2013 Patriot League Predictions

[DFW HOYA]

Ten possible stories for the PL in 2013:

1. Recruiting Classes (February): Six schools announce their signings, inevitably calling it their "best ever".

2. More Expansion (April): LFN will break news of one or two more non-football additions in the spring.

3. 150 for 150 (May): Fans discuss in great detail a plan to charge $150 a ticket for the 150th Lehigh-Lafayette game in 2014.

4. Media Day (August): Colgate and Lehigh will (again) be the top two teams in the pre-season poll.

5. Media Day, Part 2 (August): A reporter will ask Georgetown's Kevin Kelly if they will offer scholarships. "We talk about it, but you never know," he responds, and that's the extent of the press coverage on the matter.

6. Upset Alert (September): Colgate's Gavin McCarney gets a mention on ESPN after the Red Raiders take a 21-14 lead at the half on Air Force, but AFA carries the second half, 28-24.

7. Rivalry No More (September) After a 51-0 runaway over Columbia, the New York media suggests the Columbia-Fordham series be cancelled as Fordham is already a 60 scholarship team.

8. Slow Start (October): Lafayette fans are complaining after the Leopards begin the season 1-4 following losses to W&M, Penn, Princeton, and Harvard.

9. Game of the Year (November): Lehigh at Colgate. Each will receive a berth to the expanded NCAA playoffs, but Colgate prevails for the title.

10. Player of the Year (November): Gavin McCarney.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross reverses its 2012 record and wins the PL. All is right with the world again.

[citdog]

#9 xlolx

[superman7515]

Clearly one loss in the PL is too many.

[RichH2]

I see you broke out your scatter gun. No doubt wr'llbeat all of these to death Feb thru Aug. Gate probably favorite, altho if eligible I would pick Fordham. The rest can wait til summer. At that time I will, of course, mutter not again repeatedly.

[CFBfan]

I see you broke out your scatter gun. No doubt wr'llbeat all of these to death Feb thru Aug. Gate probably favorite, altho if eligible I would pick Fordham. The rest can wait til summer. At that time I will, of course, mutter not again repeatedly.

with 60 full scholarship players in their 2nd season in mooreheads system fordham SHOULD make a lot of noise

[Lehigh Football Nation]

with 60 full scholarship players in their 2nd season in mooreheads system fordham SHOULD make a lot of noise

We've been predicting a "changed nature" of Fordham's football program now since they announced they were charging ahead on scholarships whether the rest of the PL came along or not.

1) In all three "scholarship years", Fordham wouldn't have won the PL, and in one of the years they would have been dead last.
2) While Fordham has beat Columbia three straight,16-9, 21-14, and 20-13 are hardly scores that indicate that their rivalry has become uncompetitive.
3) Fordham went 6-5 with 5 D-I wins and didn't beat any Division I team on their schedule by double digits.

[colorless raider]

I like the Gate predictions. Hope you are right.

[Southsider]

Ten possible stories for the PL in 2013:

1. Recruiting Classes (February): Six schools announce their signings, inevitably calling it their "best ever".

2. More Expansion (April): LFN will break news of one or two more non-football additions in the spring.

3. 150 for 150 (May): Fans discuss in great detail a plan to charge $150 a ticket for the 150th Lehigh-Lafayette game in 2014.

4. Media Day (August): Colgate and Lehigh will (again) be the top two teams in the pre-season poll.

5. Media Day, Part 2 (August): A reporter will ask Georgetown's Kevin Kelly if they will offer scholarships. "We talk about it, but you never know," he responds, and that's the extent of the press coverage on the matter.

6. Upset Alert (September): Colgate's Gavin McCarney gets a mention on ESPN after the Red Raiders take a 21-14 lead at the half on Air Force, but AFA carries the second half, 28-24.

7. Rivalry No More (September) After a 51-0 runaway over Columbia, the New York media suggests the Columbia-Fordham series be cancelled as Fordham is already a 60 scholarship team.

8. Slow Start (October): Lafayette fans are complaining after the Leopards begin the season 1-4 following losses to W&M, Penn, Princeton, and Harvard.

9. Game of the Year (November): Lehigh at Colgate. Each will receive a berth to the expanded NCAA playoffs, but Colgate prevails for the title.

10. Player of the Year (November): Gavin McCarney.

So, what is the point here? In my view it just give others outside the PL more ammo to dis the league. I think it is time to sit back, let the schollie process take hold, and work to raise the credibility of the league. Of course, this will take a few years. Until then, let the results speak for themselves.

[CFBfan]

We've been predicting a "changed nature" of Fordham's football program now since they announced they were charging ahead on scholarships whether the rest of the PL came along or not.

1) In all three "scholarship years", Fordham wouldn't have won the PL, and in one of the years they would have been dead last.
2) While Fordham has beat Columbia three straight,16-9, 21-14, and 20-13 are hardly scores that indicate that their rivalry has become uncompetitive.
3) Fordham went 6-5 with 5 D-I wins and didn't beat any Division I team on their schedule by double digits.

Please re-read and note the 2nd season in mooreheads sytems part!

[Engineer86]

#9 xlolx

What is really funny is that you should be hitting the crying face, anytime the issue of playoffs comes up. We get it, the fact that your conference is good, says nothing about your lousy team.

[CFBfan]

What is really funny is that you should be hitting the crying face, anytime the issue of playoffs comes up. We get it, the fact that your conference is good, says nothing about your lousy team.

Engineer I would NOT let the likes of citdog bother me! i have 2 sons that both had many offers that included 1A schools, CAA and SoCon but narrowed both of them down to either Ivy or "top 3" in the PL Academicaly for their choices because let's ALL be honest very very few are going to play on sundays and i would bet my house that not one avid PL basher ever got even a wiff of the big time and would likely (that's likely not certainly) have been better off for life with an elite education (i am guessing most couldn't qualify for either league) now that will get them going!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Please re-read and note the 2nd season in mooreheads sytems part!

I did, it just sounds a lot like the "just wait until scholarships kick in! Oh, boy!" arguments I've been hearing from Fordham since 2008. It could be that Masella didn't have a clue on how to approach the scholarship world and Moorhead has all the answers, but I'm skeptical.

The same Tom Masella who, incidentally, went back to Wagner and helped administer a butt-whoopin' on Colgate and put a massive scare into Eastern Washington.

[CFBfan]

I did, it just sounds a lot like the "just wait until scholarships kick in! Oh, boy!" arguments I've been hearing from Fordham since 2008. It could be that Masella didn't have a clue on how to approach the scholarship world and Moorhead has all the answers, but I'm skeptical.

The same Tom Masella who, incidentally, went back to Wagner and helped administer a butt-whoopin' on Colgate and put a massive scare into Eastern Washington.

OK, understood! certainly makes for great post/pre season converstion

[heath]

Lehigh- find a QB and patsy was correct about the senior class
Holy Cross-lost too many close games last year and are better for it
Colgate-teams will film study and shut McCarney down
Fordham-good talent but don't believe since not eligible for league title(do they know about an at large bid yet?)
Lafayette-young last season,but so many unknowns with players and coaches, same ol song
Bucknell-QB and coach step up and come out of cellar.
Georgetown-sorry DFW,thought their best chances were missed

Everyone have an injury free spring and good luck.Would be nice to see 2 PL teams in playoffs next season

[citdog]

What is really funny is that you should be hitting the crying face, anytime the issue of playoffs comes up. We get it, the fact that your conference is good, says nothing about your lousy team.

we suck so bad that your coach STEPPED UP to come here.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4YLUVDPFbQ

[superman7515]

Lafayette wins the PL this coming season.

[van]

Lafayette wins the PL this coming season.

Now there is a bold prediction! Supe must know about an upcoming coaching change.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

After getting to see Lehigh in person against Lafayette I came away impressed with the level of talent on the roster. The offense will be very good again next year assuming a viable QB steps in. Kurfis, Soto, Parrish, Sherman, Coyle etc. should, once again, form the best set of skill guys in the league.

The key will be putting together a DL.

The playoff snub should eliminate the "complacency" aspect after three straight 10 win seasons. I have a feeling the AD down to the water guy are ready to prove a point next year.

[Engineer86]

we suck so bad that your coach STEPPED UP to come here.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4YLUVDPFbQ

He was looking for a real challenge after making the wrong choice and going to Detroit. Since one failure did not work out, he looked for a bigger one. I think he found it. xlolxxlolx

Actually once fired from Detroit, I guess he grabbed then first opening he could find. Since he is the best a loser program can hope for, his job is safe for a while

[carney2]

Lafayette wins the PL this coming season.

It will be wide open this year, with no clear favorite. Anyone except Georgetown (Heath is correct. The Hoyas missed their golden opportunities in 2011 and 2012.) and probably Bucknell could win it, so why not?! Looking at the pros and cons team by team:

BUCKNELL: Pro: Solid run D in 2012. Con: Too many holes to fill to expect immediate results.
COLGATE: Pro: McCarney. Con: Lost McCord and OL; D always a question mark.
FORDHAM: Pro: Oh so close to a spectacular 2012; on-field discipline issues proved costly. Con: See Pro.
GEORGETOWN: Pro: May have learned how to win. Con: Not enough horses to compete in an improving Patriot League.
HOLY CROSS: Pro: Lost some close games; should be improved. Con: Need some talent upgrades.
LAFAYETTE: Pro: Young team in 2012; OL will finally be a force. Con: The Frankosaurus.
LEHIGH: Pro: Still have some talent. Con: "Game changers" have all graduated.

My choice is Fordham, but, of course, they don't count. Does that mean that everyone is fighting for number 2? Oh yeah, if Fordham gets an at-large bid to the playoffs, does that make the Patriot League a 2 bid league?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

FORDHAM: Pro: Oh so close to a spectacular 2012; on-field discipline issues proved costly. Con: See Pro.

My choice is Fordham, but, of course, they don't count. Does that mean that everyone is fighting for number 2? Oh yeah, if Fordham gets an at-large bid to the playoffs, does that make the Patriot League a 2 bid league?

Ah yes, carney, getting caught up in the afterglow of scholarships, looking at a 6-5 Fordham team and seeing nothing but sunshine and daisies. Fordham, who lost to Bucknell, beat "mighty" Columbia 20-13, and couldn't stay within two touchdowns of Villanova or Cincinnati.

