Nova' to Patriot

[Dave195]

Today's rumor, which I've seen on CAA and MAAC forums:

The Northern Schools are upset with the CAA as a whole after losing Boston University and now not being able to get Albany, which was assumed to have been an easy get.

Villanova in football is likely headed to the Patriot League which will damage CAA football.

Hofstra is talking to the MAAC. Northeastern and Drexel have multiple options.

[Dave195]

As an MU fan I'd love to see Hofstra as the 12th member of the MAAC for basketball. I'd also like to see MU football in either the CAA or (more likely) Patriot League in the coming years after stadium renovations are complete and schollies are upped.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Northern Schools are upset with the CAA as a whole after losing Boston University and now not being able to get Albany, which was assumed to have been an easy get.

Why are people assuming that Albany is/was such an easy get for the CAA? By accepting them for football-only, what was ever the incentive for them to join the CAA in all sports?

[WMTribe90]

Today's rumor, which I've seen on CAA and MAAC forums:

The Northern Schools are upset with the CAA as a whole after losing Boston University and now not being able to get Albany, which was assumed to have been an easy get.

Villanova in football is likely headed to the Patriot League which will damage CAA football.

Hofstra is talking to the MAAC. Northeastern and Drexel have multiple options.

What is the source for any of these rumors? Was there an article? Anything beyond pure internet gossip?

[Dave195]

It does say today's 'rumor' in the post lol. On the boards I saw no true source. It did say however that W&M wants to get into Patriot League.

[MplsBison]

It does say today's 'rumor' in the post lol. On the boards I saw no true source. It did say however that W&M wants to get into Patriot League.

But in the Patriot League, both Villanova and W&M will have to deal with the AQ. Keep that in mind.

Unless the "true" academic blue bloods of the PL can find it in their hearts to let schools like Fordham, W&M, Villanova and perhaps Richmond participate in the conference without the AQ, say perhaps at the cost of not being allowed to win the automatic bid to the playoffs?

So it'd be more of a scheduling agreement.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But in the Patriot League, both Villanova and W&M will have to deal with the AQ. Keep that in mind.

Unless the "true" academic blue bloods of the PL can find it in their hearts to let schools like Fordham, W&M, Villanova and perhaps Richmond participate in the conference without the AQ, say perhaps at the cost of not being allowed to win the automatic bid to the playoffs?

So it'd be more of a scheduling agreement.

I find myself saying this to myself often, but I'll verbalize it now. WTF are you taking about?

[ccd494]

I find myself saying this to myself often, but I'll verbalize it now. WTF are you taking about?

I think he means AI.

This seems to be coming from the America East boards, where there was a bit of a wildfire started by some pretty knowledgeable Dane posters that UA had an all sports CAA invite. This, of course, initiated a.) teeth gnashing from SBU fans (they either weren't interested in the CAA due to FBS dreams, or had already turned down an invite, or liked being a big fish in the AE small pond, depending on the poster), b.) disdain from UVM fans (why would you move to another 1-bid conference?), and c.) speculation that NJ Tech was the next man up.

Since then, however, those Dane fans have pointed out that UA is not sure at all this would be a step up, as the CAA as currently constituted is most assuredly 1-bid, they already have CAA football, and the travel would be much greater. Additionally, the "is the CAA a step up?" flames have been fanned by (unattributed) rumors of JMU to FBS, W&M to the Patriot and Hofstra to the MAAC, which for a northeast team would seemingly solidify that answer as "no."

[Sandlapper Spike]

This article may have something to do with the "Villanova to Patriot League" talk:

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/brad-wilson/index.ssf/2013/05/villanova_the_perfect_answer_to_the_patriot_league _football_scheduling_conundrum.html

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I hope this is true!!

[Sitting Bull]

This article may have something to do with the "Villanova to Patriot League" talk:

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/brad-wilson/index.ssf/2013/05/villanova_the_perfect_answer_to_the_patriot_league _football_scheduling_conundrum.html

To answer the question, the "rumors" are all based on a single poster to the CAA Board named "hoopstarter" - who blanketed the sight with asinine speculation last night - to include, College of Charleston to CUSA, W&M to the Patriot and Hofsta talking to the MAAC (this after stating in another thread a couple of weeks ago that Hofstra blocked SBU for full sports entry).

He's only interested in stirring agitation, nothing more.

The article above is a sport writer in the Lehigh Valley, home of Lehigh and Lafayette. He's making a suggestion, that's it. When Andy Talley dies, then it may have legs. Other than that, I don't believe you are going to see Villanova drop down in football and relinquish their rivalries with Delaware, W&M and UR.

[WMTribe90]

This article may have something to do with the "Villanova to Patriot League" talk:

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/brad-wilson/index.ssf/2013/05/villanova_the_perfect_answer_to_the_patriot_league _football_scheduling_conundrum.html

Thanks. Author is making the case for why VU would be a good fit in his/her opinion, but made no indication there's anything to it beyond that.

[MplsBison]

I find myself saying this to myself often, but I'll verbalize it now. WTF are you taking about?

AI...what the heck ever. You knew darn well what I meant.

[MplsBison]

I think he means AI.

This seems to be coming from the America East boards, where there was a bit of a wildfire started by some pretty knowledgeable Dane posters that UA had an all sports CAA invite. This, of course, initiated a.) teeth gnashing from SBU fans (they either weren't interested in the CAA due to FBS dreams, or had already turned down an invite, or liked being a big fish in the AE small pond, depending on the poster), b.) disdain from UVM fans (why would you move to another 1-bid conference?), and c.) speculation that NJ Tech was the next man up.

Since then, however, those Dane fans have pointed out that UA is not sure at all this would be a step up, as the CAA as currently constituted is most assuredly 1-bid, they already have CAA football, and the travel would be much greater. Additionally, the "is the CAA a step up?" flames have been fanned by (unattributed) rumors of JMU to FBS, W&M to the Patriot and Hofstra to the MAAC, which for a northeast team would seemingly solidify that answer as "no."

Well...it's a great point.

The CAA is a 1-bid league. As very aptly put - why would you trade one 1-bid league for another if you're not saving costs or making more money in another sense (TV contract?) in doing so???

[Tribe4SF]

Don't people ever get tired of fueling this speculative BS? W&M ain't going to the Patriot. Neither are Villanova, or Richmond, or Delaware, or UNH, or Maine. JMU doesn't appear to have anyone knocking on their door, and Towson, URI, Stony Brook and Albany are in for the long haul. CAA Football is solid. Add Elon and we're back to two divisions and it's scheduling advantages.

[MplsBison]

Any changes to the status quo are always speculative you know what....until they happen.

[UNH Fanboi]

Thank god, I've been missing my fix of PL expansion discussion. Needle to my vein.

[Lehigh'98]

Unless the CAA loses some major names, VU and/or W&M to the PL (as enchanting as that sounds) will not happen. Some people on message boards really don't know what to do with themselves in the offseason aside from wild speculation. Only about 100 more days until actual football....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thank god, I've been missing my fix of PL expansion discussion. Needle to my vein.

I just want to say for the record I had nothing to do with this. :P

[RichH2]

Lol....
Just nice to see PL expansion virus has spread. The virus causes premature speculation, embarrassing but not lethal.

[Pard4Life]

Don't people ever get tired of fueling this speculative BS? W&M ain't going to the Patriot. Neither are Villanova, or Richmond, or Delaware, or UNH, or Maine. JMU doesn't appear to have anyone knocking on their door, and Towson, URI, Stony Brook and Albany are in for the long haul. CAA Football is solid. Add Elon and we're back to two divisions and it's scheduling advantages.

WM and UNH were actually in discussion to join the Patriot in 2012, but that fell apart when Albany and SBU joined. But it's not changing now.

[Pard4Life]

xbangx PLEASE xbangx STOP xbangx POSTING xbangx ON xbangx THIS xbangx TOPIC xbangx IN xbangx THE xbangx MAIN xbangx THREADS!!!! xbangx xbangx xbangx xflamemadx xflamemadx

[Go...gate]

Where there is smoke.....

[Pard4Life]

Where there is smoke.....

... check between P4Ls ears...

[Go...gate]

xbangx PLEASE xbangx STOP xbangx POSTING xbangx ON xbangx THIS xbangx TOPIC xbangx IN xbangx THE xbangx MAIN xbangx THREADS!!!! xbangx xbangx xbangx xflamemadx xflamemadx

Aw, c'mon, P4L. Don't hold back - tell us how you really feel! :Dxrotatehx

[Pard4Life]

Aw, c'mon, P4L. Don't hold back - tell us how you really feel! :Dxrotatehx

I will restrain myself until I see a six-page spread worthy of the NYT Sunday Magazine from LFN on the subject.

[RichH2]

If this thread continues, I fear P4L's head will explode and it's not even summer yet.

[Go...gate]

I will restrain myself until I see a six-page spread worthy of the NYT Sunday Magazine from LFN on the subject.

LFN, time to get to work. Gotta be a cover story! xcoachx

[carney2]

The only sure thing about Patriot League expansion is that one, and probably only one, more football school is an absolute must. As currently constituted with 7 teams, you have 6 League games and need to find 5 OOCs, a difficult task. In addition, the odd number means that someone - or a group of someones - either has an open date or some even more difficult scheduling problems in November. On the other hand, going above 8 members creates the problem of reducing OOC scheduling opportunities for schools with some non-League traditions.

Let's just say that it's quite a conundrum. If it's only one that's needed - and as I said, I think it is - the great minds that run the Patriot League (sorry, there's no emoticon for facetious) need to get it right. If it comes down to the usual list of suspects (Marist, Monmouth, Bryant, etc.) for this lone critical spot, the entire League might as well put a gun to its collective head. So I say keep the Villanova, W&M, UNH, etc. rumors flying. It's a little pressure to move in the right direction - the only acceptable direction.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The only sure thing about Patriot League expansion is that one, and probably only one, more football school is an absolute must. As currently constituted with 7 teams, you have 6 League games and need to find 5 OOCs, a difficult task. In addition, the odd number means that someone - or a group of someones - either has an open date or some even more difficult scheduling problems in November. On the other hand, going above 8 members creates the problem of reducing OOC scheduling opportunities for schools with some non-League traditions.

Let's just say that it's quite a conundrum. If it's only one that's needed - and as I said, I think it is - the great minds that run the Patriot League (sorry, there's no emoticon for facetious) need to get it right. If it comes down to the usual list of suspects (Marist, Monmouth, Bryant, etc.) for this lone critical spot, the entire League might as well put a gun to its collective head. So I say keep the Villanova, W&M, UNH, etc. rumors flying. It's a little pressure to move in the right direction - the only acceptable direction.

To follow this up a bit is a very intriguing part of Brad's article.


But at the same time, to add another full member might be a step too far in a sport such as basketball, and to add a group of teams might be too much for football.

“If we played eight or nine league games it begins to restrict your other games like playing Army or Navy,” Schlie Femovich said.

This seems to point to the ideal being 8 members, 7 league games, no league bye weeks during the regular season. Having said that, though, if the Black Swan event of Delaware and JMU to the MAC happens, Richmond, W&M, and Villanova would instantly become available - would the Patriot League really say no to any of the three?

[RichH2]

Certainly ,she was crystal clear that PL intends to add 1 football only member. Would we turn down Wofford, W&M as full members? Are we going to go expedient route ie Bryant et al or be patient?

[aceinthehole]

The only sure thing about Patriot League expansion is that one, and probably only one, more football school is an absolute must. As currently constituted with 7 teams, you have 6 League games and need to find 5 OOCs, a difficult task. In addition, the odd number means that someone - or a group of someones - either has an open date or some even more difficult scheduling problems in November. On the other hand, going above 8 members creates the problem of reducing OOC scheduling opportunities for schools with some non-League traditions.

Among other things, this is the same issue the NEC now faces. As the 2013 schedule has shown, most NEC teams now have to grab a D-II team for a home game, because scheduling is becoming even more difficult.

The NEC needs to bring Georgetown or Marist over to fill out the scheduling. Monmouth may basically become a default non-conference game for many NEC teams, but the scheduling issue for the NEC as a whole will persist or even get worse.

Few NEC teams can get a rare CAA home game and PL and Ivy home games are still fairly rare, so I don't know where the NEC is going to find HOME opponents unless it expands its league slate or looks to D-II schools.

[cmaxwellgsu]

These threads crack me up! Why would Nova move from a league that has put over half of its teams in the playoffs before, to a one bid league that typically get bounced on play-in weekend? Especially when they've won the big trophy in the last decade? Really?

[DFW HOYA]

The NEC needs to bring Georgetown or Marist over to fill out the scheduling. Monmouth may basically become a default non-conference game for many NEC teams, but the scheduling issue for the NEC as a whole will persist or even get worse.

Two of the three PL additions over the last 25 years were by necessity--Fordham was added to replace Davidson, Georgetown was added with Towson's departure in mind. If the PL really wants an eighth team to fill out schedules, that's one thing. If it's a fallback if Georgetown goes out the door, that's another story. Either way, the AI is a huge firewall for these programs to overcome amidst the concerns that joining the Patriot is an act of deemphasis.

The talk about Army and Navy is merely chum in the water. The idea that either academy will ever schedule a game with a team from Washington or Lewisburg is nonexistent.

[MplsBison]

These threads crack me up! Why would Nova move from a league that has put over half of its teams in the playoffs before, to a one bid league that typically get bounced on play-in weekend? Especially when they've won the big trophy in the last decade? Really?

As awkward as it may sound...being competitive in the NCAA's tournament for the sub-division (ie, the FCS playoffs) is hardly the most important thing on the minds of some of these programs!

Sometimes, to some people....it's more about the company you keep...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sometimes, to some people....it's more about the company you keep...

Are you still here?

