Biggest Dropoff in Talent: FBS-FCS, FCS-D2, D2-D3/NAIA

[Lehigh'98]

I really know little to nothing about D2 & D3 ball. Genuinely curious as to where in the college football divisions the biggest gap occurs. Obviously you will always have your diamonds in the rough, but from a starting 11 standpoint, not depthwise where does the biggest gap in talent occur? Be interested to hear your thoughts.

[woffordgrad94]

Real FCS (Wofford, ASU, GSU, NDSU, Eastern Washington) to Fake FCS (Davidson, Campbell, Dayton, Butler)

I think FCS (REAL that is) to D2 is pretty big as well. But a lot of the fake FCS wouldn't beat a number of D2 teams.

[Cap'n Obvious]

Real FCS (Wofford, ASU, GSU, NDSU, Eastern Washington) to Fake FCS (Davidson, Campbell, Dayton, Butler)

I think FCS (REAL that is) to D2 is pretty big as well. But a lot of the fake FCS wouldn't beat a number of D2 teams.

I'd have to agree with this. I'd probably expand Fake FCS though to include a lot more teams than most. The drop off is huge even from some of the power conferences to the not so fortunate conferences. Not to offend anyone but Pioneer....MEAC..come to mind.

The easy comparison is to say the drop off is from top FCS to bottom FCS, Top FCS could compete with bottom FBS, then Top D2 can compete with bottom FCS, bottom D2 can compete with top D3...etc...(but that's why I chose this name.....just stating the obvious).

[Lehigh'98]

I would think its from Top FBS to FCS, but like I said I am very unfamiliar w D2 &D3 football.

[Cap'n Obvious]

I would think its from Top FBS to FCS, but like I said I am very unfamiliar w D2 &D3 football.

meant to say I'm unfamiliar as well, not sure how many scholarships are really given at the D3 level....maybe even D2 for that matter. Would think the talent corresponds.

[lionsrking2]

meant to say I'm unfamiliar as well, not sure how many scholarships are really given at the D3 level....maybe even D2 for that matter. Would think the talent corresponds.

In general, discounting isolated comparisons, the biggest drops are upper level FBS to FCS, then D-II to D-III or FCS to non-scholarship FCS ... there's obviously drop off from FCS to D-II but more so in depth and not as drastic ... there are lots of kids playing D-II who don't qualify at the D-I level.

[grayghost06]

In 2007, eventual Div. III national champ Wisconsin Whitewater stepped up in class and played at Div. II St. Cloud St. They lost the game 26-16 and it was their only loss in a 14-1 season. St. Cloud wound up finishing 4-7 that year. Don't know if St. Cloud gives out the full 36 scholarships or not.

[WataugaDave]

I agree, Top FBS to Top FCS is a BIG drop off, but the drop from lower-tier FBS teams to top FCS teams is quite small. They same can be said of lower-level FCS teams and stronger D-II programs.

I don't really follow D-II, but apparently Winston-Salem State, from my hometown, makes headlines at that level.

[lionsrking2]

I agree, Top FBS to Top FCS is a BIG drop off, but the drop from lower-tier FBS teams to top FCS teams is quite small. They same can be said of lower-level FCS teams and stronger D-II programs.

I don't really follow D-II, but apparently Winston-Salem State, from my hometown, makes headlines at that level.

I've followed D-II quite a bit over the years and there are some very good programs with outstanding players ... D-II entrance requirements allow them to take BCS level kids who don't qualify for D-I as well as take kids who have exhausted D-I eligibility... eligibility is determined by semesters vs the 5/4 clock used in D-I.

By no means am I saying D-II is as good a product as FCS, but I would say there are a number of programs who wouldn't have a problem competing with most FCS programs, at least on an individual game basis.

[bojeta]

Biggest drop off is definitely Pop Warner :D

Most of what's been said is generally true, but you get surprised now and then. Cal Poly, at DII level, defeated Boise State the year Boise won the D-IAA (FCS) Title. Of course, Cal Poly won the DII Title that year as well.

[dudeitsaid]

I've followed D-II quite a bit over the years and there are some very good programs with outstanding players ... D-II entrance requirements allow them to take BCS level kids who don't qualify for D-I as well as take kids who have exhausted D-I eligibility... eligibility is determined by semesters vs the 5/4 clock used in D-I.

By no means am I saying D-II is as good a product as FCS, but I would say there are a number of programs who wouldn't have a problem competing with most FCS programs, at least on an individual game basis.

Having seen EWU play D II CWU in 2010, the game came down to the wire, then CWU did the same thing to Montana the following year. Amazingly, 2010 they played the eventual NC EWU to within 3 points, and had one of the best records in D-II with a close loss to a highly ranked team and got left out of the playoffs. Big shaft on that. But they have beaten EWU, and always play them tough. I would think top tier D-II can compete surprise a lot of FCS teams.

