LFN: VMI to the Patriot League?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2012/03/vmi-to-patriot-league.html


When Lafayette president Daniel H. Weiss announced to the world that the Patriot League would be allowing schools to allow merit-based aid - i.e., allowing the same types of athletic scholarships that other FCS schools can offer - there was a lot of rejoicing with Patriot League fans for a variety of reasons.

"We make this decision in recognition that we believe that it will help the league to remain strong and competitive." he mentioned in his opening statement, "We believe over time what this decision is in the best interest of the league because it will help us with future membership prospects."

This past week, a subtle change to the Patriot League website seems to indicate that perhaps, just perhaps, that future membership prospects might be happening sooner rather than later.

Could a new member be joining the Patriot League by the 2013 season?

I think it's coming in 2013, and I think it's going to be VMI. You heard it here first.

[Libertine]

I'd say that this is beating a dead horse but that would imply the horse was actually once living in the first place. This is more like beating a horse-shaped pile of rocks.

[carney2]

Why not? It would be a great move for them. We've been through this before and all recognize it isn't perfect, but "perfect" won't be coming our way anytime soon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'd say that this is beating a dead horse but that would imply the horse was actually once living in the first place. This is more like beating a horse-shaped pile of rocks.

When it comes to the arguments, I sort-of agree. But the PL schedule change is not.

[DFW HOYA]

I appreciate the optimism, but there's far too much speculation right now without some more corroboration from media sources. There just hasn't been any media coverage in Lexington or wlsewhere which would suggest VMI is pursuing any conference affiliations outside the Big South.

In general, I would caution readers against the transitive property of conference realignment discussions. Examples follow, none of which seem imminent:

1. "There is talk that the Atlantic 10 moving to add schools where basketball is the dominant sport and the CAA will be repositioned for football-intensive programs. Fordham is committed to a football-intensive program within its athletic department. Is Fordham considering a move out of the A-10 for a football future in the CAA?"

2. The A-10 is worried that Massachusetts will leave the league to focus on Mid-American Conference football. Holy Cross has been identified as a replacement for the Massachusetts TV markets covered by UMass. Could HC replace UMass in the A-10?

3. Associate members are renewed on a three year basis within the PL. Georgetown's renewal period is up in 2012. The school has not committed to PL scholarship football, which begins after the 2012 season. Has Georgetown not committed to renew its PL membership after 2012?

[ngineer]

I appreciate the optimism, but there's far too much speculation right now without some more corroboration from media sources. There just hasn't been any media coverage in Lexington or wlsewhere which would suggest VMI is pursuing any conference affiliations outside the Big South.

In general, I would caution readers against the transitive property of conference realignment discussions. Examples follow, none of which seem imminent:

1. "There is talk that the Atlantic 10 moving to add schools where basketball is the dominant sport and the CAA will be repositioned for football-intensive programs. Fordham is committed to a football-intensive program within its athletic department. Is Fordham considering a move out of the A-10 for a football future in the CAA?"

2. The A-10 is worried that Massachusetts will leave the league to focus on Mid-American Conference football. Holy Cross has been identified as a replacement for the Massachusetts TV markets covered by UMass. Could HC replace UMass in the A-10?

3. Associate members are renewed on a three year basis within the PL. Georgetown's renewal period is up in 2012. The school has not committed to PL scholarship football, which begins after the 2012 season. Has Georgetown not committed to renew its PL membership after 2012?



Interesting observation. VMI may be the "Towson" of 2013 if the Hoyas decide to bolt.

[Wildcat80]

Interesting that UNH & Maine are listed as likely candidates too. Harvard's reaction is silly. Dartmouth, Penn & other Ivies have played CAA scholarship teams for years. What is the best program in the Ivy league afraid of--other than competition?

[Mr. C]

I'd say that this is beating a dead horse but that would imply the horse was actually once living in the first place. This is more like beating a horse-shaped pile of rocks.

Why is this a dead horse? There are some reasons to believe the Patriot League is looking to expand.

[Mr. C]

Interesting that UNH & Maine are listed as likely candidates too. Harvard's reaction is silly. Dartmouth, Penn & other Ivies have played CAA scholarship teams for years. What is the best program in the Ivy league afraid of--other than competition?

Movers and shakers that I know at Maine and New Hampshire tell me that both schools are very happy in the CAA for football. I would see the chances of either moving to the PL as slim and none.

[Libertine]

The Patriot may be looking to expand but any discussion of VMI leaving the Big South is pretty much limited to the same twelve people on their fan site and, apparently, LFN.

[kdinva]

The Patriot may be looking to expand but any discussion of VMI leaving the Big South is pretty much limited to the same twelve people on their fan site......

It's more like 19 :D no one in Lex. is talking, either......... xreadx

[DetroitFlyer]

I appreciate the optimism, but there's far too much speculation right now without some more corroboration from media sources. There just hasn't been any media coverage in Lexington or wlsewhere which would suggest VMI is pursuing any conference affiliations outside the Big South.

In general, I would caution readers against the transitive property of conference realignment discussions. Examples follow, none of which seem imminent:

1. "There is talk that the Atlantic 10 moving to add schools where basketball is the dominant sport and the CAA will be repositioned for football-intensive programs. Fordham is committed to a football-intensive program within its athletic department. Is Fordham considering a move out of the A-10 for a football future in the CAA?"

2. The A-10 is worried that Massachusetts will leave the league to focus on Mid-American Conference football. Holy Cross has been identified as a replacement for the Massachusetts TV markets covered by UMass. Could HC replace UMass in the A-10?

3. Associate members are renewed on a three year basis within the PL. Georgetown's renewal period is up in 2012. The school has not committed to PL scholarship football, which begins after the 2012 season. Has Georgetown not committed to renew its PL membership after 2012?


"Everyone" knows that Georgetown is going to join the PFL. Word on the street is that the PFL obtaining an autobid in 2013 has sealed the deal....

[RichH2]

That the PL is looking to expand is a given. Whether there is anyone interested in joining is not. While I have my hopes in that regard, I think it is unlikely that much will happen any time soon. PL is as well, whe prepared for expansion as it can possibly be, whether anyone comes calling depends on too many extraneous factors for any current speculation to be solid. It is interesting tho that PL pulled down all the OOC schedules. As there isno apparent reason to do so, it does make me wonder why.

[Tribe4SF]

"Everyone" knows that Georgetown is going to join the PFL. Word on the street is that the PFL obtaining an autobid in 2013 has sealed the deal....

What "everyone knows" these days is often based on the musings of bloggers who, in fact, usually know nothing. Best current example is VCU and George Mason vehemently denying that either has had any conversations with the A-10, and reiterating their commitment to the CAA. Georgetown certainly has some decisions to make, and it wouldn't be a stretch to see them in the PFL. Maybe the PFL will get an autobid, and maybe they won't. I'm personally not for that, as I think there are always better teams available to fill out a 24 team bracket.

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm still hesitant about reading too much into this. While removing future OOC opponents seems odd, it could very well be cover for some restructuring between Ivy and Patriot schedules, which itself would be unusual given the Ivy penchant for very conservative scheduling. Or perhaps they also passed some kind of new bylaw about not posting schedules until they're official or something like that

We certainly know they're looking, and yes, VMI does seem like a reasonable choice all things considered, but unless you're seeing real smoke out there from Center Valley or Lexington, it's hard for me to buy into the idea at this time.

[MplsBison]

"Everyone" knows that Georgetown is going to join the PFL. Word on the street is that the PFL obtaining an autobid in 2013 has sealed the deal....

Not over till the fat lady sings.

We're still fighting the good fight to block the PFL autobid. xrulesx

[Dane96]

We?

Haha...oh the delusional world you live in.

[carney2]

Interesting that UNH & Maine are listed as likely candidates too.

You hint - and someone else has stated - that both schools are content where they are. The question remains however, whither the CAA? Lots of moving parts in that conference. If you know where it will be in 5 years, speak up. No one else does. The question has been, and remains, what happens to UNH and Maine IF they become even more isolated in a southern dominated CAA? At what point do 3, 4, more air trips to away games become so much of a burden that a Patriot league with a northeast/Mid-Atlantic footprint begins to look more attractive? The point of this type of discussion is that although UNH and Maine may indeed be very happy today, nothing is forever.

Following up this line of thinking, I hope that if VMI is ever truly considered for Patriot League membership, the powers that be pull out a map before they decide. Does the League really want to be in Lexington, VA? Holy Cross and Colgate would need to do a lot of packing for that trip. Do we want to spread ourselves out that far? Are there other potential candidates to populate a Southern Division? Does this kind of geography make the League less attractive for a New Hampshire and/or a Maine? Geography and getting rid of those long treks into Dixie would, theoretically, be a primary motivation for those New England schools to consider Patriot League membership. In short, Patriot League membership makes total sense for VMI. They get to hang out with fellow military schools. Does it make sense for the League? Would it make the League less attractive for other potential members?

[CFBfan]

All this makes Bryant look like a great add to the league.......

[aceinthehole]

All this makes Bryant look like a great add to the league.......

To what league - the NEC? I agree and think Bryant was a GREAT add to the NEC.

