Why Can't FCS Conferences Move As a Unit to FBS?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I explain it here, using, as a practical example: the 2010 CAA football conference.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/06/why-cant-fcs-conferences-move-as-unit.html

[darell1976]

I explain it here, using, as a practical example: the 2010 CAA football conference.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/06/why-cant-fcs-conferences-move-as-unit.html


(When they say "previously met the definition", it doesn't mean that the Big West could suddenly decide, since they sponsored FBS football in 1998, they could pull in FBS schools and make a conference. In 20.02.6.2, it's specified that a conference is still considered an "FBS conference" for two years after no longer qualifying for that honor.)

So technically the Big Sky Conference (or at least 8 of them) could move into the WAC?

[ccd494]

You certainly used a lot of words instead of simply saying "Because the NCAA is a cartel."

[DoWe]

Trolling, I mean trawling for website visitors. Sad.

[heath]

Really Chuck? Take the summer off,spend time with the family,come back in the Fall, and start rumors then. I know you probably get paid based upon hits or people reading this crap,BUT PLEASE.......BTW stick to your countdown to kickoff, you might actually become familiar with your own Lehigh players.xthumbsupx

[CrazyCat]

I really don't see what you guys are bitching about. It was a good informative read.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Aaaaaand again, FBS classification from FCS just means your commercial advertising is sometimes national (even if it's 8 pm on Tuesday) rather than local/regional.

The former-teacher-colleges-turned Universities are a pain to every "Major" university in every state as their enrollment grows and they acquire more advanced degree programs. The Major U's and their alumni want to maintain the prestige they enjoyed in the 20th century and Big Media don't want to be bothered explaining why B1G Northwestern and Indiana would get their asses kicked by Sun Belt Arkansas State. It's easier for everyone to think Notre Dame, Michigan, and USC are in the Top 5.

It's the same principle the Ivy's and SWAC schools use. Why get your ass kicked by Former-teacher-college-directional U when you're Grambling, Harvard, or Yale? Just play each other and watch Sagarin's flawed SoS variable yield a high rating for you.

[bluehenbillk]

Here's why they couldn't move to FBS....

Villanova, W&M, UNH, Richmond, Maine, URI & Towson collectively are NOT and chances are never will be FBS schools, nor do at least 5 of them have the slightest interest in going FBS. End of story. End of thread, move along, nothing to see here.

[andy7171]

Here's why they couldn't move to FBS....

Villanova, W&M, UNH, Richmond, Maine, URI & Towson collectively are NOT and chances are never will be FBS schools, nor do at least 5 of them have the slightest interest in going FBS. End of story. End of thread, move along, nothing to see here.

But make no mistake, Towson will go, or at least try, to go where ever Delaware and JMU go. No matter how stupid that decision would be.

[PaladinFan]

Here's why they couldn't move to FBS....

Villanova, W&M, UNH, Richmond, Maine, URI & Towson collectively are NOT and chances are never will be FBS schools, nor do at least 5 of them have the slightest interest in going FBS. End of story. End of thread, move along, nothing to see here.

That's the way I see it. I mean, you could. But why?

[UNH Fanboi]

Here's why they couldn't move to FBS....

Villanova, W&M, UNH, Richmond, Maine, URI & Towson collectively are NOT and chances are never will be FBS schools, nor do at least 5 of them have the slightest interest in going FBS. End of story. End of thread, move along, nothing to see here.

That's not the end of the story because even if those schools were ready, willing and able to move up individually, the CAA is not eligible to be an FBS conference under current rules.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's why they couldn't move to FBS....

Villanova, W&M, UNH, Richmond, Maine, URI & Towson collectively are NOT and chances are never will be FBS schools, nor do at least 5 of them have the slightest interest in going FBS. End of story. End of thread, move along, nothing to see here.

You're right about five of those. This is an academic point, but, if the proposed layout of an infant FBS conference was:

Delaware
JMU
UMass
Georgia State
App State
Georgia Southern
Old Dominion

Would Villanova really say no?

[bluehenbillk]

You're right about five of those. This is an academic point, but, if the proposed layout of an infant FBS conference was:

Delaware
JMU
UMass
Georgia State
App State
Georgia Southern
Old Dominion

Would Villanova really say no?

Did you see Villanova stammer & trip all over themselves in attempting to make a decision on going FBS to play Big East Football just two years ago? They bleed losing money right now, there's next-to-zero chance they'd go FBS to play with the collection of names you have listed.

[Tribal]

Unlike the other CAA schools mentioned, W&M played "FBS" football until about 30 years ago. We like the CAA and have no plan to drain our budget by sending our volleyball team to El Paso, Monroe, and Florida. It doesn't make sense for US.

