Patriot League recruiting - Georgetown

[carney2]

GEORGETOWN = 76

The Hoyas are number one! The Hoyas are number one!

Wait. Hold the enthusiasm. We've been here before. It was only three short years ago that Georgetown last topped the Patsy Ratings. But, you say, despite a modest show of life last season (2 Patriot League victories, 4 total), the blue and gray (yuk!) continue as a national symbol of football ineptitude. How can that be? A few things come immediately to mind:

- The Patsy Ratings are seriously flawed. That isn't an opinion. It's a fact.
- That 2008 recruiting class was top heavy with QBs. There were 7. Seven! Many of them were highly regarded and added an inordinate number of Patsy Points to the total. That 2008 group, in fact, caused changes in the Patsy Ratings rules, changes that, as we shall see below, this year actually benefit the Hoyas.
- Although Coach Kelly and staff appear reasonably adept at bringing recruits in the door, they seem to have a problem closing the door behind them. Cutting to the Cliff Notes explanation, the Hoyas have a retention problem. The Committee has no idea why this is so and eagerly awaits comments from our good friend and essayist on all things Hoya, DFW Hoya, to give us a clue. In any event, promising freshmen rarely become contributing juniors and seniors in DC.

Ignoring retention and other day to day operating and budgetary issues that may be very real at Georgetown but have no bearing on the rating of a recruiting class, The Committee confesses that it is impressed with these baby Hoyas. They probably are the best Patriot League recruiting class of 2011 and certainly deserve to be breathing the same top of the pile air as the play for pay kids at Fordham.

THE GOOD
- Quality! As a group, these kids are bringing some decent recruiting credentials to DC's high rent district. Check the Quality section below for details.
- For years – make that for as long as anyone on The Committee can remember – the Hoyas have been weak and noncompetitive in the trenches. It's as if Kelly has suddenly had an epiphany. You combine last year's down linemen recruits with this year's, and the Hoyas may be on the verge of building a formidable wall on both sides of the ball. In the Patriot League it helps to have a Dominic Randolph or a Nate Eachus, but a solid bunch up front will almost always guarantee that you will be in the hunt. That concept appears to have finally taken hold in Georgetown. Since there will be no discussion of linemen below, The Committee is taking this opportunity to applaud this portion of the recruiting class. There are 5 OL, two of them rated, and four classed as 270+ jumbos. On the defensive side there are 7 DL recruits, three rated, two 2-stars (one of these at 300 lbs.!), only two in the 250+ jumbo class, but only one with truly questionable size.
- Timing! In a year when Patriot League recruiting in general appears to be mediocre, the Hoyas have gone in the other direction. That should bode well for getting the “doormat” tag removed in the not too distant future.
- 30 recruits is a nice number, particularly with the retention problem yet to be resolved.
- Georgetown always casts a wide recruiting net. No exception this year. In fact, two of the recruits are from that hotbed of college football recruiting, Scotland. Neither of these kids are rated and it will be interesting to see if they can contribute over the years.

THE BAD
- The Committee is not above picking a little nit, so it observes that this recruiting class is a little light in “quality” at the skill positions.

QUALITY = 37: 50% of the recruits are rated. There are five 2-stars, two of them confirmed. In case you haven't been keeping track, 5 is a large number of 2-star recruits for a Patriot League school.

CLASS SIZE = 6: 30 recruits.

DISTRIBUTION = 7: No K. You are reminded yet again that TE is no longer considered in Distribution.

SPEED = 8: The usual disclaimer – not much information and The Committee probably left a lot of points on the table here.

TRIGGER = 0: One QB recruit, not rated.

JUMBO = 6: As noted above, 4 of the OL and 2 of the DL recruits qualify as jumbos.

NEEDS = 9 (of 12):
RB = 3 (of 5): The Committee should probably be more impressed here than it is. There are only two recruits, and that may not be good for a position where crutches are every bit as much a part of the uniform as shoulder pads. On the other hand, one of the recruits is an unconfirmed 2-star who may be exactly what is needed to maneuver behind all these linemen.
DB = 3 (of 4): Five DB recruits, but only one rated. The Committee likes the quantity, but needs to see more quality to award all 4 Needs points.
LB = 3 (of 3): Five recruits, two rated, one a confirmed 2-star who might be the best LB recruit in the Patriot League this year. A solid group with some decent size.

COMMITTEE ADJUSTMENTS = Plus 3
The Committee just likes this recruiting class. The most impressive thing is the appearance that Georgetown football is about to take a big leap forward. They seem to be doing something about their situation.

It should be noted that the biggest change to the Patsy Ratings rules to come out of that 2008 fiasco where Georgetown piled up the points for all those QBs was the addition of this Committee Adjustments section. You will note that with a Plus 3, the Hoyas are huge beneficiaries this year. It may be excessive, but if you check, it doesn't affect the final order of finish. Besides, The Committee likes this recruiting class. Have we mentioned that?

Now, for that retention thing...

THE RATINGS RACE, final version:

76 Georgetown
71 Fordham
60 Holy Cross
57 Colgate
54 Lafayette
50 Bucknell
43 Lehigh

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wow. I'm speechless.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Wow. I'm speechless.

