LFN: Will There Be Another 25 Years of Patriot League Football?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/08/will-there-be-another-25-years-of.html

Picking up a little on DFW's excellent blog post, I try to actually go focus things a bit more - given that it's impossible to see a scenario where Fordham stays, will Patriot League football even survive another 25 years?

And if it survives - it sure as heck won't be in the form it is today.

[Seawolf97]

It is almost impossible to look out 25 years in anything. With college football given the rapidly changing landscape of not only FCS but FBS/BCS -nothing we see today will probably be the same in 25 years. But I understand your point and your concern. Interesting you mention Fordham heading to the Big South. My thoughts exactly. They cannot survive as an independent , too soon for the CAA, and I don't think they are concerned about public opinion in the PL. Hey great matchup for us down the road. Just hope something positive comes out of all this for you guys.

[DetroitFlyer]

LFN and DFW both make some interesting points. Let me throw out another longer term possibility.... Let's say that the PFL does indeed obtain an auto bid to the FCS playoffs. Frankly, now that one has been requested I have to believe it is only a matter of time until one is granted. If nothing else, the sheer size of the league will ultimately count for something. So, let's assume that that the PFL obtains an auto bid and actually enjoys some success in the playoffs. I'm not saying win a national championship, but maybe win a game or two every 5 to 10 years. Would a "success level" for the PFL of this nature be enough for the PL to consider adopting the PFL model, (which is very similar to the Ivy model minus the big bucks and AI)? A true, non-athletic, scholarship, (for football only), PL would be very attractive to a number of schools for expansion. Marist almost for certain and it would open up a world of possibility for lower division programs that fit the PL model to move up. At the end of the day, a family does not care where the money comes from to go to college. I heard just the other day that a Dayton recruit from my area told a person I work with that he got a "football scholarship". So, this person asks me about it knowing that Dayton is non-athletic scholarship. A bit of research revealed that this player is a National Honor Society member, (a good student), so he qualified for academic and/or need based aid. In fact, from a family’s perspective, this might be a better deal. If the football thing does not work out, the player can quit the team AND still keep his aid. Kind of nice to have your options open. (I know two students who took academic scholarships to Stetson for golf for this very reason. Both played golf all four years, but they liked having their options open just in case....). Remember, back in 1991 when the Pioneer Football League was formed, the vision was that there was a demand for this model of Division I football. The PFL was to be the pioneer in leading this development. Granted, it has been a rough road, but here in 2011 the non-athletic scholarship Division I football momentum is building.... Truth be told, both the Ivy and PL lose recruits to PFL schools mainly because the kids want to play close to home and the aid packages are competitive. A true, non-athletic scholarship PL without an AI might just have an advantage over the Ivy and PFL for those players.

[Franks Tanks]

Flyer I understand your points, but several PL schools spend several million a year on athletic aid for football players. This is aid that is not available to the general student body, so adopting a PFL model would mean PL schools have much less aid to offer recruits.

PL schools are better than most in the way of need based aid for regular students since endowments on a per student basis are high. We still need the athletic aid to entice recruits on many occasions.

[DetroitFlyer]

Flyer I understand your points, but several PL schools spend several million a year on athletic aid for football players. This is aid that is not available to the general student body, so adopting a PFL model would mean PL schools have much less aid to offer recruits.

PL schools are better than most in the way of need based aid for regular students since endowments on a per student basis are high. We still need the athletic aid to entice recruits on many occasions.

I hear ya! The only solution to that issue is to increase aid for all students. Easy no, but in the long term, which we are talking about here, it is a win/win for all concerned. If private schools are going to thrive long term, financial aid to students, (read not loans), is going to have to improve. The goal, obviously, for a school would be to offer enough aid for students that happen to play football to be competitive with other similar programs, (Ivy, PFL). I do not see a day where a non-Ivy school will be able to compete head to head with good ole State U for 63 athletic scholarship players, but IF the PFL can prove that the model currently being used can be successful at the FCS level, then maybe it is something the PL could look at long term as well. Granted, it would take a somewhat radical departure from the status quo, but this is something that is a fairly easy sell among all stake holders as it does not appear to compromise academic integrity. Who can argue that improving financial aid for all students is a bad thing? It would take a very focused and dedicated effort to realize this "dream", but it might not be completely impossible....

[Model Citizen]

IF the PFL can prove that the model currently being used can be successful at the FCS level, then maybe it is something the PL could look at long term as well.

The Patriot is not going non-scholarship. Ever.

[LUHawker]

The Patriot is not going non-scholarship. Ever.