[Bogus Megapardus]

In lieu of VMI or UVM or VU, I humbly nominate UVI.

The University of the Virgin Islands is a 2,400 student, primarily undergraduate institution located in Charlotte Amalie, St. Thomas (with an adjunct campus in St. Croix). At present, UVI fields only 10 NCAA teams but it has a PL-sized (3,500 seat) arena plus world class swimming, golf and outdoor volleyball facilities. I think that an upgrade to the Patriot League would provide UVI with the push it needs to get up to the 16 team level and to move to Division I.

Serious discussions about flying from Worcester, Mass. to Lexington, Va. ought not be held unless consideration is given to the small extra time and cost of a modest charter to Cyril E. King International Airport, just three miles from the UVI campus. As an extra accommodation to UVI during the transition (and perhaps thereafter), the league might consider permitting the Buccaneers to act as hosts for all of their league contests, and waiving the limits on the size of travel squads. While required winter travel to St. Thomas might be considered a hardship by hard-core faculty, the educational and cultural benefits to the student-athletes will more than outweigh the burdens.

http://kalalloomarketplace.com/wp-content/uploads/classipress/biomedical-programs-1823625472.jpg

http://blogs.courant.com/uconn_mens_basketball/St.%20Thomas%20018-thumb-400x300.jpg

http://vermontdailybriefing.com/wp-content/my-images/beach.jpg

Therefore, I wish to declare the University of the Virgin Islands as the newest unsubstantiated rumor for membership in the Patriot League.

[Pitz]

Therefore, I wish to declare the University of the Virgin Islands as the newest unsubstantiated rumor for membership in the Patriot League.

xsmileyclapx

[MplsBison]

You hint - and someone else has stated - that both schools are content where they are. The question remains however, whither the CAA? Lots of moving parts in that conference. If you know where it will be in 5 years, speak up. No one else does. The question has been, and remains, what happens to UNH and Maine IF they become even more isolated in a southern dominated CAA? At what point do 3, 4, more air trips to away games become so much of a burden that a Patriot league with a northeast/Mid-Atlantic footprint begins to look more attractive? The point of this type of discussion is that although UNH and Maine may indeed be very happy today, nothing is forever.

Following up this line of thinking, I hope that if VMI is ever truly considered for Patriot League membership, the powers that be pull out a map before they decide. Does the League really want to be in Lexington, VA? Holy Cross and Colgate would need to do a lot of packing for that trip. Do we want to spread ourselves out that far? Are there other potential candidates to populate a Southern Division? Does this kind of geography make the League less attractive for a New Hampshire and/or a Maine? Geography and getting rid of those long treks into Dixie would, theoretically, be a primary motivation for those New England schools to consider Patriot League membership. In short, Patriot League membership makes total sense for VMI. They get to hang out with fellow military schools. Does it make sense for the League? Would it make the League less attractive for other potential members?

If you're going to talk about 5 years, then you might as well talk about if the FCS is still going to be the FCS.

Next big changes come in 2014 when the BCS is dissolved in favor of a stand alone championship game, pitting #1 v #2 in the rankings AFTER the bowls have been played.

No more Big East auto to the Orange, Sugar or Fiesta bowl. Possibly the elite conferences go to a new division. Top FCS conferences merge with leftovers of FBS. Low financial commitment "DI" conferences merged with DII? (who cares?) Etc. etc. etc.

[Sly Fox]

Let the record state Libertine's posts in this thread make him missed even more on FlameFans.

[ngineer]

I'm all up for UVI--was there in 1978 for my honeymoon. Not sure where the football field can fit,,,perhaps the beach a low tide!

[Go...gate]

Does UVI have a hockey team?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Does UVI have a hockey team?


Yes.



http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8471/beachhockey.png

[Libertine]

Let the record state Libertine's posts in this thread make him missed even more on FlameFans.
Let the record show that the feeling is not mutual.

[Sly Fox]

Which makes us miss you all the more.

And Bogus, you da man.

[Go...gate]

Yes.



http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8471/beachhockey.png

Well, since we have already proposed the University of Havana, I think UVI would be a great travel partner. Doesn't Puerto Rico also have a "state" university?

[Pard4Life]

Movers and shakers that I know at Maine and New Hampshire tell me that both schools are very happy in the CAA for football. I would see the chances of either moving to the PL as slim and none.

Thank you for providing some fact. UNH and Maine are the antithesis of PL football. The league was formed with academics in mind. They are not high caliber academic schools like the other PLs.

I'm looking at this from a PL presidential perspective. LC, Lehigh, and BU left the ECC for a reason in 1990... they wanted to be with like minded schools instead of Drexel, LaSalle, Rider.

You may as well blow up the AI if you include UNH and Maine. Then the PL "experiment" is dead and we are just another athletic conference. I don't know why LFN obsesses over this. It makes logical sense for ATHLETICS but not for the PRESIDENTS. Who controls the league?

[carney2]

Thank you for providing some fact. UNH and Maine are the antithesis of PL football. The league was formed with academics in mind. They are not high caliber academic schools like the other PLs.

I'm looking at this from a PL presidential perspective. LC, Lehigh, and BU left the ECC for a reason in 1990... they wanted to be with like minded schools instead of Drexel, LaSalle, Rider.

You may as well blow up the AI if you include UNH and Maine. Then the PL "experiment" is dead and we are just another athletic conference. I don't know why LFN obsesses over this. It makes logical sense for ATHLETICS but not for the PRESIDENTS. Who controls the league?

P4L, you and I seem destined for perpetual disagreement. One of us must be an undercover DungBoy - and it isn't me. My rejoinder:

The Patriot League is going to have to go outside the box to make this work. The intellectual snobs in the group will eventually have to content themselves with the knowledge that they have some core academic institutions to chum around with. They will just have to hold their collective noses on the Saturdays that Dumass A&T. comes to town.

A transparent, enforceable and enforced school by school AI could conceivably work for any and all members. Each incoming class of recruits must simply mirror the incoming freshman class as a whole. The devil, I know, is in the details, but it could be workable for a UNH and a Maine. Again, not saying they're interested nor under consideration. Just sayin'.

[Bogus Megapardus]

P4L, you and I seem destined for perpetual disagreement. One of us must be an undercover DungBoy - and it isn't me. My rejoinder:

The Patriot League is going to have to go outside the box to make this work. The intellectual snobs in the group will eventually have to content themselves with the knowledge that they have some core academic institutions to chum around with. They will just have to hold their collective noses on the Saturdays that Dumass A&T. comes to town.

A transparent, enforceable and enforced school by school AI could conceivably work for any and all members. Each incoming class of recruits must simply mirror the incoming freshman class as a whole. The devil, I know, is in the details, but it could be workable for a UNH and a Maine. Again, not saying they're interested nor under consideration. Just sayin'.

I respectfully differ. "Intellectual snobbery" is merely an idiomatic conclusion reached when assessing the nature of the PL construct, when all is said and done. It's not a goal.

The fact remains that we are a group of academically high-achieving smaller colleges with stringent standards for all students. We're not high-volume public research research universities. We're not take-all-comer, get-into-college regional institutions.

Let's face it - Fifty years ago we were all-male bastions of elite, nearly all-white, wealth. It comes as no surprise that that model deprived us of an entire universe of students of incredible potential who were deprived of a top education due to their circumstances of birth, not their potential.

Colleges across the nation wised up. Now, a student has the chance to attend a PL college regardless of gender, race, religion, or other irrelevant circumstances. Everyone should be able to attend a PL college if they have the drive and aptitude to do so. But the colleges themselves must present the same opportunity that was denied to so many years ago.

In other words, the colleges must remain as they always have been - a place where high achieving students can succeed, with no diminution of the standards that made us great to begin with. The only thing that has changed is the breadth of opportunity.

This is why the PL is different. Yes, it's a a club. Anybody can join the club. But you have to work really hard and show great potential to get in, and to stay in. If we abandon that, we no longer offer a choice and a distinct opportunity, and that would be a shame.

[carney2]

I respectfully differ.

Perhaps you too are a closet FeatherHead. But no, you do not "differ." You merely go elsewhere.

Have you made a case that the supposedly intellectual Patsies cannot commingle with the lowbrow on the field of athletic endeavor? Perhaps in your last paragraph, but alas, it's open to interpretation. Can the "club" exist if it includes public universities, even above average ones? Can the "club" continue if it admits an ecumenical institution without the above average standards of a Fordham or a Georgetown or a Holy Cross? Perhaps the better question might be, can the "club" continue if it can only feed on the intellectually elite berries on that very tiny limb you choose to occupy?

Have you determined that the AI cannot be made more broad based and all encompassing without losing its unique ability to prevent the appearance of football factories? Not that I can see.

I say again, the Patriot League has finally put itself in a position to survive and even to thrive. To do so it must get creative, imaginative, innovative.

PS: Loved your little essay - passionate, erudite, and well written. The product of a quality education.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Have you made a case that the supposedly intellectual Patsies cannot commingle with the lowbrow on the field of athletic endeavor? Perhaps in your last paragraph, but alas, it's open to interpretation. Can the "club" exist if it includes public universities, even above average ones? Can the "club" continue if it admits an ecumenical institution without the above average standards of a Fordham or a Georgetown or a Holy Cross?