[ccd494]

You're right about five of those. This is an academic point, but, if the proposed layout of an infant FBS conference was:

Delaware
JMU
UMass
Georgia State
App State
Georgia Southern
Old Dominion

Would Villanova really say no?

And play their games where?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And play their games where?

PPL park in Chester.

[Bisonator]

It would be tough for any current conference to move up together, but what if this was allowed and say certain teams decide to start a new conference with the sole purpose of moving to FBS. Hypothetically say the UM, MSU, NDSU, UND, UNI, SDSU, USD and NAU decided to start a new conference in FCS. They could conceivably move up as a whole conference to FBS within 2 years?

[darell1976]

It would be tough for any current conference to move up together, but what if this was allowed and say certain teams decide to start a new conference with the sole purpose of moving to FBS. Hypothetically say the UM, MSU, NDSU, UND, UNI, SDSU, USD and NAU decided to start a new conference in FCS. They could conceivably move up as a whole conference to FBS within 2 years?

Your example sounds like a pretty damn good conference.

[ccd494]

PPL park in Chester.

No one has ever explained to me why the Union would agree to do that.

[bluehenbillk]

No one has ever explained to me why the Union would agree to do that.

Well that's an easy answer: The same reason why the gnomes in South Park steal people's underwear - Profit.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No one has ever explained to me why the Union would agree to do that.


Well that's an easy answer: The same reason why the gnomes in South Park steal people's underwear - Profit.

The easier answer is that the Philadelphia Union like to make money, and have this asset lying around available to make money, especially in the fall.

In fact, Villanova was prepared to go this way to join the Big East before "anonymous sources" shot down the idea publicly - "anonymous sources" that wouldn't have been present with these 8 teams.

[aztecjim]

1)Could any eight schools move to the WAC and then vote to change the name?
2)Could any eight schools move to an existing conference, then leave after two years to form a new conference? Similar to the Mountain West split from the WAC.

[MplsBison]

Aaaaaand again, FBS classification from FCS just means your commercial advertising is sometimes national (even if it's 8 pm on Tuesday) rather than local/regional.

The former-teacher-colleges-turned Universities are a pain to every "Major" university in every state as their enrollment grows and they acquire more advanced degree programs. The Major U's and their alumni want to maintain the prestige they enjoyed in the 20th century and Big Media don't want to be bothered explaining why B1G Northwestern and Indiana would get their asses kicked by Sun Belt Arkansas State. It's easier for everyone to think Notre Dame, Michigan, and USC are in the Top 5.

It's the same principle the Ivy's and SWAC schools use. Why get your ass kicked by Former-teacher-college-directional U when you're Grambling, Harvard, or Yale? Just play each other and watch Sagarin's flawed SoS variable yield a high rating for you.

Except for those of us that never were teacher's colleges and have already had those advanced degree offerings for some time. We actually have things like "endowments". Sure, I'm overstating NDSU's case a little bit there....but certainly not a school like Delaware! Show me any teacher's college that has a tenth of their 1billion+ endowment.

[MplsBison]

1)Could any eight schools move to the WAC and then vote to change the name?
2)Could any eight schools move to an existing conference, then leave after two years to form a new conference? Similar to the Mountain West split from the WAC.

Technically, I think the WAC could still invite eight FBS schools and then play as an FBS conference in 2014. They might need a waiver of some sort...perhaps because those eight schools would still be in transition for the 2014 season? Not 100% sure...but if they wanted to do that for some reason, I think they could make it work.

But that's only because I think the WAC has a two year grace period. So this year they won't play and that means they'd have to come back by 2014.


Now as I've said before in another thread, just because they're playing football doesn't mean they get any slice of the $500 million from the CFP media deal. Most likely they wouldn't get a cent of that until the next contract.

[ccd494]

The easier answer is that the Philadelphia Union like to make money, and have this asset lying around available to make money, especially in the fall.

In fact, Villanova was prepared to go this way to join the Big East before "anonymous sources" shot down the idea publicly - "anonymous sources" that wouldn't have been present with these 8 teams.

MLS regular season ends October 26 with a Union home game.

Did you see what TSU did to the Dynamo's field last year? That thing was unplayable after one game! I understand the profit motive, but turning your team into a running joke isn't worth it.

[GannonFan]

MLS regular season ends October 26 with a Union home game.

Did you see what TSU did to the Dynamo's field last year? That thing was unplayable after one game! I understand the profit motive, but turning your team into a running joke isn't worth it.