If this were "non-scholarship" Lehigh instead of "scholarship" Fordham, we wouldn't be talking about how they were going to dominate the league next year, we'd be talking about how disappointing it was that they went 6-5 and lost to Bucknell.

[CFBfan]

Wow LFN, you are all over FU.....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't get me wrong. Fordham is a good team, I saw them last year and they have some talent. But they're not three levels above Lehigh and Colgate. Scholarships have not made them the equivalent of Villanova yet.

[CFBfan]

Don't get me wrong. Fordham is a good team, I saw them last year and they have some talent. But they're not three levels above Lehigh and Colgate. Scholarships have not made them the equivalent of Villanova yet.

I cetainly agree with that. I also think that the 2nd season of a new staff and system (assuming they are good and I think Moorehead is) will show the greatest uptick on the field.......time will tell. I hope NOT!!!!!

[DFW HOYA]

It will be wide open this year, with no clear favorite. Anyone except Georgetown (Heath is correct. The Hoyas missed their golden opportunities in 2011 and 2012.)

What, or more precisely where, were these "golden opportunities"?

Let's go back to 2011. The Hoyas were remarkably similar to the team of 2010, enjoying the benefits of a new offensive coordinator but better suited to late game decisions. Three consecutive weekends separated 2010 from 2011:

--Colgate: Oct. 2: Nate Eachus puts up 244 yards against Georgetown in 2010. In 2011, coming off a three game break for a concussion, he rushes for 38 yards and Georgetown gets its first (and, for the forseeable future, only) win against the Red Raiders.

--Holy Cross, Oct. 29: Holy Cross fumbles four times in the snow and Georgetown recovers all of them to win, 19-6.

--Fordham, Nov. 5: Daryl Whiting puts up 250 yards against Georgetown in 2010. In 2011, he rushes for 18 yards and Georgetown gets its (for the forseeable future, only) win against the Rams.

So, how about those same three games in 2012?

--Fordham, Oct. 6: Offensive coordinator Vinny Marino, channeling 2009-era OC Jim Miceli, has a first and goal at the two yard line, down seven, with 2:00 to go. Four rushes, minus-two yards, lose for the 12th straight time at Rose Hill.

--Colgate, Oct. 20: The Red Raiders gain 707 yards and win by three touchdowns.

--Holy Cross, Nov. 17: Georgetown punts 11 straight times and are shut out, 17-0.

2011 had opportunities but 2012 clearly did not. Georgetown lost four different starting quarterbacks to injuries and even went to #5 for parts of the final game. It won the games it should have and mostly lost the games it was expected to. Were it not for the game winner at Princeton, it would have finished 2012 with the same mediocre record as 2010, 4-7. And without scholarships, Georgetown can't count on a concussion or a blizzard to shake up the gameplan of a more well financed opponent.

Unsaid, of course, is that Georgetown is now de facto ineligible for the Patriot League championship (as opposed to Fordham's de jure status). If these are the last two "golden opportunities" awaiting the Hoyas in a scenario of getting beat up by 30 or 40 points every week for the next ten years, that's not going to work, either.

[carney2]

Ah yes, carney, getting caught up in the afterglow of scholarships, looking at a 6-5 Fordham team and seeing nothing but sunshine and daisies. Fordham, who lost to Bucknell, beat "mighty" Columbia 20-13, and couldn't stay within two touchdowns of Villanova or Cincinnati.

If this were "non-scholarship" Lehigh instead of "scholarship" Fordham, we wouldn't be talking about how they were going to dominate the league next year, we'd be talking about how disappointing it was that they went 6-5 and lost to Bucknell.

LFN = The Grinch.

As for Fordham, I agree that the Bucknell loss was the single biggest black mark on their resume. As for the other losses, consider:

Villanova 28, FORDHAM 13 - Early season and hung tough with a team that made the playoffs.
Lehigh 34, FORDHAM 31 - Perhaps some of those in-game discipline problems I mentioned were the difference?
Cincinnati 49, FORDHAM 17 - You expected better? Really?!!
Colgate 41, FORDHAM 39 - See Lehigh comments above.

With only a little luck, and fewer stupid penalties, this could have easily been 9-2.

[carney2]

What, or more precisely where, were these "golden opportunities"?

Specifically, for a brief two-year period the Hoyas were competitive, or nearly competitive. It hadn't happened before and is not likely to happen again in the foreseeable future.

[CFBfan]

I fully agree with Carney, 2012 started out with PL title hopes DFW but they went up in smoke when 1) OC Marino was not nearly as competent as his OC Patenaue was 2) starting QB out for season early in 1st game 3) a not so good back up goes out during game three for the majority of the season with an ankle sprain (toughness an issue??)
4) a trio of freshman qb's are not up to the task. If you don't think that going into the season GU had hi hopes and expectaions and a realistic opportunity you weren't paying attention. Sadly that opportunity was lost early.

[DFW HOYA]

Isaiah Kempf's season (if not career) was ended on the fifth play of the first game. Georgetown was left with:

A junior who had never started a game (Aiken, injured in week 3)
A sophomore who had never played in a game (Skon, injured in week 6)
A freshman who had never played in college (Nolan, injured in week 10)
A freshman who had never played in college (MacPherson)

Any opportunity, golden or not, was out the door right there.

[superman7515]

Cincinnati 49, FORDHAM 17 - You expected better? Really?!!

Cincinnati 23, Delaware State 7 - Yes, I would have expected better for another FCS team offering scholarships.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I respectfully disagree. People forget how close the Hoyas were to beating Lehigh last season. Had Georgetown gone for the jugular, they would have had a real shot to win that game and it would have changed their entire season. They had Lehigh on the ropes.

Having said that, losing McCabe and Jeremy Moore is going to be devastating to that defense.

[CFBfan]

Isaiah Kempf's season (if not career) was ended on the fifth play of the first game. Georgetown was left with:

A junior who had never started a game (Aiken, injured in week 3)
A sophomore who had never played in a game (Skon, injured in week 6)
A freshman who had never played in college (Nolan, injured in week 10)
A freshman who had never played in college (MacPherson)

Any opportunity, golden or not, was out the door right there.

throw in a less than comptent OC and we've said the same thing

[CFBfan]

I respectfully disagree. People forget how close the Hoyas were to beating Lehigh last season. Had Georgetown gone for the jugular, they would have had a real shot to win that game and it would have changed their entire season. They had Lehigh on the ropes.

Having said that, losing McCabe and Jeremy Moore is going to be devastating to that defense.

Yes, a bad OC hurt them in a lot games Lehigh being a big one! They lose both McCabe and Moore plus another 3 yr starter at LB: the 2 Sr LB's provided a lot of leadership that won't be replaced and they graduate skill guys on O

[carney2]

Injuries are part of the game and admittedly they impacted Georgetown quite heavily this season. That however, does not negate the fact that going into the season the Hoyas were a player in the Patriot League. And THAT is my point - not what may have been lost in the training room or on the x-ray table. My primary point - one more time for those of you with a Lehigh education who are slow to grasp the written word - is that this two-year window of opportunity has closed. Don't expect to see it open again anytime soon.

[CFBfan]

Injuries are part of the game and admittedly they impacted Georgetown quite heavily this season. That however, does not negate the fact that going into the season the Hoyas were a player in the Patriot League. And THAT is my point - not what may have been lost in the training room or on the x-ray table. My primary point - one more time for those of you with a Lehigh education who are slow to grasp the written word - is that this two-year window of opportunity has closed. Don't expect to see it open again anytime soon.

100% agree Carney, understtod that in your 1st comment and agree now! i was just responding to dfw

[ngineer]

we suck so bad that your coach STEPPED UP to come here.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4YLUVDPFbQ

Actually, he did STEP UP to The Citadel after leaving the Detroit Lions!

[DFW HOYA]

My primary point - one more time for those of you with a Lehigh education who are slow to grasp the written word - is that this two-year window of opportunity has closed. Don't expect to see it open again anytime soon.

So how does Coach Carney sell that to upcoming recruits? Obviously, you can't offer a scholarship, and forget a stadium or game day locker rooms.

[ngineer]

Injuries are part of the game and admittedly they impacted Georgetown quite heavily this season. That however, does not negate the fact that going into the season the Hoyas were a player in the Patriot League. And THAT is my point - not what may have been lost in the training room or on the x-ray table. My primary point - one more time for those of you with a Lehigh education who are slow to grasp the written word - is that this two-year window of opportunity has closed. Don't expect to see it open again anytime soon.

Injuries are part of eveyone's season. Some get bit more than others, but that is when we find out how good the "program" is in terms of developing depth with kids who can step in and the team not suffer a significant drop off in ability. Hoyas have had some very good players over the past two years, now the question will be can they keep the mojo...I tend to agree with Carney. The window has closed.

[ngineer]

It will be wide open this year, with no clear favorite. Anyone except Georgetown (Heath is correct. The Hoyas missed their golden opportunities in 2011 and 2012.) and probably Bucknell could win it, so why not?! Looking at the pros and cons team by team:

BUCKNELL: Pro: Solid run D in 2012. Con: Too many holes to fill to expect immediate results.
COLGATE: Pro: McCarney. Con: Lost McCord and OL; D always a question mark.
FORDHAM: Pro: Oh so close to a spectacular 2012; on-field discipline issues proved costly. Con: See Pro.
GEORGETOWN: Pro: May have learned how to win. Con: Not enough horses to compete in an improving Patriot League.
HOLY CROSS: Pro: Lost some close games; should be improved. Con: Need some talent upgrades.
LAFAYETTE: Pro: Young team in 2012; OL will finally be a force. Con: The Frankosaurus.
LEHIGH: Pro: Still have some talent. Con: "Game changers" have all graduated.

My choice is Fordham, but, of course, they don't count. Does that mean that everyone is fighting for number 2? Oh yeah, if Fordham gets an at-large bid to the playoffs, does that make the Patriot League a 2 bid league?

Not so. Kurfis returns and Parris showed he will be able to make things happen. If you had to pick a 'con' for Lehigh it is another Question Mark at QB, which always creates concern.
The other 'con' for the Leotards is their schedule. I see a rough start and if they dig themselves a hole, could have a snowball effect on the balance of the season if Frank doesn't keep 'em together.

[carney2]

So how does Coach Carney sell that to upcoming recruits? Obviously, you can't offer a scholarship, and forget a stadium or game day locker rooms.

