Monmouth to Big South in FB in 2014

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://blogs.app.com/hawks

Patriot League misses opportunity to get to 8 teams. A golden opportunity.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Good move if your Monmouth. With that said, Liberty looks like a major outlier in terms of attendance and facilities. They did before the SBU defection, but even more so now.

[Dave195]

Monmouth plays @ Liberty on 9/7. They're following the Stony Brook path by adding scholarships and improving their facility. In a few years they'll join either the CAA or the Patriot League.

[citdog]

Good for Monmouth.

[DFW HOYA]

http://blogs.app.com/hawks

Patriot League misses opportunity to get to 8 teams. A golden opportunity.

Realsitically, the PL presdients aren't interested in any expansion beyond the unrequited trio of W&M, UR, and Villanova.

And if it decreased to six, the same "don't call us, we'll call you" approach would still apply.

[Franks Tanks]

Ya we really missed out here xrolleyesx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Ya we really missed out here xrolleyesx

From a strictly athletic standpoint Monmouth would be a great fit for the PL if they would spruce up their football stadium a bit. It's in a perfect location which allows relatively east access for all the schools already in the league. So if you're a fan of Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham, HC etc. it's another opportunity to see your team during the course of an athletic season.

[ccd494]

I eagerly await your magnum opus "University of Calcutta joins Northwest Indian Cricket Association: How this effects the Patriot League, Why the Presidents Didn't Act, and Damn Those Ivies are Cheating: a Hard-Hitting Investigation by Lehigh Football Nation."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Monmouth plays @ Liberty on 9/7. They're following the Stony Brook path by adding scholarships and improving their facility. In a few years they'll join either the CAA or the Patriot League.

The term of membership in the Big South is four years, FWIW.

[DFW HOYA]

From a strictly athletic standpoint Monmouth would be a great fit for the PL if they would spruce up their football stadium a bit.

As would Georgetown.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

As would Georgetown.

Very true. And you know Monmouth will be the first to do so.

[Dave195]

http://blogs.app.com/hawks/2013/02/14/mu-football-goes-south-to-go-up-my-view/

[fc97]

so if bryant, wagner or others follow this path, does anyone else think they'll go big south too?

[RichH2]

Good for MU. Not a loss to PL. Gives them 4 yrs to build program and then go for a more permanent home.

[kdinva]

http://www.gomuhawks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=67823&SPID=7664&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=206384469&DB_OEM_ID=14300

[superman7515]

Wow, you didn't even really try to change the name of this from the other thread... Haha

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?128880-Monmouth-to-Big-South-in-FB-in-2014

[hebmskebm]

so if bryant, wagner or others follow this path, does anyone else think they'll go big south too?

I can absolutely see a "poor man's" CAA made up of NEC and Big South schools who want to keep playing scholarship football and keep their AQ. The schools that don't get picked up by the CAA/SoCon/Patriot/FBS(Liberty) in any future moves would be facing slim pickings and tough scheduling; might as well band together.

[fc97]

well that would probably work out for the best. if the others move as thought, the big south will end up with a southern and northern tier for football. and one autobid will be lost for the playoffs. all in all, might work out for the best for all involved.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Of course us and App won't be affected because of our FBS move.............











(whistles like he's calling a dog)

[Apphole]

Of course us and App won't be affected because of our FBS move.............











(whistles like he's calling a dog)


Cmaxwellgsu must be on disability. You know, if you'd actually be healthy and exercise for a change which is something your kind in the very deep South knows very little about, this country's healthcare wouldn't be so screwed up, and Social Security wouldn't be at risk of extermination. I thank fat @sses like you for f-ing up this country. Lazy SOB's like you make it hard to build this country into something more than the slothful cesspool it has become thanks to people like you.


What he said! xlolx

[danefan]

well that would probably work out for the best. if the others move as thought, the big south will end up with a southern and northern tier for football. and one autobid will be lost for the playoffs. all in all, might work out for the best for all involved.

Should have done it 3 years ago when SBU joined the Big South. They probably would have ended up today with all the America East schools in the North division.

[LUHawker]

http://blogs.app.com/hawks

Patriot League misses opportunity to get to 8 teams. A golden opportunity.

Chuck - you are so desperate to have the PL add another team, any other team for football, it is painful to watch. Unless you think two teams are going to bolt any time soon, why wouldn't you wait to see how things shake out a little more?

