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DFW HOYA
August 9th, 2011, 10:31 PM
...but the presidents don't. No changes expected. End of story.

http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2011/08/ivy_league_coaches_still_clamo.html

Go Lehigh TU owl
August 9th, 2011, 10:34 PM
The Ivy League champ would do damage in the playoffs most years imo. It's an absolute crime they don't compete.

bluehenbillk
August 9th, 2011, 10:50 PM
Even more of a stupid premise than FBS settling things with the BCS. Every sport except football the Ivy can send a team(s) to postseason. Ivy League Presidents need to be taken to task on this and the players & coaches need to be more vocal/forceful about it....

DJOM
August 9th, 2011, 11:15 PM
I am sorry. I thought an Ivy League education would have been enough. Let's remember less than one tenth of one percent of seniors that play high school football play pro ball.

bojeta
August 9th, 2011, 11:23 PM
I am sorry. I thought an Ivy League education would have been enough. Let's remember less than one tenth of one percent of seniors that play high school football play pro ball.

I'm sorry, but who is to say what's enough for others? If the players and coaches and probably the alumni want it, then.... in a free, democratic society, they should get it!

The Eagle's Cliff
August 9th, 2011, 11:27 PM
The Ivy League champ would do damage in the playoffs most years imo. It's an absolute crime they don't compete.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but on what evidence is this opinion based? Because of their limited schedule, there's very little OOC play outside their games with the Patriot League to use as comparison. A quick search showed me that Brown, Harvard, Yale, and Penn were the Ivy Champs in the 2000's and those teams combined for a dismal 5-16 against the CAA from 2000-2010.

Harvard only played OOC against Lafayette, Lehigh, and Holy Cross. Predictably, they beat up on Holy Cross and Lafayette most of the time, but were only 3-5 against Lehigh. I don't see how the Ivy's could be predicted do any better than the NEC without committing to scholarship football however admirable their competitiveness without scholarships is.

Go Lehigh TU owl
August 9th, 2011, 11:36 PM
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but on what evidence is this opinion based? Because of their limited schedule, there's very little OOC play outside their games with the Patriot League to use as comparison. A quick search showed me that Brown, Harvard, Yale, and Penn were the Ivy Champs in the 2000's and those teams combined for a dismal 5-16 against the CAA from 2000-2010.

Harvard only played OOC against Lafayette, Lehigh, and Holy Cross. Predictably, they beat up on Holy Cross and Lafayette most of the time, but were only 3-5 against Lehigh. I don't see how the Ivy's could be predicted do any better than the NEC without committing to scholarship football however admirable their competitiveness without scholarships is.

The IL teams are able to snag some players away from BCS schools of their academics. The talent level of their better teams is much better than you might think. The Harvard teams with Fitzpatrick and the (RB?) the early 2000 Penn teams were all top shelf FCS squads. Even the Penn team last year was capable of beating several of the playoffs teams imo.

bluehenbillk
August 9th, 2011, 11:36 PM
I am sorry. I thought an Ivy League education would have been enough. Let's remember less than one tenth of one percent of seniors that play high school football play pro ball.

Ok, I'll play. I don't disagree with you. If an Ivy league education is enough, explain why every other sport, men's & women's participate in the postseason. The women's volleyball players the Ivy turns out every year that turn pro is just tremendous...... Is consistency a little too much to ask??

bonarae
August 10th, 2011, 05:41 AM
The Ivy League champ would do damage in the playoffs most years imo. It's an absolute crime they don't compete.

Tsk. Is it more than we could ask for? This can be enough for us to make us competitive. xbawlingx


Even more of a stupid premise than FBS settling things with the BCS. Every sport except football the Ivy can send a team(s) to postseason. Ivy League Presidents need to be taken to task on this and the players & coaches need to be more vocal/forceful about it....