[lionsrking2]

Having seen EWU play D II CWU in 2010, the game came down to the wire, then CWU did the same thing to Montana the following year. Amazingly, 2010 they played the eventual NC EWU to within 3 points, and had one of the best records in D-II with a close loss to a highly ranked team and got left out of the playoffs. Big shaft on that. But they have beaten EWU, and always play them tough. I would think top tier D-II can compete surprise a lot of FCS teams.

No doubt.

[frozennorth]

ndsu and und beat montana in 2003 and uni in 2006, respectively. neither d2 team was particularly outstanding in either year, but far from terrible.

[Twentysix]

DIII probably has the biggest talent gap. NAIA teams can beat FCS teams, (See USF vs UND).

I believe DIII offers 0 effective scholarships. And talent who can't cut it academically in DI would go to DII not DIII.

Meaning they have zero scholarships and zero advantage when it comes freak athlete's who are as smart as a chair.

[tingly]

The pool of players who can play a particular level gets bigger as you go down the levels, so the biggest gap should be FBS to FCS. The gaps aren't huge though. They are from the #1 FBS to #120 FCS, but not #20 FCS to #70 FBS.

[bonarae]

DIII probably has the biggest talent gap. NAIA teams can beat FCS teams, (See USF vs UND).

I believe DIII offers 0 effective scholarships. And talent who can't cut it academically in DI would go to DII not DIII.

Meaning they have zero scholarships and zero advantage when it comes freak athlete's who are as smart as a chair.

Yes. That is true for D-III. They are non-scholarship by design. :)

(Note: Most of the higher-ranking academic D-III participating programs do not have football or have football teams but do not participate in the playoffs. Exception: Johns Hopkins.)

[walliver]

The biggest drop is Alabama vs the rest of college football.

[WileECoyote06]

BCS to FCS. Before FCS ADs got smart, good Division II teams used to smack up FCS teams all the time. The starting lineups can usually match player for player. .. they just have less depth; and that usually starts to show in the fourth quarter.

By the way, DII can offer 36 equivalencies that can be split up.

[WileECoyote06]

I agree, Top FBS to Top FCS is a BIG drop off, but the drop from lower-tier FBS teams to top FCS teams is quite small. They same can be said of lower-level FCS teams and stronger D-II programs.

I don't really follow D-II, but apparently Winston-Salem State, from my hometown, makes headlines at that level.

WSSU went 1-10 in the MEAC during their last year in FCS causing the firing of longtime coach Kermit Blount. Their current coach, Connell Maynor, went 8-2 in his first year, and 13-1 (national semifinalist) last year. They are currently the #2 team in the nation.

[fc97]

i don't think you can generalize like this.

you can see dramatic drops from the top bcs to bottom fbs types.
you can see dramatic drops from ndsu to davidson.

dii is fairly stables across the board.
diii there is a dramatic drop from the mount union types to the guilford or christopher newport types.
naia is above diii but not far off dii which is one reason you see many naia moveups to ncaa going to dii and competing immediately.

i think the biggest drop is from bcs to lower fbs or top fcs to certain programs, but across the board you see a general merging at the borders of each.

[Laker]

In 2007, eventual Div. III national champ Wisconsin Whitewater stepped up in class and played at Div. II St. Cloud St. They lost the game 26-16 and it was their only loss in a 14-1 season. St. Cloud wound up finishing 4-7 that year. Don't know if St. Cloud gives out the full 36 scholarships or not.

I don't know if they did that year, but I think that the current NSIC limit has been raised to 28 so I know that they haven't for years.

[superman7515]

D3 Wesley here in Delaware has a few wins against FCS competition, last time beating Charleston Southern 32-20 last season.

[superman7515]

I don't really follow D-II, but apparently Winston-Salem State, from my hometown, makes headlines at that level.

They make noise because they moved to D1, got a bunch of D1 recruits, and then changed their mind and moved back to D2. So they were beating D2 teams with a D1 roster.

[TheRevSFA]

Pittsburg State, NW MO, WSSU could beat FCS teams.

Mary Hardin-Baylor probably could hang with the bottom tier of FCS teams

[fc97]

They make noise because they moved to D1, got a bunch of D1 recruits, and then changed their mind and moved back to D2. So they were beating D2 teams with a D1 roster.

That was three years ago, at most they have 1 year of d-i talent on the team now.

[UNDColorado]

DIII probably has the biggest talent gap. NAIA teams can beat FCS teams, (See USF vs UND).

I believe DIII offers 0 effective scholarships. And talent who can't cut it academically in DI would go to DII not DIII.

Meaning they have zero scholarships and zero advantage when it comes freak athlete's who are as smart as a chair.

Also see Wisconsin- Lacrosse at South Dakota State. UND also beat UNI in 06 when we were still D2.

[DFW HOYA]

Dropoff? II to III.

[bonarae]

Dropoff? II to III.

Agree with this. D-III has a wide range of talent disparity across regions and conferences. The secret of Mount Union's and Wisconsin-Whitewater's successes probably lies in the coaches' way to recruit talent higher than D-III level yet the coaches still keep in mind the way D-III recruiting works.