Certainly a big factor - would nova be willing to load up the back end of their schedule and play most of their home games later in the year? Or just limit the number of home games total per year (no way the Union would like 6-7 home games on their field) plus factor in the unpredictability of having playoff games as well. I understand that people think the Union would like to make money, but to what extent really.

And the other thing is, why would nova even need to try to rent PPL to play FBS football with the teams listed in this thread? I mean, they floated PPL as an idea when teams with much bigger draws were asking nova to invest and move up, and PPL was a dismal and weak answer to that at the time (and one of the big, last reasons why the Big East fell apart). If they were going to try to do it on the cheap back then, why would they spend all that money to rent a place to basically play the same teams they play now, just with more scholarships? They would definitely try gimick the capacity in Radnor and keep playing there. PPL in its current format sits 18k - when UD and nova played there two years ago, 9k seats in the stands was a realistic number (ignore the announced, it was like a Temple announced attendance, i.e. ficticious).

[dbackjon]

Except for those of us that never were teacher's colleges and have already had those advanced degree offerings for some time. We actually have things like "endowments". Sure, I'm overstating NDSU's case a little bit there....but certainly not a school like Delaware! Show me any teacher's college that has a tenth of their 1billion+ endowment.

NAU is close - closing in on 100 Million - far higher than most SunBelt schools, and not too far below NDSU's

[UAalum72]

It would be tough for any current conference to move up together, but what if this was allowed and say certain teams decide to start a new conference with the sole purpose of moving to FBS. Hypothetically say the UM, MSU, NDSU, UND, UNI, SDSU, USD and NAU decided to start a new conference in FCS. They could conceivably move up as a whole conference to FBS within 2 years?
No.

20.02.5.4 Continuity. A multisport conference shall establish continuity. To establish continuity, a multisport
conference must meet the requirements of Bylaw 20.02.5.1. In addition, the conference must meet the
requirements of Bylaws 20.02.5.2 and 20.02.5.3 for a period of eight consecutive years. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective
8/1/11)

20.02.5.1 requires a minimum of seven active Division I members (FBS requires eight).
20.02.5.2 and .3 refer to a minimum of twelve sports, six men and six women, with at least seven members in basketball and six members in the others, playing specified numbers of games in each sport.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D112.pdf

Also there's another bylaw that when a conference applies for NCAA membership, it goes to a vote of the members.

[bojeta]

NAU is close - closing in on 100 Million - far higher than most SunBelt schools, and not too far below NDSU's

Did you mean closing in on 900 million? Because he said "1 billion+" Last I checked, Cal Poly had roughly 175 million in their endowment. I know Davis has a campaign to hit 1 billion. Stanford has so much, they don't need to charge tuition if they choose.

[MplsBison]

NAU is close - closing in on 100 Million - far higher than most SunBelt schools, and not too far below NDSU's

That's pretty good. Good for NAU, I hope you continue growing.

It makes sense for your situation. Relatively large population state with basically just two major public schools in the state and then smaller public and private schools. No major private schools...does Grand Canyon count?

Makes sense that NAU would provide another outlet for a medium-large public school that isn't UA or ASU.


But most teacher's colleges don't enjoy that situation.

[MplsBison]

Did you mean closing in on 900 million? Because he said "1 billion+" Last I checked, Cal Poly had roughly 175 million in their endowment. I know Davis has a campaign to hit 1 billion. Stanford has so much, they don't need to charge tuition if they choose.

I said a tenth.

[dbackjon]

Did you mean closing in on 900 million? Because he said "1 billion+" Last I checked, Cal Poly had roughly 175 million in their endowment. I know Davis has a campaign to hit 1 billion. Stanford has so much, they don't need to charge tuition if they choose.

No - he said no former teachers college had 1/10 of Delaware's 1 Billion endownment - I just showed him that NAU was close to his 1/10 number.

[dbackjon]

That's pretty good. Good for NAU, I hope you continue growing.

It makes sense for your situation. Relatively large population state with basically just two major public schools in the state and then smaller public and private schools. No major private schools...does Grand Canyon count?

Makes sense that NAU would provide another outlet for a medium-large public school that isn't UA or ASU.


But most teacher's colleges don't enjoy that situation.


There are three Public Universities in Arizona- ASU, UA and NAU. With NAU having 25K students, it is a large university. GCU is private, a couple of smaller bible colleges. So NAU is somewhat Unique in that aspect - 6 million people and 3 Public Universities. NAU has a VH Research designation.

[MplsBison]

No - he said no former teachers college had 1/10 of Delaware's 1 Billion endownment - I just showed him that NAU was close to his 1/10 number.

I didn't proclaim that none did. I said show me...which you did.

