New Salvo in War Against Ivy League Postseason Ban

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/5/29/harvard-football-ivy-league-fcs/?page=single


In 2013, the playoff will expand to 24 teams. The Ancient Eight champion will not be one of them.

“Other commissioners would love to see the Ivy League be part of the playoffs, but they understand it’s a long-standing traditional decision,” said Robin Harris, the Executive Director of the conference. “They would love to see us and they mention it occasionally, but they understand that we’re not participating.”

Crimson coach Tim Murphy says that the Ivy presidents have been mostly quiet on the issue during his 13-year tenure, despite the fact that—according to Brown coach Phil Estes—the league’s coaches will often ask to have playoff participation put up for discussion among the conference’s presidents.

“I think [the coaches would] all be in support of it,” Estes said.

So far, though, the presidents haven’t budged.

“There was a point, maybe back in 1998-99 [when] there were a few presidents that tried to make a push to put it on the agenda,” Estes said. “But it didn’t go anywhere from there.”

Currently, the Ivy League remains an active member of the subdivision, meeting two or three times per year with its commissioner and maintaining regular communications about FCS administrative issues. But it continues to remain rigid when it comes to joining the playoff.

“The position on this issue is the same. There’s been no serious discussion about changing it since I’ve been here,” said Harris, who joined the Ivy League in 2009.

To me, that's pretty shocking. Not even a discussion about it? Even when the playoffs expanded from 16 to 20 to 24?


Both Murphy and Estes, two of the three coaches to win an Ancient Eight championship in the last seven years—the other, Penn’s Al Bagnoli, declined to comment for this story—say that they do not believe that the conference’s ban on postseason play has a major impact on the talent they are able to attract.

But RB Treavor Scales, who led the Ivy League in rushing this year, disagrees.

“To say that that [the playoff ban] doesn’t come into play in some people’s decisions would be ludicrous,” the running back said. “Everybody wants to be able to measure themselves against the rest of the nation, and everybody wants to be able to play against folks from their hometown or have their family and friends from nearby come see them. It can impact recruiting in some way.”

Because a sustained playoff run would increase the exposure and reputability of any program, Charlie Cobb says that tournament participation could benefit recruiting by attracting more attention around the country to the conference itself.

“What it gets back to is the experience of playing different teams in different places,” Cobb said. “I think that’s the piece that probably the Ivies are missing and the Division I playoffs [are] missing [without the Ivies].”

I absolutely love Scales' quote here.


“In the past, it’s always been about the Harvard-Yale game, and they feel maybe the playoffs would be a bit of a letdown after that,” he said. “I think the rest of the league would like to have the opportunity...to play in the playoffs.”

But Harris says she does not think participation in the FCS playoffs would attract the interest of fans of the Ancient Eight.

“I think our fans care about Ivy League football,” she said. “Rivalry games are going to draw the most fans [to] a given game, and whether or not a team is going on to the FCS playoffs, I don’t think is going to [have an] impact.”

Tradition, therefore, continues to dominate when it comes to Ivy League football.

“The Ivy League presidents are not interested in allowing participation in the playoffs because they value Ivy football as it currently exists,” Harris said. “The focus for our teams is on the regular season and the value of Ivy League play. The tradition and history of Ivy League football is paramount.”

It's that statement that has Columbia's football blogger up in arms:

http://culions.blogspot.com/2013/05/time-to-be-heard.html


Ivy League Executive Director Robin Harris says she doesn’t think the fans really want entry into the FCS playoffs.

I’m sorry Ms. Harris, but your email inbox is about to explode and I will be partly responsible.

[Go...gate]

Most of the Ivy League's Executive Directors - more recently, Chuck Yrgoinen and Jeff Orleans -have been pretty realistic when it comes to playoffs - more than once, each admitted it was probably the majority view that playoffs were very much on the wish list at most Ivy schools and would benefit both the league's competitiveness and recruiting. Harris is clearly not as independent - she repeats what she is told to say.

[Laker]

If I had Robin Harris's email I'd send her a message too. I see no reason not to have the football teams eligible for the playoffs when the other Ivy sports are. That is discrimination. And if you use tradition as your only excuse, I could point to countless traditions that were defended by, "Well, we've always done it this way."

If Bobby Kennedy was around today, he might say, "Some men see things as they are and ask why? I dream things that never were and ask why not?"

[bluehenbillk]

Is it because the Ivies compete in FCS in football & D-1 in everything else that they prohibit only football from the postseason??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If I had Robin Harris's email I'd send her a message too. I see no reason not to have the football teams eligible for the playoffs when the other Ivy sports are. That is discrimination. And if you use tradition as your only excuse, I could point to countless traditions that were defended by, "Well, we've always done it this way."

If Bobby Kennedy was around today, he might say, "Some men see things as they are and ask why? I dream things that never were and ask why not?"

It's actually in the blog posting from the Columbia blogger I linked to. Here it is:

http://culions.blogspot.com/2013/05/time-to-be-heard.html

[DFW HOYA]

Of course, this is not Robin Harris' decision, it's that of three people: Drew Faust, Richard Levin, and Christopher Eisgruber, Shirley Tilghman's successor at Old Nassau.

Because unless H-Y-P signs off on it, it doesn't get done. That's the Ivy way.

[Laker]

It's actually in the blog posting from the Columbia blogger I linked to. Here it is:

http://culions.blogspot.com/2013/05/time-to-be-heard.html

Thanks LFN. I was in too big of a hurry and missed it. I already sent emails to both of the people who he listed.

[Pard4Life]

Harris is correct to an extent. Ivy fans would be interested in following a team in the playoffs, just like a fan from any other team. But the tradition and mentality of the Ivy is so insular that competing in the playoffs would be wrong. It is not the highest championship awarded in the sport. And football is like an unwanted step-child (but I don't know how hockey is so popular even though the teams are large and it's violent). Having football compete in the playoffs would be giving it a stature that has long been forbidden.

If you could form an action committee with some very influential alumni at each school pressing the issue, you may have some action. But would people like Robert Kraft and Hank Paulsen agree with the tradition mentality?

[Babar]

The Ivy Council (made up of students) has asked the League to consider it as recently as 2006. Some public voices in athletic departments are for it. At least a majority of the coaches are for it. Princeton's football alums publicly agitated for it very recently. If none of these people can get traction, fan voices mean very little.

At the end of the day, the IL prefers medium-sized football to big football. Not a judgment on the way anybody else does it: Stanford does it bigger and UChicago does it smaller, and they're both great schools, I'm sure Chris Eisgruber would agree. But that's not who we are.

