Fears realized

[fc97]

So, y'all think that government should decide which majors/career paths are most desirable and allocate funding according to the needs of the state?


Sounds pretty socialistic, imo.

well, they already do this. the government grants specific funding for these schools and the schools (being government entities) or the state boards decide what the schools will provide. for instance, nc state, uncc and nc a&t have a different funded focus than say the nc school of the arts or uncp.

what he's saying is really not different than anything else the government does. they are going to let funding levels try to influence what the schools do. this is not different than federal programs that provide funding levels to the states purposely try to drive state policy. you see this with the changes in drinking age to 21, seat belt laws, child safety seat laws, child support laws and so on.

when money talks, action happens.

[CID1990]

Is that like the degree from the citadel allowing you to stock shelves at your local Academy?

Don't try to keep up with me. You not funny.

[fc97]

there's another thing i want to point out. all of this mentality is exactly whats wrong with the government and people today. people expect government to spend money to provide schools the give education ad minimal costs and expect the government to provide all avenues to give the education they want. they also expect to pay virtually nothing in taxes to do so (always tax someone else, always someone richer than you). then when someone goes to try to suggest cuts that may make sense at the time, the arguments come out on why those shouldn't be cut. there always should be something else that should be cut. which means that overall, nothing should happen because someone is always going to be upset about a cut or a tax.

so, what do you do. to spend money wisely, tough decisions have to be made. sorry but people are going to have to make a sacrifice one way or another. its either in higher taxes to pay for everything or cuts that people dont want to cut.

its simple math and economic principals.

[TheRevSFA]

Don't try to keep up with me. You not funny.

Sadly I was being serious.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

there's another thing i want to point out. all of this mentality is exactly whats wrong with the government and people today. people expect government to spend money to provide schools the give education ad minimal costs and expect the government to provide all avenues to give the education they want. they also expect to pay virtually nothing in taxes to do so (always tax someone else, always someone richer than you). then when someone goes to try to suggest cuts that may make sense at the time, the arguments come out on why those shouldn't be cut. there always should be something else that should be cut. which means that overall, nothing should happen because someone is always going to be upset about a cut or a tax.

so, what do you do. to spend money wisely, tough decisions have to be made. sorry but people are going to have to make a sacrifice one way or another. its either in higher taxes to pay for everything or cuts that people dont want to cut.

its simple math and economic principals.

Yes, in a perfect world all schools would be private and only those who can afford to pay can get an education. Bring back the peasant class.

[ASUMountaineer]

Bull. I know exactly how much they are missed. I watched way more of those games in person than you could ever attest to. Your Johnny come lately doesn't apply to the guy that made the statement (me) and on a personal level I'd like to still see em' on the schedule but it doesn't change the fact that them leaving didn't put FCS back and you leaving, GSU leaving etc. also won't be part of the FCS is dying claim which is what my comment addressed in the first place.

Those teams moving on gave teams like App and Montana a better chance at getting a seat at the table and those two teams as well as others filled in just fine in their absense. Same will occur again.

How can I be sure on that? Simple, those same dip**** claims were made by Nevada, Boise, Idaho, and Marshall fans which I talked to pretty frequently in person. Marshall fans in 95 & 96 didn't have a lot of respect for playing teams like App just so you know and showed the same sort of disrespect that some of y'all now exercise. I imagine that is part of the reason that former SoCon mates could give a crap if they fell off the face of the earth.

I agree. The FCS will not die because App State and GSU leave. If the FCS dies, it will be because the NCAA killed it. To me, the NCAA may be the biggest threat to the FCS.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I agree. The FCS will not die because App State and GSU leave. If the FCS dies, it will be because the NCAA killed it. To me, the NCAA may be the biggest threat to the FCS.

Besides the comments from Barry Alvarez, what give anybody the impression that the NCAA is killing FCS?

[fc97]

Yes, in a perfect world all schools would be private and only those who can afford to pay can get an education. Bring back the peasant class.

that's not what i said at all. i said that people want to pay for nothing and expect the world. it simply is not possible long term. private schools show a truer cost of education. theres a lot of overhead in schools, professors expect big pay, research and equipment costs and so on. public schools show the cost of education after lots of government subsidies to offset costs.

the deal is, you cant expect the world unless you are willing to pay for the world. too many people want their cake and eat it too. virtually no taxes, cheap tuition and every avenue possible open. the world simply does not work that way.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I agree. The FCS will not die because App State and GSU leave. If the FCS dies, it will be because the NCAA killed it. To me, the NCAA may be the biggest threat to the FCS.

The NCAA has been killing small schools since the '70's with the Title IX misinterpretation and other Academia nonsense. The Big schools scored a major coup when the courts ruled the NCAA couldn't confiscate their TV revenue. That's how we got here.

[Saint3333]

that's not what i said at all. i said that people want to pay for nothing and expect the world. it simply is not possible long term. private schools show a truer cost of education. theres a lot of overhead in schools, professors expect big pay, research and equipment costs and so on. public schools show the cost of education after lots of government subsidies to offset costs.

the deal is, you cant expect the world unless you are willing to pay for the world. too many people want their cake and eat it too. virtually no taxes, cheap tuition and every avenue possible open. the world simply does not work that way.

Don't bring up math when discussing politically sensitive issues, their heads will explode.

As for bringing back the peasant class, don't worry it's coming as the expense of the death of the middle class.

[ElCid]

I got a news flash for you people who think you have handle on the correlation between someone's major in college and the unemployment rate. Many people may be unemployed because they feel they need to be employed in a field that corresponds to their major. Or they are too stupid to get a job in another field. But here is a key piece of philosophy that will change your life, if you did not already know it. Nobody should go to school (any level) to just learn one topic, or field of study. Oh, everyone will pick up some facts and figures, and concepts in the field they are studying. But I went to school to learn "how to learn." Mainly because I knew my professors were not going to be by my side the rest of my life. Besides I did not want to be reliant on anyone or on any institution when it came to being able to learn new things. Yes, there is a place for formal education and I have had a large amount myself. However, I have also taught myself how to do a huge number of tasks/jobs because I was able to experience and acquire great "learning lessons" in college that I have continued to use my whole life. As an undergrad that got a "liberal arts" education (History) but ended up in a technical field, I have always found that formal undergrad education is, in many cases, nothing more than a box to be checked. Yup, it is anecdotal to be sure. But I am not the exception. For those of you who have been around for a while in a career, you know what I am talking about. I know many engineers who make great managers and can even write fairly well. And I know lots of English majors who can solve sticky logistics issues. But I also know engineers who write on an 8th grade level. And I know Poli-sci majors who can't even get the copier to work properly. Those two last examples are those that will make up the bulk of the unemployment figures. They are the ones that had a narrow education and never learned how to "learn on their own."