Of course the club can include public universities. It does so now - Army and Navy. Does anyone for a moment think that the Academies shouldn't be in the PL? I'd certainly miss some of those fine intra-league rivalries.

Towson opted in for a while, and they were all for it at first. But Towson wasn't able to (or didn't want to) continue to participate according to the agreed-upon standards. I still think Towson would have been better off for it in the long run. Certainly others disagree.

I fully support the inclusion of UNH or Maine. They'd be great members. But they'd have to agree to meet PL academic standards. It's kind of like getting into a PL school, though - the league establishes the benchmarks, not the applicant. If they apply, maybe they'll get in.

Maybe even take a PG year first, just to bump up the numbers . . .

[Bogus Megapardus]

One other restriction - any new PL member has to be within the league's geographical footprint. PL schools travel with professors, instructors, tutors, computers and classroom materials, and students have keep any loss of classroom time at a minimum. UNH and Maine both fit within the footprint.

[Go...gate]

I respectfully differ. "Intellectual snobbery" is merely an idiomatic conclusion reached when assessing the nature of the PL construct, when all is said and done. It's not a goal.

The fact remains that we are a group of academically high-achieving smaller colleges with stringent standards for all students. We're not high-volume public research research universities. We're not take-all-comer, get-into-college regional institutions.

Let's face it - Fifty years ago we were all-male bastions of elite, nearly all-white, wealth. It comes as no surprise that that model deprived us of an entire universe of students of incredible potential who were deprived of a top education due to their circumstances of birth, not their potential.

Colleges across the nation wised up. Now, a student has the chance to attend a PL college regardless of gender, race, religion, or other irrelevant circumstances. Everyone should be able to attend a PL college if they have the drive and aptitude to do so. But the colleges themselves must present the same opportunity that was denied to so many years ago.

In other words, the colleges must remain as they always have been - a place where high achieving students can succeed, with no diminution of the standards that made us great to begin with. The only thing that has changed is the breadth of opportunity.

This is why the PL is different. Yes, it's a a club. Anybody can join the club. But you have to work really hard and show great potential to get in, and to stay in. If we abandon that, we no longer offer a choice and a distinct opportunity, and that would be a shame.

This is a terrific post, Bogus.

[carney2]

One other restriction - any new PL member has to be within the league's geographical footprint. PL schools travel with professors, instructors, tutors, computers and classroom materials, and students have keep any loss of classroom time at a minimum. UNH and Maine both fit within the footprint.

Breaking from the Patriot League thread hijacking mode, I bring us back to the reason for this thread with the question

Would an isolated VMI in Lexington, VA fit within the Patriot League's geographic footprint?

[DFW HOYA]

Yes, VMI is in the footprint. Some of these posters (not Carney) seem to want to add every restriction possible and yet bemoan the lack of interested candidates. One can't have it both ways.

Look at where the Big East was. With ESPN directly pushing Syracuse and Pitt to a conference that they already had TV rights in, the Big East could have taken one of three paths: 1) expand with new and somewhat untested partners, 2) shrink and become a Catholic version of the forgettable West Coast Conference, or 3) do nothing, put its head in the sand, and see who stayed around (the Conference USA approach). At least with expansion there is hope for better days, and no one is going to argue Notre Dame and Georgetown are lesser schools for being in a conference with Houston or Central Florida.

Yet, the very presence of Maine and UNH would besmirch the PL's good name? Lafayette is Lafayette whether it plays UNH or Duquesne or Susquehanna. The idea that the PL can't live without the Ivy League Index (as 29 other conferences seem to manage without it) remains prevalent, that anything south of Harrisburg or north of Worcester is just too far, or that any publicly funded college is altogether suspect.

Someday, the PL is going to need to expand, if not in football in a few years, then in other sports as well. But if it keeps saying "no" to schools with an interest, one day it's going to find no one waiting at the door. Otherwise, the PL runs the risk of becoming a self-contained entity without growth, a mid-major NESCAC.

[Pard4Life]

I respectfully differ. "Intellectual snobbery" is merely an idiomatic conclusion reached when assessing the nature of the PL construct, when all is said and done. It's not a goal.

This is why the PL is different. Yes, it's a a club. Anybody can join the club. But you have to work really hard and show great potential to get in, and to stay in. If we abandon that, we no longer offer a choice and a distinct opportunity, and that would be a shame.

I could not disagree more vehemently. The PL is a club. But not anyone can join. Can anyone join the Ivy League?

You are right on the individual level... any student regardless of background etc can now attend, but the institutional snobbery is real ie league members. The affiliation and partnerships matter. It's the entire point of the league... schools with similar academic programs and student athlete standards. UNH and Maine do not meet that threshold. The Presidents would not allow it. After the scholarship battle, they are going to vote to admit schools with lesser standards? UNH and Maine are going to have an AI with standards higher than their general population? Lehigh would not allow it because they would be out recruited because UNH and Maine could take anyone, while Lehigh has to maintain their standards.

[Pard4Life]

P4L, you and I seem destined for perpetual disagreement. One of us must be an undercover DungBoy - and it isn't me. My rejoinder:

The Patriot League is going to have to go outside the box to make this work. The intellectual snobs in the group will eventually have to content themselves with the knowledge that they have some core academic institutions to chum around with. They will just have to hold their collective noses on the Saturdays that Dumass A&T. comes to town.

A transparent, enforceable and enforced school by school AI could conceivably work for any and all members. Each incoming class of recruits must simply mirror the incoming freshman class as a whole. The devil, I know, is in the details, but it could be workable for a UNH and a Maine. Again, not saying they're interested nor under consideration. Just sayin'.

Absolutely not. They are not going to go outside the box by admitting anyone. Wasn't that the whole point of the Patriot League? The Presidents would approve this? Why do you think the ECC ended? An AI would not work at UNH and Maine because the numbers are low to begin with... and a standard deviation admits almost anyone.

They may take schools building a profile like Marist or Fairfield. But UNH and Maine?? I don't see how what I'm saying is Lehigh's position when LFN is the one clamoring for UNH and Maine.

[carney2]

Absolutely not. They are not going to go outside the box by admitting anyone. Wasn't that the whole point of the Patriot League? The Presidents would approve this? Why do you think the ECC ended? An AI would not work at UNH and Maine because the numbers are low to begin with... and a standard deviation admits almost anyone.

They may take schools building a profile like Marist or Fairfield. But UNH and Maine?? I don't see how what I'm saying is Lehigh's position when LFN is the one clamoring for UNH and Maine.

Let us remain calm. Let us remain rational. I don't use those smiley face things, but proposing that you might be a Squawk in Pard clothing was an attempt at some family levity since you and I both know that you are a major league detestor of all things Brown. And, a close reading will reveal that I never accused you of mouthing a feathered position.

I am now however officially concerned since both you and Bogie, two people that I happen to respect, have aligned against my expansion positions. You both make the same argument about the Patriot League being formed by like minded institutions, etc. I do not disagree with that base position. I simply feel that 25 years have passed and new realities have established themselves. I quote DFW's tag line that accompanies all his posts

"When we first started the league and the presidents would meet, we would tell one another 'We're building a model that others will follow.' So far, no one has followed."--John Brooks, S.J.

The Patriot League has not become Little Ivy despite its hopes, plans and mimicry. To turn "survive" into "thrive" the League has to chart new waters. They cannot admit "anyone," but they will most certainly have to go "outside the box." There just aren't enough viable candidates inside the box.

Your point about the AI with regards to public institutions is certainly valid. Personally, however, I believe the AI can be made valid for most reasonable situations with a little tweaking and a lot of accountability and transparency.

[RichH2]

I respectfully differ. "Intellectual snobbery" is merely an idiomatic conclusion reached when assessing the nature of the PL construct, when all is said and done. It's not a goal.

The fact remains that we are a group of academically high-achieving smaller colleges with stringent standards for all students. We're not high-volume public research research universities. We're not take-all-comer, get-into-college regional institutions.

Let's face it - Fifty years ago we were all-male bastions of elite, nearly all-white, wealth. It comes as no surprise that that model deprived us of an entire universe of students of incredible potential who were deprived of a top education due to their circumstances of birth, not their potential.

Colleges across the nation wised up. Now, a student has the chance to attend a PL college regardless of gender, race, religion, or other irrelevant circumstances. Everyone should be able to attend a PL college if they have the drive and aptitude to do so. But the colleges themselves must present the same opportunity that was denied to so many years ago.

In other words, the colleges must remain as they always have been - a place where high achieving students can succeed, with no diminution of the standards that made us great to begin with. The only thing that has changed is the breadth of opportunity.

This is why the PL is different. Yes, it's a a club. Anybody can join the club. But you have to work really hard and show great potential to get in, and to stay in. If we abandon that, we no longer offer a choice and a distinct opportunity, and that would be a shame.

Absolutely perfect. You should send it to your Pres. since he seems to accept that athletics and academics cannot coexist both being exceptional

[MplsBison]

I respectfully differ. "Intellectual snobbery" is merely an idiomatic conclusion reached when assessing the nature of the PL construct, when all is said and done. It's not a goal.

The fact remains that we are a group of academically high-achieving smaller colleges with stringent standards for all students. We're not high-volume public research research universities. We're not take-all-comer, get-into-college regional institutions.

Let's face it - Fifty years ago we were all-male bastions of elite, nearly all-white, wealth. It comes as no surprise that that model deprived us of an entire universe of students of incredible potential who were deprived of a top education due to their circumstances of birth, not their potential.

Colleges across the nation wised up. Now, a student has the chance to attend a PL college regardless of gender, race, religion, or other irrelevant circumstances. Everyone should be able to attend a PL college if they have the drive and aptitude to do so. But the colleges themselves must present the same opportunity that was denied to so many years ago.

In other words, the colleges must remain as they always have been - a place where high achieving students can succeed, with no diminution of the standards that made us great to begin with. The only thing that has changed is the breadth of opportunity.

This is why the PL is different. Yes, it's a a club. Anybody can join the club. But you have to work really hard and show great potential to get in, and to stay in. If we abandon that, we no longer offer a choice and a distinct opportunity, and that would be a shame.

I wonder what the % is of the tuition payments filling PL coffers that comes directly from the federal government via tuition assistance programs?

Why should my tax dollars subsidize PL schools with such an elitist, exclusionary guiding principle?

[Pard4Life]

Probably next to nothing if you are referring to Pell Grants. And that's his point: there are no exclusionary principles and likely never were. It's the financial aid that's key.

[Doc QB]

Intersting topic for PF fans. However, let me be one to say I do not think VMI is a good fit. State funded, further south, military school...seems pretty simple to me as a bad fit. As for Army and Navy, I would similarly and probably unpopularly say not a good fit. Sure, for non-football sports they have been a solid addition with prestige and strong programs in some of those sports, but in my mind, even they are not true fits...they are federally supported, military schools who send graduates to war prior careers in law, medicine, government, business (if they leave the military at all). Those two schools are obviosly rather special, but do they really fit the PL either?

The PL really should be high academic, private schools, smaller enrollments, with Division one sports programs with athletes who excel outside of sports. Its what the league was founded on, what makes it special. Is it snobbery or elitism? Depends on which side admissions you sit, I guess. The league was founded on that, and that is they way it should remain unless forces in athletics make it impossible to continue on in its current configuration, all other suitable "wish list" expansion candidates have given us a "no" as a final answer as they experience those same seismic shifts that make conferences implode/explode/reconfigure. And I am just not seeing that yet.

Some of us have a wish list of schools that actually live in that neighborhood academically, geographically, socially, athletically, etc, and it has been discussed ad nasuem. None are looking to move anyway. Should that mean we abandon our leagues unique position and add a poor fit just for the sake of being bigger? Certainly makes us less unique and special at the same time, with no disrespect meant to other blogger's expansion targets or to those institutions.

[Pard4Life]

Let us remain calm. Let us remain rational. I don't use those smiley face things, but proposing that you might be a Squawk in Pard clothing was an attempt at some family levity since you and I both know that you are a major league detestor of all things Brown. And, a close reading will reveal that I never accused you of mouthing a feathered position.

I am now however officially concerned since both you and Bogie, two people that I happen to respect, have aligned against my expansion positions. You both make the same argument about the Patriot League being formed by like minded institutions, etc. I do not disagree with that base position. I simply feel that 25 years have passed and new realities have established themselves. I quote DFW's tag line that accompanies all his posts

"When we first started the league and the presidents would meet, we would tell one another 'We're building a model that others will follow.' So far, no one has followed."--John Brooks, S.J.

The Patriot League has not become Little Ivy despite its hopes, plans and mimicry. To turn "survive" into "thrive" the League has to chart new waters. They cannot admit "anyone," but they will most certainly have to go "outside the box." There just aren't enough viable candidates inside the box.

Your point about the AI with regards to public institutions is certainly valid. Personally, however, I believe the AI can be made valid for most reasonable situations with a little tweaking and a lot of accountability and transparency.

I agree there is nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box. Personally I think UNH and Maine would be great additions and let's take UVM and BU while we're at it. There are new realities, but I am thinking what the leadership would do. I still believe little Ivy is their goal and scholarship issue created stability. Being aligned with academic schools is the purpose of the PL.

[RichH2]

I wonder what the % is of the tuition payments filling PL coffers that comes directly from the federal government via tuition assistance programs?

Why should my tax dollars subsidize PL schools with such an elitist, exclusionary guiding principle?

Gee, and I always thought that money wasto support the individual student regardless of where they go to school.

[ngineer]

Gee, and I always thought that money wasto support the individual student regardless of where they go to school.

Haven't you learned not to feed the troll?

[DFW HOYA]

There are new realities, but I am thinking what the leadership would do. I still believe little Ivy is their goal and scholarship issue created stability. Being aligned with academic schools is the purpose of the PL.

Stability for some, perhaps. It's anything but stable for Georgetown, while Fordham will eventually get to a point where its ambitions exceed that of the league, and they will seek to become a CAA or Big South team. Can the PL survive as a group which excludes potential entrants to maintain its perceived academic and ideological conformity? That's the longer term problem.

[Go...gate]

Stability for some, perhaps. It's anything but stable for Georgetown, while Fordham will eventually get to a point where its ambitions exceed that of the league, and they will seek to become a CAA or Big South team. Can the PL survive as a group which excludes potential entrants to maintain its perceived academic and ideological conformity? That's the longer term problem.

Hard to see that happening, IMO.

[Fordham]

Hard to see that happening, IMO.

Agreed. We haven't shown any interest/inclination in doing so thus far. Why now?

[van]

Stability for some, perhaps. It's anything but stable for Georgetown, while Fordham will eventually get to a point where its ambitions exceed that of the league, and they will seek to become a CAA or Big South team. Can the PL survive as a group which excludes potential entrants to maintain its perceived academic and ideological conformity? That's the longer term problem.

Wish you would quit the broken record here, take the whine to the Georgetown leadership, it is all within your house to correct. Put up or shut up, I am good with either.

[CFBfan]

Wish you would quit the broken record here, take the whine to the Georgetown leadership, it is all within your house to correct. Put up or shut up, I am good with either.

DFW certainly doesn't need me or anyone else to speak on his behalf, I read his comment NOT as whining about GU but in regards to the long term stability of the PL.....

[RichH2]

Rather a bit of both I think. Perhaps colored somewhat by Hoya's unenviable situation. While I have also been guilty of the "chicken little syndrome", I fail to see any probability of PL instability in the near future. Fordham has a competitve home for football, unlikely they will be going anywhere. Clearly tho,landscape in Northeast could alter a lot over the 3-5 years with looming changes in CAA and surely Big South. How that will play out is beyond my ken . PL has prepared for the liklihood of changes as best it can . If anything I think PL will benefit from changes rather than being swamped by them.

[DFW HOYA]

When I speak of instability, it's not about wins and losses, but commitments.

Example: Fordham has a veteran athletic director who, to the consternation of many Fordham fans, still lives in Fordham's "good old days". Maybe the next AD in 10 or 20 years (just kidding, folks) will be totally on board with Fordham's place in the PL, but maybe not. Many new athletic directors like to be change agents, and if 60-scholarship Fordham is still lagging behind Colgate, Lehigh, and Lafayette and drawing 4,200 a game to the Bronx, loyalty to the "good old days" will only go so far. That's why I argue that Fordham, short of joining the PL in all sports, has the ability to look elsewhere where Lafayete and Bucknell, for a variety of reasons, can't.

Look around. Colorado is in the Pac-12, Texas A&M is headed to the SEC, West Virginia sued to go to the Big-12, and San Diego State will be playing football in the Big East. This is an era of instability for conferences, where enterprising athletic directors see change as a plus on the resume and not a sign of failure.

Ideally, the PL needs eight schools committed for the next generation to 60-scholarship football under the AI. Maybe they have six with Fordham, but they do not have seven, nor are there commitments for an eighth.

[RichH2]

You may be correct IF FCS follows superconference trend of FBS, which to me is more an issue of maximizing $$$$$ . Since $ is not the primary mover in FCS I dont think we will follow suit. I, too ,would prefer 8 members. I will not lose any sleep if we dont get them. The PL will survive.

[Libertine]

You may be correct IF FCS follows superconference trend of FBS, which to me is more an issue of maximizing $$$$$ . Since $ is not the primary mover in FCS I dont think we will follow suit. I, too ,would prefer 8 members.

That may have been the case in the past but, in 2012, being in Division I is all about maximizing $$$$$ especially at the FCS level. Some schools are trying to maximize $$$$$in order to gain a competitive advantage or to make themselves more appealing to FBS while others are trying to maximize dollars simply to survive.

[RichH2]

Exactly where is $$$ going to come from? FCS does not . have lucrative TV contract or multiple $$$ Bowls. Many of our conferences do have TV deals but none for any serious coin.If anything FCS schools try for a few $$ games with FCS and otherwise minimize expenses. Neither of which calls for mega conferences

[Libertine]

Exactly where is $$$ going to come from? FCS does not . have lucrative TV contract or multiple $$$ Bowls. Many of our conferences do have TV deals but none for any serious coin.If anything FCS schools try for a few $$ games with FCS and otherwise minimize expenses. Neither of which calls for mega conferences
You're actually illustrating my point because "serious coin" is relative. FCS takes what TV money it can get to offset expenses and what FCS can get still revolves around higher volume media markets. FCS on MASN, for instance, is obviously nowhere near the payout that the SEC on ESPN brings in but it's still relatively significant for a budget-conscious FCS school. Larger conferences obviously get into more markets which means more TV money and, thus, the drive to expand.

[MplsBison]

Wish you would quit the broken record here, take the whine to the Georgetown leadership, it is all within your house to correct. Put up or shut up, I am good with either.

You mean, put up, shut up....or leave. (to the PFL)

[MplsBison]

Probably next to nothing if you are referring to Pell Grants. And that's his point: there are no exclusionary principles and likely never were. It's the financial aid that's key.

Any federal aid, loans or grants. It can't be zero. There are tax dollars flowing directly into the coffers of PL schools via tuition payments by students who can't pay for it all out of pocket and aren't getting enough institutional aid to cover the full cost.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Figures I would go on vacation when an actual conversation on this topic broke out. As always, some real interesting points are brought up, but one key point is missing.

I tend to be of the DFW philosophy that the PL needs to "expand, or die". Scholarships I have seen as being the best way to expand and stabilize. But I think it is foolish to sit back, with football scholarships... and wait for William & Mary to knock on the door, begging to come in, because they're simply dying to leave VCU's Final Four run money in the NCAA's to join a academic-based league that will cause a mutiny on its campus and force it away from it's natural rivals to play Bucknell and Holy Cross.

There are realistic teams out there in unstable situations that now can look at the PL for membership. VMI is one - in a much-more-unstable-than-it-looks Big South. Maine and New Hampshire are two more in the ever-shrinking southern-looking CAA. Is now the time to turn up the nose and say, "sorry, too Southern? sorry, too public?" Some might think so, but I sure don't.

The AI could adjusted to work with public schools - and has in the past. There's no reason to believe that UNH and Maine couldn't work in the PL academically - especially UNH, which has won APR awards every year, I believe, since the APR was put into place.

[MplsBison]

Figures I would go on vacation when an actual conversation on this topic broke out. As always, some real interesting points are brought up, but one key point is missing.

I tend to be of the DFW philosophy that the PL needs to "expand, or die". Scholarships I have seen as being the best way to expand and stabilize. But I think it is foolish to sit back, with football scholarships... and wait for William & Mary to knock on the door, begging to come in, because they're simply dying to leave VCU's Final Four run money in the NCAA's to join a academic-based league that will cause a mutiny on its campus and force it away from it's natural rivals to play Bucknell and Holy Cross.

There are realistic teams out there in unstable situations that now can look at the PL for membership. VMI is one - in a much-more-unstable-than-it-looks Big South. Maine and New Hampshire are two more in the ever-shrinking southern-looking CAA. Is now the time to turn up the nose and say, "sorry, too Southern? sorry, too public?" Some might think so, but I sure don't.

The AI could adjusted to work with public schools - and has in the past. There's no reason to believe that UNH and Maine couldn't work in the PL academically - especially UNH, which has won APR awards every year, I believe, since the APR was put into place.

APR just means the stupid kids they recruit graduate with a degree. That has nothing to do with limiting recruits to only geniuses.

[DFW HOYA]

You mean, put up, shut up....or leave. (to the PFL)

Georgertown is not interested in the PFL. I don't know why this bears repeating.

[van]

Georgertown is not interested in the PFL. I don't know why this bears repeating.

Sorry HOYA, but you're responding to someone that cannot hear. I was going to respond to her, but did not in the interest of not feeding a troll.

[carney2]

Attempting to get this back on topic, has it been mentioned that VMI's last winning football season was 1981? Nineteen eighty freakin' one! This will be year 31. Even the Pittsburgh Pirates have a long way to go to catch up to the Keydets. Is this what the Patriot League or any conference should be looking for in an expansion candidate?

[RichH2]

Bryant to PL starting 2014 season. All sports.. Very bored with VMIxsalutex.

[LUHawker]

Figures I would go on vacation when an actual conversation on this topic broke out. As always, some real interesting points are brought up, but one key point is missing.

I tend to be of the DFW philosophy that the PL needs to "expand, or die". There are realistic teams out there in unstable situations that now can look at the PL for membership. VMI is one - in a much-more-unstable-than-it-looks Big South. Maine and New Hampshire are two more in the ever-shrinking southern-looking CAA. Is now the time to turn up the nose and say, "sorry, too Southern? sorry, too public?" Some might think so, but I sure don't.

The AI could adjusted to work with public schools - and has in the past. There's no reason to believe that UNH and Maine couldn't work in the PL academically - especially UNH, which has won APR awards every year, I believe, since the APR was put into place.

LFN - you have been a stalwart proponent of PL expansion for a very long time. It comes across, perhaps intentionally, perhaps not, with a tacit "at any cost" tagline. That overstates your position, I believe, but directionally that is how it sounds. You may disagree, but let's review the list of candidates that you have touted for the PL over the years and then see if that is close to the truth.

Here goes (I'm going on memory here, so you other LFN readers can correct me if I've omitted any or unintentionally added a name):

D-I programs already with football:
Marist (oh God, did you make a case for the Red Foxes)
Bryant
Duquense
Monmouth
New Hampshire
Maine
VMI
Villanova

Programs without football that you've discussed:
Loyola
Johns Hopkins
Gettysburg (I think)

I think there were others, but you clearly haven't been "selective" in which schools might be a "fit" for the Patriot League.

Now that the PL will be offering schollies in FB, I don't know that there is any great need to expand, and certainly not with institutions that don't fit the PL mold (which there are few).

As a Lehigh and PL alum, I like the league's profile of schools (for the most part) and think that most PL alums, and importantly, PL Presidents see it that way too.

Why keep re-hashing this conversation?

[RichH2]

LFN - you have been a stalwart proponent of PL expansion for a very long time. It comes across, perhaps intentionally, perhaps not, with a tacit "at any cost" tagline. That overstates your position, I believe, but directionally that is how it sounds. You may disagree, but let's review the list of candidates that you have touted for the PL over the years and then see if that is close to the truth.

Here goes (I'm going on memory here, so you other LFN readers can correct me if I've omitted any or unintentionally added a name):

D-I programs already with football:
Marist (oh God, did you make a case for the Red Foxes)
Bryant
Duquense
Monmouth
New Hampshire
Maine
VMI
Villanova

Programs without football that you've discussed:
Loyola
Johns Hopkins
Gettysburg (I think)

I think there were others, but you clearly haven't been "selective" in which schools might be a "fit" for the Patriot League.

Now that the PL will be offering schollies in FB, I don't know that there is any great need to expand, and certainly not with institutions that don't fit the PL mold (which there are few).

As a Lehigh and PL alum, I like the league's profile of schools (for the most part) and think that most PL alums, and importantly, PL Presidents see it that way too.

Why keep re-hashing this conversation?

I would not be opposed to expansion, unfortunately my choices (Nova, W&M, UR) are unlikely at best. That said , I note that the issue is an active one with PL . As we are all painfully aware Presidents are not a proactive group. Agree with Hawker that expansion is not a matter of survival. Done correctly it will serve to protect the autobid. I do not want a repeat of Towson.A painful experiment for both of us. Look it would be cool to have another member or 2 .However the cool factor alone is insufficient. We have a building brand, excellent academics and athletics with merit aid. Not many schools offer that combo and we are the ONLY conference that does

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here goes (I'm going on memory here, so you other LFN readers can correct me if I've omitted any or unintentionally added a name):

D-I programs already with football:
Marist (oh God, did you make a case for the Red Foxes)
Bryant
Duquense
Monmouth
New Hampshire
Maine
VMI
Villanova

Programs without football that you've discussed:
Loyola
Johns Hopkins
Gettysburg (I think)

I think there were others, but you clearly haven't been "selective" in which schools might be a "fit" for the Patriot League.

Now that the PL will be offering schollies in FB, I don't know that there is any great need to expand, and certainly not with institutions that don't fit the PL mold (which there are few).

It keeps coming back to this because it's the core question going forward in the Patriot League.

There's what I'll call the "LU Hawker" philosophy: "William & Mary, Richmond, or Villanova will come 'round. You'll see." I maintain this is a surefire recipe for the death of Patriot League football.

And there's mine, LFN's which is the "maybe it's not a perfect fit, but it's pretty close" philosophy, where the PL (yes) looks at a dozen more candidates and sees if any are willing to accept an AI for a closer union with high-academic institutions. Maybe some are public. Maybe some have to catch up a bit academically. But don't show them the door before they've even had a chance to think about it because they're not academic (snooty?) enough, too public, too Virginia, too Yankee Conference-like, etc.