[Sandlapper Spike]

These threads crack me up! Why would Nova move from a league that has put over half of its teams in the playoffs before, to a one bid league that typically get bounced on play-in weekend? Especially when they've won the big trophy in the last decade? Really?

My general impression, which could be very wrong, is that while I wouldn't discount the Patriot League as an eventual option, Villanova is unlikely to make a move like this until Talley retires.

[CFBfan]

These threads crack me up! Why would Nova move from a league that has put over half of its teams in the playoffs before, to a one bid league that typically get bounced on play-in weekend? Especially when they've won the big trophy in the last decade? Really?

Up to now this has been true BUT when the PL rosters get to 45 - 60 scholarships in a couple of years it is very likely to change.....time will tell.

[MplsBison]

Up to now this has been true BUT when the PL rosters get to 45 - 60 scholarships in a couple of years it is very likely to change.....time will tell.

But yet to be proven is if having 60 players on athletic scholarship ....who had to meet the AI.... is nationally competitive or not.

[carney2]

Two of the three PL additions over the last 25 years were by necessity--Fordham was added to replace Davidson, Georgetown was added with Towson's departure in mind. If the PL really wants an eighth team to fill out schedules, that's one thing. If it's a fallback if Georgetown goes out the door, that's another story. Either way, the AI is a huge firewall for these programs to overcome amidst the concerns that joining the Patriot is an act of deemphasis.

The talk about Army and Navy is merely chum in the water. The idea that either academy will ever schedule a game with a team from Washington or Lewisburg is nonexistent.

The AI and reshirting are serious issues unless someone out there is looking to ratchet down their commitments to athletics. As for Army on the schedule, I don't know about Georgetown and Bucknell, but Frank Tavani at Lafayette has strongly hinted that the Black Knights will be on future Leopard schedules.

I also agree with a previous post that states that being competitive with large state universities in the FCS playoffs is less important at most of the schools we're talking about in this thread than folks associated with these large state universities might think.

[MplsBison]

The AI and reshirting are serious issues unless someone out there is looking to ratchet down their commitments to athletics. As for Army on the schedule, I don't know about Georgetown and Bucknell, but Frank Tavani at Lafayette has strongly hinted that the Black Knights will be on future Leopard schedules.

It's entirely an issue of AI.

No recruit has ever come to a DI program happy to redshirt. They accept it as a matter of course and tradition (ie, putting in your time).


If the NCAA would simply do the right thing by giving Division I student athletes 5 years to play 5 seasons, the whole issue could be avoided.

[CFBfan]

But yet to be proven is if having 60 players on athletic scholarship ....who had to meet the AI.... is nationally competitive or not.

That's what I just said, we will see if the PL will be competitive nationaly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The AI and reshirting are serious issues unless someone out there is looking to ratchet down their commitments to athletics. As for Army on the schedule, I don't know about Georgetown and Bucknell, but Frank Tavani at Lafayette has strongly hinted that the Black Knights will be on future Leopard schedules.

The chances that Bill&Mary, Richmond or Nova come to the PL are still very remote, but the only way they'll agree to come will be with redshirting as an option.

They can probably live with 60 schollies, and IMO they can also live with the AI (which is a lot less of an issue than people care to admit). But losing redshirting is a non-starter. As one Bill&Mary poster said on here, without it the system breaks down for them.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That's what I just said, we will see if the PL will be competitive nationaly.

They already have been. These are legit FCS programs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's what I just said, we will see if the PL will be competitive nationaly.

Lehigh beat UNI and Towson in the FCS playoffs two years running without scholarships. A FCS blue-blood and the CAA champions - personally, I call that "competitive nationally", and that was without the merit-based aid.

One year, and the Patriot League is not "competitive nationally". O-kay then. Is the OVC "competitive nationally"?

[carney2]

If the NCAA would simply do the right thing by giving Division I student athletes 5 years to play 5 seasons, the whole issue could be avoided.

Not true and smacking of the Large state university mindset that I alluded to in a previous post. In the Patriot League, for instance, redshirting or "5 years to play 5 seasons" creates the potential for a competitive imbalance. Of the seven current members only Fordham, Georgetown and Lehigh have viable graduate programs. The other four schools would have to create some sort of a football motivated disruption to the traditional four year education to get that 5th year of competition. Some players, the coaches, and most of the hardcore fans would have no problems with it, but somehow I see it as contrary to the founding principles of the Patriot League.

[cmaxwellgsu]

As awkward as it may sound...being competitive in the NCAA's tournament for the sub-division (ie, the FCS playoffs) is hardly the most important thing on the minds of some of these programs!

Sometimes, to some people....it's more about the company you keep...

From what I have read here, it's more wishful on the PL's part for better company. I've never seen where anybody other than a PL poster mention this stuff. The straws they grasp at would be giving up a nice paved freeway to the playoffs complete with BCS money games to hop on a toll road with potholes....

[MplsBison]

That's what I just said, we will see if the PL will be competitive nationaly.

Sorry. Your post read to me that 60 scholarships in of itself would make them competitive.

[MplsBison]

Lehigh beat UNI and Towson in the FCS playoffs two years running without scholarships. A FCS blue-blood and the CAA champions - personally, I call that "competitive nationally", and that was without the merit-based aid.

One year, and the Patriot League is not "competitive nationally". O-kay then. Is the OVC "competitive nationally"?

Yet the NCAA said they had over 50 scholarship equivalencies of aid, which the school says is not merit based --- yet was only award by the merit of being on the football team (not available to regular students).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

From what I have read here, it's more wishful on the PL's part for better company. I've never seen where anybody other than a PL poster mention this stuff. The straws they grasp at would be giving up a nice paved freeway to the playoffs complete with BCS money games to hop on a toll road with potholes....

Einstein, look at the first post in this thread:


Today's rumor, which I've seen on CAA and MAAC forums:

The Northern Schools are upset with the CAA as a whole after losing Boston University and now not being able to get Albany, which was assumed to have been an easy get.

Villanova in football is likely headed to the Patriot League which will damage CAA football.

You did notice he has a Monmouth avatar, right?

[MplsBison]

Not true and smacking of the Large state university mindset that I alluded to in a previous post. In the Patriot League, for instance, redshirting or "5 years to play 5 seasons" creates the potential for a competitive imbalance. Of the seven current members only Fordham, Georgetown and Lehigh have viable graduate programs. The other four schools would have to create some sort of a football motivated disruption to the traditional four year education to get that 5th year of competition. Some players, the coaches, and most of the hardcore fans would have no problems with it, but somehow I see it as contrary to the founding principles of the Patriot League.

Nonsense.

There is no requirement that all degree coursework must be completed in 4 years. You simply spread those credits out over 5 years and perhaps take a few extra classes that ultimately don't contribute to the degree requirements.


This is hardly rocket science.

[CFBfan]

They already have been. These are legit FCS programs.

You know what I mean owl, if you don't that's sad

[Sandlapper Spike]

Nonsense.

There is no requirement that all degree coursework must be completed in 4 years. You simply spread those credits out over 5 years and perhaps take a few extra classes that ultimately don't contribute to the degree requirements.



What he's saying, though, is those schools don't want to do this. I can respect that. At The Citadel, there is an emphasis on trying to graduate in four years; our students are fortunate to have options for graduate work that are (I gather) not readily available to some Patriot League athletes.

[CFBfan]

Lehigh beat UNI and Towson in the FCS playoffs two years running without scholarships. A FCS blue-blood and the CAA champions - personally, I call that "competitive nationally", and that was without the merit-based aid.

One year, and the Patriot League is not "competitive nationally". O-kay then. Is the OVC "competitive nationally"?

I am a PL fan, you leihigh guys just can't seem to get over yourselves, NEWS FLASH: The PL is not YET respected nationaly AND LU is not nearly as good as you all seem to think they are!!!!
Outside of a few other LU boys I'm pretty sure that UNDER ONE % of the posters on this board would agree with you about national respect!!!!!!!!!!!

[CFBfan]

Sorry. Your post read to me that 60 scholarships in of itself would make them competitive.

Did it state somewhere that the PL no longer adhered to the AI?? NO!!!! it did NOT so the AI is a GIVEN you bone head

[WMTribe90]

It's entirely an issue of AI.

No recruit has ever come to a DI program happy to redshirt. They accept it as a matter of course and tradition (ie, putting in your time).


If the NCAA would simply do the right thing by giving Division I student athletes 5 years to play 5 seasons, the whole issue could be avoided.

Wrong again. I came very close to playing as a true freshman and was relieved to eventually redshirt. Part of me wanted to play, but I also realized that an extra year to develop meant I would be much more ready to play and perform at a higher level the following year. It also meant an extra year as a starter versus a back-up in the DL rotation (as I would have been as a true freshman). Most true freshmen that burn redshirts do so out of necessity because of injury/suspensions, etc to upper classmen. Competitors accept the challenge, but do so knowing they'd be better off with a year of practice and weight training under their belt.

Do you ever get tired of trying to know it all and being wrong more than you're right?

[MplsBison]

What he's saying, though, is those schools don't want to do this. I can respect that. At The Citadel, there is an emphasis on trying to graduate in four years; our students are fortunate to have options for graduate work that are (I gather) not readily available to some Patriot League athletes.

What does it matter?????

There is no such thing as an academic statistic in regards to how many students graduate in four years....because no one with any sense gives a rat's turd about such a pointless measure!


Are we even possibly considering an idea that someone who takes an extra semester to finish their degree requirements because...any number of personal reasons.... isn't as "good" as someone who finishes in exactly four years!?!

That's chickens__t.



EVEN THEN, so let the player graduate in four years than then transfer to another school for graduate work. He can use the last year of eligibility on that school's team if he so chooses. The NCAA allows such transfers without penalty.

[CFBfan]

Wrong again. I came very close to playing as a true freshman and was relieved to eventually redshirt. Part of me wanted to play, but I also realized that an extra year to develop would meant I would be much more ready to play and perform at a higher level the following year. It also meant an extra year as a starter versus a back-up in the DL rotation (as I would have been as a true freshman). Most true freshmen that burn redshirts do so out of necessity because of injury/suspensions, etc to upper classmen. Competitors accept the challenge, but do so knowing they'd be better off with a year of practice and weight training under their belt.

Do you ever get tired of trying to know it all and being wrong more than you're right?

that is mpls' specialty....i'm cetain it was his major

[MplsBison]

Wrong again. I came very close to playing as a true freshman and was relieved to eventually redshirt. Part of me wanted to play, but I also realized that an extra year to develop would meant I would be much more ready to play and perform at a higher level the following year. It also meant an extra year as a starter versus a back-up in the DL rotation (as I would have been as a true freshman). Most true freshmen that burn redshirts do so out of necessity because of injury/suspensions, etc to upper classmen. Competitors accept the challenge, but do so knowing they'd be better off with a year of practice and weight training under their belt.

Do you ever get tired of trying to know it all and being wrong more than you're right?

Once again:

are you possibly implying that a freshman who doesn't redshirt won't improve as much as one who does? In other words, the non-redshirting freshman can't lift weights, can't learn the system and can't gain a year of experience at the same rate as the redshirting freshman?


Only on AGS....

[MplsBison]

Did it state somewhere that the PL no longer adhered to the AI?? NO!!!! it did NOT so the AI is a GIVEN you bone head

Which is why I said that it would need to be proven yet that 60 scholarships with AI can be nationally competitive.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I am a PL fan, you leihigh guys just can't seem to get over yourselves, NEWS FLASH: The PL is not YET respected nationaly AND LU is not nearly as good as you all seem to think they are!!!!
Outside of a few other LU boys I'm pretty sure that UNDER ONE % of the posters on this board would agree with yoabout national respect!!!!!!!!!!!

Payton Award winner, national coach of the year, numerous Top 10/5 finishes...

The league is pretty good. I think Lehigh gets more respect than you think. Their history with Delaware and some of the other old Northeast powers help.

[WMTribe90]

Once again:

are you possibly implying that a freshman who doesn't redshirt won't improve as much as one who does? In other words, the non-redshirting freshman can't lift weights, can't learn the system and can't gain a year of experience at the same rate as the redshirting freshman?


Only on AGS....



My point, which is obvious to anyone that reads at a 5th grade level, is that the kid that redshirts gets to mature (physically and mentally) without burning a year of eligibility. The kid that redshirts has four years left to play at a higher level than he would have been capable of playing at as a true freshmen. The kid that redshirts will also often reach a higher level of play during his fifth year than he would he obtained playing for just four years (a net benefit to the team and the player).

Painfully obvious you didn't play the game in college and have no idea what you are talking about.

[CFBfan]

My point, which is obvious to anyone that reads a 5th grade level, is that the kid that redshirts gets to mature (physically and mentally) without burning a year of eligibility. The kid that redshirts has four years left to play at a higher level than he would have been capable of playing at as a true freshmen. The kid that redshirts will also often reach a higher level of play during his fifth year than he would he obtained playing for just four years (a net benefit to the team and the player).

Painfully obvious you didn't play the game in college and have no idea what you are talking about.

tribe90, mpls did play in college....with himself!

[Go...gate]

Payton Award winner, national coach of the year, numerous Top 10/5 finishes...

The league is pretty good. I think Lehigh gets more respect than you think. Their history with Delaware and some of the other old Northeast powers help.

There is also a little upstate NY school named Colgate that has won a few games, too.

[chargeradio]

If America East were to start football, would anyone move there? They already have Albany, Stony Brook, New Hampshire, and Maine. Delaware and JMU are still FBS flight risks, but maybe they could add Towson for all-sports and then Villanova for football only.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Einstein, look at the first post in this thread:



You did notice he has a Monmouth avatar, right?