You sell the sizzle because you don't have a steak. You talk up the last two years and the woulda, coulda, shouldas, as well as how far you've come. You stay away from anything that even hints that your peers have boarded a much larger and faster ship for the next leg of the voyage. In your heart of hearts however, you recognize that it will be an uphill fight. You recognize that you had that open window and it's probably closed. And you recognize that the fact that you don't have scholarships or a stadium or game day locker rooms is not the other guy's fault.

[carney2]

The other 'con' for the Leotards is their schedule. I see a rough start

Absolutely. With W&M, Penn, Princeton and Harvard all probable losses by the middle of October it looks difficult. One additional opponent needs to be added during that stretch to replace Yale who was originally scheduled for October 28th. That opponent could determine if the Pards open 2-4 or 1-5. Of course, who on this board picked them to beat W&M this past September, and even Carnak could not have foreseen 6 in a row over Penn. Long odds on all of those opponents, but the only certainty is Princeton.

[carney2]

Not so. Kurfis returns and Parris showed he will be able to make things happen.

With me sitting on the outside looking in and you peering through your dung covered glasses, we shall agree to disagree. Lum and Spadola were game changers. The guys you mention are "merely" good Patriot League players. Every team has a few of those.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With me sitting on the outside looking in and you peering through your dung covered glasses, we shall agree to disagree. Lum and Spadola were game changers. The guys you mention are "merely" good Patriot League players. Every team has a few of those.

Add Keith Sherman to that "game changer" category. I get the feeling if he stays healthy he could be that guy.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Add Keith Sherman to that "game changer" category. I get the feeling if he stays healthy he could be that guy.

He's been a significant contributor since his soph year.

Sherman and Kurfis are definitely game changers. Hell, Kurfis helped "change" the tone of the Lafayette game with his 75 yard TD catch.

The biggest loss on offense is Spadola without a doubt. Haggins and Barkett battled injuries most of the year and never really reached their potential.

[heath]

With me sitting on the outside looking in and you peering through your dung covered glasses, we shall agree to disagree. Lum and Spadola were game changers. The guys you mention are "merely" good Patriot League players. Every team has a few of those.

Correct,every team has a few,Lum did not play last year and Spadola missed a few games. without those 2 guys Lehigh went undefeated last season.If the Turds as you Easton misfits like to call them,find a QB,they will be fine. "Next Man Up" takes place,and on both sides of the ball,game changers will appear .Lum,Groome,Spadola,Barket are replaced with young guns waiting their turn. It happens everywhere,even at Lafayette. "Merely" good players that play as a team are much better than great players playing as individuals.

[heath]

With me sitting on the outside looking in and you peering through your dung covered glasses, we shall agree to disagree. Lum and Spadola were game changers. The guys you mention are "merely" good Patriot League players. Every team has a few of those.

Correct,every team has a few,Lum did not play last year and Spadola missed a few games. without those 2 guys Lehigh went undefeated last season.If the Turds as you Easton misfits like to call them,find a QB,they will be fine. "Next Man Up" takes place,and on both sides of the ball,game changers will appear .Lum,Groome,Spadola,Barket are replaced with young guns waiting their turn. It happens everywhere,even at Lafayette. "Merely" good players that play as a team are much better than great players playing as individuals.

[citdog]

Add Keith Sherman .


LFN if you EVER write a headline that sounds anything like "Sherman Lit The Fire To Win" or any COMBINATION of Sherman, fire, burn, marches, etc I will totally murder you.


Love,


Cit

[ngineer]

LFN if you EVER write a headline that sounds anything like "Sherman Lit The Fire To Win" or any COMBINATION of Sherman, fire, burn, marches, etc I will totally murder you.


Love,


Cit

Get Kevin to schedule us to come down to Charleston and we'll renact "Sherman's March" over the 'checkerboard' (;-). Seriously, I'd love to have a road game with you guys.

[hawkineer]

LFN if you EVER write a headline that sounds anything like "Sherman Lit The Fire To Win" or any COMBINATION of Sherman, fire, burn, marches, etc I will totally murder you.


Love,


Cit
So LFN, Sherman burns Atlanta - BAD! xnonox

http://poetsagainstthewar.org/sites/default/files/images/shermanatlanta.gif

Sherman torches Lafayette - GOOD!xthumbsupx

http://media.lehighvalleylive.com/express-times/photo/2012/11/11881094-standard.jpg

[RichH2]

I do wonder why we do not have a H&H with Citadel. Both coaches in place for a while. Kevin has built a good program down there and Andy doing same here. To me it s/b a no brainer. Clearly I'm wronf. Why?

[citdog]

I do wonder why we do not have a H&H with Citadel. Both coaches in place for a while. Kevin has built a good program down there and Andy doing same here. To me it s/b a no brainer. Clearly I'm wronf. Why?

OOC games are tough. Charleston Southern is on the schedule as well as VMI every year again now. Add in the FBS game and your schedule is full.

also you don't want the spike in pregnancies in your community.

[PAllen]

Ten possible stories for the PL in 2013:

3. 150 for 150 (May): Fans discuss in great detail a plan to charge $150 a ticket for the 150th Lehigh-Lafayette game in 2014.


God, I hope not. That would definitely keep me and the family away. It would also all but guarantee a half empty (or worse) stadium.

[PAllen]

I do wonder why we do not have a H&H with Citadel. Both coaches in place for a while. Kevin has built a good program down there and Andy doing same here. To me it s/b a no brainer. Clearly I'm wronf. Why?

It was a huge money loser for both teams when Cit and UD had a H&H a few years back. My guess is that LU would be seen as more of the same if not worse.

[Go...gate]

I do wonder why we do not have a H&H with Citadel. Both coaches in place for a while. Kevin has built a good program down there and Andy doing same here. To me it s/b a no brainer. Clearly I'm wronf. Why?

I'd like to see Colgate do it, too. We last played The Citadel in 1973 (away) and 1975 (home). It would be a great intersectional game.

[Go...gate]

Specifically, for a brief two-year period the Hoyas were competitive, or nearly competitive. It hadn't happened before and is not likely to happen again in the foreseeable future.

Not sure I agree with this, at least for the next five years or so. You can give scholarships, but the players you get have to be able to play and stay in school. Recruiting can be tricky. Moreover, admissions departments may be less apt to set aside the larger of "slots" reserved for football players as existed in the need-based days.

[CFBfan]

Not sure I agree with this, at least for the next five years or so. You can give scholarships, but the players you get have to be able to play and stay in school. Recruiting can be tricky. Moreover, admissions departments may be less apt to set aside the larger of "slots" reserved for football players as existed in the need-based days.
The AI was not lowered for scholarships so the staying in school part should be no different than it has been It will likely take a couple years 2 - 3 but I don't think 5?

[RichH2]

I doubt schollies will lift us all to level of CAA consistently. The gap for GU in talent will be daunting at times but not insurmountable. If GU raises level of need aid to 50-55 equivalencies, they will remain competitive. If not, GU will have little to hope for other than occasional upsets.
Citdog,
Imagine our coeds are savy enuf to withstand the charms of your guys.

[Pard4Life]

How about Lafayette blows three games it clearly should have won... yes, that sounds about right. Maybe I'll skip this year since it's all too predictable.

[DFW HOYA]

You sell the sizzle because you don't have a steak. You talk up the last two years and the woulda, coulda, shouldas, as well as how far you've come. You stay away from anything that even hints that your peers have boarded a much larger and faster ship for the next leg of the voyage. In your heart of hearts however, you recognize that it will be an uphill fight.

And if Dan Weiss had signed on to the same non-scholarship commitment, you'd be calling for the pitchforks and torches concesssion along McCartney Street at College Avenue.

Former coach Bob Benson used to sell the Georgetown program to recruits on three planks: 1) education, 2) the ability to compete for the PL championship and playoffs, and 3) that the recruit would be playing in a new stadium by their senior year. Well, the third one didn't work out so well for Benson, and Kevin Kelly probably doesn't even bring it up, so then he's got two to work with. Now, #2 is out the door as well.

[CFBfan]

And if Dan Weiss had signed on to the same non-scholarship commitment, you'd be calling for the pitchforks and torches concesssion along McCartney Street at College Avenue.

Former coach Bob Benson used to sell the Georgetown program to recruits on three planks: 1) education, 2) the ability to compete for the PL championship and playoffs, and 3) that the recruit would be playing in a new stadium by their senior year. Well, the third one didn't work out so well for Benson, and Kevin Kelly probably doesn't even bring it up, so then he's got two to work with. Now, #2 is out the door as well.

and all this just tells you that GU is NOT serious about it's football program

[DFW HOYA]

and all this just tells you that GU is NOT serious about it's football program

No, it just means there is less to sell when the physical infrastructure and/or winning tradition isn't there as it may be at other places. You can sell location, but Washington DC may mean very little to a recruit.

[CFBfan]

No, it just means there is less to sell when the physical infrastructure and/or winning tradition isn't there as it may be at other places. You can sell location, but Washington DC may mean very little to a recruit.

DFW, I respectfuly disagree. IMO when your "stadium" called the multi sport field is a pathetic eye sore for many years NO, with ZERO improvement or progress and you are the only school in league that refuses to offer scholarships you really don't care as an institutuon. If you disagree we will just agree to disagree.
Do the coaches care? sure they do, it's their living! do the kids....most do but the universitie....no way

[Lehigh'98]

Lehigh,I believe, will be getting a FR QB who may be able to play immediately. Would be nice to have another great one back there.

[heath]

How about Lafayette blows three games it clearly should have won... yes, that sounds about right. Maybe I'll skip this year since it's all too predictable.

No,don't skip this year,but please do not start predicting or telling fans what a great season it will be.Stay calm and quiet and just try to get above 500. LC fans make the same mistake every year and worry about what is happening 15 miles to the west.The only predictable thing is,all the b*ll$h!t Lafayette fans throw toward Lehigh. Get over your complex and move forward. Get back to the mid 2000's and do the PL proud.

[carney2]

Get back to the mid 2000's and do the PL proud.

