NEC and Patriot Leage approaching a football crossroad?

[aceinthehole]

Yes, according to another editorial in the Asbury Park Press.


As Monmouth University hosts Colgate for the first time Saturday, it’s a clash between school’s whose conferences, the Northeast Conference and Patriot League, respectively, are approaching a football crossroad.

Some programs, like the Hawks and Raiders, would be willing to explore increased funding to level the playing field with top-tier FCS programs, while others are seeking to hold the line, or even reduce their commitment to the sport.

The end result could be a football-only conference with like-minded schools banding together in a regional league,

“It’s something that could happen naturally over time,’’ said Monmouth University president Paul Gaffney, who was instrumental in the NEC’s push to 40 scholarships by 2013. “We would consider additional scholarships, and maybe it’s not all the way up to 63, but there are schools out there willing to increase their commitments as well.’’

Hypothetically, NEC schools like Monmouth, Albany, Robert Morris and Central Connecticut might be interested in increasing scholarships, along with Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Fordham, which has already abandoned the Patriot League’s “scholarship equivalents’’ in favor of true athletic scholarships.

Maybe Rhode Island, which will be an NEC team by 2013, decides to hold the line on funding, and a team or two from the Colonial Athletic Association decide they want to play games closer to home.

At that point you have a nine or 10-team football conference along the lines of the CAA, with all other sports remaining unchanged.

http://www.app.com/article/20111007/NJCOLUMNIST09/310070032/Victories-would-help-program-s-cause?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CSports

[Bogus Megapardus]

Monmouth University President Paul Gaffney is a stellar individual. His efforts have been a considerable benefit to Monmouth's football program and to the institution as a whole.

[DFW HOYA]

Not sure what crossroads that you are referring to. The NEC seems to have a plan and teams are moving in that direction.

The PL has no plan and seems to take comfort in this.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hypothetically, NEC schools like Monmouth, Albany, Robert Morris and Central Connecticut might be interested in increasing scholarships, along with Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Fordham, which has already abandoned the Patriot League’s “scholarship equivalents’’ in favor of true athletic scholarships.

That Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate have joined Fordham in offering aid not tied to financial need certainly is news to me. Lehigh, Colgate, and Lafayette still convert the "loan" part of need-based aid and make it a "grant", but that's hardly the same thing as a true athletic scholarship.

However, the fact that the nuts and bolts aren't correct doesn't mean that this isn't news. The idea that NEC and PL schools could "gravitate towards a regional league over time", endorsed by a school president, no less, is huge news - sort-of like a "Gateway" or "Yankee" conference for the schools that want to have 63 schollies/equivalents and play FBS schools as counters, and one with a smaller scholarship minimum - or maybe pure need-based aid, as a Pioneer equivalent.

It's an idea I've entertained, too. The question is, though - have the PL presidents even entertained, or are they willing to entertain, such an idea?

[DFW HOYA]

The idea that NEC and PL schools could "gravitate towards a regional league over time", endorsed by a school president, no less, is huge news - sort-of like a "Gateway" or "Yankee" conference for the schools that want to have 63 schollies/equivalents and play FBS schools as counters, and one with a smaller scholarship minimum - or maybe pure need-based aid, as a Pioneer equivalent.It's an idea I've entertained, too. The question is, though - have the PL presidents even entertained, or are they willing to entertain, such an idea?

What's the gain to the presidents? Lafayette does not want to be relegated into a group with St. Francis and Sacred Heart.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's the gain to the presidents? Lafayette does not want to be relegated into a group with St. Francis and Sacred Heart.

To allow all these disparate schools to keep playing football in the Northeast. In the past five years, five schools have dropped football, one has jumped to FBS, and another is considering it. The survival of football in the Northeast, to me, is a pretty open question, and if this allows teams to keep sponsoring football, it's worth looking at.

All the model would be different than what the SoCon and CAA do: it would preserve of pure need-based, limited scholarship, or some sort of limted/need-based hybrid model that allows folks to get to 63.

It's worth noting that, like the PL, the NEC has had success and now has an AQ, but it's also not a model that others have followed.

[Franks Tanks]

That Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate have joined Fordham in offering aid not tied to financial need certainly is news to me. Lehigh, Colgate, and Lafayette still convert the "loan" part of need-based aid and make it a "grant", but that's hardly the same thing as a true athletic scholarship.

However, the fact that the nuts and bolts aren't correct doesn't mean that this isn't news. The idea that NEC and PL schools could "gravitate towards a regional league over time", endorsed by a school president, no less, is huge news - sort-of like a "Gateway" or "Yankee" conference for the schools that want to have 63 schollies/equivalents and play FBS schools as counters, and one with a smaller scholarship minimum - or maybe pure need-based aid, as a Pioneer equivalent.

It's an idea I've entertained, too. The question is, though - have the PL presidents even entertained, or are they willing to entertain, such an idea?

I think that was just poor phrasing by the author. The idea makes sense to an outsider, but those of us who know how the schools of the PL operate realize even a simple proposal such as this has little chance of coming to fruition.

Given the general reluctance of PL schools to do anything new with athletics, it is a minor miracle there is a PL at all. The fact that these people actually made a decisive decision at one point is amazing.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The PL has no plan and seems to take comfort in this.

The Patriot League had a very distinct plan upon its organization. That plan is spelled out with considerable clarity in its published charter. I am aware of no other athletic conference with a plan published in such detail.

Whether that plan now functions to the liking of any individual or institution is a matter of subjective debate. Whether it functions even as well as its collective members desire at present remains an open issue.

But for you to suggest that the Patriot League has no plan at all is atypically imprecise.

[DFW HOYA]

But for you to suggest that the Patriot League has no plan at all is atypically imprecise.

Long term plan? Agreed. Short term planning? Not so much.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Long term plan? Agreed. Short term planning? Not so much.

You mean the "Stick with the status quo, and pray Fordham doesn't leave" short-term strategy?

[RichH2]

You mean the "Stick with the status quo, and pray Fordham doesn't leave" short-term strategy?

Ah , yes the uber secret strategy of our esteemed leaders. Interesting article, and just based on football not a bad one. Our Presidents will never besmirch the PL ACADEMIC REP BY ASSOCIATING ITSELF WITH ANY AGREEMENTthat could in any way seem to indicate that we are not THE designated Ivy League Lite

[danefan]

Makes sense but it would require the Patriot League presidents to get off their high horse and acknowledge the NEC schools..........

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/10/friday-water-cooler-patriot-league-and.html

What might two leagues - one "hybrid", up-to-63 scholarship league, and a 63 convertible need-based league - look like?

[danefan]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/10/friday-water-cooler-patriot-league-and.html

What might two leagues - one "hybrid", up-to-63 scholarship league, and a 63 convertible need-based league - look like?



Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate
Albany
Monmouth
Holy Cross
Central Connecticut State
Rhode Island


Stony Brook and Fordham would jump in on that in heartbeat and you wouldn't need UNH and/or Maine.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You mean the "Stick with the status quo, and pray Fordham doesn't leave" short-term strategy?

I'm not sure there's too much praying going on. It seems to me that Fordham is gone with or without PL scholarships. My sense is that Fordham views itself as existing on a more national scale than its league-mates. Fordham also seems to claim a broader and more robust football heritage than exists within the PL, entitling it to more substantial athletic renown that would be available to it even in a scholarship Patriot League.

If one views Fordham as a comparative example of superior short-term strategic planning, then its association with the league effectively is over, regardless.

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/10/friday-water-cooler-patriot-league-and.html

What might two leagues - one "hybrid", up-to-63 scholarship league, and a 63 convertible need-based league - look like?

I'll place a gentleman's bet that LFN at first had the Pards relegated to the "lower" half, then thought about the gruff he'd take . . . xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'll place a gentleman's bet that LFN at first had the Pards relegated to the "lower" half, then thought about the gruff he'd take . . . xlolx

xlolx

But seriously, nobody at Lafayette would seriously go to a different league that's less than their biggest rival. Besides, they'd be able to still declare victory: "Fordham wanted 63 unrestricted scholarships. We drew a line in the sand, and said, 'no, there's got to be a better way'. And this is it."

[dgreco]

Stony Brook and Fordham would jump in on that in heartbeat and you wouldn't need UNH and/or Maine.

Am I also curious about Bryant. I am 95% sure right now they offer less than 10 scholarships, but they are doing so because they feel like they are competing without giving the money out. However, Bryant seems to be committed to funding their programs and if this so called football only leagues formed I wouldn't be surprised to see Bryant in the full-funded division.

Again, maybe they are lucky with less than 10 scholarships and don't want to add more, but the word is that they are satisfied working this way, but when the time comes they will up their funding as needed. As can be seen in just the staff. Bryant went from 3-4 fulltime coaches in year 1 to over 10 now I believe.

Also, would a Marist leave the Pioneer League for a low funded northeast FCS league?

[Ken_Z]

so much nonsense in two pages is amazing

[Lehigh Football Nation]

so much nonsense in two pages is amazing

Cue carney in 3...2...1... xlolx

But seriously, Ken_Z, while all this stuff is speculation, there has to be something said for the fact that Monmouth's prez said these things? He's said more about the future of football in the Northeast in one article than the rest of the PL presidents combined in the last five years. In fact, the PL office has also gone out of its way to say "there will be no more public statement on the matter" in terms of the future of their own conference.

Maybe your Bison want to be in the 36/27 conference?

[Bogus Megapardus]

so much nonsense in two pages is amazing

The author of the Asbury Park Press article hasn't much of a clue about the workings of FCS football or the peculiar gestalt of the Patriot League. On the other hand, I wouldn't imagine Paul Gaffney to be an individual prone to making such statements frivolously.

[danefan]

The author of the Asbury Park Press article hasn't much of a clue about the workings of FCS football or the peculiar gestalt of the Patriot League. On the other hand, I wouldn't imagine Paul Gaffney to be an individual prone to making such statements frivolously.

Asbury Park Press has historically provided pretty good coverage of all things NEC football related. Especially on the scholarship front.

And yes I agree that President Gaffney, who was heavily involved in getting football scholarships in the NEC and the Auto-bid, knows what he's talking about.

[aceinthehole]

While I agree with the premise of the editorial that both league are appraching a "crossroad" regarding football support, I don't see how such football-only conference could be established with a few MAJOR changes.

1) The NCAA doesn't engourage sport-specific conferences. These league get no representation/vote on NCAA matters. Of course, the football leage could be develop a new "brand" and just administered by an existing league. What league is in the position to do that?

2) Most of the PL/NEC schools that have indicated the desire to increase their committmnent and want to be a FBS counter, but that 63 number is still very high. Yes, Stony Brook and Fordham have jumped to the magic number of 63, but I would guess most schools would prefer 57. If the NCAA would drop counter status to this number, I think the PL and NEC "issues" would go away. The NEC would lift the cap to 57 and the PL would likely let its teams get to 57 a hybrid model.

