Patriot League Expansion: The Realistic Scenario

[DFW HOYA]

In an attempt to put the Villanova thread out of its misery, a few thoughts on realistic expansion in the Patriot League.

Realignment scenarios are fine for message boards but there is a syllogism that brings this discussion to a grinding halt:

1. Those that are interested aren't wanted by the league, and
2. Those that are wanted by the league aren't interested.

Over the years, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist all had some interest. "No need", said the league. And over the years, the PL has fancied the likes of W&M, Villanova, and Richmond, "No thanks", they said.

But the PL is growing, only outside football. Adding Boston University and Loyola was a moderate step for the PL, along the lines of American a decade earlier. These are two schools with one marquee sport (BU hockey, LU lacrosse), but no driving ambition to become nationally prominent in other sports, and are unlikely to look anywhere beyond the PL in years to come. Conference commissioners get nervous about schools who are using their league as a parking lot for the next big offer.

The PL is likely to move to 12 schools but there are next to no football schools willing to commit to the PL in all sports against the perception that it is a step down. Some combination of Fairfield, LaSalle, Quinnipiac, and Rider are probably thinking about whether they would consider if asked. Fairfield isn't Yale and Rider isn't Princeton, but there aren't a lot of schools of that caliber in the mix. Yes, maybe Fordham could be an all-sports member again, but that's as likely as Boston University bringing back football.

Football expansion in the PL will only come when there is a clear and present danger, namely:

1. Fordham sets its sight for the CAA;
2. Georgetown becomes noncompetitve and looks for another scheduling arrangement; or
3. The ever changing A-10 considers Holy Cross or Lehigh as a possible full sport member.

Until then, the CAA schools aren't interested, the NEC schools aren't welcome, and the Ivy isn't taking on boarders. So is it time to put the expansion talk off for a while?

[Babar]

In an attempt to put the Villanova thread out of its misery, a few thoughts on realistic expansion in the Patriot League.

....

... So is it time to put the expansion talk off for a while?

I don't have a vote, but if I did, I would vote yes, it's that time.

[Engineer86]

Other than my view that BU does also add to Basketball. I can't disagree with your points on the mismatch on the PL desires/fits/needs versus those with interests. It will take a football loss in the PL to make it important enough to reach for an addition or a major CAA shakeup to make it worth it. Until that point, why bother, let this topic die.

[Pard4Life]

Why are we even talking about this? Dead.

xbangx xshakefistx xnutsx xsplatx

[Sader87]

I never really saw the need to expand (in football)....I'm not thrilled with our schedule next year but in general I like just the 6 PL games, gives one the flexibility to also play 3 Ivies (usually Harvard, Dartmouth and Brown), a CAA-type school (UMass, UNH, Delaware) and hopefully an FBS school every year.

I do think Villanova will join the PL in football at some point soon though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In an attempt to put the Villanova thread out of its misery, a few thoughts on realistic expansion in the Patriot League.

Realignment scenarios are fine for message boards but there is a syllogism that brings this discussion to a grinding halt:

1. Those that are interested aren't wanted by the league, and
2. Those that are wanted by the league aren't interested.

Over the years, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist all had some interest. "No need", said the league. And over the years, the PL has fancied the likes of W&M, Villanova, and Richmond, "No thanks", they said.

But the PL is growing, only outside football. Adding Boston University and Loyola was a moderate step for the PL, along the lines of American a decade earlier. These are two schools with one marquee sport (BU hockey, LU lacrosse), but no driving ambition to become nationally prominent in other sports, and are unlikely to look anywhere beyond the PL in years to come. Conference commissioners get nervous about schools who are using their league as a parking lot for the next big offer.

The PL is likely to move to 12 schools but there are next to no football schools willing to commit to the PL in all sports against the perception that it is a step down. Some combination of Fairfield, LaSalle, Quinnipiac, and Rider are probably thinking about whether they would consider if asked. Fairfield isn't Yale and Rider isn't Princeton, but there aren't a lot of schools of that caliber in the mix. Yes, maybe Fordham could be an all-sports member again, but that's as likely as Boston University bringing back football.

Football expansion in the PL will only come when there is a clear and present danger, namely:

1. Fordham sets its sight for the CAA;
2. Georgetown becomes noncompetitve and looks for another scheduling arrangement; or
3. The ever changing A-10 considers Holy Cross or Lehigh as a possible full sport member.

Until then, the CAA schools aren't interested, the NEC schools aren't welcome, and the Ivy isn't taking on boarders. So is it time to put the expansion talk off for a while?

Some thoughts:

1. Interesting that BU's marquee sport is a sport that isn't sponsored by the League.

2. "Over the years, the PL has fancied the likes of W&M, Villanova, and Richmond, 'No thanks', they said." W&M turned the PL down in 1986 and it seems like nobody has ever gotten over it. But Nova and Richmond were always considered football-only additions and as a result will always going to be of limited use for league stability. So let's say the PL shot the moon and got Villanova to join in 2010. They'd have had 8 football-playing teams and the same number of everything else. How, exactly, does that help the overall league? Certainly not as much as Loyola or BU did in all sports.

3. The only way Nova, W&M or Villanova would ever have been available to the PL was if the CAA completely imploded - something that was a real possibility until recently, when Elon decided to jump the SoCon. Is the CAA totally out of the woods? It's hard to say. Maybe JMU decides to go to C-USA next month, or next year. Maybe Delaware makes motions that they are interested in FBS. Then what?

4. 'Over the years, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist all had some interest. "No need", said the league.' I think what you meant is, "We're too good for you, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist," which IMO is the single most self-destructive impulse of the presidents running the League. Not that it should be a club just anyone can join (and in the case of Hofstra and Northeastern, and the way Stu and Aoun treated their football programs, I'm thankful they didn't join), but there has to be a place for the type of school that is "good FCS-level athletics, building super-strong academics" that can grow into the role.

ODU didn't start as a football+basketball powerhouse when they joined the CAA: in 1991, when they joined, they were a regional basketball mid-major player with regional aspirations in Virginia. If the CAA had said "sorry, you can only join if your enrollment is X and you have a football program and you can guarantee X NCAA tournament bids", the CAA would have been worse off. There is value to taking on a school that is growing into a role.