Ain't happening until at least 2016. That's the year after Tavani's current contract expires.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, I respectfuly disagree. IMO when your "stadium" called the multi sport field is a pathetic eye sore for many years NO, with ZERO improvement or progress and you are the only school in league that refuses to offer scholarships you really don't care as an institutuon. If you disagree we will just agree to disagree.
Do the coaches care? sure they do, it's their living! do the kids....most do but the universitie....no way

Facilities are an institutional issue without an easy answer. At least football has a place to play:

Baseball plays in a city park.
Softball plays in a different city park.
Track and field, 2011 women's national champions, have no track of its own and do not hold home meets.
Field hockey must play at the Univ. of Maryland because it no longer has a field of its own.
Basketball, yes, that basketball, has been trying for 15 years to get a practice facility, and still hasn't started construction.

Why? It's money, it's zoning, it's a lack of land, it's donors, it's a lot of things. It is an uphill climb at a landlocked 100 acre university that is overcrowded as it is. But people do care--it's talked about a lot. But there are no easy answers.

Basketball revenue cannot cover the cost of 60 football scholarships and facilities can't raise the difference either. The school has a city-enforced enrollment cap so it's not like it can add some "paid" students (at $60K each) to cover the difference. And even with all these obstacles, Georgetown has been able to compete over the past two years because even though it trailed by dozens of equivalencies, it could still recruit head to head among need based candidates. Going forward, PL scholarships trump need based aid which is why no other PL schools are staying with need based aid.

How would you think Georgetown would fare if it played w/o scholarships in the 63-scholarship CAA? If that's the competitive scenario which awaits them in a 60-scholarship PL, that's going to be a problem.

[ngineer]

OOC games are tough. Charleston Southern is on the schedule as well as VMI every year again now. Add in the FBS game and your schedule is full.

also you don't want the spike in pregnancies in your community.

yes, if you're locked into Chuck South every year, and I understand VMI, and I know you guys always have a "money" game with an FBS school, that makes it tough. Hopefully, Chuck backs out some year and we can visit.

[ngineer]

Lehigh,I believe, will be getting a FR QB who may be able to play immediately. Would be nice to have another great one back there.

Are you referring to Shafinsky our to Whitehall, or someone else coming in? I think Shafinsky is a great athlete, but to have him surpassing Bialkowski out of the box is unlikely. Bialkowski has a nice accurate arm.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Any potential redshirt guys for Lehigh? Two years ago they really benefited by getting Flizack and at least one more (??) back for another season. Not so much this past fall...

How about Chagani? There had to be a reason he wasn't a 4 year starter...lol

[carney2]

Are you referring to Shafinsky our to Whitehall, or someone else coming in? I think Shafinsky is a great athlete, but to have him surpassing Bialkowski out of the box is unlikely. Bialkowski has a nice accurate arm.

Shafnisky has some potential, but the only way he starts as a freshman is if the team turns into a M*A*S*H unit. Personally - and file this under what the h@!! do I know?! - I think he will be an OK Patriot League player, but those expecting another Lum or Stambaugh ("another great one" was the way it was phrased) just because he will receive a scholarship are probably in dreamland.

[Lehigh'98]

Are you referring to Shafinsky our to Whitehall, or someone else coming in? I think Shafinsky is a great athlete, but to have him surpassing Bialkowski out of the box is unlikely. Bialkowski has a nice accurate arm.

If Shafinsky can handle it mentally, he will be the starter the majority of the season.

[RichH2]

Having watched him, true athletically he can step right in. Reminds me of a bigger Borda. Quite a jump from HS to D-I, even the PL. BB ,lest we forget, is an A-S QB from Ariz. Nice arm and athletic. Big upside is he has been in system for 2 yrs now. Little chance to play with our cardiac season last year.

[Sader87]

I predict I'll get sick of reading posts about Lehigh (and by extension, Lafayette) here by about March.....:)

I kid because I love...Happy New Year gentlemen.

[carney2]

Who will be Lehigh's 3rd team right offensive tackle? It is just about the only thing Squawk that hasn't been discussed in excruciating detail by Featherhead posters and it's been keeping me awake at night.

[RichH2]

I know Carney. It really is a conundrum worthy methinks of its own thread. But a more important issue is the 2nd string LS.
Lets all hope recruiting picks up next week so we can put off these issues til late July.

[ngineer]

Having watched him, true athletically he can step right in. Reminds me of a bigger Borda. Quite a jump from HS to D-I, even the PL. BB ,lest we forget, is an A-S QB from Ariz. Nice arm and athletic. Big upside is he has been in system for 2 yrs now. Little chance to play with our cardiac season last year.

Big reason it will be tough for Shafinsky to step right in in August. Lehigh's offense is a fairly sophisticated process. I see him playing only if Bialkowski, the kid from California and McHale flame out.

[van]

Having watched him, true athletically he can step right in. Reminds me of a bigger Borda. Quite a jump from HS to D-I, even the PL. BB ,lest we forget, is an A-S QB from Ariz. Nice arm and athletic. Big upside is he has been in system for 2 yrs now. Little chance to play with our cardiac season last year.

Big reason it will be tough for Shafinsky to step right in in August. Lehigh's offense is a fairly sophisticated process. I see him playing only if Bialkowski, the kid from California and McHale flame out.

Have to agree with engineer on this one, remember even Lum took his lumps at first as he was getting experience, for a frosh to step in and play, he would have to be truly exceptional or the guys in front of him all fall down.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Having watched him, true athletically he can step right in. Reminds me of a bigger Borda. Quite a jump from HS to D-I, even the PL. BB ,lest we forget, is an A-S QB from Ariz. Nice arm and athletic. Big upside is he has been in system for 2 yrs now. Little chance to play with our cardiac season last year.

Big reason it will be tough for Shafinsky to step right in in August. Lehigh's offense is a fairly sophisticated process. I see him playing only if Bialkowski, the kid from California and McHale flame out.

Poutier. FWIW, my pick for the opening-day QB.

[carney2]

Poutier. FWIW, my pick for the opening-day QB.

In any event it probably won't be Shafnisky. My money says that Coen recruits someone within the next two years who turns him into Clipboard Guy.

[colorless raider]

In any event it probably won't be Shafnisky. My money says that Coen recruits someone within the next two years who turns him into Clipboard Guy.

Glad the 'Gate does not have to worry about who our qb is next year. Eat your heart out.:D

[RichH2]

Trust me Raider, I am. On top of that, he is the best in PL. Ah well, you guys should enjoy it. Happy New Year.

[Lehigh'98]

Should be a great game in upstate NY this coming year!! Lehigh and Colgate both have had incredibly consistent 15 year stretches, each with only a few down years in there. It's now a very fun, intense rivalry.

[ngineer]

In any event it probably won't be Shafnisky. My money says that Coen recruits someone within the next two years who turns him into Clipboard Guy.

Yes and No. I wouldn't be surprised if Shafinsky does not become the starting QB, however, he will not be 'cllipboard guy' as he is too good an athlete not to play somewhere else--He could become a receiver, RB or DB as well. Very versatile. Poutier, the kid from California I couldn't think of earlier is a very good runner as well, so after Bialkowski I see us having very mobile QB--similar in style to McCartney.

[RichH2]

Poutier very guick ,agile runner from his video and what I saw jv. Nice arm accurate short to medium passer. True both he and BB are simlar to Gate qb.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

In Lewisburg, Coach Susan will have a more experienced O-line, seniority at QB and a solid rush defense. The Bison have tenderized their OOC schedule, swapping Harvard and Delaware for VMI and Sacred Heart while getting HC, LU and the Hoya at home. I am feeling optimistic for at minimum of a winning season, highly competitive in every game in-conference, and finally a Bucknell upset of either Lehigh or Colgate.

[RichH2]

BU's issue in last decade not their skill players, usually very good, it is overall lack of size and depth. Susan did bring in a lot of big bidies ladt yr and as usual some nice skill people. BU's experience at qb says more about lack of quality depth. Wesley excellent athlete not a very good qb. Better OL may help there.

[CFBfan]

In Lewisburg, Coach Susan will have a more experienced O-line, seniority at QB and a solid rush defense. The Bison have tenderized their OOC schedule, swapping Harvard and Delaware for VMI and Sacred Heart while getting HC, LU and the Hoya at home. I am feeling optimistic for at minimum of a winning season, highly competitive in every game in-conference, and finally a Bucknell upset of either Lehigh or Colgate.

in conf BU will loose to Gate, LU, HC and LC

[DFW HOYA]

in conf BU will loose to Gate, LU, HC and LC

Too early to tell. Bucknell struggled to get three points against Georgetown this year so (and contrary to prevailing wisdom), not every PL team gets an automatic "W" against Georgetown going forward.

I also see Fordham as being much more of a challenge than it has been to Bucknell in recent years.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Lehigh's dominance over Bucknell, Fordham and Georgetown is pretty incredible and something that doesn't get enough mention imo. The reason they're in it every year is because they don't lose games to these teams...

Lehigh has won 15 straight against Bucknell. Last loss, @ Bucknell 21-17 in 1997
Lehigh has won 12 straight against Georgetown, having never lost to the Hoyas in PL play
Lehigh is 22-2 against Fordham in PL play. Last Rams win, @ Fordham 28-18 in 2007
Lehigh has now won 5 straight against Lafayette, 17-10 overall in the PL era.

Lehigh is 15-12 against HC and Colgate in PL play. But, only 8-8 against Colgate since the PL entered the playoffs in 1997.

[CFBfan]

Too early to tell. Bucknell struggled to get three points against Georgetown this year so (and contrary to prevailing wisdom), not every PL team gets an automatic "W" against Georgetown going forward.

I also see Fordham as being much more of a challenge than it has been to Bucknell in recent years.

Yes, good points.....likely BU also losses to FU also. It's a tough road game for GU but certainly not a gimme for BU either.
Losing both of their ILB's who were 3 year starters and 1 an all american plus a very good cb, i don't know what the GU defense will look like in 2013

[RichH2]

As I recall GU has pretty decent depth on D. Did lose arguably 2 best D players in PL but D still s/b solid. Hoyas certainly have experience at qb. Less injuries GU will again be solid.

[DFW HOYA]

Offensively, Georgetown loses two starters on the offensive line, although a starter from 2011 could come back as he was lost for the year with injury. At least four return to compete at QB, plus the starting RB's and the WR's, with the tight end position open.

Defensively, Georgetown should return its entire defensive line, one of three starters at LB and three of four in the secondary. Increasingly, it won't be depth but talent that becomes the issue.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The preseason poll should/will be interesting. I'd expect the top two to be Lehigh/Colgate or vice-versa. Colgate has the QB and LU in Hamilton, Lehigh has the skill guys and OL.

