Davidson Football, Why can't they step up and play SoCon?

[GaSouthern]

I was thinking today, all this talk about adding a team to the SoCon, what is it exactly that is stopping davidson from starting up a scholly football team and playing SoCon ball? Elon needs some competition anyways! :rotateh:

[walliver]

Like most smaller high academics institutions, Davidson has had its share of professors etc who oppose scholarship football as evil. Unlike most of the other schools in the area, Davidson gave in to the academic snobs. Of course, Davidson had let its football team go to pot long before dropping scholarships.

I really wish they would bring back scholarship football, however. The Davidson game was one that most Wofford fans looked forward to. It was also a big game for Furman. Unfortunately, I'm afraid scholarship football is dead at Davidson.

[vmisport]

I was thinking today, all this talk about adding a team to the SoCon, what is it exactly that is stopping davidson from starting up a scholly football team and playing SoCon ball? Elon needs some competition anyways! :rotateh:
Davidson made the decision many years ago that its small size, lack of resources that it wanted to commit to football, and its desire not to compromise its academic standards for its football program, prevented it from being successful in that sport and decided not to fund schoarship football. The school seems to be very comfortable with this decision.

[nlwwln]

it would be nice to see them be more competitive on their level but unfortunatly they cant even seem to do that, maybe a change in coaching staff would breath some life into the program. Mid major football is making some strides and it seems like the schools that have choosen to take their programs seriously have found that it has alot of benefits not only with athletics but within the university as well. If nothing else it would generate some more excitement around the davidson community and could eventually start scheduling some of the top 1aa teams in their region.

[rcny46]

When I was at The Citadel in the mid 60's,they were a member of the old SC,along with the Bulldogs,East Carolina,George Washington,William & Mary,VMI and a couple of others(I think) that I've managed to forget over the years.

[Go...gate]

They were pretty good in the late 1960's - I remember they went to the Tangerine (now the Outback) Bowl and lost to MAC Champion Toledo. DC was led by a quarterback by the name of Gordon Slade who I believe was All-SoCon and later on the Taxi Squad of the Baltimore Colts in 1970 or 1971.

[DFW HOYA]

At first, I was going to say that Davidson's not in the SoCon for the same reason Georgetown doesn't play football in the Big East.

In Davidson's case, I think the cost of the scholarship commitment wasn't justified in the cost to the school and the revenue it generated. Richardson Field (in its earlier days) was suitable for SoCon games.

In Georgetown's case, the hurdles are not only scholarships, but facilities, staff, and program support. Every Georgetown sport is already behind the curve financially (even basketball), so the concept of a $10-15 million a year football program, while you could argue for it on a practical sake(balancing TV revenues against costs) it's not really practical right now.

Does the argument change if the Big East tells Georgetown and Villanova to upgrade or leave altogether? Not likely, but that's for another discussion.

[Mr. C]

Davidson just made the choice to put more of its resources into sports like basketball, rather than football. Davidson's move was similar to that of VMI before the Keydets left for the Big South. Davidson was getting killed on the football field, just like VMI, and decided to go non-scholarship. When Davidson made this move, which violated the SoCon membership by-laws, the Wildcats were kicked out of the league. Several years later, Davidson asked for a special dispensation to rejoin in all of the other sports and the SoCon membership decided to do this. That ultimately led to College of Charleston and UNC-Greensboro being admitted in 1997, primarily to strenghten the SoCon as a basketball conference. Ironically, the conference then rejected VMI's bid to drop out for football in 2002, leading to the Keydets' departure to the Big South and Elon's acceptance in 2003. Then the SoCon had no choice but to kick out East Tennessee State when Chancellor Paul Staton dropped the Bucs' football program.

[OL FU]

Furman v Davidson


11/08/1986 59-0 W
10/05/1985 58-7 W
11/03/1984 55-7 W
10/29/1983 55-7 W
10/30/1982 63-14 W
11/07/1981 30-12 W
11/08/1980 21-7 W
11/03/1979 63-55 W
11/04/1978 56-14 W
10/13/1973 38-7 W

It would be even worse now. :smiley_wi

[vmisport]

