UR Professor hates college FB......

[kdinva]

http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/college/richmond/professor-proposes-end-to-ur-football/article_4f31dffe-2f60-50f2-9c39-1c54b499f315.html

Who in the hell made this guy faculty rep to the AD? Hope he doesn't mind having his residence rolled.....

[Nova09]

Not surprising that from time to time a professor spews off on such things, but I'm shocked the faculty athletics rep would take such a stance.

[CID1990]

LOL don't mess with football!

Think we need more diversity in the form of agriculture students from Kathmandu? No problem.

Gender studies? Of course!

What if Harry Potter was Real? Sign us up!

We should drop down to DIII in football - GET A ROPE!

The moral of this story is when you cultivate Moonbats, you get Moonbatty behavior. We all reap what we sow.

[Apphole]

http://www2.wataugademocrat.com/attachments/2012/04/Price_for_web_.jpg

[DFW HOYA]

Richmond apparently needs to dump the political science department, too. Clearly, it can't compete with Virginia or other large institutions and in a few years, the ambition of political science students will be beyond UR's means.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If concussion lawsuits related to football make liability policies too expensive for a growing number of schools, “this big-team sport and significant financial commitment could conceivably become extinct within the next two to three decades,” Mayes wrote. “Might it not be desirable to get out ahead of that potential outcome for the sake of our student athletes’ health and our institution’s financial long-term interests, not to mention our consciences?”

Liability in football is going to bankrupt Richmond athletics? There's a new one. While we're wildly speculating, there's also a "potential outcome" that the world ends in 2025. Perhaps Richmond should be getting out ahead of that one, too?

[terrierbob]

The letter probably gave him some bonus points with the political science chair, or maybe he was showing off for his like-minded friends. I don't think there is such a thing as pure altruism. I guess he thinks Div. III means that you play flag football. Maybe a University of Wisconsin-Whitewater linebacker could demonstrate proper tackling for him.

[Mattymc727]

If they drop football, can we have their shiny new stadium?

[Go Green]

Could be worse.

It could be UR's director of admissions hating football. That's a big reason why Dartmouth had such a terrible decade in 2000 in football. xbawlingx

http://thedartmouth.com/2004/12/23/news/furstenberg

[ccd494]

I mean, there is going to come a time when colleges start dropping football because of safety concerns if the concussion piece doesn't get sorted out. I doubt it extends much south or west of New England/New York, but I could certainly see the Ivies and most of the New England elite privates starting the trend.

Would anyone be shocked to see, say, Columbia come out with a statement that repeatedly getting bashed in the head is inconsistent with the university's mission to mold young minds?

[IBleedYellow]

Another person that's complaining that their department doesn't get enough money. What's new?

[Go Green]

Would anyone be shocked to see, say, Columbia come out with a statement that repeatedly getting bashed in the head is inconsistent with the university's mission to mold young minds?

A statement? Not at all.

But dropping football is a whole other story. That would have to be done by the Ivy League as a whole. No one IL school is going to unilaterally drop football because then they'd risk getting booted from the IL. Too much $$$ tied to the IL brand for schools not named Harvard.

[terrierbob]

I think getting repeatedly bashed in the head would constitute moulding.

[kdinva]

If they drop football, can we have their shiny new stadium?

you may have to outbid Georgetown and Chuck south in an auction. :D xcoffeex

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

I think getting repeatedly bashed in the head would constitute moulding.

xlolx

I've known about this for a while and, candidly, am glad it found its way into the newspaper. The academic propeller heads need their cage rattled from time to time.

I will be watching with great interest to see if President Ayers replaces him from his post as Faculty Liaison to Athletics.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

xlolx

I've known about this for a while and, candidly, am glad it found its way into the newspaper. The academic propeller heads need their cage rattled from time to time.

I will be watching with great interest to see if President Ayers replaces him from his post as Faculty Liaison to Athletics.

You have to say this: it has to be a pretty extraordinary email to unite all the App posters and the rest of us on here on an issue. xlolx

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

You have to say this: it has to be a pretty extraordinary email to unite all the App posters and the rest of us on here on an issue. xlolx

That's the truth. This dope Mayes should join the Sun Belt of Political Science Departments.



Too soon?

[UNDBIZ]

In my experience working with multiple colleges/universities around the country, I've found that most professors don't like athletics. This is especially true at schools with large, well-known athletic programs.