Agreed. While not full scholly, most of the PL schools are still spending meaningful $ on football and given the size and quality of facilities across the league, in general, I don't think downgrading is in the cards.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If anything, the PL wants to to the new Ivy thing - having enough financial muscle to offer every accepted student essentially a free ride with a $2,500.00 cap on loans and/or and a tuition limit of 10% of family income. Several PL schools began moving in this direction a few years ago.

It's wishful thinking, of course. Only H-Y-P, and Stanford, can really afford this. A handful of DIII schools could afford it as well (i.e., MIT, Cal Tech, Williams, Swarthmore, Grinnell).

While the faculty would embrace this, of course, it's just not possible.

[TheValleyRaider]

So, let's assume that that the PFL obtains an auto bid and actually enjoys some success in the playoffs. I'm not saying win a national championship, but maybe win a game or two every 5 to 10 years. Would a "success level" for the PFL of this nature be enough for the PL to consider adopting the PFL model, (which is very similar to the Ivy model minus the big bucks and AI)? A true, non-athletic, scholarship, (for football only), PL would be very attractive to a number of schools for expansion. Marist almost for certain and it would open up a world of possibility for lower division programs that fit the PL model to move up.

An interesting proposal, but unlikely due to the general mindset of PL leadership (the presidents, that is). If one of Non-Scholarship or AI were to go, it would likely be the Non-Scholarship model. There's already some support amongst member schools to add scholarships (plus the League allows them in every other sport), and the AI allows them to convince themselves/pretend that they're on a similar playing field as the Ivy League (which is the only model they're really looking at emulating)

However enticing it may sound, if the PL wasn't interested in Marist the first go-round, they aren't likely to (in their vision) lower their standards by dumping the AI to entice a school like that at this point

Amongst some schools, the finances could potentially sound enticing, but I can assure you Colgate (which apparently could get to FBS-counter level in scholarships quickly if not immediately), and the alumni base in particular, would have little interest in downgrading its financial obligations in that manner

[DFW HOYA]

As noted earlier, my previous post was a better-case scenario for the PL going forward. Here is an alternative (if grim) scenario.

"In adding scholarships, Fordham has become a stalking horse for Colgate's football aspirations. The Rams leave the PL and go independent after 2012, but have been in close communications with both Colgate's president and with the CAA commissioner to shore up the northern half of the conference. The CAA, having lost Villanova, UMass, and URI, will extend an offer to Fordham, but only if Colgate comes along.

With the money quietly raised for 63 scholarships, Colgate still can't play football in another conference without moving all its sports, but by opting to go as a scholarship independent, they are relieved of the constraint, and can still park its remaining sports in the PL. Rather than kick Colgate out, the PL reluctantly moves to establish scheduling relationships among the remaining five schools in lieu of a formal league championship. A "Patriot Cup" is proposed as the league falls below the NCAA minimum to support an autobid. Fordham and Colgate then surprise many in the East to announce a move to the CAA, creating a northern division of Maine, UNH, Colgate, Fordham, Delaware, and Towson.

During this same time James Madison and/or Georgia State independently inform the CAA that it may soon explore other options. Behind the scenes, Lehigh is approached by Colgate's president to consider an upgrade once either of these southern schools give notice, and assures him of support from the northern CAA schools, with Towson moving to the southern division if Lehigh is added. Lehigh is posed with a "lady or the tiger" dilemma--Lehigh dominates what is left of the PL but its recruiting and prestige have taken a hit from losing the autobid and the presence of scholarships at Colgate and Fordham. It must either recommit with the other four PL schools, with no short-term hope for regular playoff opportunities, or make a long-term commitment to the CAA, but one which would consign the annual Lafayette game to whatever date on the calendar fits the CAA schedules. Behind closed doors, some will contend Lehigh's football future can't be held hostage by Dr. Weiss' line on scholarships, while others will argue that Lehigh would be selling its birthright to abandon Lafayette and the remaining schools to move up the football ladder. So, in early 2014, Lehigh University holds a news conference at Stabler Arena to announce...."

Well, to be determined.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette will NOT go anywhere without Lehigh, and vice-versa. Speculate if you wish, but that's just the way it is in these parts. You could almost throw Colgate in there too, but not quite. These places probably move as a unit, if at all.

[DFW HOYA]

Lafayette will NOT go anywhere without Lehigh, and vice-versa. Speculate if you wish, but that's just the way it is in these parts. You could almost throw Colgate in there too, but not quite. These places probably move as a unit, if at all.

Perhaps, but it's not like Lehigh was going to follow Art Rothkopf to Division III.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Perhaps, but it's not like Lehigh was going to follow Art Rothkopf to Division III.

Of course not. To wit: where are Uncle Artie and his Division III hypothesis these days? Shrinking exponentially into an obfuscatory, well-occluded rear-view window, at best - his voice suffering from Doppler fade and sine-wave distortion as he disintegrates into meaninglessness.

Kick-the Can Dan is on record as saying the Lafayette continues to be committed absolutely to Division I, as always. There is NO discussion of Division III, period. End of story.

[RichH2]

But DFW ,Pards did not fall on their sword and go III. Bogie is correct LU and LC will not part. Gate , unless offered by the Ivies, likewise will be there as will Bisons. The rest of the pieces may indeed change over the yrs but right now my crystal ball does not reveal many real alternatives for any of us.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Core Four forever, right?

[RichH2]

Yeah, I like that part, the rest of this limbo bullcr*p drives me to distraction. Of course as my senior moments start piling up that may no longer be such a major deal.

[TheValleyRaider]

I don't think Colgate is as tied to the other schools as, say, Lehigh and Lafayette. All things considered, I think their larger goal is to maintain the Patriot League as it provides a comfortable and like-minded home for the athletics program. They like and respect the other schools as institutions that will further that goal

DFW's scenario above is a bit of the doomsday picture (which he readily admits), but not as terribly far-fetched as you might think (at least, relative to the idea of Lehigh and Lafayette splitting apart). I'm not suggesting this could all play out tomorrow, or even within the next two years. But, it would not take as drastic of a culture change in Hamilton to make this move as it might in the other core members

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't think Colgate is as tied to the other schools as, say, Lehigh and Lafayette.

Correct - it's not. But if the other schools come part way, I think Colgate will do its part to remain in the fold as opposed to picking up its ball and going elsewhere.

[aceinthehole]

I guess this post really belongs here instead of the Preseason Poll thread. Sorry.


Ace - we have no other choice. We can't become a part of the NEC because of the academic index and the scholarship probation. Although the PL itself was created during a meeting on Alexander Street, we all know that there will be no invitations to anyone to join Ivy. We can't become part of the PFL because we'd have to abandon the grant-in-aid system and end our scholarship equivalencies.

The only option is to (a) bring in new members - even current D-III members - which can meet the AI and adapt the PL funding formula, or (b) allow football scholarships at some level which will facilitate new membership (including NEC or even CAA poaching). No existing FCS colleges seem to be interested in joining a status quo Patriot League. That means the PL has to change, or that others interested in PL membership must change.

Someone will blink first, I'm sure - but I think that the PL has the institutional wherewithal to suffer such a blink or three in the near term. We will survive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBR2G-iI3-I), I assure you.

I'm not so sure option (a) is realistic. The PL hasn't identified a current FCS program that meets their stringent requirements that has shown any mutual interest in the PL. Furthermore, the only known program to recently inquire about PL membership (Bryant, a D-II startup) was never seriously considered by the PL presidents for expansion. The timeline to bring on any D-III school is nearly 10 years due to NCAA requirements, and I've read no credible reports than anyone at RPI, JHU, or the like is interested in Division I athletics at all. As an outside observer, I have a very skeptical view regarding PL expansion under the status quo.

Isn't there an option (c) - that is the "core members" (as defined in another thread) agree to schedule each other indefinitely into the future, but they lack the required minimum membership to retain the AQ and "official" PL sponsorship. The become an "alliance" of like-minded and historical rivals.

Isn't it possible that another PL member (perhaps Colgate or Holy Cross) decides to take the "Fordham option" due to the inability of the PL presidents to vote for a change in the status quo? They would agree to continue their association with the PL in other sports and keep a schedule PL teams in football, but they would be free to offer scholarships and schedule $$$ games with FBS teams on an annual basis.

[TheValleyRaider]

Isn't it possible that another PL member (perhaps Colgate or Holy Cross) decides to take the "Fordham option" due to the inability of the PL presidents to vote for a change in the status quo? They would agree to continue their association with the PL in other sports and keep a schedule PL teams in football, but they would be free to offer scholarships and schedule $$$ games with FBS teams on an annual basis.

The basketball scenario. Fordham wanted scholarships, the League said no, Fordham leaves. Shortly thereafter, Holy Cross wanted scholarships, Army agreed, the PL allowed them on a do-whatever-you-want basis in order to keep HC and Army

Still, in my mind, the most likely scenario, but who would step up and make the demands?

[Ken_Z]

scholarships and then south. but i repeat myself.

[Seawolf97]

scholarships and then south. but i repeat myself.

