LFN: The Decision: Bucknell's Thoughtful Study

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2012/02/decision-presidential-view-bucknells.html

A whole lot of fascinating stuff in President Bravman's statements, that's for sure.

[Go...gate]

Very good job, LFN. Indeed, one of your very best.

[LUHawker]

Very good job, LFN. Indeed, one of your very best.

I will go you one better, Gate, and state unequivocally, the best piece on this long and varied topic.

[Go...gate]

I give Bucknell's Prexy a lot of credit for what was clearly a difficult, game-changing decision. Many of our Presidents deserve credit, but none (save Weiss, and IMHO, he was a faculty mouthpiece) have been this forthright.

[RichH2]

Dont you just wish that all College Presidents communicated as directly, thoughtfully and honestly , without resort to the usual PC academic hookum.

[alvinkayak6]

Reps for various posters here

[DFW HOYA]

Good article here. Three thoughts:

1. Bravman's comment that "Any departure of a league affiliate or member in football would bring numerous risks for the future of Patriot League football competition and league continuance." Either he was more confident in Georgetown staying or, as discussed, Fordham was leaving (or bluffing to do so).

2. "We surrender some institutional independence in return for being part of a league..If we wish to remain part of a league that has a strong commitment to academics, there is no alternative." That's an equivocation. To suggest the PL is the only place that Bucknell can have a commitment to academics just isn't accurate--there are plenty of strong academic schools that will never join the PL and are doing just fine. Maybe Bravman should have been up front and said that Bucknell doesn't have the means to compete athletically outside the PL in its current fiscal structure.

3. There seems a thread in Bravman's comments that there was an "all for one, one for all" appoach among the presidents; well, six of them. So for any of you PL presidents that looked down the table and cast a wary eye at the "no" vote, well, none of you have this issue to deal with:

http://www.thehoya.com/news/med-center-deficit-over-22-million-1.2795889

[Bogus Megapardus]

Will LFN be eligible for a special achievement Patsie Award™ on the strength of his Presidential Series?

[Bill]

DFW
Good link regarding the med school issue. On a side note, I researched G-Town's endowment info from FY 2010 at financialaffairs.georgetown.edu/invest/files/Fact_Sheet_3.8.2011.pdf

It appears that G-Town uses 7% of the income from the endowment to fund part of the operating budget - not unusual in the world of higher ed, as you know. What irks me is schools with billion plus $ endowments claim some form of poverty (and they all do it - I'm not just calling out Georgetown). If there is going to be a 20+ million shortage - why not increase the amount of income these schools take from the endowment? They're still not touching the principal! Isn't that what an endowment is for?
It's almost like the Catholic church sitting on over a trillion dollars of art - but they're poor also! Oh well....

[DFW HOYA]

DFW
It appears that G-Town uses 7% of the income from the endowment to fund part of the operating budget - not unusual in the world of higher ed, as you know. What irks me is schools with billion plus $ endowments claim some form of poverty (and they all do it - I'm not just calling out Georgetown). If there is going to be a 20+ million shortage - why not increase the amount of income these schools take from the endowment? They're still not touching the principal! Isn't that what an endowment is for?

There are fiduciary rules regarding the use of endowment dollars, and it would be foolish to use the endowment merely as a means to cover operating losses, especially with the GU Medical Center, which has lost in excess of $400 million since 1995 by one estimate (and on track for another $100M by 2016, according to the aforementioned article). Long story short, ongoing losses like this sharply reduce the ability of the overall operating budget to expand as needs become apparent, whether that is financial aid, faculty salaries...or athletic scholarships.

N.B.: For readers seeing this and asking "why not get rid of these losses?", the GU hospital was sold off in 2000 to stem an $84 million annual loss but overall losses continue because of the long term nature of medical research commitments. Drop all medical research, and Georgetown drops out of the Tier I research clasification and could lose even more funds. Over his term as president, Jack DeGioia has been much more aggressive in fundraising to make up the difference but the research liabilities will continue to be a long term challenge.

[MplsBison]

How is GU med school "losing money"?

You can't do research until it's funded by a research grant, either from a federal or state government agency or a private source. So that can't be it. Are you saying that the hospital itself (ie, providing health care to the public) has lost $400M ?? Come on... kinda hard to swallow in this day and age of out of control health care expenses. Why is it any different than any other hospital? Why aren't they all under water to such a degree?