[LBPop]

I guess he thinks Div. III means that you play flag football.

This is the first thing I thought of. How is DIII that much safer than DI? I guess they play fewer games and they don't have spring practice, but is that really any safer? I could argue that inferior equipment, facilities and coaching makes DIII riskier. If this guy had argued the old bulls**t that it's an ugly game played by big dummies and should not be part of higher education, I would say he's a dope--but at least he would be a consistent dope. xcrazyx

[dgtw]

A statement? Not at all.

But dropping football is a whole other story. That would have to be done by the Ivy League as a whole. No one IL school is going to unilaterally drop football because then they'd risk getting booted from the IL. Too much $$$ tied to the IL brand for schools not named Harvard.

I doubt an Ivy school would drop the sport. however, I can see an Ivy Lite school deciding to drop it. (By Ivy Lite, I mean a school that sees themselves as being as elite and snobby as the Ivies without being an actual Ivy).

[danefan]

This is the first thing I thought of. How is DIII that much safer than DI? I guess they play fewer games and they don't have spring practice, but is that really any safer? I could argue that inferior equipment, facilities and coaching makes DIII riskier. If this guy had argued the old bulls**t that it's an ugly game played by big dummies and should not be part of higher education, I would say he's a dope--but at least he would be a consistent dope. xcrazyx


Read slower. He's advocating for Division III without football.

[Laker]

Read slower. He's advocating for Division III without football.

The man really is a terrorist! xblehx

[LeadBolt]

Let see, a Political Science professor, in a school where the previous President was booted, at least in part, due to his opposition to football, working for a college president who has come out in favor of football and athletics, having just invested in a new football stadium would be politically astute enough to come out in favor of dropping football?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Let see, a Political Science professor, in a school where the previous President was booted, at least in part, due to his opposition to football, working for a college president who has come out in favor of football and athletics, having just invested in a new football stadium would be politically astute enough to come out in favor of dropping football?

The logic of a genius that writes books about Medicaid for a living.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I doubt an Ivy school would drop the sport. however, I can see an Ivy Lite school deciding to drop it. (By Ivy Lite, I mean a school that sees themselves as being as elite and snobby as the Ivies without being an actual Ivy).

Please, the Lafayette fans have enough to worry about in regards to trying to figure out how to win a game against Lehigh.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I doubt an Ivy school would drop the sport. however, I can see an Ivy Lite school deciding to drop it. (By Ivy Lite, I mean a school that sees themselves as being as elite and snobby as the Ivies without being an actual Ivy).

A classic example. I remember it well:

http://articles.philly.com/2000-12-04/sports/25580431_1_garnet-coach-program-folds-drop-football

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100115&page=1#.Ubf9opwiyUw

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/05/sports/football-no-more-football-lots-of-questions.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2000/swarthmore-drops-football

Lafayette's president (at that time) was giddy with delight urging anyone who listened that the Pards ought to follow suit. Rather than drop football, Lafayette dropped the president.




Note to LFN - did you catch any basketball this season? xrolleyesx

[Go...gate]

Could be worse.

It could be UR's director of admissions hating football. That's a big reason why Dartmouth had such a terrible decade in 2000 in football. xbawlingx

http://thedartmouth.com/2004/12/23/news/furstenberg

Or having a two or three couple of Presidents who wanted to kill the program, which is what happened at Colgate.

[Go...gate]

A classic example. I remember it well:

http://articles.philly.com/2000-12-04/sports/25580431_1_garnet-coach-program-folds-drop-football

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100115&page=1#.Ubf9opwiyUw

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/05/sports/football-no-more-football-lots-of-questions.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2000/swarthmore-drops-football

Lafayette's president (at that time) was giddy with delight urging anyone who listened that the Pards ought to follow suit. Rather than drop football, Lafayette dropped the president.


Note to LFN - did you catch any basketball this season? xrolleyesx


Is Rothkopf still at American?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Is Rothkopf still at American?

Dear Uncle Artie remains as a member of the American University Board of Trustees. He currently is the Chairman of AU's Academic Affairs Committee.

http://www.american.edu/trustees/Academic-Affairs.cfm

The oft-cited rumor that Artie Boy is single-handedly responsible for American U.'s lack of a football team remains curiously unsubstantiated. However I am confident that the security perimeter surrounding Easton, preventing his re-entry and potential subversion therein, remains functionally impenetrable.

