The "Credibility" of the TSN Poll

[bluehenbillk]

I think TSN has done an outstanding job over the years in covering & promoting FCS football. Going back to Tony Moss, most of the people they've had work there have done a great job. Look I've been on internet message boards for over a decade now & have probably posted between all of them in excess of 20,000 times & have heard and joked about "East Coast Bias".

I don't know how else to explain this:

Cal Poly at 11, Lehigh at 8. Both teams got three first-pace votes? ?

Both teams are undefeated, one plays in the Patriot League & one plays in the Big Sky.

Cal Poly has a FBS win on its resume this year, Lehigh's best win is against sub-.500 Liberty.

Cal Poly has won all but one FCS game this year by double digits, Lehigh struggled in 5 of their 8 contests.

It's amazing to see people's interpretations about football teams, amazing...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, that's it. East Coast Bias is pushing Lehigh to No. 8. xlolx xlolx xlolx

[slostang]

Cal Poly started the year unranked. They only move up based on which teams ranked ahead of them lose, not on their performance. Not the way it should be, just the wait is.

[ITmonarch10]

I think TSN has done an outstanding job over the years in covering & promoting FCS football. Going back to Tony Moss, most of the people they've had work there have done a great job. Look I've been on internet message boards for over a decade now & have probably posted between all of them in excess of 20,000 times & have heard and joked about "East Coast Bias".

I don't know how else to explain this:

Cal Poly at 11, Lehigh at 8. Both teams got three first-pace votes? ?

Both teams are undefeated, one plays in the Patriot League & one plays in the Big Sky.

Cal Poly has a FBS win on its resume this year, Lehigh's best win is against sub-.500 Liberty.

Cal Poly has won all but one FCS game this year by double digits, Lehigh struggled in 5 of their 8 contests.

It's amazing to see people's interpretations about football teams, amazing...

Cal Poly win over Wyoming isn't even that impressive. Wyoming only win is a 40-37 victory of Idaho, the hot garbage of FBS football. If you take that away both teams schedules are terrible.
Neither team has played anyone of note and probably both should be just outside the top 10. Lehigh is just getting the benefit of the doubt due to their playoff appearance last year.

[ngineer]

I think TSN has done an outstanding job over the years in covering & promoting FCS football. Going back to Tony Moss, most of the people they've had work there have done a great job. Look I've been on internet message boards for over a decade now & have probably posted between all of them in excess of 20,000 times & have heard and joked about "East Coast Bias".

I don't know how else to explain this:

Cal Poly at 11, Lehigh at 8. Both teams got three first-pace votes? ?

Both teams are undefeated, one plays in the Patriot League & one plays in the Big Sky.

Cal Poly has a FBS win on its resume this year, Lehigh's best win is against sub-.500 Liberty.

Cal Poly has won all but one FCS game this year by double digits, Lehigh struggled in 5 of their 8 contests.

It's amazing to see people's interpretations about football teams, amazing...

I don't disagree that Cal Poly can be higher, but their 'great' FBS win was over a team most of the top FCS 15 schools would also beat. Not impressed with their schedule to date, either. I will grant you that Lehigh's performance over the past two years probably has some element in some people's thinking, and that's just the way polls are. Delaware gets the same benefit for all their past glory years, too. It's the way of the poll-world.

[dbackjon]

Cal Poly win over Wyoming isn't even that impressive. Wyoming only win is a 40-37 victory of Idaho, the hot garbage of FBS football. If you take that away both teams schedules are terrible.
Neither team has played anyone of note and probably both should be just outside the top 10. Lehigh is just getting the benefit of the doubt due to their playoff appearance last year.

Wyoming would still win every PL game by 20+ points

[ITmonarch10]

Cal Poly started the year unranked. They only move up based on which teams ranked ahead of them lose, not on their performance. Not the way it should be, just the wait is.
I think Cal Poly will be highly rank by the time the season ends with NAU and EWU on your schedule still. If you go unbeaten you will probably be a #1 or 2 seed regardless of what the polls say.

[frozennorth]

in fairness to wyoming, they've lost to top25 texas, by 3 to toledo (7-1), 2 to cal poly (7-0), 7 to nevada (6-2) in ot, by 1 to airforce(4-3), and badly to fresno state (5-3). Not a huge upset, but still a top25 caliber fcs team. sagarin would put them 17th.


cal poly has had a fairly weak schedule, with UND (who they held to 17 points and 400 yards, something only ewu has been able to do) and UC davis being their toughest tests, but they have taken care of business. we'll find out for sure in a couple weeks against ewu and nau.

realistically though, their schedule to this point hasn't been that much easier than much of the rest of the top-10

[WrenFGun]

Wyoming would still win every PL game by 20+ points

Correct. The notion that an FBS win is a "bad win" is absurd to me. If it were a "bad win" then we'd see WAY more FCS over FBS wins than we do..

[bojeta]

I don't disagree that Cal Poly can be higher, but their 'great' FBS win was over a team most of the top FCS 15 schools would also beat. Not impressed with their schedule to date, either. I will grant you that Lehigh's performance over the past two years probably has some element in some people's thinking, and that's just the way polls are. Delaware gets the same benefit for all their past glory years, too. It's the way of the poll-world.

