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  1. #21
    AGS FCS Champion PaladinFan's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by youcanbankit View Post
    Excellent points. All are true. a couple of key points to consider....... What caused Samford to fail in close games was lack of a running game, which hurt in two ways: first, time of possession and second, kept their defense on the field way too long. That will change this year. The preseason OLINE average 6-5 315 (not 308) is fast, stronger and meaner than last year. A transfer running back from Tennessee, a transferring O linemen from Miami, the #33 center in the nation in High School in 2016 (now a sophomore), will all contribute to moving the ball on the ground. This makes their already stellar offense and all american quarterback even better. Their defense will be significantly improved overall as well. Transfers from Arkansas and stellar linebackers returning, more speed and size in the secondary make for an improved defense. I expect Samford to be in the top 25 nationally in the preseason polls and finish 9-2 over all. That should get them a SoCon title. They do have a difficult schedule though (The SOCON always is) but they are playing 5 top 30 teams in the FCS and that does not include their game against the University of Georgia this year. Georgia is ranked somewhere between 7th and 17th depending on which poll you read. Tough road ahead, but they are prepped to move to the top.
    To rebut:

    1. Samford is likely not going to start playing stingy defense and running the ball. Chris Hatcher is the coach and he is what he is. They threw the ball nearly 200 times more than the next team in the SoCon last season.

    2. I'm not sure how you gauge "meanness" on a preseason roster.

    3. If Samford had a bunch of 6'5 315 pound offensive linemen that could dominate opposing defenses, run, and block, they would be playing for Alabama, not Samford.

    4. High school numbers and rankings are perfectly irrelevant. A friend of mine played offensive tackle at Troy. He was 6'5 310 in college. Said he dominated at the high school level because he was simply bigger and stronger than everyone he played. At the D1 level, though, he became fairly mediocre. At this level, a vast size and strength advantage is significantly mitigated.

    5. There are always exceptions, but many transfers simply are not talented enough to play where they currently are. Just because a guy gets a scholarship offer from "Big School U" doesn't make him a supremely talented football player. I cannot tell you how many transfers I've seen come into the SoCon with great fanfare that ended up never really even seeing the field. Happens every year.

    6. Were I a Samford fan, I would be slightly concerned about the need to take on so many transfers. What message does this send to the players you recruited? Commit to the program but if we find some guy looking for a change of scenery, we will replace you? Again, if you are finding the need to take on half a dozen transfers, what does that suggest about recruiting efforts and the ability to create depth on your roster? So many holes you have to go find ringers to fill them?

    I think Samford will be a good team. I do think they have established a deserved reputation of being a great September team, but not so hot in November. I do not currently see them as one of the top teams in the conference, but as we find out every year, there are always surprises.
    FU all the time.

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  2. #22
    Major FCS Ruler SU DOG's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinFan View Post
    To rebut:

    1. Samford is likely not going to start playing stingy defense and running the ball. Chris Hatcher is the coach and he is what he is. They threw the ball nearly 200 times more than the next team in the SoCon last season.

    2. I'm not sure how you gauge "meanness" on a preseason roster.

    3. If Samford had a bunch of 6'5 315 pound offensive linemen that could dominate opposing defenses, run, and block, they would be playing for Alabama, not Samford.

    4. High school numbers and rankings are perfectly irrelevant. A friend of mine played offensive tackle at Troy. He was 6'5 310 in college. Said he dominated at the high school level because he was simply bigger and stronger than everyone he played. At the D1 level, though, he became fairly mediocre. At this level, a vast size and strength advantage is significantly mitigated.

    5. There are always exceptions, but many transfers simply are not talented enough to play where they currently are. Just because a guy gets a scholarship offer from "Big School U" doesn't make him a supremely talented football player. I cannot tell you how many transfers I've seen come into the SoCon with great fanfare that ended up never really even seeing the field. Happens every year.

    6. Were I a Samford fan, I would be slightly concerned about the need to take on so many transfers. What message does this send to the players you recruited? Commit to the program but if we find some guy looking for a change of scenery, we will replace you? Again, if you are finding the need to take on half a dozen transfers, what does that suggest about recruiting efforts and the ability to create depth on your roster? So many holes you have to go find ringers to fill them?