[Babar]

A statement? Not at all.

But dropping football is a whole other story. That would have to be done by the Ivy League as a whole. No one IL school is going to unilaterally drop football because then they'd risk getting booted from the IL. Too much $$$ tied to the IL brand for schools not named Harvard.

I think we'll drop football in the next fifteen years, and possibly the next ten.

It'll be much easier, obviously, if we can make the decision jointly, but at the end of the day, the league brand is only a game-changer for a couple schools in the league. Even given a weird and unlikely scenario wherein we were the only school to drop football, and the other schools were so angry they kicked us out of the league (which would not be in their self-interest, and it's far more likely that some combination of Columbia/Dartmouth/Brown would drop football with us and even more likely that the rest of the schools would let us stay without football, and probably most likely that Columbia would be the test case, and we'd follow their convenient lead)--even given that weird scenario, we would be fine. What, we're going to stop getting research grants? Our alumni are going to stop donating? We're suddenly not going to be able to field competitive teams in the other 30 sports we sponsor? Football wasn't funding those teams. The hard math is that dropping football would free up 30 slots a year that could go to athletes in sports where we can be nationally competitive, or 30 slots for Westinghouse winners or kids from rural New Mexico or the sons or daughters of Senators. It's a huge asset.

We're already moving down this road with League-sponsored concussion studies. As evidence accumulates, it provides more and more political cover for administrators to put more and more restrictions on play. If FBS fragments, as it looks very likely to do, and we find ourselves relegated to the third tier of football (which is what would happen, and which some of the posters on this very board periodically call for) the pretense that we're playing at a competitive level becomes less and less believable. And unlike at Harvard and Yale, football's not really an occasion for annual reunions for us.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think we'll drop football in the next fifteen years, and possibly the next ten.

It'll be much easier, obviously, if we can make the decision jointly, but at the end of the day, the league brand is only a game-changer for a couple schools in the league. Even given a weird and unlikely scenario wherein we were the only school to drop football, and the other schools were so angry they kicked us out of the league (which would not be in their self-interest, and it's far more likely that some combination of Columbia/Dartmouth/Brown would drop football with us and even more likely that the rest of the schools would let us stay without football, and probably most likely that Columbia would be the test case, and we'd follow their convenient lead)--even given that weird scenario, we would be fine. What, we're going to stop getting research grants? Our alumni are going to stop donating? We're suddenly not going to be able to field competitive teams in the other 30 sports we sponsor? Football wasn't funding those teams. The hard math is that dropping football would free up 30 slots a year that could go to athletes in sports where we can be nationally competitive, or 30 slots for Westinghouse winners or kids from rural New Mexico or the sons or daughters of Senators. It's a huge asset.

We're already moving down this road with League-sponsored concussion studies. As evidence accumulates, it provides more and more political cover for administrators to put more and more restrictions on play. If FBS fragments, as it looks very likely to do, and we find ourselves relegated to the third tier of football (which is what would happen, and which some of the posters on this very board periodically call for) the pretense that we're playing at a competitive level becomes less and less believable. And unlike at Harvard and Yale, football's not really an occasion for annual reunions for us.

1. If Harvard and Yale are Doing It, Princeton will have to Do It too. Can you imagine Princeton giving up vs. Harvard and Yale (and, to some extent, Penn), saying H-Y-Penn can support football but Princeton can't?

2. Harvard at Princeton netted 10,000 fans last year. It's not filling the Yale Bowl, but a pretty damned good day at the races nonetheless.

3. The only way the Ivy League drops football is the day "game-changers" Harvard and Yale decide to drop football - not one day sooner. It will not happen because Princeton, Darmouth, Columbia and Brown jointly move to drop it together. It's not so much that Princeton could do it, they probably could. It's would they separate themselves from that dynamic with Harvard and Yale. IMO, no chance.

[Babar]

1. If Harvard and Yale are Doing It, Princeton will have to Do It too. Can you imagine Princeton giving up vs. Harvard and Yale (and, to some extent, Penn), saying H-Y-Penn can support football but Princeton can't?