[Seawolf97]

Good for them . I think the NEC stiffed them. They will be better off in the Big South minus the new travel costs.

[kdinva]

Wow, you didn't even really try to change the name of this from the other thread... Haha

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?128880-Monmouth-to-Big-South-in-FB-in-2014

I missed the other thread, I confess.......even you miss one a year, I bet. ;) xthumbsupx

Mr. moderator, please eliminate this thread.....

[elcid83]

Welcome to the Big South Monmouth!

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

[ngineer]

From a strictly athletic standpoint Monmouth would be a great fit for the PL if they would spruce up their football stadium a bit. It's in a perfect location which allows relatively east access for all the schools already in the league. So if you're a fan of Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham, HC etc. it's another opportunity to see your team during the course of an athletic season.

Only from a "strictly football standpoint". PL is primarily interested in all sports affiliation at this point. Moreover, for good or for ill, the PL Presidents don't see Monmouth fitting within the PL academic footprint. For us football fans it would have been great, but not in the bigger picture.

[henfan]

Another stick in the eye of the NEC. Time will tell if their rigid insistence on all sport membership & scholarship limits for FB will ultimately pay off. The reality is that MU, SBU and Albany are no longer involved in the conference. It'll be interesting to see how long CCSU sticks around.

[aceinthehole]

Another stick in the eye of the NEC. Time will tell if their rigid insistence on all sport membership & scholarship limits for FB will ultimately pay off. The reality is that MU, SBU and Albany are no longer involved in the conference. It'll be interesting to see how long CCSU sticks around.

For some of us, it has already been too long.

[RabidRabbit]

Wow, you didn't even really try to change the name of this from the other thread... Haha

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?128880-Monmouth-to-Big-South-in-FB-in-2014

Combined threads.

[Dave195]

http://blogs.app.com/hawks/2013/02/15/mu-football-press-conference-video-highlights/ At the end of this 90 second video you can see the first step of facility overhaul at MU.

[aceinthehole]

Looks like they will build a structure right behind the current granstand that will include press box, meeting rooms etc. Still requires town zoning approval.

Very good for MU, but it doesn't look like any increase in seating capacity at all. Should improve the game day for fans, but nothing to suggest any expansion.

[Dave195]

That's the first step (press box). But you are correct, even when the seats are renovated the capacity won't be greatly affected.

[ngineer]

Only need to spend money on increasing capacity if you show a need for it. What's MU's average and peak attendance, and is it really going to increase because of this move? Doubtful.

[citdog]

Only need to spend money on increasing capacity if you show a need for it. What's MU's average and peak attendance, and is it really going to increase because of this move? Doubtful.


Jealous much?

[Dave195]

Lehigh fans are unhappy cause they know MU will be in the Patriot League in 5 years time haha

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh fans are unhappy cause they know MU will be in the Patriot League in 5 years time haha

Some might be unhappy if they come to the PL in 5 years. Not me. I take the other view.

For example, why on Earth wait four years if your ultimate destination is the Patriot League? The CAA might have "need not apply if your facilities only average 4,000 fans in the seats" signs outside the office, but the Patriot League certainly doesn't. Look at Georgetown. Why waste time going to the Big South if your ultimate goal is the Patriot League anyway?

[Dave195]

I assume Patriot League wants them to go from 40 to 57 scholarships and improve their facility before granting them admission. MU tried to get into the Patriot League and CAA first. Big South was only choice left. Made MU sign a 4 yr agreement to stay in league which starts after this upcoming season, which they will play as an independent.

[DFW HOYA]

Only need to spend money on increasing capacity if you show a need for it. What's MU's average and peak attendance, and is it really going to increase because of this move? Doubtful.

Another factor: how many Big South fans are traveling to these games? If less than NEC teams, there's going to be no inherent demand to add seats.

[LUHawker]

I assume Patriot League wants them to go from 40 to 57 scholarships and improve their facility before granting them admission. MU tried to get into the Patriot League and CAA first. Big South was only choice left. Made MU sign a 4 yr agreement to stay in league which starts after this upcoming season, which they will play as an independent.

I wouldn't assume PL had a requirement before letting them in. Best case the PL presidents said, "Go increase your scholly count to 57 and then come back and talk to us." Even that seems unlikely to me. I don't ever see MU in the PL.

[citdog]

Another factor: how many Big South fans are traveling to these games? If less than NEC teams, there's going to be no inherent demand to add seats.

everyone doesn't want to play in a facility that a middle school would be ashamed of like georgetown does.