Lafayette has a good shot to be third, as does Fordham. Fordham lost a lot but has a good talent base. LC has experience but no real QB and suspect line play.

HC will be an interesting team given the how much they improved the last month. They lose quite a bit though. 6 wins seems possible.

Georgetown lost a lot of experience and hasn't proven the ability to reload. Granted, reload/GTown are usually mutually exclusive.

I still don't see Bucknell making any real charge yet. It's a tough sell given how little support the program receives which is a shame. CMS is a great place to spend a fall Saturday.

I'd go..
1. Colgate - by virtue of LU at home
2. Lehigh - the pieces are in place to make another run
3. Lafayette - experience, can still win OOC games
4. Fordham - talented but young
5. Holy Cross - Gilmore won't allow back-2-back losing seasons
6. Georgetown - lose several key players from last two years
7. Bucknell - still need depth and more true FCS difference makers

The league next year will be good, maybe the best it's been since the mid 00's. I'm confident there will be an at large team.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown lost a lot of experience and hasn't proven the ability to reload. Granted, reload/GTown are usually mutually exclusive.

Reloading has not been the problem. From Michael Ononibaku followed Alex Buzbee. From Nick Parrish followed Robert McCabe. From Andrew Schaetzke will follow Jordan Richardson, who should be in the discussion for all-PL honors soon. The defensive depth has been there for a decade or more, and it's usually in time of possession where the defense is worn down.

Georgetown does not recruit well on skill positions. It lacks impact RB's and WR's, and are often converting players to fill those positions. A few years ago, its starting RB was a converted LB. This year's TE was a converted QB. When it does recruit an impact player, they are often whisked away by a scholarship offer. Example: last season, the Hoyas recruited and signed WR Tres Barksdale from Cleveland. Two days later, Michigan State offers him a roster spot. Gone. And things could really get unseemly if a PL coach like Biddle or Moorhead essentially picks off the top of the GU recruit list just for grins.

So why doesn't Georgetown recruit better on skill, particularly on offense? Well, impact offensive players aren't always found with a 1400 SAT, and if they are, they likely to go to places with an offensive mindset. The prior offensive coordinators haven't always recruited offense very well, and players go where the relationships are with the OC and the line coaches. Of course, they also go where the winning is, and Kelly and his staff can only sell the "be part of something new here" so much.

And that's the third problem facing Georgetown going forward--who will they recruit against? Increasingly, the kid looking at Fordham and Lafayette won't be looking at Georgetown because he doesn't have to. The Hoyas either turn to kids in the mix at places like Columbia that don't get a second look, smart kids looking at NEC schools, or kids across the nation that just want to travel east but with very little of hands-on scouting by the coaches. Either way, it's not a consistent formula to compete with Colgate and Lehigh on Saturdays.

[carney2]

I'd go..
1. Colgate - but virtue of LU at home
2. Lehigh - the pieces are in place to make another run
3. Lafayette - experience, can still win OOC games
4. Fordham - talented but young
5. Holy Cross - Gilmore won't allow back-2-back losing seasons
6. Georgetown - lose several key players from last two years
7. Bucknell - still need depth and more true FCS difference makers

The league next year will be good, maybe the best it's been since the mid 00's. I'm confident there will be an at large team.

Why not. It's wide open. Another view:

1a. Fordham - Moorhead cuts down on the stupid penalties and other problems not related to talent. A full load of scholarship players asserts itself.

But, Fordham is still on the outside looking in, so...

1. Lafayette - Need to survive rough OOC, find a RB and beef up the defensive front 7.
1. Lehigh - OOC is tougher than 2012, but not daunting. Need to plug some graduation holes.
(The championship will be decided 11/23 at Badman Stadium.)
3. Colgate - McCarney by himself is not enough. Loss of McCord and OL too much to overcome.
4. Holy Cross - Will not see a repeat of 2011.
5. Bucknell - Susan is ordering up some beef. Could be enough to be competitive, as someone has already pointed out.
5. Georgetown - The window may have closed, but they are not a shambles.

The League, overall, should be better than in 2012, but "good" may be a bit premature. Not a 2 bid League unless Fordham does what I believe they can.

[RichH2]

Pretty good . I also think Rams are set for a big yr. Would not be surprised to see FU get an atlarge.

[DFW HOYA]

5. Georgetown - The window may have closed, but they are not a shambles.


Faint praise. You've got them going from 8-3 in 2011 to the cellar in 2013.

I think 2013 will look a lot like 2012 for all the teams, with Fordham as the wild card and Lafayette struggling early.

[Pard4Life]

Georgetown is headed to the cellar, no doubt. Bucknell's defense is enough to keep them in games, and some offense can lead them to the middle of the PL, maybe the top with some luck.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A full load of scholarship players asserts itself.

We've been waiting for Fordham to "assert itself" for, what, two years? Three? Four?

[RichH2]

Difference now is Fordham actually has a coaching staff. Massella a great recruiter and hellof a nice guy. A very good coordinator but a disaster as HC. Major failing not being able to hire a good staff.

[carney2]

Fordham is in a position where their window will be open for a few years until others with scholarships catch up. As for everyone, including Patriot League coaches, waiting years for the Rams to "assert themselves," the time is now. All it took was a coaching change. (Are you listening in Easton?!)

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham is in a position where their window will be open for a few years until others with scholarships catch up. As for everyone, including Patriot League coaches, waiting years for the Rams to "assert themselves," the time is now. All it took was a coaching change. (Are you listening in Easton?!)

I think of Tavani alongside Andy Reid--people are eventually going to miss him when he's gone. For all the Lafayette fans who think the next Tim Murphy is walking through the door at College Hill, it could also get the next Ken Bunn.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think of Tavani alongside Andy Reid--people are eventually going to miss him when he's gone. For all the Lafayette fans who think the next Tim Murphy is walking through the door at College Hill, it could also get the next Ken Bunn.

Let's hope! xlolx

[RichH2]

Dont know the reality w Tavani's situation, but he seems to have reached the Lembo tipping point in worse shape than Pete himself. No doubt severe funding cutback gutted program thru no fault of Tavani. I doubt even a winning season next yr will help unless it includes a win over Lehigh at the minimum. But would he be canned before #150?

[carney2]

Dont know the reality w Tavani's situation, but he seems to have reached the Lembo tipping point in worse shape than Pete himself. No doubt severe funding cutback gutted program thru no fault of Tavani. I doubt even a winning season next yr will help unless it includes a win over Lehigh at the minimum. But would he be canned before #150?

Tavani cannot and will not be "canned." Short of serial killings or child abuse, it just ain't gonna happen on College Hill.

As for the Tavani-Lembo comparison, I still say that Lembo's problem was simple - he wasn't Kevin Higgins. Of course, you mix in that wallpaper paste personality and... As for Tavani, his effectiveness as a football coach has deteriorated to the point that one must ask if he can ever recover. Consider:

On game day he is a consistent dim witted Frankosaurus. It's as if he has his leather helmet on sideways and cannot properly see out of the ear hole. On the plus side, he is on the verge of having a dominant offensive line. If the incoming freshman class includes a baby bull type running back, his 1920s style may achieve some results.

There are signs that he has lost the team. He has a long string of no-show games on his resume, including 3 of the last 5 vs. Lehigh. His "disciplinary problems" are accumulating into quite a large pile. There are also some hints that he has lost respect with the players.

If the current recruiting efforts reveal that he cannot recruit properly with scholarships and/or that his reputation is out there and hindering his efforts, it's going to be a long and dreary road into 2015 when his current contract expires.

In short, I don't think that Lembo and Tavani are comparable at all. Lembo was despised for no apparent valid reason. He continued to win and continued to perform at high levels. There is, of course, the question as to whether he left an empty pantry when he moved on. As for Tavani, it's performance and perceptions of control.

[carney2]

I think of Tavani alongside Andy Reid--people are eventually going to miss him when he's gone. For all the Lafayette fans who think the next Tim Murphy is walking through the door at College Hill, it could also get the next Ken Bunn.

Or, worse yet, Neil Putnam, a (football) boring incompetent who, like the Energizer bunny just kept going on and on. But, you make a valid point, DFW. The solution, or lack thereof, would lie in the hiring decision. At the moment the 3 most visible coaching positions at Lafayette (football, men's and women's basketball) are held by "lifers." These are people who are virtually guaranteed employment right up to the day their first pension check arrives. Frank Tavani (football) is 59 and signed through age 62. Fran O'Hanlon (men's basketball) is 64, and Diane Nolan (women's basketball) is in this same age group. All are in their final head coaching positions. The question needs to be asked if this is how AD, Bruce McCutcheon prefers it. If yes, then the Leopard coaches will always be just a step past their prime and perhaps just a tad less "hungry." If, on the other hand, the current situation is merely a coincidence, and McCutcheon is willing to consider a younger go-getter who is willing to use this as a stepping stone (as Pete Lembo did at Lehigh), then I think there is some hope. If one of your goals in the hiring decision is to not go through this again anytime soon, you are starting behind the eight ball.

[Franks Tanks]

Dont know the reality w Tavani's situation, but he seems to have reached the Lembo tipping point in worse shape than Pete himself. No doubt severe funding cutback gutted program thru no fault of Tavani. I doubt even a winning season next yr will help unless it includes a win over Lehigh at the minimum. But would he be canned before #150?

Rich, the funding issue simply no longer rings true. Frank had restricted funds for one class- the just graduated senior class.

Last year Lafayette spent 4.3 million on football.

Lehigh spent 4.48.

Lafayette is not at a funding or facilities disadvantage when it comes to football. Frank is simply not getting the job done. He has limited X's and O's knowledge and has lost the motivational edge with the players. He seems defeated. He leans on assistants to put together the technical aspect of the game plans, and has stuck with certain assistants for too long. If we brought in Heffner to be head coach this program would take off. I firmly believe that. We could get a complete dud, but I feel Frank has been the worst coach in the PL the last few years outside of Masella.

[CFBfan]

Rich, the funding issue simply no longer rings true. Frank had restricted funds for one class- the just graduated senior class.

Last year Lafayette spent 4.3 million on football.

Lehigh spent 4.48.