That's not how it'd be spun. Nobody who knows doubts that we have the $ and infrastructure to support football. The narrative would be "endangering brains is contrary to our mission; if Harvard and Yale want to do that, it's up to them, but we're out." And whatever pressure we felt from football alumni would probably immediately be felt in a reverse direction at HY from people worried about concussions.

We don't measure ourselves against Penn.




2. Harvard at Princeton netted 10,000 fans last year. It's not filling the Yale Bowl, but a pretty damned good day at the races nonetheless.


That's a third of the stadium. Those are the sorts of numbers that get athletic directors fired at FBS schools. And relatively few were students. None of them paid much for a ticket. I think tickets were $9 last year (and free, of course, for students). The old and true saying is: if you're not paying for it, you're not the customer. The fans get very few votes in this process.


3. The only way the Ivy League drops football is the day "game-changers" Harvard and Yale decide to drop football - not one day sooner. It will not happen because Princeton, Darmouth, Columbia and Brown jointly move to drop it together. It's not so much that Princeton could do it, they probably could. It's would they separate themselves from that dynamic with Harvard and Yale. IMO, no chance.

Ha! Good try at baiting me by calling Harvard and Yale the game-changers.

Harvard and Yale decided that they were going to be each other's best frenemies way back. That's okay, because we still have a couple somebodies to measure our teams against, and we don't need an archrival. Couple schools might volunteer to take that spot (not gonna speak for them) but for all we have in common, we don't have enough. What that means is that there is no single football game on the schedule that Princetonians have circled on their calendars. There just isn't.

Harvard and Yale may decide they need their Game, but they don't need us to keep it going. They actually don't need anybody else to keep it going, and that will become more apparent if the IL winds up in a third-tier division. Why not play a five-game schedule if there's no post-season or championship? What does a notional IL championship matter when your entire season builds up to a single rivalry game? What does a league matter if your league is increasingly irrelevant in the larger football landscape? It supplies neither legitimacy nor fan interest, nor is fan interest meaningful, since it supplies neither money nor school spirit.

And what leverage do Harvard and Yale have over us? Game this out: we go to them tomorrow and say we're dropping football. They're shocked. They decide to kick us out. They start calling the other schools. Every other school realizes that (a) they only weaken the conference in every other sport by kicking us out; (b) they look like they're bending over backward to kowtow to two schools they call "peers"; (c)they will look they've sold out to football if they kick us out.

[Go Green]

I'm with Lehigh on the H-Y thing. Princeton dropping football unilaterally would be like one of Navy/Army/Air Force dropping football unilaterally-- or perhaps going to FCS unilarerally. The alums would certainly hear about it from the other rivals. The issue isn't that you can't support football. The issue is that you're too chicken to do so.

While I agree that what the picture is in 15 years is anyone's guess, I'd be shocked if any Ivy dropped football unilaterally. Let's face it--if Columbia could have dropped football without any repercussions in the 1980s, they would have. They stuck it out because they wanted to stay in the IL. Is that "selling out" to football? I mean, the IL was founded as a football conference.

If Princeton wants to take on the risk of being booted, that's their business. Maybe nothing happens and the IL keeps Princeton in for all the other sports. Maybe they're kicked out and Georgetown takes their spot (the new BE having failed to live up to billing). Maybe Princeton continues to play musical chairs with H, Y and Stanford for USN&WR's #1 university. Maybe they become Johns Hopkins with a better basketball team.

As or the concussion thing-- it's got to have credibility. If someone like Yale's Levin who has made no secret his disdain for football annoucnes that Yale's dropping football for safety reasons, it wouldn't pass the giggle test-- especially if nobody else drops it. I have no idea who Princeton's president will be in 15 years, but if it's somebody like Levin, it will be a hard sell.

In any event, Princeton wouldn't do it. The only places in the IL I can see serious talks about dropping football are Brown and Columbia. But those are two schools who benefit quite a bit from being part of the IL, that I just don't see them risking being booted from the league.

[Babar]

I'm with Lehigh on the H-Y thing. Princeton dropping football unilaterally would be like one of Navy/Army/Air Force dropping football unilaterally-- or perhaps going to FCS unilarerally. The alums would certainly hear about it from the other rivals. The issue isn't that you can't support football. The issue is that you're too chicken to do so.