Davidson just made the choice to put more of its resources into sports like basketball, rather than football. Davidson's move was similar to that of VMI before the Keydets left for the Big South. Davidson was getting killed on the football field, just like VMI, and decided to go non-scholarship. When Davidson made this move, which violated the SoCon membership by-laws, the Wildcats were kicked out of the league. Several years later, Davidson asked for a special dispensation to rejoin in all of the other sports and the SoCon membership decided to do this. That ultimately led to College of Charleston and UNC-Greensboro being admitted in 1997, primarily to strenghten the SoCon as a basketball conference. Ironically, the conference then rejected VMI's bid to drop out for football in 2002, leading to the Keydets' departure to the Big South and Elon's acceptance in 2003. Then the SoCon had no choice but to kick out East Tennessee State when Chancellor Paul Staton dropped the Bucs' football program.
It is my understanding that VMI was going to petition the SC to play part of the slate each year allowing the school to 1) play all in state schools like JMU, W&M, and UR, and 2) still have about 4 games on the schedule that were very winnable. The full slate of SC games would not give you that flexibility. If you look at Keydet's schedule this year, it is as tough as any year and will be a big challenge given the graduation of many seniors last year. VMI plays those 3 in state foes, Citadel, as well as Army. In essence, VMI has switched playing GSU, Furman, WCU, and Wofford (which we played the last 2 years) for W&M, UR, JMU, and Army. I don't see much difference in strength of schedule.
Reid has a big challenge given the school's mission to recruit and retain the student athletes to make VMI competitive. He is up to the task but it may take a couple of years for him to recruit his players and implement his offense and defense

[OL FU]

It is my understanding that VMI was going to petition the SC to play part of the slate each year allowing the school to 1) play all in state schools like JMU, W&M, and UR, and 2) still have about 4 games on the schedule that were very winnable. The full slate of SC games would not give you that flexibility. If you look at Keydet's schedule this year, it is as tough as any year and will be a big challenge given the graduation of many seniors last year. VMI plays those 3 in state foes, Citadel, as well as Army. In essence, VMI has switched playing GSU, Furman, WCU, and Wofford (which we played the last 2 years) for W&M, UR, JMU, and Army. I don't see much difference in strength of schedule.
Reid has a big challenge given the school's mission to recruit and retain the student athletes to make VMI competitive. He is up to the task but it may take a couple of years for him to recruit his players and implement his offense and defense

My comment is less about VMI and more about the other schools ( except for army)

On a year in, year out basis yes the SOS went down due to the schools mention (UR, WM and JMU are all great programs but have not been as consistently good as the SoCon's they replaced and you should probably should consider that you quit playing FU, GSU and ASU instead of the ones mentioned) and also because the mid and lower level Socon is much better than most of the BSouth.

[Linehawg]

My comment is less about VMI and more about the other schools ( except for army)

On a year in, year out basis yes the SOS went down due to the schools mention (UR, WM and JMU are all great programs but have not been as consistently good as the SoCon's they replaced and you should probably should consider that you quit playing FU, GSU and ASU instead of the ones mentioned) and also because the mid and lower level Socon is much better than most of the BSouth.

I'm not real sure about that. The A-10 has been gaining a lot of strength in recent years and the SOS impact in the near term seems to be a plus for VMI.

[Mr. C]

Furman v Davidson


11/08/1986 59-0 W
10/05/1985 58-7 W
11/03/1984 55-7 W
10/29/1983 55-7 W
10/30/1982 63-14 W
11/07/1981 30-12 W
11/08/1980 21-7 W
11/03/1979 63-55 W
11/04/1978 56-14 W
10/13/1973 38-7 W

It would be even worse now. :smiley_wi
1979: 63-55. Did I read that right? That would be a lot of points for a Davidson-Furman basketball game now. Were you at that game?

[Mr. C]

It is my understanding that VMI was going to petition the SC to play part of the slate each year allowing the school to 1) play all in state schools like JMU, W&M, and UR, and 2) still have about 4 games on the schedule that were very winnable. The full slate of SC games would not give you that flexibility. If you look at Keydet's schedule this year, it is as tough as any year and will be a big challenge given the graduation of many seniors last year. VMI plays those 3 in state foes, Citadel, as well as Army. In essence, VMI has switched playing GSU, Furman, WCU, and Wofford (which we played the last 2 years) for W&M, UR, JMU, and Army. I don't see much difference in strength of schedule.
Reid has a big challenge given the school's mission to recruit and retain the student athletes to make VMI competitive. He is up to the task but it may take a couple of years for him to recruit his players and implement his offense and defense
It is my opinion and a lot of other people's as well that VMI should have stayed in the SoCon. They were charter members for crying out loud. I think a lot of VMI people think it was a mistake to leave.

[OL FU]

I'm not real sure about that. The A-10 has been gaining a lot of strength in recent years and the SOS impact in the near term seems to be a plus for VMI.

