Who are the D-II, D-III and NAIA moveups???

[gophoenix]

Was trying to compile a list of the football programs that voluntarily moved up from a lower division to current I-AA. I'm not counting the D-III programs forced up in like 1993 (ie Davidson, et al) or already D-I schools that formed teams after they were here (ie Char Southern, Coastal, Jacksonville), but true moveups....

Here's what I have:
14524.23 in reply to 14524.19

Drawing 7000 to a I-AA game compared to the I-AA max average is much more comparable than a school in I-A averaging 12k a game when compared to 102k for someone like Michigan.

I am right there with you on scholarships, which is why I am glas the playoffs were changed so that a conference has to average no less that 50 scholarships to get an automatic bid (curious to see how that affects the MEAC now with A&M down and schools like Norfolk St at 40 or so).

What I really wonder about this is how this affects the Pioneer, MAAC and NEC. They don't meet the 50 scholarships to get a bid, and not sure if that would even get them into the playoffs. So if they aren't in contention, does that automatically put them in the bowl division since they play that Non-scholarship bowl? What about the SWAC since their championship is like a bowl? What about the Ivy who continues to remain seperate? Do all the conference schools have to participate in either the bowl or playoff division or can each school choose? There are just too many questions that still remain unanswered.

Here are the moveups:
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Northern Colorado
UC-Davis
Elon
Gardner-Webb
Liberty
Presbyterian
Wofford
Norfolk St
Hampton
Delware St
Jacksonville St
Cal Poly
Sacramento St
Hofstra
Portland State
Sam Houston State
Samford
Southern Utah
Stephen F Austin
SUNY-Albany
SUNY-Stony Brook
UTM
Towson
Winston-Salem State
Savannah State
Sacred Heart
Central Arkansas
Eastern Washington

Did I leave anyone off (updating the list as the thread goes on)

[DFW HOYA]

Dayton was also moved up in the "class of 1993."

Almsot all of the MEAC and SWAC were at one time Div. II but were I-AA when the subdivision was formed.

[89Hen]

Delaware and Youngstown were DII after I-AA formed in 1978.

[gophoenix]

Yeah, but most of those schools (delaware, meac, and so on) were DII like UTC and forced to move up for the same reasons..... I-AA formed in 1978, but didn't the pieces not fall into place until 1982?

[Go...gate]

Fordham went from DIII to DI-AA in 1988 and played their first I-AA season in 1989.

[Ronbo]

You missed the U. Central Arkansas.

[UAalum72]

Sacred Heart began football as a Division III university in 1991, became Division II in 1993, and Division I in 1999.

[henfan]

Yeah, but most of those schools (delaware, meac, and so on) were DII like UTC and forced to move up for the same reasons..... I-AA formed in 1978, but didn't the pieces not fall into place until 1982?

Correction: Delaware wasn't forced to move to I-AA in 1980. They were a D-II independent and had the choice to reclassify or stay in D-II.

Most of UD's athletic competition had classified as D-I by 1978, so it just made sense for Delaware to do the same.

[Purple Pride]

You missed the U. Central Arkansas.

Thanks Ronbo.

2006 UCA Football Schedule

August 31 HENDERSON ST. (Little Rock) 7 pm - CAPITAL CITY CLASSIC
September 9th @ Illinois State 6:30 pm
September 16 MISSOURI STATE 6 pm - HALL OF FAME WEEKEND
September 23 @ Stephen F. Austin 6 pm
September 30 UNIV. SOUTH DAKOTA 1 pm - FAMILY DAY
October 7th @ South Dakota State 7 pm
October 14 @ UC Davis 3 pm
October 19 (THURS) @ Sam Houston St. 2 pm
November 4 SOUTHERN ARKANSAS 6 pm - HOMECOMING
November 11 AUGUSTANA COLLEGE 1 pm
November 18 @ Georgia Southern 12 pm

[grizbeer]

Eastern Washington moved up in 1984 - not sure if they were forced in any way.

[AmsterBison]

Here's what I have (thought it might be interesting to see it in chronological order). You'll have to decide which ones were forced up or not. Most of these schools came up from DII though so I'm not sure what distinction gophoenix is trying to make. I've left off those schools that are no longer in DI-AA (e.g. Troy State, Marshall, etc).