Doable, but it's still wishful thinking at best for us. xsmhx


The IL teams are able to snag some players away from BCS schools of their academics. The talent level of their better teams is much better than you might think. The Harvard teams with Fitzpatrick and the (RB?) the early 2000 Penn teams were all top shelf FCS squads. Even the Penn team last year was capable of beating several of the playoffs teams imo.

Who were their OOC opponents? Think again. If they were playing the likes of Montana and Appalachian State even back then, they would get humiliated. xconfusedx


Ok, I'll play. I don't disagree with you. If an Ivy league education is enough, explain why every other sport, men's & women's participate in the postseason. The women's volleyball players the Ivy turns out every year that turn pro is just tremendous...... Is consistency a little too much to ask??

Try asking the Division III's UAA, where the University of Chicago currently plays in. They seem to follow the Ivies, in which their football champion doesn't play in the playoffs as well...

Bogus Megapardus
August 10th, 2011, 09:15 AM
There's always the mythical "I.Q. Bowl." It's not as if it hasn't been proposed before.

Dane96
August 10th, 2011, 09:37 AM
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but on what evidence is this opinion based? Because of their limited schedule, there's very little OOC play outside their games with the Patriot League to use as comparison. A quick search showed me that Brown, Harvard, Yale, and Penn were the Ivy Champs in the 2000's and those teams combined for a dismal 5-16 against the CAA from 2000-2010.

Harvard only played OOC against Lafayette, Lehigh, and Holy Cross. Predictably, they beat up on Holy Cross and Lafayette most of the time, but were only 3-5 against Lehigh. I don't see how the Ivy's could be predicted do any better than the NEC without committing to scholarship football however admirable their competitiveness without scholarships is.

Oh lord...this again.

If you think the IVY can't get who they want...via scholarship...you're smoking something heavy. Let's just say, if they want a kid...and the kid wants them...they will find the money to make it work.

Bogus Megapardus
August 10th, 2011, 09:46 AM
Oh lord...this again.

If you think the IVY can't get who they want...via scholarship...you're smoking something heavy. Let's just say, if they want a kid...and the kid wants them...they will find the money to make it work.

Precisely. Big Ivy sends out its infamous "likely admit" letters to the players it wants. Get one of those, and the process takes care of itself. Money is never an issue.

appfan2008
August 10th, 2011, 10:32 AM
I would like to see them in the playoffs but I dont think I would view the Ivy League winner as a threat for the title anytime soon...

NHwildEcat
August 10th, 2011, 10:42 AM
I am sorry. I thought an Ivy League education would have been enough. Let's remember less than one tenth of one percent of seniors that play high school football play pro ball.

So you agree then that if there is no postseason in football, there should be no postseason in any other sport too?

Lehigh Football Nation
August 10th, 2011, 11:24 AM
I think everyone here is missing the real news coming from this piece:


“First of all,” Harvard coach Tim Murphy said, “I will go on record that I would vote for it in a heartbeat. Why? Because (it would be) the best thing in the league and the best thing for the student-athletes.”

Number one, the Ivy League coaches have not always been unified on this very issue. Number two, coach Murphy has done a complete 180 on his position on the postseason that he's voiced in the past.

I don't know if the IL presidents will ever back down on the postseason ban - but this unified front from the coaches is very new, and Murphy, who has assiduously (and wisely) followed the party line of his president for more than a decade on issues in general, either is publicly breaking from the opinion of the president that pays his bills or reflecting a change in philosophy of the man in charge. Either way, it's news.

The Eagle's Cliff
August 10th, 2011, 11:28 AM
Oh lord...this again.

If you think the IVY can't get who they want...via scholarship...you're smoking something heavy. Let's just say, if they want a kid...and the kid wants them...they will find the money to make it work.

You might want to re-read my post. I'm not questioning the Ivy's ability to compete. I'm looking at OOC wins in the 2000's and saying that their philosophy about recruiting and scholarships would have to change if they were to "make some noise" in the playoffs as LFN suggested.