Point being, most PL schools have a poster in this thread without a single Villanova grad saying a word on this. Now that you've corrected me on Monmouth not being in the PL, you can go back to waiting for that ESPN job offer junior.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

There is also a little upstate NY school named Colgate that has won a few games, too.

Exactly...

If you ranked the Top 20/25 1AA/FCS programs historically Lehigh and Colgate are on it. Lafayette and HC have had their moments too. Heck, the PL/Colonial has had a Heisman finalist.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Point being, most PL schools have a poster in this thread without a single Villanova grad saying a word on this. Now that you've corrected me on Monmouth not being in the PL, you can go back to waiting for that ESPN job offer junior.

Plenty of chatter on the 'Nova board the last 6 months about this. Some are warming up to the idea...

[Sader87]

Plenty of chatter on the 'Nova board the last 6 months about this. Some are warming up to the idea...

It's really a fait accompli imo (VU to the PL that is).......if Villanova doesn't drop football that is. Who should Villanova be playing in football as an institution, schools like Georgetown, Holy Cross, Fordham, Lehigh etc. or schools like JMU, UMaine, Towson etc???

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The chances that Bill&Mary, Richmond or Nova come to the PL are still very remote, but the only way they'll agree to come will be with redshirting as an option.

They can probably live with 60 schollies, and IMO they can also live with the AI (which is a lot less of an issue than people care to admit). But losing redshirting is a non-starter. As one Bill&Mary poster said on here, without it the system breaks down for them.

Then maybe you should write one of your blogs about the details of the AI because as I understand it from posters on this forum, it definitely would be a huge issue. Those bands that I've seen described would have a significant impact. Haven't the Fordham folks complained that the low end of the Patriot AI bands are higher than the low end of the Fordham student body bands? If W&M, Richmond and/or Villanova are bringing in football players that don't meet the AI or even fall outside their regular student body range yet still meet all APR standards and have graduation rates that please the respective schools, why would they want to be restricted by an AI? (For the record, I have no idea if any of these schools admit football players with grades and test scores below the student body range.)

You've pontificated on only applying the Patriot AI to the out of state players at UNH. We'll forget for the moment that on average only one incoming recruit per year given a scholarship is from NH. (In-state kids tend to be walk-ons who then earn a partial or full scholarship during their eligibility.) As far as I've seen, UNH recruits football players with grades and scores that fit within the entire student body. While that is a Patriot tenet, the GPA and SAT/ACT bands of Patriot schools is higher than UNH. Without doing research I don't know where the bottom of the AI intersects the UNH range, but common sense tells me there is a significant range of UNH students that don't fall into the Patriot AI bands. And there have to be many football players who would fall into that range. I truly don't understand how the AI wouldn't be a big issue for UNH (or say Delaware, Albany or any other public university).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If America East were to start football, would anyone move there? They already have Albany, Stony Brook, New Hampshire, and Maine. Delaware and JMU are still FBS flight risks, but maybe they could add Towson for all-sports and then Villanova for football only.

If they took their ball and "went home", what happens next with the "CAA football conference" would be awfully interesting.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Then maybe you should write one of your blogs about the details of the AI because as I understand it from posters on this forum, it definitely would be a huge issue. Those bands that I've seen described would have a significant impact. Haven't the Fordham folks complained that the low end of the Patriot AI bands are higher than the low end of the Fordham student body bands? If W&M, Richmond and/or Villanova are bringing in football players that don't meet the AI or even fall outside their regular student body range yet still meet all APR standards and have graduation rates that please the respective schools, why would they want to be restricted by an AI? (For the record, I have no idea if any of these schools admit football players with grades and test scores below the student body range.)

You've pontificated on only applying the Patriot AI to the out of state players at UNH. We'll forget for the moment that on average only one incoming recruit per year given a scholarship is from NH. (In-state kids tend to be walk-ons who then earn a partial of full scholarship during their eligibility.) As far as I've seen, UNH recruits football players with grades and scores that fit within the entire student body. While that is a Patriot tenet, the GPA and SAT/ACT bands of Patriot schools is higher than UNH. Without doing research I don't know where the bottom of the AI intersects the UNH range, but common sense tells me there is a significant range of UNH students that don't fall into the Patriot AI bands. And there have to be many football players who would fall into that range. I truly don't understand how the AI wouldn't be a big issue for UNH (or say Delaware, Albany or any other public university).

Your summation is right-in in terms of the AI for UNH. The premise was: since more than 70% (conservatively) of the UNH football players are out-of-state, only apply the AI to those out-of-state athletes and have some sort of "exception" for in-state kids, maybe to allow them to be anywhere from the AI floor and up (though I just thought of that just now). UNH is unique in that in many ways it's like a private school: while it has it's in-state charter, many (most?) of its students come from out-of-state, so it's more selective.

For W&M this breaks down. You can easily field many, many teams with VA recruits alone.

Fordham folks complained about the AI squeezing the school into needing the academic profile of its football team to have higher AI-ranked kids than its class profile at one time, this is true. However, the complaint was twofold. It wasn't the AI per se - it was the fact that the AI forced the higher academic profile plus the kids needed to go through the financial aid office to determine need-basis. Since going to conventional scholarships four years ago, the academic profile of Fordham athletes in general has gone up, and there hasn't been any issues with meeting these numbers or lacking recruits. Furthermore, I haven't heard complaints recently (though I will research again).

One thing I have personally noticed is: before going to scholarships, Fordham rarely got kids from the NYC area. Now they get them on a regular basis. Whether its scholarships, coaching, grassroots efforts, I don't know, but that should be mentioned.

Don't worry. The six page Sunday LFN spread on this is coming soon. The chance to see smoke emanating from P4L's ears is too great not to pass up.

[PAllen]

The talk about Army and Navy is merely chum in the water. The idea that either academy will ever schedule a game with a team from Washington or Lewisburg is nonexistent.

Why not Bucknell? Sure it's been 18 years or so, but I don't see Army shying away from Bucknell. Now Navy, well that game hasn't' been played since the 1920s. Honestly, if Georgetown were a counter, they'd easily get games against the academies regularly.

[PAllen]

But yet to be proven is if having 60 players on athletic scholarship ....who had to meet the AI.... is nationally competitive or not.

Yeah, god forbid we require that recruits have a good chance of graduating with a meaningful degree.

[PAllen]

If the NCAA would simply do the right thing by giving Division I student athletes 5 years to play 5 seasons, the whole issue could be avoided.

And why is that the right thing?

[Pard4Life]

I am a PL fan, you leihigh guys just can't seem to get over yourselves, NEWS FLASH: The PL is not YET respected nationaly AND LU is not nearly as good as you all seem to think they are!!!!
Outside of a few other LU boys I'm pretty sure that UNDER ONE % of the posters on this board would agree with you about national respect!!!!!!!!!!!

xlolx xlmaox

[Pard4Life]

This thread is quickly devolving into xslapfightx

[PAllen]

There is also a little upstate NY school named Colgate that has won a few games, too.

Nah, you were one and out this year, therefore you must be irrelevant. xsmiley_wix

[Nova09]

This thread is quickly devolving into xslapfightx

This thread was only created for that purpose. A bunch of rumors with no facts behind them, citing only another message board? I guess 8 pages in a day means the bait was gobbled up.

[HailSzczur]

I go a week without a laptop and I come back to this??? Time to sift through 8 pages of this crap.

I have yet to hear any of this from any one of the Nova side of things.....

[Tribe4SF]

I have yet to hear any of this from any one of the Nova side of things.....

But you've got mpls to tell what the deal is at Nova. Why would we need to hear from you?

[Ivytalk]

Boy, this is one LONG off-season!:D

[Anovafan]

Ok, I'll give my two cents. I think Villanova football to the Patriot league will happen.....eventually. If one or two more dominoes fall around them it will happen sooner rather than later. But for now, say the next 3-4 years without a few other schools making moves, it won't happen.

[Go...gate]

I go a week without a laptop and I come back to this??? Time to sift through 8 pages of this crap.

I have yet to hear any of this from any one of the Nova side of things.....

The Patriot League is annexing Villanova. xthumbsupx

[Lehigh'98]

xlolx xlmaox


We may overrate ourselves a bit, no need to worry about that happening with the Pards though...Congrats

[Sader87]

Ok, I'll give my two cents. I think Villanova football to the Patriot league will happen.....eventually. If one or two more dominoes fall around them it will happen sooner rather than later. But for now, say the next 3-4 years without a few other schools making moves, it won't happen.

Agreed...it just makes way too much sense geographically, institutionally etc. The CAA schools are primarily larger state universities...VU has much more in common with the schools in the PL. I envision Richmond and W&M ultimately joining a newly configured SoCon. The CAA will ultimately morph into something along the lines of an American East football conference.

[carney2]

Nonsense.

There is no requirement that all degree coursework must be completed in 4 years. You simply spread those credits out over 5 years and perhaps take a few extra classes that ultimately don't contribute to the degree requirements.

This is hardly rocket science.

But to you apparently reading IS rocket science. What you propose is, as I described it, an athletic motivated disruption to the traditional four year college education.

[Saint3333]

In a little over a year Nova went from going to the Big East to now this rumor, yikes.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The chance to see smoke emanating from P4L's ears is too great to pass up.

If only I had a picture of P4L. The Photoshop opportunity here is magnificent.

[HailSzczur]

Agreed...it just makes way too much sense geographically, institutionally etc. The CAA schools are primarily larger state universities...VU has much more in common with the schools in the PL. I envision Richmond and W&M ultimately joining a newly configured SoCon. The CAA will ultimately morph into something along the lines of an American East football conference.

If there's a CAA we are in it. I say this to everyone, our school tends to forget we have football team, they're not going to pick up and move us to the PL. The only speck of football vision we had was after we won the NC in '09 and thought the BE would want us. Once that fell through we have no plans. Wake this thread up if and when the CAA ever collapses, I'm sure MPLS, LFN, and TempleOwl will we chomping at the bit.

[SUPharmacist]

There is no such thing as an academic statistic in regards to how many students graduate in four years....because no one with any sense gives a rat's turd about such a pointless measure!


Are we even possibly considering an idea that someone who takes an extra semester to finish their degree requirements because...any number of personal reasons.... isn't as "good" as someone who finishes in exactly four years!?!
.

If an individual does not have good scholarships they care an awful lot about the difference between four or five years. Tuition is not cheap, then factor in another year you don't make full wages.

[bluehenbillk]

Nova to the PL is an old rumor & one that no longer makes any sense. When the PL was a non-scholarship league the idea had some merit as VU could shed expenses as their program has swam in the deep red ever since it was resurrected. Now that the PL will have scholarships the move idea is dead.

Nothing to see here, please move along.

[UAalum72]

What does it matter?????

There is no such thing as an academic statistic in regards to how many students graduate in four years....because no one with any sense gives a rat's turd about such a pointless measure!
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

[van]

Seems to me that there is one small advantage to the "no red shirting" rule in the new scholarship PL. Spreading 60 over 4 years vs 60 over 5 years. Comments?

[rokamortis]

Seems to me that there is one small advantage to the "no red shirting" rule in the new scholarship PL. Spreading 60 over 4 years vs 60 over 5 years. Comments?

I think the easiest way to look at it is 60 per year. Regardless of how many years the student can be campus, the college will only be able to award 60 scholarships annually.

The advantage you have without redshirting is that you have access to all scholarship athletes every year. If you redshirt then there will be some scholarship athletes who can not participate. You also give students more of a share of the 60 scholarships since you won't have to spread it amongst another recruiting class.

The disadvantage you have is that the players will not have an extra year to mature, practice, train, and learn the system.

I don't know if this is an advantage or disadvantage, I think the argument could be made for both, but with redshirting you are allowing an athlete to spread out the coursework over 5 years thus hopefully allowing them time to easier balance academics and athletics.

Will the PL allow medical redshirts?

[PAllen]

I think the easiest way to look at it is 60 per year. Regardless of how many years the student can be campus, the college will only be able to award 60 scholarships annually.

The advantage you have without redshirting is that you have access to all scholarship athletes every year. If you redshirt then there will be some scholarship athletes who can not participate. You also give students more of a share of the 60 scholarships since you won't have to spread it amongst another recruiting class.

The disadvantage you have is that the players will not have an extra year to mature, practice, train, and learn the system.

I don't know if this is an advantage or disadvantage, I think the argument could be made for both, but with redshirting you are allowing an athlete to spread out the coursework over 5 years thus hopefully allowing them time to easier balance academics and athletics.

Will the PL allow medical redshirts?

Yes. It has in the past and I don't see that changing under the new rule. Now, if someone tried to "medical" redshirt 15 kids a year, that would be a different story.

[GannonFan]

Nova to the PL is an old rumor & one that no longer makes any sense. When the PL was a non-scholarship league the idea had some merit as VU could shed expenses as their program has swam in the deep red ever since it was resurrected. Now that the PL will have scholarships the move idea is dead.

Nothing to see here, please move along.

Agree with this. The PL was always about cuttting costs for nova, so if they can't cut costs by going there, why would they? Once Talley is retired or dead, nova football is likely retired or dead as well. With FBS football permanently off the radar there's no way for nova to ever reverese the drain football has on the coffers there. And eventually the basketball money will slip as well - the new Big East is a nice alternate to what they've had, but it's still going to be less money in the future, so that further lessens the cushion football has to operate. Going to the PL would also mean abandoning the UD series, which is the only game other than Parents Day that sells any tickets. Even if they went to the PL, they wouldn't go there to compete, it would be more of a Georgetown-like existence and they'd be a shell of what they were/are competitively in the CAA. I still have money down on them dropping football before they'd go to the PL, and even then they still might drop football anyway.

[MplsBison]

But to you apparently reading IS rocket science. What you propose is, as I described it, an athletic motivated disruption to the traditional four year college education.

You're too late, by quite a margin.