3) The "new league" LFN proposed is basically the PL (minus Bucknell and G-town), plus NY/NJ/NE public programs in the NEC or CAA. If this is the proposed composition of the league, then why doesn't the PL just take the lead and offer affilate status to these new members? Why create new leagues, if only Bucknell and G-town are the holdouts? It just doesn't make sense. Also, call it what you want - but I have no reason to think Lafayette or Lehigh want to be in a league with CCSU and Albany under any circumstances. Albany applied (or discussed) PL memebrship when they went DI and were rebuked.

4) While I think the NEC does face some future decisions on the direction of the league, as this year is showing the league has become more competative with the addition of limited schollys. I think in these tough economic times and conference realignment, the NEC has at least 4 more years of stability under the current structure. We are just in year 2 of the AQ, we add URI and max out at 40 scholarships in 2013. IMO, there are potential changes in all-sports memebrship may take precedence over some of these football-specific issues.

[MplsBison]

Counter status is 90% of 63 or 56.7 scholarship equivalencies. It's been that for a while.

[danefan]

Counter status is 90% of 63 or 56.7 scholarship equivalencies. It's been that for a while.

And?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Stony Brook and Fordham would jump in on that in heartbeat and you wouldn't need UNH and/or Maine.

Are you sure Stony Brook would jump in? Wouldn't the NEC have to be the sponsor of this league? I mean CCSU and Monmouth are all sports members of the NEC, aren't they required to play football in the NEC as long as they sponsor a league at the same level?

FWIW, if this somehow happened and it was a 63 scholarship league, then I think UNH and Maine would listen very closely to offers. JMHO, but Delaware, Towson, Richmond and William & Mary might too if JMU, ODU and GaStU push onward toward FBS.

I just don't see how anything like this happens unless the CAA sponsors two leagues (one FBS and one FCS). America East isn't going to make it happen. The Patriot won't budge on the AI so they won't be the sponsor. The NEC will be over ruled by Sacred Heart, Bryant, Duquesne, Robert Morris, SFPA and/or Wagner. The only other way I could see it happening is if a Big East implosion leads to an implosion of the A-10 which resulted in Fordham and URI looking for a new all sports home. Would they agree to align with Maine, UNH, Albany, Stony Brook, CCSU, Monmouth, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross in a brand new all sports conference? Somehow I think the ADs have already thought of this, but it doesn't seem to be any nearer to reality. xtwocentsx

[MplsBison]

And?



2) Most of the PL/NEC schools that have indicated the desire to increase their committmnent and want to be a FBS counter, but that 63 number is still very high. Yes, Stony Brook and Fordham have jumped to the magic number of 63, but I would guess most schools would prefer 57. If the NCAA would drop counter status to this number, I think the PL and NEC "issues" would go away.

That would be the post directly above mine. As in, the one right before mine.

[danefan]

That would be the post directly above mine. As in, the one right before mine.

I misread Ace's statement. I thought he was saying drop the counter status below the 57. Not to the 57.

Apologies

[LUHawker]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/10/friday-water-cooler-patriot-league-and.html

What might two leagues - one "hybrid", up-to-63 scholarship league, and a 63 convertible need-based league - look like?

Terrible idea, Chuck. I think and several reporters (Reinhard, Haley) seem to indicate that schollies are most likely coming to the PL (# and in what form are open questions) so why would the PL schools in favor of schollies throw away 25 yrs of branding if another year of waiting gets them to the right place.

To me, the PL (shockingly) really looks like an island of calm in a stormy sea of change. With the possible addition of schollies, it will be a very attractive league. Please don't push these crazy league alliance ideas for a short term fix at the expense of the long term outlook for the league as I think your impatience with the process is getting the better of you. Give me the PL with schollies, Fordham and the departure of G'town over a bag of misfits trying to have a football conference.

[dgreco]

Are you sure Stony Brook would jump in? Wouldn't the NEC have to be the sponsor of this league? I mean CCSU and Monmouth are all sports members of the NEC, aren't they required to play football in the NEC as long as they sponsor a league at the same level?

FWIW, if this somehow happened and it was a 63 scholarship league, then I think UNH and Maine would listen very closely to offers. JMHO, but Delaware, Towson, Richmond and William & Mary might too if JMU, ODU and GaStU push onward toward FBS.

I just don't see how anything like this happens unless the CAA sponsors two leagues (one FBS and one FCS). America East isn't going to make it happen. The Patriot won't budge on the AI so they won't be the sponsor. The NEC will be over ruled by Sacred Heart, Bryant, Duquesne, Robert Morris, SFPA and/or Wagner. The only other way I could see it happening is if a Big East implosion leads to an implosion of the A-10 which resulted in Fordham and URI looking for a new all sports home. Would they agree to align with Maine, UNH, Albany, Stony Brook, CCSU, Monmouth, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross in a brand new all sports conference? Somehow I think the ADs have already thought of this, but it doesn't seem to be any nearer to reality. xtwocentsx

Again, I am not sure Bryant should be affiliated with the "we don't want to increase funding" group. Other than football Bryant fully funds all of its programs and has been pretty open to bringing in big name coaches and staff--Mike Pressler (we all know), Time O'Shea (poached him from a FBS conference to come to Bryant) and Sal Alosi (the famous NY Jets tripping on the sideline incident) all while making the push to DI...

[UAalum72]

Wouldn't the NEC have to be the sponsor of this league? I mean CCSU and Monmouth are all sports members of the NEC, aren't they required to play football in the NEC as long as they sponsor a league at the same level?

Not if you define full-scholarship and limited- as different levels, just as when Duquesne and Dayton were in different, non-scholarship leagues while the A-10 sponsored football (or liek Loyola and Fairfield lacrosse are now in a league other than the MAAC).

[aceinthehole]

Are you sure Stony Brook would jump in? Wouldn't the NEC have to be the sponsor of this league? I mean CCSU and Monmouth are all sports members of the NEC, aren't they required to play football in the NEC as long as they sponsor a league at the same level?

FWIW, if this somehow happened and it was a 63 scholarship league, then I think UNH and Maine would listen very closely to offers. JMHO, but Delaware, Towson, Richmond and William & Mary might too if JMU, ODU and GaStU push onward toward FBS.

I just don't see how anything like this happens unless the CAA sponsors two leagues (one FBS and one FCS). America East isn't going to make it happen. The Patriot won't budge on the AI so they won't be the sponsor. The NEC will be over ruled by Sacred Heart, Bryant, Duquesne, Robert Morris, SFPA and/or Wagner. The only other way I could see it happening is if a Big East implosion leads to an implosion of the A-10 which resulted in Fordham and URI looking for a new all sports home. Would they agree to align with Maine, UNH, Albany, Stony Brook, CCSU, Monmouth, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross in a brand new all sports conference? Somehow I think the ADs have already thought of this, but it doesn't seem to be any nearer to reality. xtwocentsx

1) If the NEC is unable to offer full-scholarship football, I'm sure the league would allow core members CCSU and Monmouth to play that sport in another league (as long as it doesn't put the NEC AQ in jepoardy for RMU, Wagner, et al).

2) I agree, conference realignment could have a major impact on FCS alignments in the next few years. What if JMU and ODU are able to get into a "new" C-USA with UMass, Temple, and a few others? What happens if the Big East is no longer a FBS footabll conference (UConn, Rutgers, WVU, etc. leave for the ACC/Big XII)? What does the new Big East and A-10 look like? How does this affect the Fordham, URI, UNH, Maine, Delaware, etc. ? Too much is going on for the need of a band-aid football league.

[DFW HOYA]

Give me the PL with schollies, Fordham and the departure of G'town over a bag of misfits trying to have a football conference.

Do we have to pay an exit fee? xrolleyesx

[Go...gate]

Monmouth University President Paul Gaffney is a stellar individual. His efforts have been a considerable benefit to Monmouth's football program and to the institution as a whole.

Damn well told.

[401ks]

...and it's a four-way stop!

xrolleyesx

[Go...gate]

Cue carney in 3...2...1... xlolx

But seriously, Ken_Z, while all this stuff is speculation, there has to be something said for the fact that Monmouth's prez said these things? He's said more about the future of football in the Northeast in one article than the rest of the PL presidents combined in the last five years. In fact, the PL office has also gone out of its way to say "there will be no more public statement on the matter" in terms of the future of their own conference.

Maybe your Bison want to be in the 36/27 conference?

Also worth pointing out that Gaffney has really continued the upgrading of the Monmouth University Campus, as well as its relationships with other NJ colleges.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Patriot won't budge on the AI


To me, the PL (shockingly) really looks like an island of calm in a stormy sea of change.

I agree most of all with these two statements.

[bison137]

Time O'Shea (poached him from a FBS conference to come to Bryant)



Bryant didn't exactly "poach" O'Shea. He was going to be fired at the end of the upcoming season by their new AD and was given permission to interview at just about every northeastern D1 program that had an opening (including Bucknell, where he interviewed but was not a finalist). Ohio U was happy when he left.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Reading the Asbury Park Press article once again, the quotes from Admiral Gaffney don't really go quite so far as the author of the piece seems to infer. Gaffney seems only to be saying that some teams in the northeast (Colgate among them) are willing to increase scholarship support for football, and that Monmouth could be willing to do the same.

Gaffney is a Patriot League graduate so I would have to imagine that he's fully aware of the Academic Index restrictions in the PL. It doesn't appear as if those restrictions are going away anytime soon. The only FCS colleges in the northeast that might be able to fit within the AI would be New Hampshire and Villanova (and possibly Duquesne or Marist). Even then it would take quite a commitment from those institutions.

That's no reason not to level the playing field, however. Perhaps, then, somebody here with more knowledge than I could help me out here. It's my understanding that the Northeast Conference presently limits athletic merit aid for football to 36 equivalences (to be increased to 40 in the next few years). Is it true that the NEC scholarship limit for football considers all student aid, combining merit scholarships and need-based grant-in-aid equivalencies, so that the combination of the two may not exceed the prescribed upper limit?

On the other hand (and correct me if I'm wrong) the Patriot League prohibits athletic merit aid, but does not place any limit on need-based grants. In other words, PL schools always have been able to provide up to 63 need-based equivalencies through need-based grants. Some PL schools in the past have reached or come close to that figure.

Maybe both conferences could adopt separate formulae authorizing a specific combination of merit aid and need-based financial allowances, permitting both to reach FBS qualifying status as they see fit.

[danefan]

Reading the Asbury Park Press article once again, the quotes from Admiral Gaffney don't really go quite so far as the author of the piece seems to infer. Gaffney seems only to be saying that some teams in the northeast (Colgate among them) are willing to increase scholarship support for football, and that Monmouth could be willing to do the same.

Gaffney is a Patriot League graduate so I would have to imagine that he's fully aware of the Academic Index restrictions in the PL. It doesn't appear as if those restrictions are going away anytime soon. The only FCS colleges in the northeast that might be able to fit within the AI would be New Hampshire and Villanova (and possibly Duquesne or Marist). Even then it would take quite a commitment from those institutions.

That's no reason not to level the playing field, however. Perhaps, then, somebody here with more knowledge than I could help me out here. It's my understanding that the Northeast Conference presently limits athletic merit aid for football to 36 equivalences (to be increased to 40 in the next few years). Is it true that the NEC scholarship limit for football considers all student aid, combining merit scholarships and need-based grant-in-aid equivalencies, so that the combination of the two may not exceed the prescribed upper limit?