[DFW HOYA]

everyone doesn't want to play in a facility that a middle school would be ashamed of like georgetown does.

No one is happy with what Georgetown has, and certainly not the coaches who must recruit with that facility. But things move very slowly when the money isn't there to get it finished and the years of logistical and legal hurdles through which any project in the District of Columbia is approved.

[CFBfan]

everyone doesn't want to play in a facility that a middle school would be ashamed of like georgetown does.

your such a pathetic d-bag

[bjtheflamesfan]

The one thing Stony Brook had going for them when they moved into the Big South is that fortuitously enough Hofstra's football program got the axe and they ere able to pick up Maysonet and Jackolski (among others) and they got an immediate shot in the arm which led to them almost immediately becoming competitive in the conference

[ngineer]

Jealous much?

Of what?? Nothing of which to be jealous. I wouldn't mind MU to become an associate member of the PL, but I don't see that happening as the PL Presidents are looking for an 'all sports' affiliation with a school having a similar academic footprint. That's the stumbling block.

[dgtw]

Of what?? Nothing of which to be jealous. I wouldn't mind MU to become an associate member of the PL, but I don't see that happening as the PL Presidents are looking for an 'all sports' affiliation with a school having a similar academic footprint. That's the stumbling block.

God forbid a league be made up of like minded schools all playing the same sports.

[Dave195]

ngineer, you could not be more full of yourself. You went to Lehigh 40yrs ago and we get it. We're all super proud of you buddy haha... I hope you whisper that to yourself in the mirror every morning when you wake up. You went to a non-Ivy League school... KUDOS!! Go play with your grand-kids or something lol. Go Hawks!!

[ngineer]

ngineer, you could not be more full of yourself. You went to Lehigh 40yrs ago and we get it. We're all super proud of you buddy haha... I hope you whisper that to yourself in the mirror every morning when you wake up. You went to a non-Ivy League school... KUDOS!! Go play with your grand-kids or something lol. Go Hawks!!

My, someone has a self-esteem problem. I merely said what has been reported in numerous places over the past two years. The PL Presidents have been pretty clear during the whole debate over scholarships and expansion that they wanted "all sports" partners and schools with similar profiles. It only makes sense if you are trying to keep the recruiting playing field level amongst all the members. Yes, I am proud of having attended a rigorous academic school. Lehigh had a significant impact on my life and my career, and I wish everyone can say the same about their alma mater. And I do play with my grandkids almost every day. (;-)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The one thing Stony Brook had going for them when they moved into the Big South is that fortuitously enough Hofstra's football program got the axe and they ere able to pick up Maysonet and Jackolski (among others) and they got an immediate shot in the arm which led to them almost immediately becoming competitive in the conference

Agreed. Stony Brook entered the Big South with a large injection of talent, (I think) plans for a new 10,000+ seat stadium, and a mission. Monmouth is a very different school with very different goals and a very different situation.

I'm just wondering what's going to change in the next four years to make Monmouth more attractive to the CAA or Patriot League or vice versa. It's certainly not going to be a new press box. Will it be their academic profile? If you believe posters here, Monmouth will never be "academically worthy" enough, though it feels like only the "never-ever" five of Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, RPI or MIT are the only schools that meet that requirement. (Heck, even BU and Loyola didn't to those purists.)

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Who are Monmouth's peers? On the surface it would appear that MU's closest relatives reside in the NEC for football and the A10 MAAC for hoops. Granted, most of those schools have some sort of religous affiliations.

Maybe there is no good answer?

[knucklehead]

Welcome Monmouth! No offense, but I hope we are not in the same conference for long. Can't wait to meet you guys in Lynchburg this fall. Go Flames!

[Dave195]

You guys will be FBS soon enough... we'll be out of the Big South in 5 years.

[knucklehead]

Where are you going then?

[Go...gate]

Agreed. Stony Brook entered the Big South with a large injection of talent, (I think) plans for a new 10,000+ seat stadium, and a mission. Monmouth is a very different school with very different goals and a very different situation.

I'm just wondering what's going to change in the next four years to make Monmouth more attractive to the CAA or Patriot League or vice versa. It's certainly not going to be a new press box. Will it be their academic profile? If you believe posters here, Monmouth will never be "academically worthy" enough, though it feels like only the "never-ever" five of Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, RPI or MIT are the only schools that meet that requirement. (Heck, even BU and Loyola didn't to those purists.)

