FCS Competitive Future Post-Realignment

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Assuming App St., Georgia Southern, and James Madison reclassify and ODU with Charlotte are already gone, that translates to 171 more full scholarship (counting 85 for Charlotte and 22 each for others) football players going to 5 schools in a geographical area heavily recruited by the CAA, SoCon, Big South, and PL.

I believe it's reasonable to assume the remaining schools in these conferences will lose enough quality players to the new "D1" recruiting bait to negatively impact competitiveness vs MVC and Big Sky schools in the playoffs.

I'm already certain that many more Georgia recruits will be available to the Eagles over lower-tier FBS schools that currently sign these players. Recruiting is never a zero sum game and we all know every recruit is a gamble, but I'm interested to know what others think.

[DFW HOYA]

Assuming App St., Georgia Southern, and James Madison reclassify and ODU with Charlotte are already gone, that translates to 171 more full scholarship (counting 85 for Charlotte and 22 each for others) football players going to 5 schools in a geographical area heavily recruited by the CAA, SoCon, Big South, and PL.

The PL is adding 360 scholarships among six schools over the next four years. That has an impact, too.

[citdog]

cliffy the rest of us in the SoCon, especially those of us that have been in the conference since the 30's, are seriously considering just shuttin' the whole thing down. how can we possibly survive without yearly trips to such exotic locales as pigs ***, ga and nedbeattyville, nc?


the subdivision will implode upon itself if you leave. we'll write songs about the glory days when we were so blessed as to have you two with us and pass these songs down as oral history for generations.

[Seawolf97]

From waht I have seen with the incoming class we are still recruiting well from California, Texas and Florida. Locally we have signed 3 all Long Island kids two of which are also all All NY State players. Those two turned down Purdue and Boston College to stay on Long Island. With all that is going on I think we will continue to well in the NY Metro area. We will play freshman if they deserve it so that helps. Going forward who knows. The super conferences will get their share of top 100 kids bound for the NFL and we will get our share of second tier players. And dont scoff at Long Island players , Maysonet and Jokolski were both local stars in high school and both were 1000yd running backs.

[Apphole]

cliffy the rest of us in the SoCon, especially those of us that have been in the conference since the 30's, are seriously considering just shuttin' the whole thing down. how can we possibly survive without yearly trips to such exotic locales as pigs ***, ga and nedbeattyville, nc?


the subdivision will implode upon itself if you leave. we'll write songs about the glory days when we were so blessed as to have you two with us and pass these songs down as oral history for generations.

Ah. Beautiful Nedbeattyville, NC.

http://map-works.appstate.edu/sites/map-works.appstate.edu/files/large_library1.jpg

http://blueridgeblog.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/kings_st_blog.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/183202_3663858560558_279672283_n.jpg

[FormerPokeCenter]

cliffy the rest of us in the SoCon, especially those of us that have been in the conference since the 30's, are seriously considering just shuttin' the whole thing down. how can we possibly survive without yearly trips to such exotic locales as pigs ***, ga and nedbeattyville, nc?


the subdivision will implode upon itself if you leave. we'll write songs about the glory days when we were so blessed as to have you two with us and pass these songs down as oral history for generations.

Ever since you've been doing The Wedge, I chuckle when I read you go off on somebody, since I now read your stuff somewhat "phonetically" and with a pronounced drawl...

[The Eagle's Cliff]

cliffy the rest of us in the SoCon, especially those of us that have been in the conference since the 30's, are seriously considering just shuttin' the whole thing down. how can we possibly survive without yearly trips to such exotic locales as pigs ***, ga and nedbeattyville, nc?


the subdivision will implode upon itself if you leave. we'll write songs about the glory days when we were so blessed as to have you two with us and pass these songs down as oral history for generations.

This was meant to be a serious question for relevant schools which I think disqualifies fans of any school in the Yankee-infested, marsh-stink town of Chucky.

I don't think it matters one way or the other for Bellhops. Winning once every 5 to 7 years against half the conference makes El Cid a non-factor in recruiting anyway.

THE Citadel vs Current SoCon since 1995:

App St (2-16)
Chattanooga (9-9)
Elon (5-5)
Furman (5-13)
GSU (4-14)
Samford (2-3)
W Carolina (9-9)
Wofford (3-15)

Just be glad you'll still have VMI on the schedule, but you should worry about the conference adding Gardner Webb or Coastal Carolina to replace the two annual ***-whippins you'll be missing from App and GSU.

[ASUMountaineer]

cliffy the rest of us in the SoCon, especially those of us that have been in the conference since the 30's, are seriously considering just shuttin' the whole thing down. how can we possibly survive without yearly trips to such exotic locales as pigs ***, ga and nedbeattyville, GA?


the subdivision will implode upon itself if you leave. we'll write songs about the glory days when we were so blessed as to have you two with us and pass these songs down as oral history for generations.

Fixed it for you...nothing good in Georgia. Well, your boy Sherman might disagree...

[citdog]

This was meant to be a serious question for relevant schools which I think disqualifies fans of any school in the Yankee-infested, marsh-stink town of Chucky.

I don't think it matters one way or the other for Bellhops. Winning once every 5 to 7 years against half the conference makes El Cid a non-factor in recruiting anyway.

THE Citadel vs Current SoCon since 1995:

App St (2-16)
Chattanooga (9-9)
Elon (5-5)
Furman (5-13)
GSU (4-14)
Samford (2-3)
W Carolina (9-9)
Wofford (3-15)

Just be glad you'll still have VMI on the schedule, but you should worry about the conference adding Gardner Webb or Coastal Carolina to replace the two annual ***-whippins you'll be missing from App and GSU.

23-21

52-28

[cbarrier90]

23-21

52-28

Might be the only SoCon school in recent memory to beat both GSU and ASU and not just be out of the race for a SoCon title, but not even make the playoffs. Heck, the conference title was shared by teams with two conference losses.

[fc97]

Assuming App St., Georgia Southern, and James Madison reclassify and ODU with Charlotte are already gone, that translates to 171 more full scholarship (counting 85 for Charlotte and 22 each for others) football players going to 5 schools in a geographical area heavily recruited by the CAA, SoCon, Big South, and PL.

I believe it's reasonable to assume the remaining schools in these conferences will lose enough quality players to the new "D1" recruiting bait to negatively impact competitiveness vs MVC and Big Sky schools in the playoffs.

I'm already certain that many more Georgia recruits will be available to the Eagles over lower-tier FBS schools that currently sign these players. Recruiting is never a zero sum game and we all know every recruit is a gamble, but I'm interested to know what others think.

maybe some. it might more impact western, uncp, a&t, nccu, coastal and other public schools first that are recruiting the state they're in primarily. the private schools and military schools already have a niche recruiting base and can branch out to other regions much easier due as scholarship budget is the same regardless. adding in kennesaw state might further dilute the georgia area or if west goergia goes d-i.

the big sky and mvfc have already had edges over the other regions simply due to the lack of competition of recruits in those areas. things have been pretty cyclical, things will bounce back either way.

