How Deep Is The SoCon Rift of Privates vs Publics?

[FUBeAR]

I think it is not necessarily a black and white distinction, but they would tend to have similar type interests. Like privates, The Citadel and VMI, in general, have very parochial interests more in line with privates than big publics. That may or may not translate into 100% private-like behavior when it comes to athletics, but in alignment, they would tend to lean towards the privates more. This is just a general evaluation and I can't point to a specific action.

On the flip side, the fact that they are both public institutions means they have all the state budget issues and state mandates to deal with as well. So they truly are a special case that doesn't fit into either side very easily. The one issue that comes immediately to mind is VMI's requirement that "x"% of students (and ultimately athletes) must come from VA. That has to impact recruiting at least a little bit. But kdinva will have to provide the details.

But you ask a good question. Not to criticize my school, or VMI, but with 4 bigger publics, and 4 mostly smaller privates (Mercer is the odd private being bigger), but the militaries find themselves in the unique position of being the swing block depending on the issue. That could be viewed as either the tyranny of the swing vote minority or moderating influence of the middle depending on your position. But this is to say that there are issues that fall clearly between the public and privates. I'm not sure there are that many, besides possible expansion. There might be, I just don't know about them. And I'm not convinced that much expansion is in the big publics' interests like some here are screaming.

I'm glad that the SOCON has taken a slow, very deliberately stance on expansion. We have all seen the mess that occurs from acting on impulse when it comes to realignment. How many conferences are a real mess as a result. The Southland, UAC, Big South, OVC, MEAC, and even the CAA are all experiencing turmoil. We are free of turmoil. And that is comforting.

Thanks for all that. Pretty much knew most of it. Agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph.

But…back up to that 1st paragraph. Still looking for some specifics around Mocs123’s assertion and now would like further understanding of what this “The Citadel and VMI, in general, have very parochial interests more in line with privates than big publics” means …specifically.

“Parochial” means … “having a limited or narrow outlook or scope” - So, specifically, related to athletics, how are VMI’s & CIT’s …. and, by extension, Furman’s, Wofford’s, Samford’s, and (big (ha ha)) Mercer’s interests more limited or narrow in outlook or scope. Each of those 6 schools has made investments in facilities, has, in recent years, fielded NCAA Tournament Teams in Football and 1/2 have in basketball.

Davidson Football was misaligned with the SoCon. FUBeAR could see that. Everyone could. That’s the kind of thing he’s looking for.

Show FUBeAR how these Athletics Programs’ interests vary based on the ‘category’ to which they have been ‘assigned.’ Cost of Attendance? C’mon - that can be resolved over 2 or 3 drinks at the hotel bar in Myrtle Beach. Inter-conference transfer policy? Non-issue. Furman and Mercer Football will be happy to take some of the Players from Chatt, ETSU, and WCU that are in the portal. JK - but in the Wild West of today … that’s a 1-drink to solution issue.

Since 2013 - using great care with regard to expansion has proven to be the far superior strategy. It should continue to be the strategy. Doing SOMETHING so you can say you’re doing SOMETHING is a fool’s errand, FUBeAR thinks the SoCon’s wise approach to date is near paying solid dividends. He expects 1-3 STRONG & STABLE additions to the SoCon in the next 3-24 months.

But - hey, if y’all wanna bail … SEE YA … WOULDN’T WANNA BE YA! … more room for those strong and stable additions.

[SU DOG]

JUST for the sake of accuracy El Cid, Samford's undergraduate enrollment is currently 3672 and the total number is 5791 students. This is obviously well above the militaries' numbers. Mercer's total number is somewhat misleading as I believe it includes about a half dozen or more satellite campuses. Samford has seen an increase in enrollment for the last 15 years straight. The school has just announced the construction of three new dormitories with an expected enrollment to reach 7,500 within the next few years.