Most students don't take 120 credits in 8 semesters anymore. (or equivalent for silly trimesters/quarters)


And there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. In fact, it's the way it should be. Four years is as arbitrary as anything.

[MplsBison]

If there's a CAA we are in it. I say this to everyone, our school tends to forget we have football team, they're not going to pick up and move us to the PL. The only speck of football vision we had was after we won the NC in '09 and thought the BE would want us. Once that fell through we have no plans. Wake this thread up if and when the CAA ever collapses, I'm sure MPLS, LFN, and TempleOwl will we chomping at the bit.

As I said, my motivation for the end of the CAA FC is nothing more than to stick it to Delaware. But in order for this to really happen, it will require Delaware to get a soft landing in a conference like the MAC or a combination of the MAC and CAA (non-football conf).

What happens to Nova football is basically inconsequential, now that your primary conference is the Catholic Big East.

[MplsBison]

Nova to the PL is an old rumor & one that no longer makes any sense. When the PL was a non-scholarship league the idea had some merit as VU could shed expenses as their program has swam in the deep red ever since it was resurrected. Now that the PL will have scholarships the move idea is dead.

Nothing to see here, please move along.

PL was never a non-scholarship league! Ask the NCAA.

Schools like Lehigh and Colgate were giving money to 50 or so players that was only available to football players (not available to regular students).

Because the amount of aid they received was based on need, they basically lied and said it was non-scholarship.

[carney2]

Seems to me that there is one small advantage to the "no red shirting" rule in the new scholarship PL. Spreading 60 over 4 years vs 60 over 5 years. Comments?

Good catch but the no redshirting rule in the Patriot League is still about denying a competitive advantage to schools with graduate programs.

[Franks Tanks]

PL was never a non-scholarship league! Ask the NCAA.

Schools like Lehigh and Colgate were giving money to 50 or so players that was only available to football players (not available to regular students).

Because the amount of aid they received was based on need, they basically lied and said it was non-scholarship.

The PL never really used the non-scholarship moniker. It was usually brought up by others.

You are correct is saying that PL football in the need based financial aid days wasn't really cheap. PL teams spent pretty much the same on football as middle of the pack CAA teams. For example I recall that Fordham spent more on football than Hofstra, even when Fordham was need based aid. Nova would probably save some money by moving to the PL (it it's current or former set-up), but the savings would be more along the lines of 10-20% of the current budget not 50% or greater.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Good catch but the no redshirting rule in the Patriot League is still about denying a competitive advantage to schools with graduate programs.

That may be the justification but the truth is other schools w/o graduate programs (Wofford most notably, VMI I believe, others) have made it work before. Yes, the Folks Running The Patriot League may not see it that way, but the reality is reshirting and a school without a graduate program can indeed work.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL never really used the non-scholarship moniker. It was usually brought up by others.

You are correct is saying that PL football in the need based financial aid days wasn't really cheap. PL teams spent pretty much the same on football as middle of the pack CAA teams. For example I recall that Fordham spent more on football than Hofstra, even when Fordham was need based aid. Nova would probably save some money by moving to the PL (it it's current or former set-up), but the savings would be more along the lines of 10-20% of the current budget not 50% or greater.

Worth mentioning here travel costs, with more games within easy driving distance of the Main Line in PA alone, and Fordham and Georgetown being very easy travel games as well.

Not saying this would happen, but a 7 game conference schedule, the annual game against Penn, an annual game against Delaware, and a game against, say, Pitt/Temple/Army still leaves one OOC game and a schedule filled with games that are very accessible to Nova fans.

Is that more tempting to Nova admins than home-and-homes with Elon - that's the question.

[Franks Tanks]

I have the expense info from the 2011 season (most recent available).

Nova- 5.3 million
Colgate- 4.6
Lehigh- 4.4
Lafayette- 4.3

Nova would be able to reduce their football budget with a move to the PL, but not by a large degree.

[CFBfan]

I have the expense info from the 2011 season (most recent available).

Nova- 5.3 million
Colgate- 4.6
Lehigh- 4.4
Lafayette- 4.3

Nova would be able to reduce their football budget with a move to the PL, but not by a large degree.

I think the Fordham is in the $5mill bracket as well?

[henfan]

I have the expense info from the 2011 season (most recent available).

Nova- 5.3 million
Colgate- 4.6
Lehigh- 4.4
Lafayette- 4.3

Nova would be able to reduce their football budget with a move to the PL, but not by a large degree.

Yes, and a move to the PL would also probably assist VU with lowering their revenues to the same degree. How many Wildcat fans would see PL FB as anything other than a competitive step backwards, whether or not that would be the reality?

[MplsBison]

Good catch but the no redshirting rule in the Patriot League is still about denying a competitive advantage to schools with graduate programs.

And of course there is no such thing.

You're making that up.

[MplsBison]

If an individual does not have good scholarships they care an awful lot about the difference between four or five years. Tuition is not cheap, then factor in another year you don't make full wages.

If cost is the concern, then you choose not to play your fifth year. This happens every year at every program, a player who forgoes his 5th year with the team knowing he won't play a lot, has finished his degree requirements, does not want to extend his undergraduate status and does not or can not start a graduate degree at that school.

Doesn't mean everyone else should be pigeonholed into only 4 years.

[MplsBison]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

From your link:

"Most students enter college with a four-year plan, but changing or adding majors, retaking classes, or taking time off for personal reasons can quickly extend that plan to five or even six years. While getting the most out of your college experience is important, taking additional semesters to earn your degree often means paying more in tuition and fees."


As I said, it's an absolutely extraneous, tangential topic in the discussion of academic quality. It doesn't matter a rat's turd if half the students take an extra semester to complete their degree requirements.

[MplsBison]

That may be the justification but the truth is other schools w/o graduate programs (Wofford most notably, VMI I believe, others) have made it work before. Yes, the Folks Running The Patriot League may not see it that way, but the reality is reshirting and a school without a graduate program can indeed work.

Or the correct thing to do: just give student athletes 5 years to complete 5 seasons ***IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO THAT***

There would, of course, be nothing stopping any student athlete from simply decided to hang it up after four years and graduate "on time".

[MplsBison]

Worth mentioning here travel costs, with more games within easy driving distance of the Main Line in PA alone, and Fordham and Georgetown being very easy travel games as well.

Not saying this would happen, but a 7 game conference schedule, the annual game against Penn, an annual game against Delaware, and a game against, say, Pitt/Temple/Army still leaves one OOC game and a schedule filled with games that are very accessible to Nova fans.

Is that more tempting to Nova admins than home-and-homes with Elon - that's the question.

It should be. Seems like a very reasonable thing indeed.

[MplsBison]

Yes, and a move to the PL would also probably assist VU with lowering their revenues to the same degree. How many Wildcat fans would see PL FB as anything other than a competitive step backwards, whether or not that would be the reality?

Oh right, because they make so much money on CAA football.

[MplsBison]

I have the expense info from the 2011 season (most recent available).

Nova- 5.3 million
Colgate- 4.6
Lehigh- 4.4
Lafayette- 4.3

Nova would be able to reduce their football budget with a move to the PL, but not by a large degree.

How does tuition at Nova compare to tuition at Patriots? If it's about the same, then the Patriot expenses will rise up to meet Nova once those schools are awarding 60 scholarships vs. 50 scholarship equivalencies.

The rest of the difference could perhaps be in coaching salaries and travel.

[Franks Tanks]

How does tuition at Nova compare to tuition at Patriots? If it's about the same, then the Patriot expenses will rise up to meet Nova once those schools are awarding 60 scholarships vs. 50 scholarship equivalencies.

The rest of the difference could perhaps be in coaching salaries and travel.

Tuition is virtually the same (a few grand one way or the other).

[MplsBison]

Tuition is virtually the same (a few grand one way or the other).

Right, so probably the only reason Nova is higher than Lehigh is because of 63 scholarships vs. 50 scholarship equivalencies.

I'm guessing coaching pay is equivalent and travel costs might be $200k more at Nova, not sure.

[Pard4Life]

If only I had a picture of P4L. The Photoshop opportunity here is magnificent.

... you don't need to Photoshop a photo when it's authentic...

[van]

How does tuition at Nova compare to tuition at Patriots? If it's about the same, then the Patriot expenses will rise up to meet Nova once those schools are awarding 60 scholarships vs. 50 scholarship equivalencies.

The rest of the difference could perhaps be in coaching salaries and travel.

They will only rise if the schools choose to award 60 equivalencies and 60 is more than currently awarded. Interesting that Pards so near to Colgate and Lehigh in spending with all the moaning about how few equivalencies were being used.

[DFW HOYA]

How does tuition at Nova compare to tuition at Patriots? If it's about the same, then the Patriot expenses will rise up to meet Nova once those schools are awarding 60 scholarships vs. 50 scholarship equivalencies. The rest of the difference could perhaps be in coaching salaries and travel.

By 2016, the estimated football budgets per school should be:

Fordham: $6.2 million
Colgate: $6.0 million
Lafayette: $5.7 million
Lehigh: $5.6 million
Holy Cross: $5.6 million
Bucknell: $4.9 million
--------
Georgetown: $1.8 million

[MplsBison]

By 2016, the estimated football budgets per school should be:

Fordham: $6.2 million
Colgate: $6.0 million
Lafayette: $5.7 million
Lehigh: $5.6 million
Holy Cross: $5.6 million
Bucknell: $4.9 million
--------
Georgetown: $1.8 million

What do those numbers include for scholarship costs, out of curiosity? 60 times estimated yearly costs?

And 20 times for Georgetown?

[MplsBison]

They will only rise if the schools choose to award 60 equivalencies and 60 is more than currently awarded. Interesting that Pards so near to Colgate and Lehigh in spending with all the moaning about how few equivalencies were being used.

Yes, correct.

Is the PL going to enforce a scholarship floor as well? Or just a 60 ceiling?

[henfan]

Oh right, because they make so much money on CAA football.

Gotta read the written word. I never suggested that VU made money on CAA FB; only that they stand to lose money at a comparable rate to the decrease in expenses with a PL move. Capice?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Interesting that Pards so near to Colgate and Lehigh in spending with all the moaning about how few equivalencies were being used.

I imagine that media production costs take up a chunk of that. Pards take a full television production crew and professional on-air talent to away games.

[carney2]

And of course there is no such thing.

You're making that up.

Yep. You caught me.

[MplsBison]

Gotta read the written word. I never suggested that VU made money on CAA FB; only that they stand to lose money at a comparable rate to the decrease in expenses with a PL move. Capice?

No.

Because it doesn't make sense. Explain.

[MplsBison]

Yep. You caught me.

I'll take that as you forfeiting the argument to me.

Whether it's because you have no knowledge of the situation or just don't want to be drawn into an argument with me -- I don't really care. Same to me.

[ngineer]

Lol....
Just nice to see PL expansion virus has spread. The virus causes premature speculation, embarrassing but not lethal.

I'm glad that's all....(;-)

[RichH2]

Thanks n , glad someone caught it. The sum of my opinion of this thread.

[Franks Tanks]

I imagine that media production costs take up a chunk of that. Pards take a full television production crew and professional on-air talent to away games.

I could be wrong, but I do not believe that is included in the football specific numbers. Unless of course Lafayette is accounting for misc. expenses that other schools do not, we are funded quite well and on par with our competition.

[henfan]

No.

Because it doesn't make sense. Explain.

It makes sense but it helps to have at least a passing understanding of VU FB.

In as simple terms as I can explain, VU fans have never supported CAA/A-10 FB in large numbers for a host of reasons, not the least of which is that FCS FB is a perceptible level below where they've historically competed. They're likely to turn out in even fewer numbers if the perception is that they've taken another step backwards. There is already a segment of VU fans sufficiently miffed that the school didn't make a decision to reclassify when the Big East offer was on the table.

[MplsBison]

It makes sense but it helps to have at least a passing understanding of VU FB.

In as simple terms as I can explain, VU fans have never supported CAA/A-10 FB in large numbers for a host of reasons, not the least of which is that FCS FB is a perceptible level below where they've historically competed. They're likely to turn out in even fewer numbers if the perception is that they've taken another step backwards. There is already a segment of VU fans sufficiently miffed that the school didn't make a decision to reclassify when the Big East offer was on the table.

That specific argument of course makes sense. That's what I figured you meant. But in turn, you don't understand why that does not make sense overall.

As was posted, the Nova football budget is north of 5 million per year. How much money do you think they're actually pull in now from VU football?? I'm talking ticket sales, concession, parking (if there is any), merchandise. Then on top of that there are donations, either from a booster club or just straight up gifts to the football team (either endowed scholarships or plain old gifts of cash).

I'm guessing total input money from outside the program is definitely south of 1 million per year. The rest comes from the school.


So given that, do you understand now why that insignificant amount of input money is not likely to change regardless of the conference VU plays in??

[van]

I imagine that media production costs take up a chunk of that. Pards take a full television production crew and professional on-air talent to away games.

How much of that is spent on the games at multi-purpose field?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It makes sense but it helps to have at least a passing understanding of VU FB.

In as simple terms as I can explain, VU fans have never supported CAA/A-10 FB in large numbers for a host of reasons, not the least of which is that FCS FB is a perceptible level below where they've historically competed. They're likely to turn out in even fewer numbers if the perception is that they've taken another step backwards. There is already a segment of VU fans sufficiently miffed that the school didn't make a decision to reclassify when the Big East offer was on the table.

Who is really looking at it at as a step backward? If UD jumps to FBS the PL is a more attractive option imo. There's several local schools to build rivalries with within a ultra-competitive league.

[CFBfan]

I imagine that media production costs take up a chunk of that. Pards take a full television production crew and professional on-air talent to away games.

well, the Pards save that cost when they're away at the awe-inspiring MSF in DC!

