically get "schedule strength". You do realize nobody is assailing Colgate's SoS because they have Air Force on the schedule? Colgate is not rolling the dice with their schedule and hoping W&M and UNH have good years, like Lafayette and Lehigh are doing. They are playing a boatload of strong teams.

Any PL post that starts "If UNH goes undefeated" or "As long as W&M makes the playoffs" proves this point. You don't hear UNI fans posting about "As long as Eastern Illinois wins the OVC, we'll have a strong schedule".

No LFN, I do get it. You don't get exactly what I'm saying between the lines.

Scheduling FBS teams and having it play into perception that your SoS is strong and thereby your team and league is irrational. These games are mostly pointless (with regard to your playoff chances) and counterproductive. You are likely going to lose the game badly therefore giving yourself an automatic loss. Is this a true measure on how good your team truly is? It is even more difficult to discern if CP's win means anything if Colorado State is truly terrible and only beats like Wyoming and Tulsa while being handled by everyone else. What does a three point win say? Take Sacremento State's win over Oregon State. The Beavers were terrible and Sac State did poorly the rest of the year. I guess that means Sac State was a good team that year (not really). It's a perception issue.

Every team rolls the dice with their schedule! The thing is, you have to roll the dice against teams that have a high probability of being good... and that you have a chance to beat if you are good, and thereby increase your chances of a playoff bid. Lafayette does this by scheduling Stony Brook, NDSU, Harvard... WM and Delaware in the same season. Lehigh can't do this by scheduling 2 NECs and two bad Ivy's. As for Colgate, they are and have been scheduling tough teams (Furman, UD)... regardless of Air Force, it's a good schedule.

Nobody cares about UNIs SoS because their conference is loaded. It becomes a question if they are on the bubble. They would be better served by beating a good team from FCS than inflating their SoS in a game where they will be slaughtered. It is wrong that this artificial inflation is taken into account. It is irrational. Norfolk State had the strongest SoS by playing FSU and Oklahoma and they play in one of the worst leagues. Their SoS does nothing for them and still would not if they beat everyone in the MEAC.

So CP losses both FCS games and then loses two conference games. 7-4. And now we are left with Yale San Deigo and the quality of the rest of the Big Sky, though usually strong, is theoretically a toss-up. So we should give them the nod just because they played an FCS?

On the other hand it's low risk huge reward to play FBS, but you are probably better served sticking with CAA and SoCon... and you are gambling on their quality. The thing is Lehigh does not gamble on enough of good teams... their only shot is UNH. If you replaced CCSU with Purdue, it still does nothing for you.

As for the PL getting respect is scheduling and beating other top FCS teams and conferences on a regular basis and going far in the playoffs, and doing it regularly. You don't have to play FBS and get into arguements about SoS based on the presence of an FBS team.

Like Wagner... I have some respect for them because they beat Colgate and nearly pulled off a huge playoff upset, not because they willingly scheduled and nearly beat an awful FBS team.

[RichH2]

Well said P4L.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No LFN, I do get it. You don't get exactly what I'm saying between the lines.

Scheduling FBS teams and having it play into perception that your SoS is strong and thereby your team and league is irrational. These games are mostly pointless (with regard to your playoff chances) and counterproductive. You are likely going to lose the game badly therefore giving yourself an automatic loss. Is this a true measure on how good your team truly is? It is even more difficult to discern if CP's win means anything if Colorado State is truly terrible and only beats like Wyoming and Tulsa while being handled by everyone else. What does a three point win say? Take Sacremento State's win over Oregon State. The Beavers were terrible and Sac State did poorly the rest of the year. I guess that means Sac State was a good team that year (not really). It's a perception issue.

Every team rolls the dice with their schedule! The thing is, you have to roll the dice against teams that have a high probability of being good... and that you have a chance to beat if you are good, and thereby increase your chances of a playoff bid. Lafayette does this by scheduling Stony Brook, NDSU, Harvard... WM and Delaware in the same season. Lehigh can't do this by scheduling 2 NECs and two bad Ivy's. As for Colgate, they are and have been scheduling tough teams (Furman, UD)... regardless of Air Force, it's a good schedule.

It is irrational. But that's how the decisions are made for the playoffs, unfortunately.

And you still don't see something: an FBS game isn't a roll of the dice at all for the team scheduling it. Whether they win or lose they still get the "schedule strength". Not to pick on Cal Poly but their OOC schedule of San Diego, Yale, Fresno State and Colorado State is almost risk-free. If they go 7-4 with that OOC, even with a "close loss", they're in over a 9-2 Lehigh or a 9-2 Lafayette looking for an at-large who need to keep their fingers crossed that wins over UNH and W&M, or God forbid "moral wins but actual losses", are enough to qualify.

[RichH2]

Why are we still arguing hypothetical maybes. LFN is correct as to Committee perception perhaps and current formula does indeed give more wgt to an FBS game. So what. Is anyone going to be able to schedule 1,2 every yr. Unlikely. It will be a revolving door of OOC for a while.Scheduling OOC FBS much easier out West. Lots of them around. Northeast not so much.A few trips out West or south sure but not that often IMO. MAC games might be an option. Are they a much better choice than a good CAA squad. Nice perhaps to dream of anFBS $ game every yr, just seems highly unlikely.

[DFW HOYA]

There are four ways to schedule in college football, where the PL has examples of three of them:

1. Schedule Up: This is the team that schedules a stronger non-conference schedule to get their team into post-season discussions and otherwise increase the perception of the program. They understand that while the results may not always be favorable, if they can hit the jackpot with one or two of these games, the publciity and impact on recruiting would justify the risk. In I-A, take a look at Fresno State's 2014 non-conference schedule: USC, Utah, Nebraska, Idaho. They could easily go 1-3, but what's the talk in colelge football the day after Fresno beat Nebraska?

>>In the PL, this is the move Fordham and Colgate are taking--not to Fresno's degree, but to extend its reach for at-large consideration with the possibly irrational (but nonetheless real) perception that playing I-A opponents connote a stronger I-AA competitor for at-large bids.

2. Schedule Down: This is the team that is so secure in its conference standing (i.e., near the top) and does not invest in out of conference games that introduce unnecessary risk. Texas scheduled this way for a number of years, because they were confident where they would finish in the Big 12. This year's example is Louisville, widely figured to compete for the AAC title in their only season there. The non-conference schedule (Ohio, Kentucky, Eastern Kentucky, FIU) does not connote much worry about the rest of the schedule.

>>No one in the PL currently schedules down like this.

3. Schedule by Legacy: In I-A, this is best illustrated by Notre Dame, who would play many of the same opponents annually without regard to wins and losses, but for the legacy of playing Michigan, Purdue, Navy, USC, Stanford, etc. They could certainly play better schools, out of its comfort zone, but it was more important to maintain traditions than chase after a game with unfamiliar opponents. This could change when the ACC scheduling arrangement comes into play.

>>This is the traditional approach by PL schools, particularly Lehigh, Lafayette, and Holy Cross. It is more important for these schools to play Harvard, Princeton, etc. whether these schools are 9-1 or 1-9 because that's rivals are for. This will be complicated if the Ivies loosen ties with these schools, but Holy Cross won't easily give up regional rivalries to chase after a guarantee game at Western Michigan or North Texas. Would Lehigh have been in the playoffs if it had beaten Illinois State instead of Princeton? Probably, but that woudn't have been a popular decision to ditch Princeton for an unfamiliar opponent.

4. Schedule By Need: There are those schools in I-A that frankly aren't getting the big games, and need wins more than they need publicity. Duke is often the example of this; its 2013 schedule features NC Central, Memphis, Troy, and Navy, with future opponents ahead like Army, Elon, and Tulane. These are opponents where wins can cushion the ride heading into conference play.

>>This is the approach of Georgetown, and to some extent, Bucknell. Playing Davidson or Sacred Heart doesn't sell extra tickets or drive recruiting, they are there because these schools need wins. Sometimes I can be critical of Georgetown's schedules, and while some can argue Georgetown does not show much confidence by limiting opponents to non-scholarship teams, it's not like they are turning down calls from Delaware and Villanova, either. Similarly, Bucknell is increasingly scheduling a more cautious non-conference schedule because strength of schedule doesn't mean a lot if you finish 2-9.

Which PL schools are likely to change their scheduling patterns going forward?

[Pard4Life]

It is irrational. But that's how the decisions are made for the playoffs, unfortunately.

And you still don't see something: an FBS game isn't a roll of the dice at all for the team scheduling it. Whether they win or lose they still get the "schedule strength". Not to pick on Cal Poly but their OOC schedule of San Diego, Yale, Fresno State and Colorado State is almost risk-free. If they go 7-4 with that OOC, even with a "close loss", they're in over a 9-2 Lehigh or a 9-2 Lafayette looking for an at-large who need to keep their fingers crossed that wins over UNH and W&M, or God forbid "moral wins but actual losses", are enough to qualify.

I know that's how it's done for the playoffs and it's wrong.. the system's wrong man! Tear it down man!