2006: Central Arkansas
2005:
2004: North Dakota State, South Dakota State
2003: Coastal Carolina, Northern Colorado, UC Davis
2002: Gardner-Webb
2001: Savannah State
2000:
1999: Alabama A&M, Elon, Sacred Heart, SUNY-Albany, SUNY-Stony Brook
1998: Arkansas-Pine Bluff, Jacksonville (FL)
1997: La Salle, Norfolk State, Wofford
1996:
1995: Hampton, Jacksonville State
1994: Cal Poly-SLO, Monmouth (NJ)
1993: Butler, Central Connecticut State, Charleston Southern, Dayton, Duquesne, Georgetown (DC), Hofstra, Iona, Marist, Sacramento State, San Diego, Southern Utah, St. Francis (PA), St. Peters, Valparaiso, Wagner
1992: Tennessee-Martin
1991:
1990: SE Missouri State
1989: Fordham, Liberty, Samford
1988:
1987: Towson, Villanova
1986: Morgan State, Sam Houston State, Stephen F Austin
1985:
1984: Eastern Washington, Georgia Southern, Texas State - San Marcos
1983:
1982: Alabama State, Appalachian State, Brown, Chattanooga, Colgate, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Furman, Harvard, Holy Cross, Illinois State, Indiana State, McNeese State, Missouri State, Pennsylvania, Princeton, Richmond, Southern Illinois, The Citadel, VMI, Western Carolina, William & Mary, Yale
1981: Drake, Eastern Illinois, Northern Iowa, Tennessee State, Western Illinois, Youngstown State
1980: Bethune-Cookman, Delaware, James Madison, Mississippi Valley State, Nicholls State, Prairie View A&M, Southeastern LA
1979: Florida A&M
1978: Alcorn State, Austin Peay, Bucknell, Davidson, Delaware State, Eastern Kentucky, Grambling State, Howard, Idaho State, Jackson State, Lafayette College, Lehigh, Maine, Massachusetts, Montana, Montana State, Morehead State, Murray State, New Hampshire, North Carolina A&T, Northeastern, Northern Arizona, Northwestern State (LA), Portland State, Rhode Island, South Carolina State, Southern, Tennessee Tech, Texas Southern, Weber State, Western Kentucky

[DaBears]

Are there any current I-AA schools that moved up from NAIA? Out of all the D-II's that have moved to I-AA, it seems that at least a few of them had to have been NAIA at some point.

[DaBears]

Another question:

How many teams have left I-AA to either move up or down?

[AmsterBison]

I've got no idea about NAIA teams beyond Ark-Pine Bluff, Liberty, and Sam Houston State (edit: forgot about Elon and Presbyterian - it looks like App State was in the NAIA at one time, but that was before DI/DII/DIII so I'm not sure that's the type of team you are after).

There are 36 former DI-AA programs according to last year's NCAA record book. Of those, it looks like 11 dropped football, 1 went to DII (West Texas A&M), and 24 went to DI-A.

[aceinthehole]

1999: Albany, Sacred Heart, and Stony Brook - moved entire athletic departments, including football, from DII to DI.

1994: Monmouth and Robert Morris - brand new football programs.

1993: Central Connecticut State, St. Francis (PA), and Wagner - required by NCAA to elevate football programs to Division I, to match the remainder of its athletic program.

[grizbeer]

Montana State, Northern Arizona and Eastern Washington were NAIA teams at one point. Here is a link to a web site that has lots of good historical information.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa_conf_index.php

[BEAR]

UCA was NAIA in the early 90s and moved to D2 not long after that...then onto I-AA, then onto NCAAFCS!!

[Go...gate]

Here's what I have (thought it might be interesting to see it in chronological order). You'll have to decide which ones were forced up or not. Most of these schools came up from DII though so I'm not sure what distinction gophoenix is trying to make. I've left off those schools that are no longer in DI-AA (e.g. Troy State, Marshall, etc).

2006: Central Arkansas
2005:
2004: North Dakota State, South Dakota State
2003: Coastal Carolina, Northern Colorado, UC Davis
2002: Gardner-Webb
2001: Savannah State
2000:
1999: Alabama A&M, Elon, Sacred Heart, SUNY-Albany, SUNY-Stony Brook
1998: Arkansas-Pine Bluff, Jacksonville (FL)
1997: La Salle, Norfolk State, Wofford
1996:
1995: Hampton, Jacksonville State
1994: Cal Poly-SLO, Monmouth (NJ)
1993: Butler, Central Connecticut State, Charleston Southern, Dayton, Duquesne, Georgetown (DC), Hofstra, Iona, Marist, Sacramento State, San Diego, Southern Utah, St. Francis (PA), St. Peters, Valparaiso, Wagner
1992: Tennessee-Martin
1991:
1990: SE Missouri State
1989: Fordham, Liberty, Samford
1988:
1987: Towson, Villanova
1986: Morgan State, Sam Houston State, Stephen F Austin
1985:
1984: Eastern Washington, Georgia Southern, Texas State - San Marcos
1983:
1982: Alabama State, Appalachian State, Brown, Chattanooga, Colgate, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Furman, Harvard, Holy Cross, Illinois State, Indiana State, McNeese State, Missouri State, Pennsylvania, Princeton, Richmond, Southern Illinois, The Citadel, VMI, Western Carolina, William & Mary, Yale
1981: Drake, Eastern Illinois, Northern Iowa, Tennessee State, Western Illinois, Youngstown State
1980: Bethune-Cookman, Delaware, James Madison, Mississippi Valley State, Nicholls State, Prairie View A&M, Southeastern LA
1979: Florida A&M
1978: Alcorn State, Austin Peay, Bucknell, Davidson, Delaware State, Eastern Kentucky, Grambling State, Howard, Idaho State, Jackson State, Lafayette College, Lehigh, Maine, Massachusetts, Montana, Montana State, Morehead State, Murray State, New Hampshire, North Carolina A&T, Northeastern, Northern Arizona, Northwestern State (LA), Portland State, Rhode Island, South Carolina State, Southern, Tennessee Tech, Texas Southern, Weber State, Western Kentucky

Did Richmond move up in 1982? I thought that it was 1986. I remember that both Colgate (1983, 1984) and Rutgers (1982, 1985) both touted their games against Richmond as against a I-A opponent and I believe that Rutgers still counts these two games against Richmond as I-A victories (they played again in '98 and this time, Rutgers' Media Guide identified UR as a I-AA school).