[DFW HOYA]

The IL needs to get an 11th game before attemoting to wins hearts and minds over playoff. One can make a philosophical argument about playoffs, but what's the problem with the 11th game? Clearly the Ivy survived adding a 10th game without the end of civilization as we know it.

[Babar]

The IL needs to get an 11th game before attemoting to wins hearts and minds over playoff. One can make a philosophical argument about playoffs, but what's the problem with the 11th game? Clearly the Ivy survived adding a 10th game without the end of civilization as we know it.

I think an 11th game would actually be more meaningful than playoff participation. But if you're not asking the question rhetorically, I think the obvious problem is concussions. With practices already constrained, chances of an 11th game went from plausible to remote.

[Lehigh'98]

Aside from historically not participating, what is the real downside? Plenty of $. Not likely to have to fly across the country in the first round or 2, better recruiting (although I suspect this isn't as big as they try to make it out, no one is choosing Monmouth over Princeton because of a chance at FCS glory) and a chance to get fans more interested. Downsides???????

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Aside from historically not participating, what is the real downside? Plenty of $. Not likely to have to fly across the country in the first round or 2, better recruiting (although I suspect this isn't as big as they try to make it out, no one is choosing Monmouth over Princeton because of a chance at FCS glory) and a chance to get fans more interested. Downsides???????

One of the really interesting things Mr. Scales said ties into this - the chance to play in front of friends and family. For example, through the magic of the FCS playoffs, Jake Drwal, from Kansas, got to play an extra game at relatively nearby Northern Iowa, which allowed many friends and family to see him play that ordinarily wouldn't. IL schedules are famously insular, and with 3 OOC games and many against PL schools, there are few surprises.

If the IL participated in the FCS playoffs, they'd at least have a fighting chance to play in the state of Florida. When was the last time Harvard played in Florida? Try.... never. (In fact, the last time Harvard played against a school from Florida was UF, in 1929. In Cambridge.)

[Lehigh'98]

One of the really interesting things Mr. Scales said ties into this - the chance to play in front of friends and family. For example, through the magic of the FCS playoffs, Jake Drwal, from Kansas, got to play an extra game at relatively nearby Northern Iowa, which allowed many friends and family to see him play that ordinarily wouldn't. IL schedules are famously insular, and with 3 OOC games and many against PL schools, there are few surprises.

If the IL participated in the FCS playoffs, they'd at least have a fighting chance to play in the state of Florida. When was the last time Harvard played in Florida? Try.... never. (In fact, the last time Harvard played against a school from Florida was UF, in 1929. In Cambridge.)

I absolutely know that almost no players or coaches would see travelling as a minus. Can't speak for the president's and such, but you make a good point, it can only open new doors and I bet a Harvard, Princeton or Yale would be a pretty big draw at an FCS playoff game. They have name brands that other FCS schools can't dream of.

[The Maestro]

agree about playoffs having little pull with regard to h-y-p but i can see many a kid opting for w&m, lehigh, nova, richmond, 'gate, etc over the rest of the IL all things equal, because of chance for post-season and maybe tv.

also assuming patriot going scholarship has improved chances of pl'ers grabbing kids from brown, cornell, columbia, etc that might have leaned other way in years past when financial obligation might have been a jump ball. not all the time, but certainly an increase in luring kids away compared to before

[Lehigh'98]

agree about with regard to h-y-p but i can see many a kid opting for w&m, lehigh, nova, richmond, 'gate, etc over the rest of the IL all things equal, because of chance for post-season and maybe tv.

also assuming patriot going scholarship has improved chances of pl'ers grabbing kids from brown, cornell, columbia, etc that might have leaned other way in years past. not all the time, but certainly an increase in luring kids away compared to before

Those schools are academically competitive in some areas, but even so, a football player who isn't going pro yet has a chance to go IVY in more cases than not is going IVY. I was in that position way back, I chose LU because of the engineering program they had vs Penn. It was a very difficult decision and one I often wonder about how things might be different today if I did. Not saying I regret it..

[bonarae]

The IL needs to get an 11th game before attemoting to wins hearts and minds over playoff. One can make a philosophical argument about playoffs, but what's the problem with the 11th game? Clearly the Ivy survived adding a 10th game without the end of civilization as we know it.

I agree. The 11th game and the playoff participation by the champion should be added at the same time...

[Pard4Life]

One of the really interesting things Mr. Scales said ties into this - the chance to play in front of friends and family. For example, through the magic of the FCS playoffs, Jake Drwal, from Kansas, got to play an extra game at relatively nearby Northern Iowa, which allowed many friends and family to see him play that ordinarily wouldn't. IL schedules are famously insular, and with 3 OOC games and many against PL schools, there are few surprises.

If the IL participated in the FCS playoffs, they'd at least have a fighting chance to play in the state of Florida. When was the last time Harvard played in Florida? Try.... never. (In fact, the last time Harvard played against a school from Florida was UF, in 1929. In Cambridge.)

Engaging and visiting alumni is the more important issue in play. Scheduling USD allows Harvard/Yale to visit their southern California alumni. And what about their Chicago alumni? Southern Florida alumni? Babar is right that an 11th game would be more of an impact because it's on the schedule... i.e. not decided a week ahead of time. And, it allows the Ivy to continue to amply schedule their Patsies and Lafayette victories.

[The Maestro]

I hear you '98 and our situations are/were similar. But $$$ plays a huge factor for many families, and for an impoverished & immature 18 y/o (like myself at the time), and to be honest, the prestige/recent success of the football program, the stadium, urban/suburban/rural campus, and opponents on schedule were among many non=academic considerations and all pretty important to me.

When you're talking schools the caliber of Patriots, Richmond, W&M, and Nova. Its not exactly like you're "settling" for a 2nd-class education. Struggled over my decision because aid packages were all similar. If a full-boat was able to be offered at that time and others required loans or out-of-pocket then decision would have been made for me....Ivy or not.

[Ivytalk]

Robin Harris makes me sick. So do the Ivy presidents. Tradition, my eye. We won an NCAA hoops playoff game this year, and that jacked up a few apathetic undergrads. Treavor Scales has it about right.

Will Harvard get more admitted students away from Stanford if they play at San Diego? No. Harvard loses more California admits to Stanford than it does to Yale or Princeton. And I'll be astounded if there are more than a couple hundred non-parent Harvard fans at USD.

[dbackjon]

NCAA should make all schools all or nothing on the post-season - if you allow it for one sport, you must allow it for ALL Sports.