As I understand it, the Ivy's have a great sports league that represents the true spirit of Intercollegiate Athletics where "students" are actually competing with other "students". The Ivy's didn't want to play the game as it evolved in the Big Ten, SEC, Southwest, and PAC 10. I've said before that I don't count the Ivy's as FCS, because I-AA exists for financial reasons that don't apply to Ivy's.

However, if they want to play in the playoffs without changing their philosophy, they'll have as much success as the MEAC.

Bogus Megapardus
August 10th, 2011, 11:43 AM
I think everyone here is missing the real news coming from this piece:


"First of all,” Harvard coach Tim Murphy said, “I will go on record that I would vote for it in a heartbeat. Why? Because (it would be) the best thing in the league and the best thing for the student-athletes.”

Number one, the Ivy League coaches have not always been unified on this very issue. Number two, coach Murphy has done a complete 180 on his position on the postseason that he's voiced in the past.

I don't know if the IL presidents will ever back down on the postseason ban - but this unified front from the coaches is very new, and Murphy, who has assiduously (and wisely) followed the party line of his president for more than a decade on issues in general, either is publicly breaking from the opinion of the president that pays his bills or reflecting a change in philosophy of the man in charge. Either way, it's news.

I've never known Murphy to be against post-season play. He is, of course, on record as saying the Ivies will never have scholarships and that if the PL allows them, changes would have to be made to Harvard's OOC schedule (i.e., no more Cantab road trips to Pardsville, I suppose):


“It’s something we’re definitely keeping an eye on because if they go scholarships—we’re talking about the league now—it will change dramatically,” Harvard coach Tim Murphy says. “The last time any Patriot League school had scholarships in that league was Holy Cross in the ’80s and ’90s. They dominated Eastern football at this level in a way that wasn’t seen before and hasn’t been seen since.”

* * * * *

“It will never happen in our league, and it shouldn’t,” Murphy says. “It’s not appropriate, because every kid here has something a little bit special about them. I think while in a certain world you might think that might be great for Harvard football, I think anything you do to try to distinguish athletes as being different from other students would not be a good thing.”

* * * * * *

But if the Patriot League does step up the quality of its recruits, then necessary alterations will inevitably have to be made to Harvard’s non-conference schedule.

“We’ll have to adjust for sure,” Murphy admits, adding that the decision to schedule Fordham in an upcoming season was made “before we knew they were going to scholarships.”

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2009/9/18/football-09-patriot-games-scholarships-pose/

Dane96
August 10th, 2011, 11:56 AM
You might want to re-read my post. I'm not questioning the Ivy's ability to compete. I'm looking at OOC wins in the 2000's and saying that their philosophy about recruiting and scholarships would have to change if they were to "make some noise" in the playoffs as LFN suggested.

As I understand it, the Ivy's have a great sports league that represents the true spirit of Intercollegiate Athletics where "students" are actually competing with other "students". The Ivy's didn't want to play the game as it evolved in the Big Ten, SEC, Southwest, and PAC 10. I've said before that I don't count the Ivy's as FCS, because I-AA exists for financial reasons that don't apply to Ivy's.

However, if they want to play in the playoffs without changing their philosophy, they'll have as much success as the MEAC.

I don't have to re-read what you wrote...I'm quite capable of comprehension. I focused on the part that said "without scholarships" which implied that without such, IVY's could not possibly compete without changing the philosophy.

One, it would hard to fight that argument without any data...which does not exist of course because they dont compete in the playoffs.

Two, I was pointing out that they have kids on scholarship...as anyone who has ever been recruited by an IVY or affiliated with someone who has recruited/been recruited for/by and Ivy knows. They just call it something different.

Believe me...it they voted to go to the playoffs and Harvard shows at your door and says, "Hey, kid...you are getting a Harvard education, Harvard contacts, playoff football...and btw, don't worry about the scholarship issue...we have a way to get you the money" they wouldn't become competitive without officially calling it a "scholarship"?