[citdog]

i forgot



42-20



happy holidays OlFu

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

i forgot



42-20

happy holidays OlFu

Why stop with last year? Might as well remind everyone about The Dogs big 24-21 win in 2003 and the 27-14 victory in 1993. Of course there's that small matter of those other 17 seasons since 1993 with the combined score of ASU 665 - The Citadel 278. Merry Christmas!

[ASUMountaineer]

23-21

52-28

I thought you were all about history, but now you want to only focus on this year...

Is it a trend that ASU has won every game against Citadel except two since I was in 8th grade (1994), or are you holding on to the one win in the past nine?

[ASUMountaineer]

Why stop with last year? Might as well remind everyone about The Dogs big 24-21 win in 2003 and the 27-14 victory in 1993. Of course there's that small matter of those other 17 seasons since 1993 with the combined score of ASU 665 - The Citadel 278. Merry Christmas!

You just put my post to shame. Well done! xsmileyclapx

[citdog]

Why stop with last year? Might as well remind everyone about The Dogs big 24-21 win in 2003 and the 27-14 victory in 1993. Of course there's that small matter of those other 17 seasons since 1993 with the combined score of ASU 665 - The Citadel 278. Merry Christmas!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS1p5vrlKj4

[ngineer]

I don't see a significant impact. With the type of students the PL recruits, I don't see them being impressed with playing in a low tier FBS school as opposed to going to a school that has a shot at playing for an NCAA Championship. Prime example is recent verbal received by Lehigh from a 3-star DE who had previously committed to South Florida. Holtz gets fired, and numerous players started looking elsewhere. Recruit chooses Lehigh over Boston College, Duke, Air Force, and few others. With the PL starting with scholarships this year, the PL will be more of a force in the South for athletes with very good academics.

[citdog]

With the PL starting with scholarships this year, the PL will be more of a force in the South for athletes with very good academics.


you obviously don't know the South. The above is, I hope, meant as satire.

[walliver]

Might be the only SoCon school in recent memory to beat both GSU and ASU and not just be out of the race for a SoCon title, but not even make the playoffs. Heck, the conference title was shared by teams with two conference losses.

In 2003, they beat the former Big 3 (before Furman dropped football), and missed the playoffs.

[walliver]

Assuming App St., Georgia Southern, and James Madison reclassify and ODU with Charlotte are already gone, that translates to 171 more full scholarship (counting 85 for Charlotte and 22 each for others) football players going to 5 schools in a geographical area heavily recruited by the CAA, SoCon, Big South, and PL.

I believe it's reasonable to assume the remaining schools in these conferences will lose enough quality players to the new "D1" recruiting bait to negatively impact competitiveness vs MVC and Big Sky schools in the playoffs.

I'm already certain that many more Georgia recruits will be available to the Eagles over lower-tier FBS schools that currently sign these players. Recruiting is never a zero sum game and we all know every recruit is a gamble, but I'm interested to know what others think.

FCS allows 63 scholarships spread among 85 players. If ASU, GSU, and JMU move up, the net effect will primarily be converting partial scholarships to full scholarships so there won't be a lot of talent dilution.

Obviously, offering only full scholarships does offer a competitive advantage.

The real loser in your scenario would be Troy and South Alabama.

UTC, WCU and CCU might also be affected.

[chattownmocs]

When will this nonsense end? Georgia Southern and App State are not going anywhere. The FBS does not want you. You have absolutely nothing to bring to the table. If you get an invite to the sun belt it will be because the sun belt no longer competes at the highest level.

[Saint3333]

FCS allows 63 scholarships spread among 85 players. If ASU, GSU, and JMU move up, the net effect will primarily be converting partial scholarships to full scholarships so there won't be a lot of talent dilution.

Obviously, offering only full scholarships does offer a competitive advantage.

The real loser in your scenario would be Troy and South Alabama.

UTC, WCU and CCU might also be affected.

That math doesn't add up. Those partial scholarship players at the FCS level will now be the full scholarship players at the FCS level. The FBS programs will take the full scholarship players away from FCS programs. Georgia State and UNCC are already doing it, ask any SoCon program that is going head to head on a kid. That FBS label is a trump card to 18 year olds whether we like it or not.

[Saint3333]

When will this nonsense end? Georgia Southern and App State are not going anywhere. The FBS does not want you. You have absolutely nothing to bring to the table. If you get an invite to the sun belt it will be because the sun belt no longer competes at the highest level.

I was doubting our chances until I read this. Could you give us your lock of the year for 2013 predictions that neither GSU or ASU will join an FBS conference?

That would seal the deal. Also if you have any stock "sell" tips that would be helpful for my retirement fund.

[Laker]

There will be a lot of movement after the holiday season and bowl games are over. The other thing that schools are interested in is if Maryland will have to pay the ACC for leaving, and the schools that are leaving the Big East can make some kind of deal. I don't think that anyone can predict with any kind of accuracy what will happen- but we are no where near being done.

[MplsBison]

There will be a lot of movement after the holiday season and bowl games are over. The other thing that schools are interested in is if Maryland will have to pay the ACC for leaving, and the schools that are leaving the Big East can make some kind of deal. I don't think that anyone can predict with any kind of accuracy what will happen- but we are no where near being done.

Any further "prime mover" type of realignment, ie at the top, will only come after those conferences know if Maryland has to pay $50 million to the Big East or not.

[lionsrking2]

Assuming App St., Georgia Southern, and James Madison reclassify and ODU with Charlotte are already gone, that translates to 171 more full scholarship (counting 85 for Charlotte and 22 each for others) football players going to 5 schools in a geographical area heavily recruited by the CAA, SoCon, Big South, and PL.

I believe it's reasonable to assume the remaining schools in these conferences will lose enough quality players to the new "D1" recruiting bait to negatively impact competitiveness vs MVC and Big Sky schools in the playoffs.

I'm already certain that many more Georgia recruits will be available to the Eagles over lower-tier FBS schools that currently sign these players. Recruiting is never a zero sum game and we all know every recruit is a gamble, but I'm interested to know what others think.

I'm no expert in demographics by any means, but you do have to take into account population growth, which should naturally produce an increase in D-I caliber athletes, particularly in states which are not only growing at a significant rate but also produce a high percentage of D-I signees per year. Not saying its enough to keep up with the present scholarship demands as programs move up, but we're not dealing with a static pool of available talent. As long as we're not seeing a flood of programs moving up every year, over time, population growth should help satisfy demand.

[Laker]

Any further "prime mover" type of realignment, ie at the top, will only come after those conferences know if Maryland has to pay $50 million to the Big East or not.

Question: Do the seven basketball schools in the Big East have to pay to leave, or was that just for theirfootball schools? I never heard anything about that, only if they would keep the Big East name or not- and I'm guessing no on that.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS1p5vrlKj4

That is the best you can come up with? You disappoint me. We'll revisit after the 2013 rematch on banks of the Ashley.