[DFW HOYA]

How is GU med school "losing money"? You can't do research until it's funded by a research grant, either from a federal or state government agency or a private source. So that can't be it. Are you saying that the hospital itself (ie, providing health care to the public) has lost $400M ??

Getting off topic (and I'd be happy to discuss in another thread), but per the linked article: "According to the financial plan, the high cost of employee compensation and a drop-off in the number of grants and contracts for sponsored research the medical center receives are major contributors to the deficits. Compensation, which includes employee salaries and fringe benefits, is GUMC's largest spending area and is projected to cost $135.1 million in 2012."

Having been sold in 2000, the hospital no longer contributes to this total, but all private teaching hospitals are under water to some degree due to capitation of insured patient costs and fewer direct subsidies to the cost of health care.

Since Georgetown has the only medical school in the PL, this wouldn't apply to other schools.

[MplsBison]

Interesting.

How many private medical school hospitals are there? And are they all in such poor shape as GU's was/is?


But you're still saying that the med school itself is costing GU big time - ie, making it impossible to afford competitive DI football?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Getting off topic (and I'd be happy to discuss in another thread), but per the linked article: "According to the financial plan, the high cost of employee compensation and a drop-off in the number of grants and contracts for sponsored research the medical center receives are major contributors to the deficits. Compensation, which includes employee salaries and fringe benefits, is GUMC's largest spending area and is projected to cost $135.1 million in 2012."

Having been sold in 2000, the hospital no longer contributes to this total, but all private teaching hospitals are under water to some degree due to capitation of insured patient costs and fewer direct subsidies to the cost of health care.

Since Georgetown has the only medical school in the PL, this wouldn't apply to other schools.

Hofstra pres Stuart Rabinowitz didn't cite his new medical school as a reason for pulling the plug on their football program, but I wonder, now, if it was related.

Plans for their medical school were unveiled in 2007, football had its plug pulled in 2009, in 2010, the medical school opens.

[Bill]

Oooh - a conspiracy theory - I love it :)

Good work! (If there was a font to demonstrate I'm trying NOT to be a wise ***, I'd use it now)

[DFW HOYA]

Med school deficits are not the root of athletics issues. But when you're asking a school to take on an extra $3-6 million of costs annually [Title IX included), it should not be discounted, either.

[Sader87]

I think a big problem GTown has (above and beyond their financial worries) is that there's no real "institutional memory" of football in both the vast majority of their alums and their administration. Having a football team at the D1 level is much more than what goes on inside the white-lines...it has a lot of ancillary benefits imo. School spirit, alumni weekends, community involvement etc etc

I really think if they "had" this (or had it to a much higher degree, like many schools in the PL do) they would put more empahsis/$$$ into their program.

My $0.02

[Bogus Megapardus]

There are quite a few private medical schools - Penn, Hopkins, Harvard, Cornell, etc. All of them, I believe, run at a deficit. Georgetown has in addition an eleemosynary purpose stemming from its Jesuit heritage - which meant that the hospital (when run by GU) likely gave away a lot of free services. Georgetown also sits in what is arguably the most socialist zip code in America - meaning that everyone has his/her hand out. That has to be tough.

With such a central and prominent part of the university running in the red, year after year, it take a toll on the experience of all Georgetown undergraduates, not just the football team and other athletes. With tuition as high as it is, there's a lot of wealth redistribution going on - and probably social handouts being provided to individuals whose needs far outstrip their abilities.

But that's just the way it goes - as a Jesuit institution, Georgetown has charitable purposes at its core to begin with. It's not going to scrap the medical center or its research.

I wonder how Hopkins does with its budget?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Med school deficits are not the root of athletics issues. But when you're asking a school to take on an extra $3-6 million of costs annually [Title IX included), it should not be discounted, either.

I find it highly amusing that athletics are supposedly supposed to be "money-making operations" and are supposed to break even, but medical schools are not.

BU has a medical school, Hofstra has a medical school, and Northeastern has the Bouvé College of Health Sciences (which I'm not sure if it's considered a medical school or not, but they do talk a lot about the medical research they've done there). All three have dropped football, citing costs. Do any of these three medical schools "make money"?

[Wildcat80]

Terrific post LFN!!! I know many exBucknell football players who are VERY HAPPY with this change. Go Bison!