Come on now...naivity does not suit you.

Dane96
August 10th, 2011, 11:58 AM
I've never know Murphy to be against post-season play. He is, of course, on record as saying the Ivies will never have scholarships and that if the PL allows them, changes would have to be made to Harvard's OOC schedule (i.e., no more Cantab road trips to Pardsville, I suppose):



http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2009/9/18/football-09-patriot-games-scholarships-pose/

Thank you...I dont want LFN to think I am all over him. I have lived in Boston for 12 years...and Murphy has ALWAYS publicly stated or implied that he would like the playoffs. What he has said is a win over Yale in a packed house is all the Bowl Game/Playoff he would need. Which is something different than being against the playoffs.

That said, Murphy is publicly saying the right thing about schollies...but the truth is they have them. Hell, I was (smidgen apart) this close to going to Princeton on a partial for baseball. My parents were not rich...not poor...but they sure as heck didnt meet any requirement that should have allowed me to receive the money Princeton was offering.

citdog
August 10th, 2011, 12:04 PM
The home and home series between princeton and The Citadel was VERY telling of what the ivy league would do against the best conferences in the FCS and the answer is LOSE.

Lehigh Football Nation
August 10th, 2011, 12:06 PM
Thank you...I dont want LFN to think I am all over him. I have lived in Boston for 12 years...and Murphy has ALWAYS publicly stated or implied that he would like the playoffs. What he has said is a win over Yale in a packed house is all the Bowl Game/Playoff he would need. Which is something different than being against the playoffs.

A fair point. However, his comments have almost always been double-sided (on the one hand, playoffs are great! It's indefensible why we don't have it! But... Harvard/Yale is a Bowl Game! The playoffs could be anticlimatic! It's fitting that the season end on Harvard/Yale!). These comments were not double-sided at all - whether it's the choice of the reporter to edit out the "on the other hand", I'm not sure, but it sure did stick out to me.

Lehigh Football Nation
August 10th, 2011, 12:07 PM
The home and home series between princeton and The Citadel was VERY telling of what the ivy league would do against the best conferences in the FCS and the answer is LOSE.

All I know is that Princeton's band lost. xlolx

Bogus Megapardus
August 10th, 2011, 12:17 PM
A fair point. However, his comments have almost always been double-sided (on the one hand, playoffs are great! It's indefensible why we don't have it! But... Harvard/Yale is a Bowl Game! The playoffs could be anticlimatic! It's fitting that the season end on Harvard/Yale!). These comments were not double-sided at all - whether it's the choice of the reporter to edit out the "on the other hand", I'm not sure, but it sure did stick out to me.

LFN, Dane96 and others - what would be on more interest to casual football fans in the northeast: FCS playoff football against Georgia Southern or Youngstown state, or a separate Lambert Cup playoff system involving the Ivy, the Patriot and the NEC (and somehow adding in UNH, Maine, Delaware and Villanova)? The game could be at a pre-designated stadium each year (i.e., the Yale Bowl, Fitton Field, Princeton Stadium) that holds +/- 25,000.

This would eliminate the Ivy travel-time-during-exams concerns that Ivy posits as as the reason behind its no post-season policy.

bluehenbillk
August 10th, 2011, 01:02 PM
LFN, Dane96 and others - what would be on more interest to casual football fans in the northeast: FCS playoff football against Georgia Southern or Youngstown state, or a separate Lambert Cup playoff system involving the Ivy, the Patriot and the NEC (and somehow adding in UNH, Maine, Delaware and Villanova)? The game could be at a pre-designated stadium each year (i.e., the Yale Bowl, Fitton Field, Princeton Stadium) that holds +/- 25,000.

This would eliminate the Ivy travel-time-during-exams concerns that Ivy posits as as the reason behind its no post-season policy.

You could have that idea for the Ivy, NEC & Patriot - might actually spark some regional interest. There's no way a CAA team would buy into that though, nobody at UD really cares about a Lambert Cup, it's all about a national title.