On the other hand (and correct me if I'm wrong) the Patriot League prohibits athletic merit aid, but does not place any limit on need-based grants. In other words, PL schools always have been able to provide up to 63 need-based equivalencies through need-based grants. Some PL schools in the past have reached or come close to that figure.

Maybe both conferences could adopt separate formulae authorizing a specific combination of merit aid and need-based financial allowances, permitting both to reach FBS qualifying status as they see fit.

yes. Any aid not available to regular student body is considered against the cap.

[MplsBison]

Reading the Asbury Park Press article once again, the quotes from Admiral Gaffney don't really go quite so far as the author of the piece seems to infer. Gaffney seems only to be saying that some teams in the northeast (Colgate among them) are willing to increase scholarship support for football, and that Monmouth could be willing to do the same.

Gaffney is a Patriot League graduate so I would have to imagine that he's fully aware of the Academic Index restrictions in the PL. It doesn't appear as if those restrictions are going away anytime soon. The only FCS colleges in the northeast that might be able to fit within the AI would be New Hampshire and Villanova (and possibly Duquesne or Marist). Even then it would take quite a commitment from those institutions.

That's no reason not to level the playing field, however. Perhaps, then, somebody here with more knowledge than I could help me out here. It's my understanding that the Northeast Conference presently limits athletic merit aid for football to 36 equivalences (to be increased to 40 in the next few years). Is it true that the NEC scholarship limit for football considers all student aid, combining merit scholarships and need-based grant-in-aid equivalencies, so that the combination of the two may not exceed the prescribed upper limit?

On the other hand (and correct me if I'm wrong) the Patriot League prohibits athletic merit aid, but does not place any limit on need-based grants. In other words, PL schools always have been able to provide up to 63 need-based equivalencies through need-based grants. Some PL schools in the past have reached or come close to that figure.

Maybe both conferences could adopt separate formulae authorizing a specific combination of merit aid and need-based financial allowances, permitting both to reach FBS qualifying status as they see fit.

They're both rightfully viewed by the NCAA for what they are: money that only football players can get because they're football players and for no other reason.


One doles out based on need, the other leaves it to the coach's discretion. So why take that delegation power away from the coach? No difference ethically, that's for sure. And you can can still self-impose whatever kind of AI you think is appropriate with either method.

[Bogus Megapardus]

They're both rightfully viewed for what they are: money that only football players can get because they're football players and for no other reason. One doles out based on need, the other leaves it to the coach's discretion.

So why take that delegation power away from the coach? No difference ethically, that's for sure. And you can can still self-impose whatever kind of AI you think is appropriate with either method.

Keep in mind that the mandate of every Patriot League coach is to recruit the best possible students who fit the academic, aptitudinal and behavioral norms of the institution. PL coaches knew when they took the job that their goal wasn't always to find the "best players" regardless of the other factors. So a PL coaches' decision won't always agree with a coaches' decision elsewhere, given an equal slate of candidates. PL institutions would have to alter, quite dramatically, the kinds of coaches that they hire in order for your construct to apply.

[MplsBison]

Keep in mind that the mandate of every Patriot League coach is to recruit the best possible students who fit the academic, aptitudinal and behavioral norms of the institution. PL coaches knew when they took the job that their goal wasn't always to find the "best players" regardless of the other factors. So a PL coaches' decision won't always agree with a coaches' decision elsewhere, given an equal slate of candidates. PL institutions would have to alter, quite dramatically, the kinds of coaches that they hire in order for your construct to apply.

All PL coaches would have to continue to recruit the best possible students who fit the academic, aptitudinal and behavioral norms of the institution in the scenario where the coach got to decide which players get a scholarship and how much money they receive.

Otherwise their recruits wouldn't be admitted to the school for one and for two they wouldn't get past the league's AI.


So with those barriers in place, there is no possible argument against having the coach get to decide which players should get the money and how much of it -- rather than the unfair practice of using the need basis to decide that.

[NFLCB2]

If Monmouth wants to take a huge step they should leave the NEC. The CAA north will consist of only Maine and UNH (Umass is leaving and URI is coming to the NEC). Those two programs are going to have to make a choice, I can see Maine and UNH forming a league with Albany and CCSU. Monmouth should follow both teams if Robert Morris chooses to follow which I can’t see them doing Monmouth could keep them as a OOC rival. Other teams to fill out the league could be Stony brook (take them out of the big south) or Fordham, URI (they can ATLEAST be a serious competitor at this level rather than having to face UMASS, JMU, Delaware) Wagner or Northeastern or Hofstra brings back their programs. Thats possibly an 8-10 team conference with the 2-3 OCC games and depending on who goes and who stay those OCC games can be close proximity games for example, if Wagner chose to stay then Monmouth can play RMU and Wagner and maybe Bryant or Scared Heart, then head into conference play. The biggest reward is if Monmouth ups the 63 and moves into that conference, they can make a huge push for a game with Rugters instead of them RU playing teams like Norfolk st. Can you imagine how much revenue that would make? They could title it “The Battle for route 18″, “The war at the shore”, the benefits would be more revenue and better recruits, doesnt that make for a competitive program? However I say it with a sad face it looks like Monmouth is steering more towards joining with those patriot league teams the only positive I can see there is Monmouth will always be in the hunt to win that conference and a game with Princeton (Yuck)!
Form a league with Maine and UNH!

[Fordham]

I'm not sure there's too much praying going on. It seems to me that Fordham is gone with or without PL scholarships. My sense is that Fordham views itself as existing on a more national scale than its league-mates. Fordham also seems to claim a broader and more robust football heritage than exists within the PL, entitling it to more substantial athletic renown that would be available to it even in a scholarship Patriot League.


Thats absolute nonsense Bogus. Your post is a perfect example of the oft-made mistake of assuming that anonymous message board posters actually have insight into the administration or staff's wishes.

Our staff told me directly at the end of July that a PL with schollies is their preferred choice and that they believe it would immediately become one of the best FCS conferences. I personally dont agree but that was their take fwiw. I also know that short of that a full scholarship conference like the one described here would be welcomed (and we've been actively working on it).

We all have knuckleheads on our boards. Dont assume that our AD is making some of these posts.

[DFW HOYA]

Our staff told me directly at the end of July that a PL with schollies is their preferred choice and that they believe it would immediately become one of the best FCS conferences.

One of the best? Not likely. (The Ivy Index will see to that.)

[Fordham]

Agreed, hence my line that followed. Thats what they said, though.

[Go...gate]

I sharedf this article with my brother, another Colgate grad/football fan and NJ resident. He was of the opinion that Monmouth was a public school. I have always believed they were a private college/university. What are they?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I sharedf this article with my brother, another Colgate grad/football fan and NJ resident. He was of the opinion that Monmouth was a public school. I have always believed they were a private college/university. What are they?

A private school; formerly a state-sponsored junior college (I think).

[DFW HOYA]

Monmouth was a junior college until 1956. That alone will scare off the PL brahmin.

http://www.monmouth.edu/about_monmouth/history/default.asp

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Monmouth was a junior college until 1956. That alone will scare off the PL brahmin.

http://www.monmouth.edu/about_monmouth/history/default.asp

You mean, more than the fact that Jon Bon Jovi has an honorary degree from there?

[Go...gate]

Terrible idea, Chuck. I think and several reporters (Reinhard, Haley) seem to indicate that schollies are most likely coming to the PL (# and in what form are open questions) so why would the PL schools in favor of schollies throw away 25 yrs of branding if another year of waiting gets them to the right place.

To me, the PL (shockingly) really looks like an island of calm in a stormy sea of change. With the possible addition of schollies, it will be a very attractive league. Please don't push these crazy league alliance ideas for a short term fix at the expense of the long term outlook for the league as I think your impatience with the process is getting the better of you. Give me the PL with schollies, Fordham and the departure of G'town over a bag of misfits trying to have a football conference.

Right now, we absolutely are, when what is going on elsewhere in Division I is considered. Indeed, the argument could be made that the Ivy, NEC and Patriot - and maybe the MAAC - are, collectively, the most stable all-sport conferences in Division I athletics.

[Ken_Z]

Your post is a perfect example of the oft-made mistake of assuming that anonymous message board posters actually have insight into the administration or staff's wishes.


thank you for bringing a dose of sanity to this thread.

[DFW HOYA]

Right now, we absolutely are, when what is going on elsewhere in Division I is considered. Indeed, the argument could be made that the Ivy, NEC and Patriot - and maybe the MAAC - are, collectively, the most stable all-sport conferences in Division I athletics.

How is the PL a stable conference? Its football league is one team over the NCAA minimum. Fordham is on its way to leaving, Georgetown is up for renewal in 2012, and Colgate would probably consider a jump to the CAA if offered, which would render PL sponsorship of football defunct. There is still no consensus on scholarship support, the league cannot execute its own TV package, and there are really no expansion targets appearing on the horizon.

[RichH2]

thank you for bringing a dose of sanity to this thread.

I really am surprised that anyone now expects much logic or sanity whenever the dreaded issue of athletic scholarships is even referred to. Not going to happen.
I do agree tho that ,even if we lack all those items DFW mentions, the PL has a certain aura of serenity around it for now. Not to be confused with the certainty of superiority surrounding the Ivies. I fear however that it is merely the calm before the storm. The ripples of change will flow thru the FCS w/o doubt. How the PL manages will be the story. Will Presidents take refuge in the Ivy harbor forever to be landlocked therein? Seems possible.

[DFW HOYA]

I really am surprised that anyone now expects much logic or sanity whenever the dreaded issue of athletic scholarships is even referred to. Not going to happen.
I do agree tho that ,even if we lack all those items DFW mentions, the PL has a certain aura of serenity around it for now.

Want a stormy scenario? Army and Navy take its programs to the Big East, not just football, ostensibly to share in the NCAA tournament distribution that the PL can't offer. Then what?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Your post is a perfect example of the oft-made mistake of assuming that anonymous message board posters actually have insight into the administration or staff's wishes.


thank you for bringing a dose of sanity to this thread.

I understand perfectly that Fordham's AD has been quoted as preferring to remain in the Patriot League for football - provided the league itself conforms to Fordham's expectations and to Fordham's standards. Some PL coaches, athletic directors and even presidents, have been quoted as preferring changes in in the league's merit aid structure as well. But none has suggested dispensing with the Academic Index, and none has proposed simply thumbing his/her nose at the league's charter - aside from Fordham.

Despite differences in approach, the the other PL schools seem to be interested in keeping the league together and in maintaining its integrity as a whole as measures to recreate competitive balance are assessed. None has proposed abandoning the league itself for the benefit of one associate member. So it's the actions, I suppose, that cry louder than do the quotations. Fordham's actions have told the rest of the PL to "shove it," unless the whole of the league alters its entire approach to match Fordham's desires.

In this light, I'm not so sure that my remarks here are as baseless and as unwarranted as they have been characterized.