The A-10 yes but as we have said the A-10 spreads it around. If VMI played the top three teams in the A-10 every year I would agree. UR, JMU and WM are not necesarily the best in the A-10 year in and and year out. Those three teams have not shown year end and year out that they would be as good as the big three in the Socon.

[OL FU]

1979: 63-55. Did I read that right? That would be a lot of points for a Davidson-Furman basketball game now. Were you at that game?


It was an away game and I was a very broke senior:)

[Mr. C]

I'm not real sure about that. The A-10 has been gaining a lot of strength in recent years and the SOS impact in the near term seems to be a plus for VMI.
Let's see, since VMI left the SoCon, Richmond has had one good year (last year's A-10 co-champs and playoff quarter-finalist). James Madison has made it to the playoff once (in 2004) and won the national championship. The Dukes also went 7-4 last year with a decent team. William & Mary made it to the semifinals (farthest the Tribe has ever gone) in 2004 and had decent, not great teams the other years.

ASU, Furman and Georgia Southern, meanwhile are among the best teams in the country, year-in and year-out. Of course, in most years, VMI has little chance of beating any of those six teams (no smack, just facts).

[Marcus Garvey]

Does the argument change if the Big East tells Georgetown and Villanova to upgrade or leave altogether? Not likely, but that's for another discussion.

This is off the thread topic, but I don't see the Big East remaining together as a 16 team "olympic" sport league. I predict the non-football members of the leage ('Nova, G'town, Seton Hall, St. John's, Marquette, DePaul, Providence and Notre Dame) will leave to form their own all-sport (except football) conference. Call it the "Catholic Confederation" if you will. The other 8 football members still make up a formidable basketball conference.

[dbackjon]

This is off the thread topic, but I don't see the Big East remaining together as a 16 team "olympic" sport league. I predict the non-football members of the leage ('Nova, G'town, Seton Hall, St. John's, Marquette, DePaul, Providence and Notre Dame) will leave to form their own all-sport (except football) conference. Call it the "Catholic Confederation" if you will. The other 8 football members still make up a formidable basketball conference.

I see that happening as well, in 5-10 years - with a major domino effect that will reach I-AA conferences. 8 teams is too few, so both halves will try to add 1-2 new members - the football playing schools going after teams like Memphis and UCF from C-USA (which in turn will try to add a couple of members from the Sunbelt or MAC). The Catholic schools will add other like-minded schools, like a Detroit/Loyola-Chicago (From Horizon), or Dayton/Xavier/St. Josephs/LaSalle/St. Louis (from A-10). Each of the raided conferences would then raid a lower conference (like Mid-Con, etc.

[Go...gate]

Never realized that VMI was a charter member of the SoCon. IMHO, they would be a great fit in the Patriot League for all sports.

[DFW HOYA]

I predict the non-football members of the leage ('Nova, G'town, Seton Hall, St. John's, Marquette, DePaul, Providence and Notre Dame) will leave to form their own all-sport (except football) conference. Call it the "Catholic Confederation" if you will.

Georgetown would want no part of such an arrangement. None.

Neither would Villanova.

These schools are not going to get up and leave and to do so would bankrupt their programs.

[OL FU]

Never realized that VMI was a charter member of the SoCon. IMHO, they would be a great fit in the Patriot League for all sports.

Mr. C is correct philosophically, maybe not technically.

SoCon formed in 1921, VMI joined in 1925. Until their departure they were the oldest member of the conference.

[Marcus Garvey]

Georgetown would want no part of such an arrangement. None.

Neither would Villanova.

These schools are not going to get up and leave and to do so would bankrupt their programs.

I wouldn't say "never." Those 8 non-football schools are all marquis basketball names. A few deep runs in the NCAA tourney by the Catholic contingent of the conference, and they'd be very attractive to TV networks as a league with which to make a big $$$ deal. If a major network offers enough money, it'll happen. You're kidding yourself to think otherwise.

[SouthernEagle02]

Why would we want to add Davidson to the SoCon football lineup? The whole point in adding a new school to a conference, aside from $$$, is to strenghthen the conference, not take away imo. You take away GS, App, Furman & Wofford (every couple of years they produce a good club) and you really are left with non-competitive conference. I am by no means taking away from WCU, UTC, Elon, or the Citadel, but when you look at conference standings, which teams are ususally 1,2,3? I would much rather add Coastal and/or Jacksonville St before Davidson.

On a side note, I would love the SoCon to add two teams and create divisions like the SEC & A-10 therefore ending this whole Co-champ crap we've had the past couple of years. Here is my list if I was in charge.
East
Furman*
App*
WCU*
Elon*
Coastal

West
GS*
Wofford*
UTC*
Citadel*
Jacksonville St.