5. The problem with "no football schools willing to commit" is not unique to the PL. The problem is the moratorium on D-II, D-III, and NAIA move-ups to Division I, and the requirement that schools need to spend time in every division before getting to D-I, effectively making it impossible for the PL "academic dream team" to join the D-I ranks. This wouldn't just help the PL, but all conferences looking for, say the North Alabama's to replace the Appalachian State's.

It's pretty telling that Elon's move to the CAA is bringing whoops of joy from some CAA fans now, when, say, had it been announced a year ago the same move might have been seen very, very differently. Not a lot is being said in regards that Elon as an institution is nothing like any other school in the CAA, and hasn't even been all that successful overall athletically. Just the fact that they're a living, breathing school that sponsors FCS football seems to be enough for happiness.

6. If the NCAA lifted the moratorium tomorrow, combined with the addition of a requirement that all sports need to be in a consistent division, you'd immediately see Johns Hopkins and RPI apply for PL membership that afternoon (and perhaps more), with all the PL fans cheering them on.

7. The PL's MO has always been to only act when there's a clear and present danger (HC and Army threatening to bolt unless hoops schollies enacted, Fordham daring league to offer football schollies) or when schools approach them with great offers (BU leaving AE, Loyola leaving MAAC).

[Fordham]

Football expansion in the PL will only come when there is a clear and present danger, namely:

1. Fordham sets its sight for the CAA;
2. Georgetown becomes noncompetitve and looks for another scheduling arrangement; or
3. The ever changing A-10 considers Holy Cross or Lehigh as a possible full sport member.

Until then, the CAA schools aren't interested, the NEC schools aren't welcome, and the Ivy isn't taking on boarders. So is it time to put the expansion talk off for a while?
Why do you continue bringing this up as if there's a snowball's chance? A PL with schollies was our number one choice and we got a PL with schollies. Case closed

[van]

I agree with Hoyas premise that football expansion will only become a hot issue if there is a "clear and present danger" or a Nova, Richmond or W&M suddenly wish to join for some unforeseen reason. Hard to see any either of these events in the near future.

We need a new PL topic to snipe. Maybe "how does Colgate keep getting FBS games?"

[ccd494]

6. If the NCAA lifted the moratorium tomorrow, combined with the addition of a requirement that all sports need to be in a consistent division, you'd immediately see Johns Hopkins and RPI apply for PL membership that afternoon (and perhaps more), with all the PL fans cheering them on.

Man would that be a mess. Would they add a D-II hockey, or make those D-II's move up?

You PL guys would have an embarrassment of riches to discuss: JHU, RPI, Union, Clarkson, St. Lawrence, Hartwick (are they still D-I soccer?), Rochester Tech. Of course, those schools minus JHU could just band together and steal Colgate and Holy Cross from you.

The north central area would be thrown into turmoil: Mercyhurst (Western PA), Northern Michigan, Lake Superior State, Michigan Tech, Ferris State (Michigan), St. Cloud State, Minnesota State, Bemidji State (Minnesota).

The western anomalies: Alaska, Alaska-Anchorage, Colorado College.

New England misfits: American International, Bentley, Merrimack; then the "play downs": St. Anselm, Franklin Pierce, Stonehill, Southern New Hampshire, Assumption.

And our old southern friend Alabama-Huntsville.

[MplsBison]

Which is why it's silly to even think of that, for sports that just don't matter in the grand scheme.

If you want to play football in DI, you have to play basketball in DI. If you want to play basketball in DI, then you have to play all sports in DI.

End.


That's plenty good enough for the only two sports that ultimately matter.

[Go...gate]

I agree with Hoyas premise that football expansion will only become a hot issue if there is a "clear and present danger" or a Nova, Richmond or W&M suddenly wish to join for some unforeseen reason. Hard to see any either of these events in the near future.

We need a new PL topic to snipe. Maybe "how does Colgate keep getting FBS games?"

Colgate has been playing stretch games for over a century. It is a tradition. We seemed to get away from it for about a decade, but no more.

[Go...gate]

Some thoughts:

1. Interesting that BU's marquee sport is a sport that isn't sponsored by the League.

2. "Over the years, the PL has fancied the likes of W&M, Villanova, and Richmond, 'No thanks', they said." W&M turned the PL down in 1986 and it seems like nobody has ever gotten over it. But Nova and Richmond were always considered football-only additions and as a result will always going to be of limited use for league stability. So let's say the PL shot the moon and got Villanova to join in 2010. They'd have had 8 football-playing teams and the same number of everything else. How, exactly, does that help the overall league? Certainly not as much as Loyola or BU did in all sports.

3. The only way Nova, W&M or Villanova would ever have been available to the PL was if the CAA completely imploded - something that was a real possibility until recently, when Elon decided to jump the SoCon. Is the CAA totally out of the woods? It's hard to say. Maybe JMU decides to go to C-USA next month, or next year. Maybe Delaware makes motions that they are interested in FBS. Then what?

4. 'Over the years, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist all had some interest. "No need", said the league.' I think what you meant is, "We're too good for you, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist," which IMO is the single most self-destructive impulse of the presidents running the League. Not that it should be a club just anyone can join (and in the case of Hofstra and Northeastern, and the way Stu and Aoun treated their football programs, I'm thankful they didn't join), but there has to be a place for the type of school that is "good FCS-level athletics, building super-strong academics" that can grow into the role.

ODU didn't start as a football+basketball powerhouse when they joined the CAA: in 1991, when they joined, they were a regional basketball mid-major player with regional aspirations in Virginia. If the CAA had said "sorry, you can only join if your enrollment is X and you have a football program and you can guarantee X NCAA tournament bids", the CAA would have been worse off. There is value to taking on a school that is growing into a role.

5. The problem with "no football schools willing to commit" is not unique to the PL. The problem is the moratorium on D-II, D-III, and NAIA move-ups to Division I, and the requirement that schools need to spend time in every division before getting to D-I, effectively making it impossible for the PL "academic dream team" to join the D-I ranks. This wouldn't just help the PL, but all conferences looking for, say the North Alabama's to replace the Appalachian State's.