[walliver]

Question: Do the seven basketball schools in the Big East have to pay to leave, or was that just for theirfootball schools? I never heard anything about that, only if they would keep the Big East name or not- and I'm guessing no on that.

It is my understanding that the BB schools are in the driver's seat. They have enough votes to change the buy-out rules, change the distribution of buy-out payments, etc.

It may actually be in the BE's best financial interest to let the BB teams leave. They will lose money from the BB tournament, but they also will not have to share the FB money.

Maryland and the ACC are a different issue. The real question there is whether the $50M exit fee is legally enforceable. Part of the answer lies in the specifics of the ACC's by laws, but there may be antitrust issues also (can a conference force such a high buyout that a member could never afford to leave). My guess is the payout will be much lower than $50M.

[MplsBison]

Question: Do the seven basketball schools in the Big East have to pay to leave, or was that just for theirfootball schools? I never heard anything about that, only if they would keep the Big East name or not- and I'm guessing no on that.

I don't think this has been decided yet. Everything is going to be on the table for a negotiation (to avoid a lawsuit).

There's a lot of money out there yet owed to the Big East, from schools leaving. I'm sure a lot of other conferences wish it would just "go away". And if the $50 million ends up having to be paid, that's just more money that the CUSA 2.0 schools are going to collect.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Maryland and the ACC are a different issue. The real question there is whether the $50M exit fee is legally enforceable. Part of the answer lies in the specifics of the ACC's by laws, but there may be antitrust issues also (can a conference force such a high buyout that a member could never afford to leave). My guess is the payout will be much lower than $50M.

There's the other side of this coin too - if buyouts aren't enforcable, then what's to stop everyone from leaving everyone else, whenever and wherever they want?

It is very amusing to me that realignment has gotten so far out of hand that a judge has to step in.

[fc97]

I was doubting our chances until I read this. Could you give us your lock of the year for 2013 predictions that neither GSU or ASU will join an FBS conference?

That would seal the deal. Also if you have any stock "sell" tips that would be helpful for my retirement fund.

but that's only true for some kids. if you are looking for top talent that will play immediately, it might be true to an extent. but even with the number of fbs programs that have been out there, the talent level at fcs has remained the same. there are still kids looking for a good diploma, some want playing time that they won't get at fbs, or that don't get the position they want at fbs. it'll impact somewhat, but not to the extent that everyone thinks. it's about getting the talent needed for the program that fit in with what the school is.

i personally think this is more of a problem for the public schools that are kind of locked in the a particular state or region first. app going fbs and uncc at fbs means there are more scholarships available for kids staying in the state. has fcs seen a dramatic recruiting problem after marshall, wku, usa, troy, mtsu went fbs?

[fc97]

It is my understanding that the BB schools are in the driver's seat. They have enough votes to change the buy-out rules, change the distribution of buy-out payments, etc.

It may actually be in the BE's best financial interest to let the BB teams leave. They will lose money from the BB tournament, but they also will not have to share the FB money.

Maryland and the ACC are a different issue. The real question there is whether the $50M exit fee is legally enforceable. Part of the answer lies in the specifics of the ACC's by laws, but there may be antitrust issues also (can a conference force such a high buyout that a member could never afford to leave). My guess is the payout will be much lower than $50M.

the problem here isn't just the acc, that could also line up problems for any conference and a steep exit fee (see caa). proportionally, the caa's exit is much higher than the acc given the institutions and the expenditures.

[DFW HOYA]

There's the other side of this coin too - if buyouts aren't enforcable, then what's to stop everyone from leaving everyone else, whenever and wherever they want?

Not an attorney (the LSAT's saw to that) but the issue of "liquidated damages" versus a penalty in the out-clause has the Maryland situation ripe for a judge to overturn it. Is $50 million appropriate or merely punitive?

The solution to maintain solvency is for schools to sign fixed year grant of rights where (for example), Lehigh commits to the PL for renewable five year terms and any money owed it in TV, NCAA, etc. stays with the league for that term. Leaving early would allow the league to keep everything from the departing school, so the inventive to leave before the term is up becomes significant. Of course, the best way to keep good schools is to be a really good conference. The SEC's exit fee is all of $0.00. No one has taken them up on it in 50 years (Tulane was the last one, and look what happened to them.)

If Maryland's exit fee is tossed out, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, and Virginia Tech all have the Big 12 and SEC on speed dial, and UNC, NC State and Virginia will be checking around as well.

[fc97]

Not an attorney (the LSAT's saw to that) but the issue of "liquidated damages" versus a penalty in the out-clause has the Maryland situation ripe for a judge to overturn it. Is $50 million appropriate or merely punitive?

If it is tossed out, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, and Virginia Tech have the Big 12 and SEC on speed dial.

if thrown out, nc state is probably on that list too. clemson, florida state and georgia tech are ripe for the big 12 while nc state and virginia tech are ripe for the sec.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If Maryland's exit fee is tossed out, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, and Virginia Tech all have the Big 12 and SEC on speed dial, and UNC, NC State and Virginia will be checking around as well.


if thrown out, nc state is probably on that list too. clemson, florida state and georgia tech are ripe for the big 12 while nc state and virginia tech are ripe for the sec.

Wouldn't it be just desserts for the Big East if the end result was Pitt and Syracuse holding the ACC's bag?

They'd probably have to join UConn, Temple and UMass in... the Big East. Imagine that.

[MplsBison]

if thrown out, nc state is probably on that list too. clemson, florida state and georgia tech are ripe for the big 12 while nc state and virginia tech are ripe for the sec.

And UNC and Virginia to the Big Ten xnodx xnodx xnodx

[MplsBison]

Wouldn't it be just desserts for the Big East if the end result was Pitt and Syracuse holding the ACC's bag?

They'd probably have to join UConn, Temple and UMass in... the Big East. Imagine that.

If UNC, UVA, VT, NC St, GT, FSU and Clemson all left the ACC - in addition to Maryland leaving - the ACC would have the following teams left:

Duke
Wake Forest
Miami
BC
Syracuse
Pitt
Louisville
Notre Dame (non-football)

They would add: South Florida, Cincinnati, UConn & Temple.

[Babar]

If UNC, UVA, VT, NC St, GT, FSU and Clemson all left the ACC - in addition to Maryland leaving - the ACC would have the following teams left:

Duke
Wake Forest
Miami
BC
Syracuse
Pitt
Louisville
Notre Dame (non-football)

They would add: South Florida, Cincinnati, UConn & Temple.

If the North Carolina clique falls apart, there's no reason for the other schools to stick around, certainly not to play USF, Cinci, Uconn, and Temple. Duke, ND, and Miami can all get invitations elsewhere, and Duke and Notre Dame have the money to stay independent if they like. If the ACC loses the Carolina schools and/or the football powerhouses, the league will just become the Big East Part II. Or (I think more likely) it will cease to exist.