Dane96
August 10th, 2011, 01:19 PM
Albany wouldn't buy it either.

Anovafan
August 10th, 2011, 01:52 PM
Penn should have been a playoff team several times in years past. They could have easily reached the quarters or semis in the last two years. Penn just about beat Nova the year Nova won the national championship. They will most likely beat Nova this year. The Ivy presidents are just being elitist and stupid. Harvard, Yale and Penn have 3 great stadiums and they ould look awesome on TV hosting a playoff game. The IL schools are much more well known than most FCS schools out there.

Pard4Life
August 10th, 2011, 02:07 PM
I am somewhat glad the Ivy League does not compete in the playoffs because that would be one less marketing ploy to use on prospective recruits: "hey kid, want to compete for a national title?" I am sure that has about a 1% influence on any decision since the Ivy is what it is, but still... the PL would further be second rung on the intellectual football school market.

It also baffles me that everyone not from the northeast is saying the Ivy champion would be a weak playoff team. Based on what... PL performance? Like the 'Nova poster said, those Penn teams were during Nova runs were very strong. Harvard in 2004 had an NFL QB, and arguably the best RB, OL, and a top WR in all of FCS.

Harvard and Penn are very capable of winning the national championship, and Princeton can be if it gets its act together.

bonarae
August 10th, 2011, 06:26 PM
The home and home series between princeton and The Citadel was VERY telling of what the ivy league would do against the best conferences in the FCS and the answer is LOSE.

The other posters aren't that concerned of this, but it's true. See my first post in this thread.


LFN, Dane96 and others - what would be on more interest to casual football fans in the northeast: FCS playoff football against Georgia Southern or Youngstown state, or a separate Lambert Cup playoff system involving the Ivy, the Patriot and the NEC (and somehow adding in UNH, Maine, Delaware and Villanova)? The game could be at a pre-designated stadium each year (i.e., the Yale Bowl, Fitton Field, Princeton Stadium) that holds +/- 25,000.

This would eliminate the Ivy travel-time-during-exams concerns that Ivy posits as as the reason behind its no post-season policy.

Can the FCS playoff selection committee consider this arrangement if the Ivy finally allows itself to be in the playoffs? Maybe not. Lambert Cup? Of course it should happen, but CAA cannot back out of the playoffs...


Penn should have been a playoff team several times in years past. They could have easily reached the quarters or semis in the last two years. Penn just about beat Nova the year Nova won the national championship. They will most likely beat Nova this year. The Ivy presidents are just being elitist and stupid. Harvard, Yale and Penn have 3 great stadiums and they ould look awesome on TV hosting a playoff game. The IL schools are much more well known than most FCS schools out there.

Right. :(


I am somewhat glad the Ivy League does not compete in the playoffs because that would be one less marketing ploy to use on prospective recruits: "hey kid, want to compete for a national title?" I am sure that has about a 1% influence on any decision since the Ivy is what it is, but still... the PL would further be second rung on the intellectual football school market.

It also baffles me that everyone not from the northeast is saying the Ivy champion would be a weak playoff team. Based on what... PL performance? Like the 'Nova poster said, those Penn teams were during Nova runs were very strong. Harvard in 2004 had an NFL QB, and arguably the best RB, OL, and a top WR in all of FCS.

Harvard and Penn are very capable of winning the national championship, and Princeton can be if it gets its act together.

Oh yes, I remember those days, but PL competition (then and even now) is quite weak compared to Big Sky and the southern FCS conferences. CAA is a good gauge but it's not enough.

Go...gate
August 10th, 2011, 07:43 PM
The home and home series between princeton and The Citadel was VERY telling of what the ivy league would do against the best conferences in the FCS and the answer is LOSE.

I agree, though I'm glad that Princeton stepped up outside the Ivy by playing The Citadel, as well as Hampton. I don't know if Princeton's future schedules will keep that up, however.