    I think Samford will be a good team. I do think they have established a deserved reputation of being a great September team, but not so hot in November. I do not currently see them as one of the top teams in the conference, but as we find out every year, there are always surprises.
    I'm not as optimistic as my new Samford Fan is. I think that for whatever reason, we actually underachieved(even with making the Playoffs) this past year, and I have been disappointed too many times for more years than I would like to admit. The nucleus is here for a VERY good 2017 season, however, as the talent level is definitely here.

    I would like to address the 6 rebuttals that my FU friend has listed.

    #1 You are right in that this is THE question - will Hatcher actually have a decent running game? I know that he says this is a priority for this year, but we'll just have to wait and see.

    #2 I agree with FU fan on this one.

    #3 Not completely true. In the last 4 years, Samford has put 5 guys in the NFL. Bradberry is ranked as the #1 CB rookie in the league, and was drafted ahead of any player that Auburn sent last year. I'm sure that Furman has some guys that could play for SC or Clemson also.

    #4 Yes and No. A good BIG man will simply beat a good little man. Size does matter, but yeah, he can look like Tarzan and play like Jane, it just depends on the player.

    #5 Sorry that Ingle Martin didn't work out for you.

    #6 Wrong. Samford only signed 2 this year, as of now. We are in a unique situation in that transfers here will often be lower level FBS players that want to get back close to home, and I can assure you that they have to have the academics. The B'ham metro area is a huge resource for players, as Furman obviously knows.

    Your closing paragraph with the November letdown comment, I wish I could argue, but I'll have to admit there is truth in that assessment. What concerns me also is the perception that we are sometimes soft. Again, however, there is evidence, unfortunately, to support that.

  3. #23
    Major FCS Ruler FUBeAR's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by SU DOG View Post
    I would like to address the 6 rebuttals that my FU friend has listed.

    #3 Not completely true. In the last 4 years, Samford has put 5 guys in the NFL. Bradberry is ranked as the #1 CB rookie in the league, and was drafted ahead of any player that Auburn sent last year. I'm sure that Furman has some guys that could play for SC or Clemson also.

    #6 Wrong. Samford only signed 2 this year, as of now. We are in a unique situation in that transfers here will often be lower level FBS players that want to get back close to home
    Partial Semi-Re-Rebuttal...

    #3 - I think you missed PaladinFan's point. His comments apply specifically to O-Linemen. How many of those Sammy NFL Players are O-Lineman? There are rare circumstances where an NFL-sized O-Lineman who has the ability to PLAY will not be scooped up out of HS by FBS P5 Programs, but, by far, IMO, the large majority of these 6-6 (even 6-5) 300#+ O-Lineman who sign with FCS Teams out of HS are just not very good. Sometimes they develop into decent players, but most of the time they don't. For reasons outside the scope of this partial semi-re-rebuttal, they still end up on the field and they often end up on FCS All-Conference Teams, etc...but...they are still not very good players. The rare few that do end up playing at the next level are the exceptions I cited earlier. Most FCS O-Lines would be much better off playing the 6-3/6-4 280# OL players that are REALLY "Players,"...but they won't because of those complicated outside the scope reasons. So, like me, PaladinFan is wholly unimpressed with any "Measurable" stats of a Team's OLine. I imagine, he, like me, looks at 1 thing to evaluate an O-Lineman. Did he get his man blocked effectively on each play? If he can do that 85-90% of the time, he can play on my O-Line regardless of the length of his inseam.

    #6 - So, is that the situation for Sammy's SEC (UTenn) Transfer RB in this signing class; he wanted to be closer to home? That extra 45 minutes from ATL to Knoxville vs. B'Ham was wearing on him too much? And the OL Transfer from Miami - he wanted to cut that 2 hours off of his commute from Tallahassee to Miami vs. Tally to B'ham? OK...if you say so...
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  4. #24
    Master FCS Advocate youcanbankit's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinFan View Post
    Just my opinion (and a few others on here, I suppose), but an offensive lineman's height and weight matter very little. If a guy is of significant size and is passed up by the big programs, he may well have a hole in his game. I don't think even the Atlanta Falcons average 6'5 308 on their offensive line. There are, of course, exceptions.

    I'm also typically underwhelmed by transfers. I've said on here dozens of times that you could probably count the truly impact transfers in the SoCon on one hand. Many times those guys either come with baggage or simply weren't good enough to play where they started.

    Further, I often find that transfers, like big trade-deadline acquisitions in baseball, indicate that the acquiring team has some major gaps in their roster. I think without dispute, teams that build their roster with a heavy dose of transfer players rarely (if ever) succeed at this level.