While I agree that what the picture is in 15 years is anyone's guess, I'd be shocked if any Ivy dropped football unilaterally. Let's face it--if Columbia could have dropped football without any repercussions in the 1980s, they would have. They stuck it out because they wanted to stay in the IL. Is that "selling out" to football? I mean, the IL was founded as a football conference.

If Princeton wants to take on the risk of being booted, that's their business. Maybe nothing happens and the IL keeps Princeton in for all the other sports. Maybe they're kicked out and Georgetown takes their spot (the new BE having failed to live up to billing). Maybe Princeton continues to play musical chairs with H, Y and Stanford for USN&WR's #1 university. Maybe they become Johns Hopkins with a better basketball team.

As or the concussion thing-- it's got to have credibility. If someone like Yale's Levin who has made no secret his disdain for football annoucnes that Yale's dropping football for safety reasons, it wouldn't pass the giggle test-- especially if nobody else drops it. I have no idea who Princeton's president will be in 15 years, but if it's somebody like Levin, it will be a hard sell.

In any event, Princeton wouldn't do it. The only places in the IL I can see serious talks about dropping football are Brown and Columbia. But those are two schools who benefit quite a bit from being part of the IL, that I just don't see them risking being booted from the league.

This is one key piece. Every year we get farther away from memories of competitive football. In fifteen years, the last alumni who experienced four full years of I-A football as students will be almost 70 years old. The last alumni who remember the Gogolak brothers will be over 80.

The other key piece is concussions. Presidents have all the credibility they need once upper middle class parents start pulling their kids out of football, and it may have already started. You know how fast boxing dropped out of the mainstream. Over a couple of decades it turned into a sport for kids with no other options. Nobody with means wants his son to box.

At the Academies they still teach boxing to cadets and midshipman. This shows one way in which they are fundamentally different from HYP, I think.

[Catatonic]

In my experience working with multiple colleges/universities around the country, I've found that most professors don't like athletics. This is especially true at schools with large, well-known athletic programs.

As a retired professor from a university with a "large, well-known athletic program," in the SEC, I'll say that faculty indifference toward athletics made it easier to get faculty season tickets.

[Go Green]

This is one key piece. Every year we get farther away from memories of competitive football. In fifteen years, the last alumni who experienced four full years of I-A football as students will be almost 70 years old. The last alumni who remember the Gogolak brothers will be over 80.

The other key piece is concussions. Presidents have all the credibility they need once upper middle class parents start pulling their kids out of football, and it may have already started. You know how fast boxing dropped out of the mainstream. Over a couple of decades it turned into a sport for kids with no other options. Nobody with means wants his son to box.

At the Academies they still teach boxing to cadets and midshipman. This shows one way in which they are fundamentally different from HYP, I think.

I was part of the original Ivy internet message boards in the mid-1990s. Trust me--guys back then were saying "there won't be any Ivy football in 15 years" back then as well. xlolx

Safety concerns (and it was deaths, not concussions) were only part of the story as to why boxing dropped out of the mainstream. Another big part was that perceived unsavoriness of big-time boxing. Big-time football may be dirty, but it's not like organized crime is involved in fixing games.

As for rich parents telling their sons not to go out for football, when Andover, Exeter, Harvard-Westlake, Bergen Catholic, or St. Thomas drop football, then I'll be worried about the Ivy. Until then... not so much.

Again, not saying anything is etched in stone. I can envision a "perfect storm" in 15 years where a lot of things go wrong at the same time and the Ivy drops football. But I seriously, seriously doubt any one school will drop football for one reason.

[Ivytalk]

Ivy football will limp along for awhile. What will ultimately kill the sport is the steady decline of student and alumni interest. When you have to struggle to attract 10,000 fans to a league game, the handwriting is on the wall.

But back to the thread. Mayes is an associate professor, so he has tenure...and the concomitant right to be an uninformed gasbag. Nothing will come of this at UR.

[Catatonic]

Ivy football will limp along for awhile. What will ultimately kill the sport is the steady decline of student and alumni interest. When you have to struggle to attract 10,000 fans to a league game, the handwriting is on the wall.

But back to the thread. Mayes is an associate professor, so he has tenure...and the concomitant right to be an uninformed gasbag. Nothing will come of this at UR.

You say, "concomitant right to be an uninformed gasbag." I say, unfettered exercise of academic freedom. xsmugx

[Go Green]

When you have to struggle to attract 10,000 fans to a league game, the handwriting is on the wall..