[MplsBison]

There are three Public Universities in Arizona- ASU, UA and NAU. With NAU having 25K students, it is a large university. GCU is private, a couple of smaller bible colleges. So NAU is somewhat Unique in that aspect - 6 million people and 3 Public Universities. NAU has a VH Research designation.

Yes I would say very unique. Off the top of my head...Iowa comes to mind. And thusly UNI is in a similar bucket.

VHR must not be very meaningful... NAU's research expenditures were $28.8million in FY10 (latest NSF data) with about $15mil being federally sourced. That ranks them in the mid 200's of all institutions.

[GeauxLions94]

Unlike the other CAA schools mentioned, W&M played "FBS" football until about 30 years ago. We like the CAA and have no plan to drain our budget by sending our volleyball team to El Paso, Monroe, and Florida. It doesn't make sense for US.

Hey, don't knock Monroe until you've been there ... save yourself the trip and feel free to use the stuff we say when we knock Monroe xlolx

[darell1976]

BSC Commissioner Doug Fullerton on the FBS:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/268487/group/homepage/


Recently, a handful of FCS powers decided to make the move to the big-time Football Bowl Subdivision — moves that could producea domino effect within the smaller division. There is considerable risk in making such moves, Fullerton said.

According to league statistics, 19 schools moved from the FCS to the FBS from 1978 through 2010. The results haven’t been good. Among the 19 programs, the average winning percentage dropped from 55.7 percent in the FCS to 44.8 percent in the FBS.

Similarly, those teams had winning seasons 64.4 percent of the time in the FCS and 37.2 percent in the FBS.

Fullerton said teams in the top five FBS conferences have budgets that swamp the majority of FBS football-playing schools, making it difficult for the smaller programs to compete.

“Given the widening gap separating the top five conferences financially from the rest of FBS, whatever they (FCS programs moving up) are chasing is going to only become even more unattainable and more expensive in the future,” said Fullerton.

On another matter, Fullerton said he hopes other FBS conferences do not follow the recent Big Ten decision that will prohibit its teams from playing FCS programs.

That is of significant interest to UND, which would prefer scheduling regional Big Ten teams such as Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa.

“We don’t live off guarantee money,” said Fullerton. “However, it is important to the programs in the Big Sky. In recent years, we have been more and more successful on the field against those FBS programs. It would be a blow to all of FCS if all of the FBS conferences followed the lead of the Big Ten.”

[AmsterBison]

Just for the record, NDSU is not a former teachers college and the endowment is small because it would be inane to sit on a pile of money when the needs unmet by the state are so great. NDSU alumni have had to step forward to provide money for the most basic infrastructure (i.e. replace a leaky WWII quonset hut with a real building, move the College of Business out of 1903 Carnegie Library, etc.)

[catbob]

It would be tough for any current conference to move up together, but what if this was allowed and say certain teams decide to start a new conference with the sole purpose of moving to FBS. Hypothetically say the UM, MSU, NDSU, UND, UNI, SDSU, USD and NAU decided to start a new conference in FCS. They could conceivably move up as a whole conference to FBS within 2 years?

What is the point in this scenario though? Most of the move up crowd wants better competition, and by that they mean established FBS programs with name-brand power coming into town. If a bunch of FCS schools, no matter how prestigious at FCS they may be, form an FBS conference, what is the difference between that conference and a FCS version of that conference?

[DFW HOYA]

Hey, don't knock Monroe until you've been there ... save yourself the trip and feel free to use the stuff we say when we knock Monroe xlolx

As they say in Monroe: "It's not Ruston."

[The Eagle's Cliff]

What is the point in this scenario though? Most of the move up crowd wants better competition, and by that they mean established FBS programs with name-brand power coming into town. If a bunch of FCS schools, no matter how prestigious at FCS they may be, form an FBS conference, what is the difference between that conference and a FCS version of that conference?

The higher profile and the 22 extra scholarships make a difference in recruiting. The level of competition goes up automatically because the net level of talent and depth are higher.

I'm already impressed with the verbal commitments we're getting at Southern and we're over a year away from playing our first down of FBS football.

Saying "it's the same" or "it doesn't matter" is a statement of denial utilized by I-AA schools to boost morale.

No I-AA school has the history of success that GSU has and outside our little area, very few people have heard of us.

[Bisonator]

What is the point in this scenario though? Most of the move up crowd wants better competition, and by that they mean established FBS programs with name-brand power coming into town. If a bunch of FCS schools, no matter how prestigious at FCS they may be, form an FBS conference, what is the difference between that conference and a FCS version of that conference?

The point was trying to get around an FBS conference invite. Those schools are outliers for any current FBS conference making an invite unlikely.