    As you note, the issue is going to be the defense. I would say that is always the issue with a team coached by Chris Hatcher. Hatcher most certainly does not have a track record of winning the big game. He's a good coach, but Valdosta State was a long time ago and with very different restrictions on who he could bring it to play.
    I understand your doubts, based on your own experience with your coaches and teams. Size, strength and speed do matter when running the football. Its physics not hype. If you only have one of the three, it can definitely show holes in the game. But with all three, it gets down to execution, and they are going to be able to do that this year. Samford is poised to have a great year. Proof is on the way.

  5. #25
    Master FCS Advocate youcanbankit's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD

    Quote Originally Posted by kdinva View Post
    ....and the beat goes on....
    Its the rhythm of momentum, leading to winning. What a beautiful sound.

  6. #26
    Major FCS Ruler SU DOG's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by FUBeAR View Post
    Partial Semi-Re-Rebuttal...

    #3 - I think you missed PaladinFan's point. His comments apply specifically to O-Linemen. How many of those Sammy NFL Players are O-Lineman? There are rare circumstances where an NFL-sized O-Lineman who has the ability to PLAY will not be scooped up out of HS by FBS P5 Programs, but, by far, IMO, the large majority of these 6-6 (even 6-5) 300#+ O-Lineman who sign with FCS Teams out of HS are just not very good. Sometimes they develop into decent players, but most of the time they don't. For reasons outside the scope of this partial semi-re-rebuttal, they still end up on the field and they often end up on FCS All-Conference Teams, etc...but...they are still not very good players. The rare few that do end up playing at the next level are the exceptions I cited earlier. Most FCS O-Lines would be much better off playing the 6-3/6-4 280# OL players that are REALLY "Players,"...but they won't because of those complicated outside the scope reasons. So, like me, PaladinFan is wholly unimpressed with any "Measurable" stats of a Team's OLine. I imagine, he, like me, looks at 1 thing to evaluate an O-Lineman. Did he get his man blocked effectively on each play? If he can do that 85-90% of the time, he can play on my O-Line regardless of the length of his inseam.

    #6 - So, is that the situation for Sammy's SEC (UTenn) Transfer RB in this signing class; he wanted to be closer to home? That extra 45 minutes from ATL to Knoxville vs. B'Ham was wearing on him too much? And the OL Transfer from Miami - he wanted to cut that 2 hours off of his commute from Tallahassee to Miami vs. Tally to B'ham? OK...if you say so...
    There are certainly OL on NFL rosters who played in the FCS. I agree with you 100% that it is rare, but it does happen.

    As for #6, if you read carefully I said this is OFTEN the case(large percentage), and Bradberry is the shining example of one of those that came back home.

  7. #27
    Major FCS Ruler SU DOG's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by youcanbankit View Post
    I understand your doubts, based on your own experience with your coaches and teams. Size, strength and speed do matter when running the football. Its physics not hype. If you only have one of the three, it can definitely show holes in the game. But with all three, it gets down to execution, and they are going to be able to do that this year. Samford is poised to have a great year. Proof is on the way.
    Hope you are right - I am SO ready for that proof.

  8. #28
    Master FCS Advocate youcanbankit's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinFan View Post
    To rebut:

    1. Samford is likely not going to start playing stingy defense and running the ball. Chris Hatcher is the coach and he is what he is. They threw the ball nearly 200 times more than the next team in the SoCon last season.

    Rebut - SO wrong. His defensive coordinator/coaches are all about continuous improvement. Defense has been slowly improving year over year. Will continue this year.

    Hatcher - When he has the weapons, he runs the ball too. People dont get that about him. Because of his recent quick changes at Georgia Southern and Murray State, the circumstances did not allow him to build his team model. Valdosta State championship stats prove it. The weapons have now arrived.


    2. I'm not sure how you gauge "meanness" on a preseason roster.

    Rebut - Simple Watching Game Film

    3. If Samford had a bunch of 6'5 315 pound offensive linemen that could dominate opposing defenses, run, and block, they would be playing for Alabama, not Samford.

    Rebut - When they arrived they were not developed physically. Samford hired Alabama's #2 strength coach and #2 Nutritionist 2 years ago, and recent starting fullback 1 year ago as an offensive coach. Their new programs are already reflecting in the success and influencing the program in new directions. The change is easy to see.

    4. High school numbers and rankings are perfectly irrelevant. A friend of mine played offensive tackle at Troy. He was 6'5 310 in college. Said he dominated at the high school level because he was simply bigger and stronger than everyone he played. At the D1 level, though, he became fairly mediocre. At this level, a vast size and strength advantage is significantly mitigated.