So, either FCS playoffs, or no post-season in ANY Sport. Only fair.

[Ivytalk]

NCAA should make all schools all or nothing on the post-season - if you allow it for one sport, you must allow it for ALL Sports.

So, either FCS playoffs, or no post-season in ANY Sport. Only fair.

There is some logic to what you say, but I despise the NCAA almost as much as the Ivy presidents. Maybe just cut off the Ivies from all federal funding if they don't come around to the FCS playoffs. Nothing speaks to an Ivy Prez like the long green.

[Babar]

NCAA should make all schools all or nothing on the post-season - if you allow it for one sport, you must allow it for ALL Sports.

So, either FCS playoffs, or no post-season in ANY Sport. Only fair.

Friend, we've been down this road before on this board. That doesn't make any sense. And even if the NCAA thought it made sense, and tried it, it wouldn't work.

[Babar]

There is some logic to what you say, but I despise the NCAA almost as much as the Ivy presidents. Maybe just cut off the Ivies from all federal funding if they don't come around to the FCS playoffs. Nothing speaks to an Ivy Prez like the long green.

There is no possible response to this.

[Ivytalk]

There is no possible response to this.

Sure there is, Babar! Give it a shot! And my best to La Reine Celeste!

[Babar]

Sure there is, Babar! Give it a shot! And my best to La Reine Celeste!

Will do. xthumbsupx Can't believe I'm on this board during Reunions. xrolleyesx :)

[Go...gate]

Reunions are right up the road! Always a great and colorful event and the usual good crowds this evening.

The P-Rade tomorrow will be a hoot.

[ngineer]

For supposedly such 'enlightened' institutions, such stuck in the mud, concrete thinking is stunning.

[Ivytalk]

Will do. xthumbsupx Can't believe I'm on this board during Reunions. xrolleyesx :)

Having married into a Princeton family, I can believe it!:D

[Ivytalk]

For supposedly such 'enlightened' institutions, such stuck in the mud, concrete thinking is stunning.

It's "concrete" thinking, all right, ng. They're "blockheads"!xsmiley_wixxsmiley_wix

[dgtw]

With a ten game schedule and expanded playoffs, an Ivy team making the championship game could see their season extended by 50%.

That is not an argument for or against, just an observation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With a ten game schedule and expanded playoffs, an Ivy team making the championship game could see their season extended by 50%.

That is not an argument for or against, just an observation.

Lacrosse's does too, and it is during many FINALS.

[bonarae]

Robin Harris makes me sick. So do the Ivy presidents. Tradition, my eye. We won an NCAA hoops playoff game this year, and that jacked up a few apathetic undergrads. Treavor Scales has it about right.

Will Harvard get more admitted students away from Stanford if they play at San Diego? No. Harvard loses more California admits to Stanford than it does to Yale or Princeton. And I'll be astounded if there are more than a couple hundred non-parent Harvard fans at USD.

xchinscratchx Time will really tell... there needs to be a pro-athletics Ivy President... or even an Ivy athletics director who is a college football positivist, just like the presidents who restored football at both New Haven (D2) and ETSU (after their previous presidents kicked football off their athletics programs one year of each other, then the next administrations reinstated both of them within 15 years.)

Pacific (CA) comes to my mind. The administration is content with not restarting football anytime soon (it is their 18th year of non-football existence), and maybe they'll probably go UChicago (in the Maroons' 30 years of no football participation, much changed in the game and after they reinstated it, they soon began play in a lower division than ours, and even today, they don't play the likes of UMHB or Mount Union in the Road to Salem.) Hofstra? Northeastern? No chance for both at this time.


NCAA should make all schools all or nothing on the post-season - if you allow it for one sport, you must allow it for ALL Sports.

So, either FCS playoffs, or no post-season in ANY Sport. Only fair.

Well, wishful thinking still... even further now. xsmhx


There is some logic to what you say, but I despise the NCAA almost as much as the Ivy presidents. Maybe just cut off the Ivies from all federal funding if they don't come around to the FCS playoffs. Nothing speaks to an Ivy Prez like the long green.

Probably. Then if this happens, I can transfer my FCS loyalty to Albany, Stony Brook, or ETSU (good thing the last team's program was restored this year.) [Note: some of my cousins attended these three schools.]


For supposedly such 'enlightened' institutions, such stuck in the mud, concrete thinking is stunning.

That question gets myself thinking, why they have hardened their heads and hearts toward the ones who matter the most (i.e. coaches and players)? xsmhx


With a ten game schedule and expanded playoffs, an Ivy team making the championship game could see their season extended by 50%.

That is not an argument for or against, just an observation.

Yes. But is there an effect to lengthened schedule to lowered academic performance? Not quite there.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The great brand of the Ivy's is exactly why they won't compete in playoffs or schedule anyone outside the northeast. The Ivy's would be just like the Patriot and MEAC in most years. If you were Harvard, would you want to get your ass kicked by UT-Martin?

When I see an academic publication from an Ivy, I read it as if it were written by a special ed. student. Those institutions have ventured so far to the Left in their worldview that it's common to see research based on ideological assumptions that are beyond flawed. Right now, sportswriters routinely "rank" Ivy's higher than they deserve when they probably shouldn't crack the Top 40 much less the Top 25. Why would the Ivy's risk losing the deferential treatment by actually working for their reputation. They're overrated, not stupid.

[DFW HOYA]

NCAA should make all schools all or nothing on the post-season - if you allow it for one sport, you must allow it for ALL Sports. So, either FCS playoffs, or no post-season in ANY Sport. Only fair.

Of course that's not fair. A post-season opportunity is, after all, is an invitation. If they choose not to particiapte for any variety of reasons, that should be an institutional decision. The Ivy issue is, of course, not an institutional decision. The SWAC is another matter.


The great brand of the Ivy's is exactly why they won't compete in playoffs or schedule anyone outside the northeast. The Ivy's would be just like the Patriot and MEAC in most years. If you were Harvard, would you want to get your ass kicked by UT-Martin?

Unfair on both counts. The Ivy budgets generally don't provide for national travel in football and they really don't need to. What does Dartmouth gain traveling to Northern Iowa when alumni can travel to a game in Pennsylvania? And when was the last time UT-Martin played on the East Coast?

[Babar]

The great brand of the Ivy's is exactly why they won't compete in playoffs or schedule anyone outside the northeast. The Ivy's would be just like the Patriot and MEAC in most years. If you were Harvard, would you want to get your ass kicked by UT-Martin?

When I see an academic publication from an Ivy, I read it as if it were written by a special ed. student. Those institutions have ventured so far to the Left in their worldview that it's common to see research based on ideological assumptions that are beyond flawed. Right now, sportswriters routinely "rank" Ivy's higher than they deserve when they probably shouldn't crack the Top 40 much less the Top 25. Why would the Ivy's risk losing the deferential treatment by actually working for their reputation. They're overrated, not stupid.

What academic publications do you read?

[Babar]

It really feels sometimes like some of the posters here live inside a bubble. Football doesn't even crack the top 40 list of priorities of most Ivy presidents. And honestly, it shouldn't.

[bulldog10jw]

It really feels sometimes like some of the posters here live inside a bubble. Football doesn't even crack the top 40 list of priorities of most Ivy presidents. And honestly, it shouldn't.

I don't want football to crack the top 40. I just want the football team to be treated like all the other Ivy sports teams. The first step is an 11th game.

[WestCoastAggie]

This has been one fascinating read. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Penn was not forced to give up their aspirations for big time football after World War II. Would the rest of the ancient 8 followed suit and playing teams in the B1G on a regular basis? I could see a game between Harvard and Michigan or Yale and Ohio State or even Notre Dame and Princeton being a major TV draw in today's marketplace.

[Babar]

I don't want football to crack the top 40. I just want the football team to be treated like all the other Ivy sports teams. The first step is an 11th game.

But it's not like every other sport. Other sports don't have message boards (not big ones, anyway.) Other sports don't pay their coaches millions. No other sport has split Division I into two tiers based on scholarship support and attendance levels. The only other sport that comes close is basketball.

[Laker]

This has been one fascinating read. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Penn was not forced to give up their aspirations for big time football after World War II. Would the rest of the ancient 8 followed suit and playing teams in the B1G on a regular basis? I could see a game between Harvard and Michigan or Yale and Ohio State or even Notre Dame and Princeton being a major TV draw in today's marketplace.

Same thing with Army and Navy. I read that Paul Dietzel left LSU for Army because he thought that the Vietnam War would lead to a rebirth of Army football, like WWII did. If that was his reason, he guessed wrong.

[Ivytalk]

It really feels sometimes like some of the posters here live inside a bubble. Football doesn't even crack the top 40 list of priorities of most Ivy presidents. And honestly, it shouldn't.

Correct. They should focus more on providing a peerless undergraduate liberal arts education that eschews the trendy and the politically correct. But, since that train has left the station, I'll settle for playoff football.

[DFW HOYA]

Same thing with Army and Navy. I read that Paul Dietzel left LSU for Army because he thought that the Vietnam War would lead to a rebirth of Army football, like WWII did. If that was his reason, he guessed wrong.

I always sensed the opposite was in place--WWII did not elevate Army football insomuch as the war depleted most other schools of its talent. The Big 10, Pacific Coast, Big-6, and SWC schools weren't staffed up until the late 1940's as a result.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

As a sports fan I'd love to see the Ivies participate in the FCS playoffs. The league has produced more than enough teams capable of making a serious run. I think it would be funny to watch one of the "power programs" get humbled by Harvard, Princeton, Penn etc...

[bulldog10jw]

But it's not like every other sport. Other sports don't have message boards (not big ones, anyway.) Other sports don't pay their coaches millions. No other sport has split Division I into two tiers based on scholarship support and attendance levels. The only other sport that comes close is basketball.

The Ivies don't pay their coaches millions and attendance levels do not apply (and Yale, for one, doesn't have much of a message board). The Ivy teams have very successfully, for 60 years now, proven that they are not going to over emphasize football.

A little additional emphasis to put football in line with how other sports are treated will not end the world as we know it. Let me put it this way. I don't want football discriminated against just because it's football.

[bonarae]

The great brand of the Ivy's is exactly why they won't compete in playoffs or schedule anyone outside the northeast. The Ivy's would be just like the Patriot and MEAC in most years. If you were Harvard, would you want to get your ass kicked by UT-Martin?

When I see an academic publication from an Ivy, I read it as if it were written by a special ed. student. Those institutions have ventured so far to the Left in their worldview that it's common to see research based on ideological assumptions that are beyond flawed. Right now, sportswriters routinely "rank" Ivy's higher than they deserve when they probably shouldn't crack the Top 40 much less the Top 25. Why would the Ivy's risk losing the deferential treatment by actually working for their reputation. They're overrated, not stupid.

I believe it is true these days. xsmhx


I don't want football to crack the top 40. I just want the football team to be treated like all the other Ivy sports teams. The first step is an 11th game.

I second the motion...


This has been one fascinating read. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Penn was not forced to give up their aspirations for big time football after World War II. Would the rest of the ancient 8 followed suit and playing teams in the B1G on a regular basis? I could see a game between Harvard and Michigan or Yale and Ohio State or even Notre Dame and Princeton being a major TV draw in today's marketplace.

I also wonder what went Ivy football's reputation down the drain after World War II...


But it's not like every other sport. Other sports don't have message boards (not big ones, anyway.) Other sports don't pay their coaches millions. No other sport has split Division I into two tiers based on scholarship support and attendance levels. The only other sport that comes close is basketball.

Yes. Basketball it is. But it became only popular recently with the resurgence of Harvard's men's basketball program.


As a sports fan I'd love to see the Ivies participate in the FCS playoffs. The league has produced more than enough teams capable of making a serious run. I think it would be funny to watch one of the "power programs" get humble by Harvard, Princeton, Penn etc...

I agree with you. We don't need any more roadblocks/humps to that. xsmhx


The Ivies don't pay their coaches millions and attendance levels do not apply (and Yale, for one, doesn't have much of a message board). The Ivy teams have very successfully, for 60 years now, proven that they are not going to over emphasize football.

A little additional emphasis to put football in line with how other sports are treated will not end the world as we know it. Let me put it this way. I don't want football discriminated against just because it's football.

Most schools over-emphasized football throughout the years than other athletic programs (read: FBS schools who want to separate from the rest of the NCAA for their own intents.) The Ivies don't want to meddle in their mess.

[UAalum72]

This has been one fascinating read. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Penn was not forced to give up their aspirations for big time football after World War II. Would the rest of the ancient 8 followed suit and playing teams in the B1G on a regular basis? I could see a game between Harvard and Michigan or Yale and Ohio State or even Notre Dame and Princeton being a major TV draw in today's marketplace.
In the last four years before the Ivy League formed (1956), Penn went 7-26-3. During 1954-55 they were 0-18 and outscored 578-107. The crowds of "70,000" in the 1940s were dwindling, and football profits that had been an important part of the overall university budget was about to become a drain. I think the only 'force' against their aspirations were economic.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It really feels sometimes like some of the posters here live inside a bubble. Football doesn't even crack the top 40 list of priorities of most Ivy presidents. And honestly, it shouldn't.