While everyone agrees we can improve attendance, it's not like this is a new problem. I can assure you there were times in the 1990s when Harvard, Princeton, and Penn got four figures for league games as well.

[LeadBolt]

You say, "concomitant right to be an uninformed gasbag." I say, unfettered exercise of academic freedom. xsmugx

I'm unclear on the difference. xcoffeex

[DFW HOYA]

@Babar: The argument that no football opens up 15 slots is irrelevant going forward when online courses start to change how schools view the concept of residential enrollment.

The issue of concussions is directly related to the decision to change the helmets in the early 1970's to mitigate the threat of skull fracture. Well, it worked. Anyone cracked their skull in a game lately? So when Riddell and Schutt come to a common helmet standard (and they will), much of the current issue will have been accounted for. Besides, there are now studies saying soccer headers are a cause of brain damage, does one drop that as well? Or lacrosse? Or wrestling?

Thirty years ago, Al McGuire once predicted that college basketball games would be played in font of studio audiences of no more than a few hundred, because the quality of TV would be so great that no one would see the need for attending. By contrast, this year's Final Four is headed to Jerry World.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The issue of concussions is directly related to the decision to change the helmets in the early 1970's to mitigate the threat of skull fracture. Well, it worked. Anyone cracked their skull in a game lately? So when Riddell and Schutt come to a common helmet standard (and they will), much of the current issue will have been accounted for. Besides, there are now studies saying soccer headers are a cause of brain damage, does one drop that as well? Or lacrosse? Or wrestling? Or hockey?

FIFY, a sport with many more concussions and much less protection than football. And it, um, plays a prominent part in many IL institutions.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ivy football will limp along for awhile. What will ultimately kill the sport is the steady decline of student and alumni interest. When you have to struggle to attract 10,000 fans to a league game, the handwriting is on the wall.

Every PL school and I'd venture to say more than half of FCS would kill to have 10,000 at their league games (with the exception of The Rivalry, Cat/Griz or other destination rivalry games), or at a bare minimum give up an unneeded body part.

[bonarae]

We're already moving down this road with League-sponsored concussion studies. As evidence accumulates, it provides more and more political cover for administrators to put more and more restrictions on play. If FBS fragments, as it looks very likely to do, and we find ourselves relegated to the third tier of football (which is what would happen, and which some of the posters on this very board periodically call for) the pretense that we're playing at a competitive level becomes less and less believable. And unlike at Harvard and Yale, football's not really an occasion for annual reunions for us.

Are these concussion studies really necessary? Not quite so. Third tier? As in in league with the PFL members? xconfusedx


This is one key piece. Every year we get farther away from memories of competitive football. In fifteen years, the last alumni who experienced four full years of I-A football as students will be almost 70 years old. The last alumni who remember the Gogolak brothers will be over 80.

The other key piece is concussions. Presidents have all the credibility they need once upper middle class parents start pulling their kids out of football, and it may have already started. You know how fast boxing dropped out of the mainstream. Over a couple of decades it turned into a sport for kids with no other options. Nobody with means wants his son to box.

Hmm... just like UChicago football? xchinscratchx Because of that decision to drop football back in the days when some of the Ivies were kings of the gridiron (just three years after the first Heisman trophy winner was awarded from there), nobody except those in the D3 world know that the Maroons play football again and had already restarted football back in 1969. (see NYT article about UChicago football from September 2011, the thread linking to it is posted in the Other Sports subforum of this forum.)

But what about ice hockey, given its problems regarding violence and concussions? Not all Ivies sponsor this sport, yet those schools that have varsity programs in place are very stable for now.

And which sports would upper middle class kids go after football? Obscure sports (in some regions) like rugby, lacrosse and the like? Or even non-NCAA sanctioned sports like Ultimate Frisbee? xchinscratchx


I was part of the original Ivy internet message boards in the mid-1990s. Trust me--guys back then were saying "there won't be any Ivy football in 15 years" back then as well. xlolx

Safety concerns (and it was deaths, not concussions) were only part of the story as to why boxing dropped out of the mainstream. Another big part was that perceived unsavoriness of big-time boxing. Big-time football may be dirty, but it's not like organized crime is involved in fixing games.