[MplsBison]

The point was trying to get around an FBS conference invite. Those schools are outliers for any current FBS conference making an invite unlikely.

If a single FCS team can't decide to move itself up into FBS independent status, what makes you think the NCAA would consider allowing a group of FCS schools that approached it to create an entirely new FCS conference?

I would think they'd have a better chance of trying to resurrect the WAC football brand, assuming it would be mainly west region teams moving up. if we're talkinga bout the new hypothetical East Coast FBS conference consisting of new move-ups and FCS schools, fat chance.


Moreover, any new FBS conference that doesn't mostly consist of teams already in the existing ten conferences is going to be locked out of the $500 million per year generated by the new playoff media deal.

The conference can always try to create the best media deal for itself that it can, but that's not going to be much more than the media deals conferences like the Sun Belt and MAC have now (which probably only care about maximizing exposure as opposed to generating revenue).

[Bisonator]

There's nothing stopping a group of schools from forming their own conference as far as I know. We did it with the Great West 10 years ago.

As far as the FCS to FBS move, I knew it wasn't going to happen because it can't happen. It was a hypothetical to get around the invite BS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There's nothing stopping a group of schools from forming their own conference as far as I know. We did it with the Great West 10 years ago.

As far as the FCS to FBS move, I knew it wasn't going to happen because it can't happen. It was a hypothetical to get around the invite BS.

Going back to the original article, there is nothing stopping a group of schools from forming their own conference. In order to be an FBS conference, though, the rules state you need to have 1) X schools that are already FBS or 2) you're a grandfathered conference that sponsored FBS in the past, you've dropped and you're in the "grace period".

[major095]

so if the wac is dead/dying, could a group of schools "buy" the conference and assume it's identity, allowing it's members to move to fbs?

[seantaylor]

The higher profile and the 22 extra scholarships make a difference in recruiting. The level of competition goes up automatically because the net level of talent and depth are higher.

I'm already impressed with the verbal commitments we're getting at Southern and we're over a year away from playing our first down of FBS football.

Saying "it's the same" or "it doesn't matter" is a statement of denial utilized by I-AA schools to boost morale.

No I-AA school has the history of success that GSU has and outside our little area, very few people have heard of us.

Agree with you. I am off the wagon, though.

[mmiller_34]

Going back to the original article, there is nothing stopping a group of schools from forming their own conference. In order to be an FBS conference, though, the rules state you need to have 1) X schools that are already FBS or 2) you're a grandfathered conference that sponsored FBS in the past, you've dropped and you're in the "grace period".

Didn't the MVC sponsor major college football way back when? Or is the cut off when D1A and D1AA were created?

[clenz]

1984 was under last time...been too long to restart it

quando omni flunkus moritati

[darell1976]

1984 was under last time...been too long to restart it

quando omni flunkus moritati

UNI can join the Dakota 4 and we can re-take the WAC (with Idaho and/or NMSU since they are already FBS and needed to do so).:D

[clenz]

No

quando omni flunkus moritati

[mmiller_34]

No

Love that.

[BisonFan02]

No

quando omni flunkus moritati

This

[MplsBison]

There's nothing stopping a group of schools from forming their own conference as far as I know. We did it with the Great West 10 years ago.

As far as the FCS to FBS move, I knew it wasn't going to happen because it can't happen. It was a hypothetical to get around the invite BS.

That was a typo. I meant to say: "what makes you think the NCAA would consider allowing a group of FCS schools that approached it to create an entirely new FBS conference?"

It should've been obvious what I was saying, given the context of this thread and your previous comments. Come on..

[MplsBison]

so if the wac is dead/dying, could a group of schools "buy" the conference and assume it's identity, allowing it's members to move to fbs?

The only thing along these lines that might be able to happen, AFAIK, would be for the existing WAC conference to decide that it will sponsor football again and invite 8 or more FCS teams to move up. And that would basically have to happen by the 2014 season.

That's assuming the NCAA would allow it to happen, which I suppose it would.

Then the bowl organization (what is the legal name of this entity now?? Is it still BCS?) would just rewrite their rules so as not to include every "FBS conference" but rather the specific set of 10 conferences that brokered the deal which will be underway starting in 2014. The new WAC football conf would be left out of the $500 million per year deal.

[Bisonator]

That was a typo. I meant to say: "what makes you think the NCAA would consider allowing a group of FCS schools that approached it to create an entirely new FBS conference?"

It should've been obvious what I was saying, given the context of this thread and your previous comments. Come on..

xrotatehx

xgiveadamnx

[MplsBison]

You posted an incorrect scenario in the thread, I corrected you.

Won't be the last time, I'm sure.