[URMite]

What I'd be curious about is...which division do you think has the biggest drop off from their tenth best team to their tenth worst team?
ie #10 vs #112 in FCS

[DFW HOYA]

What I'd be curious about is...which division do you think has the biggest drop off from their tenth best team to their tenth worst team?
ie #10 vs #112 in FCS

III:

#10 St. Thomas MN (enrollment 5,914, 7-0 record)
#231: Maine Maritime (enrollment: 917, 0-7 record)

[blueballs]

To me the biggest drop off is scholarship to non scholarship, regardless of division.

GSU was closer to Alabama than Jacksonville was to GSU on the field, even though all of them are division 1.

[LeadBolt]

Top of FBS to bottom of FBS. Look at Alabama, Florida, Kansas State, Oregon and Notre Dame and compare them with Massachusetts, Akron, New Mexico State, Idaho, Army and Memphis. It doesn't get much more dramatic than that.

[URMite]

Top of FBS to bottom of FBS. Look at Alabama, Florida, Kansas State, Oregon and Notre Dame and compare them with Massachusetts, Akron, New Mexico State, Idaho, Army and Memphis. It doesn't get much more dramatic than that.

I just noticed UMass earlier today while searching for FCS SOS.

[DFW HOYA]

Top of FBS to bottom of FBS. Look at Alabama, Florida, Kansas State, Oregon and Notre Dame and compare them with Massachusetts, Akron, New Mexico State, Idaho, Army and Memphis. It doesn't get much more dramatic than that.

Maybe not a good analogy. The bottom 5 I-A teams are all within 40 points of the top; Memphis isn't going to lose by 70 to Notre Dame.

But in I-AA, put NDSU up against Valpo and it would probably be a mess.

[superman7515]

Maybe not a good analogy. The bottom 5 I-A teams are all within 40 points of the top; Memphis isn't going to lose by 70 to Notre Dame.

But in I-AA, put NDSU up against Valpo and it would probably be a mess.

UMass would lose by 70 to most of the Top 15 if they played the starters from beginning to end.

[OB55]

Drop offs are consistent with differences in number of scholarships. D-II athletes also have to prove eligibility through the NCAA clearing house, and the differences between being eligible between D-1 and D-II is very small, not much more than the difference of having three years of math to four years of math in high school, you still have to have a combination of GPA, core courses and a certain level of ACT or SAT scores to receive a scholarship in college in the first year.

The rest of any "drop offs" or "jump ups" of course can be attributed to the relative strengths/weaknesses of individual programs, regardless of the division.

[boogereagle]

B]there are lots of kids playing D-II who don't qualify at the D-I level[/B].

This. I think at one point a few years back Fort Valley State had something like eight or nine guys on their roster who were recruited by BCS schools but couldn't get in academically or had other off field issues.

Valdosta State, North Alabama -- those schools were once (and may still be) fairly notorious for taking transfers from bigtime BCS programs. I quit caring about it like I used to, so I don't know the actual numbers.

If there's a drop off, it's in numbers. But there's talent everywhere. Even D3.

By the way, some of the best pure football I've seen in years is at the D3 level.

[lionsrking2]

D-II's can get JC players into school that D-I's cannot, which is huge ... not to mention they can take one-year transfers or kids who have exhausted D-I eligibility due to the 5 to play 4 clock, but still have a semester of eligibility at the D-II level. Scholarship differences are definitely an issue but access to premium talent not eligible at D-I's help offset the disparity for the better D-II programs.


Drop offs are consistent with differences in number of scholarships. D-II athletes also have to prove eligibility through the NCAA clearing house, and the differences between being eligible between D-1 and D-II is very small, not much more than the difference of having three years of math to four years of math in high school, you still have to have a combination of GPA, core courses and a certain level of ACT or SAT scores to receive a scholarship in college in the first year.

The rest of any "drop offs" or "jump ups" of course can be attributed to the relative strengths/weaknesses of individual programs, regardless of the division.

[Cocky]

BCS to FBS

[dgtw]

One year during their run of three straight DII titles, North Alabama lost to Youngstown State 17-14. It was their only loss in those three years and YSU won the IAA championship that year.

Terry Bowden was infamous for bringing in bunch of questionable people when he was at UNA.

On DIII ball....A guy I went to high school with said a DIII school offered him a scholarship. I said I thought DIII didn't do that and he said they don't but the coach told him if he went there, they'd "work something out".

I've heard the top level DIII programs are very good at "working something out".

[citdog]

Haven't y'all been paying attention? Obviously the biggest talent drop off is between is between the Chattanooga mocs and all others. Including the afc and the nfc.

[ITmonarch10]

Maybe not a good analogy. The bottom 5 I-A teams are all within 40 points of the top; Memphis isn't going to lose by 70 to Notre Dame.

But in I-AA, put NDSU up against Valpo and it would probably be a mess.

You don't know Memphis football XD

[Cocky]

You don't know Memphis football XD

Or Idaho, Troy, New Mex State or UAB.