[MplsBison]

If the North Carolina clique falls apart, there's no reason for the other schools to stick around, certainly not to play USF, Cinci, Uconn, and Temple. Duke, ND, and Miami can all get invitations elsewhere, and Duke and Notre Dame have the money to stay independent if they like. If the ACC loses the Carolina schools and/or the football powerhouses, the league will just become the Big East Part II. Or (I think more likely) it will cease to exist.

In the scenario outlined, the Big Ten and the SEC would be at the magic 16 number with the Big XII at 13. It's possible that they could extend invitations to Miami and Duke, but I don't see Notre Dame going to the Big XII. They'd rather throw back in with the Catholic 7 for non-football.

The ACC will live on, regardless. Even if those three also move on. If the WAC isn't dead yet, jeez, seems like no conference will ever actually die.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the North Carolina clique falls apart, there's no reason for the other schools to stick around, certainly not to play USF, Cinci, Uconn, and Temple. Duke, ND, and Miami can all get invitations elsewhere, and Duke and Notre Dame have the money to stay independent if they like. If the ACC loses the Carolina schools and/or the football powerhouses, the league will just become the Big East Part II. Or (I think more likely) it will cease to exist.

Duke and Wake could join the Catholic 7... and drag UConn and Cincy with them. Imagine that hoops conference for a sec, with the Catholic 7, Butler, Xavier, and those four.

Wonder if they'd consider FCS? xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Temple better have something in mind or the entire athletic department is in big, big trouble. If we lose ties with Cincy and Uconn we're cooked.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Temple better have something in mind or the entire athletic department is in big, big trouble. If we lose ties with Cincy and Uconn we're cooked.

I know - reclassify to FCS in football, attempt to join the Catholic 7, and join the CAA in football... xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I know - reclassify to FCS in football, attempt to join the Catholic 7, and join the CAA in football... xlolx

I'm starting to believe the best option might be to drop the football program. The university has to do everything possible to protect basketball.

Our lease with the Eagles/Linc expires in 2016 iirc. If we're in a middling FBS conference averaging 13k a game I have to believe someone will be in our administrations ear suggesting we take a hike.

It would not shock me if Penn is the only Philly school playing football 5 years from now.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm starting to believe the best option might be to drop the football program. The university has to do everything possible to protect basketball.

How is a mediocre athletic program "protecting" basketball? Basketball does not need to be protected at these schools--in some cases, they are overfunded and underperform.

Or is the assumption that a good football team and a good basketball team is mutually exclusive?

Ask the Stanford fans at the Rose Bowl today.

Ask a nine win Vanderbilt team after they won their bowl.

Ask Northwestern, now 10-3.

[Babar]

How is a mediocre athletic program "protecting" basketball? Basketball does not need to be protected at these schools--in some cases, they are overfunded and underperform.

Or is the assumption that a good football team and a good basketball team is mutually exclusive?

Ask the Stanford fans at the Rose Bowl today.

Ask a nine win Vanderbilt team after they won their bowl.

Ask Northwestern, now 10-3.

I think he means that Temple's football program might pull the school into a sub-optimal basketball conference. And I tend to agree. The Big East used to be superb, but what's left is much weaker, even with UConn and Cinci remaining. Joining the seven Catholic schools or the A-10 might make a better basketball home, long-term. Especially given that UConn and Cinci will bolt the BE the minute they get the chance.

All the schools you mention are wealthy schools in powerhouse, stable conferences that field consistently excellent football and basketball teams (and, of course, they are not the conferences suffering desertions.) These schools don't face Temple's choices.

[Lehigh'98]

I know - reclassify to FCS in football, attempt to join the Catholic 7, and join the CAA in football... xlolx

No one in D1-A is dropping to FCS. Not even UMass. I'm not sure if u are just messing around when u say this all the time or not, but its not happening.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

but that's only true for some kids. if you are looking for top talent that will play immediately, it might be true to an extent. but even with the number of fbs programs that have been out there, the talent level at fcs has remained the same. there are still kids looking for a good diploma, some want playing time that they won't get at fbs, or that don't get the position they want at fbs. it'll impact somewhat, but not to the extent that everyone thinks. it's about getting the talent needed for the program that fit in with what the school is.

i personally think this is more of a problem for the public schools that are kind of locked in the a particular state or region first. app going fbs and uncc at fbs means there are more scholarships available for kids staying in the state. has fcs seen a dramatic recruiting problem after marshall, wku, usa, troy, mtsu went fbs?

The talent level in FCS has dropped since the 80's and 90's mostly because MAC, Sun Belt, CUSA, and a couple MW schools are what I-AA used to be and they now get some players that the left-behind schools used to get.

I know Middle Tennessee will be hurt a lot as they have over 30 Georgia kids on their roster.

Furman got knocked off their "throne" shortly after GSU started football and hasn't been the same since. App, Ga Southern, Ga State, and Charlotte being FBS will impact recruiting in the Southeast as well as the Yankee "poachers" from non-AQ conferences. ODU has already affected CAA recruiting and a JMU move up will hurt even more.

The FCS schools in the MVC and Big Sky will have a bit more advantage.

[citdog]

The talent level in FCS has dropped since the 80's and 90's.
.


Cliff in the discussion board I usually respect your opinion but the above is just FALSE.

[Saint3333]

The talent level may actually be better but the level of athlete at the FBS level has increased as much or more. It is all relative. Adding more scholarships at the FBS level does impact the level of athlete FCS programs will be able to attract, that is just simple math.

[citdog]

The talent level may actually be better but the level of athlete at the FBS level has increased as much or more. It is all relative. Adding more scholarships at the FBS level does impact the level of athlete FCS programs will be able to attract, that is just simple math.

in a ZERO POPULATION GROWTH SOYLENT GREEN type scenario I guess you'd be right.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That was my point Babar.

I don't want football to drag the basketball program into a "bad" conference.

I was perfectly content with the MAC/A10 arrangement but understood leaving for the BE last March. Had the 2012 version for football stayed together I would have been happy. I certainly believe we could have drawn 35-40k for a big game against Rutgers, Louisville, Cincy etc. At the same time, I understand that a poor season would produce some ugly attendance number, 15-25k depending on the opponent. That's why no matter what our conference affiliation is, we need to schedule at least one big time OOC game. Thankfully, the Linc provides us the opportunity to get Penn State, and in a couple years, Notre Dame.

The only lower level conference I'm interested in is the MAC. It's got a solid niche in FBS that works.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Cliff in the discussion board I usually respect your opinion but the above is just FALSE.

It's a simple matter of math. Since the 80's, move-ups include 23 schools:

Boise St
Nevada
Idaho
Troy
Western Ky
Middle Tenn
Arkansas St
Louisiana-Monroe
Buffalo
UConn
Central Florida
Marshall
UMass
Texas State

New Programs to FBS include:
Florida Atlantic
Florida International
South Florida
South Alabama
UAB
Old Dominion
Charlotte
Ga State
Texas-San Antonio

Add new 25 FCS teams including DII move-ups:
Georgia Southern
Coastal Carolina
Liberty
Gardner-Webb
Presbyterian
Charleston Southern
Stony Brook
Cal-Poly
Sacramento St
Cal-Davis
Towson
ND St.
SD St.
ND
SD
N. Colorado
Samford
Wofford
Elon
Central Arkansas
All 9 schools in the NEC

That's roughly 52 new programs dipping into the talent pool. Account for population growth and account for a lot of kids having a D1 opportunity that would've been DII in the past and you've still got dilution.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Fordham moved to 1AA/FCS in 1989. They weren't prepared to compete in the PL and it showed in the results. Their first decade in the PL was a nightmare.

Georgetown went from D3 to FCS in 1993.

[UAalum72]

That's roughly 52 new programs dipping into the talent pool. Account for population growth and account for a lot of kids having a D1 opportunity that would've been DII in the past and you've still got dilution.
Account for programs that dropped football in the last 30 years - UoPacific, Wichita St., Northridge, Santa Clara, St. Mary's, Fullerton, Riverside, Long Beach, Boston U, Hofstra, Northeastern, UT-Arlington, East Tennessee , Morris Brown, how many others?

[fc97]

The talent level in FCS has dropped since the 80's and 90's mostly because MAC, Sun Belt, CUSA, and a couple MW schools are what I-AA used to be and they now get some players that the left-behind schools used to get.

I know Middle Tennessee will be hurt a lot as they have over 30 Georgia kids on their roster.

Furman got knocked off their "throne" shortly after GSU started football and hasn't been the same since. App, Ga Southern, Ga State, and Charlotte being FBS will impact recruiting in the Southeast as well as the Yankee "poachers" from non-AQ conferences. ODU has already affected CAA recruiting and a JMU move up will hurt even more.

The FCS schools in the MVC and Big Sky will have a bit more advantage.

you're missing my point. what i'm saying is that it isn't just diluting the talent pool, it's going to affect everyone. app and gsu are going to have to recruit head to head against schools like ecu, mtsu, uncc, georgia state, acc, sun belt, cusa and sec schools for instance. that is going to dilute the fbs talent pool right there, to an extent. that will trickle down somewhat to fcs. simple math states that more scholarships means more kids at fbs schools. between jmu, odu, app, gsu, ga state, liberty, uncc and jax state that is a net increase of 239, but a loss of partials that will end up at the fcs schools. but, to recruit out of state kids at the state schools has a net negative on all the above, except liberty. so, depending on how schools do this, this could affect in-state kids more than out of state kids.

now hang with me here. what i'm saying is that this, this is going to affect the local public schools first. western carolina, a&t, central, valdosta, w georgia, n alabama and so on. why? because, the same budget constraints affect those schools in recruiting out of state. there are rules around out of state scholarships and how it is budgeted for the athletic department compared to in-state. and number of schools moving up to fcs or to fbs is going to affect the prime recruiting area for the state schools.

the difference is, private schools can branch out because the scholarship costs for budgeting is the same for in-state vs out of state. so, you have a school like furman that recruits the south. well their prime recruiting area is now seeing much more competition. that's fine, that means the coaching staff needs to start recruiting in areas where the better athletes aren't being recruited, and that may mean heading to the northeast, midwest, plains and northwest. under lembo, elon was already forced to do that, and each year since lembo and into swepson, we've seen the number of local kids fall on the elon roster. it's a survival of the fittest thing. but the problem is, for fcs public schools that can't afford lots of out of state scholarship budgeting, this could get dicey.

which is why i'm saying it will balance itself out. even a roster of 85 is going to have kids on a bench that don't want to be, and they'll still go fcs. kids like hudgins, riddle, mellette and so on. the increase in fbs schools draws from the fcs pool, but it always has. which means that overall, the fcs talent is going to stay on par with each other. and there are still programs in trouble which will probably force more schools to consider dropping football.

[fc97]

It's a simple matter of math. Since the 80's, move-ups include 23 schools:

Boise St
Nevada
Idaho
Troy
Western Ky
Middle Tenn
Arkansas St
Louisiana-Monroe
Buffalo
UConn
Central Florida
Marshall
UMass
Texas State

New Programs to FBS include:
Florida Atlantic
Florida International
South Florida
South Alabama
UAB
Old Dominion
Charlotte
Ga State
Texas-San Antonio

Add new 25 FCS teams including DII move-ups:
Georgia Southern
Coastal Carolina
Liberty
Gardner-Webb
Presbyterian
Charleston Southern
Stony Brook
Cal-Poly
Sacramento St
Cal-Davis
Towson
ND St.
SD St.
ND
SD
N. Colorado
Samford
Wofford
Elon
Central Arkansas
All 9 schools in the NEC

That's roughly 52 new programs dipping into the talent pool. Account for population growth and account for a lot of kids having a D1 opportunity that would've been DII in the past and you've still got dilution.

but you also aren't accounting for the dropped programs or programs that relegated themselves to lower divisions.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Account for programs that dropped football in the last 30 years - UoPacific, Wichita St., Northridge, Santa Clara, St. Mary's, Fullerton, Riverside, Long Beach, Boston U, Hofstra, Northeastern, UT-Arlington, East Tennessee , Morris Brown, how many others?


St. John's, La Salle, Canisius, Siena and Iona....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The talent level in FCS has dropped since the 80's and 90's mostly because MAC, Sun Belt, CUSA, and a couple MW schools are what I-AA used to be and they now get some players that the left-behind schools used to get.

I know Middle Tennessee will be hurt a lot as they have over 30 Georgia kids on their roster.

Furman got knocked off their "throne" shortly after GSU started football and hasn't been the same since. App, Ga Southern, Ga State, and Charlotte being FBS will impact recruiting in the Southeast as well as the Yankee "poachers" from non-AQ conferences. ODU has already affected CAA recruiting and a JMU move up will hurt even more.

The FCS schools in the MVC and Big Sky will have a bit more advantage.

Current NFL Pros:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/college/_/letter/n

Northern Illinois
PLAYER TEAM POSITION
Larry English San Diego Chargers Linebacker
Doug Free Dallas Cowboys Offensive Tackle
Nathan Palmer Indianapolis Colts Wide Receiver
Michael Turner Atlanta Falcons Running Back
Scott Wedige Arizona Cardinals Offensive Lineman
Tracy Wilson Tennessee Titans Defensive Back

Northern Iowa
PLAYER TEAM POSITION
L.J. Fort Cleveland Browns Linebacker
Austin Howard New York Jets Offensive Tackle
Brad Meester Jacksonville Jaguars Center
Chad Rinehart Buffalo Bills Guard

6 Northern Illinois NFL players vs. 4 from Northern Iowa. You can't tell me that the talent level in FCS is so much worse because all of UNI's best recruits are going for MACtion over the Panthers. Matter of fact, FCS teams upset MAC teams all the time, completely upending this bogus theory.

[DFW HOYA]

but you also aren't accounting for the dropped programs or programs that relegated themselves to lower divisions.

The only relegated programs I can think of are Winston-Salem State (D-II) and Birmingham Southern (D-III). Any others out there?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

FAMU I think was planning a FBS transition but couldn't complete it. Not sure if that "counts".

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The dropped programs is something I didn't consider and that negates some of the new programs. The NFL stats are irrelevant IMO. Ga Southern has been extremely successful and I can count on one hand the number of NFL players in 30 years. NFL football is a different animal than college football and size is very important.

I agree about the private schools being less affected and that fact helps me rephrase my real point:

I-AA/FCS has lost a lot of good schools to the lower tier of FBS. From a competitive point of view, I think we'll all agree that there should be at least 4 tiers of D1 college football made up of most of the Big 5 Conference schools at the top; Group of 5 and Top FCS in Second Tier; Middle-of-the-pack FCS Third Tier; Ivy, non-scholly, HBC Fourth Tier.

One way to save FCS would've been to implement a proposal shot down by the Ivies in the 1990's which would've classified three tiers with minimum scholarship requirements in each tier. Championship Tier 2 would've been the lower-tier FBS and upper-tier FCS.

[UAalum72]

I-AA/FCS has lost a lot of good schools to the lower tier of FBS. From a competitive point of view, I think we'll all agree that there should be at least 4 tiers of D1 college football made up of most of the Big 5 Conference schools at the top; Group of 5 and Top FCS in Second Tier; Middle-of-the-pack FCS Third Tier; Ivy, non-scholly, HBC Fourth Tier.

One way to save FCS would've been to implement a proposal shot down by the Ivies in the 1990's which would've classified three tiers with minimum scholarship requirements in each tier. Championship Tier 2 would've been the lower-tier FBS and upper-tier FCS.
No, I don't think we'll all agree on that - that four tiers are necessary, or that the HBCUs would be in the lowest tier. And if you think the Ivies had the power to shoot down a three-tier proposal, what makes you think they'd go for four?

[DFW HOYA]

One way to save FCS would've been to implement a proposal shot down by the Ivies in the 1990's which would've classified three tiers with minimum scholarship requirements in each tier. Championship Tier 2 would've been the lower-tier FBS and upper-tier FCS.

Not quite. That was not defeated by the Ivies but by Division II. They were worried about too many of their schools moving up as a result.

[walliver]

The dropped programs is something I didn't consider and that negates some of the new programs. The NFL stats are irrelevant IMO. Ga Southern has been extremely successful and I can count on one hand the number of NFL players in 30 years. NFL football is a different animal than college football and size is very important.

I agree about the private schools being less affected and that fact helps me rephrase my real point:

I-AA/FCS has lost a lot of good schools to the lower tier of FBS. From a competitive point of view, I think we'll all agree that there should be at least 4 tiers of D1 college football made up of most of the Big 5 Conference schools at the top; Group of 5 and Top FCS in Second Tier; Middle-of-the-pack FCS Third Tier; Ivy, non-scholly, HBC Fourth Tier.

One way to save FCS would've been to implement a proposal shot down by the Ivies in the 1990's which would've classified three tiers with minimum scholarship requirements in each tier. Championship Tier 2 would've been the lower-tier FBS and upper-tier FCS.

The answer is consolidation, not fragmentation. There should be one D-I. Teams looking to compete for a NCAA championship can limit scholarships to 63. Other schools can give 85 scholarships and do whatever they want in the postseason.

Let's face it, if you aren't in the top division you won't be considered "big time".

[Babar]

University of Nebraska-Omaha is another.

The universities that are dropping programs don't really offset the schools adding programs, because none of the dropped programs are FBS, and many are D2 or D3. If you pull demand at the bottom end of the housing market while increasing it at the top, you don't balance out--you still wind up with gentrification.

[DFW HOYA]

More have joined than left in the past decade, especially when you take the MAAC out of the equation.

In:
2002: Florida International
2003: Coastal Carolina, Southeastern Louisiana
2008: Campbell
2009: Incarnate Word, Old Dominion
2010: Georgia State, Lamar, South Alabama
2011: UTSA
2013: Mercer, Stetson

Out:
2003: East Tennessee, St. Mary's, Siena
2006: St. Peter's
2007: La Salle
2008: Iona
2009: Hofstra, Northeastern

[Lehigh Football Nation]

More have joined than left in the past decade, especially when you take the MAAC out of the equation.

In:
2002: Florida International
2003: Coastal Carolina, Southeastern Louisiana
2008: Campbell
2009: Incarnate Word, Old Dominion
2010: Georgia State, Lamar, South Alabama
2011: UTSA
2013: Mercer, Stetson

Out:
2003: East Tennessee, St. Mary's, Siena
2006: St. Peter's
2007: La Salle
2008: Iona
2009: Hofstra, Northeastern

12 teams south of the Mason/Dizon line added football. But only one team south of the Mason/Dixon line has dropped, along with one West Coast team (St. Mary's) and six Northeastern schools.

[danefan]

Don't forget that the addition of scholarships to the NEC and the moves up of Albany and SBU are basically adding teams to FCS that were only there in name before.

The NEC teams of the late 90's early 2000's were operating somewhere in between the DII, DIII and FCS world just as the Pioneer teams are now.

[fc97]

Don't forget that the addition of scholarships to the NEC and the moves up of Albany and SBU are basically adding teams to FCS that were only there in name before.

The NEC teams of the late 90's early 2000's were operating somewhere in between the DII, DIII and FCS world just as the Pioneer teams are now.

yes, but the NEC is still operating at a d-ii level of scholarships.

[danefan]

yes, but the NEC is still operating at a d-ii level of scholarships.

Max is 40 now which is above the DII level. Not by much, but still above.

And they play all DI games (sub-DI games are not allowed by the league) and against most of the top-level FCS competition. They are also recruiting FBS transfers from BCS programs and are competing against the top of the nation for some FCS recruits.

I thoguht the discussion was really about a diluted recruit pool.....the NEC was not a factor in FCS recruiting before the last 5 years (except in limited form against the Patriot League). They most certainly are now.

[fc97]

I agree about the private schools being less affected and that fact helps me rephrase my real point:

and that really only means anything if the private schools are willing to adapt. recruiting budgets will increase with that.


I-AA/FCS has lost a lot of good schools to the lower tier of FBS. From a competitive point of view, I think we'll all agree that there should be at least 4 tiers of D1 college football made up of most of the Big 5 Conference schools at the top; Group of 5 and Top FCS in Second Tier; Middle-of-the-pack FCS Third Tier; Ivy, non-scholly, HBC Fourth Tier.

and i think that is you ultimate problem. no one at fbs wants to be relegated to tier 2, especially when that tier 2 is going to involve schools that they left behind. for instance, will gsu or app fans be happy that after all the money spent, elon, samford, furman and wofford among others would be again in their tier simply because they can foot the bill? because if you're talking the top fcs, you are talking socon even without app and gsu, caa, big sky, mvfc, southland. and then, the waters are muddy for what is third tier? what's the stipulation? everything is without definition and even with it, every school fails to fall into it cut and dry. take kent st and akron types that have one good year out of a decade of seasons.

it's just simply not that simple. you going to see a split of BCS 5 vs everyone else. where everyone else goes, no one will care simply because the money isn't there. whether it's one further level or 3.