Why BU did not is still a mystery to me.

[ngineer]

Why BU did not is still a mystery to me.

I think the 'purists' saw BU's large enrollment as being contrary to the 'standard' PL profile. Too bad they are not reinstating football.

[Original_RMC]

I'm sure I could research this but it's probably just quicker to ask on this thread, but what are the requirements for a school from another conference to join the PL?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm sure I could research this but it's probably just quicker to ask on this thread, but what are the requirements for a school from another conference to join the PL?

The academic blessing of LU Hawker xlolx

Seriously, I think the requirements are, basically, 1) a willingness to play by the rules of the Patriot League academic index in recruiting (without a full explanation, essentially they need to be representative of the rest of the class), 2) a willingness to eschew redshirting unless there's a medical waiver, and and 3) the blessing of the other Presidents of the Patriot League.

Loyola and BU were the latest full members to join. BU has had a strong commitment to academics and athletics for a long time so they coasted in easily. Loyola was less strong in academics (though not as weak as some were trying to portray) but were willing to play by the rules, while both the PL and Greyhounds appreciated their NCAA championship Lacrosse team which shores up the PL's strength in the sport and gives Loyola a strong conference home there. Notably, though, neither school has football.

To this observer, 3) is the hardest thing to secure.

[DFW HOYA]

Seriously, I think the requirements are, basically, 1) a willingness to play by the rules of the Patriot League academic index in recruiting (without a full explanation, essentially they need to be representative of the rest of the class), 2) a willingness to eschew redshirting unless there's a medical waiver, and and 3) the blessing of the other Presidents of the Patriot League.


Never understood the executive resistance to redshirting other than it "appears" unseemly, not that it hurts the student academically. And when football players start taking classes online like Johnny Manziel is, more presidential grumbling to follow.

[PAllen]

Never understood the executive resistance to redshirting other than it "appears" unseemly, not that it hurts the student academically. And when football players start taking classes online like Johnny Manziel is, more presidential grumbling to follow.

It has to do with not all of the schools in the league having strong graduate programs. LU would love to redshirt, LC is strongly opposed.

[DFW HOYA]

It has to do with not all of the schools in the league having strong graduate programs. LU would love to redshirt, LC is strongly opposed.

Of course, one doesn't have to go to grad school for a 5th year. LC could offer a combined undergraduate degree over five years (e.g., International Studies-Engineering) that would accomodate redshirting, and get an extra year of tuition from full paying students also interested in the experience.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Never understood the executive resistance to redshirting other than it "appears" unseemly, not that it hurts the student academically. And when football players start taking classes online like Johnny Manziel is, more presidential grumbling to follow.

I think this goes all the way back to the Ivy League agreement in 1948 which opposed freshman playing on varsity teams. For a surprisingly long time this was the case in the IL before they finally relented. I believe that the opposition to redshirting is a sop to this "founding principle" for both the PL and IL.

Of course, all this means is that enterprising teams find a way around the rules. Yale took in a whole slew of transfer students who - oddly enough! - redshirted. Harvard mysteriously has seen starting players "take a year off due to academics" - when injuries to key players meant, magically, they were able to play once again. It's not just Harvard and Yale, though. Every PL and IL team has had medical redshirts, kids who took "time off", or the like. They function as redshirts.

[DFW HOYA]

The days of a four year residential experience for college are coming to an end real soon.

The arrival of MOOC's (online courses), changing demographics, and the untenable rise in costs all threaten many of the core PL schools that are either unable or unwilling to make the foundational changes needed for a new generation of students who are not going to fill those dorm rooms and who neither expect nor will commit to a four year commitment for an education.

[LUHawker]

The academic blessing of LU Hawker xlolx

Seriously, I think the requirements are, basically, 1) a willingness to play by the rules of the Patriot League academic index in recruiting (without a full explanation, essentially they need to be representative of the rest of the class), 2) a willingness to eschew redshirting unless there's a medical waiver, and and 3) the blessing of the other Presidents of the Patriot League.

Loyola and BU were the latest full members to join. BU has had a strong commitment to academics and athletics for a long time so they coasted in easily. Loyola was less strong in academics (though not as weak as some were trying to portray) but were willing to play by the rules, while both the PL and Greyhounds appreciated their NCAA championship Lacrosse team which shores up the PL's strength in the sport and gives Loyola a strong conference home there. Notably, though, neither school has football.

To this observer, 3) is the hardest thing to secure.

It is not simply academics. It goes beyond that to include things like alumni base, endowment,reputation, history and tradition as well as what a particular institution brings to the table. It is a multi-faceted assessment that should not be forsaken just to "get the numbers". Quality matters here Chuck! For the record, I thought BU was a good addition; my only reservation with BU has to do with the size of the school and the fit with the PL in this regard. Not a fan of Loyola, their prowess in lacrosse notwithstanding.

[DFW HOYA]

It is not simply academics. It goes beyond that to include things like alumni base, endowment,reputation, history and tradition as well as what a particular institution brings to the table. It is a multi-faceted assessment that should not be forsaken just to "get the numbers". Quality matters here Chuck!

In the world of the purists, the PL should be the following:

Bucknell
Colgate
Hobart
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Rensselear
Union

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

In the world of the purists, the PL should be the following:

Bucknell
Colgate
Hobart
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Rensselear
Union

Imo, Lehigh has more in common with Fordham, Drexel, Villanova, Richmond, and GWU.

[Franks Tanks]

Of course, one doesn't have to go to grad school for a 5th year. LC could offer a combined undergraduate degree over five years (e.g., International Studies-Engineering) that would accomodate redshirting, and get an extra year of tuition from full paying students also interested in the experience.

A few students double major and spend 5 years at LC, but it is generally counter productive to pay for a whole extra year to add the major rather than perhaps just a minor. Also most guys that redshirt for football at any school are gone after the fall semester so you are typically looking at 4.5 years.

LC and HC have never had graduates programs. Colgate and Bucknell have limited programs.

[PAllen]

Imo, Lehigh has more in common with Fordham, Drexel, Villanova, Richmond, and GWU.

My wife went to GW, and trust me, Lehigh has very little in common with GW. Although, perhaps more than LU has in common with American. I see BU as another American, which I'm not thrilled about. But, as I said at the time, if the HC guys like it, I can go along with it. The Loyola thing is a whole different story. Yeah, they're private, yeah they're about the right size, yeah they have a good lacrosse program, but that's about it. Oh well, the PL is not the semi-exclusive club it once was for better or worse.

[Go...gate]

The academic blessing of LU Hawker xlolx

Seriously, I think the requirements are, basically, 1) a willingness to play by the rules of the Patriot League academic index in recruiting (without a full explanation, essentially they need to be representative of the rest of the class), 2) a willingness to eschew redshirting unless there's a medical waiver, and and 3) the blessing of the other Presidents of the Patriot League.

Loyola and BU were the latest full members to join. BU has had a strong commitment to academics and athletics for a long time so they coasted in easily. Loyola was less strong in academics (though not as weak as some were trying to portray) but were willing to play by the rules, while both the PL and Greyhounds appreciated their NCAA championship Lacrosse team which shores up the PL's strength in the sport and gives Loyola a strong conference home there. Notably, though, neither school has football.

To this observer, 3) is the hardest thing to secure.

LFN, I am one of your greatest supporters but I cannot agree with you on this one. I hope I'm wrong, but I believe the PL will regret Loyola as an admission which measurably lowered the conference's academic profile.

[Go...gate]

In the world of the purists, the PL should be the following:

Bucknell
Colgate
Hobart
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Rensselear
Union

A Division I conference with this membership? I'd sign for that in a minute. You might also want to consider Stevens Institute of Technology.

[Go...gate]

My wife went to GW, and trust me, Lehigh has very little in common with GW. Although, perhaps more than LU has in common with American. I see BU as another American, which I'm not thrilled about. But, as I said at the time, if the HC guys like it, I can go along with it. The Loyola thing is a whole different story. Yeah, they're private, yeah they're about the right size, yeah they have a good lacrosse program, but that's about it. Oh well, the PL is not the semi-exclusive club it once was for better or worse.

For worse, IMO.

[Babar]

I think this goes all the way back to the Ivy League agreement in 1948 which opposed freshman playing on varsity teams. For a surprisingly long time this was the case in the IL before they finally relented. I believe that the opposition to redshirting is a sop to this "founding principle" for both the PL and IL.