How good/bad is Wyoming? Before you just look at the W/L record, consider this:

VS #25 Texas L 17-37 kept the game tight through 3rd. Texas currently 5-2

VS Toledo L 31-34 Toledo currently 7-1 and ranked #26

VS Cal Poly L 22-24 Cal Poly 7-0 and ranked FCS

VS Idaho W

VS Nevada L 28-35 Nevada currently 6-2

VS Air Force L 27-28 Air Force currently 4-3

VS Fresno L 14-42 (total meltdown following coaches tantrum) Fresno 5-3

[bojeta]

Wyoming would still win every PL game by 20+ points

Might add: Idaho would beat every PL team by 20+

[ITmonarch10]

in fairness to wyoming, they've lost to top25 texas, by 3 to toledo (7-1), 2 to cal poly (7-0), 7 to nevada (6-2) in ot, by 1 to airforce(4-3), and badly to fresno state (5-3). Not a huge upset, but still a top25 caliber fcs team. sagarin would put them 17th.


cal poly has had a fairly weak schedule, with UND (who they held to 17 points and 400 yards, something only ewu has been able to do) and UC davis being their toughest tests, but they have taken care of business. we'll find out for sure in a couple weeks against ewu and nau.

realistically though, their schedule to this point hasn't been that much easier than much of the rest of the top-10

Every team is ahead of them except Lehigh and Stony Brook has played a top 25 team. Lehigh was in the playoffs last season and Stony Broke shared the big south crown last season giving them the leg up on Cal Poly. Many of the other teams have played 2 to 3 games against ranked opponents. Yes, Cal Poly schedule has been easier than most ,but your schedule is back loaded so its fine. NAU might want to go 9-2 just to make sure they get in the playoffs if they lose to Cal Poly.

[LUHawker]

Might add: Idaho would beat every PL team by 20+

Have you seen several PL games this year and over the last couple?

I can say that I never see any of the CP games on TV so I could not judge how good they are; can you do the same?

This is a legit question to you (and frankly to all the other PL-naysayers)

[RichH2]

Gotta laugh, eastern bias, well probably but amazing ignorance from some westerners.
No knock on CalPoly they may be better. Polls are just opinions. Playoffs are real. Perhaps we'll meet.

[tingly]

Voters kept Lehigh on their preseason ranking until 3 weeks ago when a few teams right above them lost. Cal Poly needed to be about 4 spots higher to move up with them, but in the meantime went from 10 to 3 spots behind Lehigh. Lehigh's bye this week won't help them and a 9-0 Poly would leap ahead from beating #1 Eastern Wash.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Why is Cal Poly being compared to Lehigh? The bottom line is Cal Poly is grossly underrated.

Lehigh is probably also slightly underrated. They have nothing to do with Cal Poly being underrated.

Compare Cal Poly to JMU or Sam Houston State.

[Grizalltheway]

I love all the EC homers using Cal Poly's SOS as a knock against them, but not Lehigh. Monmouth? CCS? Columbia? Complete joke of a schedule, and the last time they played a team from a legit conference (NDSU) they got blown out of the water.

[tingly]

They're being compared cuz TSN ranks them Lehigh-Poly, AGS ranks them Poly-Lehigh, and most around here seem to agree with AGS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I love all the EC homers using Cal Poly's SOS as a knock against them, but not Lehigh. Monmouth? CCS? Columbia? Complete joke of a schedule, and the last time they played a team from a legit conference (NDSU) they got blown out of the water.

I forget, how's the Griz doing this year?

[ITmonarch10]

I love all the EC homers using Cal Poly's SOS as a knock against them, but not Lehigh. Monmouth? CCS? Columbia? Complete joke of a schedule, and the last time they played a team from a legit conference (NDSU) they got blown out of the water.

Most people of AGS don't give a sh** about the patriot league. I'm not even sure why people care so much about Lehigh's rank. They are going to be going to the playoff via autobid anyway. So just ignore Lehigh and StonyBrook regardless of were they are ranked.

[Grizalltheway]

I forget, how's the Griz doing this year?

xrolleyesx

Nice red herring. My point was about Lehigh vs Caly Poly, not Lehigh vs Montana. Carry on. xcoffeex

[bojeta]

Have you seen several PL games this year and over the last couple?

I can say that I never see any of the CP games on TV so I could not judge how good they are; can you do the same?