[DFW HOYA]

But none has suggested dispensing with the Academic Index, and none has proposed simply thumbing his/her nose at the league's charter - aside from Fordham.

Ten years following the PL, and I've never understood this fanatical devotion to a "number" to put a throttle on football admits. Putting aside a "it keeps us in good stead with the Ivy" approach, the Index screams two things: 1) The PL does not trust its own schools to make its own admissions decisions, and 2) The PL does not seek to recruit the best talent available to these schools. Of course, not all the best talent will be available to any one school, of course, but the AI says if you're an All-American halfback that wants to go to Colgate and carry a 1100 SAT... sorry, we're not going to let Colgate recruit you.

Osmanski, Turco, Cousy, Heinsohn et al. all are renowned at Holy Cross, but in this "AI is everything" environment, how many would have even been admitted today?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ten years following the PL, and I've never understood this fanatical devotion to a "number" to put a throttle on football admits. Putting aside a "it keeps us in good stead with the Ivy" approach, the Index screams two things: 1) The PL does not trust its own schools to make its own admissions decisions, and 2) The PL does not seek to recruit the best talent available to these schools. Of course, not all the best talent will be available to any one school, of course, but the AI says if you're an All-American halfback that wants to go to Colgate and carry a 1100 SAT... sorry, we're not going to let Colgate recruit you.

Osmanski, Turco, Cousy, Heinsohn et al. all are renowned at Holy Cross, but in this "AI is everything" environment, how many would have even been admitted today?

The question, I suppose, is whether or not the Patriot League wants to become to football what Georgetown has become to basketball. The lesser-populated PL colleges in particular might not appreciate the same benefit in having a distinct, separately-admitted elite class on their small, residential campuses.

[Sader87]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;1694457]Ten years following the PL, and I've never understood this fanatical devotion to a "number" to put a throttle on football admits. Putting aside a "it keeps us in good stead with the Ivy" approach, the Index screams two things: 1) The PL does not trust its own schools to make its own admissions decisions, and 2) The PL does not seek to recruit the best talent available to these schools. Of course, not all the best talent will be available to any one school, of course, but the AI says if you're an All-American halfback that wants to go to Colgate and carry a 1100 SAT... sorry, we're not going to let Colgate recruit you.

OsmansHeinsohn et al. all are renowned at Holy Cross, but in this "AI is everything" environment, how many would have even been admitted today?[/ki, Turco, Cousy, QUOTE]


Not sure about the others, but the Cooz was a very good student...graduated HC with very high honors. But I agree with your thesis, HC never played games (egregiously so anyway) with regards to admission pre-PL. In fact many football players in the 1980's chose HC over Ivy offers because they were offered full football scholarships.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

How is the PL a stable conference? Its football league is one team over the NCAA minimum. Fordham is on its way to leaving, Georgetown is up for renewal in 2012, and Colgate would probably consider a jump to the CAA if offered, which would render PL sponsorship of football defunct. There is still no consensus on scholarship support, the league cannot execute its own TV package, and there are really no expansion targets appearing on the horizon.

Fordham and Georgetown are really the outliers in the PL right now. Fordham seems to want a full 63 scholarship competitive program, and the actions of Georgetown's administration make it seem as if they don't really care if they continue to support football or not.

I wonder what will become of Maine and UNH. I hope that they will continue to compete in the CAA. I don't see either one wanting to drop down to a less competitive league, especially UNH which usually does very well in CAA play. The only possible motivation for either to leave would be to save on travel costs. Another problem is that Maine and UNH are both only CAA-Football affiliate members, they play other sports under the America East banner.

The best solution, IMO, would be for the CAA to court Albany, Stony Brook, and Fordham all as full CAA all-sports members, break into North/South divisions again, and in return have UNH and Maine join the CAA as full all-sports members with the divisional schedule and lower travel costs. For football it could look like this (assuming 'Nova goes to the Big East and removing UMass and URI who are on the way out):

CAA North: UNH, Maine, Stony Brook, Albany, Fordham, Delaware

CAA South: Towson, JMU, W&M, ODU, Richmond, GA State

You have a nice 5 game round-robin for each team in each division, plus three from the other division alternating each year, and three games for each school to schedule on their own.

That would also leave Richmond as the last affiliate member, and if the Big East ends up taking Temple back, along with perhaps UMass and a couple basketball only A-10 schools, Richmond might find the CAA a more comfortable conference for all-sports membership.

[DFW HOYA]

The question, I suppose, is whether or not the Patriot League wants to become to football what Georgetown has become to basketball. The lesser-populated PL colleges in particular might not appreciate the same benefit in having a distinct, separately-admitted elite class on their small, residential campuses.

You realize (or maybe you don't) that athletes at Georgetown beyond basketball are admitted below an average SAT, excepting football of course?

A nationally ranked shortstop or an All-American midfielder could have better or worse scores than a point guard and be admitted because the 23 teams that compete in the Big East Conference have no mandated "index" from which schools have to fill in.

Where is your hue and cry that Georgetown's women's soccer players, its men's lacrosse players, or its long distance runners are "a distinct, separately-admitted elite class on their small, residential campuses"?


Fordham and Georgetown are really the outliers in the PL right now. Fordham seems to want a full 63 scholarship competitive program, and the actions of Georgetown's administration make it seem as if they don't really care if they continue to support football or not.

Georgetown's president seems to reiterate this every year and no one listens. He is fine with supporting football as is.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You realize (or maybe you don't) that athletes at Georgetown beyond basketball are admitted below an average SAT, excepting football of course?

I couldn't care less. Georgetown is a Big East school. Presumably it complies with whatever standards the Big East imposes. Only one insignificant, "third tier" sport (by its own definition) at Georgetown competes in the Patriot League, merely out of convenience. The absence of PL football at Georgetown hardly would be noticed at 37th and O just as its presence barely registers now.

My guess is that 3 out of 4 Georgetown students have no idea that Georgetown plays football in the PL to begin with. And why should they know? It's not like it's mentioned anywhere.

Georgetown will ride the fortunes of the Big East, whatsoever they might be. The Hoyas amply display their give-a-damn towards the Patriot League, year in and year out. Much more critical is flying to those volleyball matches at South Florida and DePaul. That's what really matters most. Home-and-home football with Dartmouth? No can do.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Georgetown's president seems to reiterate this every year and no one listens. He is fine with supporting football as is.

I've read the quotes, but actions louder than words and all that.

Football 'as is' at Georgetown means being a doormat in a midrange (as far as competitiveness goes) FCS conference. It means playing on a field which many high schools would find embarrassing and that doesn't even have a name. It means being at odds with the conference members who want to better their programs and increase their competitive level of play. Georgetown hasn't had a winning football season record since 1999.

Fine 'as is' means that no one up there really cares what happens to the program or how it fares as long as they don't have to spend much money on it. That attitude is barely a step above not caring about the existence of the program at all.

[Go...gate]

Want a stormy scenario? Army and Navy take its programs to the Big East, not just football, ostensibly to share in the NCAA tournament distribution that the PL can't offer. Then what?

Not a chance they go in all sports.

[Go...gate]

How is the PL a stable conference? Its football league is one team over the NCAA minimum. Fordham is on its way to leaving, Georgetown is up for renewal in 2012, and Colgate would probably consider a jump to the CAA if offered, which would render PL sponsorship of football defunct. There is still no consensus on scholarship support, the league cannot execute its own TV package, and there are really no expansion targets appearing on the horizon.

Never going to be offered and, in fact, it is dubious that we wouild accept. We don't have that much in common with the CAA - if anything, it would be a re-run of the old ECAC North Atlantic days when we were at the bottom most, if not each year in most sports.

Remember as well that the PL is an all-sports conference, and the all-sports members (save HC) seem to find PL competition satisfactiory outside the football loop.

[Go...gate]

You realize (or maybe you don't) that athletes at Georgetown beyond basketball are admitted below an average SAT, excepting football of course?

A nationally ranked shortstop or an All-American midfielder could have better or worse scores than a point guard and be admitted because the 23 teams that compete in the Big East Conference have no mandated "index" from which schools have to fill in.

Where is your hue and cry that Georgetown's women's soccer players, its men's lacrosse players, or its long distance runners are "a distinct, separately-admitted elite class on their small, residential campuses"?



Georgetown's president seems to reiterate this every year and no one listens. He is fine with supporting football as is.

Past quotes seem to indicate that your Prexy has some confusion as to what level of football the PL actually competes on.

[Go...gate]

I understand perfectly that Fordham's AD has been quoted as preferring to remain in the Patriot League for football - provided the league itself conforms to Fordham's expectations and to Fordham's standards. Some PL coaches, athletic directors and even presidents, have been quoted as preferring changes in in the league's merit aid structure as well. But none has suggested dispensing with the Academic Index, and none has proposed simply thumbing his/her nose at the league's charter - aside from Fordham.

Despite differences in approach, the the other PL schools seem to be interested in keeping the league together and in maintaining its integrity as a whole as measures to recreate competitive balance are assessed. None has proposed abandoning the league itself for the benefit of one associate member. So it's the actions, I suppose, that cry louder than do the quotations. Fordham's actions have told the rest of the PL to "shove it," unless the whole of the league alters its entire approach to match Fordham's desires.

In this light, I'm not so sure that my remarks here are as baseless and as unwarranted as they have been characterized.

Nor should they abandon the league for one Associate Member.

[Sader87]

If it continues as is...i.e. no scholarships, stringent AI...there won't be PL football in 5 years. Almost no one cares about it now, student and alumni interest is minimal, very few crowds exceed 5,000....it's a doomed league as is.

[DFW HOYA]

If Georgetown is that repellent to the PL blue-bloods, note its membership is renewable by the presidents every three years and continues to be ratified by these same schools.

[Go...gate]

I believe the PL will survive; it may not have the membership it has now but the fundamentals are pretty clear. Among the all-sports members, Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh and American are not going anywhere. Navy will be playing Big East football in 2014 but will stay in the PL otherwise. Army will remain a I-A independent in football and will stay in the PL for all other sports. Assuming the veracity (and I do) of some HC insiders, HC could be a wild card and might leave to upgrade their legacy basketball program (not all that far-fetched given the availability of the Centrum in Worcester - why not the Big East?), with football remaining an "equivalancy" proposition. For all we know, that may keep them in the PL as an Associate FB member. Fordham, regrettably, may be gone because of the scholarship issue - assuming so, I believe they will be in the CAA for football and, IMO, should seek inclusion in the Big East for all other sports. Georgetown? Forgetting their facilities deficiencies, they are becoming more competitive, so my thinking is they will stick as an Associate member, because the Pioneer is not a practical option. So, for FB, the PL still has a core of six. I still believe that if the PL goes to 56.7+ football scholarships, VMI will come aboard as an associate football member and possibly for all sports - the synergies with the other military academies make sense in that regard. If we stay as an "equivalency" football league, I believe that Marist will be added for all sports.

[Sader87]

Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell are all very similar schools philosophically, institutionally and geographically....they should continue to be joined together....Holy Cross, though the driving force of this league (i.e. Fr Brooks SJ) should never have been part of this consortium....it's well past time to cut our ties and admit our mistake in forming/joining this league.