*denotes current SoCon member

[OL FU]

Why would we want to add Davidson to the SoCon football lineup? The whole point in adding a new school to a conference, aside from $$$, is to strenghthen the conference, not take away imo. You take away GS, App, Furman & Wofford (every couple of years they produce a good club) and you really are left with non-competitive conference. I am by no means taking away from WCU, UTC, Elon, or the Citadel, but when you look at conference standings, which teams are ususally 1,2,3? I would much rather add Coastal and/or Jacksonville St before Davidson.

On a side note, I would love the SoCon to add two teams and create divisions like the SEC & A-10 therefore ending this whole Co-champ crap we've had the past couple of years. Here is my list if I was in charge.
East
Furman*
App*
WCU*
Elon*
Coastal

West
GS*
Wofford*
UTC*
Citadel*
Jacksonville St.

*denotes current SoCon member

How do the divisions elminate the co-champs unless you have a champ game which in turn gets in the way of the play-offs?

PS Furman is farther west the Wofford:smiley_wi

[SouthernEagle02]

Fair enough. But just run with me here. We play the 12 game schedule, but the SoCon's madates that the last game be a conference game and it be played on a Wednesday or Thursday. That Saturday we play the conference champ game & the playoffs start like normal the following Saturday. Yes the two teams that play will have short rest, but the only alternative is that we (SoCon) cut back to 11 games and only play 7 conference games or the NCAA cuts the field from 16 to 8 teams in the playoff. Now grant it none of this will happen because A) we have the playoff system B) From what I'm hearing UTC may be leaving for the OVC C) It would probably cost too much. Just my :twocents:

[DFW HOYA]

I wouldn't say "never." Those 8 non-football schools are all marquis basketball names. A few deep runs in the NCAA tourney by the Catholic contingent of the conference, and they'd be very attractive to TV networks as a league with which to make a big $$$ deal. If a major network offers enough money, it'll happen. You're kidding yourself to think otherwise.

If it does, Georgetown would be well suited to stay right where they are.

Here's why--According to CNN, Georgetown was the only top-64 program in the nation to actually lose money on college basketball. How? Because the school does not have the money to build an on-campus gym suitable to host games (a long story of its own), it must pay huge rent payments to the MCI (Verizon) Center to host games, money that can't be spent on coaches salaries, recruiting, or even other sports (read=PL football).

What attendance it does get is significantly impacted by road crowds, and fans from Seton Hall, PC, et al. simply don't come close to the road crowds of Pitt, WV, UConn, Syracuse, etc.

The concern is that a schedule w/o Syr., UConn etc. causes a deflation of ticket revenues to which the school cannot dig itself out of. And it's not like they can pick up and play down the street, either.

At least Villanova can play on campus at the Pavilion, even if John DuPont never paid off his pledge for the building.

Now, back to Davidson.

[catdaddy2402]

This is off the thread topic, but I don't see the Big East remaining together as a 16 team "olympic" sport league. I predict the non-football members of the leage ('Nova, G'town, Seton Hall, St. John's, Marquette, DePaul, Providence and Notre Dame) will leave to form their own all-sport (except football) conference. Call it the "Catholic Confederation" if you will. The other 8 football members still make up a formidable basketball conference.


If there is a split in the Big East it will be initiated by the football schools in the conference, and will most likely stem from then only having 8 members and having to find 5 OOC games to play every year.

[OL FU]

If it does, Georgetown would be well suited to stay right where they are.

Here's why--According to CNN, Georgetown was the only top-64 program in the nation to actually lose money on college basketball. How? Because the school does not have the money to build an on-campus gym suitable to host games (a long story of its own), it must pay huge rent payments to the MCI (Verizon) Center to host games, money that can't be spent on coaches salaries, recruiting, or even other sports (read=PL football).

What attendance it does get is significantly impacted by road crowds, and fans from Seton Hall, PC, et al. simply don't come close to the road crowds of Pitt, WV, UConn, Syracuse, etc.

The concern is that a schedule w/o Syr., UConn etc. causes a deflation of ticket revenues to which the school cannot dig itself out of. And it's not like they can pick up and play down the street, either.

At least Villanova can play on campus at the Pavilion, even if John DuPont never paid off his pledge for the building.

Now, back to Davidson.

OK back to Davidson and the thread starter. Nothing would please me more than Davidson deciding to allocate the necesary resources to football to compete in the SoCon. However, they are not going to do that so we need to keep looking elsewhere:nod: