For those moving on up to the east side (FBS)

[dungeonjoe]

A word or two for the new year

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/30/sports/ncaafootball/universities-chase-big-time-glory-in-fbs.html?hp&_r=0



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Laker]

Near the end, I thought that these were interesting statements. First, does everyone in 1-AA lose money on football? And what happens when the big boys want their own "higher" division?

“Everyone in I-AA loses money and doesn’t get much for it,” Lombardi said. “But even a crummy team in I-A football has higher visibility than a great team in I-AA. So while there are more costs to move up, the universities think that maybe they’ll at least get something for it.

“Of course, it’s an illusion that you can make money moving up. What they’re really trying to do is align themselves with the better-known institutions.”

But Lombardi sees a brewing quandary.

“The number of F.B.S.-level football teams is already too large to be sustainable,” he said. “And the teams at the top are a very strong, organized group. As more schools join at the bottom, it’s going to force the N.C.A.A. to restructure. They’ll have to start putting F.B.S. teams into categories.

“So there will be a second tier again, and that’s certainly not what a lot of these people joining now had in mind. What happens then?”

[Saint3333]

Actually it is what many people are thinking. Better to align yourself with the have-not FBS programs and ensure you are part of that second tier.

[texcap]

Near the end, I thought that these were interesting statements. First, does everyone in 1-AA lose money on football? And what happens when the big boys want their own "higher" division?

“Everyone in I-AA loses money and doesn’t get much for it,” Lombardi said. “But even a crummy team in I-A football has higher visibility than a great team in I-AA. So while there are more costs to move up, the universities think that maybe they’ll at least get something for it.

“Of course, it’s an illusion that you can make money moving up. What they’re really trying to do is align themselves with the better-known institutions.”

But Lombardi sees a brewing quandary.

“The number of F.B.S.-level football teams is already too large to be sustainable,” he said. “And the teams at the top are a very strong, organized group. As more schools join at the bottom, it’s going to force the N.C.A.A. to restructure. They’ll have to start putting F.B.S. teams into categories.

“So there will be a second tier again, and that’s certainly not what a lot of these people joining now had in mind. What happens then?”

I think part of the concern is not being pushed down even further. If there is a new "second tier" of FBS, what would that make the FCS? A third tier?

In addition many of the schools contemplating moving up (App State, Ga Southern, etc.) remember competing with peers that are now in FBS, (the Marshalls, ECU's, Troy's, WKU's, etc) and have a significant fear of getting left behind again.

[major095]

the number of fbs teams is too large according to who? there are 125 fbs football playing schools but over 300 DI basketball programs. so what makes 125 too many? soo....maybe seperating IA & IAA in the 70's wasn't a great idea. maybe should just go back to DI encompassing all of fbs and fcs and call it a day.

[JSUBison]

Near the end, I thought that these were interesting statements. First, does everyone in 1-AA lose money on football? And what happens when the big boys want their own "higher" division?

“Everyone in I-AA loses money and doesn’t get much for it,” Lombardi said. “But even a crummy team in I-A football has higher visibility than a great team in I-AA. So while there are more costs to move up, the universities think that maybe they’ll at least get something for it.

“Of course, it’s an illusion that you can make money moving up. What they’re really trying to do is align themselves with the better-known institutions.”

But Lombardi sees a brewing quandary.

“The number of F.B.S.-level football teams is already too large to be sustainable,” he said. “And the teams at the top are a very strong, organized group. As more schools join at the bottom, it’s going to force the N.C.A.A. to restructure. They’ll have to start putting F.B.S. teams into categories.

“So there will be a second tier again, and that’s certainly not what a lot of these people joining now had in mind. What happens then?”

I'm sure there are schools in FCS that make money. Doesn't Montana make money from their program, but because the way the accounting is set up they have to fund other programs or courses of study? I think they technically show a loss but a griz fan would know more than I. I"m sure there are other FB programs (ASU, JMU?) that take in more than they spend, but for some reason or another have to act like the mafia with the cash by shuffling it around.

[Laker]

I'm sure there are schools in FCS that make money. Doesn't Montana make money from their program, but because the way the accounting is set up they have to fund other programs or courses of study? I think they technically show a loss but a griz fan would know more than I. I"m sure there are other FB programs (ASU, JMU?) that take in more than they spend, but for some reason or another have to act like the mafia with the cash by shuffling it around.

That is what I thought- someone has to be pulling it in, but on the accounting sheet it comes out as balanced or at a loss. What about NDSU? Or is it that they have to support other sports so it comes out as a loss?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

That is what I thought- someone has to be pulling it in, but on the accounting sheet it comes out as balanced or at a loss. What about NDSU? Or is it that they have to support other sports so it comes out as a loss?

NDSU is definitely the cash cow of the athletic department.

[marenlee]

There are really only a handful if Cbs teams that do make money. And those are the top programs

Edit. A little off. But here's a good article http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-08-30/fbs-programs-profit-revenue-economics-fsc-texas-florida-ohio-state-georgia-state

[citdog]

I wonder why this type of fair and reasoned writing cannot seem to make its way to the editorial page of the new york times? If it could they might not be in so much trouble financially.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I wonder why this type of fair and reasoned writing cannot seem to make its way to the editorial page of the new york times? If it could they might not be in so much trouble financially.

Because there's no AGS equivalent for the NY times to refer to for all its other reporting.

[Ivytalk]

Good article. Always liked the NYT sports section. Just about the only place you can get Ivy coverage on a weekly basis beyond the box scores.

[walliver]

I think part of the concern is not being pushed down even further. If there is a new "second tier" of FBS, what would that make the FCS? A third tier?

In addition many of the schools contemplating moving up (App State, Ga Southern, etc.) remember competing with peers that are now in FBS, (the Marshalls, ECU's, Troy's, WKU's, etc) and have a significant fear of getting left behind again.

But would the new "mid-level" DI subdivision actually be relevant?

The current problem most FCS schools face is that to the general public (and ESPN), there is FBS and then "everybody else".

If FBS splits into "FBS-1" and "FBS-2", will there be any real media money for "FBS-2"? More likely than not, the situation would become "FBS-1 vs. everybody else". If schools and their fans feel that playing in the Sunbelt, C-USA, MAC, or WAC enhances the game-day experience for fans, makes administrators feel better, and somehow enhances the school's reputation then by all means they should move, but they should not expect big time money or respect, because that ain't happening.

[DFW HOYA]

Good article. Always liked the NYT sports section. Just about the only place you can get Ivy coverage on a weekly basis beyond the box scores.

Outside the Ivy coverage, it's among the worst sports sections in the nation. Very little comprehensive coverage, and much of it is viewed from the Upper West Side/Westchester County worldview of its readers. Reading about Alabama-Notre Dame or the Daytona 500 is a strange and foreign concept to the NYT reader.

[darell1976]

I would love to see a list of all the teams that make money in the FCS, I would imagine the big football schools like Montana, MSU, App St, Georgia Southern, NDSU, etc. would be your money makers. I know UND makes money in hockey with all our sellouts (we are like the Nebraska of DI hockey), but as far as making money in the FCS I would say UND is close but not making it.

[Bill]

I would love to see a list of all the teams that make money in the FCS, I would imagine the big football schools like Montana, MSU, App St, Georgia Southern, NDSU, etc. would be your money makers. I know UND makes money in hockey with all our sellouts (we are like the Nebraska of DI hockey), but as far as making money in the FCS I would say UND is close but not making it.

Darrell

Not trying to be a wise -***...but how much does your coaching staff make in salary/bonus? Hockey, with travel, ice, etc. included, usually doesn't make as much money as you may think....

[darell1976]

Darrell

Not trying to be a wise -***...but how much does your coaching staff make in salary/bonus? Hockey, with travel, ice, etc. included, usually doesn't make as much money as you may think....

Our head hockey coach makes 300,000 with incentives reaching another 150,000. He just signed on for another 6 years.

Here is an article on top revenue hockey schools (dated 2010): http://www.bcinterruption.com/2012/4/12/2942848/comparing-ncaa-college-hockey-revenues-for-2010

Here is the top 10 based on 2010 revenues:

1. Minnesota Golden Gophers (WCHA) -- $ 6,681,561
2. Wisconsin Badgers (WCHA) -- $5,297,711
3. Michigan Wolverines (CCHA) -- $4,102,771
4. North Dakota Fighting Sioux (WCHA) -- $3,915,971
5. Boston College Eagles (Hockey East) -- $3,702,040
6. Colorado College Tigers (WCHA) -- $3,059,597
7. Boston University Terriers (Hockey East) -- $2,973,001
8. Nebraska-Omaha Mavericks (WCHA) -- $2,795,864
9. New Hampshire Wildcats (Hockey East) -- $2,553,028
10. Maine Black Bears (Hockey East) -- $2,508,238

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3230303238302679656 1723d323031312673656172636843726974657269613d33313 36436653666373237343638323036343631366236663734363 13236373236343734336433313332326633333330326633323 33033313332323033353361333333323361333533373230353 03464267264743d31322f33302f3230313220353a33323a353 720504d

UND hockey expense: $536,220 Revenue: $3,318,211 in ticket sales alone. (FY2012) I think UND hockey does very well.

[Laker]

8. Nebraska-Omaha Mavericks (WCHA) -- $2,795,864

I'm surprised that UNO is that high and that Michigan State isn't in the top ten.

[darell1976]

I'm surprised that UNO is that high and that Michigan State isn't in the top ten.

So did it really pay to drop football and wrestling to move to DI? All so they can put more money into hockey. I know schools favor 1 or 2 sports over the rest but to drop top ticket sports like football and wrestling (a good program too) just for hockey doesn't quite add up.

[Laker]

So did it really pay to drop football and wrestling to move to DI? All so they can put more money into hockey. I know schools favor 1 or 2 sports over the rest but to drop top ticket sports like football and wrestling (a good program too) just for hockey doesn't quite add up.

I'm 100% in agreement with you. I was shocked when they dropped those two sports. How would you like to come back from winning the national championship and finding that they had changed the locks when you got back to your locker room? If one of the wrestlers had put Trev Alberts into a Mongolian Cluster hold it would have been appropriate.

Back in the old NCC, I always thought of the Red Mavs as a football school.

[darell1976]

I'm 100% in agreement with you. I was shocked when they dropped those two sports. How would you like to come back from winning the national championship and finding that they had changed the locks when you got back to your locker room? If one of the wrestlers had put Trev Alberts into a Mongolian Cluster hold it would have been appropriate.

Back in the old NCC, I always thought of the Red Mavs as a football school.

Me too, they gave us problems. They were the only team to beat us in our 2001 National Title year. I think Nebraska-Lincoln wanted to be the only DI football school in the state that's why they did that, and of course UNL has priority over UNO.

[Laker]

Me too, they gave us problems. They were the only team to beat us in our 2001 National Title year. I think Nebraska-Lincoln wanted to be the only DI football school in the state that's why they did that, and of course UNL has priority over UNO.

I've heard that from some of my Nebraska friends. It was like- UNL has football, UNO has hockey, Creighton has basketball. That sounds very conspiracy theory, but still.....

For many years it seemed like UNO was a farm club for UNL- they would send the guys who couldn't quite make it for them to play for the Red Mavs.

[darell1976]

I've heard that from some of my Nebraska friends. It was like- UNL has football, UNO has hockey, Creighton has basketball. That sounds very conspiracy theory, but still.....

For many years it seemed like UNO was a farm club for UNL- they would send the guys who couldn't quite make it for them to play for the Red Mavs.

They had a good coach too. Former UND coach Pat Behrns. Its a shame. As for DI basketball....I don't really see them challenging NDSU or SDSU or even the Coyotes for a SL Title. They should have stayed in DII.

[Hammerhead]

Lots of people think Northern Illinois doesn't belong in the Orange Bowl and aren't in the same "league" as the real college football powers which indicates people already know there are 2 levels of FBS football. Most fans don't know that the top 10 teams (at least) in the FCS would be very competitive in one of the non-AQ FBS conferences.

[PaladinFan]

Lots of people think Northern Illinois doesn't belong in the Orange Bowl and aren't in the same "league" as the real college football powers which indicates people already know there are 2 levels of FBS football. Most fans don't know that the top 10 teams (at least) in the FCS would be very competitive in one of the non-AQ FBS conferences.

If the Non-AQ teams and the FCS teams had the same number of scholarship players, I'd say it'd be more than that.

[ASUMountaineer]

But would the new "mid-level" DI subdivision actually be relevant?

The current problem most FCS schools face is that to the general public (and ESPN), there is FBS and then "everybody else".

If FBS splits into "FBS-1" and "FBS-2", will there be any real media money for "FBS-2"? More likely than not, the situation would become "FBS-1 vs. everybody else". If schools and their fans feel that playing in the Sunbelt, C-USA, MAC, or WAC enhances the game-day experience for fans, makes administrators feel better, and somehow enhances the school's reputation then by all means they should move, but they should not expect big time money or respect, because that ain't happening.

Why is there so much concern about schools people are not fans of moving to FBS? Who are you trying to convince to maintain the status quo?


Note: This is a general statement, not directed solely at you.

[PaladinFan]

Why is there so much concern about schools people are not fans of moving to FBS? Who are you trying to convince to maintain the status quo?


Note: This is a general statement, not directed solely at you.

Its a forum on the FCS. If folks wanted opinions just on their own team, they can go to their own team forum.

[ASUMountaineer]

Its a forum on the FCS. If folks wanted opinions just on their own team, they can go to their own team forum.

I didn't ask about opinions, I asked about concern and the attempt to convince. Why do they care so much about what Appalachian decides, and the need to try and convince anonymous posters uninvolved in the decision. I guess I'm not sure why these posters are so invested in ASU's decision.

[Saint3333]

App and GSU leaving does have an impact of them even if it is only short-term.

If they claim it doesn't, we'll then I'm not sure it should matter to them.

[BearIt]

Not all programs in FCS lose money. Montana made $3.3 million last year and MSU made $1.15 million.

Griz Football posts $3.3M profit (http://missoulian.com/sports/college/montana/football/griz-football-program-posts-m-profit/article_05181d26-52e1-11e2-ad34-001a4bcf887a.html)

[Bisonator]

Why is there so much concern about schools people are not fans of moving to FBS? Who are you trying to convince to maintain the status quo?


Note: This is a general statement, not directed solely at you.
Probably because losing schools like App and GSU will hurt FCS. Just like when the BCS schools decide to leave FBS. And they will it's only a matter of time. That and it's kind of sad to see once proud teams like Marshall become irrelevant.

[citdog]

That and it's kind of sad to see once proud teams like Marshall become irrelevant.


those folks got what they deserved.

[Bisonator]

those folks got what they deserved.

OK. Bad example.:D

[taper]

Our head hockey coach makes 300,000 with incentives reaching another 150,000. He just signed on for another 6 years.

Here is an article on top revenue hockey schools (dated 2010): http://www.bcinterruption.com/2012/4/12/2942848/comparing-ncaa-college-hockey-revenues-for-2010

Here is the top 10 based on 2010 revenues:

1. Minnesota Golden Gophers (WCHA) -- $ 6,681,561
2. Wisconsin Badgers (WCHA) -- $5,297,711
3. Michigan Wolverines (CCHA) -- $4,102,771
4. North Dakota Fighting Sioux (WCHA) -- $3,915,971
5. Boston College Eagles (Hockey East) -- $3,702,040
6. Colorado College Tigers (WCHA) -- $3,059,597
7. Boston University Terriers (Hockey East) -- $2,973,001
8. Nebraska-Omaha Mavericks (WCHA) -- $2,795,864
9. New Hampshire Wildcats (Hockey East) -- $2,553,028
10. Maine Black Bears (Hockey East) -- $2,508,238

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3230303238302679656 1723d323031312673656172636843726974657269613d33313 36436653666373237343638323036343631366236663734363 13236373236343734336433313332326633333330326633323 33033313332323033353361333333323361333533373230353 03464267264743d31322f33302f3230313220353a33323a353 720504d

UND hockey expense: $536,220 Revenue: $3,318,211 in ticket sales alone. (FY2012) I think UND hockey does very well.

You sure about that? $300k+ for the head coach doesn't leave much for other salaries, travel, equipment, etc. Don't know if the money to run the Ralph comes from the university, but it should be included. I don't doubt your program makes money, but not that much.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I wonder why this type of fair and reasoned writing cannot seem to make its way to the editorial page of the new york times? If it could they might not be in so much trouble financially.

The New York Times is profitable. Do not mistake paywall poor mouth for an earnings report.

[darell1976]

You sure about that? $300k+ for the head coach doesn't leave much for other salaries, travel, equipment, etc. Don't know if the money to run the Ralph comes from the university, but it should be included. I don't doubt your program makes money, but not that much.

UND rents the Ralph for ONE DOLLAR!!

[Laker]

UND rents the Ralph for ONE DOLLAR!!

That is the best deal since Peter Minuit bought Manhatten. xthumbsupx

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

the number of fbs teams is too large according to who? there are 125 fbs football playing schools but over 300 DI basketball programs. so what makes 125 too many? soo....maybe seperating IA & IAA in the 70's wasn't a great idea. maybe should just go back to DI encompassing all of fbs and fcs and call it a day.

or separate DI Football into scholarship/non-scholarship programs. That will work too.

[Sader87]

UND rents the Ralph for ONE DOLLAR!!


Holy Cross at the Ralph this weekend....

[DFW HOYA]

or separate DI Football into scholarship/non-scholarship programs. That will work too.

2013:
Scholarship: 227
Non-scholarship: 21

[Babar]

or separate DI Football into scholarship/non-scholarship programs. That will work too.

Not totally clear how kicking out the Ivies, Pioneers, and Georgetown is going to fix the larger problem here, which seems to be that the gap between the schools at the very top of the DI pyramid and everybody else is growing yearly and that everybody's swimming as hard as they can just to tread water...

...but hey, by all means. Just, um, slap a DII label on us and pretty soon everybody else will be raking in the dough like Texas and accumulating championships like Bama.

Roll Tide.xthumbsupx

[taper]

UND rents the Ralph for ONE DOLLAR!!
That didn't answer my question. The donation-in-kind from REA takes a big chunk out of it but no way the hockey budget is only $536k.

[walliver]

Rumor is that Penn State (actually the state) is suing the NCAA on anti-trust grounds.

I wonder if this lawsuit could start dominoes falling that would block the NCAA from enforcing its blatantly anticompetitive rule that a FCS team has to be invited to join a conference in order to transition to FBS?

[bluehenbillk]

Rumor is that Penn State (actually the state) is suing the NCAA on anti-trust grounds.

I wonder if this lawsuit could start dominoes falling that would block the NCAA from enforcing its blatantly anticompetitive rule that a FCS team has to be invited to join a conference in order to transition to FBS?

The state of PA is suing the NCAA not to reduce the sanctions on PSU, but to try to maximize the amount of the $60M fine that PSU has to pay to stay in the state of PA. PA wants all $60M to be designated inside the state boundaries while the NCAA has said that upto $15M of the $60M will.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The state of PA suing the NCAA is grandstanding, pure and simple. Corbett trying to get political gain from the issue. Nothing to see here, folks.

[DFW HOYA]

The state of PA suing the NCAA is grandstanding, pure and simple. Corbett trying to get political gain from the issue. Nothing to see here, folks.

As were the NCAA penalties on Penn State, grandstanding. Sandusky's criminal actions were not related to NCAA enforcement.

[aceinthehole]

As were the NCAA penalties on Penn State, grandstanding. Sandusky's criminal actions were not related to NCAA enforcement.

Exactly. And how is the NCAA in a position to distribute fines to child-protection and anti-abuse non-profits across the nation?

The NCAA is an intercollegiate athletic administrative body, not a government entity. They have overstepped their authority and the Penn. Governor or State Supreme Court should have stepped in a long time ago and put the entire University under a consent decree or something. This is not an NCAA issue. It is a criminal and State matter. The entire NCAA handling of this tragedy was a farce from the beginning.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exactly. And how is the NCAA in a position to distribute fines to child-protection and anti-abuse non-profits across the nation?

The NCAA is an intercollegiate athletic administrative body, not a government entity. They have overstepped their authority and the Penn. Governor or State Supreme Court should have stepped in a long time ago and put the entire University under a consent decree or something. This is not an NCAA issue. It is a criminal and State matter. The entire NCAA handling of this tragedy was a farce from the beginning.

If Corbett had done ANYTHING in the PAST DECADE the NCAA wouldn't have had to step in. We'd still be waiting for anybody to do anything.

The NCAA could have stripped Penn State of their NCAA accreditation, if that would have been a better option.

[bluehenbillk]

If Corbett had done ANYTHING in the PAST DECADE the NCAA wouldn't have had to step in. We'd still be waiting for anybody to do anything.


Agreed 100%.

[344Johnson]

UND rents the Ralph for ONE DOLLAR!!

I imagine the expenses listed are just coaching salaries perhaps?

[darell1976]

I imagine the expenses listed are just coaching salaries perhaps?

http://athleticscholarships.com/mens-ice-hockey-scholarships/university-of-north-dakota/

I think this is the numbers (2010):



Detailed Breakdown

University of North Dakota

Total Number of Athletes 25
Average Operating Expenses Per Player $20,315
Average Operating Expenses Per Team $507,886
Total Full Time Head Coaches 2
Total Part Time Head Coaches 0
Total Full Time Assistant Coaches 2
Total Part Time Assistant Coaches 2
Average Total Revenue $3,629,703
Average Total Expenses $2,154,401

[Bill]

Very interesting numbers. The ND stats (EADA report) are located at: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3230303238302679656 1723d323031312673656172636843726974657269613d33313 36434653666373237343638323034343631366236663734363 13236333233643437373236313665363432303636366637323 66237333236373236343734336433313266333332663332333 03331333332303331336133353331336133353338323035303 464267264743d312f332f3230313320313a35313a353820504 d

(long url, I know)

The hockey is NOT broken down by itself, as it is not required to. They do mention the insane ticket sale revenue of over $3 million!!! I do have a question, though - even though they rent the arena for $1, who actually pays for its upkeep? Someone has to be footing the bill....just curious.

[darell1976]

Very interesting numbers. The ND stats (EADA report) are located at: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3230303238302679656 1723d323031312673656172636843726974657269613d33313 36434653666373237343638323034343631366236663734363 13236333233643437373236313665363432303636366637323 66237333236373236343734336433313266333332663332333 03331333332303331336133353331336133353338323035303 464267264743d312f332f3230313320313a35313a353820504 d

(long url, I know)



The hockey is NOT broken down by itself, as it is not required to. They do mention the insane ticket sale revenue of over $3 million!!! I do have a question, though - even though they rent the arena for $1, who actually pays for its upkeep? Someone has to be footing the bill....just curious.

The Engelstad Trust owns the building so they must get a piece of the revenue pie from either ticket sales or merchandise, but I can't say for sure.