[Marcus Garvey]

1982: Alabama State, Appalachian State, Brown, Chattanooga, Colgate, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Furman, Harvard, Holy Cross, Illinois State, Indiana State, McNeese State, Missouri State, Pennsylvania, Princeton, Richmond, Southern Illinois, The Citadel, VMI, Western Carolina, William & Mary, Yale
1981: Drake, Eastern Illinois, Northern Iowa, Tennessee State, Western Illinois, Youngstown State

The entire "Class of '82" you listed was forced down from I-A to I-AA. Those schools were Division I before the split into I-A and I-AA, thus they were intially classifed as I-A.

[Marcus Garvey]

Did Richmond move up in 1982? I thought that it was 1986. I remember that both Colgate (1983, 1984) and Rutgers (1982, 1985) both touted their games against Richmond as against a I-A opponent and I believe that Rutgers still counts these two games against Richmond as I-A victories (they played again in '98 and this time, Rutgers' Media Guide identified UR as a I-AA school).

According to the official NCAA recordbook, Richmond was a meber of I-A from 1978-1981 only. they've been a member of I-AA since 1982.

[Go...gate]

According to the official NCAA recordbook, Richmond was a meber of I-A from 1978-1981 only. they've been a member of I-AA since 1982.

Thanks for the info! :)

[grizbeer]

The entire "Class of '82" you listed was forced down from I-A to I-AA. Those schools were Division I before the split into I-A and I-AA, thus they were intially classifed as I-A.
I'm not sure that is true - I think before I-AA you could be D-II in football, and D-I in basketball. The Big Sky teams are all listed as D-II before I-AA came along. Before that it was "small college football"

[walliver]

Are there any current I-AA schools that moved up from NAIA? Out of all the D-II's that have moved to I-AA, it seems that at least a few of them had to have been NAIA at some point.

Many (possibly most) of the southern schools with longstanding football programs who moved from D-II to D-I were probably in the NAIA at some point. Division II did not really gain a foothold in the much of the South until the late 1980's. When Wofford moved from NAIA to NCAA D-II in circa 1988, there were very few D-II schools located nearby.

[Marcus Garvey]

I'm not sure that is true - I think before I-AA you could be D-II in football, and D-I in basketball. The Big Sky teams are all listed as D-II before I-AA came along. Before that it was "small college football"

Most of those '82 schools listed were never DII. THe Southern Conference was DI, later I-A from '78-81 as was the Ivy League. Colgate and Holy Cross were Division I/I-A football independents prior to '82. Those two conferences plus HC and Colgate never spent a day at the DII level. They were always considered "Major College" (i.e., "University Divsion") prior to the NCAA's restructuring in 1973.

[gophoenix]

All of the moveups from 1978 to 1982 were "forced" moveups, and some up to 1984 were results of lost appeals to the NCAA (East Carolina won their appeal).

The distinction is that there are 4 types of schools in I-AA:
Lower Division moveups (where the entire athletic dept was moved up)
New programs for I-AA (from already DI schools)
D-III programs forced to move their football programs in the early nineties
Programs from the original I-AA formed from 1978-1982

I guess what I am getting at as lots of D-II moveups get a bad rap sometimes. But when you really list the D-II (and even D-III schools) that are now at 50+ scholarships for I-AA, then list is not nearly as a blemish as some think.

[aceinthehole]

All of the moveups from 1978 to 1982 were "forced" moveups, and some up to 1984 were results of lost appeals to the NCAA (East Carolina won their appeal).

The distinction is that there are 4 types of schools in I-AA:
Lower Division moveups (where the entire athletic dept was moved up)
New programs for I-AA (from already DI schools)
D-III programs forced to move their football programs in the early nineties
Programs from the original I-AA formed from 1978-1982

I guess what I am getting at as lots of D-II moveups get a bad rap sometimes. But when you really list the D-II (and even D-III schools) that are now at 50+ scholarships for I-AA, then list is not nearly as a blemish as some think.

To clairfy I would say - all lower division foootball teams (D-II or DIII) forced to move their football programs to match their D-I athletic program.

Although the D-III schools that made the move are now better known as "mid-majors" (Dayton, Wagner, San Diego, etc.) there was also a group of D-II schools that had to make the same move to I-AA (Butler, Sac State, Central Conn., Southern Utah, St. Mary's (CA), and Valpo).

One school, Santa Clara, droped football rather than move from D-II to I-AA after the 1992 season.

[gr8ness97]

wssu moved up in 2006 as well and i think we played NAIA at one pont and time

[AmsterBison]

I think it depends a bit on what you mean by "forced." I kind of think in this context it meant "Forced to go DI in order to keep basketball and other sports in DI." If that's the case, then Sac State, UNI, Central Connecticut, and Southern Utah weren't forced to move up - they had been in DII in basketball and everything for a while.

I can tell you one thing: North Dakota State wasn't forced into DI-AA - we wanted to go :)

[AmsterBison]

Sorry about missing Winston-Salem in my list... I didn't realize that 2005-06 was their exploratory year.

[gophoenix]

WSSU doesn't count until 2007, the same with Presbyterian... officially that is.
NC Central will count for 2008.