[henfan]

Who is really looking at it at as a step backward? If UD jumps to FBS the PL is a more attractive option imo.

Apparently, Andy Talley and most of the VU people that I count among family, friends & associates. Many 'Cats fans that I know have told me they'd rather VU end FB then 'downgrade' further in the Patriot League. Who at VU do you think would actually support a move to PL and I'm talking about with actual dollars?

UD is not moving to the Patriot League. There's no desire among the dwindling fanbase for a steady diet of PL teams. BTW, have you seen the Hens' pitiful FB GPA?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Apparently, Andy Talley and most of the VU people that I count among family, friends & associates. Many 'Cats fans that I know have told me they'd rather VU end FB then 'downgrade' further in the Patriot League. Who at VU do you think would actually support a move to PL and I'm talking about with actual dollars?

UD is not moving to the Patriot League. There's no desire among the dwindling fanbase for a steady diet of PL teams. BTW, have you seen the Hens' pitiful FB GPA?

If UD and JMU leave the CAA Villanova football will die a slow death. The other schools are simply too fair away, except Towson, to keep people engaged imo.

[MplsBison]

Apparently, Andy Talley and most of the VU people that I count among family, friends & associates. Many 'Cats fans that I know have told me they'd rather VU end FB then 'downgrade' further in the Patriot League. Who at VU do you think would actually support a move to PL and I'm talking about with actual dollars?

UD is not moving to the Patriot League. There's no desire among the dwindling fanbase for a steady diet of PL teams. BTW, have you seen the Hens' pitiful FB GPA?

Congrats on knowing a handful of extremist fans.

I suppose you think all people of Arab descent are terrorists? :/

[henfan]

So given that, do you understand now why that insignificant amount of input money is not likely to change regardless of the conference VU plays in??

Of course it's insignificant, as would be the corresponding 'savings' that would be derived from a move to the PL... as I've already suggested. Where are the real savings to be had with PL scholarship FB? Scholarships? Negligible at best. Travel? Nope.

As the 'Nova fan indicated earlier in this thread, there will likely be no consideration at VU for the PL unless CAA FB collapses. It's probably also not a consideration as long as Andy Talley patrols the sidelines.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Of course it's insignificant, as would be the corresponding 'savings' that would be derived from a move to the PL... as I've already suggested. Where are the real savings to be had with PL scholarship FB? Scholarships? Negligible at best. Travel? Nope.

There would definitely be travel savings. Probably not enough to justify a move on its own, but savings nonetheless.

We agree that football athletic scholarship spending in the PL equals that in the CAA, basically.

[MplsBison]

Of course it's insignificant, as would be the corresponding 'savings' that would be derived from a move to the PL... as I've already suggested. Where are the real savings to be had with PL scholarship FB? Scholarships? Negligible at best. Travel? Nope.

As the 'Nova fan indicated earlier in this thread, there will likely be no consideration at VU for the PL unless CAA FB collapses. It's probably also not a consideration as long as Andy Talley patrols the sidelines.

I'm not concerned about the savings VU would reap in the PL. That's not my dog.

My dog was disproving that VU intakes significant revenue by being a member of the CAA FC in the first place. People who actually donate money to VU football love it and aren't going to stop. Probably the same for most people who actually take time to come to the games and spend money there at the game.

Other than that, all VU football funding comes from the school.

[henfan]

Congrats on knowing a handful of extremist fans.

The only way you could classify them as 'extremists' is that they are among the few who have actually supported VU FB by buying tickets and attending games regularly. I'm relaying the general consensus that I've heard from them and others, as you might understand if you ever actually visited VU Stadium and spoken with their fans.

[MplsBison]

The only way you could classify them as 'extremists' is that they are among the few who have actually supported VU FB by buying tickets and attending games regularly. I'm relaying the general consensus that I've heard from them and others, as you might understand if you ever actually visited VU Stadium and spoken with their fans.

I love it.

You know 'a few people'. You don't personally know even hundreds of VU football fans, let alone thousands. Just stop.

[henfan]

My dog was disproving that VU intakes significant revenue by being a member of the CAA FC in the first place.

Your 'dog' is common knowledge here in the Philadelphia area and an idea with which no one has disagreed. The idea is that there is no compelling reason for VU to join the PL for FB as long as there is CAA FB, competitively or financially, nor would it likely be supported by the majority of their current FB fans.

[MplsBison]

"nor would it likely be supported by the majority of their current FB fans."

Because you know a few fans. Cool story...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I understand the need to keep 'Nova fans interested in the program. I feel that Villanova football supporters would prefer to spend a fall Saturday at Lehigh or Lafayette. Also, games against Fordham or Georgetown allow for nice pre/post game receptions in NYC and DC. Those type of functions tend to keep donors engaged. There's even the Jesuit/Catholic angle with Georgetown, HC and Fordham.

[henfan]

There would definitely be travel savings. Probably not enough to justify a move on its own, but savings nonetheless.

I'll give you that. The travel difference for conference games would also be negligible. Not a whole lot of flights in either league.

[henfan]

"nor would it likely be supported by the majority of their current FB fans."

Because you know a few fans. Cool story...

Versus your opinion, which is based on how many visits to VU Stadium and how many conversations with VU fans? Classic, Mud Duck.

[MplsBison]

Except that I'm not making a positive statement that the majority of fans would take an opinion one way or another.

I'm simply denying your absurd attempt to do that.

[henfan]

You don't have to be on a first name basis with hundreds of VU FB fans to understand why the majority wouldn't support PL FB. It only takes knowledge from experience and the application of common sense, both of which you appear to lack in this regard.

[DFW HOYA]

I understand the need to keep 'Nova fans interested in the program. I feel that Villanova football supporters would prefer to spend a fall Saturday at Lehigh or Lafayette. Also, games against Fordham or Georgetown allow for nice pre/post game receptions in NYC and DC. Those type of functions tend to keep donors engaged. There's even the Jesuit/Catholic angle with Georgetown, HC and Fordham.

Why?

This is part of the myopia that comes out of some of the Pennsylvania PL schools, that there must be no better place than the Lehigh Valley when it comes to sports. By this reasoning, schools like Georgetown and Fordham would be better off ditching basketball and joining in all sports, that RPI and Hopkins need to upgrade right away, and that there's no need to watch ESPN if a game on SE2 is on the air.

Villanova knows all about Lehigh and Lafayette, but a game with Delaware still commands more attention, more fans, and more respect. Playing Penn at Franklin Field or Temple at the Linc means a whole lot more than Holy Cross or Fordham ever will, because blood is thicker than water. Giving up CAA games to play Georgetown in DC would be the fans' equivalent of raising a large white flag over St. Thomas Church.

For the five full time schools that are a part of the PL, it means everything to them, and that's fine. But it's not for everyone.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Why?

This is part of the myopia that comes out of some of the Pennsylvania PL schools, that there must be no better place than the Lehigh Valley when it comes to sports. By this reasoning, schools like Georgetown and Fordham would be better off ditching basketball and joining in all sports, that RPI and Hopkins need to upgrade right away, and that there's no need to watch ESPN if a game on SE2 is on the air.

Villanova knows all about Lehigh and Lafayette, but a game with Delaware still commands more attention, more fans, and more respect. Playing Penn at Franklin Field or Temple at the Linc means a whole lot more than Holy Cross or Fordham ever will, because blood is thicker than water. Giving up CAA games to play Georgetown in DC would be the fans' equivalent of raising a large white flag over St. Thomas Church.

For the five full time schools that are a part of the PL, it means everything to them, and that's fine. But it's not for everyone.

You completely missed the point. My point was the ability to attend more games. It's easier to keep people engaged when they're able to travel with the team and the destinations are reasonably attractive. How many fans does 'Nova bring to Kingston, RI? Albany? Durham, NH? etc?

Villanova football, like all of the Philly schools, need regional rivals to keep their respective fans interested. Office bragging rights matter....

[GannonFan]

I love it.

You know 'a few people'. You don't personally know even hundreds of VU football fans, let alone thousands. Just stop.

It's impossible to know thousands of nova football fans by the simple premise that there aren't even thousands of nova football fans in total.

[GannonFan]

You completely missed the point. My point was the ability to attend more games. It's easier to keep people engaged when they're able to travel with the team and the destinations are reasonably attractive. How many fans does 'Nova bring to Kingston, RI? Albany? Durham, NH? etc?

Villanova football, like all of the Philly schools, need regional rivals to keep their respective fans interested. Office bragging rights matter....

The problem is, nova fans want office bragging rights that come along with, in their minds, playing at the top level of the sport in question and excelling at it. Hence why nova fans will talk basketball and will never talk football. They don't even particualrly like playing PL schools in basketball, why would they be excited about doing it in football? They already think the CAA is beneath where they should be, and going from dreaming of FBS football in the Big East for two decades and now taking road trips to Lewisburg or Hamilton isn't likely to get them excited.

[cmaxwellgsu]

You completely missed the point. My point was the ability to attend more games. It's easier to keep people engaged when they're able to travel with the team and the destinations are reasonably attractive. How many fans does 'Nova bring to Kingston, RI? Albany? Durham, NH? etc?

Villanova football, like all of the Philly schools, need regional rivals to keep their respective fans interested. Office bragging rights matter....

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that NC trophy is the trump card of bragging rights. That's a lot more to brag about than beating crosstown teams in a weaker conference....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that NC trophy is the trump card of bragging rights. That's a lot more to brag about than beating crosstown teams in a weaker conference....

Winning the national title did nothing to increase interest in Villanova football. Beating Temple earlier that year meant more to their fans imo...

[MplsBison]

Winning the national title did nothing to increase interest in Villanova football. Beating Temple earlier that year meant more to their fans imo...

Which actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

Like I've always said: what good is winning a national championship that no one cares about? If the fans don't care that you're playing in the tournament, does it really matter if you win the tournament? Well, it gets you a nice trophy, I guess.

[MplsBison]

Why?

This is part of the myopia that comes out of some of the Pennsylvania PL schools, that there must be no better place than the Lehigh Valley when it comes to sports. By this reasoning, schools like Georgetown and Fordham would be better off ditching basketball and joining in all sports, that RPI and Hopkins need to upgrade right away, and that there's no need to watch ESPN if a game on SE2 is on the air.

Villanova knows all about Lehigh and Lafayette, but a game with Delaware still commands more attention, more fans, and more respect. Playing Penn at Franklin Field or Temple at the Linc means a whole lot more than Holy Cross or Fordham ever will, because blood is thicker than water. Giving up CAA games to play Georgetown in DC would be the fans' equivalent of raising a large white flag over St. Thomas Church.

For the five full time schools that are a part of the PL, it means everything to them, and that's fine. But it's not for everyone.

Of course you'd say that.

This coming from the guy who has doomed Gtown basketball because it will have to play teams that they've been playing since at least the early 1980's.

[HailSzczur]

It's impossible to know thousands of nova football fans by the simple premise that there aren't even thousands of nova football fans in total.

I was reading through this thread and was amazed it took that long for someone to call MPLS out on that stupid statement. I can always count on you GannonFan xthumbsupx

[HailSzczur]

The problem is, nova fans want office bragging rights that come along with, in their minds, playing at the top level of the sport in question and excelling at it. Hence why nova fans will talk basketball and will never talk football. They don't even particualrly like playing PL schools in basketball, why would they be excited about doing it in football? They already think the CAA is beneath where they should be, and going from dreaming of FBS football in the Big East for two decades and now taking road trips to Lewisburg or Hamilton isn't likely to get them excited.

GannonFan is hitting it out of the park.

I was walking to class last year and I passed a tour group going into one of the buildings. The tour guide was talking about athletics and mentioned our football team like this "Yeah our football team just won the Division II championship or something like that. We don't play the big teams like Penn St or Alabama or Notre Dame, but I think we're pretty good for our level"

No one gets that excited about CAA competition. The reason the Delaware game has any sort of draw is because most students are from PA/NJ/NY/MD/DE and know at least one high school classmate there. The same can't be said for the Richmonds, the Towsons, the ODU's, the Maine's and the rest like it is for Delaware. Thats why the Deleware game has appeal. But even then, its not compelling them to come out in droves. I don't think I saw any other Nova students down in Newark other than the 4 I brought with me, and its only a 45-60 min drive

[HailSzczur]

Winning the national title did nothing to increase interest in Villanova football. Beating Temple earlier that year meant more to their fans imo...

Funny you bring that up. I've had a few discussions with some friends as we sat in the empty student section about how Mayor's Cup rivalry is bad for Villanova. You play a game against a team you already hate from basketball in your own back yard and students want to go. It's the first weekend of school, tailgating is allowed, its the city, it seems awesome. You show up and watch our team get killed 42-7 by a team that you know is bad (relative to the rest of FBS, no offense) and you think "wow my team sucks". Then you come back 2 weeks later and play Fordham in the rain and expect people to be excited? I'm happy we're not playing in our own back yard this year or next year. Maybe out of sight out of mind will help student interest? Maybe they won't realize we've already been beaten by BC. Just my 2 cents.

But you're right, the '09 win in some ways was better than the NC. More people were there to celebrate it and it got us more attention.

[MplsBison]

In what way does that support the position that Nova wants want to stay in the CAA?

[HailSzczur]

In what way does that support the position that Nova wants want to stay in the CAA?

It doesn't. I'm just trying to paint a picture of the landscape here. These PL and UDel guys, while meaning well, don't always get it 100%

The major thing keeping us in the CAA is our sense of neglect or indifference for the football program. It's not that anything is really keeping us in the CAA, its that we're not doing the work to go anywhere else.