I think where I'm most mystified is the issue with UNH. If you removed the fact that they are the state flagship of the Granite state in every way they are a great addition to the league. They are not a football factory, but they are consistent winners and graduate their athletes. You'd think the pro-scholarship crowd would be falling over themselves to take a high-academic Northeastern school that is a consistent playoff participant (and weaken the CAA significantly) - but there's this weird perception that they're somehow not academic enough, despite every APR award to the contrary.

Back to VMI, though, for a second. Academically and militarily they are a near-perfect fit for the PL, but then other, new, criteria seem to sprout up from nowhwere. "They don't win enough!" "They're too far south!" "Military schools aren't a good match with a PL with Army and Navy in it! (my personal favorite).

I think waiting around for the CAA, NEC or Big South to blow apart I feel is a losing strategy. If it's the strategy of the PL presidents, we're doomed - scholarships or no scholarships.

[MplsBison]

Georgertown is not interested in the PFL. I don't know why this bears repeating.

Because the PL is going to kick you out for not offering enough aid to high school recruits.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fake "DI" football programs being converted to club teams.

[RichH2]

MplsBison's posts serve nicely as semicolons,you know those things you skip over to get tothe next item.

June will tell us something about the future. Notlooking for any real news

[LUHawker]

It keeps coming back to this because it's the core question going forward in the Patriot League.

There's what I'll call the "LU Hawker" philosophy: "William & Mary, Richmond, or Villanova will come 'round. You'll see." I maintain this is a surefire recipe for the death of Patriot League football.

And there's mine, LFN's which is the "maybe it's not a perfect fit, but it's pretty close" philosophy, where the PL (yes) looks at a dozen more candidates and sees if any are willing to accept an AI for a closer union with high-academic institutions. Maybe some are public. Maybe some have to catch up a bit academically. But don't show them the door before they've even had a chance to think about it because they're not academic (snooty?) enough, too public, too Virginia, too Yankee Conference-like, etc.



I don't get why you seem to think the PL is in grave danger of imploding if we don't expand. My philosophy is not just wait and hope some other school comes crawling to the PL, but it also is not, let's willy-nilly grab any candidate that pops up, like you want to do. I like the little club, with all its insularity, snootiness, snobbishness or whatever you want to call it; that is part of what makes it special.

I agree that the league would benefit from a slightly larger membership, but not at the expense of the essence of the league and I think this is the part that you appreciate the least. The PL is not in danger of dissipating and there is no need to take a school that falls into the "maybe it's not a perfect fit, but it's pretty close" category, so you'll need to explain to me why this is a mortal imperative.

[van]

I don't get why you seem to think the PL is in grave danger of imploding if we don't expand. My philosophy is not just wait and hope some other school comes crawling to the PL, but it also is not, let's willy-nilly grab any candidate that pops up, like you want to do. I like the little club, with all its insularity, snootiness, snobbishness or whatever you want to call it; that is part of what makes it special.

I agree that the league would benefit from a slightly larger membership, but not at the expense of the essence of the league and I think this is the part that you appreciate the least. The PL is not in danger of dissipating and there is no need to take a school that falls into the "maybe it's not a perfect fit, but it's pretty close" category, so you'll need to explain to me why this is a mortal imperative.

Well said. And I personnally believe that the scholarship move was at least in part to save the league from having to admit a less than "high-academic institution to save the league. There is no dire need to expand for survival in my opinion, although like Rich I would love to see Nova or W&M as members. Big difference between like to and need to.

[DetroitFlyer]

Georgertown is not interested in the PFL. I don't know why this bears repeating.

It is well documented that you do not believe Georgetown is interested, but simple common sense would dictate that there are certainly folks at Georgetown keeping this option open.... Once the PFL has an autobid, it will be harder for Georgetown to justify muddling along in the PL as an associate member. The PFL if looked at objectively would offer more to Georgetown in the future than the PL. Travel is cheap compared to athletic scholarships. Georgetown could help football recruiting by playing in a national conference and being competitive most years. OOC opportunities would still exist with the IL and PL if desired. In some respects, this really is a no brainer....

[Go...gate]

LFN - you have been a stalwart proponent of PL expansion for a very long time. It comes across, perhaps intentionally, perhaps not, with a tacit "at any cost" tagline. That overstates your position, I believe, but directionally that is how it sounds. You may disagree, but let's review the list of candidates that you have touted for the PL over the years and then see if that is close to the truth.

Here goes (I'm going on memory here, so you other LFN readers can correct me if I've omitted any or unintentionally added a name):

D-I programs already with football:
Marist (oh God, did you make a case for the Red Foxes)
Bryant
Duquense
Monmouth
New Hampshire
Maine
VMI
Villanova

Programs without football that you've discussed:
Loyola
Johns Hopkins
Gettysburg (I think)

I think there were others, but you clearly haven't been "selective" in which schools might be a "fit" for the Patriot League.

Now that the PL will be offering schollies in FB, I don't know that there is any great need to expand, and certainly not with institutions that don't fit the PL mold (which there are few).

As a Lehigh and PL alum, I like the league's profile of schools (for the most part) and think that most PL alums, and importantly, PL Presidents see it that way too.

Why keep re-hashing this conversation?

I plead guilty as to chatting up Gettysburg. I think it would have been a great fit.

[Go...gate]

I don't get why you seem to think the PL is in grave danger of imploding if we don't expand. My philosophy is not just wait and hope some other school comes crawling to the PL, but it also is not, let's willy-nilly grab any candidate that pops up, like you want to do. I like the little club, with all its insularity, snootiness, snobbishness or whatever you want to call it; that is part of what makes it special.

I agree that the league would benefit from a slightly larger membership, but not at the expense of the essence of the league and I think this is the part that you appreciate the least. The PL is not in danger of dissipating and there is no need to take a school that falls into the "maybe it's not a perfect fit, but it's pretty close" category, so you'll need to explain to me why this is a moral imperative.

I agree that with the consensus on the scholarship decision, the PL is greatly strengthened as it is presently constituted, even if Georgetown leaves, which is by no means certain. Let's also remember that scholarships do not guarantee success in any sport. Fordham had struggled with them in football and, if this is possible, Colgate has gotten even worse in basketball.

[Engineer86]

I plead guilty as to chatting up Gettysburg. I think it would have been a great fit.

Agree, larger than Lafayette and similar to several others in size with very solid academics, but I doubt it

[Bogus Megapardus]

MplsBison

Displaying such bias and picking on the feeble-minded is shameful in a modern, evolved society.

But it's so much fun.

[Sader87]

Gettysburg....oh goodie, another Pennsylvania school.

No need to expand...6 is a good number of league football games...gives one the flexibility to schedule Ivies, CAA's and a FBS game yearly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree that the league would benefit from a slightly larger membership, but not at the expense of the essence of the league and I think this is the part that you appreciate the least. The PL is not in danger of dissipating and there is no need to take a school that falls into the "maybe it's not a perfect fit, but it's pretty close" category, so you'll need to explain to me why this is a mortal imperative.

1. Unless American restarts a program they disbanded 60 years ago due to a lack of males on campus (will not happen), or Army and Navy willingly reclassify to FCS to trade games against SMU and North Carolina with games against Lehigh and Holy Cross (let's just say, even less likely to happen than American starting football), the PL will essentially be reliant on associate members to have an autobid to the FCS playoffs, as only five schools sponsor football.

2. The two associate members, Georgetown and Fordham, seem like they will remain in the PL but their long-term future in the league is in some doubt. Seeing as the PL is so reliant on associate members for an autobid, their presence is critical.

3. As many have noticed, a like-minded Division I "essence of the league" member does not currently exist. Every potential member has some sort of "problem" - too "southern", too "public", too "___" (insert name of ever-evolving criterion here).

4. Waiting for another private Catholic/Jesuit school to have another Father Brooks to jettison big-time football to join the PL is just fantasy land. And when I say "big-time" football, I mean the CAA, too. Villanova ain't coming.

5. Waiting for Johns Hopkins or RPI to join Division I after a 12-year wait is also a fantasy. They have all the benefits of D-I membership in (hockey, lacrosse) with none of the pesky drawbacks, like finding a match for 30-60 scholarship football players.

6. Meanwhile, other conferences are not going to sit still. Is the Big South going to pass over Fordham as a possible associate member if it's their only choice to maintain an autobid (and Stony Brook's membership) when Liberty, and potentially Coastal Carolina, leave? Is the PFL going to sit idly by if Campbell and Stetson join the Big South and they suddenly need more members, and Georgetown is critical to the survival of their conference? If the CAA loses JMU and Villanova along with Georgia State, are they really going to overlook Fordham as a potential member?

Conference realignment has hit the FCS, whether people like it or not. And alignments that seemed outlandish before suddenly don't seem so crazy in an era of conference change. Like I said, if the PL just sits and hopes that a conference is going to blow awart and the PL will be able to cherry-pick the best schools, they're making a huge mistake. They need to be proactive and shop their vision to prospective schools.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Gettysburg....oh goodie, another Pennsylvania school.

