Playoff NON-participants and poll rankings

[gasoutherneagle]

An interesting debate on the poll thread reminded me of a great thread back in the AGS early days. It made me wonder what folks on the boards would say now. Now... like now that there are over 1000 members. xlolx

When the idea of the AGS fan poll first came to fruition a BIG debate raged (and I think got moved to "smack") about the inclusion of Ivies and HBCUs who choose not to participate in the playoffs. Since the rankings go a long way toward determining playoff participants, what are your views on the subject. xeyebrowx

[BlueHenSinfonian]

The Ivies have some games scheduled against some solid PL, NEC, and CAA teams this year, and if they do well, I wouldn't have a problem including them in the poll.

As far as HBCUs go, it's really just the SWAC that has the problem, as the MEAC participates in the playoffs. So far the SWAC hasn't shown anything worthy of inclusion in the rankings in their OOC play, and looking at the composite schedule I don't see much of a chance for that to change as they limit themselves to each other and some sub-DI teams for the rest of the year mostly. If Southern destroys FAMU, FAMU regains control of their season and becomes a MEAC championship contender, and Southern sweeps the rest of the SWAC schedule, they maybe Southern has a chance at a ranking. I think Tenn State is technically also a HBCU, and they have some chances to earn some recognition if they put up a good showing against Air Force, Jax State, and EKU.

I'm not opposed to ranking non-playoff teams, but a lot of non-playoff teams also have schedules that make them hard to judge. If a team proves themselves I'll throw them into my ranking whether they have the opportunity to go into the postseason or not.

[Pard4Life]

The Ivies recruit high quality players and have very competitive teams. If the league was not so insular and others on here, especially the top conference fans, saw them play on TV, you would see them ranked in the polls. Take 2004 Harvard for instance... their QB was Ryan Fitzpatrick, RB Clifford Dawson, a Northwestern recruit and just dominant, and some other top FCS offensive and defensive talent. Their current QB Winters even bested Luck and Kellen Moore in a passing competition. Yale's staring QB came from Nebraska and had offers from Oklahoma, Wisconsin, and South Carolina.

The Ivies are on a much higher level than the SWAC teams in general.

Poll voters will have to keep an eye on Yale, Harvard, Penn, Dartmouth and Brown this year.

[OL FU]

I think they should be included.

The biggest problem with the Ivies historically for most voters I think is their past scheduling (with a few exceptions) was limited to Patriot League opponents. Nothing wrong with that but it is difficult to compare conferences accross the country in this division. Typically the comparison is made during the playoffs, but the Ivies don't participate so you are still stuck with the question of how do you make the comparison.
The SWAC pretty much plays the SWAC, and MEAC team and another HBCU lower division school (I said typically). Once again, there are no good comparables.

[Milktruck74]

I go back and forth...Is the poll a ranking of the best teams for the last week, or is it a guess at who makes the playoffs? I have a hard time NOT including a worthy team, just because they will not go to the playoffs. The Kids deserve to be included if they are better then the others.

[wmmii]

Include them if you think they ar a Top 25! The poll is not a playoff poll but Top 25!

[TexasTerror]

I agree with wmmii...

If they are worthy enough, rank them. If not, do not rank them. I think we have a pretty good group on here that realizes whether or not a particular institution is qualified for the ranking.

[darell1976]

So besides the Ivy's, North Dakota and South Dakota who else is not eligible for playoffs?

[danefan]

So besides the Ivy's, North Dakota and South Dakota who else is not eligible for playoffs?

SWAC is technically eligible but effectively have removed themselves from consideration with the Conference Championship game and the Classics. I guess their 3rd place team could get an at-large, but no way the 3rd place team from one of the lower-tier FCS conferences would get an At-large, even with the expanded field.

UMass is not eligible because of transition. UNA is the same way I think.

[darell1976]

Include them if you think they ar a Top 25! The poll is not a playoff poll but Top 25!

NDSU set the bar with their #1 ranking during transition.

[MR. CHICKEN]

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[UAalum72]

I think you have to include them, just so the teams that play them get due credit. If someone beats a top Ivy team, it would help them more if voters were reminded that the Ivy had been a top-20 team.

[MR. CHICKEN]

I think you have to include them, just so the teams that play them get due credit. If someone beats a top Ivy team, it would help them more if voters were reminded that the Ivy had been a top-20 team.

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[Squealofthepig]

A few years ago, it was much more difficult with the ivies especially; however, over the last few years (as others have pointed out) they're playing enough ooc games against quality teams to feel worthy of including. Last year saw Penn losing closely to Villanova on the road; Brown narrowly losing at Rhode Island; and Yale losing (at home) to Albany. 'Nova was Penn's only loss and I would guess that record was enough to make most voters at least consider ranking them.

The HBC's are much more difficult. Grambling State last year finished at 9-2 (8-1), with one loss a conference loss on the road and the other a loss to WAC member Louisiana Tech (losses which don't seem like huge negatives). But, unlike the Ivy, you have to start doing a few degrees of separation before comparing teams vs. other ranked teams.