South like CAA South or Big South? While many probably see the Big South as a non-starter it is a great conference to develop a full scholarship program. While not the CAA or SoCon. it is good place to build a your team , play money games against BCS/FBS teams and raise your profile. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Fordham there in a few years. It is also probably a stepping stone for us, Liberty and Coastal Carolina and not a final destination. I like it as fan -the competition is good and we have a bit of a rivalry with Liberty since we joined. So why not Bucknell or Colgate someday ? If Fordham leaves the PL has six football programs. Thats five conference games and six non-conference games. That is tough to schedule and I could see a D2 team on many a program for a home game. The down side for a PL team is no AI and not many IVY games. That could be a deal breaker for any PL AD or fan.

[Go...gate]

Core Four forever, right?

I think that is the one constant in all this. I used to think HC made it a "Core Five", but to continually hear the hostility to the conference stated by some HC fans now makes me doubt this. It especially troubles me because of the historic relationship between HC and Colgate, which I hope will endure.

[TheValleyRaider]

I think that is the one constant in all this. I used to think HC made it a "Core Five", but to continually hear the hostility to the conference stated by some HC fans now makes me doubt this. It especially troubles me because of the historic relationship between HC and Colgate, which I hope will endure.

Be careful about equating fan sentiment with the school's position. Juxtaposing the opinion of vocal fans with what appears to be the position of their administration, there seems to be quite a disconnect. Nothing the HC administration has done suggests to me that they are prepared to pull away from Colgate or the PL xtwocentsx

[Sader87]

I think that is the one constant in all this. I used to think HC made it a "Core Five", but to continually hear the hostility to the conference stated by some HC fans now makes me doubt this. It especially troubles me because of the historic relationship between HC and Colgate, which I hope will endure.

I'm just one lone crank but I know I "speak" for a good many of HC alumni of a certain age (40's and over)....as I've stated ad infinitum here, HC was just never a good fit in this conference....geographically, we are the only school in New England, institutionally, we are the only "core" Catholic liberal arts institution, historically, we only have the connection to Colgate.... principally in football. Since joining the PL, football (despite the best efforts of Coach Gilmore) has declined drastically both on the field and in interest. Basketball was propped up for awhile due to playing in the PL i.e. an easy way to get into the NCAA's but that has fallen lately (under 2,000 fans at the last PL tourney game)...our Olympic sports are a joke vis a vis other PL schools....it's just been a bad, bad fit in almost everyway for HC since the mid-80's.

The easy part is the *****ing of course...the solution? No idea, but in my opinion (non-scholarship football with NESCAC level crowds, very low D1 hoop and being over-matched in most every Olympic sport) continued membership in the PL is not it.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I simply don't understand where you base you comments off of Sader. HC was pretty much the dregs of "big time" college football before they joined the PL in the mid 80's. You guys were playing a watered down schedule and losing a lot more than you were winning. Holy Cross simply had no business playing FBS football in the modern era of college football, post 50's/60's.

As for basketball, HC hoops made the tourney a whopping 8 times before joining the PL and 5 times since. HC has not won a tournament game since 1953. My guess is that's the PL fault too?

I'll grant you HC has a little bit of athletic sucess from a bye gone era. However, you guys became irrelevant nationally long before you joined the PL.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yeah, but you don't understand . . . . they coulda been in the Big East . . . .

[Ken_Z]

South like CAA South or Big South? While many probably see the Big South as a non-starter it is a great conference to develop a full scholarship program. While not the CAA or SoCon. it is good place to build a your team , play money games against BCS/FBS teams and raise your profile. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Fordham there in a few years. It is also probably a stepping stone for us, Liberty and Coastal Carolina and not a final destination. I like it as fan -the competition is good and we have a bit of a rivalry with Liberty since we joined. So why not Bucknell or Colgate someday ? If Fordham leaves the PL has six football programs. Thats five conference games and six non-conference games. That is tough to schedule and I could see a D2 team on many a program for a home game. The down side for a PL team is no AI and not many IVY games. That could be a deal breaker for any PL AD or fan.

sorry, clarification: PL approves scholarships then expands south.

[Franks Tanks]

I simply don't understand where you base you comments off of Sader. HC was pretty much the dregs of "big time" college football before they joined the PL in the mid 80's. You guys were playing a watered down schedule and losing a lot more than you were winning. Holy Cross simply had no business playing FBS football in the modern era of college football, post 50's/60's.

As for basketball, HC hoops made the tourney a whopping 8 times before joining the PL and 5 times since. HC has not won a tournmant game since 1953. My guess is that's the PL fault too?

I'll grant you HC has a little bit of athletic sucess from a bye gone era. However, you guys became irrelevant nationally long before you joined the PL.

I think they were ranked in the top 25 in Hoops at one point in the late 70's. Pretty much their last taste of the national spotlight.

Then again Bucknell proved a PL team can also be ranked in the top 25.