No need to expand...6 is a good number of league football games...gives one the flexibility to schedule Ivies, CAA's and a FBS game yearly.


I agree with Sader87. Gettysburg was a traditional foe of some PL schools way back when. They had the choice to go FCS but they chose not to. Their loss. I would not now support Gettysburg's inclusion. The PL has enough Pennsylvania schools. Gettysburg would add nothing the the league.

Six conference games gives PL teams the opportunity to expand their presence, while allowing some to "play down" if need be. While there are exceptions, it seems to me that PL schools for the most part really don't have much trouble attracting OOC games.

[citdog]

I agree with Sader87. Gettysburg was a traditional foe of some PL schools way back when. They had the choice to go FCS but they chose not to. Their loss. I would not now support Gettysburg's inclusion. The PL has enough Pennsylvania schools. Gettysburg would add nothing the the league.

Six conference games gives PL teams the opportunity to expand their presence, while allowing some to "play down" if need be. While there are exceptions, it seems to me that PL schools for the most part really don't have much trouble attracting OOC games.

by GOD I'd like to play them. we could finally win and the Charleston Mercury could print "Victory at Gettysburg!"

[ngineer]

Not if the Coach was named Pickett...(;-)

[van]

It is well documented that you do not believe Georgetown is interested, but simple common sense would dictate that there are certainly folks at Georgetown keeping this option open.... Once the PFL has an autobid, it will be harder for Georgetown to justify muddling along in the PL as an associate member. The PFL if looked at objectively would offer more to Georgetown in the future than the PL. Travel is cheap compared to athletic scholarships. Georgetown could help football recruiting by playing in a national conference and being competitive most years. OOC opportunities would still exist with the IL and PL if desired. In some respects, this really is a no brainer....

If you think Georgetown is in the PL just for the auto bid, you are crazier than I think.

[Ken_Z]

3. As many have noticed, a like-minded Division I "essence of the league" member does not currently exist. Every potential member has some sort of "problem" - too "southern", too "public", too "___" (insert name of ever-evolving criterion here).


y'all better get over the too Southern objection

[MplsBison]

If you think Georgetown is in the PL just for the auto bid, you are crazier than I think.

But the MAAC was acceptable?

[RichH2]

I sort of lump Big South with Great West in terms of long term viability. PL has now a defined identity.We are the academic conference that gives football scholarships. There is none other like us. Why are so many still so insecure in our PL ? We have taken a major step away from our IvyLite start. Perhaps no one else will want or qualify to join us? Fr.Brooks may have been prescient. So what! We are who we are. We are not the Ivies nor the CAA. We have a brand now to sell nationwide, which I think will be very successful.

[MplsBison]

I sort of lump Big South with Great West in terms of long term viability. PL has now a defined identity.We are the academic conference that gives football scholarships. There is none other like us. Why are so many still so insecure in our PL ? We have taken a major step away from our IvyLite start. Perhaps no one else will want or qualify to join us? Fr.Brooks may have been prescient. So what! We are who we are. We are not the Ivies nor the CAA. We have a brand now to sell nationwide, which I think will be very successful.

Why should people start paying attention to small liberal arts colleges in New England that play low-major DI bball and FCS football?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

y'all better get over the too Southern objection

Makes my point! There are a lot of objections folks should "get over".

Actually, rep points for using 'y'all." xlolx

[van]

I sort of lump Big South with Great West in terms of long term viability. PL has now a defined identity.We are the academic conference that gives football scholarships. There is none other like us. Why are so many still so insecure in our PL ? We have taken a major step away from our IvyLite start. Perhaps no one else will want or qualify to join us? Fr.Brooks may have been prescient. So what! We are who we are. We are not the Ivies nor the CAA. We have a brand now to sell nationwide, which I think will be very successful.

Exactly, and now I am done with this xdeadhorsexxdeadhorsex!

[TheValleyRaider]

I sort of lump Big South with Great West in terms of long term viability. PL has now a defined identity.We are the academic conference that gives football scholarships. There is none other like us. Why are so many still so insecure in our PL ? We have taken a major step away from our IvyLite start. Perhaps no one else will want or qualify to join us? Fr.Brooks may have been prescient. So what! We are who we are. We are not the Ivies nor the CAA. We have a brand now to sell nationwide, which I think will be very successful.

I'm not sure that's fair to the Big South. They're a long-standing conference in all sports. The Great West was a marriage of convenience until all its members could find affliations in other conferences after various transitions/conference shuffling

I'm not buying the Big South as headed out the door. Any more stable than most conferences out there? No, but who outside the Ivies is really stable?

[citdog]

y'all better get over the too Southern objection



there is no such thing.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faMZeh_vmVU

[RichH2]

Agree that BS not as much a commuter group like GW but it is a fragile group in football . Do not know enuf about other sports to have an opiion. With CAA and SoCon both morphing BS a prime target for raids. BS only a long standing conference if you define that as anything older than 10 years

[jimbo65]

there is no such thing.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faMZeh_vmVU

Hey I have a great idea. Schedule a game at Fordham and have all those gentlemen in those pretty uniforms parade around the Bronx before the game. The locals really like music but Dixie may not be a favorite. By the way, Nathan Bedford Forrest as I recall founded the Klu Klux Klan. In his honor you could get the Citadel fans to dress in white sheets and march behind the band.Sure to be a big hit on Fordham Road.

[citdog]

Hey I have a great idea. Schedule a game at Fordham and have all those gentlemen in those pretty uniforms parade around the Bronx before the game. The locals really like music but Dixie may not be a favorite. By the way, Nathan Bedford Forrest as I recall founded the Klu Klux Klan. In his honor you could get the Citadel fans to dress in white sheets and march behind the band.Sure to be a big hit on Fordham Road.


be careful what you wish for. we have experience fighting yankee sewer trash.


http://www.framery.com/chargetrev.jpg



when we come to the 'States with whom we were lately confederated' you play our song for us! as 1:10 of this shows.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUfXFbekqLY

[LUHawker]

Makes my point! There are a lot of objections folks should "get over".

Actually, rep points for using 'y'all." xlolx

Except for your view that "change is a-coming", you haven't yet made a sound case as to WHY the PL NEEDS to expand. Fordham now not likely going anywhere. G'Town is a question mark. There is ZERO evidence that the USMA or USNA are going anywhere for sports other than football and the PL is a stable conference with growing attraction (see Lax).

You and I and perhaps most other PL folks agree that it would be beneficial for the PL to expand. The difference remains on the urgency front and the approach. There is no pressing need at this time, nor is there any reason to compromise the the fit of the league to expand for the sake of expanding. This is not to say that the PL should not be exploring its expansion options, but rather that it has the ability to do so in a measured fashion. Do I think Nova, W&M or Richmond are going to come knocking on the PL's door? Not likely. Is it a possibility in the future? Possibly. Hopkins and RPI stepping up? Also not likely, but not one never knows. Clearly there are no obvious candidates, so I applaud your creative thinking. The issue is, however, that the PL has survived for 25 years, enhanced its product along the way (no offense to you HC football fans from the 80's) and developed a compelling brand, so there is no need for expansion gymnastics. xpeacex

[Engineer86]

Why should people start paying attention to small liberal arts colleges in New England that play low-major DI bball and FCS football?

Because we play solid football. and we don't include rapists, and our kids graduate ... in something other than animal husbandry. Go troll elsewhere.

[Sader87]

Why should people start paying attention to small liberal arts colleges in New England that play low-major DI bball and FCS football?

When did Pennsylvania, New York and the District of Columbia join New England?

[Go...gate]

When did Pennsylvania, New York and the District of Columbia join New England?

You mean you didn't know? : )

[Mr. C]

be careful what you wish for. we have experience fighting yankee sewer trash.


http://www.framery.com/chargetrev.jpg




when we come to the 'States with whom we were lately confederated' you play our song for us! as 1:10 of this shows.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUfXFbekqLY
If memory serves me, Citdog was sitting next to me at Princeton when that YouTube video was shot.

[citdog]

If memory serves me, Citdog was sitting next to me at Princeton when that YouTube video was shot.

indeed i was. after a really BAD cold cut box lunch. asked them where the jug of sweet tea was just to see their yankee faces!

[MplsBison]

When did Pennsylvania, New York and the District of Columbia join New England?

Who cares? That's the point.

[Sader87]

Who cares? That's the point.


Obviously you do, as you continue to opine here on all things Patriot League.

For the record, does anyone care about North or South Dakota (or the rest of that God-forsaken part of our country) now that we no longer need the ICBMs located there aimed at those damn Russkies???

[Go...gate]

indeed i was. after a really BAD cold cut box lunch. asked them where the jug of sweet tea was just to see their yankee faces!

You mean you didn't go to Hoagie Haven in Princeton? I would have suggested this to you fellows.

[Pard4Life]

Obviously you do, as you continue to opine here on all things Patriot League.

For the record, does anyone care about North or South Dakota (or the rest of that God-forsaken part of our country) now that we no longer need the ICBMs located there aimed at those damn Russkies???

Um yes... Bakken Shale.