Lafayette is not at a funding or facilities disadvantage when it comes to football. Frank is simply not getting the job done. He has limited X's and O's knowledge and has lost the motivational edge with the players. He seems defeated. He leans on assistants to put together the technical aspect of the game plans, and has stuck with certain assistants for too long. If we brought in Heffner to be head coach this program would take off. I firmly believe that. We could get a complete dud, but I feel Frank has been the worst coach in the PL the last few years outside of Masella.

That's too bad, always sad when a good and decent guy just isn't getting the job done

[Franks Tanks]

That's too bad, always sad when a good and decent guy just isn't getting the job done

I like Frank greatly as a person, and would send my son to play for him. I would however have to live with the fact that 2-3 times per year the team will lose a game they probably should've won. Frank can bring the drama at times, but he will not put up with BS. The kids graduate and generally stay out of trouble.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There are signs that he has lost the team. He has a long string of no-show games on his resume, including 3 of the last 5 vs. Lehigh. His "disciplinary problems" are accumulating into quite a large pile. There are also some hints that he has lost respect with the players.

In your opinion, was 148 one of those three no-shows? Certainly 147 was, the only one where I'd say unequivocally that it was the case.

Far be it from me to give advice to you guys, but you haven't had a game-breaking QB since Rob Curley graduated, and those "disciplinary problems" hit your RB that was supposed to be a star. Hard to win when 2/3rd of your skill positions are down. (Insert Georgetown 2012 season recap here.)

[RichH2]

Losing an entire class is gutting program. Yup, you are back up to equal funding and probably should have done better last yr where it did seem Pards lost some winnable games. I am commenting from the outside. No idea whether he lost team or perhaps just lost too many good assts who were able to keep team into game.
In either event, if above is true recruiting wont really help , will it?

[Franks Tanks]

Losing an entire class is gutting program. Yup, you are back up to equal funding and probably should have done better last yr where it did seem Pards lost some winnable games. I am commenting from the outside. No idea whether he lost team or perhaps just lost too many good assts who were able to keep team into game.
In either event, if above is true recruiting wont really help , will it?

It won't hurt. Even Andy Coen can win championships with good assistants and better players.

[RichH2]

Andy does have excellent staff and really has improved as HC. The question you didn't answer is does Tavani have a good staff even if not as good as it was.

[DFW HOYA]

Andy does have excellent staff and really has improved as HC. The question you didn't answer is does Tavani have a good staff even if not as good as it was.

Much is made about ranking head coaches. Any guess on ranking the staffs?

[Go...gate]

I like Frank greatly as a person, and would send my son to play for him. I would however have to live with the fact that 2-3 times per year the team will lose a game they probably should've won. Frank can bring the drama at times, but he will not put up with BS. The kids graduate and generally stay out of trouble.

Sounds to me that he should stay for all the reasons that really matter. He's not running an NFL puppy mill.

[carney2]

In your opinion, was 148 one of those three no-shows?

No shows: 147, 145, 144.

[van]

We really need Bogie here to liven this up, anyone know how he is doing?

[RichH2]

He did check in to say they were recovering both home and business but a long way to go. I miss him also but hope all is going well with rebuilding.

[Franks Tanks]

Andy does have excellent staff and really has improved as HC. The question you didn't answer is does Tavani have a good staff even if not as good as it was.

I feel our staff is very medicore.

In addition to Heffner and Faragalli, we also lost Hachman a few years ago who is now the DC at Towson.

I still like Loose. He knows his stuff and is a very good recruiter. I like Fein less and less every year. Our Qb's continue to make too many mistakes and we have lacked a consistent running game.

[RichH2]

Ok, Heffner one of the best to pass thru PL. Faragulli dont really recall. Does sort of highlight current issue w Pards as staff more than Tavani altho he did hire them. What about Clayton?

[Franks Tanks]

Ok, Heffner one of the best to pass thru PL. Faragulli dont really recall. Does sort of highlight current issue w Pards as staff more than Tavani altho he did hire them. What about Clayton?

Faragalli was OC from 00 to 07. Left for Richmond and won a title with them. Soon after followed his boss to Virginia. He developed Glavic and Mauer. He is a conservative play caller, but a darn good coach. Clayton is just average IMO. The line has improved very slowly under his watch and is still very mistake prone.

[Sader87]

I can't believe how little $$$ assistants make at HC these days...been discussed at our board recently...we lose coaches to other schools a lot. Shame, HC was a "destination" stop for coaches (at the 1-AA level anyway) throughout the 80's. Have I mentioned that I liked a lot of what HC did football-wise in the 80's as compared to today????

[RichH2]

Ahh, 87, living in the past rather hopeless. I am looking forward to the next 3-4 yrsrs and seeing zPL grow and strengthen. A fun exciting time yo enjoy. A shame you are missing it.
FT
Monstrr uglies that Clayton is bringing in take lots of time. I would hazard that you will habe a consisyent line next yr. Lots of Q marks. Guess this thread will pick up stram again in Feb as most new classes are announced. Looking forward to Carney's nee system.

[DFW HOYA]

Ahh, 87, living in the past rather hopeless. I am looking forward to the next 3-4 yrs and seeing PL grow and strengthen. A fun exciting time yo enjoy. A shame you are missing it.


Time will tell, but the questions on the long term status of the two associate members isn't going away. The money boosters at Fordham are not altogether content with the PL and will start looking at the CAA down the road, esp. as Stony Brook continues to grow.

[Sader87]

I'm optimistic for the future but I can't help thinking that HC essentially "wasted" the last 25 years to return to where they were in the late 80's i.e. a scholarship football program.

[ngineer]

Tavani cannot and will not be "canned." Short of serial killings or child abuse, it just ain't gonna happen on College Hill.

As for the Tavani-Lembo comparison, I still say that Lembo's problem was simple - he wasn't Kevin Higgins. Of course, you mix in that wallpaper paste personality and... As for Tavani, his effectiveness as a football coach has deteriorated to the point that one must ask if he can ever recover. Consider:

On game day he is a consistent dim witted Frankosaurus. It's as if he has his leather helmet on sideways and cannot properly see out of the ear hole. On the plus side, he is on the verge of having a dominant offensive line. If the incoming freshman class includes a baby bull type running back, his 1920s style may achieve some results.

There are signs that he has lost the team. He has a long string of no-show games on his resume, including 3 of the last 5 vs. Lehigh. His "disciplinary problems" are accumulating into quite a large pile. There are also some hints that he has lost respect with the players.

If the current recruiting efforts reveal that he cannot recruit properly with scholarships and/or that his reputation is out there and hindering his efforts, it's going to be a long and dreary road into 2015 when his current contract expires.

In short, I don't think that Lembo and Tavani are comparable at all. Lembo was despised for no apparent valid reason. He continued to win and continued to perform at high levels. There is, of course, the question as to whether he left an empty pantry when he moved on. As for Tavani, it's performance and perceptions of control.

No comparision between Lembo and Tavani. Pete may have matured since his days as a young HC. He inherited a great situation with Cecchini and Gilmore as his Coordinators and a boatload of talent. Pete was always looking to move up the rung and Elon was a perfect job--scholarships, losing program, 'power conference'. Turn it around and he's on his way. He won't be at Ball St. more than another year or two imo. Very thin skinned, but he was very young at the time and somewhat insecure, which is when you yell at 80 year old alums who have the audacity to question a call you made during a game. After that incident, he never fully repaired his image. He had a sacrastic streak which can wear after awhile. He also had a number of issues with the team. Again, I think his youth at the time actually worked against him. That being said, he's a very bright guy from an coaching standpoint. Tavani had Lembo beat on personality and recruiting ability, and clearly was not looking to 'move up', but likes the atmosphere and what LC provides for him and his family. Coen, I see closer to a Tavani. He really likes the players and seeing them develop into men. Certainly makes some questionable calls during a game, imo, but that's what we fans are paid to do. I mean the onsides kick attempt against Colgate was a huge game changer, and wasn't called for, but at the same time it shows a willingness to take chances in order to win.

[Go Green]

Ahh, 87, living in the past rather hopeless.

You should go on the Ivy board. More than half the guys bemoan how far the Ivy programs have fallen from the "glory days' of the 1960s and 1970s when we were scheduling games against the academies and holding our own. I keep trying to tell them that very little has changed (other than crowds and media attention), and that our top FCS teams would do just fine against the academies. They don't listen...

This board I think had more perspective. Just yesterday, the debate was whether the academies should drop down to FCS as well. xthumbsupx

[Sader87]

The Ivy teams were better overall (with respect to FBS schools today) in the 60's and 70's.

[Go Green]

The Ivy teams were better overall (with respect to FBS schools today) in the 60's and 70's.

We will agree to disagree.

Beating "small colleges" UConn and UNH consistently in the 1960s and 1970s does not prove that the Ivy teams of that era were better than the FCS teams.

[Sader87]

Your own alma mater won the Lambert Trophy and was ranked in the Top 20 (Major College/1-A/FBS) in 1970.

The Ivies weren't dominant then... i.e. beating Penn St, BC, Syracuse etc but they were much closer to the level of those types of programs then than they are today...no question.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We will agree to disagree.

Beating "small colleges" UConn and UNH consistently in the 1960s and 1970s does not prove that the Ivy teams of that era were better than the FCS teams.

Calvin Hill. Carry on.

[Go Green]

Your own alma mater won the Lambert Trophy and was ranked in the Top 20 (Major College/1-A/FBS) in 1970.
.

That's simply another way of saying that the media treated us better in those days. That 1970 team kicked the tar out of Ivy opponents (done plenty of times in FCS era), and also murdered UMass (then "small colleges") and an 0-10-1 Holy Cross team.

Comparing apples to apples, it's hard to see why that team was objectively better than any number of undefeated Ivy teams in the FCS era.

[Go Green]

Calvin Hill. Carry on.

Matt Birk made more pro bowls.

:D

[Sader87]

The Ivies in general were getting better (higher rated for the time) recruits in the 60's and 70's.

Again, they weren't "world-beaters" and teams like Dartmouth 1970, Yale 1968 etc were outliers to an extent but overall, Ivy football was stronger vis a vis the rest of the college football world then than now.

[DFW HOYA]

The media did treat the Ivies and Eastern independents better (yes, including Holy Cross and Colgate) but there's also an important factor overlooked--in those days schools could offer unlimited scholarships. That wasn't much of an issue in the Northeast, but if Alabama or Penn State put 140 on scholarship, that kept a lot of talant off the field at other schools.

