Lehigh media guide

[AmsterBison]

Looking at verifying FCS all-time football scores and ran into problems with Lehigh

In 1886, Lehigh's media guide says they played Lafayette twice, losing once (0-12) and tying once (0-0). Lafayette's media guide says that Lehigh lost twice (0-12 and 0-4). Any clue which is right?

In 1895, Lehigh doesn't show that they played Brown, but Brown's media guide says they did. Brown says they won 22-4.

Moreover, I don't think that the season-by-season totals add up to 662 wins... 660 is all I can find.

Nowhere near as bad as Penn's media guide though - they misplaced 30 losses.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Looking at verifying FCS all-time football scores and ran into problems with Lehigh

In 1886, Lehigh's media guide says they played Lafayette twice, losing once (0-12) and tying once (0-0). Lafayette's media guide says that Lehigh lost twice (0-12 and 0-4). Any clue which is right?

In 1895, Lehigh doesn't show that they played Brown, but Brown's media guide says they did. Brown says they won 22-4.

Moreover, I don't think that the season-by-season totals add up to 662 wins... 660 is all I can find.

Nowhere near as bad as Penn's media guide though - they misplaced 30 losses.

I think anytime you go this far back there's bound to be discrepancies.

[HailSzczur]

An excerpt from the Villanova Fordham preview on http://www.vuhoops.com

If you believe Villanova, the teams have met 18 times total, but Fordham has records of 26 meetings, both schools agree that Villanova leads the series by a large margin, with the Rams reporting that Villanova owns a 19-3-4 record against them.

No one seems to have kept good records back then.

[Pard4Life]

Looking at verifying FCS all-time football scores and ran into problems with Lehigh

In 1886, Lehigh's media guide says they played Lafayette twice, losing once (0-12) and tying once (0-0). Lafayette's media guide says that Lehigh lost twice (0-12 and 0-4). Any clue which is right?

In 1895, Lehigh doesn't show that they played Brown, but Brown's media guide says they did. Brown says they won 22-4.

Moreover, I don't think that the season-by-season totals add up to 662 wins... 660 is all I can find.

Nowhere near as bad as Penn's media guide though - they misplaced 30 losses.

Yes... Lafayette is correct, since Lafayette was winning the game 4-0 around halftime and Lehigh walked off the field to protest the refereeing. They forefitted the game.

Ah, so you've found it! Yes there are errors in Lehigh's official record and I thought about altering LFN awhile ago, but why help them out and make him look like a hero to Lehigh Athletic Communications? I know the exact spot of the other mistake you do not cite.

[gumby013]

Yes... Lafayette is correct, since Lafayette was winning the game 4-0 around halftime and Lehigh walked off the field to protest the refereeing. They forefitted the game.

Ah, so you've found it! Yes there are errors in Lehigh's official record and I thought about altering LFN awhile ago, but why help them out and make him look like a hero to Lehigh Athletic Communications? I know the exact spot of the other mistake you do not cite.

Big Sky refs?

[Pard4Life]

Big Sky refs?

Lions-Steelers 1998 refs...

[AmsterBison]

Yes... Lafayette is correct, since Lafayette was winning the game 4-0 around halftime and Lehigh walked off the field to protest the refereeing. They forefitted the game.


That's awesome! I was hoping it was something like that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes... Lafayette is correct, since Lafayette was winning the game 4-0 around halftime and Lehigh walked off the field to protest the refereeing. They forefitted the game.

Yes, the one where the ref was cheering openly for Lafayette, the play was blown dead and the Lafayette guy picked up the ball and scored a touchdown. There's a reason why it was 0-0 on the Lehigh side, and why it's different in both record books.

[heath]

It's nice to look up history.They're mistakes everywhere, because stats,records, etc were always HOMERED.It still amazes my on how many passionate fans live and die by that crap.FWIW, If you historians believe the Spaldings Football guide,where Lafayette played teams like Muhlenberg,Albany,Rutgers Lehigh etc and were co-champs, now that's funny.xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx Word to wise,live in the present,and take care of business.xthumbsupx Maybe we can get a few Ivy posters to let you know that Princeton,Yale,Harvard,Penn,Cornell, and even Dartmouth have titles.xbowx

[RichH2]

True enuf heath. Altho archives are fun, much more important for PL to focus on the present to build for the future of the PL I do not want PL to follow IL into almost total irrelevance in college football.