[Go...gate]

87, you have you chance now, thanks to Pitt and 'Cuse. If I'm HC and Fordham, I'm calling the Big East for hoops. Football, though, may be a different matter for your administration. You may end up like Georgetown, as an Associate Member in the PL for that sport.

[Sader87]

The PL schools are fabulous institutions but aside from Colgate we have absolutely no connection (geographically, institutionally, historically etc) to these schools. We would be much better suited in a New England based conference for most sports (American East ?) and in a newly formed "Catholic Big East" in our premiere sport basketball.

[Bogus Megapardus]

87, you have you chance now, thanks to Pitt and 'Cuse. If I'm HC and Fordham, I'm calling the Big East for hoops. Football, though, may be a different matter for your administration. You may end up like Georgetown, as an Associate Member in the PL for that sport.


The PL schools are fabulous institutions but aside from Colgate we have absolutely no connection (geographically, institutionally, historically etc) to these schools. We would be much better suited in a New England based conference for most sports (American East ?) and in a newly formed "Catholic Big East" in our premiere sport basketball.

Agreed. Now's the chance for the Sader87 faction at the College of the Holy Cross to join the Big East, like it shoulda done to begin with. Then Holy Cross can rub shoulders in places to which it has real geographic, institutional and historic ties - places like South Florida, Louisville and Cincinnati. These schools definitely won't mind you dropping that whole Epidemic Windex thing, either, so you can get the students you really want up in Woo.

Have a flippin' ball, '87.

[Doc QB]

Georgetown's president seems to reiterate this every year and no one listens. He is fine with supporting football as is.

Yes, supporting as is...a Division One sport with no athletic department fiancial aid, just good old University funds and a FAFSA form, and operating costs at bargain basement prices. I would argue there is really little support at all. Georgetown deserves better as do the student-athletes.

[Doc QB]

If Georgetown is that repellent to the PL blue-bloods, note its membership is renewable by the presidents every three years and continues to be ratified by these same schools.

Autobid, autobid....

[RichH2]

Agree that the AI is more of an Ivy affectation rather than a necessity so long as all members have essentially the same pool to draw from. If one could take recruits with 900 boards while others were ltd to kids 1200 or better , a competitive mismatch. None of our schools are big enuf to absorb phys.ed. majors to build a program. I would prefer no PL wide AI but am I naive to think that no member would bring in kids that did not meet its own admission standards . Not sure.

[Brad82]

This writer does a good job.
The NEC is an up and coming conference,with more impressive wins each year.

[CFBfan]

This writer does a good job.
The NEC is an up and coming conference,with more impressive wins each year.

what is your ooc record this year? who are the impressive wins against to date (this year) ?

[danefan]

what is your ooc record this year? who are the impressive wins against to date (this year) ?

Down year for the NEC this year, IMO except against the Ivy league.

0-5 vs. Patriot is a bad OOC year in my book.

If Albany plays the rest of the season like we played Saturday, I could see a competitive Round 1 game in the playoffs though.

[Brad82]

Just off the top of my head:
Monmouth over Nova
Sacred Heart over Dartmouth and Columbia

I am a traditionalist,if going to struggle,NEC should not beat these teams.
If simply becoming a better conference,they need to win a few of these games.

They are.

[aceinthehole]

Down year for the NEC this year, IMO except against the Ivy league.

0-5 vs. Patriot is a bad OOC year in my book.

If Albany plays the rest of the season like we played Saturday, I could see a competitive Round 1 game in the playoffs though.

Yep, it is very little disapointing that the NEC is 0-5 vs. the PL this year. I would have expected a us to have a 2-3 record this year. They got the better of us this year for sure.

The NEC is 3-0 vs the Ivy, which is a very nice suprise. The fact that Sacred Heart has 2 of these wins, is a very good sign for the league.

But let's be honest when looking at both the NEC and PL this year - its a very down year for both leagues. The 2 leagues (16 teams) have combined for just 1 FCS win from outside the Ivy/PFL (Lehigh's 3-point win vs. Liberty).

[MplsBison]

The question, I suppose, is whether or not the Patriot League wants to become to football what Georgetown has become to basketball. The lesser-populated PL colleges in particular might not appreciate the same benefit in having a distinct, separately-admitted elite class on their small, residential campuses.

Do you believe it's possible for a small college with high academic standards to admit 85 football players, on athletic scholarship, whose academic abilities do not reflect equally with the rest of their incoming freshman class and there not be any negative impact on the non-football students' academic experience?

Are you certain that there can not be found in the entire country an example showing it is possible to do so?

[danefan]

Yep, it is very little disapointing that the NEC is 0-5 vs. the PL this year. I would have expected a us to have a 2-3 record this year. They got the better of us this year for sure.

The NEC is 3-0 vs the Ivy, which is a very nice suprise. The fact that Sacred Heart has 2 of these wins, is a very good sign for the league.

But let's be honest when looking at both the NEC and PL this year - its a very down year for both leagues. The 2 leagues (16 teams) have combined for just 1 FCS win from outside the Ivy/PFL (Lehigh's 3-point win vs. Liberty).

Well Lehigh is very strong. Stronger than the best of either league will normally be.

[aceinthehole]

Well Lehigh is very strong. Stronger than the best of either league will normally be.

No doubt. Lehigh is by far the best team out of the PL/NEC/Ivy this year. They are having a very good season. And while Lehigh is very strong this year, let's put in perspective that in non-conference games they a 3-pt win vs. currently unranked Liberty and a OT loss to #6 New Hampshire. Sure Lehigh is a top-10 team right now, but even CAA fans would say their league "down" this year as well.

Bottom line, I think most of us would agree that this year the remaining 23 teams from the PL/NEC/Ivy are mediocre at best. That doesn't mean they can't have great games (many of them have), it is just that all of them have a lot of "warts"

[CFBfan]

Yep, it is very little disapointing that the NEC is 0-5 vs. the PL this year. I would have expected a us to have a 2-3 record this year. They got the better of us this year for sure.

The NEC is 3-0 vs the Ivy, which is a very nice suprise. The fact that Sacred Heart has 2 of these wins, is a very good sign for the league.

But let's be honest when looking at both the NEC and PL this year - its a very down year for both leagues. The 2 leagues (16 teams) have combined for just 1 FCS win from outside the Ivy/PFL (Lehigh's 3-point win vs. Liberty).

here is the PL OOC (complimets of Carney):
The Patriot League is 15-14 Year-to-Date vs. OOC:

vs. Big East 0-1
vs. Big South 1-1
vs. CAA 0-5
vs. Ivy 6-6
vs. MVFC 0-1
vs. NEC 5-0
vs. PFL 3-0

What does the NEC look like??

[Bogus Megapardus]

Do you believe it's possible for a small college with high academic standards to admit 85 football players, on athletic scholarship, whose academic abilities do not reflect equally with the rest of their incoming freshman class and there not be any negative impact on the non-football students' academic experience?

Are you certain that there can not be found in the entire country an example showing it is possible to do so?

Not on a campus where the male population is only about 1,000, and men's scholarships would have to be provided in basketball, lacrosse, soccer, hockey, track and swimming as well. When 35% of the male population plays Division I sports, it always affects every student's academic experience.

[MplsBison]

Not on a campus where the male population is only about 1,000, and men's scholarships would have to be provided in basketball, lacrosse, soccer, hockey, track and swimming as well. When 35% of the male population plays Division I sports, it always affects every student's academic experience.

But does it negatively affect it?

Could you propose a hypothetical (or real, from experience) example illustrating how it even might happen.


I don't find it hard to believe -- but I also don't just accept it without doubt.

So please give an example of how a regular student's academic experience would be negatively impacted because 350 of the 1000 male students at school had a 50% lower score on the SAT than the average non-athlete's score.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Well Lehigh is very strong. Stronger than the best of either league will normally be.

Don't forget, Lehigh has been here before. From '98-'05 Lehigh was one of the best programs in the country. No other team in the league faces the type of expectations Lehigh does. Anything less than 7-4 and folks grow very restless. The '07-'09 stretch was perhaps the worst 3 year run in 50 seasons at Lehigh. If the Hawks had gone 5-6 last year or even 6-5 Coen would have gotten fired and Cecchini would have taken over. IMO, the overall expectations have changed. In the early 2000's some folks thought a National Title was realistic. Now, no one believes that's possible without scholarships.

1998 12-1 finished #13/12, lost to National Champ Umass 27-21 in the Quarters, should have finished higher
1999 10-2 finished #14/#13 lost to Hofstra 27-15 in first round
2000 12-1 finished #8/#11 lost to Delaware 47-22 in quarters
2001 11-1 finished #5/#5 lost to runner-up Furman 34-17 in Quarters
2002 8-4 Preseason #2 but got destroyed by injuries
2003 8-3 finished #23/#24 They got Woffed! Lost to two FCS teams that went a combined 25-1 and a 9-3 FBS team.
2004 9-3 finished #15/#14 Lost to eventual champ JMU 14-13 in the first round
2005 8-3 finished NR/#25, suffered 3 crushing losses....

IMO, HC in '09 and Lafayette in '04 and '05 were better than any team the NEC has produced to this point. Plus, there's Colgate in '03 and Fordham in '02.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't forget, Lehigh has been here before. From '98-'05 Lehigh was one of the best programs in the country. No other team in the league faces the type of expectations Lehigh does. Anything less than 7-4 and folks grow very restless. The '07-'09 stretch was perhaps the worst 3 years run in 50 years at Lehigh. If the Hawks had gone 5-6 last year or even 6-5 Coen would have gotten fired and Cecchini would have taken over. IMO, the overall expectations have changed. In the early 2000's some folks thought a National Title was realistic. Now, no one believes that's possible without scholarships.

1998 12-1 finished #13/12, lost to National Champ Umass 27-21 in the Quarters, should have finished higher
1999 10-2 finished #14/#13 lost to Hofstra 27-15 in first round
2000 12-1 finished #8/#11 lost to Delaware 47-22 in quarters
2001 11-1 finished #5/#5
2002 8-4 Preseason #2 but got destroyed by injuries
2003 8-3 finished #23/#24 They got Woffed! Lost to two FCS teams that went a combined 25-1 and a 9-3 FBS team.
2004 9-3 finished #15/#14 Lost to eventual champ JMU 14-13 in the first round
2005 8-3 finished NR/#25, suffered 3 crushing losses....

IMO, HC in '09 and Lafayette in '04 and '05 were better than any team the NEC has produced to this point. Plus, there's Colgate in '03 and Fordham in '02.

2000 was the year Lehigh went to Western Illinois and pounded them, 37-7. It wasn't even close.

2001 Lehigh got that home playoff game, won with Luke Cianello coming in for an injured Brant Hall at QB, and then lost at Furman the following week. (Also, their top WR, Josh Snyder, went out in the same game, wrecking the trip down south.

[ngineer]

Don't forget, Lehigh has been here before. From '98-'05 Lehigh was one of the best programs in the country. No other team in the league faces the type of expectations Lehigh does. Anything less than 7-4 and folks grow very restless. The '07-'09 stretch was perhaps the worst 3 year run in 50 seasons at Lehigh. If the Hawks had gone 5-6 last year or even 6-5 Coen would have gotten fired and Cecchini would have taken over. IMO, the overall expectations have changed. In the early 2000's some folks thought a National Title was realistic. Now, no one believes that's possible without scholarships.

1998 12-1 finished #13/12, lost to National Champ Umass 27-21 in the Quarters, should have finished higher
1999 10-2 finished #14/#13 lost to Hofstra 27-15 in first round
2000 12-1 finished #8/#11 lost to Delaware 47-22 in quarters
2001 11-1 finished #5/#5 lost to runner-up Furman 34-17 in Quarters
2002 8-4 Preseason #2 but got destroyed by injuries
2003 8-3 finished #23/#24 They got Woffed! Lost to two FCS teams that went a combined 25-1 and a 9-3 FBS team.
2004 9-3 finished #15/#14 Lost to eventual champ JMU 14-13 in the first round
2005 8-3 finished NR/#25, suffered 3 crushing losses....

IMO, HC in '09 and Lafayette in '04 and '05 were better than any team the NEC has produced to this point. Plus, there's Colgate in '03 and Fordham in '02.

Close, but the Lehigh teams from 1963-1968 won a TOTAL of 7 games in six seasons! Also, from 1984 through 1987 Lehigh had 4 straight non-winning seasons and then, again, from 1994-1997 we had one winning season in 1995. So the three year run from '07-'09 was dismal but not unique. All programs go through cycles. At least when Lehigh has had some 'down' periods they haven't been a ghastly as the mid-1960's when the Engineers were unquestionably the worst football program in America. I've been around the program for 40+ years, and our overall success, given the obstacles in recruiting we face, has been admirable.

[alvinkayak6]

The Patriot League has a plan but it has handcuffed by being a group of academic schools-first. You can't be the Ivy League Part 2 unless you get a stronger commitment and more members to play in all sports.

[Go...gate]

Close, but the Lehigh teams from 1963-1968 won a TOTAL of 7 games in six seasons! Also, from 1984 through 1987 Lehigh had 4 straight non-winning seasons and then, again, from 1994-1997 we had one winning season in 1995. So the three year run from '07-'09 was dismal but not unique. All programs go through cycles. At least when Lehigh has had some 'down' periods they haven't been a ghastly as the mid-1960's when the Engineers were unquestionably the worst football program in America. I've been around the program for 40+ years, and our overall success, given the obstacles in recruiting we face, has been admirable.

Colgate has had its ups and downs as well. Thank God Fred Dunlap was able to help out at both LU and CU!

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Patriot League has a plan but it has handcuffed by being a group of academic schools-first. You can't be the Ivy League Part 2 unless you get a stronger commitment and more members to play in all sports.

Curious. The PL has 8 all-sport members playing 23 Division I sports - second only to Ivy in the number and breadth of sports offered. The league has a greater percentage of its students participating in Division I athletics than any other, by a considerable margin. Just where is the "commitment" lacking?

[MplsBison]

But does it negatively affect it?

Could you propose a hypothetical (or real, from experience) example illustrating how it even might happen.


I don't find it hard to believe -- but I also don't just accept it without doubt.

So please give an example of how a regular student's academic experience would be negatively impacted because 350 of the 1000 male students at school had a 50% lower score on the SAT than the average non-athlete's score.

I'm going to assume you can't think of no such scenario. Neither can I.

Indeed, if athletes can get into Lehigh and take only the easiest classes offered - doesn't that free up academic resources for those students who do want to commit their full effort into studying? If anything, it should be a positive impact for those non-athlete students.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Close, but the Lehigh teams from 1963-1968 won a TOTAL of 7 games in six seasons! Also, from 1984 through 1987 Lehigh had 4 straight non-winning seasons and then, again, from 1994-1997 we had one winning season in 1995. So the three year run from '07-'09 was dismal but not unique. All programs go through cycles. At least when Lehigh has had some 'down' periods they haven't been a ghastly as the mid-1960's when the Engineers were unquestionably the worst football program in America. I've been around the program for 40+ years, and our overall success, given the obstacles in recruiting we face, has been admirable.

Whatever the future of FCS football and northeast conference affiliation holds, I would love for it to include more games between UD and Lehigh. The UD-Lehigh rivalry was one of the great ones, and even if it was second fiddle to the Lafayette rivalry on the Lehigh side, it had the attention of Hen fans. 'Nova seems to have our attention now, with JMU waiting in the wings if 'Nova should go FBS, but there was something special about those Lehigh games, intense, even antagonistic, but never truly mean-spirited.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm going to assume you can't think of no such scenario. Neither can I.

Indeed, if athletes can get into Lehigh and take only the easiest classes offered - doesn't that free up academic resources for those students who do want to commit their full effort into studying? If anything, it should be a positive impact for those non-athlete students.

1. Don't assume. Never confuse silence with acquiescence; you'll appear more foolish than you already do.

2. There are no easy classes at Lehigh, nor any classes designed just for athletes. Nor are there any students who do not put their "full effort into studying."

3. I'll answer your original question with another - why not simply eliminate entrance requirements for everyone, and offer lots of programs such as Urban Park Management and Retail Service Initiatives for those who would like to take them? From your point of view, that wouldn't affect the learning experience of "regular" students either, would it?

4. Did you know that there are some colleges where students discuss particle physics and 19th century Balkan politics in the evening in their residential groups? And that the odds are that one out of every three participants in those discussions is a Division I athlete? I don't think you would like it there, MplsBison.

[Go...gate]

Whatever the future of FCS football and northeast conference affiliation holds, I would love for it to include more games between UD and Lehigh. The UD-Lehigh rivalry was one of the great ones, and even if it was second fiddle to the Lafayette rivalry on the Lehigh side, it had the attention of Hen fans. 'Nova seems to have our attention now, with JMU waiting in the wings if 'Nova should go FBS, but there was something special about those Lehigh games, intense, even antagonistic, but never truly mean-spirited.

Amen. We are all losing too many traditional opponents - sometimes to divisional change, sometimes for less obvious reasons. At Colgate, it is understandable that we no longer play many FBS schools, but we have also lost opponents such as Brown, whom we played every year on Thanksgiving for decades, and which is one of our most-played rivalries. Our AD seems not to care.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is typical - the PL folks have muscled out the NEC folks on a thread that ostensibly includes them. xlolx

[Go...gate]

This is typical - the PL folks have muscled out the NEC folks on a thread that ostensibly includes them. xlolx

I think you're correct, LFN.... ; )

But, to be sure, we like the NEC guys. We're all trying to make FCS work for us....

[aceinthehole]

This is typical - the PL folks have muscled out the NEC folks on a thread that ostensibly includes them. xlolx

I think what the article (and thread) reinforces that the 2 leagues are 'linked' a lot closer than either group of fans are truly comfortable with :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think what the article (and thread) reinforces that the 2 leagues are 'linked' a lot closer than either group of fans are truly comfortable with :)

+1. And if the waters shift in the world of FCS football, I think that link could end up being even closer.

[RichH2]

+1. And if the waters shift in the world of FCS football, I think that link could end up being even closer.

Friends of necessity if not another giant conference. NEC in a somewhat down yr but league appears strong and focused expect them to become a stable segment of NE football. More than can be said for PL at present. Hopefullt Presidents will fish or cut bait, so we have a direction.

[DetroitFlyer]

Interesting that nobody can be happy with their state in life.... The NEC, PL, PFL and IL make up a significant percentage of the overall FCS membership. Still, because each is not a 63 athletic scholarship granting conference, fans here seem to think they are inferior and non-competitive.... When you look at the remaining conferences, they "only" grant 63 athletic scholarships so their fans feel they are inferior to FBS teams that grant 85 athletic scholarships. Indeed, many of these schools yearn for the day when they can join the ranks of the FBS and be a "real" Division I team.... FCS is never going to get anywhere on the National stage until the collective inferiority complex is resolved on all levels. Instead of celebrating the unique collection of institutions within the sub-division, rules are established to separate the division, (FBS counter rule, PFL exclusion from the playoffs). FCS exists to limit the expense of playing Division I football. If there were ever a mission statement written down for the sub-division, cost containment would sum it up quite nicely. It is far past time that fans of this brand of college football work to level the rules for ALL teams in the sub-division, and quit worrying about the funding model employed for any individual team or conference. The results on the field will ultimately determine what works for any individual team or conference. Frankly, I have never seen so much whining and complaining about funding models used in a sub-division. You do not see this at all in Division II, Division III or the NAIA. Teams and conferences fund the way they wish within the rules. Not everybody does it exactly the same way.... As the end of the day, the results on the field validate the path chosen. It just is not that complicated.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You do not see this at all in Division II, Division III or the NAIA. Teams and conferences fund the way they wish within the rules. Not everybody does it exactly the same way.... As the end of the day, the results on the field validate the path chosen. It just is not that complicated.

The PL always has had a fallback - we can join hands once again with Big Ivy and take the NESCAC approach. Our football programs would hardly notice the difference, while the all the ESPN-fueled deceit and skullduggery swirls around us. Our conferences would emerge intact and unchanged, and no worse off for the wear.

This is the benefit of taking a measured approach from a solid footing - particularly when you do not view yourself, in general, as either inferior or non-competitive. And hardly without a plan, either - the planning just might be better, and far more prescient, than some believe it to be.

[RichH2]

The PL always has had a fallback - we can join hands once again with Big Ivy and take the NESCAC approach. Our football programs would hardly notice the difference, while the all the ESPN-fueled deceit and skullduggery swirls around us. Our conferences would emerge intact and unchanged, and no worse off for the wear.

This is the benefit of taking a measured approach from a solid footing - particularly when you do not view yourself, in general, as either inferior or non-competitive. And hardly without a plan, either - the planning just might be better, and far more prescient, than some believe it to be.
Waiting out the storm a valid choice for the present , but the storm will abate. I agree for the most part with your view of the PL. The choice remains where are we going? I prefer merit aid, but a decision one way or the other must be made and sooner rather than later If yes or no, decide, and let the various members then decide what they will do

[Doc QB]

FCS exists to limit the expense of playing Division I football. If there were ever a mission statement written down for the sub-division, cost containment would sum it up quite nicely. It is far past time that fans of this brand of college football work to level the rules for ALL teams in the sub-division, and quit worrying about the funding model employed for any individual team or conference.

Agree with most of your post, but relying on a unifying theme of embracing "cost-containment" football has really lost relevance today. The only thing regulated at this point, to my knowledge (big ticket items at least) are scholarship numbers, paid full time coaches and number of restricted earnings coaches, recuit visits to campus and number of paid trips, away game travel rosters. So, there is a terrible amount of program related offerings that are not really sanctioned in anyway, and it is those aspects that some schools have lit up the skies with the facilities "arms race." Look at the schools with mega stadium expansions, football only facilities, uniforms and other threads, weightrooms, etc. All essentially unregulated, and it shows in some of those programs' successes recruiting, against FBS and higher caliber FCS foes, and for some, wins and losses.