It's pretty telling that Elon's move to the CAA is bringing whoops of joy from some CAA fans now, when, say, had it been announced a year ago the same move might have been seen very, very differently. Not a lot is being said in regards that Elon as an institution is nothing like any other school in the CAA, and hasn't even been all that successful overall athletically. Just the fact that they're a living, breathing school that sponsors FCS football seems to be enough for happiness.

6. If the NCAA lifted the moratorium tomorrow, combined with the addition of a requirement that all sports need to be in a consistent division, you'd immediately see Johns Hopkins and RPI apply for PL membership that afternoon (and perhaps more), with all the PL fans cheering them on.

7. The PL's MO has always been to only act when there's a clear and present danger (HC and Army threatening to bolt unless hoops schollies enacted, Fordham daring league to offer football schollies) or when schools approach them with great offers (BU leaving AE, Loyola leaving MAAC).

LFN, did Loyola really knock on the PL door?

[Bogus Megapardus]

scheduling arrangement

You appear to have much more inside information than most, DFW. But I imagine that one factor could be that the Patriot League would prefer to view itself as just that - a league - and not just a "scheduling arrangement" for institutions who otherwise do little to disguise their condescension (or at best indifference) towards their association.

[bison137]

Other than my view that BU does also add to Basketball. I can't disagree with your points on the mismatch on the PL desires/fits/needs versus those with interests.


Boston U doesn't have a national sport other than ice hockey, but relative to the PL level it has a lot of strong funded sports. For at least the next few years, it should easily win the Presidents' Cup.

[bison137]

1. Fordham sets its sight for the CAA;
2. Georgetown becomes noncompetitve and looks for another scheduling arrangement; or
3. The ever changing A-10 considers Holy Cross or Lehigh as a possible full sport member.
Until then, the CAA schools aren't interested, the NEC schools aren't welcome, and the Ivy isn't taking on boarders. So is it time to put the expansion talk off for a while?


I think it's unlikely that HC or Lehigh would seriously consider an invitation to what will be left of the A-10.

[Pard4Life]

I think it's unlikely that HC or Lehigh would seriously consider an invitation to what will be left of the A-10.

I could see Lehigh becoming too big for their egos and ultimately thinking they would have a shot at the A-10. They are a large enough institution to hide 'student-in-name-only' basketball players and have a strong funding base to support such a move. They could easily move other sports as well. But ultimately, the cachet and pedigree of the PL resonates much more strongly than the A-10.

[DFW HOYA]

But I imagine that one factor could be that the Patriot League would prefer to view itself as just that - a league - and not just a "scheduling arrangement" for institutions who otherwise do little to disguise their condescension (or at best indifference) towards their association.

Schools which compete in a league or conference to which they are not a full member do so, in some small part, for scheduling purposes--that's not a slight but a statement.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I could see Lehigh becoming too big for their egos and ultimately thinking they would have a shot at the A-10. They are a large enough institution to hide 'student-in-name-only' basketball players and have a strong funding base to support such a move. They could easily move other sports as well. But ultimately, the cachet and pedigree of the PL resonates much more strongly than the A-10.

So, Mr. Bigshot, care to name any 'student-in-name-only' Lehigh basketball players by name?

[Pard4Life]

Some thoughts:

4. 'Over the years, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist all had some interest. "No need", said the league.' I think what you meant is, "We're too good for you, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist," which IMO is the single most self-destructive impulse of the presidents running the League. Not that it should be a club just anyone can join (and in the case of Hofstra and Northeastern, and the way Stu and Aoun treated their football programs, I'm thankful they didn't join), but there has to be a place for the type of school that is "good FCS-level athletics, building super-strong academics" that can grow into the role.

ODU didn't start as a football+basketball powerhouse when they joined the CAA: in 1991, when they joined, they were a regional basketball mid-major player with regional aspirations in Virginia. If the CAA had said "sorry, you can only join if your enrollment is X and you have a football program and you can guarantee X NCAA tournament bids", the CAA would have been worse off. There is value to taking on a school that is growing into a role.


LFN, the PL is a club akin to the Ivy... only their junior. Big 3, Middle 3, Little 3... we are the middle three.


Unfortunately, the PL cannot survive solely on Army, Navy, Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Brown Stain. Their academic experiment that started in the 1980s is a major reason for the current disarray... and this should not be anything new to everyone here. In prior eras, you had Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell sharing league affiliation with LaSalle, Rider, St. Joes, Drexel... athletic competition and 'athletic logic', (i.e. the LFN school of thought), prevailed. Those schools mentioned above would have been fine for PL pre-1986, but no longer.

The PL leadership is slowly recognizing that they cannot survive unless they add "less desirable but they loosely fit" elements and schools growing into a role (I assume academic), like American and Loyola. It is the only reason why American is in the league and why a school like Loyola is even a member (Boston U is like Lehigh... only with more students and grad schools). Survival.

The entire noble athletics ideal died when Holy Cross went scholarship and basketball, but we still pretend to be a valiant league via the Academic Index. W&M, Richmond, and Villanova uphold some form of academic quality on their teams, but they have no illusions on what collegiate sports really are: winning. The Ivy does not red-shirt and has academic bands, but they are in a different universe. Stop trying to mimic the Ivy and our problems become easier to manage.

If PL football somehow crumbles if Georgetown wants to go Pioneer or cancels their program, and Fordham goes elsewhere, the entire notion of the PL existence is in question. Lehigh and Colgate will certainly not axe football... so where would they go? Lehigh's wrestling program operates outside the PL, and football would be the second program. Why not move all sports? Basketball has come into its own (until their coach leaves.. but I digress).

If Army-Navy played PL football, as well as American, we would not be having this conversation and the PL would stay as it is for the next 100 years. After all, we are Ivy Junior...

[Babar]

I mean, we let Penn stick around. Sometimes you have to make the tent big if you want a tent at all.

[MplsBison]

I mean, we let Penn stick around. Sometimes you have to make the tent big if you want a tent at all.