Ultimately, I try striking a balance between how good I feel a team is, and how they've performed on the field; I always consider teams from the SWAC/MEAC/Ivy, but I'll admit I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about them as I am the CAA, Missouri Valley, Big Sky, Southern, Southland or even Pioneer.

[Jackman]

No, they don't play enough teams outside their little sandbox. You may as well put the ACC in the poll if you include the Ivy. Boston College has more interaction with scholarship FCS than Harvard does. Give them their own poll separate from FCS. That's what they want anyway.

[1andDone]

South Alabama isn't eligible

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I don't consider the Ivy or SWAC. The CAA, Patriot, and NEC schools who occasionally compete against the league appear to think highly of the top Ivy teams and I get that they have some good players (most schools do), but they have chosen to remove themselves from consideration by not participating fully in the division and their public reason (interferes with academics) is BS.

The SWAC's reasons are financial and I don't blame them much, but their record against teams outside the MEAC and Tenn St. is not good. I see the Ivy and SWAC as conferences which "do their own thing" and I let them.

[bkrownd]

Give them their own poll separate from FCS. That's what they want anyway.

It's called the Lambert Cup ;)

[gasoutherneagle]

I gotta admit, the thread is a lot more civil this time around. Great input, though.

I've been a fence sitter on this, rocking back and forth. But, lately I've been rocking back towards not including them. It seems to be justified that if you voluntarily don't participate, you should not be included in the polling. I HAVE heard good arguments the other way, though. Dammit... still sitting.xbangx

[TheValleyRaider]

No, they don't play enough teams outside their little sandbox. You may as well put the ACC in the poll if you include the Ivy. Boston College has more interaction with scholarship FCS than Harvard does. Give them their own poll separate from FCS. That's what they want anyway.

Come on now, because the PL doesn't give scholarships, Harvard's games against them don't count? xrolleyesx

Their schedules consist of FCS opponents with a smattering of FBS/DII foes (mostly from the SWAC), their players are eligible (and receive) national FCS awards and honors, and it's not their fault that their accomplishments don't include the opportunity to compete in the postseason

This is a Top 25 ranking of FCS schools. Not a ranking of some FCS schools, not a playoff rating system, not a "who's most likely to win in Frisco" list. Teams and their players should not be "punished" (to the extent being left out of a ranking is punishment) simply because their administration chooses not to participate in the postseason while fulfulling every other requirement for membership in the subdivision. Absolutely they should be considered

[Squealofthepig]

One other argument to at least consider them - although most in a top 25 ballot won't have played them, a few will have. If you never consider the ivies or the HBCs, you'll also probably not give as much weight to the teams that do play them (which will include a CAA team or two, at the least).

An issue, entirely separate from voting, is whether or not the rest of the FCS should even bother scheduling them - after all, if these schools are opting out of the playoffs, scheduling them instead of an ooc opponent or taking an FBS payout makes a bit less sense. But, so long as a team like Penn is running away with the conference AND scheduling teams like Nova and Lafayette, I have to at least consider them as a voter.

[MR. CHICKEN]

One other argument to at least consider them - although most in a top 25 ballot won't have played them, a few will have. If you never consider the ivies or the HBCs, you'll also probably not give as much weight to the teams that do play them (which will include a CAA team or two, at the least).

An issue, entirely separate from voting, is whether or not the rest of the FCS should even bother scheduling them - after all, if these schools are opting out of the playoffs, scheduling them instead of an ooc opponent or taking an FBS payout makes a bit less sense. But, so long as a team like Penn is running away with the conference AND scheduling teams like Nova and Lafayette, I have to at least consider them as a voter.

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[BucBisonAtLarge]

I note that those of us from Patriot League schools have been uniformly vocal for the Ivies' inclusion. They play at least FCS-level ball-- rather had our collective lunch last year. Today there are 7 games between the two leagues, so will begin this year's assessment. For the vast majority of members of the FCS the Ivy League rendered themselves irrelevant through their scheduling. Their placement in a top 25 this past week was reallyjust a good natured guess if you selected Penn, Harvard, Yale, Brown or Dartmouth. They had not played. This week at least they strap on pads and mix it up.

We should be roping schools into full participation in the subdivision. The FCS is a better division for their presence regardless if they choose not to participate in the post-season (both SWAC and Ivy). Ivy League 'Olympic sport' teams routinely populate the Division I top twenty rankings for those sports, and they do participate in the post-season in every other sport.

This refusal to participate in the NCAA-sponsored post-season in football while every other sport is eligible to do so creates a tension-- football appears discriminated against. The whole NCAA tournament ethos was not in place when the Ancient 8 chose its current policy. if men's lscrosse and men's hockey can have schools like Cornell and Yale at number 1 in the past year, what is so radically different about football? The fact that a highlly-ranked Ivy team would be on the sidelines will increase pressures from students and alumni. Rank them like u see them.