I am not trying to slight the non-scholarship schools. I respect that you play football while so many schools just wimp out when the could play it at this level. But really, the "playoff champiunship division" is a place that you don't belong since you don't meet the requirements to make it in and you guys have your bowl-like games.

I am not interested in who came to I-AA between 1978 and 1982, as that was the time when the NCAA was forming the subdivision and forcing the hand of school's a leagues at various points over that time span. I am also not interested in football programs that were D-II at that time that moved up to D-I with their basketball programs, as they fall into the same category. And I am not interested in the 1993 class of non-scholarship schools forced to move their D-III football program to D-I with their other sports.

I just wanted a true list of the true NAIA, D-II or D-III moveups to get a good understanding of who they are and what that group has accomplished.

[gophoenix]

So the updated real list looks like:

2008: NC Central, North Dakota
2007: Presbyterian, Winston-Salem State
2006: Central Arkansas
2005:
2004: North Dakota State, South Dakota State
2003: Northern Colorado, UC Davis
2002: Gardner-Webb
2001: Savannah State, Morris Brown (defunct)
2000:
1999: Alabama A&M, Elon, Sacred Heart, SUNY-Albany, SUNY-Stony Brook
1998: Arkansas-Pine Bluff, Portland State
1997: Norfolk State, Wofford
1996:
1995: Hampton, Jacksonville State, Robert Morris (DIII to NS)
1994: Cal Poly-SLO
1993: Hofstra, Sacramento State, Southern Utah, CCSU (DII to NS)
1992: Tennessee-Martin
1991:
1990: SE Missouri State
1989: Fordham, Liberty, Samford
1988:
1987: Towson, Villanova
1986: Morgan State, Sam Houston State, Stephen F Austin
1985:
1984: Eastern Washington, Texas State - San Marcos
1983:

[gophoenix]

Walliver is right, the NAIA was strong in the south because of the lack of a D-II presence after 1978.

The entire South Atlantic conference (Elon, Gardner-Webb, Presbyterian), CVAC (no football schools), Wofford (who was an indie I think) and what ended up being the Peach Belt moved up in the early 1990s almost together.... which basically signified the end of the NAIA in the south. It took real work by a number of conferences to insure that it worked out well for everyone.

[UAalum72]

I am not trying to slight the non-scholarship schools.
Of course you are, when you say

really, the "playoff champiunship division" is a place that you don't belong since you don't meet the requirements to make it in
when they meet every written requirement, except the recent BSC/OVC proposal, which isn't near passage yet


and you guys have your bowl-like games.
I knew this ********* 'Gridiron Classic' was going to be used as another excuse by some people to not consider some teams for the playoffs

[DUPFLFan]

But really, the "playoff champiunship division" is a place that you don't belong since you don't meet the requirements to make it in and you guys have your bowl-like games.

What requirements are you referring to?

The reason that there are "Bowl-like" Games is that the non-scholarship teams, even though (according to Ralph and others) ARE ELIGIBLE, they HAVE NOT and NEVER WILL be invited.

[gophoenix]

I read an article recently about the subcommittee setting up scholarship minimums for the playoffs, but then come to think of it, it may not quite be passed yet.

"The reason that there are "Bowl-like" Games is that the non-scholarship teams, even though (according to Ralph and others) ARE ELIGIBLE, they HAVE NOT and NEVER WILL be invited."

I was one of the ones that was always correcting people on this too up until I read that article.

And no, I am not slighting the non-schoalrship schools, but if you want to be considered, get your athletic department together and spend the money like the rest of us. If a school the size of Wofford can do it, then every single NS schools can. And if TN-Martin can bare through the tough times, you guys can too. And if Elon, Gardner-Webb and Samford can field top 25 teams, then you guys can too.

I am not like one of these other people who have a problem with the Big South or Great West conference, I have a problem with non-scholarships schools expecting a break from the ones who actually put forth the most effort in the division to try and field teams.

[aceinthehole]

I think it depends a bit on what you mean by "forced." I kind of think in this context it meant "Forced to go DI in order to keep basketball and other sports in DI." If that's the case, then Sac State, UNI, Central Connecticut, and Southern Utah weren't forced to move up - they had been in DII in basketball and everything for a while.

I can tell you one thing: North Dakota State wasn't forced into DI-AA - we wanted to go :)

Wrong...

These schools upgraded their men's basketball program (and the entire athletic departments except football) to D-I prior to the "Dayton Rule" in 1993. However, they kept their football programs in D-II until FORCED to move them.

According to NCAA records these schools were D-I in men's basketball in the following seasons:

Butler ... D-I (1948-present)
Cal St. Northridge... D-I (1991-present)
Central Conn. ... D-I (1987-present)
Southern Utah ... D-I (1989-present)
Santa Clara... D-I (1948-present)
St. Mary's (CA)... D-I (1948-present)
Valpo ... D-I (1948-58, 1977-present)

These schools also had football teams which were D-II, but were forced to move football to D-I or drop the program in 1993:

Butler ... D-II (1973-92); I-AA (1993-present)
Cal St. Northridge ... D-II (1973-92); I-AA (1993-2001)*
Central Conn. ... D-II (1973-92); I-AA (1993-present)
Southern Utah ... D-II (1982-1992); I-AA (1993-present)
Santa Clara... D-II (1973-1992)*
St. Mary's (CA)... D-II (1981-92); I-AA (1993-2003)*
Valpo ... D-II (1979-92); I-AA (1993-present)

*dropped football

So as you can see these schools all had a D-I athletic program (basketball, baseball, etc.) but chose to keep football at the D-II level. Up until 1992 this was allowed by the NCAA. Begining in 1993, the NCAA required schools to maintain their football programs in the same divison of the entire athletic departments, basically forcing these schools to move football from D-II to D-I.