Of course, all this means is that enterprising teams find a way around the rules. Yale took in a whole slew of transfer students who - oddly enough! - redshirted. Harvard mysteriously has seen starting players "take a year off due to academics" - when injuries to key players meant, magically, they were able to play once again. It's not just Harvard and Yale, though. Every PL and IL team has had medical redshirts, kids who took "time off", or the like. They function as redshirts.

The idea is that playing years should correspond to years of study, and that students should be finishing their degrees in four years. As you say, people find loopholes.

[Babar]

The days of a four year residential experience for college are coming to an end real soon.

The arrival of MOOC's (online courses), changing demographics, and the untenable rise in costs all threaten many of the core PL schools that are either unable or unwilling to make the foundational changes needed for a new generation of students who are not going to fill those dorm rooms and who neither expect nor will commit to a four year commitment for an education.

I don't know that I agree. For all the hype, MOOCs haven't created anything substantially different than correspondence courses (or public libraries) created a hundred-plus years ago. And the paradox of broadening access to education is that socialization and networking (which can only happen in residence), and prestige and the self-reinforcing effects of selectivity (which are pretty strongly tied to a residential model) become more important in the "market" for education.

I do think that we've overbuilt, that a lot of colleges are probably unsustainable financially, and we'll see more go under over the next decade. But folks were sending their kids to college long before it was thought of as a certification for a desk job, and they'll be sending their kids for a long time after that.

[DFW HOYA]

I do think that we've overbuilt, that a lot of colleges are probably unsustainable financially, and we'll see more go under over the next decade. But folks were sending their kids to college long before it was thought of as a certification for a desk job, and they'll be sending their kids for a long time after that.

There will always be a place for a four year experience at places like Princeton and Georgetown. But will the next generation want to pay $60,000, $70,000 or $100,000 a year to go to places like (not picking on any of these schools, merely for illustration) Rider, Iona, Widener, Seton Hall, et. al. when they could take a mix of online and co-op courses for half the price?

Add to the mix the steady decline in the northeastern high school populations and the boom in the Hispanic populations in the south and west--they're not coming to Pennsylvania and New Jersey to go to college. Soomething's got to (and gonna) give.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There will always be a place for a four year experience at places like Princeton and Georgetown. But will the next generation want to pay $60,000, $70,000 or $100,000 a year to go to places like (not picking on any of these schools, merely for illustration) Rider, Iona, Widener, Seton Hall, et. al. when they could take a mix of online and co-op courses for half the price?

Add to the mix the steady decline in the northeastern high school populations and the boom in the Hispanic populations in the south and west--they're not coming to Pennsylvania and New Jersey to go to college. Soomething's got to (and gonna) give.

There are a huge amount of trends to consider - you could also have mentioned the decline of religious education, with a multitude of Catholic schools across the country closing and consolidating. You could have also mentioned the role of state legislatures divesting themselves somewhat from supporting state-run schools and thus creating funding crises, or having (chortle) the athletic departments support the schools more, in some rare cases.

I think it's fiendishly hard to predict where it's all going to go. MOOC's will be a part of it, but it won't kill off private colleges and universities (or community colleges for that matter). Declining religious education will be a part of it, but Holy Cross, Villanova and Notre Dame, can rest easy, since plenty of people will still want to go there for school. At the heart of it is people's perception of education and the same age-old questions - is education a well-rounded liberal arts curriculum? Is education learning a trade at the exclusion of other things? Should it be athletics-free, a "glorified study hall"? Is being boarded away from home an essential part of the "college experience", or can it be achieved by living at home and going to classes?

[Babar]

There will always be a place for a four year experience at places like Princeton and Georgetown. But will the next generation want to pay $60,000, $70,000 or $100,000 a year to go to places like (not picking on any of these schools, merely for illustration) Rider, Iona, Widener, Seton Hall, et. al. when they could take a mix of online and co-op courses for half the price?

Add to the mix the steady decline in the northeastern high school populations and the boom in the Hispanic populations in the south and west--they're not coming to Pennsylvania and New Jersey to go to college. Soomething's got to (and gonna) give.

Very much this. The schools that will be hurt the most are the smaller, lower-profile private liberal arts schools in the Northeast and Midwest.

I don't know if tens of thousands of folks will be grinding out MOOC degrees from their parents' basements shortly, but whatever they do--they may all go to Montclair State, or migrate to Arizona, or they may keep going where they're going--tuition at small Northeastern private colleges cannot keep climbing for the next ten years at the present rate.