This is a legit question to you (and frankly to all the other PL-naysayers)

Really, my comment was more of a reaction to ITMonarch20's post. I actually think Lehigh is a pretty good team and they are ranked accordingly in my poll. As to watching PL games, yes, I have. ESPN loves carrying East Coast games, and I enjoy watching them. Since Cal Poly's games start at 6:05 on the West Coast, I can watch quite a few games during the season, either online or on TV. If you saw Cal Poly play, you'd probably agree they are a very good team, however, one biased viewer already made a ridiculous comment to the contrary (people will see what they want to see). Admittedly, highlights almost always make a team look good (sometimes better than they are), but check out any of the SloCalSports.com highlight videos. They're well done, fun to watch, and, I believe, accurately depict Cal Poly's strength. Cal Poly ironically would often receive weak SOS comments during the Great West days in spite of regularly receiving the strongest SOS ratings from Sagarin etc. Montana, and 1 to 2 FBS teams have been a staple on their schedule. Additionally, they would travel great distances to pick up quality FCS games. Recently traveling to McNeese, Old Dominion etc. and winning more often than not. This is a program that has always sought out solid OOC games. This year's detractors began by arguing that Cal Poly didn't play Montana and Montana State this year, but as it turns out, we ended up with 3 of the 4 strongest opponents on our schedule: EWU, Sac State, and NAU. Portland, N. Dakota, Davis and Weber were all solid opponents as well, though their records won't show it (ask Montana State, and South Dakota State about Davis). Fact is, our schedule is nearly as strong as any in FCS. The rest of the FCS should be happy they don't have to play any team above Idaho State or Northern Colorado in our conference. We will have to wait and see how our three toughest games turn out, but it just might come to pass that Cal Poly plays Lehigh somewhere in the playoffs. So keep winning. I'd love to continue this conversation in person. That would mean both our teams had the success they deserve :)

[RichH2]

Yup we lost to Natl Champ w/o our best rb and wr. Still woulld have lost closer game. So we knock LU for losing to team everyone else lost to. Great argument by a griz. Absolute proof that PL sucks.
PL not one the power conferences and wont necessarily be one even with merit aid.
We do play good football as our record vs "power" teams shows.

[RichH2]

Bojeta,
Good luck rest of season. Great if we play. Agree with your post. Back here we dont get to see CP, a shame.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

9PM Cal poly plays Sac State, available free online through America One:

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/fcs-information-center/wkly-schedules/week-9-2012

http://b2tv.com/partner_members.asp?id=270

I know I'm planning on seeing if another team can make it to 8-0.

[ITmonarch10]

If Cal Poly were to lose to Sacramento, where would you rank Cal Poly assuming every other team in the ranking just happened to have byes that week. Also, would they jump anyone if they won next week.

*based off of TSN polls*

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I forget, how's the Griz doing this year?

Seriously what does this type of thing have to do with anything else being discussed? What is it about some of you guys wanting to try to turn a normal argument into a pissing match about what some other posters individual team is doing when they are not using it as a comparison in the argument?

Oh well, if those of us that should have good arguments and the ability to discuss a point of view are not gonna then fair enough let's just go with the lowest common denominator huh?

My reply is as such:

The Griz are playing a real schedule and have some losses and can not fall back on a Lehigh type schedule to buoy them.xthumbsupx

[RichH2]

Thanks LFN. Will watch. Prior to this thread would not have been interested.

[slostang]

I think Cal Poly will be highly rank by the time the season ends with NAU and EWU on your schedule still. If you go unbeaten you will probably be a #1 or 2 seed regardless of what the polls say.

Cal Poly's next 4 games:

@ Sac State (5-3)
@ EWU (6-1) #1 ranked
Idaho State (1-6) only easy game of the 4.
@ NAU (6-1).

The next four weeks will let us know if Cal Poly belongs in the top ten.

[danefan]

Seriously what does this type of thing have to do with anything else being discussed? What is it about some of you guys wanting to try to turn a normal argument into a pissing match about what some other posters individual team is doing when they are not using it as a comparison in the argument?

Oh well, if those of us that should have good arguments and the ability to discuss a point of view are not gonna then fair enough let's just go with the lowest common denominator huh?

My reply is as such:

The Griz are playing a real schedule and have some losses and can not fall back on a Lehigh type schedule to buoy them.xthumbsupx

Exhibit #15

[WrenFGun]

I love all the EC homers using Cal Poly's SOS as a knock against them, but not Lehigh. Monmouth? CCS? Columbia? Complete joke of a schedule, and the last time they played a team from a legit conference (NDSU) they got blown out of the water.

Have you seen any of my last 300 posts? Cal Poly is very underranked, Lehigh is very overranked. Again, Cal Poly has an FBS win. Lehigh has played a PFL schedule.

[WrenFGun]

I forget, how's the Griz doing this year?

This is a trend. Someone makes a point and instead of responding (since it's impossible), the poster's team just gets insulted. I'm not singling LFN out, this is just the most recent in something that seems to happen CONSTANTLY. Why is that?

[RichH2]

LCD
Many examples of that scattered throughout AGS . You just added another one. A very selective Ralph post. I thoght that era was over.

[danefan]

This is a trend. Someone makes a point and instead of responding (since it's impossible), the poster's team just gets insulted. I'm not singling LFN out, this is just the most recent in something that seems to happen CONSTANTLY. Why is that?

I think it happens because there is no argument left to make. It's a defense mechanism when these folks get backed into a corner.

I'm not surprised to see it happen with posters from the traditional powers. But from Patriot League and OVC posers?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is a trend. Someone makes a point and instead of responding (since it's impossible), the poster's team just gets insulted. I'm not singling LFN out, this is just the most recent in something that seems to happen CONSTANTLY. Why is that?

Please reread this and tell me what salient point was being made.