[fc97]

Max is 40 now which is above the DII level. Not by much, but still above.

And they play all DI games (sub-DI games are not allowed by the league) and against most of the top-level FCS competition. They are also recruiting FBS transfers from BCS programs and are competing against the top of the nation for some FCS recruits.

I thoguht the discussion was really about a diluted recruit pool.....the NEC was not a factor in FCS recruiting before the last 5 years (except in limited form against the Patriot League). They most certainly are now.

it is about recruit pool. i was more going on, lots of coaches can use that limit as a recruiting advantage. like, come play at elon, we are fully funded and because of that aren't playing a man down like in the northeast. but, you may be right. the nec makes it more competitive for recruiting, but, without hofstra and northeastern's 63, its almost a relative net wash.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

No, I don't think we'll all agree on that - that four tiers are necessary, or that the HBCUs would be in the lowest tier. And if you think the Ivies had the power to shoot down a three-tier proposal, what makes you think they'd go for four?

There hasn't been an HBCU capable of winning against everyone in FCS in at least 25 years. Not only are we dealing with new generations of kids who are far removed from the segregation that created those schools, but the non-HBCU's are generally better schools with better facilities.

The Ivies don't want to be embarrassed by getting spanked by Directional/City U so they'll keep playing themselves and their Yankee counterparts who are in D1 primarily for basketball.

The Directional/City U's, Small-Population-State U's, and a few Privates would make a great 2nd Tier in terms of competition.

Schools like Miss St, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Northwestern, Illinois, Purdue and a handful out West are just lucky to be in the conferences they're in, but they're not really better on the field than many of the above 2nd Tier schools.

Because this thing is all about money, the small market schools have no choice but to take advantage of the "free advertising" of Sports Center and Bowls to increase their market share. Winning the FCS National Championship won't help much with market share after a certain point. We've got at least four examples of proof at Georgia Southern (1985-86 helped get us started).

[fc97]

The only relegated programs I can think of are Winston-Salem State (D-II) and Birmingham Southern (D-III). Any others out there?

armstrong st and augusta st did it too. but, i really don't remember too many others. and only wssu at football.

[Babar]

The Directional/City U's, Small-Population-State U's, and a few Privates would make a great 2nd Tier in terms of competition.

Schools like Miss St, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Northwestern, Illinois, Purdue and a handful out West are just lucky to be in the conferences they're in, but they're not really better on the field than many of the above 2nd Tier schools.

Because this thing is all about money, the small market schools have no choice but to take advantage of the "free advertising" of Sports Center and Bowls to increase their market share. Winning the FCS National Championship won't help much with market share after a certain point. We've got at least four examples of proof at Georgia Southern (1985-86 helped get us started).

I agree that there are schools that would be wise to set their sights on 2nd tier status, but these aren't those.

The historical accidents that fixed their conference affiliations notwithstanding, these are schools that can essentially buy their way into tier 1 in any situation except the hypothetical one in which the very top of FBS goes semi-professional. Even then, it wouldn't be the money holding them back. They're wealthy and private, or public with huge alumni bases and near-guaranteed state support. Not to mention that they're all basically running profitable programs right now (except WF, I think.)

Even if they weren't getting huge paychecks from their conferences, they get way more out of associating themselves with the B1G, SEC, and ACC than they would by playing easier competition at the MAC or CAA level. If they think football is a front porch to the university (a metaphor I hate) they own advantages right now they would be crazy to give up.

[Saint3333]

in a ZERO POPULATION GROWTH SOYLENT GREEN type scenario I guess you'd be right.

Population growth doesn't matter in a given year. There are lots of varibles and FCS schools do beat out FBS programs for kids, but let's keep it simple. If there are 2000 athletes available and 1000 FBS grants in 2012, as soon as you add 50 more FBS scholarships in 2013 you go from recruiting athlete #1001 to 1051.

[citdog]

Population growth doesn't matter in a given year. There are lots of varibles and FCS schools do beat out FBS programs for kids, but let's keep it simple. If there are 2000 athletes available and 1000 FBS grants in 2012, as soon as you add 50 more FBS scholarships in 2013 you go from recruiting athlete #1001 to 1051.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE

[DFW HOYA]

The Ivies don't want to be embarrassed by getting spanked by Directional/City U so they'll keep playing themselves and their Yankee counterparts who are in D1 primarily for basketball.

Very few schools "are in D1 primarily for basketball". Either they were always in Division I or they upgraded for the benefits across all sports. And it's not like these schools would seek Division II if it weren't for basketball.

[citdog]

Very few schools "are in D1 primarily for basketball". Either they were always in Division I or they upgraded for the benefits across all sports. And it's not like these schools would seek Division II if it weren't for basketball.

look no further than YOUR program Hoya

[DFW HOYA]

look no further than YOUR program Hoya

I do. Georgetown has been in Division I since it joined the NCAA in the early 1920's. It has never considered a scenario moving into the small college ranks even when basketball was considered a weak program. If basketball went away tomorrow, it's not joining Division II.

Fact: from 1947-1972, Georgetown ranked last among a group of 32 Division I independents in total wins. It was one of two schools (Loyola-New Orleans being the other, and they dropped out of D-I soon thereafter) without a single postseason win during that time, and from 1944 to 1974 never made the NCAA and made the NIT just twice.

[walliver]

Very few schools "are in D1 primarily for basketball". Either they were always in Division I or they upgraded for the benefits across all sports. And it's not like these schools would seek Division II if it weren't for basketball.

Athletic decisions at most schools are based on football and/or basketball. In some regions hockey or lacrosse is a big deal. "Olympic" sports and baseball rarely drove alignment decisions.

[citdog]

I do. Georgetown has been in Division I since it joined the NCAA in the early 1920's. It has never considered a scenario moving into the small college ranks even when basketball was considered a weak program. If basketball went away tomorrow, it's not joining Division II.

Fact: from 1947-1972, Georgetown ranked last among a group of 32 Division I independents in total wins. It was one of two schools (Loyola-New Orleans being the other, and they dropped out of D-I soon thereafter) without a single postseason win during that time, and from 1944 to 1974 never made the NCAA and made the NIT just twice.


Point? The Citadel has NEVER, repeat, NEVER been to the NCAA basketball tourney and has ALWAYS played at the highest level. If the dayton rule didn't exist you'd be division III in football. which, in fact, you are already.

[DFW HOYA]

Point? The Citadel has NEVER, repeat, NEVER been to the NCAA basketball tourney and has ALWAYS played at the highest level. If the dayton rule didn't exist you'd be division III in football. which, in fact, you are already.