[Pard4Life]

The problem is, nova fans want office bragging rights that come along with, in their minds, playing at the top level of the sport in question and excelling at it. Hence why nova fans will talk basketball and will never talk football. They don't even particualrly like playing PL schools in basketball, why would they be excited about doing it in football? They already think the CAA is beneath where they should be, and going from dreaming of FBS football in the Big East for two decades and now taking road trips to Lewisburg or Hamilton isn't likely to get them excited.

For one, this is why the Ivy League will never join the FCS playoffs.

And, it's why you will never get 25,000 at a Lehigh or Lafayette game. It's not the top level. Now, if Lafayette played as an independent against Big Ten-11-14-whatever, SEC, and ACC teams (and had the players for the sake of this example), and was in position for a good bowl game, you would easily get the entire student body, many alums, and a huge number of regional fans at games.... as in 60,000+ at Fisher Field.

At FCS-level, it's not Appalachian State or Montana, where it's rural, isolated, and there is a strong 'tribe' mentality of attaching oneself to where your from and anything football is a big draw.

Many fans, even our own, don't understand this concept as to why, no mater how well Lafayette or Villanova does in football, we cannot pull more fans into the stands. Winning will solve the 'interest' issue, but not entirely.

[MplsBison]

It doesn't. I'm just trying to paint a picture of the landscape here. These PL and UDel guys, while meaning well, don't always get it 100%

The major thing keeping us in the CAA is our sense of neglect or indifference for the football program. It's not that anything is really keeping us in the CAA, its that we're not doing the work to go anywhere else.

So if Delaware leaves, there is no reason to stay in the CAA for Nova.

[Pard4Life]

It doesn't. I'm just trying to paint a picture of the landscape here. These PL and UDel guys, while meaning well, don't always get it 100%

The major thing keeping us in the CAA is our sense of neglect or indifference for the football program. It's not that anything is really keeping us in the CAA, its that we're not doing the work to go anywhere else.

It makes sense... it's incentives. It's all about incentives. Where is the incentive to move to the PL? What will they get out of it? Yeah, institutionally Villanova would be great for the PL and vice-versa, but what ultimately do they get out of it? They will not move unless something material changes i.e. CAA instability, a shift in league alignment and geographic location, invitation from FBS and a will to pump money into football etc...

To take a shot at that Fountain Pigeon blogger (not a malicious one mind you), that is why the other CAA programs will not move to the PL despite the logic of it all and markets etc. W&M and UNH were willing to join the PL because they were unhappy with the direction of the league and ODU, for one. That was their incentive... and it shows you never really know what other programs are thinking.

What is Villanova's current incentive to move to PL football?

[phoenix3]

It makes sense... it's incentives. It's all about incentives. Where is the incentive to move to the PL? What will they get out of it? Yeah, institutionally Villanova would be great for the PL and vice-versa, but what ultimately do they get out of it? They will not move unless something material changes i.e. CAA instability, a shift in league alignment and geographic location, invitation from FBS and a will to pump money into football etc...

To take a shot at that Fountain Pigeon blogger (not a malicious one mind you), that is why the other CAA programs will not move to the PL despite the logic of it all and markets etc. W&M and UNH were willing to join the PL because they were unhappy with the direction of the league and ODU, for one. That was their incentive... and it shows you never really know what other programs are thinking.

What is Villanova's current incentive to move to PL football?

Didn't Villanova get an offer to join the Big East in football some 3 to4 years ago?

[Pard4Life]

Didn't Villanova get an offer to join the Big East in football some 3 to4 years ago?

I think it was last year, and they were doing a study, with inclinations that it would be a go, but then other conference members complained about stadium capacity... and then the Big East kind of dis-invited them and went with Temple... and then the conference went into panic mode... to be honest, I don't exactly remember the timing or sequence of events... but it was something like that.

[HailSzczur]

Didn't Villanova get an offer to join the Big East in football some 3 to4 years ago?

There was always an open invite to us a UConn, basically contingent on the schools getting their act together. 2009 rolls around, we win a NC, and the Athletic Department and 1 or 2 people in the BE offices notice. On our NC high we decide yeah, we'd love to play big time football. BE votes on and they decide PPL isn't big enough for such a premier league as the Big East. Pitt was the most vocal in objecting to PPL. Fast forward a year or so, all the teams who objected left and the Big East folds.

Then the PL faithful all jumped on the Nova to PL bandwagon and the Delaware fans jumped up the Nova to drop football bandwagon.

In the end the BE did throw $2 mil at us for facilities upgrades as sort of a "don't bother us again"

Thats the jist of what happened.

[DFW HOYA]

To take a shot at that Fountain Pigeon blogger (not a malicious one mind you), that is why the other CAA programs will not move to the PL despite the logic of it all and markets etc.

So, if the "logic of it all" drove the discussion, what if the CAA started to pursue PL teams for expansion?

[PAllen]

Yes, and a move to the PL would also probably assist VU with lowering their revenues to the same degree. How many Wildcat fans would see PL FB as anything other than a competitive step backwards, whether or not that would be the reality?

Interesting point here, I would venture to say that Lehigh and probably Lafayette would bring significantly more fans to Villanova than URI, UNH, Maine, etc. While there may be some lost interest in the fan base (although I question this), would the increase in visiting fans outway the numbers at the gate?

[Seawolf97]

So, if the "logic of it all" drove the discussion, what if the CAA started to pursue PL teams for expansion?

If this did happen the only program I could see jumping to the CAA would be Fordham. The others will maintain the AI and their academic bond and move on. Fordham could keep their other sports in the A-10, play scholarship football in the CAA and recruit as need without any AI issues. They are in the geographic middle of the CAA , represent a piece of the NY market.

[HailSzczur]

Interesting point here, I would venture to say that Lehigh and probably Lafayette would bring significantly more fans to Villanova than URI, UNH, Maine, etc. While there may be some lost interest in the fan base (although I question this), would the increase in visiting fans outway the numbers at the gate?

Delaware, JMU, and even William and Mary draw pretty well. I'm sure Lehigh would out draw teams like UNH, Maine, and Towson, but I don't really know enough about the PL fanbases to guess.

[PAllen]

The only way you could classify them as 'extremists' is that they are among the few who have actually supported VU FB by buying tickets and attending games regularly. I'm relaying the general consensus that I've heard from them and others, as you might understand if you ever actually visited VU Stadium and spoken with their fans.

Honestly, every time I've been to Villanova Stadium it's been pretty empty. I've seen more folks at the MSF than I did at a VU-Maine game a few years ago.

[HailSzczur]

Honestly, every time I've been to Villanova Stadium it's been pretty empty. I've seen more folks at the MSF than I did at a VU-Maine game a few years ago.

We usually get around 7k depending on the weather and opponent. Parents weekend and Delaware games are usually sell outs or close to it. Homecoming and JMU will usually be in the 10k ballpark.

That was the Maine game in the snow in '11 was it? If so that was an anomaly for that reason

[PAllen]

We usually get around 7k depending on the weather and opponent. Parents weekend and Delaware games are usually sell outs or close to it. Homecoming and JMU will usually be in the 10k ballpark.

That was the Maine game in the snow in '11 was it? If so that was an anomaly for that reason

No, it was a few years before that, but it was raining. I'm not arguing for replacing Delaware with Bucknell. That would be idiotic. I'm surprised by the JMU turn out, but good for you/them.

Long story short, Nova isn't going anywhere unless they have to, or its FBS somehow. The only way the PL makes sense is if they get to keep the Delaware game. If JMU bolts, that's added incentive for a move, but probably not enough. The PL makes a lot of sense for Villanova for FB only (well, maybe lacrosse and a few other non-revenue sports), but there is a huge amount of inertia that would have to move to make it happen. I honestly believe that PL FB would have a good chance of revitalizing VU FB. It would certainly give them a better shot than the slow death they are staring in the face right now. However, if Nova doesn't want in the league, I don't want them there.

[Go...gate]

It doesn't. I'm just trying to paint a picture of the landscape here. These PL and UDel guys, while meaning well, don't always get it 100%

The major thing keeping us in the CAA is our sense of neglect or indifference for the football program. It's not that anything is really keeping us in the CAA, its that we're not doing the work to go anywhere else.

Inertia can be a very strong force.

[Go...gate]

I think it was last year, and they were doing a study, with inclinations that it would be a go, but then other conference members complained about stadium capacity... and then the Big East kind of dis-invited them and went with Temple... and then the conference went into panic mode... to be honest, I don't exactly remember the timing or sequence of events... but it was something like that.

IMO, I think Villanova got screwed on that one by Pitt and at least one other school which has now, ironically, left the Big East (Rutgers?).

[HailSzczur]

IMO, I think Villanova got screwed on that one by Pitt and at least one other school which has now, ironically, left the Big East (Rutgers?).

Oh without a doubt we got screwed over. To have the 2 most vocal opponents (Pitt and Rutgers) bolt within months of striking us down was terrible. But in retrospect we're better off, at least from a basketball perspective, which is what the administration is concerned about.

Personally I believe the New Big East/Catholic 7 conference is a much better place to be than the leftovers that formed the AAC. I will take GTown/Quette/Creighton/Xavier/Butler/St. John over Cincy/Memphis/UConn/Temple. Plus with New Big East comes a great deal ofstability, unlike the AAC where members like UConn and Cincy in the AAC keep looking at the door

[van]

Honestly, every time I've been to Villanova Stadium it's been pretty empty. I've seen more folks at the MSF than I did at a VU-Maine game a few years ago.

I attended when Lehigh played Nova a few years back, as I recall it seemed like a decent crowd, although my memory ain't what it used to be. Suspect that Lehigh, Lafayette, G-town and Fordham would travel well to Nova. Don't know that Nova fans travel well anywhere except maybe to Newark.

[centraljerseycat]

It turned out to be a blessing in disguise. It would have been a financial disaster had we been voted in three years ago then spend millions of dollars to upgrade only to have Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers and WVU bolt.

You think Villanova football fans don't show up for Maine and Towson. They're not showing up for East Carolina and Tulane either. Not to mention the AAC is a much crappier hoops league.

I like the New Big East for hoops and I'll take either CAA or Patriot for football. Let Talley decide the conference. He's earned that right.

[Sitting Bull]

If this did happen the only program I could see jumping to the CAA would be Fordham. The others will maintain the AI and their academic bond and move on. Fordham could keep their other sports in the A-10, play scholarship football in the CAA and recruit as need without any AI issues. They are in the geographic middle of the CAA , represent a piece of the NY market.

Excellent point regarding who should/could be poaching who. Nova moving from CAA to PL to me is like expecting they move their basketball to the A10. Closer rivals, yes, but why move from a higher profile league to another if you're committing to field a team?

Would love to see the CAA approach Lehigh, they could be a good fit. Fordham had more interest in the CAA (football only) then the CAA had with them.

[MplsBison]

Oh without a doubt we got screwed over. To have the 2 most vocal opponents (Pitt and Rutgers) bolt within months of striking us down was terrible. But in retrospect we're better off, at least from a basketball perspective, which is what the administration is concerned about.

Personally I believe the New Big East/Catholic 7 conference is a much better place to be than the leftovers that formed the AAC. I will take GTown/Quette/Creighton/Xavier/Butler/St. John over Cincy/Memphis/UConn/Temple. Plus with New Big East comes a great deal ofstability, unlike the AAC where members like UConn and Cincy in the AAC keep looking at the door

But just to be play devil's advocate, would it have been worth it to see Nova playing those teams in football at PPL Park?

And by "those teams" I'm not talking about the departed schools (Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse..) I'm talking about the teams that are "stuck" in the AAC for the foreseeable future (UConn, Cincy, USF, Temple, Memphis...).

[DFW HOYA]

Would love to see the CAA approach Lehigh, they could be a good fit.

That's the kind of move that would send LFN and the Lehigh Valley press corps into DEFCON mode, because of a dangerous clause lurking in the PL bylaws--if anyone other than Fordham or Georgetown decided to leave, the PL drops football as a sponsored sport because it requires five full sport members. That either needs to be changed outright or a full time member added, which wouldn't be Villanova.

[Go Green]

For one, this is why the Ivy League will never join the FCS playoffs.

That really isn't the reason. We compete in the NCAA playoffs in basketball and baseball and are lucky to win a single game most years.

The Ivy football post-season ban has a long history. It started with good intentions--didn't want to support segregation in the south's bowl games, didn't want players missing two weeks' worth of class time to travel to California, saw football getting out of hand, etc. Those justifications no longer exist (and haven't for some time), but the "no postseason football" has become so ingrained in the Ivy presidents' mentality that it's hard to shake. I believe we will join evenutally, and will probably do as well as the PL has done up to this point- win a game now and then, and once in a while a special team makes a good run into playoffs.

[LUHawker]

Would love to see the CAA approach Lehigh, they could be a good fit. Fordham had more interest in the CAA (football only) then the CAA had with them.

Unless there is suddenly massive disruption to the college football landscape, there is a 0% chance that Lehigh goes to the CAA for football.

[MplsBison]

I think it'd be a lot easier for Ivy to justify post season if there was a single DI football division (no sub-divisions) and any team within could accept any post season invitation opportunity.

So the Ivy champion could play in a bowl game against Northwestern in Chicago or Stanford in the Bay Area, so long as both teams met some minimum post season requirement (7 wins, whatever).

[Nova09]

How is this thread maintaining its momentum this long? I guess if everybody's in the mood to prognosticate I'll throw some talking points out there:

Bucknell might want to cut costs and join the Pioneer.

Holy Cross might want some Catholic allies and join the NEC.

JMU could be fed up with the CAA and join the OVC.

New Hampshire might see FCS in the northeast dying and just become DIII all sports.

[Nova09]

Side note, Mpls congrats on getting down to 1 red bar. I gave you rep on a random comment cuz I like what you bring to the boards and you deserve to be in the green.