Pard4Life
August 11th, 2011, 09:19 AM
New coach in Princeton, but it should continue... they are trying to expand their geographic footprint a bit to reach alumni (I read somewhere), and they have played at San Diego. If they get a waiver as a league it would not be surprising to see Princeton play FBS teams like Stanford, Cal, or Northwestern.

bonarae
August 11th, 2011, 10:46 AM
If they get a waiver as a league it would not be surprising to see Princeton play FBS teams like Stanford, Cal, or Northwestern.

Another item in our wishlist, but can these FBS schools agree on scheduling us? How about Vanderbilt?

Pard4Life
August 11th, 2011, 11:07 AM
Vanderbilt too, add Rice why not. These schools are usually the gimme games for the FBS teams.

Harvard and Yale really didnt have any realtionships with current FBS teams like Rutgers and Princeton, aside from Army, yes? Surprising that Army was not included in the Ivy line up in 1956...

Sader87
August 11th, 2011, 11:43 AM
I somewhat surprised the Johnnies haven't diversified their regular season schedule much over the last couple of decades. The only non-PL school they've played over the last decade is now defunct Northeastern. Like HC and Colgate, it seems Harvard started to downgrade their OOC schedule in the mid 90's.

DFW HOYA
August 11th, 2011, 11:47 AM
I somewhat surprised the Johnnies haven't diversified their regular season schedule much over the last couple of decades. The only non-PL school they've played over the last decade is now defunct Northeastern. Like HC and Colgate, it seems Harvard started to downgrade their OOC schedule in the mid 90's.

Harvard hasn't played a game west of Franklin Field since the 1940's.

kdinva
August 11th, 2011, 12:22 PM
The academic/exams reason used is old and worn out..........schools like UR, W&M, Wofford and others don't have a hang-up with playing a couple of games in December.......

bonarae
August 11th, 2011, 06:17 PM
I somewhat surprised the Johnnies haven't diversified their regular season schedule much over the last couple of decades. The only non-PL school they've played over the last decade is now defunct Northeastern. Like HC and Colgate, it seems Harvard started to downgrade their OOC schedule in the mid 90's.

xsmhx How about bringing W&M back to the Stadium after two decades?


Harvard hasn't played a game west of Franklin Field since the 1940's.

This will all change with San Diego in a few years, but still that's a long time.


The academic/exams reason used is old and worn out..........schools like UR, W&M, Wofford and others don't have a hang-up with playing a couple of games in December.......

The Presidents' mentality... you can't change it... xnonono2x

DFW HOYA
August 11th, 2011, 06:51 PM
The Presidents' mentality... you can't change it... xnonono2x

When was the last Harvard president that wasn't educated in the Ivy League? The Yard doesn't collapse if they selected a president from, say, Duke or Michigan.

But outside of Derek Bok, I'd guess most HYP presidents have a hundred other things on their mind besides football. There is a lot of status quo when it comes to athletics. The alumni have to make it a point (read=financially) that they want change.

Pard4Life
August 12th, 2011, 01:18 PM
Harvard hasn't played a game west of Franklin Field since the 1940's.

Yes... Cornell...

Ivytalk
August 12th, 2011, 09:53 PM
bonarae is too pessimistic. This is the most positive statement from Tim Murphy EVER on the playoffs. Two years ago, he settled for Harvard-Yale to end the season. Get off your butt, Drew Gilpin Faust! Approve the playoffs, and the Ivytalk contributions to Harvard will again flow like water!xnodx

dgtw
August 13th, 2011, 12:37 AM
I'd be willing to wager the Ivy League champ that goes to the NCAA basketball tournament misses more class time than the football team would if they went to a playoff game. Likely the same for every other sport in which the Ivies compete in the postseason.

Bogus Megapardus
August 13th, 2011, 03:22 AM
Plus, Ivies go deep into the playoffs in some sports. They're not one-and-out.