True cost containment, is really a thing of the past and the reason FCS is as divergent as some of the FBS programs. Think Sacred Heart/JMU, Ball State/Alabama.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting that nobody can be happy with their state in life.... The NEC, PL, PFL and IL make up a significant percentage of the overall FCS membership. Still, because each is not a 63 athletic scholarship granting conference, fans here seem to think they are inferior and non-competitive.... When you look at the remaining conferences, they "only" grant 63 athletic scholarships so their fans feel they are inferior to FBS teams that grant 85 athletic scholarships. Indeed, many of these schools yearn for the day when they can join the ranks of the FBS and be a "real" Division I team.... FCS is never going to get anywhere on the National stage until the collective inferiority complex is resolved on all levels. Instead of celebrating the unique collection of institutions within the sub-division, rules are established to separate the division, (FBS counter rule, PFL exclusion from the playoffs). FCS exists to limit the expense of playing Division I football. If there were ever a mission statement written down for the sub-division, cost containment would sum it up quite nicely. It is far past time that fans of this brand of college football work to level the rules for ALL teams in the sub-division, and quit worrying about the funding model employed for any individual team or conference. The results on the field will ultimately determine what works for any individual team or conference. Frankly, I have never seen so much whining and complaining about funding models used in a sub-division. You do not see this at all in Division II, Division III or the NAIA. Teams and conferences fund the way they wish within the rules. Not everybody does it exactly the same way.... As the end of the day, the results on the field validate the path chosen. It just is not that complicated.

You bring up some good points, but the crux of the problem is: what is a football scholarship?

Is it any football player that gets any sort of aid to come to school? If so, every FCS program is a "scholarship program", and the Ivies would have the most scholarships of any schools in the subdivision - since their "aid policy" scholarships the entire student body, including athletes.

Or is it scholarship money for football players that get aid for the expressed reason of playing football?

This definition matters, because baked into the NCAA definitions for the divisions and subdivisions are scholarship limits - 85 full scholarships for FBS, 63 equivalencies for FCS schools, 0 for Division III, etc. And also for competitive opportunities - in order for a FBS win over an FCS school to "count" as a bowl win, the FCS schools need to offer at least 57 equivalencies by the second definition.

Since the NCAA has decided to make "football scholarships" the dividing line for football participation (and, as a practical matter, fun and lucrative FBS games), it's not a matter of an FCS inferiority complex - it's an issue with the NCAA, and their definitions. If the NCAA creates a real definition on what the aid offered to athletes actually is, and stopped making a narrow definition of "scholarships" as "counters", there wouldn't be any "inferiority complex", and you'd probably lose the justification of denying the PFL an autobid, too.

[mainejeff]

Fordham and Georgetown are really the outliers in the PL right now. Fordham seems to want a full 63 scholarship competitive program, and the actions of Georgetown's administration make it seem as if they don't really care if they continue to support football or not.

I wonder what will become of Maine and UNH. I hope that they will continue to compete in the CAA. I don't see either one wanting to drop down to a less competitive league, especially UNH which usually does very well in CAA play. The only possible motivation for either to leave would be to save on travel costs. Another problem is that Maine and UNH are both only CAA-Football affiliate members, they play other sports under the America East banner.

The best solution, IMO, would be for the CAA to court Albany, Stony Brook, and Fordham all as full CAA all-sports members, break into North/South divisions again, and in return have UNH and Maine join the CAA as full all-sports members with the divisional schedule and lower travel costs. For football it could look like this (assuming 'Nova goes to the Big East and removing UMass and URI who are on the way out):

CAA North: UNH, Maine, Stony Brook, Albany, Fordham, Delaware

CAA South: Towson, JMU, W&M, ODU, Richmond, GA State

You have a nice 5 game round-robin for each team in each division, plus three from the other division alternating each year, and three games for each school to schedule on their own.

That would also leave Richmond as the last affiliate member, and if the Big East ends up taking Temple back, along with perhaps UMass and a couple basketball only A-10 schools, Richmond might find the CAA a more comfortable conference for all-sports membership.

I like.

It's too bad that Maine's geography works against its inclusion to other conferences so much. The athletic program at Maine is pretty broad based considering its resources (private funding has really been the key cog in remaining competitive over the past decade). I think that Maine would be an excellent choice for all-sports membership in the CAA. Yes, hoops would need to step up funding.......but you have competitive baseball, softball, and field hockey programs to go along with football.

[danefan]

Fordham and Georgetown are really the outliers in the PL right now. Fordham seems to want a full 63 scholarship competitive program, and the actions of Georgetown's administration make it seem as if they don't really care if they continue to support football or not.

I wonder what will become of Maine and UNH. I hope that they will continue to compete in the CAA. I don't see either one wanting to drop down to a less competitive league, especially UNH which usually does very well in CAA play. The only possible motivation for either to leave would be to save on travel costs. Another problem is that Maine and UNH are both only CAA-Football affiliate members, they play other sports under the America East banner.

The best solution, IMO, would be for the CAA to court Albany, Stony Brook, and Fordham all as full CAA all-sports members, break into North/South divisions again, and in return have UNH and Maine join the CAA as full all-sports members with the divisional schedule and lower travel costs. For football it could look like this (assuming 'Nova goes to the Big East and removing UMass and URI who are on the way out):

CAA North: UNH, Maine, Stony Brook, Albany, Fordham, Delaware

CAA South: Towson, JMU, W&M, ODU, Richmond, GA State

You have a nice 5 game round-robin for each team in each division, plus three from the other division alternating each year, and three games for each school to schedule on their own.

That would also leave Richmond as the last affiliate member, and if the Big East ends up taking Temple back, along with perhaps UMass and a couple basketball only A-10 schools, Richmond might find the CAA a more comfortable conference for all-sports membership.

From your lips to Yeager's s ears.

I think the only way the CAA Football conference expands is by the addition of all-sports members. No other way it happens.

[Ken_Z]

so much nonsense in two pages is amazing

i would like to begin with an apology to all the readers for my initial churlish comment on this thread. i know this had to come as a shock to all of you who have come to know me as a poster with a kind word for everyone; someone who sees the glass three-quarters full rather than half empty; a cockeyed optimist who believes that Democrats and Republicans will work together for the good of the country; ...

anyhow, one of the primary functions and joys of a sports message board is to speculate on the future, and i should not begrudge others participating in this fun no matter how baseless and misguided their speculations may be. i will now join in and engage in these activities and provide my insights into the future of the PL based on likelihoods of outcomes:

100% likelihood:
- Bucknell will not join the Big East for football or basketball (neither will Holy Cross or Fordham)

90%+ likelihood:
- the five core PL schools (Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, and Lehigh) will all remain in the PL for all sports

70% Likelihood:
- the PL will approve football scholarships
- Fordham will remain in the PL for football (high correlation w/ scholarship decision)
- Georgetown will remain in the PL for football (inverse correlation w/ scholarship decision)
- the PL will be succesful in finding expansion candidates

60% likelihood
- expansion will be to the South (maybe plus a hoops only addition in New England to appease HC)
- No current NEC team will be in a league with current PL schools and vice versa

oh, and one more 100%er: a majority of HC and Fordham fans will not be happy with their league affiliation; their athletic administration and their general administration. also, regardless of what league(s) they participate in, they will blame their joining the PL (whether a current member or 20+ years ago) for their athletic failures.

[Bogus Megapardus]

maybe plus a hoops only addition in New England to appease HC

Hoops-only member, or non-football school with membership in all other sports (i.e., Providence, Boston U., Binghamton, Vermont)?

[mainejeff]

From your lips to Yeager's s ears.

I think the only way the CAA Football conference expands is by the addition of all-sports members. No other way it happens.

There's really 3 separate groups in the CAA, all with competing agendas......

Basketball first:

Northeastern
Hofstra
Drexel
GMU
VCU
UNCW

FCS Football centric:

Delaware
Towson
W&M

FBS Football centric

JMU
ODU
Georgia State

On the surface, it would seem to be an even split between basketball and football interests........but in reality, we have the FCS/FBS interests splitting 3/3 (IMO).......and then even with hoops, you have some geography/conference aspiration issues. Northeastern, Hofstra, and Drexel are on a different page in regard to the A-10 compared to GMU and VCU......and then UNCW is on an island.

I think that the future of the CAA lies with FCS football playing all-sports members........in the New England to Virginia region you have:

Maine
UNH
URI
Bryant
Central Connecticut
Albany
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
Monmouth
Lehigh
Lafayette
Delaware
Towson
Richmond
William & Mary

Now, you can get hung up on hoops aspirations and academic comparisons when comparing those schools.......but you can't tell me that 10 or 12 from that group don't have similar athletic programs, academic standards, and a relatively tight geography........SOMETHING could be done with the strongest candidates from that group and make a very nice all-sports configuration.

[RichH2]

There's really 3 separate groups in the CAA, all with competing agendas......

Basketball first:

Northeastern
Hofstra
Drexel
GMU
VCU
UNCW

FCS Football centric:

Delaware
Towson
W&M

FBS Football centric

JMU
ODU
Georgia State

On the surface, it would seem to be an even split between basketball and football interests........but in reality, we have the FCS/FBS interests splitting 3/3 (IMO).......and then even with hoops, you have some geography/conference aspiration issues. Northeastern, Hofstra, and Drexel are on a different page in regard to the A-10 compared to GMU and VCU......and then UNCW is on an island.

I think that the future of the CAA lies with FCS football playing all-sports members........in the New England to Virginia region you have:

Maine
UNH
URI
Bryant
Central Connecticut
Albany
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
Monmouth
Lehigh
Lafayette
Delaware
Towson
Richmond
William & Mary

Now, you can get hung up on hoops aspirations and academic comparisons when comparing those schools.......but you can't tell me that 10 or 12 from that group don't have similar athletic programs, academic standards, and a relatively tight geography........SOMETHING could be done with the strongest candidates from that group and make a very nice all-sports configuration.

Dont know whether its possible given PL stance on AI but I think it is a good start . It certainly would be fun.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Have to add Bucknell and Holy Cross to that list - two of the better basketball schools amongst that group.

[mainejeff]

Have to add Bucknell and Holy Cross to that list - two of the better basketball schools amongst that group.

Aren't they against the growth of athletic scholarships?

[RichH2]

Not in Bball and Bucknell is on the fence for football. Cross no one knows what they will do in football

[Go...gate]

Interesting that nobody can be happy with their state in life.... The NEC, PL, PFL and IL make up a significant percentage of the overall FCS membership. Still, because each is not a 63 athletic scholarship granting conference, fans here seem to think they are inferior and non-competitive.... When you look at the remaining conferences, they "only" grant 63 athletic scholarships so their fans feel they are inferior to FBS teams that grant 85 athletic scholarships. Indeed, many of these schools yearn for the day when they can join the ranks of the FBS and be a "real" Division I team.... FCS is never going to get anywhere on the National stage until the collective inferiority complex is resolved on all levels. Instead of celebrating the unique collection of institutions within the sub-division, rules are established to separate the division, (FBS counter rule, PFL exclusion from the playoffs). FCS exists to limit the expense of playing Division I football. If there were ever a mission statement written down for the sub-division, cost containment would sum it up quite nicely. It is far past time that fans of this brand of college football work to level the rules for ALL teams in the sub-division, and quit worrying about the funding model employed for any individual team or conference. The results on the field will ultimately determine what works for any individual team or conference. Frankly, I have never seen so much whining and complaining about funding models used in a sub-division. You do not see this at all in Division II, Division III or the NAIA. Teams and conferences fund the way they wish within the rules. Not everybody does it exactly the same way.... As the end of the day, the results on the field validate the path chosen. It just is not that complicated.

Very good post!

[Ken_Z]

Hoops-only member, or non-football school with membership in all other sports (i.e., Providence, Boston U., Binghamton, Vermont)?

opps, should be non-football, e.g. Fairfield or Vermont

[dgreco]

Maine
UNH
URI
Bryant
Central Connecticut
Albany
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
Monmouth
Lehigh
Lafayette
Delaware
Towson
Richmond
William & Mary

Now, you can get hung up on hoops aspirations and academic comparisons when comparing those schools.......but you can't tell me that 10 or 12 from that group don't have similar athletic programs, academic standards, and a relatively tight geography........SOMETHING could be done with the strongest candidates from that group and make a very nice all-sports configuration.

If I were to play the lets make conferences game...

UNH
Maine
URI
CCSU
Albany
Stony Brook

Fordham
Colgate
Lehigh
Lafayette
Monmouth
---------------
Holy Cross, Bucknell or Bryant.

6 public, 6 private and a very tight footprint. I think HC if approached would be the first choice with bucknell second because of its PL ties.

It would then allow for a 9 team conference

Dayton
RMU
St. Francis
Wagner
Marist
Sacred Heart
Bryant and/or Bucknell or/and Holy Cross
Georgetown

However, none of this is likely to happen, but it would be interesting to see the Northeast region reorganize. I do think the NEC is one of the most stable DI conferences though. Really CCSU is the only school I can see moving and thats to AEast or some sort of new conference with the usual suspects.

[alvinkayak6]

The Pioneer League is probably the most stable, since a number of new programs are starting and find the PFL to be a great home. I believe Detroit & Mercyhurst are considering D-I FCS. Hosuton Baptist too

[Go...gate]

I would throw the Pioneer in as well, except it is not an all-sports league. However, as a football loop it is definitely stable and getting much stronger.

[UAalum72]

The Pioneer League is probably the most stable, since a number of new programs are starting and find the PFL to be a great home. I believe Detroit & Mercyhurst are considering D-I FCS. Hosuton Baptist too
D-II Mercyhurst in Erie, PA? or do you mean University of Detroit Mercy?

[bison137]

i would like to begin with an apology to all the readers for my initial churlish comment on this thread. i know this had to come as a shock to all of you who have come to know me as a poster with a kind word for everyone; someone who sees the glass three-quarters full rather than half empty; a cockeyed optimist who believes that Democrats and Republicans will work together for the good of the country; ...

anyhow, one of the primary functions and joys of a sports message board is to speculate on the future, and i should not begrudge others participating in this fun no matter how baseless and misguided their speculations may be. i will now join in and engage in these activities and provide my insights into the future of the PL based on likelihoods of outcomes:

100% likelihood:
- Bucknell will not join the Big East for football or basketball (neither will Holy Cross or Fordham)

90%+ likelihood:
- the five core PL schools (Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, and Lehigh) will all remain in the PL for all sports

70% Likelihood:
- the PL will approve football scholarships
- Fordham will remain in the PL for football (high correlation w/ scholarship decision)
- Georgetown will remain in the PL for football (inverse correlation w/ scholarship decision)
- the PL will be succesful in finding expansion candidates

60% likelihood
- expansion will be to the South (maybe plus a hoops only addition in New England to appease HC)
- No current NEC team will be in a league with current PL schools and vice versa

oh, and one more 100%er: a majority of HC and Fordham fans will not be happy with their league affiliation; their athletic administration and their general administration. also, regardless of what league(s) they participate in, they will blame their joining the PL (whether a current member or 20+ years ago) for their athletic failures.


I'd basically agree with your odds, except for the 100%. I've found that a majority of HC fans - especially those who graduated in the past 20 years - seem to be happy with the PL affiliation. It's only some of the 1% who post on message boards who aren't.

Also, I think the odds of football scholarships being approved are higher then 70% - assuming there is no endowment meltdown. If HC would support them, the odds of approval (by at least a 5-2 vote) would be 100%.

[danefan]

NEC and PL alliance perhaps?

Like the new MWC/CUSA alliance?

http://es.pn/nXyZt2

[Go...gate]

A few years ago, I would not have seen it in the cards. But now, I think even without such an alliance, you will see a great many games between the NEC, PL, Ivy and Pioneer. This is especially the case if the NCAA monkeys around with FB scholarships the way it has been discussed on another thread.

[Bogus Megapardus]

you will see a great many games between the NEC, PL, Ivy and Pioneer.

Isn't that already the case? Too much worry. We'll be fine.

[ngineer]

D-II Mercyhurst in Erie, PA? or do you mean University of Detroit Mercy?

Yes, Detroit has a brand new stadium, currently being used for lacrosse. Not sure if they have a soccer team, but the stadium is easily adaptable to football. They were major college football through the 50's and then by 1964, as with many inner city schools, interest and success evaporated and the sport was dropped and the stadium torn down. I would like to see the Titans make a comeback.

I coached the women's intercollegiate flag football team for, then U of Detroit, from 1974-76 while getting my graduate degree. An 'interesting' three years. Detroit, where a bullet was considered a natural cause of death, and Dick Vitale was the HC of the basketball team.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NEC and PL alliance perhaps?

Like the new MWC/CUSA alliance?

http://es.pn/nXyZt2

An aside: This. Is. The. Dumbest. Idea. Ever.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross will drop football before we schedule a steady diet of NEC and Pioneer schools....

[Go...gate]

An aside: This. Is. The. Dumbest. Idea. Ever.

You mean C-USA and MWC? Agreed.

BTW, just saw a report on ESPN which indicates that USNA and AFA might not be going Big East after all - at least that they are "hesitant".

[aceinthehole]

Holy Cross will drop football before we schedule a steady diet of NEC and Pioneer schools....

Sorry Sader, they already are scheduling NEC schools!

Sacred Heart, CCSU, Wagner :)

[aceinthehole]

+1. And if the waters shift in the world of FCS football, I think that link could end up being even closer.

And by looking at the upcoming MBB schedules, it seems the PL and NEC may be more closely linked than most people would have guessed.


The eight Patriot League teams will also once again play their fair share of games against opponents from regional conferences. League squads have 26 games scheduled versus teams from the Northeast Conference, 18 against the Ivy League and 11 with the America East Conference. There are also eight games versus Atlantic 10 Conference opponents and seven with the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference (MAAC).

The Patriot League will play at least one team from 22 of the other 31 Division I conferences.

More than one Patriot League team will face off with 24 non-League foes, including two matchups against NCAA Tournament squads Syracuse, Vanderbilt, Richmond and Princeton. Five Patriot League teams will play St. Francis (Pa.), while four face Quinnipiac, Columbia and Dartmouth and three take on La Salle, St. Francis (NY), Cornell, Binghamton, Maryland-Eastern Shore, Marist and NJIT.
http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/101311aaa.html

[Sader87]

Sorry Sader, they already are scheduling NEC schools!

Sacred Heart, CCSU, Wagner :)

By a "steady diet" of NEC/Pioneer schools I meant maybe 3-5 a year...not one or maybe 2 a year.

I stand by my statement though....we'd ultimately drop football after too many of those type of seasons (3-5 NEC/Pioneer schools per year)...we barely draw now with exclusively CAA, Ivy and Patriot schools on our schedule this year.

[DFW HOYA]

I stand by my statement though....we'd ultimately drop football after too many of those type of seasons (3-5 NEC/Pioneer schools per year)...we barely draw now with exclusively CAA, Ivy and Patriot schools on our schedule this year.

If the PL fritters apart, HC may have no choice but to play more NEC schools and drop in a Marist or a Davidson for a filler game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The NEC is rapidly becoming the one-stop shop for home games for FCS football teams in the Northeast.

CAA: The majority of northern schools are disappearing (Hofstra, Northeastern), or are thinking or doing FBS football (UMass, Villanova). And Delaware "doesn't do home-and-home series".

Ivy: These schools, without a postseason to play for, schedule 2-for-1 and 3-for-1 deals, and expect the royal treatment on games - final say on game times (Lafayette), or even location (Lehigh).

That leaves Stony Brook, Marist, Delaware State, and NEC schools for many, many home-and-homes. And when they get Rhode Island, their presence in the Northeast will be bigger than the Ivy League.

I bring this up because folks are talking as if there is actually a choice about scheduling NEC schools. There really isn't, unless you like flying to Virginia or the Carolinas.

[dgtw]

You mean C-USA and MWC? Agreed.

BTW, just saw a report on ESPN which indicates that USNA and AFA might not be going Big East after all - at least that they are "hesitant".

The MWC was founded because its members thought the 16 member WAC was too big, so now they want to form a 22 team league?

[danefan]

The NEC is rapidly becoming the one-stop shop for home games for FCS football teams in the Northeast.

CAA: The majority of northern schools are disappearing (Hofstra, Northeastern), or are thinking or doing FBS football (UMass, Villanova). And Delaware "doesn't do home-and-home series".

Ivy: These schools, without a postseason to play for, schedule 2-for-1 and 3-for-1 deals, and expect the royal treatment on games - final say on game times (Lafayette), or even location (Lehigh).

That leaves Stony Brook, Marist, Delaware State, and NEC schools for many, many home-and-homes. And when they get Rhode Island, their presence in the Northeast will be bigger than the Ivy League.

I bring this up because folks are talking as if there is actually a choice about scheduling NEC schools. There really isn't, unless you like flying to Virginia or the Carolinas.

You guys can always go play the NESCAC schools.

So yes I agree. There is no choice.

[DetroitFlyer]

Holy Cross will drop football before we schedule a steady diet of NEC and Pioneer schools....

Dayton and Holy Cross could be nice rivals in football. It would help HC recruiting to get out of the NE once in a while. HC likes to recruit in Ohio, (remember the receiver who just transferred to UD from HC this past year, (Ross))? I would like to see HC on future UD schedules. It is nice playing Robert Morris and Duquesne, but a little variety would be nice. Unless HC is chicken...!

[crusader11]

Dayton and Holy Cross could be nice rivals in football. It would help HC recruiting to get out of the NE once in a while. HC likes to recruit in Ohio, (remember the receiver who just transferred to UD from HC this past year, (Ross))? I would like to see HC on future UD schedules. It is nice playing Robert Morris and Duquesne, but a little variety would be nice. Unless HC is chicken...!

Holy Cross' best players come from Ohio. We don't need a game against Dayton to tap into this recruiting area.