[Fordham]

Excellent point regarding who should/could be poaching who. Nova moving from CAA to PL to me is like expecting they move their basketball to the A10. Closer rivals, yes, but why move from a higher profile league to another if you're committing to field a team?

Would love to see the CAA approach Lehigh, they could be a good fit. Fordham had more interest in the CAA (football only) then the CAA had with them.

Where did you get your Fordham CAA info from?

[MplsBison]

Side note, Mpls congrats on getting down to 1 red bar. I gave you rep on a random comment cuz I like what you bring to the boards and you deserve to be in the green.

I used to have three green blocks, but a few months ago an NDSU alumni on here single-handedly took me to I think two red and I've been slowly digging out since he gave up.

Think about that for a second. You have to give reputation to five other posters before you can come back to give (or take) reputation from the same person. And every reputation has to be a from a different post.

So this friggin' guy...literally spent hours of his life going around giving reputation so that he could come back to an index of my posts and start walking down the line, neg repping every single one.

Not just that, but the guy would enter a comment on almost every one!


Makes me smile at the thought of some old, curmudgeon up in bumsville North Dakota hunched over his 15 year old computer running IE 6.0, manually navigating in a single window to all these different posts.

:)

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It turned out to be a blessing in disguise. It would have been a financial disaster had we been voted in three years ago then spend millions of dollars to upgrade only to have Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers and WVU bolt.

You think Villanova football fans don't show up for Maine and Towson. They're not showing up for East Carolina and Tulane either. Not to mention the AAC is a much crappier hoops league.

I like the New Big East for hoops and I'll take either CAA or Patriot for football. Let Talley decide the conference. He's earned that right.

Based on what? UConn has 3 national titles in the last 15 years while a Big East team hasn't won one in nearly 30 years. Plus, the AAC is home to the best women's program in the country. The group of UConn, Cincy, Temple and Memphis is every bit as good as the top 4 in the new Big East. The bottom of both conferences stink equally.

[GannonFan]

Based on what? UConn has 3 national titles in the last 15 years while a Big East team hasn't won one in nearly 30 years. Plus, the AAC is home to the best women's program in the country. The group of UConn, Cincy, Temple and Memphis is ever bit as good as the top 4 in the new Big East. The bottom of both conferences stink equally.

I agree with this actually. There's no real reason right now to think that the new Big East is any better of a conference than the AAC - both conferences are big steps down from what the old Big East was, and both will slide into the hierarchy below the big conferences and probably along with or a little above the current A10. But there's a lot of crap in both conferences that isn't much to crow about.

[MplsBison]

I agree with this actually. There's no real reason right now to think that the new Big East is any better of a conference than the AAC - both conferences are big steps down from what the old Big East was, and both will slide into the hierarchy below the big conferences and probably along with or a little above the current A10. But there's a lot of crap in both conferences that isn't much to crow about.

How would you rate the Catholic Big East and AAC relative to the Mountain West?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

How would you rate the Catholic Big East and AAC relative to the Mountain West?

The Mountain West does well in the regular season but their tournament performances have been pitiful. They completely puked on themselves this year.

Going into next season the three conferences should be pretty even. Each should have 3 or 4 preseason top 25 teams with a couple more being tourney worthy.

AAC
1. Memphis
2. UConn
3. Cincy
4. Temple

Big East
1. Villanova
2. Creighton
3. Georgetown
4. St. John's

MWC
1. SDSU
2. New Mexico
3. Colorado St
4. UNLV

[MplsBison]

You can say that again. I was so high on the MWC teams, I think I picked every single one in the first round. Fail.

But it seems like SDSU, UNLV and New Mexico always hang out in the top 25. Now Colorado St is there too. And this past season, early on you had teams like Wyoming and Boise looking like they could do something.

Then don't forget programs like Air Force and Nevada were good not too long ago.


Marquette and Butler aren't your top 4 for the BE? I honestly don't know...just saw the last part of a good tourny game between them.

[Babar]

That really isn't the reason. We compete in the NCAA playoffs in basketball and baseball and are lucky to win a single game most years.

The Ivy football post-season ban has a long history. It started with good intentions--didn't want to support segregation in the south's bowl games, didn't want players missing two weeks' worth of class time to travel to California, saw football getting out of hand, etc. Those justifications no longer exist (and haven't for some time), but the "no postseason football" has become so ingrained in the Ivy presidents' mentality that it's hard to shake. I believe we will join evenutally, and will probably do as well as the PL has done up to this point- win a game now and then, and once in a while a special team makes a good run into playoffs.

I think we're headed the other direction (as we have been for half a century.) The trend is toward more restrictions on football, not fewer. Such as the two-contact-practices-per-week rule.

I suspect Princeton's new president, Chris Eisgruber, is pretty firmly on the side of playoff abstention. Which is not a knock on him: all of our leadership is, and has been for a while.

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2013/05/02/33484/

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You can say that again. I was so high on the MWC teams, I think I picked every single one in the first round. Fail.

But it seems like SDSU, UNLV and New Mexico always hang out in the top 25. Now Colorado St is there too. And this past season, early on you had teams like Wyoming and Boise looking like they could do something.

Then don't forget programs like Air Force and Nevada were good not too long ago.


Marquette and Butler aren't your top 4 for the BE? I honestly don't know...just saw the last part of a good tourny game between them.

Both Marquette and Butler should be tournament teams but I like St. John's and Georgetown better. Lavin has put together two straight awesome recruiting classes which should pay dividends this year. Even without Otto Potter, the Hoya's should again be in the Top 25. Butler needs to figure out away to win on the road.

[Go Green]

Which is not a knock on him: all of our leadership is, and has been for a while.


Dartmouth's Jim Kim was not. He used to don a uniform, paint his face green and white, and carry a flag with a big "D" on it across the sidelines at home games. Really a shame we lost him to the World Bank... :(

Early reports are that his successor likes football, although whether or not he goes to the lengths of Jim Kim remains to be seen.

[Babar]

Dartmouth's Jim Kim was not. He used to don a uniform, paint his face green and white, and carry a flag with a big "D" on it across the sidelines at home games. Really a shame we lost him to the World Bank... :(

Early reports are that his successor likes football, although whether or not he goes to the lengths of Jim Kim remains to be seen.

If you have pictures of the World Bank president painting his face, they need to be posted. Just the thought of this makes my day brighter.

[MplsBison]

Also, please tell me his nickname is "Slim" Jim Kim.

[Go...gate]

I think we're headed the other direction (as we have been for half a century.) The trend is toward more restrictions on football, not fewer. Such as the two-contact-practices-per-week rule.

I suspect Princeton's new president, Chris Eisgruber, is pretty firmly on the side of playoff abstention. Which is not a knock on him: all of our leadership is, and has been for a while.

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2013/05/02/33484/

Are those roster number limitations still in place? At least they sounded like roster number limitations.

[Go Green]

Are those roster number limitations still in place? At least they sounded like roster number limitations.

Not sure roster limitations have changed in the past 30 years. My understanding is that the football teams get 120 "slots" (to various AI bands depending on school) over a 4 year period. Whether or not a team gets 5 walkons or 20 walkons in addition to that, I don't think the league cares.

Former Dartmouth coach and current UNH DC John Lyons has said that he doesn't care about numbers. He cares more about the AI. He said that he'd be happy to exchange fewer slots in return for lower AIs (i.e., 15 slots a year but with more flexibility from admissions). Best I can tell, the Ivy brass isn't interested in doing that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I do remember some new coaching limitations being put into effect by the Ivy sometime within the last four years, i.e. fewer assistant coaches, fewer full-time coaching staff members, something like that.

For the PL roster sizes are changing basically due to conventional scholarships.

[Nova09]

Based on what? UConn has 3 national titles in the last 15 years while a Big East team hasn't won one in nearly 30 years. Plus, the AAC is home to the best women's program in the country. The group of UConn, Cincy, Temple and Memphis is every bit as good as the top 4 in the new Big East. The bottom of both conferences stink equally.

Really? The bottom third of our conferences has 2 teams who could be sleepers to contend for a tourney berth (Provy, SHU) and one awful team (DePaul). Your bottom third has 4 awful teams. In fact, our second to last team (SHU) is better than your 5th to last team. You might be able to argue that your top 4 is as good as our top 4, though I'm not seeing it, but the truth is our 5-8 will all be fighting to make the dance, while your 3-4 will be the only ones discussed on the bubble.

[GannonFan]

Really? The bottom third of our conferences has 2 teams who could be sleepers to contend for a tourney berth (Provy, SHU) and one awful team (DePaul). Your bottom third has 4 awful teams. In fact, our second to last team (SHU) is better than your 5th to last team. You might be able to argue that your top 4 is as good as our top 4, though I'm not seeing it, but the truth is our 5-8 will all be fighting to make the dance, while your 3-4 will be the only ones discussed on the bubble.

Both conferences are going to be in for a rude awakening when it comes to the number of teams getting in. Some of these teams who were "sleepers" last year and this year had the benefit of being pulled up by the high rankings and RPI of the really good teams, most of whom have left both conferences. Without the automatic bump up, even in losses, from an inflated SOS, some of these teams are going to be far out of the discussions when it comes bubble time. The Big East, even in it's heyday, got 9-10 teams in at the most. Neither of the new leagues will get close to that percentage of teams making it in. If they get 5 in that would be an incredible year.

[Nova09]

Both conferences are going to be in for a rude awakening when it comes to the number of teams getting in. Some of these teams who were "sleepers" last year and this year had the benefit of being pulled up by the high rankings and RPI of the really good teams, most of whom have left both conferences. Without the automatic bump up, even in losses, from an inflated SOS, some of these teams are going to be far out of the discussions when it comes bubble time. The Big East, even in it's heyday, got 9-10 teams in at the most. Neither of the new leagues will get close to that percentage of teams making it in. If they get 5 in that would be an incredible year.

I agree, just by numbers it would be ridiculous to expect 7+ out of 10 teams to get in. The losses in conference have to come somewhere. I guess I should rephrase that 7/8 place in the conference can't get in, but what we would list right now as the 7/8 teams in our conference do have a shot to get in. The same can't be said for the AAC.

[carney2]

Oh gawd, it's become a freakin' basketball thread. Does anyone outside of Buffalo, PA really give a crap?! I am officially begging Mr. Administrator to pull the plug on this conversation.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Oh gawd, it's become a freakin' basketball thread. Does anyone outside of Buffalo, PA really give a crap?! I am officially begging Mr. Administrator to pull the plug on this conversation.

Hey carney, there's always lacrosse, ya know. Syracuse, Denver, Cornell and Duke in the Final Four . . . :D

Go Big Red!!!

[Go...gate]

Hey carney, there's always lacrosse, ya know. Syracuse, Denver, Cornell and Duke in the Final Four . . . :D

Go Big Red!!!

Congratulations to Bill Tierney. Princeton lacrosse has been on the decline ever since he left for Denver.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Congratulations to Bill Tierney. Princeton lacrosse has been on the decline ever since he left for Denver.

Many will never forgive him for leaving, but he got a huge payday and he got to bring in his son on the staff. Almost 60 kids now on the Denver roster, the bulk of whom are from the traditional Mid-Atlantic recruiting areas. With just 12.6 equivalencies to give, and in a location where lax has no tradition and is virtually non-existent, I don't know how Tierney does gets that many kids to Denver. Keep in mind that University of Denver is a private school, not public. Some people get it confused with U. of Colorado-Denver. The travel costs must be outrageous because every game except Air Force is a flight.

I have to stand behind Cornell for this one (it's the First Lady's alma mater). Normally I'd back Syracuse because of its historic support of the game. Syracuse, Hobart, Colgate and Cornell, of course, are long-time lax rivals up there where the game was born. Nice to see two upstate schools in the final Four.

And Everybody Hates Duke, of course . . . ;)

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Oh gawd, it's become a freakin' basketball thread. Does anyone outside of Buffalo, PA really give a crap?! I am officially begging Mr. Administrator to pull the plug on this conversation.

Us Big 5 alums do. That's why our respective schools might not have a football team in a few years, lol.....

[Nova09]

Oh gawd, it's become a freakin' basketball thread. Does anyone outside of Buffalo, PA really give a crap?! I am officially begging Mr. Administrator to pull the plug on this conversation.

You have to understand, this thread went 20 pages on a ridiculous premise, so we had to turn the discussion to something relevant. Killed the momentum of baseless rumors dead in its tracks.

[HailSzczur]

Oh gawd, it's become a freakin' basketball thread. Does anyone outside of Buffalo, PA really give a crap?! I am officially begging Mr. Administrator to pull the plug on this conversation.

It's a thread about Villanova's conference alignment and you're surprised we're talking about basketball? Our Athletic department revolves around basketball

[Babar]

Many will never forgive him for leaving, but he got a huge payday and he got to bring in his son on the staff. Almost 60 kids now on the Denver roster, the bulk of whom are from the traditional Mid-Atlantic recruiting areas. With just 12.6 equivalencies to give, and in a location where lax has no tradition and is virtually non-existent, I don't know how Tierney does gets that many kids to Denver. Keep in mind that University of Denver is a private school, not public. Some people get it confused with U. of Colorado-Denver. The travel costs must be outrageous because every game except Air Force is a flight.

I have to stand behind Cornell for this one (it's the First Lady's alma mater). Normally I'd back Syracuse because of its historic support of the game. Syracuse, Hobart, Colgate and Cornell, of course, are long-time lax rivals up there where the game was born. Nice to see two upstate schools in the final Four.

And Everybody Hates Duke, of course . . . ;)

On the other hand, the western colleges get the advantage of recruiting athletes from huge swaths of the country that the east coast ignores. One of the casualties of the much-discussed growth of lacrosse appears to be the eastern stranglehold on talent. And the sport is still undeveloped enough that some natural athleticism and a work ethic can produce a good player. Unlike football and basketball, where kids need to specialize early and play year-round from a young age unless they're absolute athletic specimens or have size way outside the norm.