That's what she said?

[PAllen]

...

6. If the NCAA lifted the moratorium tomorrow, combined with the addition of a requirement that all sports need to be in a consistent division, you'd immediately see Johns Hopkins ... apply for PL membership that afternoon (and perhaps more), with all the PL fans cheering them on.


Why?

JHU cares about nothing but Men's Lacrosse and there is now way they'd be interested in joining the PL for MLax. Their football team is a joke and I've seen community churches with bigger gyms to play basketball in. Academically, they're a great fit. Geographically, they're OK. Athletically, not even close.

[PAllen]

I could see Lehigh becoming too big for their egos and ultimately thinking they would have a shot at the A-10. They are a large enough institution to hide 'student-in-name-only' basketball players and have a strong funding base to support such a move. They could easily move other sports as well. But ultimately, the cachet and pedigree of the PL resonates much more strongly than the A-10.

Nah, we're still deciding between those BIG 10 and Ivy League offers that must be stuck in the mail somewhere. :D

[Go...gate]

LFN, the PL is a club akin to the Ivy... only their junior. Big 3, Middle 3, Little 3... we are the middle three.


Unfortunately, the PL cannot survive solely on Army, Navy, Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Brown Stain. Their academic experiment that started in the 1980s is a major reason for the current disarray... and this should not be anything new to everyone here. In prior eras, you had Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell sharing league affiliation with LaSalle, Rider, St. Joes, Drexel... athletic competition and 'athletic logic', (i.e. the LFN school of thought), prevailed. Those schools mentioned above would have been fine for PL pre-1986, but no longer.

The PL leadership is slowly recognizing that they cannot survive unless they add "less desirable but they loosely fit" elements and schools growing into a role (I assume academic), like American and Loyola. It is the only reason why American is in the league and why a school like Loyola is even a member (Boston U is like Lehigh... only with more students and grad schools). Survival.

The entire noble athletics ideal died when Holy Cross went scholarship and basketball, but we still pretend to be a valiant league via the Academic Index. W&M, Richmond, and Villanova uphold some form of academic quality on their teams, but they have no illusions on what collegiate sports really are: winning. The Ivy does not red-shirt and has academic bands, but they are in a different universe. Stop trying to mimic the Ivy and our problems become easier to manage.

If PL football somehow crumbles if Georgetown wants to go Pioneer or cancels their program, and Fordham goes elsewhere, the entire notion of the PL existence is in question. Lehigh and Colgate will certainly not axe football... so where would they go? Lehigh's wrestling program operates outside the PL, and football would be the second program. Why not move all sports? Basketball has come into its own (until their coach leaves.. but I digress).

If Army-Navy played PL football, as well as American, we would not be having this conversation and the PL would stay as it is for the next 100 years. After all, we are Ivy Junior...

I agree with this - no question that BU fits academically - and it is my understanding that the PL accepted AU because AU's long-term strategic plan (I don't know if it is on their web page any more) would bring AU into standing with the rest of the conference. I don't believe any such commitment was extracted from Loyola.

[Go...gate]

LFN, the PL is a club akin to the Ivy... only their junior. Big 3, Middle 3, Little 3... we are the Middle Three.


Unfortunately, the PL cannot survive solely on Army, Navy, Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Brown Stain. Their academic experiment that started in the 1980s is a major reason for the current disarray... and this should not be anything new to everyone here. In prior eras, you had Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell sharing league affiliation with LaSalle, Rider, St. Joes, Drexel... athletic competition and 'athletic logic', (i.e. the LFN school of thought), prevailed. Those schools mentioned above would have been fine for PL pre-1986, but no longer.

The PL leadership is slowly recognizing that they cannot survive unless they add "less desirable but they loosely fit" elements and schools growing into a role (I assume academic), like American and Loyola. It is the only reason why American is in the league and why a school like Loyola is even a member (Boston U is like Lehigh... only with more students and grad schools). Survival.

The entire noble athletics ideal died when Holy Cross went scholarship and basketball, but we still pretend to be a valiant league via the Academic Index. W&M, Richmond, and Villanova uphold some form of academic quality on their teams, but they have no illusions on what collegiate sports really are: winning. The Ivy does not red-shirt and has academic bands, but they are in a different universe. Stop trying to mimic the Ivy and our problems become easier to manage.

If PL football somehow crumbles if Georgetown wants to go Pioneer or cancels their program, and Fordham goes elsewhere, the entire notion of the PL existence is in question. Lehigh and Colgate will certainly not axe football... so where would they go? Lehigh's wrestling program operates outside the PL, and football would be the second program. Why not move all sports? Basketball has come into its own (until their coach leaves.. but I digress).

If Army-Navy played PL football, as well as American, we would not be having this conversation and the PL would stay as it is for the next 100 years. After all, we are Ivy Junior...

I can tell you that right now, there are a LOT of people at Rutgers - though mostly old folks like me - that wish RU had never left its traditional peers, including Lafayette, Lehigh, Princeton, Columbia, Bucknell, Colgate, Army and others. The present "trouble" with the new AD has only made matters worse. But the die is cast.

[DFW HOYA]

JHU cares about nothing but Men's Lacrosse and there is now way they'd be interested in joining the PL for MLax. Their football team is a joke....

JHU football record since 2008:

2008: 8-3
2009: 10-3 (#8)
2010: 8-3
2011: 10-1 (#19)
2012: 10-2 (#20)

[MplsBison]

JHU football record since 2008:

2008: 8-3
2009: 10-3 (#8)
2010: 8-3
2011: 10-1 (#19)
2012: 10-2 (#20)

Doesn't mean you can't make a joke about it. Nobody may laugh...but you can still do it.

[heath]

Some thoughts:

1. Interesting that BU's marquee sport is a sport that isn't sponsored by the League.

2. "Over the years, the PL has fancied the likes of W&M, Villanova, and Richmond, 'No thanks', they said." W&M turned the PL down in 1986 and it seems like nobody has ever gotten over it. But Nova and Richmond were always considered football-only additions and as a result will always going to be of limited use for league stability. So let's say the PL shot the moon and got Villanova to join in 2010. They'd have had 8 football-playing teams and the same number of everything else. How, exactly, does that help the overall league? Certainly not as much as Loyola or BU did in all sports.

3. The only way Nova, W&M or Villanova would ever have been available to the PL was if the CAA completely imploded - something that was a real possibility until recently, when Elon decided to jump the SoCon. Is the CAA totally out of the woods? It's hard to say. Maybe JMU decides to go to C-USA next month, or next year. Maybe Delaware makes motions that they are interested in FBS. Then what?

4. 'Over the years, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist all had some interest. "No need", said the league.' I think what you meant is, "We're too good for you, Hofstra, Northeastern, Monmouth, Duquesne, and Marist," which IMO is the single most self-destructive impulse of the presidents running the League. Not that it should be a club just anyone can join (and in the case of Hofstra and Northeastern, and the way Stu and Aoun treated their football programs, I'm thankful they didn't join), but there has to be a place for the type of school that is "good FCS-level athletics, building super-strong academics" that can grow into the role.

ODU didn't start as a football+basketball powerhouse when they joined the CAA: in 1991, when they joined, they were a regional basketball mid-major player with regional aspirations in Virginia. If the CAA had said "sorry, you can only join if your enrollment is X and you have a football program and you can guarantee X NCAA tournament bids", the CAA would have been worse off. There is value to taking on a school that is growing into a role.

5. The problem with "no football schools willing to commit" is not unique to the PL. The problem is the moratorium on D-II, D-III, and NAIA move-ups to Division I, and the requirement that schools need to spend time in every division before getting to D-I, effectively making it impossible for the PL "academic dream team" to join the D-I ranks. This wouldn't just help the PL, but all conferences looking for, say the North Alabama's to replace the Appalachian State's.

It's pretty telling that Elon's move to the CAA is bringing whoops of joy from some CAA fans now, when, say, had it been announced a year ago the same move might have been seen very, very differently. Not a lot is being said in regards that Elon as an institution is nothing like any other school in the CAA, and hasn't even been all that successful overall athletically. Just the fact that they're a living, breathing school that sponsors FCS football seems to be enough for happiness.

6. If the NCAA lifted the moratorium tomorrow, combined with the addition of a requirement that all sports need to be in a consistent division, you'd immediately see Johns Hopkins and RPI apply for PL membership that afternoon (and perhaps more), with all the PL fans cheering them on.

7. The PL's MO has always been to only act when there's a clear and present danger (HC and Army threatening to bolt unless hoops schollies enacted, Fordham daring league to offer football schollies) or when schools approach them with great offers (BU leaving AE, Loyola leaving MAAC).

Instead or critiquing a post that was not your own idea, please feel free to start plenty more uneducated rumors about expansion. For someone that gets paid so-called knowing sportsxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlol xxlolxxlolxxlolxxpeacex

[Engineer86]

I could see Lehigh becoming too big for their egos and ultimately thinking they would have a shot at the A-10. They are a large enough institution to hide 'student-in-name-only' basketball players and have a strong funding base to support such a move. They could easily move other sports as well. But ultimately, the cachet and pedigree of the PL resonates much more strongly than the A-10.

It is not hard to let your ego run away with itself, when you are constantly paired with an inferior little school that want so badly to be on par with us.

[Engineer86]

We must have some stand out player coming in that is a poor student. That stinks after having such a great member of the student body graduate last week, like CJxcrazyxxrolleyesxxbangx

[Pard4Life]

It is not hard to let your ego run away with itself, when you are constantly paired with an inferior little school that want so badly to be on par with us.

I never thought of Colgate in that manner... xeyebrowx

[Pard4Life]

JHU football record since 2008:

2008: 8-3
2009: 10-3 (#8)
2010: 8-3
2011: 10-1 (#19)
2012: 10-2 (#20)

And Georgetown football won 8+ games regularly in the MAAC...

[Pard4Life]

I can tell you that right now, there are a LOT of people at Rutgers - though mostly old folks like me - that wish RU had never left its traditional peers, including Lafayette, Lehigh, Princeton, Columbia, Bucknell, Colgate, Army and others. The present "trouble" with the new AD has only made matters worse. But the die is cast.

Interesting you bring up Rutgers. If Rutgers remained with the PL schools and did not transform into a state behemoth, they would have been the answer to our problems... a stable 8 team league... like the Ivy. There are old college pennants from the 40s-50s in Lafayette's alumni building. All of them are top flight schools are a distinguished crowd even today: Columbia, Bucknell, Penn etc... and then there is the Rutgers pennant... makes you think...

If our crowd was thinking like the Ivy in 1956, you could have had:

Army, Navy, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Rutgers... a pretty darn solid league to rival the Ivy in sports and academics.

[RichH2]

That's my era. Loved playing Rutgers. For the time it was the perfact league, yeah even tho LU sucked in the mid to late 60s.

[Go...gate]

Interesting you bring up Rutgers. If Rutgers remained with the PL schools and did not transform into a state behemoth, they would have been the answer to our problems... a stable 8 team league... like the Ivy. There are old college pennants from the 40s-50s in Lafayette's alumni building. All of them are top flight schools are a distinguished crowd even today: Columbia, Bucknell, Penn etc... and then there is the Rutgers pennant... makes you think...

If our crowd was thinking like the Ivy in 1956, you could have had:

Army, Navy, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Rutgers... a pretty darn solid league to rival the Ivy in sports and academics.

Yes, indeed. All the regional synergies are there. Another eight-team bus league with a lot of old rivalries even before 1956.

[van]

We must have some stand out player coming in that is a poor student. That stinks after having such a great member of the student body graduate last week, like CJxcrazyxxrolleyesxxbangx

OH hey, I resemble that, except that I was not a stand out player, hmmm.

[Go Green]

Army, Navy, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Rutgers... a pretty darn solid league to rival the Ivy in sports and academics.

Indeed.

But there were probably reasons why it didn't happen. For one thing, Army and Navy were still national powers in the 1950s. The others... were not.

[Sader87]

Indeed.

But there were probably reasons why it didn't happen. For one thing, Army and Navy were still national powers in the 1950s. The others... were not.