I don't want football to crack the top 40. I just want the football team to be treated like all the other Ivy sports teams. The first step is an 11th game.


But it's not like every other sport. Other sports don't have message boards (not big ones, anyway.) Other sports don't pay their coaches millions. No other sport has split Division I into two tiers based on scholarship support and attendance levels. The only other sport that comes close is basketball.

Here's where the hypocrisy kicks in.

If the IL presidents feel that football is really not an important part of the undergrad experience, why won't they compete in D-III for all sports?

... Because they like to rub elbows in basketball, lacrosse, wrestling, crew, etc. with teams like Northwestern, Stanford, and yes, Ohio State and Minnesota. And occasionally, Army in football, too.

Nobody's saying that the IL should make football revenue generation Priority One. They'd simply like them to pay some attention towards bringing IL football into the 21st century. And to treat them no different than they would basketball, lacrosse, or wrestling.

When I think "bubble", I think the IL presidents, not the FCS posters here.

[Babar]

Here's where the hypocrisy kicks in.

If the IL presidents feel that football is really not an important part of the undergrad experience, why won't they compete in D-III for all sports?

... Because they like to rub elbows in basketball, lacrosse, wrestling, crew, etc. with teams like Northwestern, Stanford, and yes, Ohio State and Minnesota. And occasionally, Army in football, too.

Nobody's saying that the IL should make football revenue generation Priority One. They'd simply like them to pay some attention towards bringing IL football into the 21st century. And to treat them no different than they would basketball, lacrosse, or wrestling.

When I think "bubble", I think the IL presidents, not the FCS posters here.

Well, it's easy to overestimate the extent to which "rubbing elbows" is facilitated by sports. Faculty and non athletes aren't traveling with our teams. The athletes themselves have a little bit of incidental contact with athletes from other schools. I don't think those interactions justify or drive our athletic program. There are scores, even hundreds, of venues for students and faculty and administrators to meet. Sports are extremely low on that list, and not just for the Ivies. There are faculty leaders at FBS powerhouses who could not name all the schools in their conferences.

The "why do you treat football differently" argument could be applied to every FCS school. Lehigh wrestles against Iowa and Oklahoma--why don't you play them in football? Why do you discriminate against football by not allowing them to play at the highest level? You have the money to do it.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The Ivy's have every ingredient necessary to be just as big in football as any team you can name. Certainly money isn't an issue.

The issue is the takeover of the Ivy's by the Counterculture Radicals who emerged in the 1960s and became the establishment in Academia, Media, Entertainment, and government Civil Service. The Hippies always hated American football because they don't like the notion of physical supremacy, violence, and strategy determining the outcome of an event. It's that generation who got the (soccer) ball rolling to divert their children from participating in a "barbaric" American sport like football.

Two generations of pussies later, soccer is flourishing, football participation is way down and the Academic Establishment has used their NCAA to make football the money machine which funds their Title IX and other similar notions of "social justice" (leftist code for taking the earnings of one and giving them to those don't earn).

The Ivy's empoy Terrorists, Hate Mongers, Maoists, and Stalinists as professors and apparently elect incompetent buffoons to lead student organizations.

I'll stop before I say what I really feel.

[Babar]

The Ivy's have every ingredient necessary to be just as big in football as any team you can name. Certainly money isn't an issue.

The issue is the takeover of the Ivy's by the Counterculture Radicals who emerged in the 1960s and became the establishment in Academia, Media, Entertainment, and government Civil Service. The Hippies always hated American football because they don't like the notion of physical supremacy, violence, and strategy determining the outcome of an event. It's that generation who got the (soccer) ball rolling to divert their children from participating in a "barbaric" American sport like football.

Two generations of pussies later, soccer is flourishing, football participation is way down and the Academic Establishment has used their NCAA to make football the money machine which funds their Title IX and other similar notions of "social justice" (leftist code for taking the earnings of one and giving them to those don't earn).

The Ivy's empoy Terrorists, Hate Mongers, Maoists, and Stalinists as professors and apparently elect incompetent buffoons to lead student organizations.

I'll stop before I say what I really feel.

I think your critique would be more powerful if it were more nuanced, and considered the IL as a group with many different departments and ideologies, rather than a monolith that has operated according to a simple script for half a century. It would be pretty easy to generate a list of prominent conservatives and conservative strains of thought--nationalist, libertarian, socially conservative, and everything in between--that have come out of the IL in the same period.

It would also be pretty easy to trace the ideological roots of today's neocons and libertarians to the 1960's, and to show that modern "conservatism" is a strange hybrid that hasn't existed historically.

But maybe you're right, and we're just soccer-loving leftover hippies. If that's true, though, why do you want us in your playoffs?

[DFW HOYA]

The issue is the takeover of the Ivy's by the Counterculture Radicals who emerged in the 1960s and became the establishment in Academia, Media, Entertainment, and government Civil Service. The Hippies always hated American football because they don't like the notion of physical supremacy, violence, and strategy determining the outcome of an event. It's that generation who got the (soccer) ball rolling to divert their children from participating in a "barbaric" American sport like football.

The eight men who signed the Ivy Group Agreement could be called many things, but hippies is not one of them. Ranging in age from 52 to 85, none were born in the 20th century and one (Columbia's Nicholas Butler) was a two time candidate for the Republican presidential nomination. Founded in the era of the NCAA Sanity Code, the Ivy Group agreement was an attempt to create eligibility rules in a sport which had skirted them for years. It was not a political document.



Two generations of pussies later, soccer is flourishing, football participation is way down and the Academic Establishment has used their NCAA to make football the money machine which funds their Title IX and other similar notions of "social justice" (leftist code for taking the earnings of one and giving them to those don't earn).

In the first year of Ivy football (1954) there were 624 teams playing NCAA football. In 2012, there were 630.

[dgtw]

In the first year of Ivy football (1954) there were 624 teams playing NCAA football. In 2012, there were 630.

The population in this country has doubled in that time.

[UAalum72]

The population in this country has doubled in that time.
So has the number of players; the NCAA was using one-platoon football until 1964.

[Pard4Life]

The Ivy's have every ingredient necessary to be just as big in football as any team you can name. Certainly money isn't an issue.