As for rich parents telling their sons not to go out for football, when Andover, Exeter, Harvard-Westlake, Bergen Catholic, or St. Thomas drop football, then I'll be worried about the Ivy. Until then... not so much.

Again, not saying anything is etched in stone. I can envision a "perfect storm" in 15 years where a lot of things go wrong at the same time and the Ivy drops football. But I seriously, seriously doubt any one school will drop football for one reason.

Are the Presidents' and the Ivy fans' points of view regarding football contrastable? Or that of a realistic vs. unrealistic one?

Dirty? Because of PEDs or the risk of being paralyzed in hard-hitting tackles?

OK, the beginning of the "perfect storm" has been happening for quite some time now, with the conference realignments/inter-division move-uppers going on...

[Babar]

@Babar: The argument that no football opens up 15 slots is irrelevant going forward when online courses start to change how schools view the concept of residential enrollment.

You and I have traded posts on this before. I buy that online courses will change some things. I see no way they will diminish the demand for slots at Princeton or Georgetown. And I can't speak for Georgetown, but I see no way Princeton will have moved away from a residential model in fifteen years.


The issue of concussions is directly related to the decision to change the helmets in the early 1970's to mitigate the threat of skull fracture. Well, it worked. Anyone cracked their skull in a game lately? So when Riddell and Schutt come to a common helmet standard (and they will), much of the current issue will have been accounted for. Besides, there are now studies saying soccer headers are a cause of brain damage, does one drop that as well? Or lacrosse? Or wrestling?
This is a pretty technical discussion: are we invested enough to have it? The short version of my side is that this was an issue well before the 1970's, and helmets have only changed things at the margin. The zeroth order predictor of neurological problems is exposure to impacts: once you account for that everything else is window dressing. I think hockey's going to have the same problems football's having, lacrosse fewer, soccer and wrestling far fewer. Basically in order of exposure. It's like radiation: the question isn't whether you'll have some exposure, it's about best practices for mitigation.


Thirty years ago, Al McGuire once predicted that college basketball games would be played in font of studio audiences of no more than a few hundred, because the quality of TV would be so great that no one would see the need for attending. By contrast, this year's Final Four is headed to Jerry World.
To be fair, we are for the first time in a while seeing attendance drop off in FBS at the biggest schools. Just a percentage here and there, but the SEC is already publicly blaming it on HDTV and worrying about improving the stadium experience. Al McGuire may just have been ahead of his time. But who knows?

[Babar]

FIFY, a sport with many more concussions and much less protection than football. And it, um, plays a prominent part in many IL institutions.

They're going to have the exact same problems. It's lower profile nationally, so it's not as hot a topic, but when the NHL loses its best player for a year because of a concussion, the storm is gathering.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They're going to have the exact same problems. It's lower profile nationally, so it's not as hot a topic, but when the NHL loses its best player for a year because of a concussion, the storm is gathering.

Ah, but would Harvard and/or Yale pull the plug on their successful (this year, national champion) hockey programs over the issue? Not that hypocrisy or optics have ever stopped them before, but pulling the plug on football due to the concussion studies while keeping hockey would be such a jump in the hypocrisy-o-meter that it would have me start a 27 part series on its outrageousness.

[Babar]

And which sports would upper middle class kids go after football? Obscure sports (in some regions) like rugby, lacrosse and the like? Or even non-NCAA sanctioned sports like Ultimate Frisbee?

I realize I'm not the first Chicken Little.

But I get the strong impression that my friends who were varsity athletes at Princeton are steering their kids away from football. These are friends from states where high school football is huge. And these are the kids who would be the age to play for Princeton in ten or fifteen years. Obviously, it's just anecdotal. But there are a lot of other sports, from basketball to baseball to track. And if you want to hit somebody, wrestling and water polo are honestly probably safer for your brain.

[Babar]

...it would have me start a 27 part series on its outrageousness.

I look forward to your thoughts.

[DFW HOYA]

To be fair, we are for the first time in a while seeing attendance drop off in FBS at the biggest schools. Just a percentage here and there, but the SEC is already publicly blaming it on HDTV and worrying about improving the stadium experience. Al McGuire may just have been ahead of his time. But who knows?

The SEC could fill stadia many times over, but the sheer cost is driving away people on the margin.