<Clears throat>....While maybe not a "national power," Holy Cross was ranked #19 in the final AP poll in 1951 and was regularly playing and often beating the likes of Syracuse, Penn St, Pitt and BC into the early 1960's.

[Laker]

<Clears throat>....While maybe not a "national power," Holy Cross was ranked #19 in the final AP poll in 1951 and was regularly playing and often beating the likes of Syracuse, Penn St, Pitt and BC into the early 1960's.

When I think of HC and football, I think of Gordie Lockbaum. When I think of HC and hockey, I think of listening to WCCO when they beat the #1 seed Gophers in OT. xsmiley_wix

[superman7515]

It's pretty telling that Elon's move to the CAA is bringing whoops of joy from some CAA fans now, when, say, had it been announced a year ago the same move might have been seen very, very differently. Not a lot is being said in regards that Elon as an institution is nothing like any other school in the CAA, and hasn't even been all that successful overall athletically. Just the fact that they're a living, breathing school that sponsors FCS football seems to be enough for happiness.

The majority of CAA fans I've seen were not happy about adding Elon at all, but seemed to think of it as the lesser of the evils if you will. Some William & Mary fans or Richmond fans may be happy about the location so they can get a closer road trip game out of it instead of say a game against New Hampshire or Maine, but the general feeling was more along the lines of, well, we lived to fight another day. Most people were more interested in Albany and Stony Brook, and even they weren't seen as exciting. Pretty much all of the fans of CAA schools north of Towson were less than impressed with the addition of Elon. And that's not just the UD fans, they weren't going to be happy with anyone. There were practically tears shed when people talked about "how far we've fallen" to be looking at schools like Albany and Mercer as peers.

[Franks Tanks]

<Clears throat>....While maybe not a "national power," Holy Cross was ranked #19 in the final AP poll in 1951 and was regularly playing and often beating the likes of Syracuse, Penn St, Pitt and BC into the early 1960's.

We know, the Big East.

PSU- HC is 0-9 all time against PSU, and last played them in 1963. PSU did visit Fitton in 1962, and had a series from the mid-50's to early 60's.

Pitt- HC is 0-1 all time vs. Pitt losing at Pitt in 1958

Cuse- 5-23 all time. Last game was 1973 and last win was 1958

Rutgers- 11-8 all time. Last game in 1979, last win in 1972. Lafayette, Lehigh Princeton and Colgate were also frequent, if not yearly opponents, of Rutgers until the mid-70's.

We all know about HC/BC.

I agree that HC (and Colgate) stayed at a higher level than the other PL loneger, but most of the HC schedule at that time was made up of current or former FCS schools ( UCONN and UMASS).

[Sader87]

When I think of HC and football, I think of Gordie Lockbaum. When I think of HC and hockey, I think of listening to WCCO when they beat the #1 seed Gophers in OT. xsmiley_wix

No HC and basketball??? Somewhere Bob Cousy is shedding a tear....

[Sader87]

We know, the Big East.

PSU- HC is 0-9 all time against PSU, and last played them in 1963. PSU did visit Fitton in 1962, and had a series from the mid-50's to early 60's.

Pitt- HC is 0-1 all time vs. Pitt losing at Pitt in 1958

Cuse- 5-23 all time. Last game was 1973 and last win was 1958

Rutgers- 11-8 all time. Last game in 1979, last win in 1972. Lafayette, Lehigh Princeton and Colgate were also frequent, if not yearly opponents, of Rutgers until the mid-70's.

We all know about HC/BC.

I agree that HC (and Colgate) stayed at a higher level than the other PL loneger, but most of the HC schedule at that time was made up of current or former FCS schools ( UCONN and UMASS).

I don't completely disagree....I'd say that HC football went from being a true "University Division/D1/FBS program" somewhere in the early/mid 1960's...probably after Dr Eddie Anderson's 2nd stint as head coach at HC.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't completely disagree....I'd say that HC football went from being a true "University Division/D1/FBS program" somewhere in the early/mid 1960's...probably after Dr Eddie Anderson's 2nd stint as head coach at HC.

Several schools straddled the line, especially in the Northeast where tradition extended series longer than perhaps they should have went.

[Sader87]

Several schools straddled the line, especially in the Northeast where tradition extended series longer than perhaps they should have gone.

Fixed it for ya...just busting. HC going coed in 1972 effectively ended our era as a legit D1 program in football and hoop.

HC and Colgate football were basically at the same level as the Ivies for most of the 20th Century.

[Go...gate]

Fixed it for ya...just busting. HC going coed in 1972 effectively ended our era as a legit D1 program in football and hoop.

HC and Colgate football were basically at the same level as the Ivies for most of the 20th Century.

Yes. The Ivies appeared on both of our schedules routinely - and often - before and after the formation of the conference in 1956. Both schools tended to also schedule traditional opponents such as BC, Syracuse, Army, Lafayette, NYU, Rutgers and such. Remember that for years, schools played eight or nine games in a season maximum.

We also played those schools in Basketball each year, sometimes home and home. Colgate and HC played some of the toughest BB slates in the east every year - HC was highly successful, Colgate was not - but the schedules were never watered down. AIR, Colgate and HC would participate in the legendary Madison Square Garden college BB doubleheaders from time to time.

[Go...gate]

No HC and basketball??? Somewhere Bob Cousy is shedding a tear....

Tommy Heinsohn, Ronnie Perry, etc.

Still remember HC's 1977 near-miss against #1 Michigan in the NCAA tournament. You guys had a hell of a club and deserved that game.

[Laker]

No HC and basketball??? Somewhere Bob Cousy is shedding a tear....

I'm old, but even Bob is before my time. I remember him coaching the Cincinnati Royals.......

[Go...gate]

I'm old, but even Bob is before my time. I remember him coaching the Cincinnati Royals.......

God, I'm REALLY old. I saw him play. I remember him doing magazine ads for Kent cigarettes!

He was a hell of a player and one of the best passers of all time. Magic and Jason Kidd come to mind.

[MplsBison]

Interesting you bring up Rutgers. If Rutgers remained with the PL schools and did not transform into a state behemoth, they would have been the answer to our problems... a stable 8 team league... like the Ivy. There are old college pennants from the 40s-50s in Lafayette's alumni building. All of them are top flight schools are a distinguished crowd even today: Columbia, Bucknell, Penn etc... and then there is the Rutgers pennant... makes you think...

If our crowd was thinking like the Ivy in 1956, you could have had:

Army, Navy, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Rutgers... a pretty darn solid league to rival the Ivy in sports and academics.

Why include Rutgers? A state public school (not a federal school) doesn't seem to fit in with the others.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Why include Rutgers? A state public school (not a federal school) doesn't seem to fit in with the others.

Could someone other than me please clue in MplsBison on the significance of Rutgers' unique relationship with the PL schools?

[PAllen]

JHU football record since 2008:

2008: 8-3
2009: 10-3 (#8)
2010: 8-3
2011: 10-1 (#19)
2012: 10-2 (#20)

Homecoming is a lacrosse game in the spring. FB attendance is in the hundreds. Most of the students don't even know they have a FB team.

[MplsBison]

Could someone other than me please clue in MplsBison on the significance of Rutgers' unique relationship with the PL schools?

Well? Rutgers is to New Jersey what Penn St is to Pennsylvania. Aren't a lot of PL schools in PA?

[Go Green]

HC going coed in 1972 effectively ended our era as a legit D1 program in football.

Which brings up another problem for the Army-Navy-Rutgers-PL 1950s "conference."

What do you think would have happened to that "conference" in 1981 when the IA-I-AA teams split? It would have made Fordham's "we want scholarships" demand look like collegial afternoon tea. There's no way Army or Navy were going to I-AA, and the conference would have died right then and there.

[Go...gate]

Why include Rutgers? A state public school (not a federal school) doesn't seem to fit in with the others.

Rutgers was a private school before WW II and was really still only quasi-public until the late 1970's. RU was actually a colonial college and might have stayed private but for political momentum in the 1970's that moved it more in a direction as a State university (there was actually a move under Governor Cahill to consolidate all the so-called "state teachers" colleges in Trenton, Jersey City, Stockton, Glassboro, Paterson and Montclair into a State University but it failed).

[Sader87]

Again, I don't disagree Go Green but both Army and Navy were pretty down in football in the early 1980's. HC, Colgate and the Ivies were beating Army regularly, Yale beat Navy in 1981 etc. That era (post Vietnam late 70's/early 80's) was probably the nadir for both Army and Navy football.

[Go...gate]

Well? Rutgers is to New Jersey what Penn St is to Pennsylvania. Aren't a lot of PL schools in PA?

No way. A lot of the old Rutgers grads want nothing to do with Penn State, which for many years was considered a very average state university. They see their historical peers as the Ivies, many of the present Patriots (save American and Loyola), NYU, Stevens (a very prestigious engineering school in Hoboken), Syracuse and a few others.

[Go...gate]

Again, I don't disagree Go Green but both Army and Navy were pretty down in football in the early 1980's. HC, Colgate and the Ivies were beating Army regularly, Yale beat Navy in 1981 etc. That era (post Vietnam late 70's/early 80's) was probably the nadir for both Army and Navy football.

Right. Army and Navy were downright awful many of those years and routinely lost to the Patriots and Ivies.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well? Rutgers is to New Jersey what Penn St is to Pennsylvania.

Not even close. Rutgers' tenure as a "state university" is actually rather brief.

[Go...gate]

Could someone other than me please clue in MplsBison on the significance of Rutgers' unique relationship with the PL schools?

I am. Hell, I have some affiliation with RU and what the school does confuses the hell out of me.

[Franks Tanks]

No way. A lot of the old Rutgers grads want nothing to do with Penn State, which for many years was considered a very average state university. They see their historical peers as the Ivies, many of the present Patriots (save American and Loyola), NYU, Stevens (a very prestigious engineering school in Hoboken), Syracuse and a few others.

Yup, PSU was founded as PA's land grant university in the 1850's and was largely an AG school in the middle or nowhere for decades. Pitt is somewhat similar to Rutgers, but wasn't as prestigious back in the day. Pitt used to be known as the University of Western PA, and was private until 1966 when it became "state related".

[DFW HOYA]

Well? Rutgers is to New Jersey what Penn St is to Pennsylvania.

Actually, Rutgers is to New Jersey what Virginia Tech is to Virginia--a formerly small college that grew out of proportion and is now a huge university.

New Jersey may be one of the few states where in-state students don't aspire to go to their flagship university.

[Sader87]

Mr Magoo was a Rutgers grad, was he not?

[DFW HOYA]

Mr Magoo was a Rutgers grad, was he not?

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~rssand/555/FINAL/mr%20magoo.jpg

[Bogus Megapardus]

Mr Magoo was a Rutgers grad, was he not?

Indeed - and that was in the days of Rutgers' membership in the Middle Three, which was Rutgers' home for most of its athletic existence. FYI, MplsBison - the Middle Three Conference was a precursor to the Patriot League. Rutgers has far more history with Lafayette, Army, Lehigh and Princeton than it does with any Big East or Big 10 institution.

[Laker]

Actually, Rutgers is to New Jersey what Virginia Tech is to Virginia--a formerly small college that grew out of proportion and is now a huge university.

New Jersey may be one of the few states where in-state students don't aspire to go to their flagship university.

Wasn't there a push 20 or 30 years ago to change the name to the University of New Jersey?

[MplsBison]

Thanks all for the info, quite interesting if I say so myself.

Bogus - see all the posts you could've saved if you had simply supplied the correct info in the first place? No matter, I have my way of provoking the correct info, as you can see -- carry on.

[Go...gate]

Wasn't there a push 20 or 30 years ago to change the name to the University of New Jersey?

Yes, on several occasions. Ultimately, Trenton State grabbed that brass ring by changing its name to "College of New Jersey" against the objections of Princeton, which had once claimed that moniker at the time of its formation in about 1746.