I love all the EC homers using Cal Poly's SOS as a knock against them, but not Lehigh. Monmouth? CCS? Columbia? Complete joke of a schedule, and the last time they played a team from a legit conference (NDSU) they got blown out of the water.

I'm not trying to argue that Lehigh has played NDSU every week, but "complete joke of a schedule" is particularly rich coming from the fan of a team that lost to Southern Utah and North Dakota in consecutive weeks. Princeton would handily beat the two teams that just beat them.

[Grizalltheway]

Please reread this and tell me what salient point was being made.



I'm not trying to argue that Lehigh has played NDSU every week, but "complete joke of a schedule" is particularly rich coming from the fan of a team that lost to Southern Utah and North Dakota in consecutive weeks. Princeton would handily beat the two teams that just beat them.

My main point was that some posters/voters clearly aren't judging Poly and Lehigh by the same criteria.
And again, the lackluster performance by the Griz this season has nothing to do with that point.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think it happens because there is no argument left to make. It's a defense mechanism when these folks get backed into a corner.

I'm not surprised to see it happen with posters from the traditional powers. But from Patriot League and OVC posers?

Said the fan of a team who is a conference loss to Wagner away from possibly not even making the playoffs at all. If said upset happens, I'm sure we'll be getting posts waxing philosophic on the relative merits of beating Duquesne and 2-5 Maine.

[danefan]

Please reread this and tell me what salient point was being made.



I'm not trying to argue that Lehigh has played NDSU every week, but "complete joke of a schedule" is particularly rich coming from the fan of a team that lost to Southern Utah and North Dakota in consecutive weeks. Princeton would handily beat the two teams that just beat them.

xlolx

No basis in fact to argue that at all.

I rest my case. Its a defense mechanism.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My main point was that some posters/voters clearly aren't judging Poly and Lehigh by the same criteria.

I'll tell you, it's awfully hard to judge. Personally I have Poly at No. 4 in my poll about five spots ahead of Lehigh, so I have some idea how good they are.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I think it happens because there is no argument left to make. It's a defense mechanism when these folks get backed into a corner.

I'm not surprised to see it happen with posters from the traditional powers. But from Patriot League and OVC posers?

You did realize that I was doing my reply as a joke right after making that same point correct? I can't tell if you got it or thought I was being serious?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

xlolx

No basis in fact to argue that at all.

I rest my case. Its a defense mechanism.

Massey

4-2 Princeton 35
4-4 North Dakota 37
3-5 Southern Utah 46

http://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm

[Lehigh'98]

All this crap will be sorted out in a few weeks on the field.

[danefan]

Massey

4-2 Princeton 35
4-4 North Dakota 37
3-5 Southern Utah 46

http://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm

Massey is not fact. Its primarily computer averaging. Garbage in -- Garbage out. Just like the GPI.

This is especially true when talking about the Ivys.

[danefan]

You did realize that I was doing my reply as a joke right after making that same point correct? I can't tell if you got it or thought I was being serious?

Yes. I saw it.

I wasn't referring to you when I said the "traditional power" comment.

[RichH2]

Polls do make people a bit contentious, I see. More national schedules would answer most of these quibbles. Given all our budgets not likely except for $$ games. Alas and alack for poor Peay. But we do have expanded playoffs. Much better to settle these issues on the field.

[Grizalltheway]

Polls do make people a bit contentious, I see. More national schedules would answer most of these quibbles. Given all our budgets not likely except for $$ games. Alas and alack for poor Peay. But we do have expanded playoffs. Much better to settle these issues on the field.

I agree. Thankfully, polls become even more meaningless once the regular season ends.xthumbsupx

[darell1976]

Cal Poly IMO is a top 5 team.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree. Thankfully, polls become even more meaningless once the regular season ends.xthumbsupx

+1

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Massey is not fact. Its primarily computer averaging. Garbage in -- Garbage out. Just like the GPI.

This is especially true when talking about the Ivys.

It's just an opinion, based on formulas. But most importantly, it's not "no argument".

[MSUBobcat]

Said the fan of a team who is a conference loss to Wagner away from possibly not even making the playoffs at all. If said upset happens, I'm sure we'll be getting posts waxing philosophic on the relative merits of beating Duquesne and 2-5 Maine.

Again with bringing up a team that wasn't in the original argument. xnonono2x FWIW, I have NEVER seen a UAlbany fan state that they would get an at-large. Quite the contrary actually. They fully admit they must win the AQ to make the playoffs. Furthermore, I have seen quite a few cases where Dane fans think their OWN TEAM is overrated.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Again with bringing up a team that wasn't in the original argument. xnonono2x FWIW, I have NEVER seen a UAlbany fan state that they would get an at-large. Quite the contrary actually. They fully admit they must win the AQ to make the playoffs. Furthermore, I have seen quite a few cases where Dane fans think their OWN TEAM is overrated.

You honestly think if their team is 9-2 that they will be saying that they shouldn't be in the playoffs?

[MSUBobcat]

You honestly think if their team is 9-2 that they will be saying that they shouldn't be in the playoffs?

There are always homer fans who feel they are getting a raw deal, but I think most will probably admit they don't have a real quality win and losing late in the year cost them. Similar to the PL, if you end up 9-2 w/o a signature win and lose one of your last 3 games, you shouldn't be waiting by the phone on Selection Sunday, as an 8-3 team w/ an FBS loss and 2 losses to ranked teams will probably get your spot. Time will tell I guess. xtwocentsx

[danefan]

You honestly think if their team is 9-2 that they will be saying that they shouldn't be in the playoffs?

Albany should not expect an at-large. No one from the NEC or Patriot League should unless thy have multiple strong OOC wins. Win the AQ or go home. If you can't go can't win either league than you aren't deserving.

If one is given, it's a pure gift from either the Committee or from the stronger conferences that beat each other up in conference and fail to produce enough 7-win teams. Just like the MEAC at-larges have been.

[danefan]

Said the fan of a team who is a conference loss to Wagner away from possibly not even making the playoffs at all. If said upset happens, I'm sure we'll be getting posts waxing philosophic on the relative merits of beating Duquesne and 2-5 Maine.

Exhibit #16

[RichH2]

Why is it that so many count FBS losses as the holy grail for playoff selection? They are $$ games for which they are well paid. The rest of us should bow down to them . There are very few "good" losses. School wants $$ , thats fine by me. Heck I hope we get a few. You also want credit for losing that game. Too greedy. Give you lots of credit for winning one not for getting paid to lose one.

[MSUBobcat]

You honestly think if their team is 9-2 that they will be saying that they shouldn't be in the playoffs?

To be honest, if Lehigh lost BAD at home to Colgate, who lost to a horrible USD team, to lose the PL AQ, I'd have a hard time not calling a 10-1 Lehigh a bubble team. No signature wins, close wins against not very good opponents and lose big at home to a team that lost to the MVFC's worst team = not very impressive resume. xtwocentsx

[MSUBobcat]

Why is it that so many count FBS losses as the holy grail for playoff selection? They are $$ games for which they are well paid. The rest of us should bow down to them . There are very few "good" losses. School wants $$ , thats fine by me. Heck I hope we get a few. You also want credit for losing that game. Too greedy. Give you lots of credit for winning one not for getting paid to lose one.

Do you have specific examples of this??? xdontknowx I wasn't really aware that FBS losses BOOSTED your credibility for the playoffs.

[WileECoyote06]

Albany should not expect an at-large. No one from the NEC or Patriot League should unless thy have multiple strong OOC wins. Win the AQ or go home. If you can't go can't win either league than you aren't deserving.

If one is given, it's a pure gift from either the Committee or from the stronger conferences that beat each other up in conference and fail to produce enough 7-win teams. Just like the MEAC at-larges have been.

Wait. . .didn't yall just say. . . .xeyebrowx




xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Albany should not expect an at-large. No one from the NEC or Patriot League should unless thy have multiple strong OOC wins. Win the AQ or go home. If you can't go can't win either league than you aren't deserving.

If one is given, it's a pure gift from either the Committee or from the stronger conferences that beat each other up in conference and fail to produce enough 7-win teams. Just like the MEAC at-larges have been.

The PL received at large bids when the field was 16 teams doing the same things they are now. You might not like it but it really doesn't mean anything.

[danefan]

Wait. . .didn't yall just say. . . .xeyebrowx




xlolx

Completely different. Read what we were saying again.

[RichH2]

MSUbobcat,
Not saying that FBS boosted chances , just that many posters want credit for them.

[heath]

Seriously what does this type of thing have to do with anything else being discussed? What is it about some of you guys wanting to try to turn a normal argument into a pissing match about what some other posters individual team is doing when they are not using it as a comparison in the argument?

Oh well, if those of us that should have good arguments and the ability to discuss a point of view are not gonna then fair enough let's just go with the lowest common denominator huh?

My reply is as such:

The Griz are playing a real schedule and have some losses and can not fall back on a Lehigh type schedule to buoy them.xthumbsupx

xlolxone of the smart guys enter the thread when his team is mentioned.You can only play the teams on your schedule and its up to the team to take care of business.I guess your real schedule was too tough this yearxbawlingx.............the old saying,"scoreboard?"
P.S.-If someone had voted Cal Poly #1 the first week on AGS,would you have included their vote?

[WrenFGun]

Please reread this and tell me what salient point was being made.



I'm not trying to argue that Lehigh has played NDSU every week, but "complete joke of a schedule" is particularly rich coming from the fan of a team that lost to Southern Utah and North Dakota in consecutive weeks. Princeton would handily beat the two teams that just beat them.

I honestly have no idea what you're saying. There is no comparison between North Dakota and SUU and the three teams you listed. Which teams as good as an FBS or Montana have those teams beaten?

[coover]

Suppose both Cal Poly and Lehigh make the playoffs. Suppose Lehigh at home. Who will be the favorite and what will be the point spread? Suppose Cal Poly at home. Same question.

[Twentysix]

As of right now? CP home nuet or away. Doesn't mean Lehigh couldn't win, I just wouldn't pick them going in.