[BucBisonAtLarge]

When Dr. Bravman arrived from Stanford 18 months ago, I had hopes for leadership on the issue of football merit aid. It had seemed odd that, with merit aid present in most of the 26 varsity sports, football remained need-based by league fiat. Bravman had gone from undergrad to faculty to the highest levels of administration within one of Division I most successful athletic programs in an elite private institution. His painstaking approach to making this decision, the transparency and accountability undertaken all leave me proud of some west coast guy, new in residence in the Buffalo Valley, wearing the Bison-in-Chief mantle.

LFN, I was heartened that you changed your interpretation of decision-making in Lewisburg. Building a case for football at BU had to be done without the reassurance of much recent success (last year notwithstanding) and tepid local community support, squarely within the geographic halo of Happy Valley. Bucknell competes successfully within the Patriot League in more sports than men's hoops, as its history in the Presidents' Cup might indicate. Bison football would seem to have been brought back into the fold of a dynamic athletic program where excellence is expected, all within the academic mission of the University.

[bison137]

2. "We surrender some institutional independence in return for being part of a league..If we wish to remain part of a league that has a strong commitment to academics, there is no alternative." That's an equivocation. To suggest the PL is the only place that Bucknell can have a commitment to academics just isn't accurate--there are plenty of strong academic schools that will never join the PL and are doing just fine.


It appears that you didn't read the statement you quoted. He says "If we wish to remain part of a LEAGUE that has a strong commitment to academics, there is no alternative. Your response is to a statement he did not make.

[ngineer]

Nice article, Chuck. Tried to comment, but clicked "Post as..." several times with nothing happening.

[MplsBison]

There are quite a few private medical schools - Penn, Hopkins, Harvard, Cornell, etc. All of them, I believe, run at a deficit. Georgetown has in addition an eleemosynary purpose stemming from its Jesuit heritage - which meant that the hospital (when run by GU) likely gave away a lot of free services. Georgetown also sits in what is arguably the most socialist zip code in America - meaning that everyone has his/her hand out. That has to be tough.

With such a central and prominent part of the university running in the red, year after year, it take a toll on the experience of all Georgetown undergraduates, not just the football team and other athletes. With tuition as high as it is, there's a lot of wealth redistribution going on - and probably social handouts being provided to individuals whose needs far outstrip their abilities.

But that's just the way it goes - as a Jesuit institution, Georgetown has charitable purposes at its core to begin with. It's not going to scrap the medical center or its research.

I wonder how Hopkins does with its budget?

I was wondering more about hospitals owned by private universities. Surely there can't be many - and possibly none wholly owned by the school?

Even the University of Minnesota's hospital in the cities has "Fairview Clinic" in the name, I presume co-owners/admin of the hospital.


Furthermore, back to your post, I would think that faculty of medical schools - especially at private universities - have their positions endowed. So the faculty cost shouldn't be anything to the university.

Then, all the research comes from grants - so the research shouldn't cost anything to the university. Where does the deficit come from?

[RichH2]

MplsBison's inquiry as to University owned hospitals is interesting. I was surprised at the extent of the drain from Hoya budget caused by Medical facilities. Doing some research now to see if this is endemic to such institutions or specific to GU.

[ngineer]

Whether or not medical schools "lose money" for the colleges that run them can also be manner of accounting and how the beans are accounted for and the various revenue streams. At the PL level, the athletics programs have never been meant to "make money". Obviously, the more costs you can offset through ticket and media revenue the better, but it was never meant, nor ever will be a "money maker".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Whether or not medical schools "lose money" for the colleges that run them can also be manner of accounting and how the beans are accounted for and the various revenue streams. At the PL level, the athletics programs have never been meant to "make money". Obviously, the more costs you can offset through ticket and media revenue the better, but it was never meant, nor ever will be a "money maker".

I wholeheartedly agree. And I just wonder if some of you could say the same thing about hospitals. Given the same thresholds that are frequently bandied about as reasons for athletics - it's a "money maker", if it loses money, it's not worthwhile - you have to wonder if they would survive the same test.

[ngineer]

I would imagine that most hospitals run by universities are 'non profit', hence they are not to be 'making money' for other endeavors of the school, but basically covering their expenses. We all know that this is abused in many ways, though.