The issue is the takeover of the Ivy's by the Counterculture Radicals who emerged in the 1960s and became the establishment in Academia, Media, Entertainment, and government Civil Service. The Hippies always hated American football because they don't like the notion of physical supremacy, violence, and strategy determining the outcome of an event. It's that generation who got the (soccer) ball rolling to divert their children from participating in a "barbaric" American sport like football.

Two generations of pussies later, soccer is flourishing, football participation is way down and the Academic Establishment has used their NCAA to make football the money machine which funds their Title IX and other similar notions of "social justice" (leftist code for taking the earnings of one and giving them to those don't earn).

The Ivy's empoy Terrorists, Hate Mongers, Maoists, and Stalinists as professors and apparently elect incompetent buffoons to lead student organizations.

I'll stop before I say what I really feel.

I guess somebody likes to watch FOX News 24/7!! xlolx xblahx xcrazyx Are you a contributor to Sarah PAC? Tea Party Express? xlmaox

[Pard4Life]

The eight men who signed the Ivy Group Agreement could be called many things, but hippies is not one of them. Ranging in age from 52 to 85, none were born in the 20th century and one (Columbia's Nicholas Butler) was a two time candidate for the Republican presidential nomination. Founded in the era of the NCAA Sanity Code, the Ivy Group agreement was an attempt to create eligibility rules in a sport which had skirted them for years. It was not a political document.



In the first year of Ivy football (1954) there were 624 teams playing NCAA football. In 2012, there were 630.

DFW, it is not wise to argue with a fool when he has a preconceived notion of how the world works, and fits the evidence around them into a preconceived notion.

Also, the Ivy's de-emphasis of football has much to do with the increasing scandals and big business that college football was becoming at the time. The University of Chicago is a prime example... the schools were very concerned about where the game was taking them. They did not want to ban the sport, but instead form partnerships with like-minded schools and create uniform standards etc. Some schools continued to play 'big football' i.e. very competitive teams into the 1960s and 70s. Yale's 1968 team (which I saw in that H-Y documentary) was amazingly good... QB of Doonesbury fame was pretty incredible, looking at the tape...

[Pard4Life]

It really feels sometimes like some of the posters here live inside a bubble. Football doesn't even crack the top 40 list of priorities of most Ivy presidents. And honestly, it shouldn't.

But if you are from the south, it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Yee-haw...

[Pard4Life]

This has been one fascinating read. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Penn was not forced to give up their aspirations for big time football after World War II. Would the rest of the ancient 8 followed suit and playing teams in the B1G on a regular basis? I could see a game between Harvard and Michigan or Yale and Ohio State or even Notre Dame and Princeton being a major TV draw in today's marketplace.

Yes, those would be pretty huge TV coups... but not with today's rosters. It would be a bloodbath. But Yale-Notre Dame, or Harvard-Michigan, would be quite something to see. Penn played a crazy schedule... I remember looking at their media guide and a schedule for like, 1950, being a killer even today... Ohio State, Georgia, Cal, Michigan, UNC. With a 65,000 seat stadium in a major city, teams wanted to travel there.

Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth were also top teams and could have continued playing major football... and, Army and Navy were considered Ivies at the time too. But, they made their choice.

[DFW HOYA]

Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth were also top teams and could have continued playing major football... and, Army and Navy were considered Ivies at the time too. But, they made their choice.

And yet, there is Stanford. They won't win every year and might not make the Rose Bowl for a decade or more, but they can compete among the very best with the highest admissions (and graduation) standards in the nation. If the Ivies were to ever make a similar commitment, the results would be transformaive.

[WestCoastAggie]

Yes, those would be pretty huge TV coups... but not with today's rosters. It would be a bloodbath. But Yale-Notre Dame, or Harvard-Michigan, would be quite something to see. Penn played a crazy schedule... I remember looking at their media guide and a schedule for like, 1950, being a killer even today... Ohio State, Georgia, Cal, Michigan, UNC. With a 65,000 seat stadium in a major city, teams wanted to travel there.

Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth were also top teams and could have continued playing major football... and, Army and Navy were considered Ivies at the time too. But, they made their choice.

I should've emphasized imagining seeing those match-ups under the implication that the Ivy League would be recruiting many ESPN 100 Athletes and be considered a major athletic conference in our present day.

When I was researching College Football and its relationship with TV, Penn was really ahead of its time to me with the way they were emphasizing television spreading their brand locally and nationally. Along the lines of what DFW Hoya said about Stanford -- The Ivy League could've been a leader in college athletics just as they are considered leaders in academia with just a bit more foresight and appreciation of the potential of major college sports at the time. Just from looking at stadium sizes at many Ivy League schools, there had to be serious considerations to be major competitors at the highest level of college football.

[Laker]

I don't think that anyone has been talking about a lowering of academic standards at Northwestern since they have pumped up the program. 34 straight losses back during the regime of Denny "Take a knee" Green was too big of an embarrassment for the school. Now they have been very competitive in football. If they could just get their basketball team to the NCAA for the first time.........

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, it's easy to overestimate the extent to which "rubbing elbows" is facilitated by sports. Faculty and non athletes aren't traveling with our teams. The athletes themselves have a little bit of incidental contact with athletes from other schools. I don't think those interactions justify or drive our athletic program. There are scores, even hundreds, of venues for students and faculty and administrators to meet. Sports are extremely low on that list, and not just for the Ivies. There are faculty leaders at FBS powerhouses who could not name all the schools in their conferences.

If they don't, why are they competing in intercollegiate sports?


The "why do you treat football differently" argument could be applied to every FCS school. Lehigh wrestles against Iowa and Oklahoma--why don't you play them in football? Why do you discriminate against football by not allowing them to play at the highest level? You have the money to do it.

I'm at a loss as to how an FCS school can be charged as "discriminating against football" when any FCS school is allowed to play any FBS school. Lehigh has a better chance to play FBS teams with merit-based aid because they are likely to be close to the PL limit of 60 so games against them will be bowl counters, but the truth is there are no restrictions. If Lehigh and Oklahoma want to play a football game, they can. Lehigh's been trying to get another game with Army now for more than a decade. Any "discrimination" sure isn't coming from Lehigh.

But the IL presidents are discriminating - against FCS football. They perceive FCS football as "inferior", and thus choose to pretend they're not actually in FCS with the rest of the subdivision. How? By preventing their teams for playing for the same national championship goal as Lehigh. How is this justified? By bringing up arcane, illogical, completely irrelevant reasons that they don't even apply to all their other intercollegiate sports. Literally every other Ivy sport can play at the highest level of NCAA-sanctioned championship, in sports where the NCAA sponsors a championship. FCS is the highest level of NCAA-sanctioned football championship, but it's the only sport where the arcane rules are brought up as a reason to refuse participation. Discrimination.

And this is why when "Harris says she does not think participation in the FCS playoffs would attract the interest of fans of the Ancient Eight," it puts people up in arms - because it seems like the people running the show take this opinion to justify their discrimination, even when almost all the coaches, fans and players think otherwise.

[bonarae]

I should've emphasized imagining seeing those match-ups under the implication that the Ivy League would be recruiting many ESPN 100 Athletes and be considered a major athletic conference in our present day.

When I was researching College Football and its relationship with TV, Penn was really ahead of its time to me with the way they were emphasizing television spreading their brand locally and nationally. Along the lines of what DFW Hoya said about Stanford -- The Ivy League could've been a leader in college athletics just as they are considered leaders in academia with just a bit more foresight and appreciation of the potential of major college sports at the time. Just from looking at stadium sizes at many Ivy League schools, there had to be serious considerations to be major competitors at the highest level of college football.

This has a point.


If they don't, why are they competing in intercollegiate sports?

I'm at a loss as to how an FCS school can be charged as "discriminating against football" when any FCS school is allowed to play any FBS school. Lehigh has a better chance to play FBS teams with merit-based aid because they are likely to be close to the PL limit of 60 so games against them will be bowl counters, but the truth is there are no restrictions. If Lehigh and Oklahoma want to play a football game, they can. Lehigh's been trying to get another game with Army now for more than a decade. Any "discrimination" sure isn't coming from Lehigh.

But the IL presidents are discriminating - against FCS football. They perceive FCS football as "inferior", and thus choose to pretend they're not actually in FCS with the rest of the subdivision. How? By preventing their teams for playing for the same national championship goal as Lehigh. How is this justified? By bringing up arcane, illogical, completely irrelevant reasons that they don't even apply to all their other intercollegiate sports. Literally every other Ivy sport can play at the highest level of NCAA-sanctioned championship, in sports where the NCAA sponsors a championship. FCS is the highest level of NCAA-sanctioned football championship, but it's the only sport where the arcane rules are brought up as a reason to refuse participation. Discrimination.

And this is why when "Harris says she does not think participation in the FCS playoffs would attract the interest of fans of the Ancient Eight," it puts people up in arms - because it seems like the people running the show take this opinion to justify their discrimination, even when almost all the coaches, fans and players think otherwise.

But... I'm also at a loss. The Presidents' point of view is way too complicated for us to comprehend, even in simple terms. xsmhx

[bonarae]

To add to the Ivy presidents against the postseason in football discussion, let's think about the rest of the college football world. Since the Ivies de-emphasized football, virtually all of the winners in all four NCAA divisions/subdivisions throughout the years come from the Midwest (e.g. Grand Valley State in D2 and Mount Union/Wisconsin-Whitewater in D3), the South (e.g. Alabama in the FBS) or the West (e.g. our very own Montana). What's up with the Northeast, you may be curious about it. The Northeast-based universities tend to focus on other, lesser-known sports elsewhere (e.g. rowing, lacrosse, ice hockey) and the prep programs in that region (especially in the public schools) tend not to produce Division I-caliber athletes (most of the Division I-caliber athletes from Northeast public prep programs that I am familiar with are in men's basketball.) And also, most of the football programs that were discontinued from the past 20-25 years were located in the Northeast or in the West. There's simply not much support for football in that region (exceptions are the state universities in that region that compete in the FBS/FCS level, and some private universities that compete in the FBS/FCS level).

[DFW HOYA]

Really? Those national champions at Penn State, Delaware, Lehigh, Villanova, et al might beg to differ.

[Babar]

If they don't, why are they competing in intercollegiate sports?



B/C sports are inherently worthwhile educationally.

You don't seriously think Shirley Tilghman was chatting up Gordon Gee and discussing educational policy or joint grant proposals at our fencing finals? Surely you don't think that?




I'm at a loss as to how an FCS school can be charged as "discriminating against football" when any FCS school is allowed to play any FBS school. Lehigh has a better chance to play FBS teams with merit-based aid because they are likely to be close to the PL limit of 60 so games against them will be bowl counters, but the truth is there are no restrictions. If Lehigh and Oklahoma want to play a football game, they can. Lehigh's been trying to get another game with Army now for more than a decade. Any "discrimination" sure isn't coming from Lehigh.



Oh, because your admin's been looking for games against FBS powers? OU had to find an FCS school to fill a sudden hole just last year, and I didn't see Lehigh raising their hands. You could play Penn State and Ohio State, but you don't. Because your program looks too different and it would be ridiculous to measure Lehigh, which just got scholarships, against schools that consider a six-player draft a disappointment.

Wanting to play Army makes perfect sense because your programs have some things in common. You're completely reasonable to seek games that are actually competitive.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You don't seriously think Shirley Tilghman was chatting up Gordon Gee and discussing educational policy or joint grant proposals at our fencing finals? Surely you don't think that?

No, but if you think Ms. Tilghman feels there's little or no value to sitting in the same box as Mr. Gee, you're mistaken.

[Ivytalk]

You don't seriously think Shirley Tilghman was chatting up Gordon Gee and discussing educational policy or joint grant proposals at our fencing finals? Surely you don't think that?

And don't call me Shirley!xsmiley_wix

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To add to the Ivy presidents against the postseason in football discussion, let's think about the rest of the college football world. Since the Ivies de-emphasized football, virtually all of the winners in all four NCAA divisions/subdivisions throughout the years come from the Midwest (e.g. Grand Valley State in D2 and Mount Union/Wisconsin-Whitewater in D3), the South (e.g. Alabama in the FBS) or the West (e.g. our very own Montana). What's up with the Northeast, you may be curious about it. The Northeast-based universities tend to focus on other, lesser-known sports elsewhere (e.g. rowing, lacrosse, ice hockey) and the prep programs in that region (especially in the public schools) tend not to produce Division I-caliber athletes (most of the Division I-caliber athletes from Northeast public prep programs that I am familiar with are in men's basketball.) And also, most of the football programs that were discontinued from the past 20-25 years were located in the Northeast or in the West. There's simply not much support for football in that region (exceptions are the state universities in that region that compete in the FBS/FCS level, and some private universities that compete in the FBS/FCS level).


Really? Those national champions at Penn State, Delaware, Lehigh, Villanova, et al might beg to differ.

DFW, you could also include Richmond in your list.

Additionally, here in Pennsylvania there's is a serious pipeline of strong D-I players of both the FCS and FBS variety. Just recently one of the local HS players from Wyomissing committed to Florida. NY, NJ and CT also routinely have a decent number of big prospects that come out... that head to Florida, Penn State, Notre Dame, Rutgers, etc. I don't think that part of the argument holds water, either.

[Babar]

No, but if you think Ms. Tilghman feels there's little or no value to sitting in the same box as Mr. Gee, you're mistaken.

Even this overstates the case. Our faculty and our president aren't following teams to tourneys. They're literally not even crossing paths with other faculty or administrators at sporting venues.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Even this overstates the case. Our faculty and our president aren't following teams to tourneys. They're literally not even crossing paths with other faculty or administrators at sporting venues.

I can buy your argument with the faculty - after all, it's a choice for them - but I do not in regards to the presidents, who do pal around and talk shop when engaged in activities other than business. Would it be overstating the case is Ms. Tilghman were playing 18 holes of golf with Mr. Gee instead of sitting in the same box for the fencing finals?

[PAllen]

The great brand of the Ivy's is exactly why they won't compete in playoffs or schedule anyone outside the northeast. The Ivy's would be just like the Patriot and MEAC in most years. If you were Harvard, would you want to get your ass kicked by UT-Martin?

When I see an academic publication from an Ivy, I read it as if it were written by a special ed. student. Those institutions have ventured so far to the Left in their worldview that it's common to see research based on ideological assumptions that are beyond flawed. Right now, sportswriters routinely "rank" Ivy's higher than they deserve when they probably shouldn't crack the Top 40 much less the Top 25. Why would the Ivy's risk losing the deferential treatment by actually working for their reputation. They're overrated, not stupid.

You're pretty close to dead on with this. What does any Ivy League school gain by having their football team sent to North Dakota State to lose (or even win for that matter) a first round playoff game. It won't enhance Harvard's reputation to play fill in the blank directional state university. As far as recruiting goes, please. If you've got an offer from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Penn and are considering it against an offer from just about anybody shy of a BIG 10 or SEC school, then you're going Ivy. Now with the Patriot offering scholarships, we may have a play in those folks, but let's not kid ourselves. Kids who are seriously considering the Appalacian State's of the world are not the same kids that are looking at the Ivy League. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, there is plenty wrong with some of the Ivy League programs (academic and athletic), but the Ivy League does not need to play outside of the Northeast in order to grow a national reputation and seek more applicants.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You're pretty close to dead on with this. What does any Ivy League school gain by having their football team sent to North Dakota State to lose (or even win for that matter) a first round playoff game. It won't enhance Harvard's reputation to play fill in the blank directional state university.

You could use this logic to justify Harvard downgrading all their sports to D-III. Why play Florida-Gulf Coast in the NCAA men's basketball tournament if it "doesn't enhance Harvard's reputation"?

The answer is: of course it does. At some level the IL presidents have decided that intercollegiate sports "enhance" their institutions, regardless of whom they draw in the NCAA tournament. Except for FCS football. Where they unfairly discriminate.

[PAllen]

You could use this logic to justify Harvard downgrading all their sports to D-III. Why play Florida-Gulf Coast in the NCAA men's basketball tournament if it "doesn't enhance Harvard's reputation"?

The answer is: of course it does. At some level the IL presidents have decided that intercollegiate sports "enhance" their institutions, regardless of whom they draw in the NCAA tournament. Except for FCS football. Where they unfairly discriminate.

So by that logic, because they're not competing for an Orange Bowl berth, they should just downgrade their program to D-III?

[bisonnation]

Ivy League schools annoy me because they have some really strong names, traditions, and facilities but they rarely play the rest of the FCS. Its like they are not part of the FCS. I know as an NDSU fan, I would LOVE toplay Yale or Harvard! It would boost the profile of the FCS and considering were losing teams, the IVY league teams would provide a nice shot in the arm. They are interesting.

[DFW HOYA]

You could use this logic to justify Harvard downgrading all their sports to D-III. Why play Florida-Gulf Coast in the NCAA men's basketball tournament if it "doesn't enhance Harvard's reputation"?

The divisional alignments were not based on competition but depth of sports participation. With 43 sports and a budget of $20 million, Harvard would be a poor fit amidst regional D-III schools like Becker, Curry, and Framingham State.

[bonarae]

Ivy League schools annoy me because they have some really strong names, traditions, and facilities but they rarely play the rest of the FCS. Its like they are not part of the FCS. I know as an NDSU fan, I would LOVE toplay Yale or Harvard! It would boost the profile of the FCS and considering were losing teams, the IVY league teams would provide a nice shot in the arm. They are interesting.

The Presidents have annoyed all of us Ivy League fans for a very long time... xbawlingx

[Sader87]

The Ivies have the $$$ and prestige that most FBS programs would kill for....the problem is that no one cares that much about college football in just about all of the Ivy League markets in 2013. It's not 1933, 1953 or 1973 anymore.....

[bonarae]

The Ivies have the $$$ and prestige that most FBS programs would kill for....the problem is that no one cares that much about college football in just about all of the Ivy League markets in 2013. It's not 1933, 1953 or 1973 anymore.....

This.

[bonarae]

The Ivies have the $$$ and prestige that most FBS programs would kill for....the problem is that no one cares that much about college football in just about all of the Ivy League markets in 2013. It's not 1933, 1953 or 1973 anymore.....

This.

[Laker]

It's not 1973 anymore.....

Thank goodness!
17775

[Go Green]

I go on vacation for a golf weekend and everyone's talking Ivy League Football without me!!! xconfusedx

Most of the relevant points have already been said. I'll add these two for everyone to ponder:

1) When the IL office says that they think that playoffs will detract from our unique end of the year rivarly games, they're really talking about the Harvard-Yale game. Heaven forbid that Penn-Cornell, Dartmouth-Princeton, or *gasp* Brown-Columbia feature two top teams with an FCS berth on the line because that might detract from the mystique of "The Game" (even if H-Y are lousy that year--which does happen once in a long while).

2) A lot of the same "tradition" arguments are used to justify our lack of a conference basketball tournament. From what I understand, it takes five Ivy presidents to agree on a change. I've long suspected Harvard/Yale (where the opposition is strongest to FCS playoffs) and Princeton/Penn (where opposition is strongest to conference tournament) have the proverbial "gentleman's agreement" not to make ANY changes because then nobody would get upset. Meanwhile, the rest of us can only just sit there and watch the rest of you having fun while we sit on our asses at home... xblehx