[RichH2]

Well thank heavens for multiple polls. What would everyone have to b!tch about on a Monday.xlolx:)

[WrenFGun]

Suppose both Cal Poly and Lehigh make the playoffs. Suppose Lehigh at home. Who will be the favorite and what will be the point spread? Suppose Cal Poly at home. Same question.

Honestly, I have no idea. Lehigh HAS talent, there's no doubt; they just haven't played anyone to show it so I don't have any idea.

Polling for me is about resume because it's the only thing I can measure. Lehigh could ABSOLUTELY be a better team than CP, I just have no idea because their resume is mediocre. There are teams that have proven more about their teams that I would be able to compare more ably that for some reason are ranked lower than Lehigh.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

xlolxone of the smart guys enter the thread when his team is mentioned.You can only play the teams on your schedule and its up to the team to take care of business.I guess your real schedule was too tough this yearxbawlingx.............the old saying,"scoreboard?"
P.S.-If someone had voted Cal Poly #1 the first week on AGS,would you have included their vote?

As usual Keith you don't understand what is going on.

You don't need to worry about the poll cuz you have no skin in the game and your opinion just doesn't matter. But yes, it would have been allowed and in fact Cal Poly votes for #1 were allowed back when it wasn't fashionable among most voters.

You really have some sort of cause with the poll huh? Good for you lad.

[WileECoyote06]

Completely different. Read what we were saying again.

Lighten up bro. . I was just teasing.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Suppose both Cal Poly and Lehigh make the playoffs. Suppose Lehigh at home. Who will be the favorite and what will be the point spread? Suppose Cal Poly at home. Same question.

I have CP #4 and Lehigh #8. I think it be a great game and I would favor the home team. Lehigh would be in contention in BSC this year. Their defense would give teams fits as would their skill positions. One thing that should/would help Lehigh in the playoffs is their experience. They have a ton of guys that have played key roles the last two years. The cumulative affect of the bulls-eye and playoff games at UNI, Delaware, Towson and NDSU will help.

Lehigh will go as far as Colvin takes them. Getting Spadola back will certainly help.

[ITmonarch10]

Do you have specific examples of this??? xdontknowx I wasn't really aware that FBS losses BOOSTED your credibility for the playoffs.

Does a FBS win boost your credibility with the playoff selection committee. Seriously, it doesn't seem to mean crap in the TSN and coaches polls compared to beating top rated FCS team. Maybe i'm just being a moron ,but is it possible the playoff committee/coaches/tsn pollsters just leave out FBS wins/losses to make it easier to tell how good that team is. Army, Colorado State, Wyoming, Idaho, ect are some of the worse FBS teams around and im curious on how one quantifies that during playoff selection. You can't even use a FBS win to replace an FCS win to reach the magically 7 fcs win requirement.

[tingly]

I've always understood that wins against FBS teams count towards the 7. I bet i'm wrong cuz everyone has been saying the opposite, but the manual reads like that's the case.

[danefan]

Does a FBS win boost your credibility with the playoff selection committee. Seriously, it doesn't seem to mean crap in the TSN and coaches polls compared to beating top rated FCS team. Maybe i'm just being a moron ,but is it possible the playoff committee/coaches/tsn pollsters just leave out FBS wins/losses to make it easier to tell how good that team is. Army, Colorado State, Wyoming, Idaho, ect are some of the worse FBS teams around and im curious on how one quantifies that during playoff selection. You can't even use a FBS win to replace an FCS win to reach the magically 7 fcs win requirement.

What? Seven DI wins. Counts both FCS and FBS.

[tingly]

...except danefan

[danefan]

...except danefan

I'm always right.

Ignore everyone else.

[MSUBobcat]

What? Seven DI wins. Counts both FCS and FBS.

Agreed. FBS is still D-I (that's why the "S" stands for "SUB-division) and counts toward the 7 win requirement, though it's looking like 8 wins may be the REAL requirement this year. An FBS loss should NOT help you in the polls, unless its something like a 3 pt loss to Florida.

[MTfan4life]

Does a FBS win boost your credibility with the playoff selection committee.

Oddly enough, yes it does. Last season the committee used SHSU's FBS win as part of their argument for why they seeded them number one. Their FBS win was against a team who had one of the worst seasons in recent FBS history, but that didn't matter to the committee.

[HensRock]

Massey

4-2 Princeton 35
4-4 North Dakota 37
3-5 Southern Utah 46

http://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm

Born:

Montana 26
North Dakota 35
Southern Utah 36
Princeton 40
Lehigh 53

http://www.bornpowerindex.com/

[Engineer86]

Massey is not fact. Its primarily computer averaging. Garbage in -- Garbage out. Just like the GPI.

This is especially true when talking about the Ivys.

Here is a different kind of defense mechanism seen all the time on this board. If something does not support my argument "it is garbage"

As for the responsive "take a shot at their team" it is like the retaliator get caught penalty. Both guys are taking a shot at the other's team.

I would also call the " that's a defense mechanism" claim is just another defense mechanism. Lets face it they are all opinions, in some cases driven by being a fan.