Moving from unlimited scholarships to 105 to 95 to 85 elevated the competitiveness of a lot of schools that didn't have recruiting depth before, incl. schools like BC, Virginia Tech, WVU, etc. The concurrent deemphasis to I-AA led the media to give up on the Ivy as a credible national conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The media did treat the Ivies and Eastern independents better (yes, including Holy Cross and Colgate) but there's also an important factor overlooked--in those days schools could offer unlimited scholarships. That wasn't much of an issue in the Northeast, but if Alabama or Penn State put 140 on scholarship, that kept a lot of talant off the field at other schools.

Moving from unlimited scholarships to 105 to 95 to 85 elevated the competitiveness of a lot of schools that didn't have recruiting depth before, incl. schools like BC, Virginia Tech, WVU, etc. The concurrent deemphasis to I-AA led the media to give up on the Ivy as a credible national conference.

Agreed, but I would also add the following, especially in the 1960s:

* In the 1960s, way fewer colleges and universities sponsored "big-time" football. Many schools today that compete at FBS today either didn't exist then (FAU, FIU) or didn't sponsor football. Directional schools were never considered "big-time" football. Also, no D-I or D-II designations, just "small", "middle" and "big-time" schools. As the overall supply of "opportunity for football education" increased, the need for many football players to head to Yale decreased.

* Impact of the Jim Crow south. Alabama and Kentucky weren't options if you were African-American, but Syracuse, Yale, and HBCU's were. As schools in the South essentially finally desegregated, Northern schools lost a part of their competitive advantage - again, through the Southern "big-time" programs increasing the "opportunity for football education" for a large group of underrepresented athletes.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Last time the following schools finished in the final FBS/FCS Top 20/25

Brown - NEVER FBS, #15/#18 2005 FCS
Columbia - #20 1947 FBS, NEVER FCS
Cornell - #20 1950 FBS, NEVER FCS
Dartmouth - #13/#14 1970 FBS, #17 1996 FCS
Harvard - NEVER FBS, #16 2011 FCS
Penn - #7 1947 FBS, #18 2010 FCS
Princeton - #13 1964 FBS, #18 2006 FCS
Yale - #14/#18 1960 FBS, #22 2007 FCS

Holy Cross - #17/#19 1951 FBS, #17 2009 FCS
Colgate - NEVER FBS, #?? 2012 FCS
Georgetown - #13 FBS 1940, NEVER FCS
Fordham - #6 1941 FBS, #20 2007 FCS
Lafayette - #19 1940 FBS, #24 2009 FCS

Bucknell and Lehigh were FBS/University Division for a short period.

[Go Green]

Last time the following schools finished in the final FBS/FCS Top 20/25



The widespread belief among the Ivy folks is that our FCS/I-AA ranking is always artificially lowered because of our refusal to participate in the playoffs. An undefeated Ivy team that wins by an average of 17 a game still can't get a top-ten ranking in the FCS.

It's our own fault, of course. And would help if our league powers **coughHarvardcough** started playing some tougher OOC competition. But that's the perception...

Live by media, die by media...

[RichH2]

Gee OWL, should go back pre war both LU and BU were there, heh, heh....
Dun historical analysis tbanks. Me, I'm happy now to kick their elitist butts more often. Referring to Penn , of course, just dont like them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The widespread belief among the Ivy folks is that our FCS/I-AA ranking is always artificially lowered because of our refusal to participate in the playoffs. An undefeated Ivy team that wins by an average of 17 a game still can't get a top-ten ranking in the FCS.

It's our own fault, of course.

+10000000000

You'd be surprised what playoff participation will do to your national ranking. Bet the PFL will see that next season.

[DFW HOYA]

* Impact of the Jim Crow south. Alabama and Kentucky weren't options if you were African-American, but Syracuse, Yale, and HBCU's were. As schools in the South essentially finally desegregated, Northern schools lost a part of their competitive advantage - again, through the Southern "big-time" programs increasing the "opportunity for football education" for a large group of underrepresented athletes.

But realistically, few Northern programs recruited significantly from African-American high schools. The impact didn't bury the Eastern schools, it buried the HBCU's.

[Franks Tanks]

But realistically, few Northern programs recruited significantly from African-American high schools. The impact didn't bury the Eastern schools, it buried the HBCU's.

Syracuse and Penn State were greatly aided by their willingness to recruit and play African Americans. Syracuse probably more than any other program with guys like Jim Brown, Ernie Davis and Folyd Little. But those guys were all from the North, and it was rather rare for anyone (black or white) to travel from Georgia or Alabama to play football in the North. I agree that the HBCU's got all the southern black talent for decades and the number if NFL players produced by those schools back in the day is proof.

[carney2]

Does sort of highlight current issue w Pards as staff more than Tavani altho he did hire them.

The buck stops here. And, if you were forced to watch that offense every week, rather than once a year, you too would be questioning whether the recipient of said buck is even capable of reading it, let alone doing something about it.

[PAllen]

... Lembo was despised for no apparent valid reason....

2 reasons -
- losing to Lafayette again and again and again
- yelling (yes literally yelling) at alumni and boosters and telling them to STFU and mind their own business.

[Lehigh'98]

2 reasons -
- losing to Lafayette again and again and again
- yelling (yes literally yelling) at alumni and boosters and telling them to STFU and mind their own business.

Pistol Pete. Was a running back coach in '98. Very low on the totem poll while Coen was OC. Does anyone know what exactly he did to get the head coaching job in 99? Still amazes me...

[PAllen]

Pistol Pete. Was a running back coach in '98. Very low on the totem poll while Coen was OC. Does anyone know what exactly he did to get the head coaching job in 99? Still amazes me...

I believe he was recruiting coordinator when he took over, but don't remember if he was promoted other than that prior to becoming HC.

[Go Green]

+10000000000

You'd be surprised what playoff participation will do to your national ranking. Bet the PFL will see that next season.

You're probably right about that. And when Butler ends up higher ranked than the Ivy champ in a few years, the old guys will again lament that the Ivy's quality of play has deteriorated even further since the 1960s.... xconfusedx

I still say that the quality of play has held steady--only media perception has changed. If the 1960s and 1970s Ivy teams were beating the Penn States, Oklahomas, and Syracuses of the world, ok fine. Today's Ivy teams couldn't do that. While we were beating the UConns, UNHs, and Rutgers back then, those programs were the equivalents of low-FCS or D-II programs today.

We were (sometimes) beating Academies back then. But our good teams could do that today. Heck, a medicore Holy Cross team beat Army not too long ago. For whatever reason, the Ivies and Academies aren't scheduling games anymore (although maybe the Yale-Army game in 2014 will rekindle some interest).

That leaves the more nebulous claim that the teams of yesterday got better players. And maybe Calvin Hill and Ed Marinaro were indeed better than Clifton Dawson and Chad Levitt. I can come back and say that the FCS-era quarterbacks were better than their 1960s and 1970s counterparts. Usually Brian Dowling is trotted out as the best QB from the I-A era, but Jay Fiedler, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Jason Garrett all had better NFL careers than he did. And I really have a hard time swallowing the argument that Jeff Matthews, John Witkowski, Gavin Hoffman, Jeff Terrell, and many excellent FCS QBs would have carried clipboards for the 1960s teams. I mean... dream on, old guys. xlolx

[RichH2]

I believe he was recruiting coordinator when he took over, but don't remember if he was promoted other than that prior to becoming HC.

Yup, eecruiting coordinator ,superb, players loved him and Kevin pushed for him. KH had tremendous clout. Did not deal back then outside the team at all well which I was the unwary recipient of a coupke of times. Still supported him as HC, just didn't like him.
His rsal issue to me was he often would play not to lose rather than to win. We lost more often than not when he did that.

[Franks Tanks]

Pistol Pete. Was a running back coach in '98. Very low on the totem poll while Coen was OC. Does anyone know what exactly he did to get the head coaching job in 99? Still amazes me...

Pete's first year as HC was 2001. Per wikipedia Andy had left for Penn for the 2000 season. Perhaps he saw the writing on the wall?

[LUHawker]

His rsal issue to me was he often would play not to lose rather than to win. We lost more often than not when he did that.

I agree with you on this Rich and would also point out that other than the Hofstra OT playoff victory in 2001, Lembo never delivered a "big" win. After 2001, Lehigh beat all the teams they were "supposed" to beat, but never took down a "big team". The OT loss to Delaware comes to mind, in particular.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree with you on this Rich and would also point out that other than the Hofstra OT playoff victory in 2001, Lembo never delivered a "big" win. After 2001, Lehigh beat all the teams they were "supposed" to beat, but never took down a "big team". The OT loss to Delaware comes to mind, in particular.

Dear heavens I still have nightmares about that game, but it's hard to say that game came down to coaching. Rath converted that huge 4th down, they score the TD, and then the kicker misses the extra point. This wasn't an Illinois State/App deal, it was a flat-out miss.

[RichH2]

A nightmare loss. Pete not at fault for miss but for taking O out of game . So many 3 and outs run, run pass punt. Heh, heh ,just like some Pards think runs their O now.

[LUHawker]

Dear heavens I still have nightmares about that game, but it's hard to say that game came down to coaching. Rath converted that huge 4th down, they score the TD, and then the kicker misses the extra point. This wasn't an Illinois State/App deal, it was a flat-out miss.

The missed XP was obviously not Pete's fault in that game, but we were up by a couple of scores in 4Q and Pete went ultra-conservative. That really isn't the point, however. What it was, was another example of when Pete had a very competitive team, but couldn't deliver a big win. I'll note a few others: JMU in playoffs (14-13 loss), losses to Colgate and Penn in 2003, first game of series loss to Nova. Loss to LC in 2004 and of course, 2005. Actually, the silver-lining of that loss (and I said it to my friends at the time) was that Pete would be out of there. Maybe he was going already, but that sealed the deal, IMO.

[Gater]

The last time Colgate was in the Top 20 in the now FBS was November 1977. They lost their last game (to Delaware, always to Delaware) and dropped out of the poll.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1092992/index.htm

[Go Green]

The last time Colgate was in the Top 20 in the now FBS was November 1977. They lost their last game (to Delaware, always to Delaware) and dropped out of the poll.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1092992/index.htm

That was a great article! Thanks for posting!

Contains a lot of the same debate I've been having with the Ivy old-timers-- just how good were those 1970s teams, anyway?