[wcugrad95]

My feeling is that it is more about which way would Citadel and VMI vote in regards to possible expansion schools more so than the "interest" of the current programs. But that is true in almost every conference at every level. Citadel not wanting a school like Charleston Southern is pretty similar to say Florida not wanting FSU or Miami to get into the SEC. And the private schools not wanting to add say 3 big public schools is just like the large publics not wanting to add 3 more small private schools. In the end, Citadel and VMI would no doubt have the same interests and lots of the same challenges, and I think the sentiment is they would vote more in line with the privates vs UTC/ETSU/WCU on the future of football in the SOCON.

Like I said, that becomes challenging if you are talking about trying to add the right set of at least 3 teams. There is no real benefit of adding only 1 - in fact it probably makes things worse. The league benefits now from our stability to go along with a great footprint in terms of travel and costs. Just adding any 3 schools isn't the right answer - but I do feel there are at least 3 that could be great additions. Of course, the 3 I like very well could be different than the 3 somebody from another school likes.

[ElCid]

Just for the sake of accuracy ElCid, Samford with 3672 undergrads and a total enrollment of 5791 is much larger than the militaries' numbers. Also, the Mercer total number is somewhat misleading as it includes a half dozen or more satellite campuses.

Yeah, that is true about Mercer, I just didn't have the breakout. Satellite campus numbers are basically useless in re to football.

We are about 2300 cadets, and 1300 graduate students for about 3600. So we are a bit bigger than VMI (about 1700) who has a smaller Corps and no graduates. And Samford is about 50% bigger than us in both undergrad and grad. Furman is at about 2600 total with a small number of grad studs. Wofford has about 1800 studs with no graduate school. One other bit of data is that while we and VMI have women, the % is much much smaller than at Furman, Wofford, Samford, and Mercer.

[FUBeAR]

My feeling is that it is more about which way would Citadel and VMI vote in regards to possible expansion schools more so than the "interest" of the current programs. But that is true in almost every conference at every level. Citadel not wanting a school like Charleston Southern is pretty similar to say Florida not wanting FSU or Miami to get into the SEC. And the private schools not wanting to add say 3 big public schools is just like the large publics not wanting to add 3 more small private schools. In the end, Citadel and VMI would no doubt have the same interests and lots of the same challenges, and I think the sentiment is they would vote more in line with the privates vs UTC/ETSU/WCU on the future of football in the SOCON.

Like I said, that becomes challenging if you are talking about trying to add the right set of at least 3 teams. There is no real benefit of adding only 1 - in fact it probably makes things worse. The league benefits now from our stability to go along with a great footprint in terms of travel and costs. Just adding 3 isn't the right answer - but I do feel there are at least 3 that could be great additions. Of course, the 3 I like very well could be different than the 3 somebody from another school likes.

Still talking in vague generalities about differing “interests.” Everyone seems to KNOW that these schools’ “interests” differ based upon their ‘assigned category,’ but no one, so far, has been specific.

CIT doesn’t want ChuckSouth to join the SoCon for the same reason WCU doesn’t want Southwest CC in Sylva to join the SoCon. We don’t need 2 Starbucks across the street from each other in the SoCon. It has nothing to do with CIT being “military” or “voting like a private.”

Other than some kinda weird “other-ism” that seems to be a defining personality trait among SoCon Fans (at least fans of “the Publics” from what FUBeAR sees), why wouldn’t Furman or Samford want a public school or 2 more joining the SoCon. Why do public schools think/say “privates” are THE DEVIL? The SoCon has been a blend of Public / Private / Military since before most of us were born.

FUBeAR contends ALL schools have the same “interests.” We have different burdens to bear, but we all want the same 2, maybe 3 things. We all want to win. We all want to not lose too much money (should be thinking about MAKING money instead, but none of ‘em do…really). We want student athletes to not hate us, with a stretch goal of them feeling meh about us. Pollyanna-ish and/or lying fans will say we want our SA’s to have amazing experiences and earn amazing degrees … and that’s true … as long as those things don’t conflict with winning or not losing too much money.

FUBeAR contends that the seismic changes in intercollegiate athletics - realignment, transfer portal, NIL have rendered whatever real differences may have once existed between these “categories” of schools may or may not still be real, but they are now trivial.

So trivial that people, like us…who are pretty darn engaged struggle to SPECIFICALLY cite any real differences in “interests.” Well, FUBeAR named 2 that he heard the ETSU spewing amid his snot & phlegm (hope he’s seen a doctor since that interview) … and, again, those 2 issues seem pissant to FUBeAR…FUBeAR can solve that problem in 4 drinks….FUBeAR…SOLVE THAT PROBLEM!

Seems to be peeps are just in their feels more than anything else .… and looking for something to blame for them feeling less than.

[wcugrad95]

It would be interesting to have people from each school throw out their "top-3" adds. My bet is there might be quite a bit of overlap. Of course what we think/want on a message board has no real bearing on anything, but the "rift" and divide is probably closer than what a lot of people think. For instance, my preferences have as much to do with the footprint and programs we would add than they do if the schools are public vs private.

I'd love to get NC A&T and Campbell. That is one of each. Then there would be tons of debate on who the 3rd school is, but my guess is many on here wouldn't have terrible heartburn with either of those 2.

[dbackjon]

VMI and The Citadel are small, with selective acceptance rates targeting a niche audience. That alone sets them apart from a bigger public school like ETSU, WCU or UTC where the missions of those schools are more broad-based and they were set up to educate an audience that is broader than what privates or the militaries target.

[FUBeAR]

It would be interesting to have people from each school throw out their "top-3" adds. My bet is there might be quite a bit of overlap. Of course what we think/want on a message board has no real bearing on anything, but the "rift" and divide is probably closer than what a lot of people think. For instance, my preferences have as much to do with the footprint and programs we would add than they do if the schools are public vs private.

I'd love to get NC A&T and Campbell. That is one of each. Then there would be tons of debate on who the 3rd school is, but my guess is many on here wouldn't have terrible heartburn with either of those 2.

Still nothing on WHY / WHAT are the different interests by category.

if the “rift” is that ETSU/UTC/WCU want to expand & the ‘rest’ want to expand wisely…then, yeah, FUBeAR is gonna line up with the wise peeps.

All of ‘the privates’ except Mercer have voted for SoCon expansion in the past and knowing President Underwood as FUBeAR does, if expansion helps Mercer grow and ‘reach,’ he’ll be standing on the bow of that ship. FUBeAR is almost certain ‘the privates’ are not ‘reactively anti-expansionary’ as the ETSU characterized them, while extolling the virtues of the oh-so-proactive Buc’s (LOL) Athletics. They are just wise old bulls - they wanna WALK down the hill (if you know that off-color metaphor)…

FUBeAR’s wish list
1) Richmond (private)- ALL SPORTS, including their A-10 Hoops
2) William & Mary (public)
3) NC A&T (public)
4) Campbell (private)
5) Others - Gardner-Webb (private), Tennessee Tech (public), UTM (public), APSU (public), UNA (public) …probably others

[FUBeAR]

VMI and The Citadel are small, with selective acceptance rates targeting a niche audience. That alone sets them apart from a bigger public school like ETSU, WCU or UTC where the missions of those schools are more broad-based and they were set up to educate an audience that is broader than what privates or the militaries target.

Anyone posting on this thread is likely aware of the demographics of all of the SoCon schools.

Now…take those things you said and apply them to how those pieces of data drive differing “interests” in their athletics pursuits / decisions. Cite specific example of decisions that have been made because of these pieces of data in contrast to how that decision would have been made if these pieces of info were different.

[SU DOG]

It would be interesting to have people from each school throw out their "top-3" adds. My bet is there might be quite a bit of overlap. Of course what we think/want on a message board has no real bearing on anything, but the "rift" and divide is probably closer than what a lot of people think. For instance, my preferences have as much to do with the footprint and programs we would add than they do if the schools are public vs private.

I'd love to get NC A&T and Campbell. That is one of each. Then there would be tons of debate on who the 3rd school is, but my guess is many on here wouldn't have terrible heartburn with either of those 2.

I would also go along with Campbell. The public I desperately wanted was West Georgia because of great facilities and their geographical location that would be pretty easy travel, especially for UTC, Samford, and Mercer. I wonder if the SoCon didn't drop the ball on that one? They probably don't have any interest, but Tenn Tech might be a good choice, IMO.