[kalm]

Just for argument's sake, how does a narrow FBS loss to a decent team compare to a win against a PL, NEC, Big South etc FCS team?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I've always understood that wins against FBS teams count towards the 7. I bet i'm wrong cuz everyone has been saying the opposite, but the manual reads like that's the case.

I'm not sure who you've been reading because that information would be false if someone is saying that wins against FBS don't count and so many of us like correcting misinformation I'm not sure how could stand for more than a minute or two without being shot down?

One thing you could be confusing is that people like to put forth close losses to FBS teams as if they were a win or that the committee will look favorably upon on that and we've not seen much of that if any from the committee so that gets shot down as wishful thinking.

D2 wins and FBS losses are not counted when it comes to the committee selections. The thing I hate every damn year is people come in and try a make a case for a team with a D2 win on their slate as an extra win. That's complete horse**** and if you are putting your record up then it should be done without the D2 counted at all.

In other words a team that is 8-3 with a D2 victory is 7-3 in the committee's eyes so don't try getting over that the reccord is 8-3 cuz it isn't.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Just for argument's sake, how does a narrow FBS loss to a decent team compare to a win against a PL, NEC, Big South etc FCS team?

You'd rather be the team that played the NEC, PL, or Big South team in that scenario.

[sgt smash]

Just for argument's sake, how does a narrow FBS loss to a decent team compare to a win against a PL, NEC, Big South etc FCS team?

A loss to Washinton State sure doesn't help.

[IBleedYellow]

In other words a team that is 8-3 with a D2 victory is 7-3 in the committee's eyes so don't try getting over that the reccord is 8-3 cuz it isn't.

This x1000

[kalm]

You'd rather be the team that played the NEC, PL, or Big South team in that scenario.

Yes in regards to the playoffs, but how about from a voting standpoint?

[Engineer86]

Honestly, I have no idea. Lehigh HAS talent, there's no doubt; they just haven't played anyone to show it so I don't have any idea.

Polling for me is about resume because it's the only thing I can measure. Lehigh could ABSOLUTELY be a better team than CP, I just have no idea because their resume is mediocre. There are teams that have proven more about their teams that I would be able to compare more ably that for some reason are ranked lower than Lehigh.

Football schedules are put together years in advance. When Lehigh scheduled Liberty, it was likely when Liberty was at its best. It is hard to see where teams will be. Also, unlike UNH there are regional good FCS teams that will not agree to home and home games, they will only take their single home games so they have their 7 home games every year.

So to rank teams based only on schedules that were put in place years ago, it is tough. I am not arguing Lehigh should be higher than 10-15 range, but I base that on their inconsistent play, not the schedule they play.

[kalm]

Football schedules are put together years in advance. When Lehigh scheduled Liberty, it was likely when Liberty was at its best. It is hard to see where teams will be. Also, unlike UNH there are regional good FCS teams that will not agree to home and home games, they will only take their single home games so they have their 7 home games every year.

So to rank teams based only on schedules that were put in place years ago, it is tough. I am not arguing Lehigh should be higher than 10-15 range, but I base that on their inconsistent play, not the schedule they play.

Cough, cough...Delaware...cough, cough:D

[HensRock]

Massey

4-2 Princeton 35
4-4 North Dakota 37
3-5 Southern Utah 46

http://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm

Now that I look again, those aren't even Massey's Rating's. Those are composite scores which includes some pretty wild sources.
Massey himself ranks them as follows:

Massey:

North Dakota 26
Southern Utah 39
Lehigh 40
Montana 41
Princeton 44

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yes in regards to the playoffs, but how about from a voting standpoint?

Toss up in my mind for the most part. I don't know about everyone else but playing close is only slightly better than losing by a couple of touchdowns to an FBS.

It has a "suds" effect later in the year in the polls if a team like Towson were to be beating the rest of the CAA opponents they would be way up in the top 5 range and a close game against LSU would have tipped the scales in an internal argument between a GSU/Cal Polly etc. type placement and Towson would be getting the nod from me probably.

[HensRock]

D2 wins and FBS losses are not counted when it comes to the committee selections.

Fully agree w/ D2 wins, but I have never heard that FBS losses do not count. Are you saying a team that is 8-3 with an FBS loss is treated as 8-2?
I do not think that is the case. All Div-I games count. All non-Div-I losses count.

[ITmonarch10]

Fully agree w/ D2 wins, but I have never heard that FBS losses do not count. Are you saying a team that is 8-3 with an FBS loss is treated as 8-2?
I do not think that is the case. All Div-I games count. All non-Div-I losses count.

Do you think GSU would of been a #2 seed instead of a #3 seed last year if they had not of played Bama and won another FCS game?

[ITmonarch10]

Oddly enough, yes it does. Last season the committee used SHSU's FBS win as part of their argument for why they seeded them number one. Their FBS win was against a team who had one of the worst seasons in recent FBS history, but that didn't matter to the committee.

I thought it was more so because they were unbeaten in a decent conference and everyone else had at least 1 loss.

[HensRock]

Do you think GSU would of been a #2 seed instead of a #3 seed last year if they had not of played Bama and won another FCS game?

Quite possibly, yes. But I don't see how that matters.
The difference between a #2 and #3 seed has more to do with their bid and quality of facilities than merit on the field.