[Babar]

There are a huge amount of trends to consider - you could also have mentioned the decline of religious education, with a multitude of Catholic schools across the country closing and consolidating. You could have also mentioned the role of state legislatures divesting themselves somewhat from supporting state-run schools and thus creating funding crises, or having (chortle) the athletic departments support the schools more, in some rare cases.

I think it's fiendishly hard to predict where it's all going to go. MOOC's will be a part of it, but it won't kill off private colleges and universities (or community colleges for that matter). Declining religious education will be a part of it, but Holy Cross, Villanova and Notre Dame, can rest easy, since plenty of people will still want to go there for school. At the heart of it is people's perception of education and the same age-old questions - is education a well-rounded liberal arts curriculum? Is education learning a trade at the exclusion of other things? Should it be athletics-free, a "glorified study hall"? Is being boarded away from home an essential part of the "college experience", or can it be achieved by living at home and going to classes?

Makes me sad to see so many parish schools closing--capping what was once a pipeline to Catholic colleges--due to no fault of the schools or lack of demand for seats. Those schools were doing exactly what they were supposed to do, often in poor neighborhoods, and outperforming publics decade after decade.

I talked to an athletic trainer today who believes he can't get a job working with collegiate tennis and volleyball players without a Masters degree. And he's probably right. Of course, he's already got student debt from his undergrad program. The certification rat race is driving so much of this dysfunction.

[Go Green]

Makes me sad to see so many parish schools closing--capping what was once a pipeline to Catholic colleges--due to no fault of the schools or lack of demand for seats. Those schools were doing exactly what they were supposed to do, often in poor neighborhoods, and outperforming publics decade after decade.
.

I have happy memories of my catholic elementary schools years. It is a shame what is going on. Some things were within the schools' control that could have been avoided with better planning. Others were not.

Anyone who wants to read an excellent article on this topic, see here: http://educationnext.org/can-catholic-schools-be-saved/

[fc97]

the one thing your are all missing is as the government encourages everyone to attend college, the bachelor degree will become the new high school diploma. if everyone has one, they are nearly worthless and some differentiating factor will have to be applied to weight what they are. employers continue and will continue to weigh tradition college education over that of online courses, and it will show in transcripts. it becomes a detail of discipline of doing something over taking the easy or cheap way. if someone is willing to take a disciplined approach, they are going to be willing to do that on the job too. if they take the easy way out, they'll be passed over every time by the people who didn't.

i see this almost every day already.

[dgreco]

the one thing your are all missing is as the government encourages everyone to attend college, the bachelor degree will become the new high school diploma. if everyone has one, they are nearly worthless and some differentiating factor will have to be applied to weight what they are. employers continue and will continue to weigh tradition college education over that of online courses, and it will show in transcripts. it becomes a detail of discipline of doing something over taking the easy or cheap way. if someone is willing to take a disciplined approach, they are going to be willing to do that on the job too. if they take the easy way out, they'll be passed over every time by the people who didn't.

i see this almost every day already.

Many schools (that do not have the stigma of being an "online school") do not indicate if a course is taken online or on campus. If the student attends a public or private university in his/her home state it would be nearly impossible to learn if he/she earned that campus driven education.

Also, with the way classes are taught now (blackboard, campuscruiser etc.) and the fact that most students have computers in class (and are not paying attention) the students are most likely learning the same way an online student would be.

[ngineer]

Red shirting CAN be advantageous as it takes some of the pressure off academically. I've seen a great improvement in the academic success of the wrestling team since those kids have been allowed to RS. Of course, wrestling is the toughest sport there is with the weight control.

[Babar]

Red shirting CAN be advantageous as it takes some of the pressure off academically. I've seen a great improvement in the academic success of the wrestling team since those kids have been allowed to RS. Of course, wrestling is the toughest sport there is with the weight control.

Right, but by the same token, an extra year would take the pressure off of non-athletes. We want everybody to graduate in four years.

[ngineer]

Right, but by the same token, an extra year would take the pressure off of non-athletes. We want everybody to graduate in four years.

I agree that should be the goal. The one thing about RS, though, is that it can really give an advantage to the RS team. Having that "extra" year to get bigger and stronger can be a huge difference. I grew a full inch and added 30 lbs from my freshman year to sophomore; and some of these kids have come from high schools (pubic and private) that also RS, so some of these "kids" are almost two additional years older...a bunch of 22-23 year olds can have a significant physical and experience advantage over a bunch of 19 year olds.