....yeah, we miss Bill Tierney. :(

[RichH2]

Lehigh has done well recruiting lax in Cal and Tx as well as Canada. Pa,NY,Md,va still most talent per acre.

[van]

Lehigh has done well recruiting lax in Cal and Tx as well as Canada. Pa,NY,Md,va still most talent per acre.

True, but Babar has a valid point. Denver may not have a large pool west of the Appalachians, but they have a lot fewer competitors to recruit against.

[RichH2]

True van. Altho, OSO,Mich picking up. Tierney still recruits east quite well.

[carney2]

And now, lacrosse...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[DFW HOYA]

Not sure what this has to do with the thread. The PL would be a visible step down from which Wildcat football would not recover. All the Nova prople have to do is ask their friends in Worcester how it went.

But as to lacrosse...


Lehigh has done well recruiting lax in Cal and Tx as well as Canada. Pa,NY, Md, va still most talent per acre.

And yet, American has no men's lacrosse program. Neither does George Washington. Or George Mason. Or Howard. Then again, American doesn't seem to sponsor much at all in the PL.

[PAllen]

Not sure what this has to do with the thread. The PL would be a visible step down from which Wildcat football would not recover. All the Nova prople have to do is ask their friends in Worcester how it went.

But as to lacrosse...



And yet, American has no men's lacrosse program. Neither does George Washington. Or George Mason. Or Howard. Then again, American doesn't seem to sponsor much at all in the PL.

Howard would like to if the could ever get their financial house in order.

[Go Green]

But as to lacrosse...

And yet, American has no men's lacrosse program. Neither does George Washington. Or George Mason.

They do at the club level.

http://www.laxpower.com/update12/binmen/XGMUXX.PHP

http://aulacrosse.webs.com/

http://laxteams.net/gwulax/

Not sure why they don't at the varsity level. It's not like their football teams are throwing Title IX numbers out of whack... xconfusedx

[MplsBison]

Not sure what this has to do with the thread. The PL would be a visible step down from which Wildcat football would not recover. All the Nova prople have to do is ask their friends in Worcester how it went.

But as to lacrosse...



And yet, American has no men's lacrosse program. Neither does George Washington. Or George Mason. Or Howard. Then again, American doesn't seem to sponsor much at all in the PL.

Recover from what?

What do they have no in the CAA that's so valuable to the Nova brand?? Just because they'd be in the same football conference as Gtown (for now..) doesn't mean they'd have to ignore football financially the way Gtown does or be as non-competitive nationally as Gtown is.

[Go...gate]

Not sure what this has to do with the thread. The PL would be a visible step down from which Wildcat football would not recover. All the Nova prople have to do is ask their friends in Worcester how it went.

But as to lacrosse...

And yet, American has no men's lacrosse program. Neither does George Washington. Or George Mason. Or Howard. Then again, American doesn't seem to sponsor much at all in the PL.

Disagree. HC only stepped down because they had to drop scholarships after 1992. Had they retained them, they would have remained the national power they had become from 1981 - 1991.

[Pard4Life]

So, with Elon joining CAA and the league stabilizing with balanced membership, we can forget about PL expansion from the CAA i.e. UNH, WM, Richmond, Nova. The end. Fin. Das Ende. Finuto.

... except in the mind of LFN.

[Bogus Megapardus]

... except in the mind of LFN.


Because, as we all realize, LFN secretly thinks that Lehigh has "outperformed" the rest of the Patriot League - and that it's time for the Mountain Muffins to move on.

xprayx xcoffeex xpeacex

[Go...gate]

Clearly, this pours a lot of water on the Villanova-to-the-Patriot-League "fire".

VMI is also off the board with their impending return to the Southern Conference, which leaves the PL with:

Marist, which does not want to be in the PL for football (even though they are a very good "footprint" fit and were much better all-sports fit than Loyola); and

Monmouth, which most of the PL does not want even as a football-only member due to academic concerns.

Did I forget anybody else?

[Tribe4SF]

So, with Elon joining CAA and the league stabilizing with balanced membership, we can forget about PL expansion from the CAA i.e. UNH, WM, Richmond, Nova. The end. Fin. Das Ende. Finuto.

... except in the mind of LFN.

Amen. See you in Easton on Sept. 14. We need payback for one of the most disappointing losses in my 47 years as a part of One Tribe...One Family.

[Sitting Bull]

Clearly, this pours a lot of water on the Villanova-to-the-Patriot-League "fire".

VMI is also off the board with their impending return to the Southern Conference, which leaves the PL with:

Marist, which does not want to be in the PL for football (even though they are a very good "footprint" fit and were much better all-sports fit than Loyola); and

Monmouth, which most of the PL does not want even as a football-only member due to academic concerns.

Did I forget anybody else?

Why not Duquesne, football only?

[CFBfan]

Duquesne? i don't think that games in pittsburgh (amoung other reasons) get PL folks very excited.....

[Sitting Bull]

And Poughkeepsie would?

[CFBfan]

And Poughkeepsie would?

it's a heck of a lot closer to the PL's than Pitts is AND who said anything about Poughkeepsie???

[hebmskebm]

Before they joined the PFL Marist was initially very interested in joining the Patriot. They were turned off by the massively increased financial commitment it would have taken for football. If they've had a change of heart about stepping up the $$$ they could be a possibility again.

[Sitting Bull]

it's a heck of a lot closer to the PL's than Pitts is AND who said anything about Poughkeepsie???

The previous poster who mentioned Marist, that's who. Can't see how Pittsburgh is so off the beaten path when they just added Loyola in Baltimore. Isn't Bucknell in this league?

[van]

And Poughkeepsie would?

Poughkeepsie might look good to Gate, Fordham and Crossers. Doubt that Pittsburgh would be a fun road trip for any of them.

[Babar]

Clearly, this pours a lot of water on the Villanova-to-the-Patriot-League "fire".

VMI is also off the board with their impending return to the Southern Conference, which leaves the PL with:

Marist, which does not want to be in the PL for football (even though they are a very good "footprint" fit and were much better all-sports fit than Loyola); and

Monmouth, which most of the PL does not want even as a football-only member due to academic concerns.

Did I forget anybody else?


Johns Hopkins recently announced that they were going to look into conference affiliation for the first time.

Make it happen, guys.

[Engineer86]

Johns Hopkins recently announced that they were going to look into conference affiliation for the first time.

Make it happen, guys.

Probably because for the first time in almost forever they did not make the Lacrosse tournament and they figure a league affiliation will always give them a strong shot at it. Does Hopkins care about any other sport?

[Babar]

Probably because for the first time in almost forever they did not make the Lacrosse tournament and they figure a league affiliation will always give them a strong shot at it. Does Hopkins care about any other sport?

No, they don't. This is definitely a lacrosse thing. They want to keep all their other sports DIII. I think they're angling for a lacrosse-only membership in the B1G.

[Pard4Life]

Because, as we all realize, LFN secretly thinks that Lehigh has "outperformed" the rest of the Patriot League - and that it's time for the Mountain Muffins to move on.

xprayx xcoffeex xpeacex

And, that the strength and prestige of the Patriot League depends upon how well Lehigh is performing. Because, the strongest years in league history have been since 2010.

[Pard4Life]

Before they joined the PFL Marist was initially very interested in joining the Patriot. They were turned off by the massively increased financial commitment it would have taken for football. If they've had a change of heart about stepping up the $$$ they could be a possibility again.

I've heard that the PL has been holding Marist off, who is itching to join. But their actions certainly don't point towards such a direction.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Johns Hopkins recently announced that they were going to look into conference affiliation for the first time.

Make it happen, guys.

Not only would JHU lacrosse make sense in the PL academically and athletically, with two nearby rivals in Loyola and Navy in-league it would vastly open up their OOC slate to play other schools.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/05/johns-hopkins-and-future-of-independent.html

But PL Lacrosse would be 10 members with Hopkins, a really large number for Lax.

[UAalum72]

If Hopkins wants to join a lacrosse league they'll have to get used to playing on the road; in the last three years they've played only about fourteen road games (out of about 45), most against ACC teams, Syracuse, and Army.

[Franks Tanks]

Probably because for the first time in almost forever they did not make the Lacrosse tournament and they figure a league affiliation will always give them a strong shot at it. Does Hopkins care about any other sport?

Hopkins has a pretty good D-III sports program, but Lax of course is by far the most important sport on campus. Hopkins would be a great addition to D-I and FCS football, but it appears that they have no interest in making the move.

I think Hopkins to the PL for Lax is a possibility, but we may be a 3rd option or below. Based on chatter from the Hopkins crowd the ACC or Big 10 appear to be the front runners. I think they may actually go with the Big 10. The Big 10 is new to Lax and will probably bend over backwards for Hopkins. The ACC will actually be stronger moving forward despite losing Maryland as they will be adding Syracuse and Notre Dame. PSU and OSU are improving rapidly, but the Big 10 will be much easier to win in an average year. Additionally and perhaps most important is the Big 10 network. Since Maryland is coming on board the Big 10 network should be on in the Maryland area. The Big 10 network badly needs content after the basketball season, and they are looking to men's Lax to provide a good deal of it. Hopkins can be on the Big 10 network weekly (if not have every game televised)and that may be important to them. Just my guess, but due to TV time and an easier road to a league title I think the Big 10 is the front runner at this time.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hopkins has a pretty good D-III sports program, but Lax of course is by far the most important sport on campus. Hopkins would be a great addition to D-I and FCS football, but it appears that they have no interest in making the move.

I think Hopkins to the PL for Lax is a possibility, but we may be a 3rd option or below. Based on chatter from the Hopkins crowd the ACC or Big 10 appear to be the front runners. I think they may actually go with the Big 10. The Big 10 is new to Lax and will probably bend over backwards for Hopkins. The ACC will actually be stronger moving forward despite losing Maryland as they will be adding Syracuse and Notre Dame. PSU and OSU are improving rapidly, but the Big 10 will be much easier to win in an average year. Additionally and perhaps most important is the Big 10 network. Since Maryland is coming on board the Big 10 network should be on in the Maryland area. The Big 10 network badly needs content after the basketball season, and they are looking to men's Lax to provide a good deal of it. Hopkins can be on the Big 10 network weekly (if not have every game televised)and that may be important to them. Just my guess, but due to TV time and an easier road to a league title I think the Big 10 is the front runner at this time.

They could provide lots of Lax coverage, but one of the stipulations is that JHU retains its ESPNU contract for lax, which could be a huge sticking point. Lax is similar to FCS football in that ESPN owns all the important coverage lock, stock, and barrel.

This is why I think the PL is a much more possible option than people necessarily think. The CBS Sports Network contract is simply right of first refusal - perhaps they take maybe one Blue Jay lax game and work something out with ESPN to carry the rest. (A real possibility would exist that JHU would have every single game televised nationally.) I think it would be way easier to deal with CBS than the folks at the B1G.

Judging by TV the ACC would be the best option, but there's no longer any of the nearby rivals in the conference now that Maryland is out.

[Bossanova]

You have a better chance of Nova going to the SEC than the Patriot League, at least for the next 5-10 years.

[MplsBison]

You have a better chance of Nova going to the SEC than the Patriot League, at least for the next 5-10 years.

Thanks for that analysis.

[Pard4Life]

Not only would JHU lacrosse make sense in the PL academically and athletically, with two nearby rivals in Loyola and Navy in-league it would vastly open up their OOC slate to play other schools.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/05/johns-hopkins-and-future-of-independent.html

But PL Lacrosse would be 10 members with Hopkins, a really large number for Lax.

No, it does not make sense... for JHU, which matters most to JHU. It is a high-profile program looking for high-profile exposure in a high-profile league. PL lacrosse is great and a top conference, but it has nowhere near the pedigree and cachet of the programs in the ACC and Big Ten, who despite being mainly neophytes, have such an image in every other sport. I think the institutional compatibility issue is much less important than it is being made out to be because JHU is just looking to park just one sport... not all... in a conference. If it were looking to place all of its sports in a conference, then yes, PL would make sense for JHU, but not just for lacrosse.

[Pard4Life]

It's funny we now have a JHU to the PL sub-thread in a Nova to the PL thread... so why not go for the three-peat and...

Holy Cross to the (new) Catholic Big East?!?!

I mean, it makes perfect sense for Holy Cross. They are historically the premier Catholic college in America, and have an excellent basketball tradition, and provide a geographic rival for Providence. It makes perfect sense for HC to join the Big East... xrotatehx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No, it does not make sense... for JHU, which matters most to JHU. It is a high-profile program looking for high-profile exposure in a high-profile league. PL lacrosse is great and a top conference, but it has nowhere near the pedigree and cachet of the programs in the ACC and Big Ten, who despite being mainly neophytes, have such an image in every other sport. I think the institutional compatibility issue is much less important than it is being made out to be because JHU is just looking to park just one sport... not all... in a conference. If it were looking to place all of its sports in a conference, then yes, PL would make sense for JHU, but not just for lacrosse.

Interesting analysis. I know the prevailing thought is that the B1G will win out with some ludicrous TV contract, but I think a more likely scenario is Hopkins joining the ACC, which of course would have zero problem with their ESPN deal (since the ACC is an ESPN shop).

I think the real irony is, if Maryland had stayed in the ACC, a lax group with UNC, Duke, Maryland, Syracuse would have been the slam-dunk solution for the Blue Jays. But without Maryland they lose their biggest rival and suddenly their whole OOC slate is filled with "classic rivals" like Maryland.

[RichH2]

Only saving grace of this thread is that lax is sometimes played on Saturday.

[carney2]

Only saving grace of this thread is that lax is sometimes played on Saturday.

If so, that's the day I mow my lawn.