Besides, we are talking about SELECTION CRITERIA to the playoffs here, not PAIRINGS - Two completely different animals.

The NCAA Selection Criteria for the FCS Playoffs makes absolutely NO distinction between FCS and FBS games. The phrase "Division I games". is used throughout. So I stand by my statement: All Division I games count toward (or against) playoff selection. You don't get to ignore FBS losses.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Fully agree w/ D2 wins, but I have never heard that FBS losses do not count. Are you saying a team that is 8-3 with an FBS loss is treated as 8-2?
I do not think that is the case. All Div-I games count. All non-Div-I losses count.

Well I overstated that a bit apparently. An 8-3 team with an FBS loss is treated a little better than an 8-3 team with all FCS losses is more what I was going for there but the FBS losses are not considered very heavily by the committee from what I've heard and what I've seen.

Where I've heard it was from an interview with a committee member years back just so that doesn't sound like some idle gossip around the bar or something like that.

[ITmonarch10]

Well I overstated that a bit apparently. An 8-3 team with an FBS loss is treated a little better than an 8-3 team with all FCS losses is more what I was going for there but the FBS losses are not considered very heavily by the committee from what I've heard and what I've seen.

Where I've heard it was from an interview with a committee member years back just so that doesn't sound like some idle gossip around the bar or something like that.

So if Towson were to win out and become 7-4 ,but with 2 FBS losses. How would that be looked at by the committee compared to an 8-3 all fcs losses team from a power conference? Are they 7-2, 7-3ish(2 FBS loss = 1 FCS loss), 7-2-2 (FBS loss counts as a tie) or are they even considered because they are 7-4 in a year in which it looks to be nothing but 8-3 or better teams. Is their some official guidelines I'm missing or is this information just based off what ags gathered from past selections.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

So if Towson were to win out and become 7-4 ,but with 2 FBS losses. How would that be looked at by the committee compared to an 8-3 all fcs losses team from a power conference? Are they 7-2, 7-3ish(2 FBS loss = 1 FCS loss), 7-2-2 (FBS loss counts as a tie) or are they even considered because they are 7-4 in a year in which it looks to be nothing but 8-3 or better teams. Is their some official guidelines I'm missing or is this information just based off what ags gathered from past selections.

Take this as only what I've seen and from my perspective on past occurences and not as if I'm speaking from any sort of position of knowing what will be done.

I think that IF Towson gets to 7 wins they will be looked at as if they are on equal footing with an 8-3 team with an all FCS schedule.

[RichH2]

I guess we should make this thread a Monday regular at least for the regular season. Vitriol, gibberish, fantasy, some real facts sprinkled here and there,West vs East, rampant speculation.
Whatever will we talk about tomorrow.xlolx

[HensRock]

I think it would depend on the relative quality of the FBS teams in question. I don't think the committe is going to give an FCS a whole lot of credit for beating a terrible FBS team and certainly none for losing to one. And what you heard ursus might apply to PAIRING (where they assign seeds and such), but not to SELECTION of the 10 At-Large teams. The Handbook reads as a set of "guidelines" as opposed to hard-and-fast rules. But we all also know that the committee has never deviated from the 7 Division I win "guideline".

For those that have not seen it, or don't remember, here is the Selection Criteria for the 10 At-Large teams (this was taken from the 2011 Handbook)


At-large teams shall be selected by the Division I football committee, assisted by four regional advisory committees that serve in an advisory capacity only.
The following principles shall apply when selecting at-large teams:
1. The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to
complete the bracket. Per NCAA Bylaw 31, the basic criteria used in the selection
of at-large participants are (1) won-lost record, (2) strength-of-schedule, and (3)
eligibility and availability of student-athletes for the NCAA championship;
2. There is no limit to the number of teams the committee may select from one conference;
3. The won-lost record of a team will be scrutinized to determine a team’s strength of
schedule; however, less than seven Division I wins may place a team in jeopardy of
not being selected;
4. The committee may give more consideration to those teams that have played all
Division I opponents; and
5. If the team of a committee member is under consideration, the member may not vote
for the team being considered and will not be in the room when a vote is taken.
6. For those conferences that qualify for automatic qualification but do not receive it,
a guaranteed at-large position shall be awarded in any year in which its conference
champion team meets all of the following conditions:
a. Team wins a minimum of eight Division I games during the season;
b. Team wins a minimum of two non-conference games against Division I teams
representing a conference that has earned an automatic qualification in that year;
and
c. Team finishes the season ranked 20 or higher in an average of the last regular-
season media, coaches and/or computer polls (which will be determined by
the committee on an annual basis). For 2011, the media poll will be the Sports
Network Poll, the coaches poll will be the FCS Coaches poll and the computer
poll will be a variation of the Gridiron Power Index – using only the following
computer rankings: The Massey Ratings, Wolfe Rankings, Ashburn Rankings,
Self Rankings and the Laz Index.

[GannonFan]

Cough, cough...Delaware...cough, cough:D

They shouldn't have ended the series with us back in the day when it was a home and home then. If that series had continued, it would still be a home and home today. Once the series ended, all bets were off.