---
You are right, North Dakota State wasn't forced to go to I-AA in football, however you were FORCED to upgrade ALL athletic teams to D-I if you wanted to make the uopgrade for football.

[DUPFLFan]

I have a problem with non-scholarships schools expecting a break from the ones who actually put forth the most effort in the division to try and field teams.

Define effort?

I keep telling you people that it is a Title IX issue. If you want to see scholarship football, baseball, wrestling at these schools that don't "put out the effort" then get Title IX repealed....:nonono2:

Title IX has gone too far the other way...

[gophoenix]

I keep telling you people that it is a Title IX issue

I understand that, which is why Elon no longer has men's track teams, wrestling, or a men's lacrosse team anymore.

Effort is 50 scholarships, which is just my opinion. Title IX sucks, but we all have to work with it. To give 50 football scholarships, how many women's funding equivalencies would you have to give??? That's where the money comes in and what I define as effort gets defined. Cut other men's sports like so many other schools have done, I don't know. There are options in reality.

[gr8ness97]

im kinda lost here...we are moving up 2 div 1, but i thought we were in the same year of the phase as central arkansas...we do play a division 1 schedule, just as an independent until next year when we join the MEAC

[DUPFLFan]

Effort is 50 scholarships, which is just my opinion. Title IX sucks, but we all have to work with it. To give 50 football scholarships, how many women's funding equivalencies would you have to give??? That's where the money comes in and what I define as effort gets defined. Cut other men's sports like so many other schools have done, I don't know. There are options in reality.

Here is what I think the cost would be. I'm not sure I am right but I am probably close.

To get to 50 scholarships or as the NCAA calls it."Athletically-Related Student Aid" (ARSA), here is how I think they figure it:

Drake's Tuition, Room and Board costs for the 2006-2007 school year is $29,182 which would put the ARSA for 50 scholarships at $1,459,100.00. Drake currently provides $1,089,980 in Male ARSA in other sports which would move this total to $2,549,080.

Female ARSA at Drake equals $1,613,625.

This means that to have equal ARSA for Title IX, Female ARSA would have to increase by $935,455 to a matching total of $2,549,080.

This would bring the total cost of adding 50 football scholarships at Drake to $2,394,555.:eek: And a total ARSA of $5,098,160.

As an example, here are some 1-a and 1-aa colleges near Drake and their ARSA costs, along where Drake would stand:

Drake's current ARSA costs = $2,703,605
Northern Iowa who has 4 times the student population = $2,883,602
Iowa State who has 8 times the student population = $4,308,635
Drake's New ARSA Costs with 50 Scholarships = $5,098,160
Iowa who has 9 times the student population = $5,718,340Which means that Drake's ARSA costs at 50 football scholarships would surpass Northern Iowa and Iowa State and be very close to Iowa.

I know there are other Title IX tests that would have to be examined. This is just a equal dollars assessment and one that most Pioneer and other Non-Scholarship schools would have to go through.

Thoughts?

Source: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

[gophoenix]

I didn't say it would be easy, but all private schools have to fork over larger dollars than the publics (plus private schools typically have a higher female student population which adds to the issue).

But you're about right, so to fund scholarships, you'd have to fork over some major $$$ or cut some of the other men's funding.

[*****]

WSSU doesn't count until 2007, the same with Presbyterian... officially that is. NC Central will count for 2008...:confused: WSSU has finished their exploratory year (2005-06) and starts their four year transition this year (same as UCA). http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=58379

Presby ( http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=77558 ) and NCCU ( http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=77636 ) haven't started their explo years yet but both should start the four year transition next year, 2007.

[blukeys]

I didn't say it would be easy, but all private schools have to fork over larger dollars than the publics (plus private schools typically have a higher female student population which adds to the issue).But you're about right, so to fund scholarships, you'd have to fork over some major $$$ or cut some of the other men's funding.

Not sure where you got the idea that Private Schools have a Higher female population then public schools. Public schools typically have Schools of Education and Nursing which are predominately female. Currently the female enrollment in all colleges outnumber males. The reasons for this are troubling and books are already being written on this issue.

The overall point of who the Title IX formula impacts is it effects everyone and Male sports (such as wrestling) suffer dipropotionately. In the end schools have to make a business decision about what sports help the school financially. Since football gets a lot of free publiciity it usually wins in the end but it is not an easy decision to make.:nod: :nod:

[blukeys]

Correction: Delaware wasn't forced to move to I-AA in 1980. They were a D-II independent and had the choice to reclassify or stay in D-II.

Most of UD's athletic competition had classified as D-I by 1978, so it just made sense for Delaware to do the same.


Delaware could have stayed in D-2 after 1980 (the first year they were in I-AA) without affecting their D-I status in other sports.

Delware held off joining I-AA for two years because they weren't sure the new subdivision would take off. The initial offer to Delaware was that they could join immediately with no penalty however they had to stay with I-AA for a number of years, I think it was two. Delaware waited 2 years to see if the I-AA format would be viable before committing to the subdivision in 1980.

[DUPFLFan]

I didn't say it would be easy, but all private schools have to fork over larger dollars than the publics (plus private schools typically have a higher female student population which adds to the issue).

But you're about right, so to fund scholarships, you'd have to fork over some major $$$ or cut some of the other men's funding.

So you are saying that Drake, a small private school at under 4000 students, should spend MORE money than Northern Iowa, spend the same money as Iowa State and Iowa and/or cut the scholarships of other men's sports just to get 50 football scholarships so they have the CHANCE of getting to a post season game that they should have had the opportunity to get into anyway????

That's lunacy...

xidiotx

[walliver]

Not sure where you got the idea that Private Schools have a Higher female population then public schools. Public schools typically have Schools of Education and Nursing which are predominately female. Currently the female enrollment in all colleges outnumber males. The reasons for this are troubling and books are already being written on this issue.

Most likely the original poster was referring to a pattern seen at many smaller private schools where families are sending their daughters to a "protected environment" at smaller public schools, but sending their sons to larger public schools feeling that they will be able to "take care of themselves". Of course, as long as there are hormonally active men around, there is no "protected environment" for young women:D

[gophoenix]

So you are saying that Drake, a small private school at under 4000 students, should spend MORE money than Northern Iowa, spend the same money as Iowa State and Iowa and/or cut the scholarships of other men's sports just to get 50 football scholarships so they have the CHANCE of getting to a post season game that they should have had the opportunity to get into anyway????

That's lunacy...

No, I didn't say spend more money, I said there is a way to bring yourselves up to 50 scholarships if you wanted to. Like I said, if Elon at 5k students, Wofford at 1.2k, Samford at 3.7k, Hampton at 5k and Furman at 2.5k can do it, then there's no excuse why any other private school can't.

If that's lunacy, then don't get upset when people say you don't put forth the effort....

[DUPFLFan]

No, I didn't say spend more money, I said there is a way to bring yourselves up to 50 scholarships if you wanted to. Like I said, if Elon at 5k students, Wofford at 1.2k, Samford at 3.7k, Hampton at 5k and Furman at 2.5k can do it, then there's no excuse why any other private school can't.

If that's lunacy, then don't get upset when people say you don't put forth the effort....

Gophoenix,

I made an assumption with my calculations that a school must provide scholarships (Athletically-Related Student Aid (ARSA)) along the lines of their male and female student populations. If that is an incorrect assumption, I apologize.

If it is not, then I am not sure how some of these schools doing this with Title IX. All of the ones you list are providing scholarships that are at least 20 points different than the student population.

Perhaps someone can explain it here...

Drake
Student Ratio Men 43% Women 57%
ARSA Ratio Men 40% Women 60%

Elon
Student Ratio Men 38% Women 62%
ARSA Ratio Men 65% Women 35%

Wofford
Student Ratio Men 52% Women 48%
ARSA Ratio Men 72% Women 28%

Samford
Student Ratio Men 36% Women 64%
ARSA Ratio Men 60% Women 40%

Hampton
Student Ratio Men 36% Women 64%
ARSA Ratio Men 59% Women 41%

Furman
Student Ratio Men 43% Women 57%
ARSA Ratio Men 65% Women 35%

Look, I would love to see the Pioneer League provide scholarships. It would save me about $20,000 per year! But based on my understanding of the situation, it's not possible.

What exactly is the way to do it that you are proposing? How else can Drake do it without spending more money???

[gophoenix]

I made an assumption with my calculations that a school must provide scholarships (Athletically-Related Student Aid (ARSA)) along the lines of their male and female student populations. If that is an incorrect assumption, I apologize.

That's my understanding too and I am not sure how so many schools get away with the ARSA differences the way they are. Let me see if I can get details on it.

My suggestion is to cut grants in aid for male sports (CC, track, wrestling, soccer, etc) and add to football. But that is, if you want them that way. I know Elon dumped 3 men's sports when we moved to D-II 16 years ago. And most men's sports are under-funded from the max (men's basketball being the exception, but Baseball and Football are 1-3 scholarships off the max yearly).

I think you can get around some of the Title IX issues by proving that you are "improving" or proving that there is "little interest" in further funding type of things.

[walliver]

If it is not, then I am not sure how some of these schools doing this with Title IX. All of the ones you list are providing scholarships that are at least 20 points different than the student population.

Title IX does not require actual equality, but does require an institution to demonstrate that they are seeking to reach that goal (although few if any will ever reach it - how would the I-A teams balance out their 85 football scholarships?). Under Title IX it is not hard to continue football scholarships, but would make it somewhat difficult to establish new ones.

It would be interesting to know what Coastal Carolina did as far as women's scholarships when they added football.

[DUPFLFan]

Title IX does not require actual equality, but does require an institution to demonstrate that they are seeking to reach that goal (although few if any will ever reach it - how would the I-A teams balance out their 85 football scholarships?). Under Title IX it is not hard to continue football scholarships, but would make it somewhat difficult to establish new ones.

Wallliver - thanks for the clarification. It would make it extremely difficult to go to 50 football scholarships and show that the institution is seeking balance....

Just looking at a 1-A team, Iowa, you can see that they balance out the 85 football scholarships by increasing the number of woman's sports. (11 sports teams to 9 men's teams) Here are the sports at Iowa with their NCAA Maximum Scholarships:

Iowa Women's teams
Basketball (15)
Track (18)
Field hockey (12)
Golf (6)
Gymnastics (12)
Rowing (20)
Soccer (12)
Softball (12)
Swimming (14)
Tennis (8)
Volleyball (12)
Total 141 Scholarships

Iowa Men's teams
Baseball (11.7)
Basketball (13)
Track (12.6)
Football (85)
Golf (4.5)
Gymnastics (6.3)
Swimming (9.9)
Tennis (4.5)
Wrestling (9.9)
Total 157.4 Scholarships

You can see that comparible women's sports have more available scholarships than comparible men's sports. That is how they make up for 85 scholarships. That is also why Drake (and all other non-scholarship football schools) would have to increase scholarships to women by sponsoring more sports teams to stay within title IX.


It would be interesting to know what Coastal Carolina did as far as women's scholarships when they added football.

I would be interested in hearing that too... Probably did what I laid out above...

[blukeys]

Title IX does not require actual equality, but does require an institution to demonstrate that they are seeking to reach that goal (although few if any will ever reach it - how would the I-A teams balance out their 85 football scholarships?). Under Title IX it is not hard to continue football scholarships, but would make it somewhat difficult to establish new ones.

It would be interesting to know what Coastal Carolina did as far as women's scholarships when they added football.

I don't know what Coastal did But Olld Dominion will be adding scholarship softball and volleyball to offset the football scollies.

[SoCon48]

I don't know what Coastal did But Olld Dominion will be adding scholarship softball and volleyball to offset the football scollies.

Just think about what a typical football player goes through to get his scholarship. Two-a-days in August's heat stroke weather. Getting stood up and sandwiched by two 6'5" 320 pound tackles while a 225 pound 4.40/40 linebacker slams in to ya. Catching 10 yard passes with frozen fingers in December.
or A volleyball playing co-ed keeping her figure and long legs in shape batting a volleyball over the net.

[DUPFLFan]

I don't know what Coastal did But Olld Dominion will be adding scholarship softball and volleyball to offset the football scollies.

Blukeys - that is precisely my point. For Private Non-scholarship schools to add 50 scholarships, it FAR more expensive due to title IX than you think.

Old Dominion's tuition for an in state student taking a full load is about $9600 for tuition, room and board. Softball and Volleyball will add 26 scholarships to the 50 scholarships (assumed for sake of discussion) giving a total of 76 ARSA for a cost of about $729K total.

Folks, it's not effort - it's Title IX. These schools keep football alive without driving the costs up beyond their means... and some of them are very good.

[Purple Pride]

EADA by institution:

http://dopke.com/Archives_Pages/Expenses/2004-05/DIExpenses0405.htm

[DUPFLFan]

EADA by institution:

http://dopke.com/Archives_Pages/Expenses/2004-05/DIExpenses0405.htm

I believe that this includes coach's salaries, uniforms etc.

Drake spent $9,459,800 total on athletics. $2,703,605 of this was ARSA.

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

[gophoenix]

Here you go:

1) athletically related financial assistance be allocated in proportion to the numbers of male and female students participating in intercollegiate athletics;

(2) all other benefits, opportunities and treatment afforded participants of each sex be equivalent; and

(3) the interests and abilities of students be effectively accommodated to the extent necessary to provide equal athletics opportunity for members of both sexes.

#3 is what guages interest and that is how lots of creative ways arounf Title IX are created.

[blukeys]

Just think about what a typical football player goes through to get his scholarship. Two-a-days in August's heat stroke weather. Getting stood up and sandwiched by two 6'5" 320 pound tackles while a 225 pound 4.40/40 linebacker slams in to ya. Catching 10 yard passes with frozen fingers in December.
or A volleyball playing co-ed keeping her figure and long legs in shape batting a volleyball over the net.


Wow you REALLY know nothing about Division I Women's volleyball. (or men's volleyball.) You need to print this out and take it to ASU's Women's volleyball Coach tomorrow as they are doing 3 a days at this time of year. Ask for a copy of the required offseason lifting Program and see if you can do the 250 lb. squat regimen most of the starters are doing. Also get a copy of the jump training and plyometric training that continues during the 3 a days.

We all realize that football players work hard and have a full time job in addition to their studies. It is hardly necessary to belittle the accomplishments of other Division I scholarship athletes to make that point.

The best conditioned athlete I have ever saw in person was Holly McPeak a Professional Beach Volleyball player who has earned prize money in the millions. Her daily workout routine was matched by only one football player that I know of and that was Jerry Rice's routine. (Both workouts were killers).

[blukeys]

Blukeys - that is precisely my point. For Private Non-scholarship schools to add 50 scholarships, it FAR more expensive due to title IX than you think.

Old Dominion's tuition for an in state student taking a full load is about $9600 for tuition, room and board. Softball and Volleyball will add 26 scholarships to the 50 scholarships (assumed for sake of discussion) giving a total of 76 ARSA for a cost of about $729K total.

Folks, it's not effort - it's Title IX. These schools keep football alive without driving the costs up beyond their means... and some of them are very good.

Don't confuse me with those being critical of Drake's or anyone else's effort.

I got your point. I was just kicking in what I know. I have already stated that adding scollies is a bigger hardship for a smaller school. It is just easier spreading additional costs over an Undergrad population of 15,000 then 5,000.