Some quotes from the article that could equally apply to the Ivy teams of yesteryear:


Everybody knows about the Longhorns of Texas: big team, big school. This is to introduce the Red Raiders of Colgate, a tiny but major college that runs the rusty old wing T. Forget the difference in size—Colgate is going stride-for-stride with Texas as the only unbeaten team left in the country. Last Saturday the Raiders piled up 540 yards while whipping Boston University 43-22 for their eighth straight. It now seems eminently likely that Colgate will roll to an 11-0 season, outstatisticking every other team in the nation. It also seems eminently likely that the Raiders will finish unranked and uninvited.

With reason. Colgate is chewing its way through a less-than-demanding schedule that includes five Division II teams.


With all this success comes the question: How good is Colgate? There may not be an answer. Among its opponents, only Rutgers has met a top-20 team, and in that game Penn State manhandled the Scarlet Knights 45-7. On the other hand, Colgate beat Rutgers nearly as easily. "I don't know how good we are," Dunlap says, "but we play real well."

[UAalum72]

I still say that the quality of play has held steady--only media perception has changed. If the 1960s and 1970s Ivy teams were beating the Penn States, Oklahomas, and Syracuses of the world, ok fine. Today's Ivy teams couldn't do that. While we were beating the UConns, UNHs, and Rutgers back then, those programs were the equivalents of low-FCS or D-II programs today.
But they didn't. Contrary to their memories, the Ivy played only Navy three times in the 1960s, Buffalo twice and Miami (OH) in 1977. Only after the IL added the tenth game to their schedule in 1980 did they start to play I-As again - ironically, mostly AFTER the IL was reclassified to I-AA.

We were (sometimes) beating Academies back then.
Ivy League record vs. Army in the 1980s was about 2-15 (both wins by Harvard).

The Ivy League agreement was supposed to keep the league pure of the evils of big-time football. It succeeded. In that way you're right - Ivy League football has stood still while the rest of the country passed it by.

[Pard4Life]

You're probably right about that. And when Butler ends up higher ranked than the Ivy champ in a few years, the old guys will again lament that the Ivy's quality of play has deteriorated even further since the 1960s.... xconfusedx

I still say that the quality of play has held steady--only media perception has changed. If the 1960s and 1970s Ivy teams were beating the Penn States, Oklahomas, and Syracuses of the world, ok fine. Today's Ivy teams couldn't do that. While we were beating the UConns, UNHs, and Rutgers back then, those programs were the equivalents of low-FCS or D-II programs today.

We were (sometimes) beating Academies back then. But our good teams could do that today. Heck, a medicore Holy Cross team beat Army not too long ago. For whatever reason, the Ivies and Academies aren't scheduling games anymore (although maybe the Yale-Army game in 2014 will rekindle some interest).

That leaves the more nebulous claim that the teams of yesterday got better players. And maybe Calvin Hill and Ed Marinaro were indeed better than Clifton Dawson and Chad Levitt. I can come back and say that the FCS-era quarterbacks were better than their 1960s and 1970s counterparts. Usually Brian Dowling is trotted out as the best QB from the I-A era, but Jay Fiedler, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Jason Garrett all had better NFL careers than he did. And I really have a hard time swallowing the argument that Jeff Matthews, John Witkowski, Gavin Hoffman, Jeff Terrell, and many excellent FCS QBs would have carried clipboards for the 1960s teams. I mean... dream on, old guys. xlolx

I am no old guy, but I was surprised to see the quality of play on Yale's 1968 team in the H-Y documentary. Dowling had a cannon and Calvin Hill was definitely a BCS team RB in today's age.

[Engineer86]

Dear heavens I still have nightmares about that game, but it's hard to say that game came down to coaching. Rath converted that huge 4th down, they score the TD, and then the kicker misses the extra point. This wasn't an Illinois State/App deal, it was a flat-out miss.

That extra point hit me. All I could think was after how hard the O worked to score to then flat out miss the XP, ugh

[Engineer86]

A nightmare loss. Pete not at fault for miss but for taking O out of game . So many 3 and outs run, run pass punt. Heh, heh ,just like some Pards think runs their O now.

For most of the second half I was telling my kids if Lehigh holds them with a two score lead we can leave ... And thus I got hit by the missed XP

[RichH2]

My twins were with me. My daughter cried and to this day still does not really understand football even tho her twin brother, father and 3 cousins played.

[Sader87]

Not to belabor the point (but I will of course), but Holy Cross is a good example (though not great) of comparing the Ivies of the 60's/70's and today. HC was playing basically the Ivies, the Yankee Conference schools and a few FBS (then University Division) schools every year in that era. There were years, like 1978, when HC beat Air Force, Army and BC but lost to Brown for instance. Just one example, but point being, the Ivies then were in general stronger than they are today.

Were there some bad Ivy teams back then? Absolutely, but the better Ivy teams were much closer to the FBS teams of that era than they are today...it's really not debateable imo.

[RichH2]

Absolutely correct 87. Still recall Yale with Mercein. A different world back then , pre big $$$. Perhaps better , but given the greed ramoant now at the top of college football we will never see those days again. Instead of a large heterogenous group of college football, we are now 4 separate, almost antagonistic groups, quickly growing further and further apart. I find that I am more concerned with E.Washington &SHSU et al than SEC, Big10 et al. The dynamics are no longer comparable. For good or ill that is college football now.

[Go Green]

Not to belabor the point (but I will of course), but Holy Cross is a good example (though not great) of comparing the Ivies of the 60's/70's and today. HC was playing basically the Ivies, the Yankee Conference schools and a few FBS (then University Division) schools every year in that era. There were years, like 1978, when HC beat Air Force, Army and BC but lost to Brown for instance. Just one example.

You can't just say "they beat school X" and rest. Was school X any good then?

In 1978..

BC went 0-11.

AFA (even with Bill Parcells as coach) went 3-8.

Army went 4-6-1 (one win was against AFA).

Brown was pretty decent (although they didn't win the Ivy).

Really not difficult imagining the same thing happening in the modern era in the right circumstances. I mean, I could point to 2002 when HC beat Army, yet lost to Harvard and Yale as a counter-example of how the FCS Ivy teams can still play with the (supposed) "big boys."

Now if HC had beaten Navy (which won the Holiday Bowl) in 1978, and all the rest played out, then that would be another story.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Speaking of old days...

The 'Pard fans will love this...



1926

Claimed by: Alabama (9-0-1)
Also claimed by: Stanford (10-0-1) and Lafayette (9-0)

This was the first year in which someone actually attempted to determine a national champ using a ranking system. Frank Dickinson, an economics professor at the University of Illinois, created the Dickinson System to determine a champ at the end of the season. Dickinson used math -- sort of -- to determine his rankings. For example, he awarded 30 points for a win against a "strong team" and 20 for a win against a "weak team." In the 14 years the Dickinson System existed, it was widely mocked for its choice of champion. In 1926, Stanford finished ranked No. 1, Lafayette finished ranked No. 4 and Alabama finished ranked No. 10. This was a ludicrous disparity considering the fact that Alabama and Stanford tied in the Rose Bowl at the end of that season.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130103/notre-dame-alabama-championships-claimed/#ixzz2H7atBPaU

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130103/notre-dame-alabama-championships-claimed/?sct=uk_t12_a8

[DFW HOYA]

Absolutely correct 87. Still recall Yale with Mercein. A different world back then , pre big $$$. Perhaps better , but given the greed ramoant now at the top of college football we will never see those days again. Instead of a large heterogenous group of college football, we are now 4 separate, almost antagonistic groups, quickly growing further and further apart. I find that I am more concerned with E.Washington &SHSU et al than SEC, Big10 et al. The dynamics are no longer comparable. For good or ill that is college football now.

Doesn't have to be.

I am surprised a few more schools haven't given another option more serious consideration. It's essentially a status between I-A and I-AA, where a school basically plays an independent schedule of both I-A and I-AA teams, recruits as it sees fit (cough...academic index...) and arranges TV appearances for visibility purposes. No autobid for the playoffs, but as we've seen, that's not a huge loss.

For Holy Cross, such a status would be akin to the early 1980's schedules: an Ivy or two, a CAA or two, maybe Buffalo, UMass or BC/UConn, a road guarantee game against a BCS level conference, and a Sun Belt or MAC team thrown in to fill out the schedule. The team would be an outlier within I-AA, but not quite I-A, but if I-A were to change its membership rules (and we know that's coming, one way or the other), the team is perceived as a more credible candidate than jumping from the PL. The problem is, of course, where schools have aligned themselves with conferences with no serious ambition of upward mobility (cough...Patriot...) and thus HC has no institutional interest in rocking the boat to do so.

Look where Stony Brook was just a decade ago. Here's that SBU schedule: St. John's, Wagner, Albany, St. Francis, Monmouth, Sacred Heart, Siena, Central Connecticut, Robert Morris, and Canisius. Where will they be in another 10 years? Now ask yourself, where will Holy Cross be in ten years?

[RichH2]

I agree DFW, it doesn't have to be, but for now it is.

[breezy]

I certainly agree with the idea that the Ivy League teams of the 1960s and 1970s were much closer in talent and ability to current major college football teams. However, I have the sense that many PL supporters believe that the advent of scholarships will mean that PL teams will have a competitive advantage over Ivy League teams, and I think such thinking is quite wrong. I believe that most Ivy League schools have made a renewed commitment to improving their football teams, and are using their new financial aid policies to accomplish this goal. Harvard, Brown and Penn are already there, and I think that Yale, Princeton, and Dartmouth are moving in that direction. Even Columbia and Cornell, each with new and energetic coaching staffs, will do so as well.

Take a look at Harvard -- which is, admittedly, probably the most aggressive in pursuing improvement. Right now, Yahoo/Rivals lists seven verbal commitments to Harvard (and has not yet reported an eighth commitment reported in news articles and other recruiting sites). These 8 commitments include 3 3* recruits, 3 2* recruits, and 2 unrated recruits. Thus far, as far as I know (and certainly there is a real possibility that there is a great deal of recruiting information that I do not know as yet), PL teams using scholarships have combined gotten only one 3* recruit (Lehigh).

More than likely, the availability of scholarships will have a gradual rather than immediate impact, and over the next 5 years PL teams should improve and become more competitive with other FCS teams. However, I believe that Ivy League teams will also improve over this period, and I believe that the PL will not gain a competitive advantage over the Ivy League during this time.