[AmsterBison]

It's nice to look up history.They're mistakes everywhere, because stats,records, etc were always HOMERED.It still amazes my on how many passionate fans live and die by that crap.FWIW, If you historians believe the Spaldings Football guide,where Lafayette played teams like Muhlenberg,Albany,Rutgers Lehigh etc and were co-champs, now that's funny.xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx Word to wise,live in the present,and take care of business.xthumbsupx Maybe we can get a few Ivy posters to let you know that Princeton,Yale,Harvard,Penn,Cornell, and even Dartmouth have titles.xbowx

There are mistakes almost everywhere in media guides but you can compare one team's records to another's and weed out mistakes that way. For example, NDSU and Montana State used to differ quite a bit in that series record but managed to get it straightened out. In this deal involving the 1886 game, maybe Lehigh and Lafayette should agree to disagree.

[carney2]

And now you know why I have to keep such a close watch on the Lehigh honors grad who mows my lawn.

[Pard4Life]

Yes, the one where the ref was cheering openly for Lafayette, the play was blown dead and the Lafayette guy picked up the ball and scored a touchdown. There's a reason why it was 0-0 on the Lehigh side, and why it's different in both record books.

No... Lehigh walked off the field and we picked up the ball and scored... which counted, but Lehigh refused to get back on the field. The referee was not cheering openly for Lafayette... he was making favorable LC calls that Lehigh did not like.

[Pard4Life]

True enuf heath. Altho archives are fun, much more important for PL to focus on the present to build for the future of the PL I do not want PL to follow IL into almost total irrelevance in college football.

Total irrelevance? They recieve more press in the NY Times than we ever will aside from box scores. And a TV deal with YES, NBC Sports. I wish we were irrelevant.

[Pard4Life]

It's nice to look up history.They're mistakes everywhere, because stats,records, etc were always HOMERED.It still amazes my on how many passionate fans live and die by that crap.FWIW, If you historians believe the Spaldings Football guide,where Lafayette played teams like Muhlenberg,Albany,Rutgers Lehigh etc and were co-champs, now that's funny.xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx Word to wise,live in the present,and take care of business.xthumbsupx Maybe we can get a few Ivy posters to let you know that Princeton,Yale,Harvard,Penn,Cornell, and even Dartmouth have titles.xbowx

I don't even think Albany existed. Are you referring to our national championships? Yes, they are legit. You are forgetting to mention Pittsburgh, W&J, and Penn. The landscape of eastern football was very different.

[RichH2]

Oh well maybe you guys are right about 4-0 game. Y'all need something to boast about since you cant beat us now,

[Pard4Life]

Oh well maybe you guys are right about 4-0 game. Y'all need something to boast about since you cant beat us now,

We can... ineptitude is another matter.

[Franks Tanks]

It's nice to look up history.They're mistakes everywhere, because stats,records, etc were always HOMERED.It still amazes my on how many passionate fans live and die by that crap.FWIW, If you historians believe the Spaldings Football guide,where Lafayette played teams like Muhlenberg,Albany,Rutgers Lehigh etc and were co-champs, now that's funny.xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx Word to wise,live in the present,and take care of business.xthumbsupx Maybe we can get a few Ivy posters to let you know that Princeton,Yale,Harvard,Penn,Cornell, and even Dartmouth have titles.xbowx

Ya, Lafayette didn't play Florida State or Miami that year. The truth is there were very few teams playing football at the time. Washington & Jefferson was a power. The Ivies were the best teams in the land. Those titles are legitimate, or legitimate as any at the time, even though the names don't sound impressive right now.

[RichH2]

Total irrelevance? They recieve more press in the NY Times than we ever will aside from box scores. And a TV deal with YES, NBC Sports. I wish we were irrelevant.

NY Times defines relevance for us or for Natl FCS. Nope Nice coverage for Ivy alums .Tv nice for them also. Relevance for me is where do we fit in Natl FCS picture for natl championship.

[PAllen]

No... Lehigh walked off the field and we picked up the ball and scored... which counted, but Lehigh refused to get back on the field. The referee was not cheering openly for Lafayette... he was making favorable LC calls that Lehigh did not like.

Typed straight from the hands of an eye witness.

[heath]

Ya, Lafayette didn't play Florida State or Miami that year. The truth is there were very few teams playing football at the time. Washington & Jefferson was a power. The Ivies were the best teams in the land. Those titles are legitimate, or legitimate as any at the time, even though the names don't sound impressive right now.

To make you guys feel better,.....In 1926 Parke Davis published in the Spalding's football guide that in his opinion Lafayette was co-champs.Talk about political corruption today and voter fraud, it gets better.........Not only did Davis play at Lafayette,he coached and was AD also. When the Dickinson System(the most well know and respected poll) had Lafayette ranked 5th,the long time spotted puss would step in and make his own declarationxthumbsdownx.......kinda reminds me of a few poster now that have a hard time dealing with anything but a title .Parke Davis should have been ashamed.xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Parke Davis was also the head coach of the 1896 Lafayette team. He had a lot to do with declaring all of the earliest "national champions" up until the 1930s, I believe.

[RichH2]

xconfusedxNeat factoid. Nice to see Pard ethics have marginally improved since then.:D

[Pard4Life]

You are all grossly exaggerating the issue. Parke Davis was at Lafayette for only a few years, from 1895 to 1899 I believe. He was not an alum and hardly a homer. In fact, Parke Davis is one of the most respected and authoritative figures in all of early college football. He was a friend of Walter Camp and was on the rules committee.

The Parke Davis poll was the first major effort to declare national champions... in fact, it is recognized as one of the entities granting college football championships. Lafayette's run from 1921-26 was the most dominant in college football... the NY Times declared them '5-year' champions for having the best record of the period, even better than Alabama. Lafayette was up for consideration for the 1922 Rose Bowl and a 'post-season' game against Alabama in Philadelphia for the 150-year celebration, but of course, we took ourselves out of the running for both. And, our two coaches during that period ended up in the Hall-of-Fame, one of which is in the NFL HOF.

Say what you want, but the 1926 championship was a strong team (we had the nation's leading scorer), kind of like Boise State of the day if you please.

[DFW HOYA]

A considerable grain of salt should be applied to any Parke Davis national titles. Why? They were all retroactive. He made his selections in 1933, a year before his death.

"He used no special formula," said Sports Illustrated. "He simply looked at the schedules and the results and chose his teams."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parke_H._Davis#.22Set_all_the_records_straight.22

[AmsterBison]

Quandary: Lehigh says they beat Cornell on 11/29/1894 6-4, Cornell says they beat Lehigh on 11/29/1894 10-6.

Found a Cornell win against Syracuse in 1893 in their media guide so I'll leave it as a Lehigh win.

Er, on second thought, no. Looks like Cornell gets the win. Lehigh sure did a lot of marching off the field in protest of unfair officiating.

http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/cdm4/bw2_viewer.php?DMTHUMB=&ptr=15481&CISOPTR=15477&search=football_0_18940101-18951231

^ that site is awesome, btw.

[Franks Tanks]

You are all grossly exaggerating the issue. Parke Davis was at Lafayette for only a few years, from 1895 to 1899 I believe. He was not an alum and hardly a homer. In fact, Parke Davis is one of the most respected and authoritative figures in all of early college football. He was a friend of Walter Camp and was on the rules committee.

The Parke Davis poll was the first major effort to declare national champions... in fact, it is recognized as one of the entities granting college football championships. Lafayette's run from 1921-26 was the most dominant in college football... the NY Times declared them '5-year' champions for having the best record of the period, even better than Alabama. Lafayette was up for consideration for the 1922 Rose Bowl and a 'post-season' game against Alabama in Philadelphia for the 150-year celebration, but of course, we took ourselves out of the running for both. And, our two coaches during that period ended up in the Hall-of-Fame, one of which is in the NFL HOF.

Say what you want, but the 1926 championship was a strong team (we had the nation's leading scorer), kind of like Boise State of the day if you please.

The 86 and 21 teams are also noted as being champs by at least one other poll/formula besides Davis. The 26 team was only crowned by Davis, and that was a very muddled year.

Here is the list BTW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Di vision_I_FBS

[Lehigh'98]

The 86 and 21 teams are also noted as being champs by at least one other poll/formula besides Davis. The 26 team was only crowned by Davis, and that was a very muddled year.

Here is the list BTW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Di vision_I_FBS

Right up until the forward pass was legalized in 1906(??), the Ivies dominated. Not sure how many schools had a program back then though.

[Franks Tanks]

Right up until the forward pass was legalized in 1906(??), the Ivies dominated. Not sure how many schools had a program back then though.

I've tried to find a list of schools with teams back then, but have failed. From what I can tell in addition to the current Ivy league schools you have Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Muhelenberg, Rutgers (of course), PSU, Pitt, Army, Navy in the Northeast. Certainly not an all inclusive list.

In the midwest you had Michigan, Purdue, Illinois, Minnesota etc.

Out West I believe Stanford, and USC etc. were playing football.

I assume Alabama, Ga Tech, Georgia Tennessee and others were at it as well.

I have found no reliable data, but my guess would be roughly 50-60 teams in existance around 1900. If anyone has additional info I would love to see it.

[UAalum72]

Obviously incomplete because most Ivies aren't listed, but in 1906 there were 39 original members of the Intercollegiate Athletic Association of the US (which became the NCAA in 1910).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2006/Membership+Information/founding%2Bmembers%2Bhold%2Btrue%2Bto%2Bncaa%2Bedu cational%2Bmission.
(http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2006/Membership+Information/founding%2Bmembers%2Bhold%2Btrue%2Bto%2Bncaa%2Bedu cational%2Bmission.html)
Allegheny College
Amherst College
Bucknell University
Colgate University
University of Colorado, Boulder
Dartmouth College
Denison University
Dickinson College
Franklin & Marshall College
George Washington University
Grove City College
Haverford College
Lehigh University
Miami University (Ohio)
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
University of Missouri, Columbia
University of Nebraska, Lincoln
New York University
Niagara University
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Oberlin College
Ohio Wesleyan University
University of Pennsylvania
University of Pittsburgh
University of Rochester
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, New Brunswick
Seton Hall University
Swarthmore College
Syracuse University
Tufts University
Union College (New York)
U.S. Military Academy
Vanderbilt University
Washington and Jefferson College
Wesleyan University (Connecticut)
Westminster College (Pennsylvania)
Williams College
Wittenberg University
College of Wooster

[dgtw]

An excerpt from the Villanova Fordham preview on http://www.vuhoops.com


No one seems to have kept good records back then.

A lot of the early teams were comparable to a club team today in terms of organization. There was no governing body and little, if any, media coverage.

Alabama's first team was in 1892. A lot of their early gmes were against high school teams and local "athletic clubs", whatever that means.

[heath]

I've tried to find a list of schools with teams back then, but have failed. From what I can tell in addition to the current Ivy league schools you have Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Muhelenberg, Rutgers (of course), PSU, Pitt, Army, Navy in the Northeast. Certainly not an all inclusive list.

In the midwest you had Michigan, Purdue, Illinois, Minnesota etc.

Out West I believe Stanford, and USC etc. were playing football.

I assume Alabama, Ga Tech, Georgia Tennessee and others were at it as well.

I have found no reliable data, but my guess would be roughly 50-60 teams in existance around 1900. If anyone has additional info I would love to see it.
Don't forget the all important Susquehanna game in 1926 to pad the schedule before the Lehigh game. Lafayette played a weak NE schedule which catered to the NY Times loving their local team.............get over it. Good luck this year,but don't get carried away pursuing that 4th National Titlexlolx

[DFW HOYA]

Alabama's first team was in 1892. A lot of their early games were against high school teams and local "athletic clubs", whatever that means.

Many athletic club lineups were of semi-pros or former college players with expired eligibility. Other clubs were, well, sketchy.

One of the few athletic clubs that still maintains a range of varsity sports is the New York Athletic Club (NYAC). Its track teams are still prominent in competitive meets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Athletic_Club#Teams

[Franks Tanks]

Don't forget the all important Susquehanna game in 1926 to pad the schedule before the Lehigh game. Lafayette played a weak NE schedule which catered to the NY Times loving their local team.............get over it. Good luck this year,but don't get carried away pursuing that 4th National Titlexlolx

Not that it matters, but 1926 was by far the weakest case for Lafayette and their "national championship" claims. There were 5 teams crowned national champs in 1926, and there seemed to be little consensus. BTW i'm glad you know who was good and who wasn't in 1926. Susquehana may not be any good in 2013, but you really have no idea how they compared to say Penn State or Pitt way back then.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't want to judge too harshly, but to retroactively give a national championship to a team you yourself coached? Something doesn't seem right about that.

[heath]

Not that it matters, but 1926 was by far the weakest case for Lafayette and their "national championship" claims. There were 5 teams crowned national champs in 1926, and there seemed to be little consensus. BTW i'm glad you know who was good and who wasn't in 1926. Susquehana may not be any good in 2013, but you really have no idea how they compared to say Penn State or Pitt way back then.
I have no idea or you? For your history knowledge about your team.....,Susquehanna was bad back then.Instead of playing Dickinson,maybe they should have played Army or Navy to boost that weak schedule. Doesn't seem to matter if it's 1926 or 2013, PL school have never played a tough schedule but like to lay claim to high rankings they do not deserve.xbowx

[Franks Tanks]

I have no idea or you? For your history knowledge about your team.....,Susquehanna was bad back then.Instead of playing Dickinson,maybe they should have played Army or Navy to boost that weak schedule. Doesn't seem to matter if it's 1926 or 2013, PL school have never played a tough schedule but like to lay claim to high rankings they do not deserve.xbowx

I never claimed to know. Who the eff cares? Bottom line is that someone who knew their stuff at the time gave their opinion. You don't have to accept it. I can give a crap if you do or don't.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't want to judge too harshly, but to retroactively give a national championship to a team you yourself coached? Something doesn't seem right about that.

Perhaps there was bias, but I would thank many of the early rating systems came with a lot of that.

[RichH2]

Rather interesting start to thread devolving quickly to snarky posts on on games 100 yrs ago. Must be summer.xrolleyesx

I'm going to take an nap, somebody wake me if we start talking about this coming season. Thanks.xthumbsupx

[ngineer]

Obviously incomplete because most Ivies aren't listed, but in 1906 there were 39 original members of the Intercollegiate Athletic Association of the US (which became the NCAA in 1910).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2006/Membership+Information/founding%2Bmembers%2Bhold%2Btrue%2Bto%2Bncaa%2Bedu cational%2Bmission.
(http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2006/Membership+Information/founding%2Bmembers%2Bhold%2Btrue%2Bto%2Bncaa%2Bedu cational%2Bmission.html)
Allegheny College
Amherst College
Bucknell University
Colgate University
University of Colorado, Boulder
Dartmouth College
Denison University
Dickinson College
Franklin & Marshall College
George Washington University
Grove City College
Haverford College
Lehigh University
Miami University (Ohio)
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
University of Missouri, Columbia
University of Nebraska, Lincoln
New York University
Niagara University
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Oberlin College
Ohio Wesleyan University
University of Pennsylvania
University of Pittsburgh
University of Rochester
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, New Brunswick
Seton Hall University
Swarthmore College
Syracuse University
Tufts University
Union College (New York)
U.S. Military Academy
Vanderbilt University
Washington and Jefferson College
Wesleyan University (Connecticut)
Westminster College (Pennsylvania)
Williams College
Wittenberg University
College of Wooster

Hmmmm. A small recognized power at the time was Carlisle Indian School who had a fairly decent running back, defensive back, punter, punt and kickoff returner...