[Sader87]

No idea what the "Bakken Shale" is....though I'm guessing it has to do with oil, coal etc....we Holy Cross men are more interested in the eternal questions such as "What is truth?" "Why didn't we join the Big East?" etc.

[Go...gate]

No idea what the "Bakken Shale" is....though I'm guessing it has to do with oil, coal etc....we Holy Cross men are more interested in the eternal questions such as "What is truth?" "Why didn't we join the Big East?" etc.

I knew the Jesuits in Worcester would find a way to get that one on the docket... : )

[RichH2]

GSU off to Sun Belt. CAA tightening exit rules in effort to keep it whole. The sounds of multiple dominoes hitting the table. I have no clue how all this will play out, except that the PL cannot be hurt by it and may be enhanced. CAA vs A10, football - basketball dichotomy, FBS bottom feeders searching for saps. SBUcoming home to the Northeast? Danes outgrowing NEC?

[Go...gate]

Whatever VMI does, I actually think the PL is in reasonable shape even if it does not add more members. I don't know what Georgetown and Fordham will do, but it seems now that there is truly a "Core Five" in the league for football which will help sustain it in the longer term. Similarly, IMO, we have a "Core Eight" in most other sports, as I do not see USMA or USNA leaving - the league works for their athletic philosophy and emphasis.

[carney2]

Whatever VMI does, I actually think the PL is in reasonable shape even if it does not add more members. I don't know what Georgetown and Fordham will do, but it seems now that there is truly a "Core Five" in the league for football which will help sustain it in the longer term. Similarly, IMO, we have a "Core Eight" in most other sports, as I do not see USMA or USNA leaving - the league works for their athletic philosophy and emphasis.

All true except for the "reasonable shape" comment. The problem is that a "Core Five" loses the autobid. It takes a minimum of six to go to that dance - and six always puts you one defection from oblivion. The Patriot League at the moment has its "Core Five" (even though Holy Cross should be in the Big Least) plus two associates. One of the associates is almost certainly not going scholarship and is therefore shaky for the long term. The other has consistently shown that its dreams far exceed its realities and can reasonably be suspected (not expected) to be casting about for what it perceives as greener pastures.

The Patriot League is not in "reasonable shape" from a football standpoint and absolutely needs to add members over the next few years.

[Bogus Megapardus]

absolutely needs to add members over the next few years.

Here's a modest proposal - How about if we each trim, say, a hundred million or so off our respective endowments and create a new Patriot League member out of whole cloth. We could buy an aging Prep School with Really Nice Old Buildings somewhere in western Connecticut, or maybe a Grand Old Estate in the Hudson Valley.

Lay down some FieldTurf, build a modest, expandable gym, add a few dorms and Presto! Instant Patriot League member. Just give it a nice Patrician name like Faunterloy College or The Wadswoth Institute or something, and we're good to go.

[The Historian]

Here's a modest proposal - How about if we each trim, say, a hundred million or so off our respective endowments and create a new Patriot League member out of whole cloth. We could buy an aging Prep School with Really Nice Old Buildings somewhere in western Connecticut, or maybe a Grand Old Estate in the Hudson Valley.

Lay down some FieldTurf, build a modest, expandable gym, add a few dorms and Presto! Instant Patriot League member. Just give it a nice Patrician name like Faunterloy College or The Wadswoth Institute or something, and we're good to go.

How about Bogus University?

[Go...gate]

Here's a modest proposal - How about if we each trim, say, a hundred million or so off our respective endowments and create a new Patriot League member out of whole cloth. We could buy an aging Prep School with Really Nice Old Buildings somewhere in western Connecticut, or maybe a Grand Old Estate in the Hudson Valley.

Lay down some FieldTurf, build a modest, expandable gym, add a few dorms and Presto! Instant Patriot League member. Just give it a nice Patrician name like Faunterloy College or The Wadswoth Institute or something, and we're good to go.

Or, we could add Monmouth. The campus is the sites of a former Estate.

I'm not even going to mention Marist any more.

[RichH2]

Here's a modest proposal - How about if we each trim, say, a hundred million or so off our respective endowments and create a new Patriot League member out of whole cloth. We could buy an aging Prep School with Really Nice Old Buildings somewhere in western Connecticut, or maybe a Grand Old Estate in the Hudson Valley.

Lay down some FieldTurf, build a modest, expandable gym, add a few dorms and Presto! Instant Patriot League member. Just give it a nice Patrician name like Faunterloy College or The Wadswoth Institute or something, and we're good to go.

A laudable scheme, but where to put it? To keep our erstwhile Northeast, somewhat preppy and elitist persona the new institution must North of NYC and no further West than Hamilton. Naming such an institution is even more of a quandry. I suggest that we put it up forbid just like they do new stadiums. It could be Buffett U or Wells Fargo Inst.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Isn't The Hun School in Princeton ready for a promotion to the Premier (Academic) League?

Of course, then, the problem would become: where would Princeton find all its students? xlolx

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/898/225/89822553_640.jpg
http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/2012/01/10489409-large.jpg

[MplsBison]

Because we play solid football. and we don't include rapists, and our kids graduate ... in something other than animal husbandry. Go troll elsewhere.

Your players just hurl racist insults? I guess that's better than rape, kudos.

[MplsBison]

Isn't The Hun School in Princeton ready for a promotion to the Premier (Academic) League?

Of course, then, the problem would become: where would Princeton find all its students? xlolx

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/898/225/89822553_640.jpg
http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/2012/01/10489409-large.jpg

The Ivy schools must really be going downhill if they're letting negros and women in now. xcoffeex

What's next? You're going to tell me they're allowing orientals! Ha ho!!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I suggest that we put it up for bid just like they do new stadiums. It could be Buffett U or Wells Fargo Inst.


Maybe Howell College. Named after Thurston, III and Lovie.

[RichH2]

Lovie Howell School of Fine Arts. yup that works for me

[Go...gate]

Isn't The Hun School in Princeton ready for a promotion to the Premier (Academic) League?

Of course, then, the problem would become: where would Princeton find all its students? xlolx

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/898/225/89822553_640.jpg
http://media.nj.com/the-times/photo/2012/01/10489409-large.jpg

As a proud alum of the Hun School, I was going to suggest this but felt it might be presumptuous. It is a lovely campus, though, and a very special place - and we do send a lot of kids to the Patriot and Ivy Leagues.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Indeed, the Hun School is truly a beautiful place to go to high school. I drive by it whenever I go see Princeton play.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Emma Willard School in Troy, NY is a classic. It's used as a set in a lot of "Old School" movies like Scent of a Woman, The Emperor's Club and the last Harry Potter movie.


http://encycl.opentopia.com/enimages/4012/4011082/Emma_WIllard_Shool_Aerial.jpg

[carney2]

This isn't hijacking, it's mindjacking. Bogie, this is on you.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This isn't hijacking, it's mindjacking. Bogie, this is on you.


Guilt acknowledged. It's off season. Many rely on PL threads to keep them entertained.

[CFBfan]

There's always "Faber College".....

[Bogus Megapardus]

There's always "Faber College".....

The Mongols? But Faber College is in "eastern Pennsylvania" as you might recall. A non-starter for Holy Cross fans. Although the writers actually patterned Faber College after Dartmouth, it isn't too much of a stretch to figure out which "eastern Pennsylvania" colleges they had in mind.

[CFBfan]

true Boggie but aren't they headed to the big east anyway?!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well, Doug Neidermeyer was conducting military drills when he told Flounder to "tuck in those pyjamas." Perhaps an omen for VMI.

[Go...gate]

This isn't hijacking, it's mindjacking. Bogie, this is on you.

It's fun, though.

[Go...gate]

Indeed, the Hun School is truly a beautiful place to go to high school. I drive by it whenever I go see Princeton play.

The Stuart Country Day School of the Sacred Heart/Princeton Academy of the Sacred Heart might be an alternative. Two beautiful campuses.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Stuart Country Day School of the Sacred Heart/Princeton Academy of the Sacred Heart might be an alternative. Two beautiful campuses.

Yeah, but the Patriot League doesn't necessarily want to waft directly downwind of the fumes of PU (or any other Ivy for that mater), despite my personal affiliation therewith. Distinct geographic locations must be considered.

[Engineer86]

Your players just hurl racist insults? I guess that's better than rape, kudos.

Ever hear of "stix and stones..." or are you going to tell me how offended you were by a word that is used in everyday in every locker room. How often do the rapes occur? ... Well I guess at some schools ...xthumbsdownxxthumbsdownx

[Bill]

There's always "Faber College".....

Knowledge is good.http://www.flickr.com/photos/e_lite/3207552527/

[Sader87]

"25+ years of football down the drain....."

[RichH2]

The Emma Willard School in Troy, NY is a classic. It's used as a set in a lot of "Old School" movies like Scent of a Woman, The Emperor's Club and the last Harry Potter movie.


http://encycl.opentopia.com/enimages/4012/4011082/Emma_WIllard_Shool_Aerial.jpg

My oldest daughter went to Willard. excellent school , absolutely beautiful and classic campus. My youngest son loved it also,as he said " lots of fine women" One other suggestion is The Canterbury School up by me in Western Connecticut.