Now throw in politicians of any political tilt when it comes to making decisions on funding education or athletics and they are bound to screw it up. The true long term benefits of education and athletic participation never have been about money. As long as people continue to place the financial aspects above all others, it will remain screwed up. Maybe an outdated view, but I'll keep it thanks.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I got a news flash for you people who think you have handle on the correlation between someone's major in college and the unemployment rate. Many people may be unemployed because they feel they need to be employed in a field that corresponds to their major. Or they are too stupid to get a job in another field. But here is a key piece of philosophy that will change your life, if you did not already know it. Nobody should go to school (any level) to just learn one topic, or field of study. Oh, everyone will pick up some facts and figures, and concepts in the field they are studying. But I went to school to learn "how to learn." Mainly because I knew my professors were not going to be by my side the rest of my life. Besides I did not want to be reliant on anyone or on any institution when it came to being able to learn new things. Yes, there is a place for formal education and I have had a large amount myself. However, I have also taught myself how to do a huge number of tasks/jobs because I was able to experience and acquire great "learning lessons" in college that I have continued to use my whole life. As an undergrad that got a "liberal arts" education (History) but ended up in a technical field, I have always found that formal undergrad education is, in many cases, nothing more than a box to be checked. Yup, it is anecdotal to be sure. But I am not the exception. For those of you who have been around for a while in a career, you know what I am talking about. I know many engineers who make great managers and can even write fairly well. And I know lots of English majors who can solve sticky logistics issues. But I also know engineers who write on an 8th grade level. And I know Poli-sci majors who can't even get the copier to work properly. Those two last examples are those that will make up the bulk of the unemployment figures. They are the ones that had a narrow education and never learned how to "learn on their own."

Now throw in politicians of any political tilt when it comes to making decisions on funding education or athletics and they are bound to screw it up. The true long term benefits of education and athletic participation never have been about money. As long as people continue to place the financial aspects above all others, it will remain screwed up. Maybe an outdated view, but I'll keep it thanks.

Add to that people who are unwilling to relocate for a job. Otherwise, spot on!

[CID1990]

Sadly I was being serious.

You know about as much about The Citadel as the 99.999% of people who have no clue that SFA is even a college.

BTW if you would read carefully there Mr. Sensitive you'd see that I wasn't even disagreeing or poking fun at your original post.

[CID1990]

Don't bring up math when discussing politically sensitive issues, their heads will explode.

As for bringing back the peasant class, don't worry it's coming as the expense of the death of the middle class.

Just because you can't see us middle classers from your trailer park doesn't mean we don't exist.

[chattownmocs]

I love college football more than I hate public education so I hope it doesn't go away. But what a sham that government is even in the college education business. There is so many thing like this that could be done better (AND CHEAPER!!!) if it was 100% privatized.

[TheRevSFA]

You know about as much about The Citadel as the 99.999% of people who have no clue that SFA is even a college.

BTW if you would read carefully there Mr. Sensitive you'd see that I wasn't even disagreeing or poking fun at your original post.

..and I wasn't really being serious.

The fallouts of text as opposed to voice. I think we should make this a voice driven forum in order for my sarcasm to be effective. Ursus, make it happen. Get Cit on it.

[TheRevSFA]

Just because you can't see us middle classers from your trailer park doesn't mean we don't exist.

So if I am "upper middle class" will I just fall to "middle class?"

[Saint3333]

Just because you can't see us middle classers from your trailer park doesn't mean we don't exist.

You do realize I'm on your side in this debate... wow.

[grayghost06]

I got a news flash for you people who think you have handle on the correlation between someone's major in college and the unemployment rate. Many people may be unemployed because they feel they need to be employed in a field that corresponds to their major. Or they are too stupid to get a job in another field. But here is a key piece of philosophy that will change your life, if you did not already know it. Nobody should go to school (any level) to just learn one topic, or field of study. Oh, everyone will pick up some facts and figures, and concepts in the field they are studying. But I went to school to learn "how to learn." Mainly because I knew my professors were not going to be by my side the rest of my life. Besides I did not want to be reliant on anyone or on any institution when it came to being able to learn new things. Yes, there is a place for formal education and I have had a large amount myself. However, I have also taught myself how to do a huge number of tasks/jobs because I was able to experience and acquire great "learning lessons" in college that I have continued to use my whole life. As an undergrad that got a "liberal arts" education (History) but ended up in a technical field, I have always found that formal undergrad education is, in many cases, nothing more than a box to be checked. Yup, it is anecdotal to be sure. But I am not the exception. For those of you who have been around for a while in a career, you know what I am talking about. I know many engineers who make great managers and can even write fairly well. And I know lots of English majors who can solve sticky logistics issues. But I also know engineers who write on an 8th grade level. And I know Poli-sci majors who can't even get the copier to work properly. Those two last examples are those that will make up the bulk of the unemployment figures. They are the ones that had a narrow education and never learned how to "learn on their own."

Now throw in politicians of any political tilt when it comes to making decisions on funding education or athletics and they are bound to screw it up. The true long term benefits of education and athletic participation never have been about money. As long as people continue to place the financial aspects above all others, it will remain screwed up. Maybe an outdated view, but I'll keep it thanks.

It's the difference between being educated and trained. College is very Vo-Tech oriented these days. I've got friends that use every MBA buzzword going, but couldn't put two grammatically correct sentences together. It makes it tough to create a positive first impression.

A good example is the Demi Moore character in "Disclosure", where she starts spouting off all the modern business school catch phrases and the CEO stops her by asking, " I thought we were buying this company because they could build things...do you understand what the heck she's talking about?".

[CID1990]

You do realize I'm on your side in this debate... wow.

Yes, I just wanted to put you in a trailer park.

[fc97]

Don't bring up math when discussing politically sensitive issues, their heads will explode.

As for bringing back the peasant class, don't worry it's coming as the expense of the death of the middle class.

yes but what can you do

the money resides in the hands of the few, raising taxes runs those types off (it happened in NY, happening in California, happened in England). There will always be states or other countries that these people can flock to as havens. And then, when things change there, they can move to another place. Due to stupidity in government (allowing corporations to own property and retain rights as individuals) has caused the same few with all the money to create a situation where we depend on them for jobs. Once a situation arises where they can make more, they will take it (it was Argentina and Chile, then eastern Europe and now India).

There's nothing any of us can do about it because everyone running the shows are in that "no us" category. They can talk a big game, but they are part of the elite class themselves.

[ASUMountaineer]

Besides the comments from Barry Alvarez, what give anybody the impression that the NCAA is killing FCS?

What part of the word "if" is confusing you?

[ASUMountaineer]

I love college football more than I hate public education so I hope it doesn't go away. But what a sham that government is even in the college education business. There is so many thing like this that could be done better (AND CHEAPER!!!) if it was 100% privatized.

Go Vols!

[NoDak 4 Ever]

What part of the word "if" is confusing you?

Candy and nuts, my friend.

[ASUMountaineer]

Candy and nuts, my friend.

Nice. I essentially agreed with you and you still keep arguing. xsmhx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I agree. The FCS will not die because App State and GSU leave. If the FCS dies, it will be because the NCAA killed it. To me, the NCAA may be the biggest threat to the FCS.

The other part of that is that is the people using it as a reason that they need to jump. If a school wants to jump and it's driven by the fans then so be it. That school probably has plenty of reason that it will work out and so forth without making the idiotic statements as reasons for needing to do it now.

Through the years there has been so much dumb reasoning that were faulty arguments when all anyone that wants to move needs is to use facts instead of spreading around a bunch of garbage like they are some partisan news organization.

I'm sure you remember the "Bowl Money" arguments and even the "TV Money" areguments as if a Sun Belt team has either of those two things in a quantity that supports the move.

The money is gonna come from students, fans, and donors either corporate or individual for the most part and acting like that isn't the case was pretty weak and the bowl money thing has been very scarce for the last couple of years once people actually looked at what was actually being accrued from that shallow well.

The "FCS is dying" seems to have taken it's place. If the NCAA does anything it's gonna be a move to get costs in line for the FBS teams that are not in the BCS league and will probably be to combine some of the top FCS conferences with the lower FBS conferences and that's probably a ways off but in the end the BCS are the cut above and the lower FBS conferences are much more similar to the Top FCS conferences than any move uppers want to admit but it's gonna work out like that.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Nice. I essentially agreed with you and you still keep arguing. xsmhx

Hey I'm on a roll trolling Chattown so I gotta do something in the meantime.

[ASUMountaineer]

The other part of that is that is the people using it as a reason that they need to jump. If a school wants to jump and it's driven by the fans then so be it. That school probably has plenty of reason that it will work out and so forth without making the idiotic statements as reasons for needing to do it now.

Through the years there has been so much dumb reasoning that were faulty arguments when all anyone that wants to move needs is to use facts instead of spreading around a bunch of garbage like they are some partisan news organization.

I'm sure you remember the "Bowl Money" arguments and even the "TV Money" areguments as if a Sun Belt team has either of those two things in a quantity that supports the move.

The money is gonna come from students, fans, and donors either corporate or individual for the most part and acting like that isn't the case was pretty weak and the bowl money thing has been very scarce for the last couple of years once people actually looked at what was actually being accrued from that shallow well.

The "FCS is dying" seems to have taken it's place. If the NCAA does anything it's gonna be a move to get costs in line for the FBS teams that are not in the BCS league and will probably be to combine some of the top FCS conferences with the lower FBS conferences and that's probably a ways off but in the end the BCS are the cut above and the lower FBS conferences are much more similar to the Top FCS conferences than any move uppers want to admit but it's gonna work out like that.

Absolutely, and that's why schools' administrations don't use that reasoning. I agree that if fans used the facts it would make much more sense. My reasoning for why App State has decided that it needs to move to FBS is because the administration and the BOT have analyzed the options and determined it is in the best interest of Appalachian State. I don't need to argue past that.

I don't know that the NCAA will do anything, good or bad, to the FCS. But, if the FCS were to die it would be at the hands of the NCAA--not, Appalachian State and Georgia Southern. xthumbsupx

[ASUMountaineer]

Hey I'm on a roll trolling Chattown so I gotta do something in the meantime.

For this entertainment, we're all appreciative. xlolx

[Apphole]

Hey I'm on a roll trolling Chattown so I gotta do something in the meantime.

ASUMike is giving it to him like a prison rape. He just keeps coming back for more. A rhetorical masochist.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Absolutely, and that's why schools' administrations don't use that reasoning. I agree that if fans used the facts it would make much more sense. My reasoning for why App State has decided that it needs to move to FBS is because the administration and the BOT have analyzed the options and determined it is in the best interest of Appalachian State. I don't need to argue past that.

I don't know that the NCAA will do anything, good or bad, to the FCS. But, if the FCS were to die it would be at the hands of the NCAA--not, Appalachian State and Georgia Southern. xthumbsupx

Exactly, it's the reason you and I don't go back and forth on the matter.

[PaladinFan]

I've determined that this discussion about the FCS dying is about as useless as the polling data I saw the other day relating to Hillary Clinton already leading Marco Rubio for the 2016 election. Interesting stuff in theory, I suppose, notwithstanding that all of it is purely conjecture at this point.

At this stage, no part of this entire discussion has breached the point of being anything other than pure theory. Even the thing that most people seem to be most sure of as a fact - that App State and GSU are leaving the FCS - is still just a hypothetical. House built on sand and whatnot.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I've determined that this discussion about the FCS dying is about as useless as the polling data I saw the other day relating to Hillary Clinton already leading Marco Rubio for the 2016 election. Interesting stuff in theory, I suppose, notwithstanding that all of it is purely conjecture at this point.

At this stage, no part of this entire discussion has breached the point of being anything other than pure theory. Even the thing that most people seem to be most sure of as a fact - that App State and GSU are leaving the FCS - is still just a hypothetical. House built on sand and whatnot.

Agreed.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

Bull. I know exactly how much they are missed. I watched way more of those games in person than you could ever attest to. Your Johnny come lately doesn't apply to the guy that made the statement (me) and on a personal level I'd like to still see em' on the schedule but it doesn't change the fact that them leaving didn't put FCS back and you leaving, GSU leaving etc. also won't be part of the FCS is dying claim which is what my comment addressed in the first place.

Those teams moving on gave teams like App and Montana a better chance at getting a seat at the table and those two teams as well as others filled in just fine in their absense. Same will occur again.

How can I be sure on that? Simple, those same dip**** claims were made by Nevada, Boise, Idaho, and Marshall fans which I talked to pretty frequently in person. Marshall fans in 95 & 96 didn't have a lot of respect for playing teams like App just so you know and showed the same sort of disrespect that some of y'all now exercise. I imagine that is part of the reason that former SoCon mates could give a crap if they fell off the face of the earth.

First off let me apologize for the "Johnny Come Lately" part. I thought the "missed" comment came from a N Dakota State fan and that prompted it. Considering I'm an App State guy who rarely misses a game - home or away - I doubt you've "watched way more of those games - particularly Marshall - in person than you (I) could ever attest to". Obviously teams moving on opens up opportunities for others, but you can not argue their moving weakened the division. Marshall fans didn't like App and we didn't like them, but I completely disagree with you on the lack of respect notion. In the past I was closely connected to the SoCon Commissioner's office and I KNOW there was a ton of respect for each other's program. I also don't get where you think App fans are showing disrespect to the rest of FCS. We simply think our school has gotten to the point where, for the good of our fan base, we need to move on. The vitriol ASU fans have endured from some of our FCS brethren since our school began exploring this option - way back in 1995 - has been astounding. FCS will miss ASU & GSU just like it did when Troy, Marshall, Boise, Nevada and others left.

[Southern Bison]

there's another thing i want to point out. all of this mentality is exactly whats wrong with the government and people today. people expect government to spend money to provide schools the give education ad minimal costs and expect the government to provide all avenues to give the education they want. they also expect to pay virtually nothing in taxes to do so (always tax someone else, always someone richer than you). then when someone goes to try to suggest cuts that may make sense at the time, the arguments come out on why those shouldn't be cut. there always should be something else that should be cut. which means that overall, nothing should happen because someone is always going to be upset about a cut or a tax.

so, what do you do. to spend money wisely, tough decisions have to be made. sorry but people are going to have to make a sacrifice one way or another. its either in higher taxes to pay for everything or cuts that people dont want to cut.

its simple math and economic principals.

This post right here explains why the nation is over $16 Trillion in debt. It's too many people in this country claiming "I need my free gov't stuff (welfare, unemployment for 99 weeks, food stamps, cell phones) and those people are not contributing to the prosperity of the nation. A small minority might be going to school to learn a new trade but most are just raking it in and they'll be damned if they step away from suckling the gov't tit. LBJ's War on Poverty hasn't improved the situation in the past 45 years...FDR's New Deal actually kept the country in the Great Depression longer than it should have been, and Obama's racking up of $6T of debt and the Democratic-controlled Senate's failure to pass a budget since May 2009. The "takers" have become the majority in this country and the "makers" the minority. Looking back through history shows that as the tipping point towards the end of this country as we know it.

We still have the opportunity and many governors are taking the steps to ensure that their states are financially stable should the collapse happen. What McCrory is doing here in NC is trying to move the state back towards a manufacturing base rather than a service-industry base. I applaud his efforts to reform the higher education system here in NC and I know that we will see stronger graduates come from those schools to tackle the jobs of the next 30 years.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

First off let me apologize for the "Johnny Come Lately" part. I thought the "missed" comment came from a N Dakota State fan and that prompted it. Considering I'm an App State guy who rarely misses a game - home or away - I doubt you've "watched way more of those games - particularly Marshall - in person than you (I) could ever attest to". Obviously teams moving on opens up opportunities for others, but you can not argue their moving weakened the division. Marshall fans didn't like App and we didn't like them, but I completely disagree with you on the lack of respect notion. In the past I was closely connected to the SoCon Commissioner's office and I KNOW there was a ton of respect for each other's program. I also don't get where you think App fans are showing disrespect to the rest of FCS. We simply think our school has gotten to the point where, for the good of our fan base, we need to move on. The vitriol ASU fans have endured from some of our FCS brethren since our school began exploring this option - way back in 1995 - has been astounding. FCS will miss ASU & GSU just like it did when Troy, Marshall, Boise, Nevada and others left.

You saw Marshall home and away. I saw Boise, Nevada, & Idaho home and away on most occasions. I saw more of those games because we had 3 to 1 on that count.

Nobody is arguing that the teams aren't missed. Those teams being gone has done nothing to depleat the vibrancy of the division is the point.

[Herder]

Wow, you're really bent out of shape over someone being worried about the FCS reducing scholarships. Note that he said, "if" they reduce scholarships that it would be bad for the FCS. So, your beef is only with one guy's (OP) opinion? Really? Seems you have a bigger beef than that.

Just remember, App State and GSU are only looking to do the same thing that NDSU did. xthumbsupx

What's that, play in a meaningful game in January?

[Herder]

IMO, the FBS playoffs should be setup as follows, and when it does, NDSU should move up.

12 Team playoff = 8 Conf Champs + 4 At Large Berths (Use BCS Ranking system for Selection and Seeding)
Of the 10 FBS Conf Champions (SEC, B1G, Pac12, Big12, BE, ACC, MWC, MAC, SB, CUSA), Top 6 Conf champions IN, Bottom 4 Conf Champs play-In for 2 playoff Spots. Could be differenct bottom 4 each year.
Any team not making the field of 12 is eligible for meaningless Bowl game, including losers of Play-In games.
Top 4 Seeds (Conf Champs or At-Large teams) with 1st round Bye
Revenue shared by Leagues with teams in the 12 team field, with payout for W's; Would benefit conferences with the most teams . . . SEC in 2012.

Playoffs: (12 Teams)
Round 1: 12 vs 5, 11 vs 6, 10 vs 7, 9 vs 8 (On -Campus at site of higher sees)
Round 2: 1 vs 8/9 Winner, 2 vs 7/10 winner, 3 vs 6/11 winner, 4 vs 5/12 winner (On -Campus at site of Top 4 seeds)
Round 3: Final 4 Site $$$
Round 4: Championship Site $$$$

If Champion comes from Top 4 seeds, they only play 3 games. There is zero argument that anyone missing this field of 12 would be getting screwed.
Every team in FBS would have an avenue to the Championship. Would help the blanace of power in the FBS.
Conference Championship games would have similar feel to NCAA berths in smaller leagues.
This would generate excitement ala March Madness, with upsets, david vs goliath, big dollars, etc, etc
Crazy thought, just have the NCAA administer the championship

[CID1990]

Nobody is arguing that the teams aren't missed.

I am!

Marshall and their entire bush league program is not missed. May they ever wallow in FBS mediocrity.



Sent from the center of the universe.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I am!

Marshall and their entire bush league program is not missed. May they ever wallow in FBS mediocrity.



Sent from the center of the universe.

Ok, when I said nobody I was referring to me in the sense that I was not advocating that.

[SpiritCymbal]

Nobody cares if GSU and App leaves, just leave the rest of us alone while you do it.

Then why are you spending the time to post on a thread about it?

[fc97]

The vitriol ASU fans have endured from some of our FCS brethren since our school began exploring this option - way back in 1995 - has been astounding. FCS will miss ASU & GSU just like it did when Troy, Marshall, Boise, Nevada and others left.

lmao

it only took this many pages to get an app fans try to whip out the real victim and sympathy card.

first thing, marshall was missed at first. one year in, no one really even mentioned them. app and furman had stepped in well and wofford was in and playing well. this type of "we'll be missed" attitude sounds just like high school seniors who WANT to be missed to justify themselves. they think the world ends because they've moved on, but in the end, life goes on and they are nearly forgotten.

i wish you guys well on your move, truly.

but, the same will be with app and gsu. a few fans from a few schools (mainly socon schools) will miss you at first, the rest of fcs won't bat an eye. who talked about wku and troy after they left? the answer is no one outside a few mvfc and southland fans.

but back to your "we're victims" and your vitriol comment. please. app fans have been dishing out anti-socon, anti-private school and anti-fcs stuff in huge numbers since 1996 when some of these message boards started popping up on espn and scribe. this and your fans made your own bed and taught people like apphole and glassonion how to ruin any topic by turning it into a hate app session.

[Saint3333]

App is certainly not a victim, if do get the opportunity to move up I wish the SoCon and FCS well. However I do believe the division is on a down slope with or without App and GSU.

There are differences between when Marshall left and if App and GSU leave. The first is arguably the two best football schools in the conference will be gone vs. one school. The second is GSU came in a few years before Marshall left which helped greatly maintain the SoCon's overall level of play on the field. The SoCon was weaker without Marshall. In the modern era it has never been stronger than when it had Marshall, GSU, App, and Furman.

IF both leave the key will be for the SoCon to find schools that can get up to speed quickly (3 years or so), Wofford is an excellent example. I'm not sure there is a Wofford type program out there. ETSU and KSU will take much longer than 3 years. CCU is best option as they have potential to get much better faster.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IMO, the FBS playoffs should be setup as follows, and when it does, NDSU should move up.

12 Team playoff = 8 Conf Champs + 4 At Large Berths (Use BCS Ranking system for Selection and Seeding)
Of the 10 FBS Conf Champions (SEC, B1G, Pac12, Big12, BE, ACC, MWC, MAC, SB, CUSA), Top 6 Conf champions IN, Bottom 4 Conf Champs play-In for 2 playoff Spots. Could be differenct bottom 4 each year.
Any team not making the field of 12 is eligible for meaningless Bowl game, including losers of Play-In games.
Top 4 Seeds (Conf Champs or At-Large teams) with 1st round Bye
Revenue shared by Leagues with teams in the 12 team field, with payout for W's; Would benefit conferences with the most teams . . . SEC in 2012.

Playoffs: (12 Teams)
Round 1: 12 vs 5, 11 vs 6, 10 vs 7, 9 vs 8 (On -Campus at site of higher sees)
Round 2: 1 vs 8/9 Winner, 2 vs 7/10 winner, 3 vs 6/11 winner, 4 vs 5/12 winner (On -Campus at site of Top 4 seeds)
Round 3: Final 4 Site $$$
Round 4: Championship Site $$$$

If Champion comes from Top 4 seeds, they only play 3 games. There is zero argument that anyone missing this field of 12 would be getting screwed.
Every team in FBS would have an avenue to the Championship. Would help the blanace of power in the FBS.
Conference Championship games would have similar feel to NCAA berths in smaller leagues.
This would generate excitement ala March Madness, with upsets, david vs goliath, big dollars, etc, etc
Crazy thought, just have the NCAA administer the championship

I'd also like a puppy that shoots lasers out of its eyes and can deliver me a six-pack of Harpoon when I'm watching the big game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

App is certainly not a victim, if do get the opportunity to move up I wish the SoCon and FCS well. However I do believe the division is on a down slope with or without App and GSU.

There are differences between when Marshall left and if App and GSU leave. The first is arguably the two best football schools in the conference will be gone vs. one school. The second is GSU came in a few years before Marshall left which helped greatly maintain the SoCon's overall level of play on the field. The SoCon was weaker without Marshall. In the modern era it has never been stronger than when it had Marshall, GSU, App, and Furman.

IF both leave the key will be for the SoCon to find schools that can get up to speed quickly (3 years or so), Wofford is an excellent example. I'm not sure there is a Wofford type program out there. ETSU and KSU will take much longer than 3 years. CCU is best option as they have potential to get much better faster.

For every Marshall that leaves, there's a North Dakota State that rises up to take their place. It's a Law of the Universe.

[Saint3333]

Marsall left in 1996, NDSU came in 2008, excellent point. So if App and GSU leave in 2014 by 2026 the FCS should be able to find TWO replacements by then, got it.

No doubt someone will win the national title no matter if all the top 10 programs left, that is a rule. However, the overall strength of the subdivision will, by definition, be weaker if it loses any one or two of its top ten programs.

[fc97]

App is certainly not a victim, if do get the opportunity to move up I wish the SoCon and FCS well. However I do believe the division is on a down slope with or without App and GSU.

There are differences between when Marshall left and if App and GSU leave. The first is arguably the two best football schools in the conference will be gone vs. one school. The second is GSU came in a few years before Marshall left which helped greatly maintain the SoCon's overall level of play on the field. The SoCon was weaker without Marshall. In the modern era it has never been stronger than when it had Marshall, GSU, App, and Furman.

IF both leave the key will be for the SoCon to find schools that can get up to speed quickly (3 years or so), Wofford is an excellent example. I'm not sure there is a Wofford type program out there. ETSU and KSU will take much longer than 3 years. CCU is best option as they have potential to get much better faster.

this to me is arguably untrue. app arguably would never have been in the position they were in if marshall had stayed. and the socon would arguably. the argument now is, the southeast is virtually tapped for football schools now. the landscape changes some if app and gsu leave. but, things could be better or worse. if richmond steps in for football only, that could really bolster things much more than ccu. and kennesaw has much better potential than ccu.

[SpeedkingATL]

IMO, the FBS playoffs should be setup as follows, and when it does, NDSU should move up.

12 Team playoff = 8 Conf Champs + 4 At Large Berths (Use BCS Ranking system for Selection and Seeding)
Of the 10 FBS Conf Champions (SEC, B1G, Pac12, Big12, BE, ACC, MWC, MAC, SB, CUSA), Top 6 Conf champions IN, Bottom 4 Conf Champs play-In for 2 playoff Spots. Could be differenct bottom 4 each year.
Any team not making the field of 12 is eligible for meaningless Bowl game, including losers of Play-In games.
Top 4 Seeds (Conf Champs or At-Large teams) with 1st round Bye
Revenue shared by Leagues with teams in the 12 team field, with payout for W's; Would benefit conferences with the most teams . . . SEC in 2012.

Playoffs: (12 Teams)
Round 1: 12 vs 5, 11 vs 6, 10 vs 7, 9 vs 8 (On -Campus at site of higher sees)
Round 2: 1 vs 8/9 Winner, 2 vs 7/10 winner, 3 vs 6/11 winner, 4 vs 5/12 winner (On -Campus at site of Top 4 seeds)
Round 3: Final 4 Site $$$
Round 4: Championship Site $$$$

If Champion comes from Top 4 seeds, they only play 3 games. There is zero argument that anyone missing this field of 12 would be getting screwed.
Every team in FBS would have an avenue to the Championship. Would help the blanace of power in the FBS.
Conference Championship games would have similar feel to NCAA berths in smaller leagues.
This would generate excitement ala March Madness, with upsets, david vs goliath, big dollars, etc, etc
Crazy thought, just have the NCAA administer the championship

Just remember the BCS is the tail wagging the dog (NCAA). No advantage to them for more FBS conferences or schools to have open access to the National Championship Playoff. It's money out of the BCS's pocket everytime a non-BCSer manages to crash the party (or gets a prime time TV game for that matter).

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Just remember the BCS is the tail wagging the dog (NCAA). No advantage to them for more FBS conferences or schools to have open access to the National Championship Playoff. It's money out of the BCS's pocket everytime a non-BCSer manages to crash the party (or gets a prime time TV game for that matter).

Which is why there will always be a artificial ceiling in FBS. No thank you.

[Saint3333]

this to me is arguably untrue. app arguably would never have been in the position they were in if marshall had stayed. and the socon would arguably. the argument now is, the southeast is virtually tapped for football schools now. the landscape changes some if app and gsu leave. but, things could be better or worse. if richmond steps in for football only, that could really bolster things much more than ccu. and kennesaw has much better potential than ccu.

So App, a program with a winning record vs. Marshall, would not be in the position they are in now? I am going to assume you didn't know App had a winning record vs. Marshall (14-9) or you wouldn't have made that comment. The catalyst to the improved playoff success in App's run in the 2000's was not a lack of Marshall in the conference but a change in Chancellor and AD at App.

[PaladinFan]

For every Marshall that leaves, there's a North Dakota State that rises up to take their place. It's a Law of the Universe.

Even narrower than that. Looks at Wofford. Look at Elon. Elon was awful when they joined the SoCon. They've slid back recently, but they were a legitimate playoff team not that long into their FCS tenure. Georgia Southern was nothing and then a national power in an extremely short period of time.

To argue that teams don't rise to the occasion ignores reality. They do it every single season. Sure, maybe the division suffers for a year or two, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that the overall level of play has dropped.

[fc97]

So App, a program with a winning record vs. Marshall, would not be in the position they are in now? I am going to assume you didn't know App had a winning record vs. Marshall (14-9) or you wouldn't have made that comment. The catalyst to the improved playoff success in App's run in the 2000's was not a lack of Marshall in the conference but a change in Chancellor and AD at App.

the success can be debated. i am aware of the app record vs marshall. i am also aware that before marshall, app was a good second or third place program. you realize that what you are debating here is the exact thing you are debating at others against. you were 9-2 with marshall in their bad years. and it took marshall much longer to stabilize in the conference than it did elon, wofford or samford. you were also 5-5 against them in the ten years before they left. hardly dominant.

[CID1990]

Seems to me that for the last two years, even if ASU and GSU weren't in FCS, the top two teams would still have been NDSU and SHSU.

Also all the talk of who might replace whom is ridiculous. Nobody needs replacing. Nobody has "replaced" any of the last 4-5 teams to move up.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[asumike83]

I'll be happy when all of this is over. If both GSU and JMU are on board, I'd be thrilled. Two excellent regional rivals would help ease the growing pains.

[ASUMountaineer]

Exactly, it's the reason you and I don't go back and forth on the matter.

That, and because we're BAMF's. xlolx

[ASUMountaineer]

What's that, play in a meaningful game in January?

xthumbsupx You're much better than No Dak at smack. xlolx

[ASUMountaineer]

Which is why there will always be a artificial ceiling in FBS. No thank you.

That may be the best course of action for NDSU, but our admin and BOT find the FBS to be a better fit for ASU. Time to find something else for fighting the good fight...

[NoDak 4 Ever]

That may be the best course of action for NDSU, but our admin and BOT find the FBS to be a better fit for ASU. Time to find something else for fighting the good fight...

Like I said, say hi to Western Kentucky.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

That, and because we're BAMF's. xlolx

True. It was odd when we confused our wallets at that one place.

NSFW people if you don't already know what coming here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_tbKQ0wS34

[Saint3333]

the success can be debated. i am aware of the app record vs marshall. i am also aware that before marshall, app was a good second or third place program. you realize that what you are debating here is the exact thing you are debating at others against. you were 9-2 with marshall in their bad years. and it took marshall much longer to stabilize in the conference than it did elon, wofford or samford. you were also 5-5 against them in the ten years before they left. hardly dominant.

History lesson time.

Dominant is your word not mine.

App won four SoCon titles the ten years before Marshall left. Going 5-5 vs. an opponent that finished in the top 10 eight times over 10 years would be defined as successful by most people's standards. When top ten programs play each other one typically doesn't win 80% of the time. Take App and GSU for example, App has a two game lead all-time vs. GSU, but neither program has been dominant even during the great runs of both the other has won (1999 and 2007 are good examples).

It took Marshall longer to stabilize than it did Elon or Samford? What are you talking about, Marshall won the conference in year 6. This is year 10 for Elon and they have never won the conference and are on a downward slide since 2009.

[fc97]

History lesson time.

Dominant is your word not mine.

App won four SoCon titles the ten years before Marshall left. Going 5-5 vs. an opponent that finished in the top 10 eight times over 10 years would be defined as successful by most people's standards. When top ten programs play each other one typically doesn't win 80% of the time. Take App and GSU for example, App has a two game lead all-time vs. GSU, but neither program has been dominant even during the great runs of both the other has won (1999 and 2007 are good examples).

It took Marshall longer to stabilize than it did Elon or Samford? What are you talking about, Marshall won the conference in year 6. This is year 10 for Elon and they have never won the conference and are on a downward slide since 2009.

oh, saint saint saint. let me run through history for you.

77-79 - marshall won 0 socon games
by 1981, the only socon win was against app
by 1982, the won their second socon game
1983, they stepped it up and won 3 socon games
1984, first winning record in socon action, beating 2 socon teams (one being app again)

summary: 8 seasons, 7 socon wins

85-86, they won 7 more socon games

10 seasons, 15 socon teams beaten.

and they won their first socon championship in 1988, 11 years after joining

so, yes, by those general stats, samford and elon have both integrated in much better.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'm not trying to smack here at all but tell me honestly, HONESTLY how those attendance numbers are going to be achieved when games are in the middle of the week. I'm really asking here.

http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2013/03/18-mid-american-sun-belt-conference-midweek-telecasts-for-2013/

[AppMan]

History lesson time.

Dominant is your word not mine.

App won four SoCon titles the ten years before Marshall left. Going 5-5 vs. an opponent that finished in the top 10 eight times over 10 years would be defined as successful by most people's standards. When top ten programs play each other one typically doesn't win 80% of the time. Take App and GSU for example, App has a two game lead all-time vs. GSU, but neither program has been dominant even during the great runs of both the other has won (1999 and 2007 are good examples).

It took Marshall longer to stabilize than it did Elon or Samford? What are you talking about, Marshall won the conference in year 6. This is year 10 for Elon and they have never won the conference and are on a downward slide since 2009.

Now you've done it. Bringing facts into an argument started on half truths and myths.

[Saint3333]

Ok not sure why I thought they joined 1982 great point. But guess what, Elon sucked just as bad the first five years in the SoCon, and it will take longer than 11 years to win the SoCon if it ever happens. So is your point that Elon stabilized as mediocre faster than Marshall or didn't suck as bad for as long? Either way congrats. Marshall grew into an FCS powerhouse from nothing, that isn't debatable. The only program out there with that kind of potential is KSU. But this is a much different era than the late 70's.

You have strayed from my original point that App's success did not happen due to Marshall leaving, hopefully we can agree on that.

[fc97]

But guess what, Elon sucked just as bad the first five years in the SoCon, and it will take longer than 11 years to win the SoCon if it ever happens. So is your point that Elon stabilized as mediocre faster than Marshall or didn't suck as bad for as long? Either way congrats.

first you said history lesson time, kind of condescending considering you had your facts wrong, and you had a cheerleader come in to back you up also knowing nothing.

second, yes, every other school brought into the conference has fit in much better than marshall did. that's the point. and app didnt have any of the success today when marshall wasnt here. both are points. you cant say you wouldve had the success if marshall was here anymore than i can say you wouldnt. the point is, you didnt have the success until marshall left.

[Apphole]

you didnt have the success until marshall left.

We had multiple seasons of success, including an undefeated season, in the 80's and 90's when the Thundering Turds were members of the Southern Conference. Don't get ahead of Yosef.

[PaladinFan]

Ok not sure why I thought they joined 1982 great point. But guess what, Elon sucked just as bad the first five years in the SoCon, and it will take longer than 11 years to win the SoCon if it ever happens. So is your point that Elon stabilized as mediocre faster than Marshall or didn't suck as bad for as long? Either way congrats. Marshall grew into an FCS powerhouse from nothing, that isn't debatable. The only program out there with that kind of potential is KSU. But this is a much different era than the late 70's.

You have strayed from my original point that App's success did not happen due to Marshall leaving, hopefully we can agree on that.

Painting with that broad a brush is difficult. Sure, this is a different era than the 70s. Still, we routinely see teams move to the FCS that develop their programs into national powers. It has happened over and over again.

App State had some successful teams in spite of Marshall. Furman was the class of the SoCon throughout most of the 1980s. Marshall took the reigns in the early 90s, then GSU in the late 90s. App, Furman and GSU were all incredibly powerful teams in the early 2000s, and App managed to catch the wave in the mid 2000s while GSU and Furman started a period of rebuilding (which lasted a shorter period for the Eagles).

Would App have been as successful with Marshall still in the conference? Maybe. We'll never know. They were plenty good enough in the mid-2000s to beat their competition and, in reality, that's all that matters.

[AppMan]

oh, saint saint saint. let me run through history for you.

77-79 - marshall won 0 socon games
by 1981, the only socon win was against app
by 1982, the won their second socon game
1983, they stepped it up and won 3 socon games
1984, first winning record in socon action, beating 2 socon teams (one being app again)

summary: 8 seasons, 7 socon wins

85-86, they won 7 more socon games

10 seasons, 15 socon teams beaten.

and they won their first socon championship in 1988, 11 years after joining

so, yes, by those general stats, samford and elon have both integrated in much better.

It isn't a legit comparison. Wofford and Elon enjoyed considerable success in D-II prior to making the move to 1-aa and Samford had been a relatively successful 1-aa program in the OVC. Thanks to a crooked coach (Perry Moss) leading to NCAA sanctions, being kicked out of the MAC and ramifications from the crash, Marshall was the worst college football program in the country when admitted to the SoCon. To your statement about ASU racking most of its W's during Marshall's down years the facts say just the opposite. During the 10 years from 1986 through 1996 - a mildly successful record of 112-37 - ASU won 8 and lost 4, or 21% of their total loses.

[CID1990]

Way too much discussion about that sorry excuse for a school in this thread, IMO.

They are not missed.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

Your original point is false. The two aren't linked. "App was more successful now because Marshall left" (your original point you are now trying to rephase).

For your second point you are trying to compare Marshall from the 1970's to Elon of the 2000's, there are way too many variables. What we know is both were 1 and 1A for the worst first 5 years of any SoCon program in the history of the conference when they joined, then one became an FCS power, the other was mediocre for two years and now is getting worse. Do you think Elon will improve the level of play of the field the way Marshall did during their years in the SoCon? No they won't, it is a different era.

This is not 1977, things are different. It is highly unlikely the SoCon is going to pick up the next "Marshall" type program in this next round of expansion.

[Saint3333]

Painting with that broad a brush is difficult. Sure, this is a different era than the 70s. Still, we routinely see teams move to the FCS that develop their programs into national powers. It has happened over and over again.

App State had some successful teams in spite of Marshall. Furman was the class of the SoCon throughout most of the 1980s. Marshall took the reigns in the early 90s, then GSU in the late 90s. App, Furman and GSU were all incredibly powerful teams in the early 2000s, and App managed to catch the wave in the mid 2000s while GSU and Furman started a period of rebuilding (which lasted a shorter period for the Eagles).

Would App have been as successful with Marshall still in the conference? Maybe. We'll never know. They were plenty good enough in the mid-2000s to beat their competition and, in reality, that's all that matters.

Good post. My point is Marshall leaving wasn't the cause of App's success.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is not 1977, things are different. It is highly unlikely the SoCon is going to pick up the next "Marshall" type program in this next round of expansion.

I think the jokes here write themselves...

[fc97]

Your original point is false. The two aren't linked. "App was more successful now because Marshall left" (your original point you are now trying to rephase).

For your second point you are trying to compare Marshall from the 1970's to Elon of the 2000's, there are way too many variables. What we know is both were 1 and 1A for the worst first 5 years of any SoCon program in the history of the conference when they joined, then one became an FCS power, the other was mediocre for two years and now is getting worse. Do you think Elon will improve the level of play of the field the way Marshall did during their years in the SoCon? No they won't, it is a different era.

This is not 1977, things are different. It is highly unlikely the SoCon is going to pick up the next "Marshall" type program in this next round of expansion.

things are different year to year. by that same thought a western kentucky, boise, troy, buffalo, marshall, any of the comparisons are stupid.

point 2 - why might the socon not pick the next marshall type of program? one that sucks for 10 years and then is the pick of the litter in fcs. it could happen, it could be elon or samford yet. it could be kennesaw, you just dont know.

[PaladinFan]

Good post. My point is Marshall leaving wasn't the cause of App's success.

I agree with that. I was actually surprised that, looking back, Marshall was only a heavy hitter for a short period of time. Marshall joined the SoCon in 1976 and had only three SoCon titles to their name when they left, only two outright that turned into national titles. Marshall was really good only briefly.

Just as a point of comparison, Furman had 9 SoCon titles in the same time frame and a national title.

[Saint3333]

Marshall didn't have as many SoCon titles because App had their number. On paper there is no way we should have beaten Marshall in the early-mid 90's.

[Saint3333]

things are different year to year. by that same thought a western kentucky, boise, troy, buffalo, marshall, any of the comparisons are stupid.

point 2 - why might the socon not pick the next marshall type of program? one that sucks for 10 years and then is the pick of the litter in fcs. it could happen, it could be elon or samford yet. it could be kennesaw, you just dont know.

Year to year vs. 25 years is a LARGE leap.

There will never be another Marshall type program. Those types of programs will not stay in the SoCon for 20 years any longer. If KSU is invited and has success they will be gone after 3 good years. Those types of programs follow the ODU, FIU, etc. model in the current era.

[Eagle22]

All the Marshall jokes aside, they remain one of the few programs that ever brought a significant number of fans to Paulson Stadium.

When Marshall left, Wofford came in and was not competitive. I don't know exactly to what level they were funding scholarships, but it was well known they weren't close to 63 scholarships and there was a lot of scuttlebutt that they tried to foment some movement towards reducing the scholarship levels across the SoCon. This was about the same time the three amigos (White, Sankey & Fullerton) were working within the SoCon, Southland and Big Sky respectively to develop the division.

Wofford encountered stiff resistance from Alfred White and the leadership from GSU, App and Furman who all realized that suppressing scholarship levels would damage I-AA and further the resolve of the "pseudo-1A's" that had just left the division in staking out their claim for superiority. To Wofford's credit, they quickly realized they were fighting a losing battle and instead put their nose to the grindstone and became a contender in the league.

I believe now, based on the similar tone contained in the article that produced this thread ... that history to some extent has repeated itself.

Sure, the SoCon will undergo some type of refreshment when GSU and ASU leave, but I think it is likely that the SoCon will be very hard pressed to find two football programs that have both the same level of interest and quality of play on the field. Perhaps the remaining SoCon teams will not be concerned about the 2-5% annual loss in their respective attendance levels (admittedly a drop in the bucket), but when all revenues are important I think it could become an issue.

For GSU and ASU, I don't believe too many fans are expecting to see attendance improve at every possible SunBelt game, but when GSU plays Troy State ... I guarantee we'll see more Troy folks than we've ever seen out of a traveling contingent from Elon or Samford. These are the incremental opportunities that we want to have, not to mention playing at a different level allows us to schedule other FBS schools down the road at home.

I've followed GSU football for a long time, and was a student for many of the years when we played WKU, EKU, JMU, ULL and others as an independent I-AA team. I don't believe it is a leap of faith or crazy expectation to see a return to some of those days if we join the SunBelt, especially if ASU and possibly JMU are in the move with us.

[CID1990]

Marshall didn't have as many SoCon titles because App had their number. On paper there is no way we should have beaten Marshall in the early-mid 90's.

Marshall was loaded with talent in those years, but they were undisciplined and that made them vulnerable.

They had a tough time in Charleston a couple times. I think it was 1988 that they came into Chucktown ranked #1 in the country and we smacked them 20-3 or some comparable score.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Year to year vs. 25 years is a LARGE leap.

There will never be another Marshall type program. Those types of programs will not stay in the SoCon for 20 years any longer. If KSU is invited and has success they will be gone after 3 good years. Those types of programs follow the ODU, FIU, etc. model in the current era.

ODU and FIU are similar programs in any way? xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[PaladinFan]

All the Marshall jokes aside, they remain one of the few programs that ever brought a significant number of fans to Paulson Stadium.

When Marshall left, Wofford came in and was not competitive. I don't know exactly to what level they were funding scholarships, but it was well known they weren't close to 63 scholarships and there was a lot of scuttlebutt that they tried to foment some movement towards reducing the scholarship levels across the SoCon. This was about the same time the three amigos (White, Sankey & Fullerton) were working within the SoCon, Southland and Big Sky respectively to develop the division.

Wofford encountered stiff resistance from Alfred White and the leadership from GSU, App and Furman who all realized that suppressing scholarship levels would damage I-AA and further the resolve of the "pseudo-1A's" that had just left the division in staking out their claim for superiority. To Wofford's credit, they quickly realized they were fighting a losing battle and instead put their nose to the grindstone and became a contender in the league.

I believe now, based on the similar tone contained in the article that produced this thread ... that history to some extent has repeated itself.

Sure, the SoCon will undergo some type of refreshment when GSU and ASU leave, but I think it is likely that the SoCon will be very hard pressed to find two football programs that have both the same level of interest and quality of play on the field. Perhaps the remaining SoCon teams will not be concerned about the 2-5% annual loss in their respective attendance levels (admittedly a drop in the bucket), but when all revenues are important I think it could become an issue.

For GSU and ASU, I don't believe too many fans are expecting to see attendance improve at every possible SunBelt game, but when GSU plays Troy State ... I guarantee we'll see more Troy folks than we've ever seen out of a traveling contingent from Elon or Samford. These are the incremental opportunities that we want to have, not to mention playing at a different level allows us to schedule other FBS schools down the road at home.

I've followed GSU football for a long time, and was a student for many of the years when we played WKU, EKU, JMU, ULL and others as an independent I-AA team. I don't believe it is a leap of faith or crazy expectation to see a return to some of those days if we join the SunBelt, especially if ASU and possibly JMU are in the move with us.

I agree. For what its worth, GSU's travel contingent is without equal. App State's has improved, but only extremely recently and still no where close to what the Eagles will bring. Either you guys are really loyal to the cause, or have nothing else to do.

[Saint3333]

ODU and FIU are similar programs in any way? xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

As usual nothing to add except smileys.

[walliver]

I agree. For what its worth, GSU's travel contingent is without equal. App State's has improved, but only extremely recently and still no where close to what the Eagles will bring. Either you guys are really loyal to the cause, or have nothing else to do.

Some people will do anything to get out of Statesboro.:)

GSU does travel much better than their hillbilly brethren.

[Saint3333]

I've been to both WC and Furman when App's brought 3k plus, maybe GSU brings more but we travel pretty well.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I agree. For what its worth, GSU's travel contingent is without equal. App State's has improved, but only extremely recently and still no where close to what the Eagles will bring. Either you guys are really loyal to the cause, or have nothing else to do.

Maybe in the SoCon....

[fc97]

Some people will do anything to get out of Statesboro.:)

GSU does travel much better than their hillbilly brethren.

i disagree with this. and i think its much more reliant on geography. i've been to gsu and app games and elon and western and can say that app travels better to both of those and gsu is nowhere even close. most likely it is about proximity.

[fc97]

All the Marshall jokes aside, they remain one of the few programs that ever brought a significant number of fans to Paulson Stadium.

When Marshall left, Wofford came in and was not competitive. I don't know exactly to what level they were funding scholarships, but it was well known they weren't close to 63 scholarships and there was a lot of scuttlebutt that they tried to foment some movement towards reducing the scholarship levels across the SoCon. This was about the same time the three amigos (White, Sankey & Fullerton) were working within the SoCon, Southland and Big Sky respectively to develop the division.

Wofford encountered stiff resistance from Alfred White and the leadership from GSU, App and Furman who all realized that suppressing scholarship levels would damage I-AA and further the resolve of the "pseudo-1A's" that had just left the division in staking out their claim for superiority. To Wofford's credit, they quickly realized they were fighting a losing battle and instead put their nose to the grindstone and became a contender in the league.

I believe now, based on the similar tone contained in the article that produced this thread ... that history to some extent has repeated itself.

Sure, the SoCon will undergo some type of refreshment when GSU and ASU leave, but I think it is likely that the SoCon will be very hard pressed to find two football programs that have both the same level of interest and quality of play on the field. Perhaps the remaining SoCon teams will not be concerned about the 2-5% annual loss in their respective attendance levels (admittedly a drop in the bucket), but when all revenues are important I think it could become an issue.

For GSU and ASU, I don't believe too many fans are expecting to see attendance improve at every possible SunBelt game, but when GSU plays Troy State ... I guarantee we'll see more Troy folks than we've ever seen out of a traveling contingent from Elon or Samford. These are the incremental opportunities that we want to have, not to mention playing at a different level allows us to schedule other FBS schools down the road at home.

I've followed GSU football for a long time, and was a student for many of the years when we played WKU, EKU, JMU, ULL and others as an independent I-AA team. I don't believe it is a leap of faith or crazy expectation to see a return to some of those days if we join the SunBelt, especially if ASU and possibly JMU are in the move with us.

and again, with elon, this is about proximity of the school and alumni. elon has been known to take a fare contingent to app, but to gsu it has sucked. the simplicity of it, there are just few elon alumni south of north carolina to make a trip like that. whereas, if you look at our numbers in towson, jmu, richmond and hofstra type games, you saw us show in in very good numbers.

so to sum it up, elon isn't going to hurt by losing gsu on the schedule. but they will hurt every other year without app on the schedule. i think a lot of this is why elon is one of the teams looking for more northern teams are conference affiliation long term.

[seantaylor]

i disagree with this. and i think its much more reliant on geography. i've been to gsu and app games and elon and western and can say that app travels better to both of those and gsu is nowhere even close. most likely it is about proximity.

GSU is a lot closer to Greenville than Appy? This was a Furman poster that made the comment.

[fc97]

GSU is a lot closer to Greenville than Appy? This was a Furman poster that made the comment.

i was making a statement to show that these "we travel well" items get diluted in the fact that the travel is good to the few close by schools and and about average otherwise.

[ASUMountaineer]

True. It was odd when we confused our wallets at that one place.

NSFW people if you don't already know what coming here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_tbKQ0wS34

xlolx agreed.

[ASUMountaineer]

I think the jokes here write themselves...

When it comes to your posts...agreed. xnodx

[seantaylor]

i was making a statement to show that these "we travel well" items get diluted in the fact that the travel is good to the few close by schools and and about average otherwise.

But, a Furman poster was the one suggesting this. Meaning, that he has seen a lot more GSU fans in his backyard than Appy. So, your distance theory doesn't really hold water.

[fc97]

But, a Furman poster was the one suggesting this. Meaning, that he has seen a lot more GSU fans in his backyard than Appy. So, your distance theory doesn't really hold water.

you're right, i was under the assumption that gsu was closer. i just looked, gsu is 36 miles farther. that is, to campus.

but that wasn't what i was talking about fully, i was talking about distance to the majority of alumni. app has a big core in charlotte, but the majority of alumni are in the triad and triangle. while gsu has their highest concentrations in savannah and atlanta which are closer to furman than app's core base.

[PaladinFan]

you're right, i was under the assumption that gsu was closer. i just looked, gsu is 36 miles farther. that is, to campus.

but that wasn't what i was talking about fully, i was talking about distance to the majority of alumni. app has a big core in charlotte, but the majority of alumni are in the triad and triangle. while gsu has their highest concentrations in savannah and atlanta which are closer to furman than app's core base.

I think it is not stunning that App would bring more fans to WCU and Elon. I speak only from my experience from attending Furman games, but GSU brings by far the largest contingent to Greenville of any team we play. They are the only visiting team that has come close to filling our East Stands.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I think it is not stunning that App would bring more fans to WCU and Elon. I speak only from my experience from attending Furman games, but GSU brings by far the largest contingent to Greenville of any team we play. They are the only visiting team that has come close to filling our East Stands.

Impossible. App's fan base is so much bigger than ours. Just ask them.

[Apphole]

Impossible. App's fan base is so much bigger than ours. Just ask them.

30k>22k

I do think you might have a bigger corps of hard-corps religious fans than we do, hence the travel, but not my much. Our success is younger.

[asumike83]

Impossible. App's fan base is so much bigger than ours. Just ask them.

Or just look at the numbers, where we've led the FCS in attendance 5 of the past 6 years. Last time GSU lead the FCS/1AA in attendance was...