    Rebut - Its about size, strength and Speed. Then executing. These kids can play. Some of them came to Samford because of the education and christian influence.

    5. There are always exceptions, but many transfers simply are not talented enough to play where they currently are. Just because a guy gets a scholarship offer from "Big School U" doesn't make him a supremely talented football player. I cannot tell you how many transfers I've seen come into the SoCon with great fanfare that ended up never really even seeing the field. Happens every year.

    Rebut - Sometimes its about kids who messed up and need a positive spiritual influence in their life. Talented enough to play but not disciplined in their off the field behavior.

    6. Were I a Samford fan, I would be slightly concerned about the need to take on so many transfers. What message does this send to the players you recruited? Commit to the program but if we find some guy looking for a change of scenery, we will replace you? Again, if you are finding the need to take on half a dozen transfers, what does that suggest about recruiting efforts and the ability to create depth on your roster? So many holes you have to go find ringers to fill them?

    Rebut - Three transfers who see where the program is going, believe and want to be a part of it is hardly an issue with recruited players the past to three years.

    I think Samford will be a good team. I do think they have established a deserved reputation of being a great September team, but not so hot in November. I do not currently see them as one of the top teams in the conference, but as we find out every year, there are always surprises.
    Agreed. the proof will be on the field. Predicting just two more wins this year than last year.

  9. #29
    Master FCS Advocate youcanbankit's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by FUBeAR View Post
    Partial Semi-Re-Rebuttal...

    #3 - I think you missed PaladinFan's point. His comments apply specifically to O-Linemen. How many of those Sammy NFL Players are O-Lineman? There are rare circumstances where an NFL-sized O-Lineman who has the ability to PLAY will not be scooped up out of HS by FBS P5 Programs, but, by far, IMO, the large majority of these 6-6 (even 6-5) 300#+ O-Lineman who sign with FCS Teams out of HS are just not very good. Sometimes they develop into decent players, but most of the time they don't. For reasons outside the scope of this partial semi-re-rebuttal, they still end up on the field and they often end up on FCS All-Conference Teams, etc...but...they are still not very good players. The rare few that do end up playing at the next level are the exceptions I cited earlier. Most FCS O-Lines would be much better off playing the 6-3/6-4 280# OL players that are REALLY "Players,"...but they won't because of those complicated outside the scope reasons. So, like me, PaladinFan is wholly unimpressed with any "Measurable" stats of a Team's OLine. I imagine, he, like me, looks at 1 thing to evaluate an O-Lineman. Did he get his man blocked effectively on each play? If he can do that 85-90% of the time, he can play on my O-Line regardless of the length of his inseam.

    Rebut - I understand your viewpoint due to your own experiences with your own team and their inability to recruit the bigger/faster/stronger guys who can play with heart. But it is possible to recruit size, speed, strength and heart. Watch some film you will see it. Just looking at stats or film is only part of the story. But I know we agree the game is won in the trenches. You also need to check your facts about FCS players and High school. Doesn't match the facts.

    The work ethic is also different. A better and improved grind makes a huge difference. Samford hired Alabama's #2 strength coach and #2 Nutritionist 2 years ago, and recent starting fullback 1 year ago as an offensive coach. Their new programs and ideas are already reflecting in the success and influencing the program in new directions.


    #6 - So, is that the situation for Sammy's SEC (UTenn) Transfer RB in this signing class; he wanted to be closer to home? That extra 45 minutes from ATL to Knoxville vs. B'Ham was wearing on him too much? And the OL Transfer from Miami - he wanted to cut that 2 hours off of his commute from Tallahassee to Miami vs. Tally to B'ham? OK...if you say so...

    Rebut - No not really. These kids can play. Some of them came to Samford because of the education, the atmosphere and christian influence. Sometimes its about kids who messed up and need a positive spiritual influence in their life. Talented enough to play but not disciplined in their off the field behavior. Is doesn't hurt to keep having guys taken into the NFL either.Closer to home is a by product if anything.

    Oh Yeah.....

  10. #30
    First Class FCS Ruler Bucs2016's Avatar
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    Re: SAMFORD PICKED TO WIN THE SOCON in 2017

    Anyone can predict who will win it. But Citadel is the King of the SoCon until someone else takes it.
    Yeah our stadium is a dump. But your mama has season tickets.

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