I know an FBS isn't a dice roll... I said that... buried in the monologue. It's low risk high reward. The risk pretty much being getting the crapped beat out of you and being impacted the next week.

It's funny the FBS SoS didn't help Lehigh in 2003 when the PL was much stronger.

But, they made it in 2004 without an FBS game but a quality OOC showing vs Nova.

I'd really question if 7-4 CP would get in over 9-2 LC or LU... if Lehigh beats UNH. It's the marquee win aspect, which CP would have none if they don't beat Montana or the top two Big Sky teams.

[Pard4Life]

DFW.. good way of classifying it. I'd say Lafayette is a bit of a legacy and schedule up hybrid... we stick with the usual Ivy suspects, but we are not afraid to schedule up when we have a shot... NDSU, Stony Brook, WM, UD, Richmond, Liberty. Tavani has stated it as his intention going forward.

Lehigh dare I say schedules down. No guarantee they will clean up in conference, but they could play better teams. But they are mostly legacy like you said.

Ivy may force us all to change with supposed reluctance to play schollie PL teams.

I actually like our schedule a lot... just replace an Ivy with another top conference team or a relevant FBS in the future and I'm gravy.

[RichH2]

Lots of legacy games, agree there is a probability that some Ivies will schedule away from us to an extent.Expect LU will wind up with 2 IL games,Princeton and someone else. 1 NEC or the like Dump this one for FBS on occasion and 2 FCS. Out of 5 s/b able to upgrade. Hope Joe does.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

DFW.. good way of classifying it. I'd say Lafayette is a bit of a legacy and schedule up hybrid... we stick with the usual Ivy suspects, but we are not afraid to schedule up when we have a shot... NDSU, Stony Brook, WM, UD, Richmond, Liberty. Tavani has stated it as his intention going forward.

Lehigh dare I say schedules down. No guarantee they will clean up in conference, but they could play better teams. But they are mostly legacy like you said.

Ivy may force us all to change with supposed reluctance to play schollie PL teams.

I actually like our schedule a lot... just replace an Ivy with another top conference team or a relevant FBS in the future and I'm gravy.

You are taking credit for a team, UD, that Lafayette has yet to play. Do you realize that W&M has 3 winning seasons since 2005? UNH has been MUCH better, as was Villanova. Lafayette last played Richmond in 2005. Lehigh happened to play Delaware that year. Lehigh has also played Liberty more recently.

Lehigh's 2014 schedule could be stacked for all we know.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Last 5 OOC Schedules by team

Bucknell
2009 - @ Duquesne, Robert Morris, @ Cornell, Marist Penn
210 - @ Duquesne, @ Marist, Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn
2011 - Duquesne, Marist, @ Cornell, Princeton, @ Harvard
2012 - @ Marist, @ Delaware, Cornell, @ Harvard, Bryant
2013 - Marist, @ Cornell, Sacred Heart, @ Dartmouth, @ VMI

Colgate
2009 - Monmouth, Stony Brook, @ Darmouth, Cornell, @ Princeton
2010 - Monmouth, @ Furman, @ Syracuse, @ Princeton, @ Cornell
2011 - Albany, @ Darmouth, @ Towson, @ Monmouth, Cornell
2012 - @ Albany, @ South Dakota, Sacred Heart, @ Stony Brook, @ Yale
2013 - @ Air Force, Albany, @ UNH, Yale, @ Cornell, @ Stony Brook

Fordham
2009 - @ URI, Columbia, ODU, Bryant, @ Cornell
2010 - @ Bryant, URI, @ Columbia, Assumption, @ Yale
2011 - @ UConn, Columbia, @ URI, @ Penn, @ Army
2012 - Lock Haven, @ Villanova, Cornell, @ Columbia, @ Cincinnati
2013 - URI, Villanova, @ Temple, Columbia, @ St. Francis

Georgetown
2009 - Yale, Howard, @ ODU, @ Marist, Richmond
2010 - @ Davidson, @ Yale, Wagner, @ Sacred Heart, Marist
2011 - Davidson, @ Yale, @ Marist, @ Wagner, @ Howard
2012 - @ Davidson, Wagner, Yale, @ Princeton, Brown
2013 - @ Wagner, Davidson, Marist, @ Brown, Princeton

Holy Cross
2009 - Sacred Heart, Harvard, @ Northeastern, @ Brown, Dartmouth,
2010 - Howard, @ Umass, @ Harvard, Brown, @ Dartmouth
2011 - Umass, Harvard, @ UNH, @ Brown, Dartmouth
2012 - UNH, Brown, Dartmouth, @ Harvard, @ Wagner
2013 - @ Bryant, Towson, @ CCSU, Monmouth, @ Darmouth, Harvard

Lafayette
2009 - Liberty, Penn, @ Yale, Columbia, @ Harvard
2010 - @ Penn, @ Princeton, Harvard, @ Columbia, Stony Brook
2011 - @ NDSU, @ Penn, @ Stony Brook, Harvard, Yale
2012 - @ W&M, Penn, @ Robert Morris, Princeton, @ Yale
2013 - Sacred Heart, W&M, @ Penn, @ Princeton, @ Harvard

Lehigh
2009 - CCSU, @ Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale
2010 - @ Drake, Villanova, Princeton, @ UNH, @ Harvard
2011 - @ Monmouth, UNH, @ Princeton, Liberty, Yale
2012 - Monmouth, @ CCSU, Princeton, @ Liberty, Columbia
2013 - CCSU, @ Monmouth, @ Princeton, UNH, @ Columbia

[CFBfan]

Talk about soft:

Bucknell
2009 - @ Duquesne, Robert Morris, @ Cornell, Marist Penn
210 - @ Duquesne, @ Marist, Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn
2011 - Duquesne, Marist, @ Cornell, Princeton, @ Harvard
2012 - @ Marist, @ Delaware, Cornell, @ Harvard, Bryant
2013 - Marist, @ Cornell, Sacred Heart, @ Dartmouth, @ VMI

[The Maestro]

Talk about soft:

Bucknell
2009 - @ Duquesne, Robert Morris, @ Cornell, Marist Penn
210 - @ Duquesne, @ Marist, Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn
2011 - Duquesne, Marist, @ Cornell, Princeton, @ Harvard
2012 - @ Marist, @ Delaware, Cornell, @ Harvard, Bryant
2013 - Marist, @ Cornell, Sacred Heart, @ Dartmouth, @ VMI

But looks entirely appropriate until program is competitive on a consistent basis and stepping-up opponents is warranted....apples & oranges if comparing to LU, et al discussion.

[The Maestro]

Last 5 OOC Schedules by team

Bucknell
2009 - @ Duquesne, Robert Morris, @ Cornell, Marist Penn
210 - @ Duquesne, @ Marist, Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn
2011 - Duquesne, Marist, @ Cornell, Princeton, @ Harvard
2012 - @ Marist, @ Delaware, Cornell, @ Harvard, Bryant
2013 - Marist, @ Cornell, Sacred Heart, @ Dartmouth, @ VMI

Colgate
2009 - Monmouth, Stony Brook, @ Darmouth, Cornell, @ Princeton
2010 - Monmouth, @ Furman, @ Syracuse, @ Princeton, @ Cornell
2011 - Albany, @ Darmouth, @ Towson, @ Monmouth, Cornell
2012 - @ Albany, @ South Dakota, Sacred Heart, @ Stony Brook, @ Yale
2013 - @ Air Force, Albany, @ UNH, Yale, @ Cornell, @ Stony Brook

Fordham
2009 - @ URI, Columbia, ODU, Bryant, @ Cornell
2010 - @ Bryant, URI, @ Columbia, Assumption, @ Yale
2011 - @ UConn, Columbia, @ URI, @ Penn, @ Army
2012 - Lock Haven, @ Villanova, Cornell, @ Columbia, @ Cincinnati
2013 - URI, Villanova, @ Temple, Columbia, @ St. Francis

Georgetown
2009 - Yale, Howard, @ ODU, @ Marist, Richmond
2010 - @ Davidson, @ Yale, Wagner, @ Sacred Heart, Marist
2011 - Davidson, @ Yale, @ Marist, @ Wagner, @ Howard
2012 - @ Davidson, Wagner, Yale, @ Princeton, Brown
2013 - @ Wagner, Davidson, Marist, @ Brown, Princeton

Holy Cross
2009 - Sacred Heart, Harvard, @ Northeastern, @ Brown, Dartmouth,
2010 - Howard, @ Umass, @ Harvard, Brown, @ Dartmouth
2011 - Umass, Harvard, @ UNH, @ Brown, Dartmouth
2012 - UNH, Brown, Dartmouth, @ Harvard, @ Wagner
2013 - @ Bryant, Towson, @ CCSU, Monmouth, @ Darmouth, Harvard

Lafayette
2009 - Liberty, Penn, @ Yale, Columbia, @ Harvard
2010 - @ Penn, @ Princeton, Harvard, @ Columbia, Stony Brook
2011 - @ NDSU, @ Penn, @ Stony Brook, Harvard, Yale
2012 - @ W&M, Penn, @ Robert Morris, Princeton, @ Yale
2013 - Sacred Heart, W&M, @ Penn, @ Princeton, @ Harvard

Lehigh
2009 - CCSU, @ Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale
2010 - @ Drake, Villanova, Princeton, @ UNH, @ Harvard
2011 - @ Monmouth, UNH, @ Princeton, Liberty, Yale
2012 - Monmouth, @ CCSU, Princeton, @ Liberty, Columbia
2013 - CCSU, @ Monmouth, @ Princeton, UNH, @ Columbia


Obviously 'Gate & Fordham tower over rest of PL in terms of "stepping up a class" with Pards getting an HM of late.....LU, not so much. Trade in one of the NEC's for an academy, academically-oriented FCS, or home & away FCS power outside the region and I'd be much happier (and inclined to attend an add'l game/year)

PS why does LU brethren on here refer to Princeton as a sacred "legacy game"? I like the game but does it stir more emotions (or fill the stands) more than Penn? If IL does effectively "boycott" scholly schools, then wins over them would be worth bupkus at tournament selection time. Also, I asked this before about Pioneer but didn't see answer: does FCS have auto qualifiers for conferences like hoops? Or is it simply the accepted practice? Just wondering if a 6-5 Colgate team with some ugly OOC losses would still have had ticket punched last year as PL champ if LU was 10-1 with a true signature win?

[RichH2]

Last 5 OOC Schedules by team

Bucknell
2009 - @ Duquesne, Robert Morris, @ Cornell, Marist Penn
210 - @ Duquesne, @ Marist, Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn
2011 - Duquesne, Marist, @ Cornell, Princeton, @ Harvard
2012 - @ Marist, @ Delaware, Cornell, @ Harvard, Bryant
2013 - Marist, @ Cornell, Sacred Heart, @ Dartmouth, @ VMI

Colgate
2009 - Monmouth, Stony Brook, @ Darmouth, Cornell, @ Princeton
2010 - Monmouth, @ Furman, @ Syracuse, @ Princeton, @ Cornell
2011 - Albany, @ Darmouth, @ Towson, @ Monmouth, Cornell
2012 - @ Albany, @ South Dakota, Sacred Heart, @ Stony Brook, @ Yale
2013 - @ Air Force, Albany, @ UNH, Yale, @ Cornell, @ Stony Brook

Fordham
2009 - @ URI, Columbia, ODU, Bryant, @ Cornell
2010 - @ Bryant, URI, @ Columbia, Assumption, @ Yale
2011 - @ UConn, Columbia, @ URI, @ Penn, @ Army
2012 - Lock Haven, @ Villanova, Cornell, @ Columbia, @ Cincinnati
2013 - URI, Villanova, @ Temple, Columbia, @ St. Francis

Georgetown
2009 - Yale, Howard, @ ODU, @ Marist, Richmond
2010 - @ Davidson, @ Yale, Wagner, @ Sacred Heart, Marist
2011 - Davidson, @ Yale, @ Marist, @ Wagner, @ Howard
2012 - @ Davidson, Wagner, Yale, @ Princeton, Brown
2013 - @ Wagner, Davidson, Marist, @ Brown, Princeton

Holy Cross
2009 - Sacred Heart, Harvard, @ Northeastern, @ Brown, Dartmouth,
2010 - Howard, @ Umass, @ Harvard, Brown, @ Dartmouth
2011 - Umass, Harvard, @ UNH, @ Brown, Dartmouth
2012 - UNH, Brown, Dartmouth, @ Harvard, @ Wagner
2013 - @ Bryant, Towson, @ CCSU, Monmouth, @ Darmouth, Harvard

Lafayette
2009 - Liberty, Penn, @ Yale, Columbia, @ Harvard
2010 - @ Penn, @ Princeton, Harvard, @ Columbia, Stony Brook
2011 - @ NDSU, @ Penn, @ Stony Brook, Harvard, Yale
2012 - @ W&M, Penn, @ Robert Morris, Princeton, @ Yale
2013 - Sacred Heart, W&M, @ Penn, @ Princeton, @ Harvard

Lehigh
2009 - CCSU, @ Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale
2010 - @ Drake, Villanova, Princeton, @ UNH, @ Harvard
2011 - @ Monmouth, UNH, @ Princeton, Liberty, Yale
2012 - Monmouth, @ CCSU, Princeton, @ Liberty, Columbia
2013 - CCSU, @ Monmouth, @ Princeton, UNH, @ Columbia


They all stink other than Gate an Rams.xbawlingx

[Pard4Life]

C'mon guys! Rams and Gate are not light years ahead... Rams scheduled two D2 teams!!

As for Colgate, take out Syracuse and AF and their schedule is identical or maybe a millimeter worse than Lafayette's.

It all goes back to a perception issue like I was arguing about earlier. Fordham's schedule doesn't have me saying "wow"... take away the FBS games and its no better than the rest of the PL, maybe worse. Army is probably the only worthy equal and the other FBS games... you might as well just say they don't exist. It does nothing for them because it's a loss against a likely far superior foe. They would be better served by playing SoCon, CAA (which they have), MVFC etc.

[RichH2]

OK P4L, on your scale all of them s*ck. Gotta start somewhere. At least Gate and Fordham have moved even if you disagree with their choice. Up to the rest of us to up our OOCs by one way or the other.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

OK P4L, on your scale all of them s*ck. Gotta start somewhere. At least Gate and Fordham have moved even if you disagree with their choice. Up to the rest of us to up our OOCs by one way or the other.

IMO, HC's 2011 schedule and Lehigh's 2010 and, to a slightly less extent, 2011 slate are about perfect. You want 1 perennial playoff and another solid Fringe Top 25/Certain Top 40 program.

Lehigh played more games against teams that were in the playoffs the previous year than anyone, 5.
Villanova 2009, 2010
UNH 2010, 2011, 2013

Bucknell - 0

Colgate - 4
2012 - Albany, Stony Brook
2013 - UNH, SBU

Fordham - 1
2013 - Villanova

Georgetown - 0

Holy Cross - 2
UNH 2011, 2012

Lafayette - 1
NDSU 2011

[RichH2]

Rating this yr's only. Non schollie yrs less relevant IMO

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Rating this yr's only. Non schollie yrs less relevant IMO

Then the entire PL is playing a grand total of three games against playoff teams from last year! Colgate - UNH & SBU, Lehigh - UNH

There's no reason for Colgate to be playing AF and Fordham to be traveling to Philly to take on Temple. It's pointless unless those two schools are hurting for money.

[The Maestro]

C'mon guys! Rams and Gate are not light years ahead... Rams scheduled two D2 teams!!

As for Colgate, take out Syracuse and AF and their schedule is identical or maybe a millimeter worse than Lafayette's.

It all goes back to a perception issue like I was arguing about earlier. Fordham's schedule doesn't have me saying "wow"... take away the FBS games and its no better than the rest of the PL, maybe worse. Army is probably the only worthy equal and the other FBS games... you might as well just say they don't exist. It does nothing for them because it's a loss against a likely far superior foe. They would be better served by playing SoCon, CAA (which they have), MVFC etc.

Spoken like a true Easton college graduate: "take out Syracuse and AF" and "take away the FBS games"......c'mon Pard, use that LC degree, one game is the whole point. Put it this way, replace Monmouth or CCSU with Syracuse, AF or Army and as an LU fan I'm happy with the slate (or a nationally recognized FCS program like you guys have done in the past.)

[The Maestro]

how is gate playing af a bad thing for the team or the school? or any pl team playing army or navy? what's the downside?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

how is gate playing af a bad thing for the team or the school? or any pl team playing army or navy? what's the downside?

What does it accomplish? You are an FCS program, play your peers!! Why doesn't Lehigh schedule Kutztown or ESU? It would be a wonderful experience for those kids right?

Army and Navy I understand to an extent because of their PL affiliation.

As an alum of a FBS school these games drive me crazy. Our biggest rival is Villanova so playing them is understandable. Likewise with EWU-Idaho or Montana vs Idaho. Our game against Fordham this year is a joke. We should be embarassed for scheduling a game like that...

[Lehigh'98]

Owl, are u sure u aren't Joe Sterrett? There is room for improvement. Lehigh scheduled themselves out of playoffs last year. Spin it all you want, we need to dump NEC and Lowe tier Ivy games and replace with low level FBS or CAA/FCS. This will also prepare us better for the playoffs. Not just getting in them.

[The Maestro]

What does it accomplish? You are an FCS program, play your peers!! Why doesn't Lehigh schedule Kutztown or ESU? It would be a wonderful experience for those kids right?

Army and Navy I understand to an extent because of their PL affiliation.

I think your argument makes sense if you were an alumnus of the fbs school....they have to scratch their head. but who doesn't love at least one chance to take on goliath? besides the nc it was a hilite of my era to have beaten rutgers and vmi/w&m/colgate when they were d1. should have won down at uva and army was a disaster on the scoreboard but a great experience.

app state knocking off um did more for their name recognition than a half dozen socon titles or nc's. one "step up"/season or as someone said before maybe every 4 years should be a goal for no other reason than the excitement.

ps fwiw, lu made a habit of giving a psac school a shot every year...honestly tough to get up for from our end and was a "no win" situation...had a few struggles along the way. the one year we scheduled "up" we played uconn at home....49-0 for the good guys. go figure. but my point is that i'm sure it was a thrill for kutztown, esu, millersville, wcsu, etc to come to bethlehem.....us going to the rock for some god-forsaken reason...not so much!

[The Maestro]

agree '98 though it's tough to know what ivy team will be "up" when your years away from actual game (though penn/harvard/brown have certainly proven to be "chalk" the past few years). joe's done a great job overall so i'm not sure why he's not stepped up to the plate in this regard. hell, he was the qb on the team that knocked off rutgers.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Owl, are u sure u aren't Joe Sterrett? There is room for improvement. Lehigh scheduled themselves out of playoffs last year. Spin it all you want, we need to dump NEC and Lowe tier Ivy games and replace with low level FBS or CAA/FCS. This will also prepare us better for the playoffs. Not just getting in them.

You can't completely stop playing NEC teams. They are a regional playoff conference so it makes sense to continue playing one a year. As for scheduling the better Ivies, Penn will no longer play Lehigh, correct? Didn't Harvard just announce recently they are dropping HC? So you're left with Brown, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Dartmouth and Cornell.

The other thing is, you can schedule whoever you like but you better win the games. Getting into the playoffs, while obviously great, should not be ultimate goal. Advancing deep into December should be. In order to do that you MUST get home playoff games. The % of home teams that win in the playoffs has to be close to 85%.

[The Maestro]

what's the story on penn refusing to play lu? gotta admit i missed that.....andy-related or some other reason?

[RichH2]

Simple Penn dumped a scheduled game for another opponent with basically no notice or chance for us to get another game. Cavalierly done as if we were just there for Penn's benefit and s/n be upset. Joe went nuts will never schedule them again. Cant blame him but I did enjoy the series.

[Gater]

Colgate also has 2012 playoff team Stony Brook in 2013

I'm a huge fan of what Fordham has meant to this league by forcing the scholarship issue. I love that they have played/scheduled Army, Cincinnati, UCONN and Temple in these years.

Love that Colgate is back to playing reach games like Syracuse and has Air Force, Ball State and Navy in the next few years and apparently Army and Vanderbilt after that.

[The Maestro]

thanks, wasn't aware rich; sounds like penn caught a touch of delaware's "superiority complex" (both for unfounded reasons). if that's the whole story then agree that we're better off sayin' screw'em.

[RichH2]

Penn gave a slightly sanitized version from their side but first hand I know LU's version correct. Penn had their reasons but the way it was done our reaction is appropriate.

Back to this thread, speaking of UD wouldn't mind seeing that series resume. Now that Keeler gone ( unfairly true) could be possible. They s*ck now but still would be a plus over Monmouth. Monmouth may become a fixture tho now that Pres is a Lehigh guy.

[Lehigh'98]

What's wrong with trying to get a 2nd CAA on the schedule? They are all regional. Albany, SB, Richmond, Delaware, Nova all make plenty of sense. These games are a. winnable b. increase national perception c. prepare team for upgraded speed of playoffs.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Penn gave a slightly sanitized version from their side but first hand I know LU's version correct. Penn had their reasons but the way it was done our reaction is appropriate.

Back to this thread, speaking of UD wouldn't mind seeing that series resume. Now that Keeler gone ( unfairly true) could be possible. They s*ck now but still would be a plus over Monmouth. Monmouth may become a fixture tho now that Pres is a Lehigh guy.

Wasn't Lehigh dropped for the likes of San Diego and Duquesne? Penn claimed they wanted to diversify their schedule more if I remember correctly?

[The Maestro]

Penn gave a slightly sanitized version from their side but first hand I know LU's version correct. Penn had their reasons but the way it was done our reaction is appropriate.

Back to this thread, speaking of UD wouldn't mind seeing that series resume. Now that Keeler gone ( unfairly true) could be possible. They s*ck now but still would be a plus over Monmouth. Monmouth may become a fixture tho now that Pres is a Lehigh guy.

at this point a win over monmouth doesn't give us anything different than ccsu, sacred heart, et al. financially gotta think it's a loser too. i'm repeating myself i know, but lets schedule monmouth as long as that's our ONLY ONE "step down game" (which doesn't mean it's an auto W; only that we get zero "style points" for a victory). UNH is a great game given their history of being in playoffs. can't go wrong with upper tier caa's (w&m, nova, and ur are perfect "peer" schools) and i was fine with the liberty pick. H&A with a perennially solid socon, big south (though they seem to be in disarray), or even more distant team would be fine though i'm not sure of the financial ramifications....do we benefit greatly from playing in front of 20kplus at delaware or 15-16k at liberty? wonder what the take-home is from a citadel, furman, or wofford would be?

[RichH2]

That was the reason put out by UP. They actually had already scheduled the new game,and revealing it before notifying us to late to get a new game. That we had very good teams made us much less attractive for them I guess.
Like UNH, competitive a good barometer of where teams is. This yr we have lots of new moving parts to get meshed. CCSU & MU probably good for us . Princeton may be better but not that good. No other OOC games that help.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That was the reason put out by UP. They actually had already scheduled the new game,and revealing it before notifying us to late to get a new game. That we had very good teams made us much less attractive for them I guess.
Like UNH, competitive a good barometer of where teams is. This yr we have lots of new moving parts to get meshed. CCSU & MU probably good for us . Princeton may be better but not that good. No other OOC games that help.

I believe Columbia is the true eyesore on the schedule. CCSU had a really good run going before their recent slide. Monmouth makes sense from a logistical standpoint. Columbia makes zero sense imo. They are as bad as you can get reputation wise in FCS.

[RichH2]

Worst game on schedule. 2 weak Ivies, 2 weak NEC and UNH does not in any universe add up to even a moderatedly good OOC. Both NEC had decent runs but not competitve now. Wagner, a very good team would be nice NYC choice over Lions

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Worst game on schedule. 2 weak Ivies, 2 weak NEC and UNH does not in any universe add up to even a moderatedly good OOC. Both NEC had decent runs but not competitve now. Wagner, a very good team would be nice NYC choice over Lions

Princeton is not a "weak" Ivy imo. They're average, mediocre, decent etc but not weak. Just ask Lafayette. It's always tougher when you play them yearly. They make an ideal middle tier OOC opponent.

The Tigers have been better than Cornell, Colgate's main IL, over the last 25 years.

[RichH2]

A 500 Ivy is not a plus game for OOC. Good game to play. They always show up and battle. Competitive games usually til late

[bonarae]

With the reasons you guys (PL guys) gave me, I now have motivation for switching loyalties to a CAA team after this season. I am already getting sick and tired of the Ivies constricting themselves... xsmhx

[RichH2]

Gee bonarae, after all these years you s/b used to our annual summer b*tch fest. How IL and PL continues is up to IL ADs . We'll see when we see some schedules for 15 and 16. Dont think our ties will ever sever totally. Do wish you guys would at least add a game, even if no playoffs.

[Pard4Life]

Princeton is not a "weak" Ivy imo. They're average, mediocre, decent etc but not weak. Just ask Lafayette. It's always tougher when you play them yearly. They make an ideal middle tier OOC opponent.

The Tigers have been better than Cornell, Colgate's main IL, over the last 25 years.

No, don't ask Lafayette about Princeton. The Tigers could suit up Betty White and Sylvia Sydney in the backfield and we'd still give up 300 on the ground and lose by 28.

Princeton will be on the better side of mediocre. They have been weak the past few years but likely no longer, with that offense they are installing.

[Pard4Life]

Then the entire PL is playing a grand total of three games against playoff teams from last year! Colgate - UNH & SBU, Lehigh - UNH

There's no reason for Colgate to be playing AF and Fordham to be traveling to Philly to take on Temple. It's pointless unless those two schools are hurting for money.

Yes, this is what I have been saying the past two pages.... further it does nothing really for SoS... it's an illusion and inflationary.

[Pard4Life]

Spoken like a true Easton college graduate: "take out Syracuse and AF" and "take away the FBS games"......c'mon Pard, use that LC degree, one game is the whole point. Put it this way, replace Monmouth or CCSU with Syracuse, AF or Army and as an LU fan I'm happy with the slate (or a nationally recognized FCS program like you guys have done in the past.)

... and that one game is the whole point I'm arguing against. Unless it's someone like Army, Navy or a weak FBS like Buffalo a few years ago and UMass, we shouldn't bother. Adding Syracuse and AF to the schedule does nothing for SoS... the games might as well not even exist.

[Pard4Life]

Owl, are u sure u aren't Joe Sterrett? There is room for improvement. Lehigh scheduled themselves out of playoffs last year. Spin it all you want, we need to dump NEC and Lowe tier Ivy games and replace with low level FBS or CAA/FCS. This will also prepare us better for the playoffs. Not just getting in them.

Yup... and scheduling Oklahoma, Penn State or West Virgina won't do a darn thing... except a paycheck.

[Pard4Life]

Gee bonarae, after all these years you s/b used to our annual summer b*tch fest. How IL and PL continues is up to IL ADs . We'll see when we see some schedules for 15 and 16. Dont think our ties will ever sever totally. Do wish you guys would at least add a game, even if no playoffs.

We will know in a few weeks about 2016, but LC has Harvard on the docket until at least 2015. Princeton too I think. Penn is off after this year. Too bad. They are 2 on my top 5 hate list... though c2 says 1-5 should solely be Lehigh.

[RichH2]

Sadur SID dos not deign to share future schedules as in the past. We will know 16 late in 15.Do think Princeton s/b better. Heck , they could beat us but they are around a 500 team 6-4 4-6 range.

[The Maestro]

... and that one game is the whole point I'm arguing against. Unless it's someone like Army, Navy or a weak FBS like Buffalo a few years ago and UMass, we shouldn't bother. Adding Syracuse and AF to the schedule does nothing for SoS... the games might as well not even exist.


... and that one game is the whole point I'm arguing against. Unless it's someone like Army, Navy or a weak FBS like Buffalo a few years ago and UMass, we shouldn't bother. Adding Syracuse and AF to the schedule does nothing for SoS... the games might as well not even exist.

1 what distinction are you making btw air force and army/navy.....why viewing differently?

2 in the past decade i don't think there's a discernible difference on-the-field btw syracuse and umass/buffalo

3 "does nothing for sos"?? compared to ivy, nes or pioneer, hell any fcs opponents? can't figure out how any knowledgeable & reasonable observer can claim that

[Pard4Life]

1 what distinction are you making btw air force and army/navy.....why viewing differently?

2 in the past decade i don't think there's a discernible difference on-the-field btw syracuse and umass/buffalo

3 "does nothing for sos"?? compared to ivy, nes or pioneer, hell any fcs opponents? can't figure out how any knowledgeable & reasonable observer can claim that

1) Air Force is a pretty good program that can usually beat anyone in their conference. Mountain West is pretty tough. Army gets dominated by Stony Brook and Navy plays some top teams but is more often on par with the MACs of the world.

2) Yes now that I think, you are right... but I can't see them staying that way in the ACC.

3) In an absolute sense, yes, it's great for SoS to play an FBS. Like Norfolk state scheduling Florida State and Oklahoma. But I'm referring to SoS with an eye towards qualifying and building a resume for the FCS playoffs... I was talking about it in this frame 3-4 pages ago. It's inflation and falsely claiming you played good teams and therefore should be given preference for the playoffs.

Ironically, scheduling an FBS OOC didn't help Lehigh in 2003.

[Lehigh'98]

1 what distinction are you making btw air force and army/navy.....why viewing differently?

2 in the past decade i don't think there's a discernible difference on-the-field btw syracuse and umass/buffalo

3 "does nothing for sos"?? compared to ivy, nes or pioneer, hell any fcs opponents? can't figure out how any knowledgeable & reasonable observer can claim that

He's basically saying and I agree, that losing to tough FBS schools doesn't mean anything as any team could do it.

[Neighbor2]

Always thought Lehigh and Lafayette's alligience to the Ivys was to ensure bloodies and plaid trousers remain in vogue.

[Pard4Life]

He's basically saying and I agree, that losing to tough FBS schools doesn't mean anything as any team could do it.

Yup... that too. Artificial inflation... aka FBS sterioids... a trip to Biogenesis.

[RichH2]

Only reasons for FBS are ego and $$$.
Funny neighbor partly true for some but Ivies are indentured servitude for me.

Anyway would love to beat a service acad or a ranked FCS team over worrying about getting lots of FBS games.

[Lehigh'98]

I do think you should be rewarded if you beat a respectable FBS team, but, as Heisenberg says "YOU GET NOTHING" if you lose.

[Sader87]

Only reasons for FBS are ego and $$$.
Funny neighbor partly true for some but Ivies are indentured servitude for me.

Anyway would love to beat a service acad or a ranked FCS team over worrying about getting lots of FBS games.

Couldn't disagree more....would much rather HC scheduled BC, UMass or UConn once a year over some random FCS school.

[Neighbor2]

For elite PL schools, doesn't it come down to whatever final result works best for alumni donors (and institutional ego)?

I mean, 10-1, no matter what the level of competition, is far better than 7-4 on any day. Unless, of course, you are Holy Cross. Then, your ultimate goal is to be discussed in the same breath with Notre Dame!

[RichH2]

LMAO neighbor, sums up Cross perfectly. No, 87 I wouldn't want random FCS,I want ranked FCS, We'll chalk Cross up at 0-1 every yr they play BC.if ever Heck I would like to play Rutgers once in a while for old times sake but not every yr.If school hard up for $$$ for football well then FBS makes some sense each yr.

[Neighbor2]

Rich,

My thing is this. Lehigh football goes WAY back. It has more tradition than most every other program in the country. Rivalries go deep, traditions matter. Why stop now? I mean, does a Top Ten ranking in FCS transcend historical value?

NO!

Keep playing the Ivys, and other old friends. It's bedrock.

[Sader87]

This year's HC schedule is horrendous and has been a topic of discussion amoungst alumni for months....I'm not saying we play BC every year, just every few years, sprinkled in with Army, UMass etc.

I can see playing a Bryant or CCSU or a Monmouth once a year but to play all three in one season is absurd....a lot of HC alums would rather drop football altogether than to continue having schedules like this.

[RichH2]

Not saying we should quit playing Ivies .Always will have one or two every yr but most some Ivies (Harvard) have said they will stop scheduling us as schollies kick in. IL has little choice but to keep a few each yr as there other choices are the CAA, SoCon,NEC et al. Not an appetizing outlook. I go futher back with LU than I sometimes care to recall. Started with Leckonby. Love our tradition but we cant be like Ivies and let tradutition strangle us. It must complement the program not control it.

[The Maestro]

well at least i have one fellow advocate in sader 87.

IF, and it's a big if, a play-off invite is one of your objestives, then LFN said it pretty well last year:

"Look up and down the at-large field of ten teams to the FCS playoffs. You'll see a lot of teams with the same scheduling mentality: schedule an FBS squad, and a couple struggling FCS squads, or a non-D-I team. When tournament time comes, they are counting that the committee will look at the FBS games and say, "wow, they played Wyoming, so they played a tough schedule". And they do."

there's no way to know the answer, but what this comes down to is me wondering if a 37-34 2 ot LOSS last yr leaving LU at 9-2 to say wofford, richmond, etc or better yet, one of the academies, tulane, rice, duke, etc. doesn't possibly get us in where 10-1 didn;t . who knows,

ps pard4: middies 8-2 vs air force last 10 yrs.....but then just as you yourself mention that plays into "perception" of af playing in a competitive conference. hopefully with schollies and some ooc & playoff success the whole nat'l picture of pl football will change. but you gotta beef up teams you play for that to happen, and then beat them (though lu's history of playoff success didn't carry enough weight last yr)

[RichH2]

87

Feel your pain 3 in one yr underwhelming in the extreme. Ours no shining example either other than UNH. Lets hope ADs are working to get some games

[Go...gate]

How is Colgate playing Air Force a bad thing for the team or the school? or any pl team playing army or navy? what's the downside?

Or the whole conference, for that matter?

[Neighbor2]

Sader87,

Things change. This is NOT the Holy Cross of old. The Bryants, CCSUs, Monmouths is the crowd YOUR administration has chosen to go. Evidently, big-time football is more expensive than Holy Cross can handle right now.

You do understand, playing the "big boys" now means going on the road and having losing seasons most years. The focus is NOT in that direction. Did you hear Bucknell won the Orange Bowl?

[Go...gate]

... and that one game is the whole point I'm arguing against. Unless it's someone like Army, Navy or a weak FBS like Buffalo a few years ago and UMass, we shouldn't bother. Adding Syracuse and AF to the schedule does nothing for SoS... the games might as well not even exist.

Why should schools who are willing to step up and play someone good not get credit for stepping up?

[Sader87]

HC plays Army in 2014 or 2015 I'm told...the thing is, most HC alums could care less about the FCS playoffs. Even when HC was a year-in, year-out Top 20 1-AA school in the 80's most alums/HC subway alumni fans cared more about the BC game than the playoffs. HC actually chose to eschew the playoffs in 1984 to play BC rather than be in the 1-AA play-offs.

Yes, times have changed but I still think most HC fans would be more psyched to play a BC/UMass/Army in October than a North Dakota St in late November.

[Go...gate]

well at least i have one fellow advocate in sader 87.

IF, and it's a big if, a play-off invite is one of your objestives, then LFN said it pretty well last year:

"Look up and down the at-large field of ten teams to the FCS playoffs. You'll see a lot of teams with the same scheduling mentality: schedule an FBS squad, and a couple struggling FCS squads, or a non-D-I team. When tournament time comes, they are counting that the committee will look at the FBS games and say, "wow, they played Wyoming, so they played a tough schedule". And they do."

there's no way to know the answer, but what this comes down to is me wondering if a 37-34 2 ot LOSS last yr leaving LU at 9-2 to say wofford, richmond, etc or better yet, one of the academies, tulane, rice, duke, etc. doesn't possibly get us in where 10-1 didn;t . who knows,

ps pard4: middies 8-2 vs air force last 10 yrs.....but then just as you yourself mention that plays into "perception" of af playing in a competitive conference. hopefully with schollies and some ooc & playoff success the whole nat'l picture of pl football will change. but you gotta beef up teams you play for that to happen, and then beat them (though lu's history of playoff success didn't carry enough weight last yr)

Right.

[RichH2]

Look FBS games are nice for $$$ and look great on schedules, good for recruiting, nice for alumni egos. Just dont expect or wish to have one every yr. For me, we are here in FCS, so I want to try to be the best we can be in our world of the present not worry so much about the past. Tradition is great and s/b remembered fondly and continued as much as appropriate for the players and school now. Watching the tortured convolutions of the Ivies to let the past control their present and future, I do not want that for PL or Lehigh. Why should the fact that I played in big game 50 yrs ago determine who our kids should play now.

[Pard4Life]

well at least i have one fellow advocate in sader 87.

IF, and it's a big if, a play-off invite is one of your objestives, then LFN said it pretty well last year:

"Look up and down the at-large field of ten teams to the FCS playoffs. You'll see a lot of teams with the same scheduling mentality: schedule an FBS squad, and a couple struggling FCS squads, or a non-D-I team. When tournament time comes, they are counting that the committee will look at the FBS games and say, "wow, they played Wyoming, so they played a tough schedule". And they do."

there's no way to know the answer, but what this comes down to is me wondering if a 37-34 2 ot LOSS last yr leaving LU at 9-2 to say wofford, richmond, etc or better yet, one of the academies, tulane, rice, duke, etc. doesn't possibly get us in where 10-1 didn;t . who knows,

ps pard4: middies 8-2 vs air force last 10 yrs.....but then just as you yourself mention that plays into "perception" of af playing in a competitive conference. hopefully with schollies and some ooc & playoff success the whole nat'l picture of pl football will change. but you gotta beef up teams you play for that to happen, and then beat them (though lu's history of playoff success didn't carry enough weight last yr)

LFN is confusing correlation-causation. Those ten at large teams come exclusively from the power conferences and receive their berths via how well they did vs their league and the overall strength of their league. That's what makes SoS. And a majority of these teams play FBS for the money. Don't blame them, but it does not help their playoff chances, unless the committee is stupid. It's a steroid tactic.

[Pard4Life]

Why should schools who are willing to step up and play someone good not get credit for stepping up?

Because it's insane! It's a steroid! You want credit for stepping-up and playing Penn State or WVU? You get credit for stepping-up and playing Delaware, Furman, Nova... not a BCS heavy-weight. It may work in basketball but never has in football... look at those old Swarthmore-Princeton scores.

[Pard4Life]

The only way PL gets respect... which I think it has a fair amount on the national level amongst media and admin (forget the yahoos on here)... is winning half or more than half against their OOCs against top conferences,
routinely getting past the first round and into semis, and winning a title. Not scheduling FBS games to increase SoS and thereby our program's competitive level. If we become that top conference like how I outlined above, then maybe Lehigh's soft NEC OOC wouldn't be such a big deal.

The PL was on a great track in the first half of the 2000s, but then we lost momentum... two-bid league late 90s, 2004-05. Gate title game. LU #1 in 2002... Fordham round two... Lehigh going to round two several years. Would have been two-bid league in 2009 but Pards tanked... still 3 top 25 teams though.

[RichH2]

Agree P4L PL on a role then and no schollies. We s/b able to do it again. Most wgt in SOS has to be the strength of your conference foes.. I would guess that would outweigh any possible upside from an FBS game. I think new formula is supposed to make selections less about rep and more about FCS peformance. Doubt it really will.Point is worth repeating that alumni ego to the side PL should improve OOC with ranked FCS that we can win rather than a Temple or BC which we will lose. Dont see how school or PL gains from a shellacking . That said Big Sky and MV guys will never admit we're any good . Our players actually have to have brains and go to class.

[Pard4Life]

Haha yeah... would love to go into Montana or Fargo Dome and push those guys around. But hey at least the Pards know what it's like to score there. xrolleyesx

But yeah alumni ego is another thing ie HC and BC. I've heard Pard alums think that we could take on Rutgers again every year. It'd be cool, but once every four years is enough.

[The Maestro]

Ideal scenario for Patriot's rep going large (I disagree with your assertion that PL is viewed favorably in FCS circles....where's your proof; playoff selections speak volumes):

1 W or L, Gate plays AF tough, sweeps CAA;
2 W or L, Fordham plays Temple tough, sweeps CAA;
3 LU & LC sweep CAA and both undefeated in League and play for championship.
4 UNH wins CAA; Temple and Air Force go 6-5 or better.

Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be a single win from Bison, Hoyas, or Crusaders that will help PL's perception, and if LC/LU don't win outright & get auto they'll have a tough time, even at 24. And losses by Gate, Fordham, LU, or LC to a NEC, Pioneer, or low Ivy or blow-out at hands of CAA/top-tier Ivy plays into current perceptions.

Hey, a guy can dream can't he?

[Go...gate]

Because it's insane! It's a steroid! You want credit for stepping-up and playing Penn State or WVU? You get credit for stepping-up and playing Delaware, Furman, Nova... not a BCS heavy-weight. It may work in basketball but never has in football... look at those old Swarthmore-Princeton scores.

Oh, come on. Rather than playing a school that has chosed to be a big fish in a small pond, like Delaware or Villanova (who SHOULD be in FBS anyway), why not play a real card-carrying FBS team?

[Go...gate]

Haha yeah... would love to go into Montana or Fargo Dome and push those guys around. But hey at least the Pards know what it's like to score there. xrolleyesx

But yeah alumni ego is another thing ie HC and BC. I've heard Pard alums think that we could take on Rutgers again every year. It'd be cool, but once every four years is enough.

It's not going to happen now, anyway, with the Big Ten edict against FCS games. A real shame, in my opinion.

[The Maestro]

Because it's insane! It's a steroid! You want credit for stepping-up and playing Penn State or WVU? You get credit for stepping-up and playing Delaware, Furman, Nova... not a BCS heavy-weight. It may work in basketball but never has in football... look at those old Swarthmore-Princeton scores.

you're saying psu/wvu, no one else is....i'm not advocating a towson/lsu or wofford/clemson or coastal/georgia....and no one wants a savannah state fiasco. but pl will continue to be viewed as a 2nd tier conference without some dates (and some success) vs top 20 fcs and/or lower level bcs.. like it or not, if that;s what peer group is doing then you have to or suffer the perception problems that exist today.

i'm not saying it's a pure analogy, but how is LU hoops team scheduling the likes of usc, baylor, johnnies, psu, iowa state, etc the past few years any different from whats being suggested.....opponent upgrade?

[RichH2]

Agre maestro, altho dont think any of us think Big Boys in FCS have a favorable view of us. Rather we are mocked rather regularly by west FCS as pretenders who dont play a real schedule. No matter how well PL has done in Playoffs, that rep will only fade when we play them regular season and compete. Playing them and losing 45-0 worse than not playing them. Build our teams first upgrade sched s yr to yr. Make our own rep sep from our old Ivy Lite brand.

[Sader87]

Ideal scenario for Patriot's rep going large (I disagree with your assertion that PL is viewed favorably in FCS circles....where's your proof; playoff selections speak volumes):

1 W or L, Gate plays AF tough, sweeps CAA;
2 W or L, Fordham plays Temple tough, sweeps CAA;
3 LU & LC sweep CAA and both undefeated in League and play for championship.
4 UNH wins CAA; Temple and Air Force go 6-5 or better.

Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be a single win from Bison, Hoyas, or Crusaders that will help PL's perception, and if LC/LU don't win outright & get auto they'll have a tough time, even at 24. And losses by Gate, Fordham, LU, or LC to a NEC, Pioneer, or low Ivy or blow-out at hands of CAA/top-tier Ivy plays into current perceptions.

Hey, a guy can dream can't he?

HC does play Towson at Fitton this year....

[The Maestro]

HC does play Towson at Fitton this year....

my bad sader, missed that....tu should be especially tough this yr; a W would be HUGE

Rich, comment was intended for Pards4 though to be fair, he was talking about media and admin sector....have no idea re. admin but i don't even agree with media. my sense is once you leave mid atlantic/new england then we become 2nd class as a league (ie) the big east/mtn west of fcs; some competitive teams BUT...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN is confusing correlation-causation. Those ten at large teams come exclusively from the power conferences and receive their berths via how well they did vs their league and the overall strength of their league. That's what makes SoS. And a majority of these teams play FBS for the money. Don't blame them, but it does not help their playoff chances, unless the committee is stupid. It's a steroid tactic.