[Go...gate]

Indeed - and that was in the days of Rutgers' membership in the Middle Three, which was Rutgers' home for most of its athletic existence. FYI, MplsBison - the Middle Three Conference was a precursor to the Patriot League. Rutgers has far more history with Lafayette, Army, Lehigh, Princeton and Columbia than it does with any Big East or Big 10 institution.

Fixed it for ya....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Actually, Rutgers is to New Jersey what Virginia Tech is to Virginia--a formerly small college that grew out of proportion and is now a huge university.

New Jersey may be one of the few states where in-state students don't aspire to go to their flagship university.

Temple wasn't a very large university until the mid to late 80's. It shared a similar path to Pitt minus the large amount of $$....

[MplsBison]

Temple wasn't a very large university until the mid to late 80's. It shared a similar path to Pitt minus the large amount of $$....

The state wanted two big, state run schools in the two big cities?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The state wanted two big, state run schools in the two big cities?

That's basically what it came down to. Temple and Pitt give the state of Pennsylvania two large urban research universities to compliment PSU. Temple's primary focus was on professional degrees prior to the 1990's. Only the last 20 years or so has the undergrad side of things taken off.

West Chester and IUP are next in line in the PA pecking order. West Chester had ties with Lehigh and, I think, Lafayette, going back some time.

[MplsBison]

And, for what it's worth, Pitt is right next to Carnegie Mellon - which is Ivy/PL like.

[Sader87]

The majority of CAA fans I've seen were not happy about adding Elon at all, but seemed to think of it as the lesser of the evils if you will. Some William & Mary fans or Richmond fans may be happy about the location so they can get a closer road trip game out of it instead of say a game against New Hampshire or Maine, but the general feeling was more along the lines of, well, we lived to fight another day. Most people were more interested in Albany and Stony Brook, and even they weren't seen as exciting. Pretty much all of the fans of CAA schools north of Towson were less than impressed with the addition of Elon. And that's not just the UD fans, they weren't going to be happy with anyone. There were practically tears shed when people talked about "how far we've fallen" to be looking at schools like Albany and Mercer as peers.

That's kind of how I feel lately. It was one thing when were playing UMass, UConn, URI, Northeastern et. al when they were D2 but it just seems that the FCS/1-AA level is a "glorified D2 level" now with a lot of additions over the last couple of decades.

I know it's a different world but if you had told me in 1987 that HC would be playing CCSU, Monmouth, Wagner, Marist etc in the 2010's, I would have thought we had dropped down a division in football.

[Sitting Bull]

The majority of CAA fans I've seen were not happy about adding Elon at all, but seemed to think of it as the lesser of the evils if you will. Some William & Mary fans or Richmond fans may be happy about the location so they can get a closer road trip game out of it instead of say a game against New Hampshire or Maine, but the general feeling was more along the lines of, well, we lived to fight another day. Most people were more interested in Albany and Stony Brook, and even they weren't seen as exciting. Pretty much all of the fans of CAA schools north of Towson were less than impressed with the addition of Elon. And that's not just the UD fans, they weren't going to be happy with anyone. There were practically tears shed when people talked about "how far we've fallen" to be looking at schools like Albany and Mercer as peers.

You don't think UNCW and Charleston fans were also glad to add Elon? I know W&M and UR fans were overall pleased, in part for the proximity - also because we are more familiar with Elon, the investments there, the schools growth, their facilities and the fact their key programs have made great strides. Even most Hofstra fans were positive.

The only group I heard say anything negative were Drexel fans - who are negative about everything and quite frankly showed a lot of ignorance about Elon - and JMU fans who shouldn't matter anyway. They are in total meltdown mode, the jilted sister who doesn't have a date and only seems to know they want to move like GMU and ODU - but not sure where or why. Just move.

Not sure what you are reading but most

[heath]

Actually, Rutgers is to New Jersey what Virginia Tech is to Virginia--a formerly small college that grew out of proportion and is now a huge university.

New Jersey may be one of the few states where in-state students don't aspire to go to their flagship university.

xconfusedxNew Jersey doesn't even have a sports school comparable to the UVA or VT scenario.You are obviously not in touch with either Virginia school, or what they stand for.xnodx

[DFW HOYA]

xconfusedxNew Jersey doesn't even have a sports school comparable to the UVA or VT scenario.You are obviously not in touch with either Virginia school, or what they stand for.xnodx

Note again the comparison is based on size. I was not speaking to the different athletic histories of Rutgers vs. VPI.

[Go Green]

I know it's a different world but if you had told me in 1987 that HC would be playing CCSU, Monmouth, Wagner, Marist etc in the 2010's, I would have thought we had dropped down a division in football.

You should see the Ivy alums. Some are acting as if we've dropped football altogether by scheduling NEC and PFL teams. I try to point out to them that Monmouth has actually beaten Villanova, but they keep acting as if it's still 1970....

[Sitting Bull]

That's kind of how I feel lately. It was one thing when were playing UMass, UConn, URI, Northeastern et. al when they were D2 but it just seems that the FCS/1-AA level is a "glorified D2 level" now with a lot of additions over the last couple of decades.

I know it's a different world but if you had told me in 1987 that HC would be playing CCSU, Monmouth, Wagner, Marist etc in the 2010's, I would have thought we had dropped down a division in football.

Agree here. HC like W&M, UR and Colgate were among those borderline drops when 1AA was created. If you looked at any of our pre 1AA schedules vs today, you could certainly draw that conclusion.

Still, long term, I think it has been the best home for all of us.

[Sader87]

Agree here. HC like W&M, UR and Colgate were among those borderline drops when 1AA was created. If you looked at any of our pre 1AA schedules vs today, you could certainly draw that conclusion.

Still, long term, I think it has been the best home for all of us.

Agreed...I'm not advocating for HC to return to 1-A/FBS status, something they were in name only for much of the 1960's and 1970's...just lamenting the fact that the 1-AA I basically grew up with i.e. a strong Ivy League, close rivals UMass, UConn etc in 1-AA is a thing of the past.

[Tony From Long Island]

I have said for years that Wagner should be in the Patriot League.

The schools are more on par with Wagner than those in the NEC and the sports programs at Wagner would fit right in.