Clearly, you don't understand the competitive and financial differences betwen Division III and the Patriot League.

[Laker]

Point? The Citadel has NEVER, repeat, NEVER been to the NCAA basketball tourney and has ALWAYS played at the highest level.

Interesting article about this. Army, Citadel, Northwestern, St. Francis and William & Mary are the "Forgotten Five".

http://fossworld.com/college/schools-that-have-never-made-the-ncaa-tournament-the-2012-edition.htm

[citdog]

Clearly, you don't understand the competitive and financial differences betwen Division III and the Patriot League.


clearly I understand that you give as many schollys as Div III does and that you are part of the problem in this subdivision.

[BisonFan02]

xpopcornx

[DFW HOYA]

clearly I understand that you give as many schollys as Div III does and that you are part of the problem in this subdivision.

Perhaps you assume too much, or in this case, too little.

1. Division III football does not allow financial aid awards of any kind based on athletic talent. Georgetown allows institutional buyouts of loan and work-study components (also called equivalencies) based on playing football. The NCAA considers "equivalencies" comparable to scholarships--Georgetown has less than 63 equivalencies but it does offer some number which has been variously guessed from 5-15.

2. Division III schools are not allowed to offer scholarships. Georgetown is allowed to offer scholarships but does not have the budget to fully do so. Adding three or four athletic scholarships may satisfy your definition of a I-AA team but it would be largely insignificant from a competitive perspective.

3. Division III football relies on part-time assistant coaches (in its years in Div. III, Georgetown even had a part-time head coach.) Georgetown has 10 full time assistants in the Patriot League.

4. Division III football teams run at an annual budget of $150-$400K per year. Georgetown's budget in the Patriot League, while still meager, is $1.6 million, comparable to teams in the Ivy League and Northeast Conference, but far less than the PL, which along with the CAA generally has the highest budgets in the subdivision.

5. Division III schools, in nearly all cases, do not schedule games with opponents outside the division. Georgetown has not played any football teams below Division I since the 1995 season.

6. 67% of Division III institutions have enrollments under 2,000. At nearly 14,000 total enrolled, Georgetown is larger than any Division III school playing football by almost three times, excepting the Wisconsin public schools.

Can it do better? Yes. Is it a Division III program? No, and that's all that needs to be said about it.

[citdog]

Perhaps you assume too much, or in this case, too little.

1. Division III football does not allow financial aid awards of any kind based on athletic talent. Georgetown allows institutional buyouts of loan and work-study components (also called equivalencies) based on playing football. The NCAA considers "equivalencies" comparable to scholarships--Georgetown has less than 63 equivalencies but it does offer some number which has been variously guessed from 5-15.

2. Division III schools are not allowed to offer scholarships. Georgetown is allowed to offer scholarships but does not have the budget to fully do so. Adding three or four athletic scholarships may satisfy your definition of a I-AA team but it would be largely insignificant from a competitive perspective.

3. Division III football relies on part-time assistant coaches (in its years in Div. III, Georgetown even had a part-time head coach.) Georgetown has 10 full time assistants in the Patriot League.

4. Division III football teams run at an annual budget of $150-$400K per year. Georgetown's budget in the Patriot League, while still meager, is $1.6 million, comparable to teams in the Ivy League and Northeast Conference, but far less than the PL, which along with the CAA generally has the highest budgets in the subdivision.

5. Division III schools, in nearly all cases, do not schedule games with opponents outside the division. Georgetown has not played any football teams below Division I since the 1995 season.

6. 67% of Division III institutions have enrollments under 2,000. At nearly 14,000 total enrolled, Georgetown is larger than any Division III school playing football by almost three times, excepting the Wisconsin public schools.

Can it do better? Yes. Is it a Division III program? No, and that's all that needs to be said about it.


1. VARIOUSLY GUESSED?

2. The Catholic Church is not hurting for money. Tell them to sell a couple of Christ Pubes and give y'all a hand.

3. Cool Story BRO!

4. More Pubes

5. Best thing I've heard lately about Georgetown Football.

6. Raise fees on the students. Or pubes......either way....

[Babar]

1. VARIOUSLY GUESSED?

2. The Catholic Church....

blah, blah, blah...

You just like picking fights, huh?

[citdog]

You just like picking fights, huh?

I'm Southern......it's what we do!


still think it's odd to hear gtown talk about being poor.

[MplsBison]

Perhaps you assume too much, or in this case, too little.

1. Division III football does not allow financial aid awards of any kind based on athletic talent. Georgetown allows institutional buyouts of loan and work-study components (also called equivalencies) based on playing football. The NCAA considers "equivalencies" comparable to scholarships--Georgetown has less than 63 equivalencies but it does offer some number which has been variously guessed from 5-15.

2. Division III schools are not allowed to offer scholarships. Georgetown is allowed to offer scholarships but does not have the budget to fully do so. Adding three or four athletic scholarships may satisfy your definition of a I-AA team but it would be largely insignificant from a competitive perspective.

3. Division III football relies on part-time assistant coaches (in its years in Div. III, Georgetown even had a part-time head coach.) Georgetown has 10 full time assistants in the Patriot League.

4. Division III football teams run at an annual budget of $150-$400K per year. Georgetown's budget in the Patriot League, while still meager, is $1.6 million, comparable to teams in the Ivy League and Northeast Conference, but far less than the PL, which along with the CAA generally has the highest budgets in the subdivision.

5. Division III schools, in nearly all cases, do not schedule games with opponents outside the division. Georgetown has not played any football teams below Division I since the 1995 season.

6. 67% of Division III institutions have enrollments under 2,000. At nearly 14,000 total enrolled, Georgetown is larger than any Division III school playing football by almost three times, excepting the Wisconsin public schools.

Can it do better? Yes. Is it a Division III program? No, and that's all that needs to be said about it.

Great post!

One minor, insignificant correction: the NCAA caps the number of full time assistants to something like 7 in I-AA and 9 in I-A. Not 100% sure on those numbers, but I think that's correct. The other guys may be GA's or reduced-compensation positions.

[fc97]

Great post!

One minor, insignificant correction: the NCAA caps the number of full time assistants to something like 7 in I-AA and 9 in I-A. Not 100% sure on those numbers, but I think that's correct. The other guys may be GA's or reduced-compensation positions.

that is correct. if you also note other differences. fbs requires 16 sports be offered of which a minimum of 6 are for men and 8 are for women where in fcs it is 14 sports of which 6 are for men and 7 are for women. if the school offers more than the minimum, it must be followed by title ix guidelines. fcs schools must offer 50% of scholarships for all sports except football on average or meet a funding minimum, scholarships can be broken into partials split among kids. where fbs requires 90% of the scholarships for football (no partials) and offer 200 total other scholarships or meet a larger minimum scholarship funding mark. along with the attendance rule for football in fbs.

[ASUMountaineer]

You just like picking fights, huh?

He is a southern sympathizer!


















I am too, sort of......
























xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx xlolxxlolxxlolx