So how do you explain Illinois State last season? Didn't beat a single MVFC playoff team. Lost to 6-5 Southern Illinois and 3-8 Missouri State. But they outlasted 7-4 Eastern Illinois in Week 2. And beat the worst team in the FBS last season, Eastern Michigan.

What did Illinois State do in the conference that was so special? Not a hell of a lot. But every single MVFC team scheduled an FBS team, and two of those games were wins. Magically, "schedule strength". Call it inflation, call it steroids, whatever, but it's how the decisions are made for the playoffs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL was on a great track in the first half of the 2000s, but then we lost momentum... two-bid league late 90s, 2004-05. Gate title game. LU #1 in 2002... Fordham round two... Lehigh going to round two several years. Would have been two-bid league in 2009 but Pards tanked... still 3 top 25 teams though.

What an extraordinary coincidence that this is about when the rule for 56.5 scholarships for FCS-win-bowl-eligibility came about, opening the floodgates for such games.

[BisonFan02]

Any PL team is more than welcome to make the trip out to Fargo for OOC games. We'll keep the beer cold for you.

[BisonFan02]

....anyone from the Ivy too as well.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

A Yale fan posted that Lehigh and Fordham will be at the Bowl in '14.

[Go...gate]

my bad sader, missed that....tu should be especially tough this yr; a W would be HUGE

Rich, comment was intended for Pards4 though to be fair, he was talking about media and admin sector....have no idea re. admin but i don't even agree with media. my sense is once you leave mid atlantic/new england then we become 2nd class as a league (ie) the big east/mtn west of fcs; some competitive teams BUT...

Let's face it - that's the way it is right now. The PL schools have diverse ideas about what "competitive" truly means.

[RichH2]

LFN

Valid examples of SOS inflation. My point earlier is that Sky and MV area littered with local mid and low level FBS teams . Lots of weather vane state schools. we re not. I still would not skew our schedule annually for that magic wand. One or two every 4 yrs for each class OK. Oherwise , lets get some H-H series in place vs CAA,SoCon. Every yr should have at least 2 ranked OOC. That with a couple of ranked PL squads make a good schedule.

[CFBfan]

LFN

Valid examples of SOS inflation. My point earlier is that Sky and MV area littered with local mid and low level FBS teams . Lots of weather vane state schools. we re not. I still would not skew our schedule annually for that magic wand. One or two every 4 yrs for each class OK. Oherwise , lets get some H-H series in place vs CAA,SoCon. Every yr should have at least 2 ranked OOC. That with a couple of ranked PL squads make a good schedule.

Very good perspective, PL's just need to avoid or in some cases at least reduce the "cream puffs" and let's not knock a PL team that want s to play an FBS, there's nothing wrong with that and it's always better to play up as opposed to down. (btw: i'm not saying that you do/did this!).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Seems like a blog post talking about scheduling will be in the works today for me. It won't be nasty, just how I feel scheduling should be vs. what it actually is. The points on this thread are actually all very well taken (even P4L's ;) )

[DFW HOYA]

Seems like a blog post talking about scheduling will be in the works today for me. It won't be nasty, just how I feel scheduling should be vs. what it actually is. The points on this thread are actually all very well taken (even P4L's ;) )

A suggetion for the column--does conference strength of schedule affect this discussion? In some sports, some conferences enforce "suggested" minimums--for example, no D-II opponents, or no opponents below a certain RPI. Football is different, of course, but does the softer scheduling philosophy at the back of the conference (Bucknell, Georgetown) impact how Colgate and Lehigh's numbers are viewed, or is it otherwise dismissed if they get that elusive I-A game?

[RichH2]

No matter which path any of our members choose, it is necessary for each to schedule up as much as possible. Looking thru IL future schediules( thanks P4L), seems Hoyas are getting lots of IL games. LU does seem to be a fixture on Princeton thru 17 , cept for a one or two.

[Pard4Life]

Ivy avoiding PL because of schollies seems somewhat unfounded... think we spoke about this in the past.

Unless these schedules were set in stone ten years ago, Ivies not shying away from us. Princeton plays LU-LC four times each through 2017... same with Colgate. Though one year Tigger mixes in Davidson and San Diego. No big deal.

As for the others, Yale is going with Army and Fordham in 2014.

Penn is playing Jacksonville (??) but Nova and Fordham. Can't blame them for wanting a cupcake.

Cornell has even inked a series with Delaware starting in 2015.

And I know Harvard is sticking with LC for awhile.

[RichH2]

Think we are still some years out from impact. No schollie has even taken the field yet. 2-3 classes of schollies will alter balance a bit.IL may be over estimating impact of merit aid. They will still get more *** than PL IMO. Depth of talent may swing more to PL tho. Lets see what 16-17 and onward bring.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Think we are still some years out from impact. No schollie has even taken the field yet. 2-3 classes of schollies will alter balance a bit.IL may be over estimating impact of merit aid. They will still get more *** than PL IMO. Depth of talent may swing more to PL tho. Lets see what 16-17 and onward bring.

People keep saying this. But Colgate is opening with Air Force this season. As a counter.

[RichH2]

Referring to impact on Ivy scheduling. Looking forward to see how Gate does vs AF. Having schollies and their impact on the field are 2 different time scales.

[Pard4Life]

LFN, Colgate scheduled Air Force in 2006. They have probably been at the counter level for awhile. And the Syracuse game was an impromptu add... though not sure if that was a counter since all schools seemed to have reduced football aid in some form, even if miniscule. Unless you are LC and just gut everything.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, Colgate scheduled Air Force in 2006. They have probably been at the counter level for awhile. And the Syracuse game was an impromptu add... though not sure if that was a counter since all schools seemed to have reduced football aid in some form, even if miniscule. Unless you are LC and just gut everything.

I know for a fact that Colgate was a counter when they played Syracuse. And I think it's fair to assume that Air Force was given some guarantee that Colgate would be a counter in 2014.

Point being, all the people who are saying "wait-and-see-about scholarships" have missed the bus already. The play-an-FBS-team-bandwagon is here already, and in fact has been here for a while, as long as schools have had a will to become counters.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This year's HC schedule is horrendous and has been a topic of discussion amoungst alumni for months....I'm not saying we play BC every year, just every few years, sprinkled in with Army, UMass etc.

I can see playing a Bryant or CCSU or a Monmouth once a year but to play all three in one season is absurd....a lot of HC alums would rather drop football altogether than to continue having schedules like this.

Does BC have any desire to play HC? Maybe for a one time deal for old times sake. Otherwise, I don't see BC folks having any interest....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Because it's insane! It's a steroid! You want credit for stepping-up and playing Penn State or WVU? You get credit for stepping-up and playing Delaware, Furman, Nova... not a BCS heavy-weight. It may work in basketball but never has in football... look at those old Swarthmore-Princeton scores.

I completely agree. Stepping up is not playing FBS teams. Stepping up is going on the road to Wofford or Montana. I don't believe Colgate should be lauded for taking a paycheck to go play Air Force. Hopefully ESPN cracks a funny toothpaste joke when the Falcons hang half a hundred....

[DFW HOYA]

I know for a fact that Colgate was a counter when they played Syracuse. And I think it's fair to assume that Air Force was given some guarantee that Colgate would be a counter in 2014.

Point being, all the people who are saying "wait-and-see-about scholarships" have missed the bus already. The play-an-FBS-team-bandwagon is here already, and in fact has been here for a while, as long as schools have had a will to become counters.

It was my understanding Colgate and Fordham have been counters since 2009, that Lehigh, Fordham, and Lafayette reach counter status with its second scholarship class (2014), with Bucknell by 2015. Georgetown is not pursuing counter status.

Can someone confirm, correct, or refute this?

[RichH2]

Cant speak to rest but LU was down to low 50s for a while but are at present a counter.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Cant speak to rest but LU was down to low 50s for a while but are at present a counter.

Did Lafayette and Lehigh drop their counters thinking scholarships were coming 5 or so years ago? There was an obvious lack of depth at Lehigh for that brief stretch after Lembo left. The starters were pretty good which is why there were so many close losses. Just not enough depth....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I completely agree. Stepping up is not playing FBS teams. Stepping up is going on the road to Wofford or Montana. I don't believe Colgate should be lauded for taking a paycheck to go play Air Force. Hopefully ESPN cracks a funny toothpaste joke when the Falcons hang half a hundred....

Montana may take that phone call, but Wofford sure isn't. They were quite happy scheduling Chuck South and Lincoln (D-II) as home cupcakes last season. When you have two OOC games and one is already slotted for an FBS game, how many vacancies from the Wofford and Montana perspective are left? Especially since games vs. Lehigh and St. Francis "count" the same, in the eyes of the committee?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Montana may take that phone call, but Wofford sure isn't. They were quite happy scheduling Chuck South and Lincoln (D-II) as home cupcakes last season. When you have two OOC games and one is already slotted for an FBS game, how many vacancies from the Wofford and Montana perspective are left? Especially since games vs. Lehigh and St. Francis "count" the same, in the eyes of the committee?

Montana is willing to get a little adventurous with their sceheduling. Heck, Montana State is welcoming Monmouth to start the year (I'll be there).

Lehigh's already smacked around Wofford a couple of times. Maybe they'd be willing to try their luck with someone else. The SoCon could become a very average country once GSU and App State leave. They might be forced too.

[RichH2]

owl
i got conficting stories but bottomline funding for AD was cut. Some info that we hit very low 50s ,even high 40s for a short time. Truth? Dunno. Funding back up 11-14. Dont believe cuts were preplanning for schollies but guess that could have been a factor.

[RichH2]

Top of Soon may not be as daunting but they are still a very tough conference. Hope some deals can be made.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Top of Soon may not be as daunting but they are still a very tough conference. Hope some deals can be made.

Furman needs to get their act together. They have not been to the playoffs since 2006. The Paladins were one of the "flagship" programs when I really started following FCS closesly (late 90's). It might be Wofford and everyone else for the next couple of years.

[DFW HOYA]

Not sure about reductions, but the PL's EADA numbers from 2005-06 through 2011-12 show a steady gain in most programs.

1. Fordham
2005-06: $3,898,156
2011-12: $5,742,437
Change: +47.3%

2. Colgate
2005-06: $3,628,807
2011-12: $4,655,304
Change: +28.2%

3. Lehigh
2005-06: $3,261,340
2011-12: $4,486,823
Change: +38.5%

4. Lafayette
2005-06: $3,109,946
2011-12: $4,307,856
Change: +37.5%

5. Holy Cross
2005-06: $2,716,725
2011-12: $3,900,385
Change: +43.5%

6. Bucknell
2005-06: $2,488,592
2011-12: $3,143,317
Change: +26.3%

7. Georgetown
2005-06: $1,666,297
2011-12: $1,686,269
Change: +1.1%

[RichH2]

Daunting reality for Hoyas. Viewing numbers really brings it home.

[CFBfan]

Daunting reality for Hoyas. Viewing numbers really brings it home.

and how pathetic...but for a $few million per year they could be right there and throw in a decent facility and they could be "a top tier". very sad.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It's amazing how much money Fordham pours into FCS football. No wonder their hoops program is dreadful....xsmiley_wix

[RichH2]

More , ineffective HC for Rams than money spent. New staff last yr, seems much better. IMO they have a real shot at playoffs this yr.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Appears Lafayette will indeed be without last years PL ROY. Tavani has recruited some real "winners" lately...

[Go...gate]

I completely agree. Stepping up is not playing FBS teams. Stepping up is going on the road to Wofford or Montana. I don't believe Colgate should be lauded for taking a paycheck to go play Air Force. Hopefully ESPN cracks a funny toothpaste joke when the Falcons hang half a hundred....

Respectfully, that seems like an eyes-closed denial of reality. Colgate has done both and the bump out of facing Syracuse, Buffalo or AFA should be much greater than playing on the road at Wofford, Furman or Montana. The FBS teams are generally stronger, most of the time much stronger.

[LUHawker]

Respectfully, that seems like an eyes-closed denial of reality. Colgate has done both and the bump out of facing Syracuse, Buffalo or AFA should be much greater than playing on the road at Wofford, Furman or Montana. The FBS teams are generally stronger, most of the time much stronger.

I think Owl's point is that stepping up to competition that an FCS team will almost certainly lose to is not really stepping up. Yes, the competition is stiffer, but it doesn't really prove anything. Stepping up to difficult competition where your team tests itself against premier teams in the division is more telling. I think that is his point, and frankly, I think he's right about that. That isn't to say that a game against an FBS team doesn't have worth, it just doesn't tell us that much about the FCS team.

[centraljerseycat]

Looking forward to seeing Nova play at Fordham week 2. Will there be temporary stands put up on the other side of the field this year?

Does Coffey Field feel more like a football field or a baseball field with a football game being played in the outfield?

[Pard4Life]

Looking forward to seeing Nova play at Fordham week 2. Will there be temporary stands put up on the other side of the field this year?

Does Coffey Field feel more like a football field or a baseball field with a football game being played in the outfield?

It's a fine venue to watch a game, you see the baseball field but you are not really aware of it... just make sure to buy your tickets plenty ahead of time, because Fordham cannot manage their ticket booths properly... only two people selling and a huge line.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think Owl's point is that stepping up to competition that an FCS team will almost certainly lose to is not really stepping up. Yes, the competition is stiffer, but it doesn't really prove anything. Stepping up to difficult competition where your team tests itself against premier teams in the division is more telling. I think that is his point, and frankly, I think he's right about that. That isn't to say that a game against an FBS team doesn't have worth, it just doesn't tell us that much about the FCS team.

Which is one of many critical reasons why 90% of FCS teams do it. It's risk-free, it obfuscates the strength of your team, and magically gives you "schedule strength" you didn't earn.

Lehigh plays New Hampshire, and they're tied to the FCS performance of the Wildcats for the whole season. If Lehigh wins but UNH goes 2-9 Lehigh is now chastised for not "scheduling correctly" and one league loss has them sitting at home. In contrast, Lehigh plays Army, the result is forgotten for the entire season, unless they win, in which case they're now a shoo-in for an at-large bid no matter how pathetic Army is.

[Green26]

Montana may take that phone call, but Wofford sure isn't. They were quite happy scheduling Chuck South and Lincoln (D-II) as home cupcakes last season. When you have two OOC games and one is already slotted for an FBS game, how many vacancies from the Wofford and Montana perspective are left? Especially since games vs. Lehigh and St. Francis "count" the same, in the eyes of the committee?

Montana would definitely take the call, at least under the prior AD, Jim O'Day. While Montana often schedules a D-II at home (for financial, experience for younger players, and availability reasons), it looks for good and interesting games, including both big name home and homes (App St this year) and one-off games. In the past, Montana has had home and homes with Hofstra, Maine, Sam Houston St. Montana often has a schedule opening (there are a limited number of FCS schools in the West and Dakotas), and needs to look hard for a game. Thus, Montana is willing to pay for the travel costs plus a modest amount for one game in Missoula. Albany is an example. While the fee reduces the net revenue, compared to a more regional or D-II game which involves only bus travel or lower charter cost, the game is usually more exciting for the fan base and avoids the complaining from the fan base about a D-II game. Having sellouts at 25,500, and charging $35 or so per ticket and $55 for big games, allows for paying a travel fee and still making good net revenue.


A number of years ago, Montana considered a game with Dartmouth. I was involved in trying to set it up, and made good progress, but ultimately Dartmouth decided it didn't want to back out of a game against UNH (even tho UNH almost backed out of the game the prior year). At least under in the prior AD, Montana would have considered a home and home with an Ivy. Part of the reasoning was that it was good to expose the team and fan base to an Ivy school, whether Dartmouth, Harvard or whatever. I believe a Patriot league team would be treated similarly. Perhaps not the pizazz of Harvard (boo Harvard), but still interesting to Montana and many of its fan base.

[Go Green]

A number of years ago, Montana considered a game with Dartmouth. I was involved in trying to set it up, and made good progress, but ultimately Dartmouth decided it didn't want to back out of a game against UNH (even tho UNH almost backed out of the game the prior year). At least under in the prior AD, Montana would have considered a home and home with an Ivy. Part of the reasoning was that it was good to expose the team and fan base to an Ivy school, whether Dartmouth, Harvard or whatever. I believe a Patriot league team would be treated similarly. Perhaps not the pizazz of Harvard (boo Harvard), but still interesting to Montana and many of its fan base.

While it's generally correct that Coach Teevens has tried hard to get Dartmouth to schedule games outside of the Northeast since his return, I'd be very surprised to hear that he was considering a game against Montana. For most of the 2000s, we were locked in 10 (or 15) year contracts for series with UNH, Holy Cross, and Colgate. For most of those years, all three teams were very competitive. Since we were weak, we lost most of them.

We've since "downgraded" the schedule and have played games against from the PFL (hence, the traveling) and NEC. Although we've still lost some of them (for whatever reason, Sacred Heart has our number), we *have* been doing better in conference play.

Now, if by "a number of years ago," you mean the early to mid 1990s, then I believe you. We were the league power then and were happy to go up against UNH or whoever. I can definitely see us talking to Montana in that era. Rumor had it that we were talking with Stanford for a game, but we thought the better of it and backed out (Cornell took our spot and lost something like 56-7).

If we do return to our rightful historical spot as Ivy power, I would not be surprised for us to resume an "anyone, anyplace, anytime" approach to scheduling. xthumbsupx

Until then, I'm content with the PFL and NEC. The 2000s were very ugly for us...