Old Dominion's decision was actually very easy as they were already looking at adding additional women's sports. Both Softball and volleyball are big in the region and of course the CAA conference already sponsors both sports with immediate rivals within easy travel distance.

[blukeys]

Folks, it's not effort - it's Title IX. These schools keep football alive without driving the costs up beyond their means... and some of them are very good.


By the way DUPFLF, The best reasoned critique of Title IX and the havoc it wreaks on College Sports is by the feminist writer Camille Paglia. The woman is absolutely fearsome when she gets on her soap box and she is at the top of it here.

Paglia is particularly incensed about what Title IX has done to College Wrestling. Why a super feminist lesbian writer and professor would adopt College wrestling as her cause celebre' is beyond me. But she does it. Her essays on this topic are well worth the time to read. :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[SoCon48]

Wow you REALLY know nothing about Division I Women's volleyball. (or men's volleyball.) You need to print this out and take it to ASU's Women's volleyball Coach tomorrow as they are doing 3 a days at this time of year. Ask for a copy of the required offseason lifting Program and see if you can do the 250 lb. squat regimen most of the starters are doing. Also get a copy of the jump training and plyometric training that continues during the 3 a days.

We all realize that football players work hard and have a full time job in addition to their studies. It is hardly necessary to belittle the accomplishments of other Division I scholarship athletes to make that point.

The best conditioned athlete I have ever saw in person was Holly McPeak a Professional Beach Volleyball player who has earned prize money in the millions. Her daily workout routine was matched by only one football player that I know of and that was Jerry Rice's routine. (Both workouts were killers).

Duh. It was a joke.
But did you ever play high school or college football?

But still comparing what a typical college football player goes through to a typical volleyball player, the edge would clearly have to go to the football players. Never went through the rigorous volleyball conditioning you speak of, but I've gone through eastern North Carolina August football practice days that included full gear with the humidity in the 80% range with the temperature in the 90's getting ready for an even more grueling first mid-August game. Got more than one letter from former players in boot camp at Paris Island who said the training was a breeze compared to August football practices.
As to best conditioned athletes, marathon runners come to mind. Certainly not far behind, if any, would be professional boxers. Can't think of anything tougher than holding the arms up and throwing punches while getting pounded anywhere on the head and body your opponent can reach for 14 rounds. Arms, legs feel like lead long before the mid-rounds.

[blukeys]

Duh. It was a joke.
But did you ever play high school or college football?

But still comparing what a typical college football player goes through to a typical volleyball player, the edge would clearly have to go to the football players. Never went through the rigorous volleyball conditioning you speak of, but I've gone through eastern North Carolina August football practice days that included full gear with the humidity in the 80% range with the temperature in the 90's getting ready for an even more grueling first mid-August game. Got more than one letter from former players in boot camp at Paris Island who said the training was a breeze compared to August football practices.
As to best conditioned athletes, marathon runners come to mind. Certainly not far behind, if any, would be professional boxers. Can't think of anything tougher than holding the arms up and throwing punches while getting pounded anywhere on the head and body your opponent can reach for 14 rounds. Arms, legs feel like lead long before the mid-rounds.

You said you were joking and I can accept that.

Now for my credentials.

My son was a State Champion wrestler and all of his football buddies said that wrestling practice was 10 times tougher than anything on the football field. I have a good friend who coached both wrestling and football and agrees with my son's friends.

My High School did not have football. But 2 of my best friends are high school football coaches and we discuss conditioning and strength and speed training ad nauseum. I have coached Volleyball since 1990 both boys and girls. As I have said football coaches ask for my opinion on training techniques for plyometrics many of which are beneficial for both sports. Until 1998 my players never got to play in an air conditioned gym. I'm not sure how their August pre season was worse than yours.


As to Best conditioned athletes check out Holly Mcpeak, she has her own Website.
I would put Lance Armstrong up there before most but not all Marathon runners.


As for Boxing, My father made the boxing team at Georgetown U . His Best friend, who we called Uncle but he wasn't really an Uncle, was a Golden Gloves Champion and Army Champion. I go to our local boxing matches with world class boxers (They are broadcast on ESPN2. check out the matches from Dover Downs) I have yet to see a better conditioned athlete than Holly and I have been in the the gym with some of these guys.

[DUPFLFan]

Don't confuse me with those being critical of Drake's or anyone else's effort.

Thanks - didn't mean to go overboard on stats but some on this board and in conference and NCAA offices don't get it. They believe and have stated, either outright or via proposals, that the non-scholly's are not really part of 1-AA because they don't give an effort (via scholarships), therefore they should not be part of the playoff process.

As a personal note, my son turned down a couple of 1-AA scholarships to go to Drake. He felt that his education was the most important thing.:hurray:

He is now a three year starter as a junior and, I believe, would have been a starter by now on any of the teams that offered him a scholarship.

[gophoenix]

that the non-scholly's are not really part of 1-AA because they don't give an effort (via scholarships), therefore they should not be part of the playoff process.

No one has ever said the NS schools aren't part of I-AA. They've clearly said that the NS schools shouldn't be part of the playoff process. If you are unwilling to meet a minimum standard (which will be implemented) then yes. Plus you have a bowl and therefore should not be part of the championship division.

[*****]

So the updated real list...should be
2006: Central Arkansas, Winston-Salem State