A family of four could go to the Princeton-Yale game for as little as $40 before parking and concessions. That same family of four would pay $340 for four tickets at Alabama -- assuming you could get the seats at face value, which of course, you can't.

Four upper deck seats in the corner at Alabama for LSU start at $1,000 on StubHub. How about four along the goal line, way up in row 53? $3,132. At some point, price elasticity begins to take its toll.

[ElCid]

This is a pretty technical discussion: are we invested enough to have it? The short version of my side is that this was an issue well before the 1970's, and helmets have only changed things at the margin. The zeroth order predictor of neurological problems is exposure to impacts: once you account for that everything else is window dressing. I think hockey's going to have the same problems football's having, lacrosse fewer, soccer and wrestling far fewer. Basically in order of exposure. It's like radiation: the question isn't whether you'll have some exposure, it's about best practices for mitigation.

I can't remember where I heard it but it was an interesting suggestion. It was some old-timer talking head on EPSN probably. I heard someone say that way you cut down on the number of hard hits (and supposedly the number of concussions) is to eliminate the face mask (pretty much pre-1950's, I think face masks came out in the mid-50s). Guys will not hit as hard while they are more exposed. There may also be less helmet to helmet hits. They would obviously have to use much better technique in tackling. I am sure that American dental association would like it. But I am also sure it would simply replace concussive injuries with others.xbangx

[Go Green]

OK, the beginning of the "perfect storm" has been happening for quite some time now, with the conference realignments/inter-division move-uppers going on...

Not really.

Perfect storm is more along the lines of Brown/Columbia become the league powers, and Harvard/Yale both suck for several years do to apathy/mismanagement. Getting five figures to attend ANY Ivy game becomes a rarity.

The league sees several unforunate Nick Buoniconti incidents in a short period of time.

Economy crashes, forcing unviersities to engage in serious budget cuts.

Even IL presidents who were perceived as relatively football-friendly start talking about dropping football.

And maybe a few others...

[Go...gate]

The SEC could fill stadia many times over, but the sheer cost is driving away people on the margin.

A family of four could go to the Princeton-Yale game for as little as $40 before parking and concessions. That same family of four would pay $340 for four tickets at Alabama -- assuming you could get the seats at face value, which of course, you can't.

Four upper deck seats in the corner at Alabama for LSU start at $1,000 on StubHub. How about four along the goal line, way up in row 53? $3,132. At some point, price elasticity begins to take its toll.

PU Season Tix go for about $25 and parking can be had for free if you know which streets to park on. It is a great day out with the family.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Every PL school and I'd venture to say more than half of FCS would kill to have 10,000 at their league games (with the exception of The Rivalry, Cat/Griz or other destination rivalry games), or at a bare minimum give up an unneeded body part.

Assuming that both institutions (in addition to Center Valley) market the hell out of it, next year's sesquicentennial Lafayette vs. Lehigh game at Yankee Stadium probably will establish a valid benchmark for the attendance limit at an unflinchingly financed, professionally promoted, non H-Y northeastern FCS football game.

At some point after this season ends someone probably will start a thread to try to predict the size of next year's Yankee Stadium crowd. I'll take the under - but I'll gladly acknowledge surprise in the event of a better outcome.

[Ivytalk]

Not really.

Perfect storm is more along the lines of Brown/Columbia become the league powers, and Harvard/Yale both suck for several years do to apathy/mismanagement. Getting five figures to attend ANY Ivy game becomes a rarity.

The league sees several unforunate Nick Buoniconti incidents in a short period of time.

Economy crashes, forcing unviersities to engage in serious budget cuts.

Even IL presidents who were perceived as relatively football-friendly start talking about dropping football.

And maybe a few others...

I was at Harvard in the 70s, before they took the end zone bleachers out. We routinely drew 25-30K for Princeton, Brown and Dartmouth; 41K (with bleachers) was the Yale sellout; and Columbia, Cornell and Penn drew 12-18K. OOC usually in the mid-teens, with in-state rivals like UMass, BU, and HC. Older alums were more loyal fans then and, face it, there were more guys in the student body to follow FB. Harvard was 65-35 men to women in my day. Now it's about 51-49 the other way.

[kdinva]

The "rebuttal":

http://ursports.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2013/06/19/ur-faculty-athletics-rep-addresses-t-d-story/