As am i. xchinscratchx

[DFW HOYA]

- Although Coach Kelly and staff appear reasonably adept at bringing recruits in the door, they seem to have a problem closing the door behind them. Cutting to the Cliff Notes explanation, the Hoyas have a retention problem. The Committee has no idea why this is so and eagerly awaits comments from our good friend and essayist on all things Hoya, DFW Hoya, to give us a clue. In any event, promising freshmen rarely become contributing juniors and seniors in DC.

Thirty frshman sounds like a good number, until you realize that the total number of upperclassmen in 2011 will be no more than 32. Georgetown will have up to 67 freshmen and sophomores in August.

Four years ago, the Georgetown class of 2012 stood tall over the PL recruiting lists. That spring, 29 players (and aforementioned seven QB's) committed to Georgetown. In spring practice, only 15 are still there, and of those, only four are incumbent full time starters (all on defense), and two are platoon starters on offense. A couple more might earn back a starting position. What happened?

Attrition in the Kelly era is a by-product of two factors: 1) losing and 2) financial aid. Kelly enters season number six with nine wins total (3 in the PL) and I challenge you to find many...or any I-AA program that would be as patient. After a while, some players simply lose heart. But more to the point, it's the financial aid formula that is at work here, and here are three examples:

1. Team "F" offer what amounts to full merit aid for football players. A player that leaves the team must forfeit that grant the following school year, and would stay on the team despite no chance at the two deep. Otherwise, the cost of education that would be incurred if he quits does not permit him to stay in school.

2. Team "L" converts the recruit's need to a grant. A player that leaves the team must also forfeit that aid the following season, and also wants to stay to avoid taking out loans to cover the difference.

3. Team "G" has very few buyout packages, with very small amounts vis a vis teams F or L, and many players have the same financial aid package from the school they would have regardless of football. A player that leaves the team doesn't have to leave school because they can qualify for much the same aid formula they had with football. In this scenario, there is little or no financial downside for leaving the team.

In Georgetown's case, there were 14 juniors that did not make it to spring practice--11 are enrolled, three already transferred (one to UNH, one to a junior college, and I'm not sure on the third). Some left the team after one year, some after two, some this past season. Bottom line, it's not the way to build a program if you've got 4-6 starters after four years.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With Team "G" and all need-based aid, you can also have the following conversation, too:

"Johnny, after the financial aid office reviewed the paperwork you filed with us this year - and the tax records which showed the purchase of a new car, thanks to your mom's promotion - the office decided that you can now afford to contribute an extra $25,000 to your college education this year. Johnny, there's nothing we can do - either find a way to get the $25,000 dollars, or you'll have to transfer."

No wonder some "G" kids transfer to UNH or a JuCo - they can have their education paid for.

[Go...gate]

Thirty frshman sounds like a good number, until you realize that the total number of upperclassmen in 2011 will be no more than 32. Georgetown will have up to 67 freshmen and sophomores in August.

Four years ago, the Georgetown class of 2012 stood tall over the PL recruiting lists. That spring, 29 players (and aforementioned seven QB's) committed to Georgetown. In spring practice, only 15 are still there, and of those, only four are incumbent full time starters (all on defense), and two are platoon starters on offense. A couple more might earn back a starting position. What happened?

Attrition in the Kelly era is a by-product of two factors: 1) losing and 2) financial aid. Kelly enters season number six with nine wins total (3 in the PL) and I challenge you to find many...or any I-AA program that would be as patient. After a while, some players simply lose heart. But more to the point, it's the financial aid formula that is at work here, and here are three examples:

1. Team "F" offer what amounts to full merit aid for football players. A player that leaves the team must forfeit that grant the following school year, and would stay on the team despite no chance at the two deep. Otherwise, the cost of education that would be incurred if he quits does not permit him to stay in school.

2. Team "L" converts the recruit's need to a grant. A player that leaves the team must also forfeit that aid the following season, and also wants to stay to avoid taking out loans to cover the difference.

3. Team "G" has very few buyout packages, with very small amounts vis a vis teams F or L, and many players have the same financial aid package from the school they would have regardless of football. A player that leaves the team doesn't have to leave school because they can qualify for much the same aid formula they had with football. In this scenario, there is little or no financial downside for leaving the team.

In Georgetown's case, there were 14 juniors that did not make it to spring practice--11 are enrolled, three already transferred (one to UNH, one to a junior college, and I'm not sure on the third). Some left the team after one year, some after two, some this past season. Bottom line, it's not the way to build a program if you've got 4-6 starters after four years.

And which team "L" would this be? The Maroon one, or the Brown one? ; )

[carney2]

Not an unusual situation, but I'm confused. DFW, you seem to be saying (and keeping with that marvelous letter code that can only be deciphered by PL people):

1. At the F school where the football team has gone on the payroll, the rule is "You must play to collect your pay." No argument there. They are expected/required to bust their humps as well as their clavicles for good ol' FU.

but

2. You seem to be distinguishing between need based aid at the G school vs. that at B, C, H, L or L. I cannot determine if you are saying that the G school does some sort of a bait and switch, with, for instance, $40,000 in aid being offered to an incoming DB that is somehow reduced to $10,000 by his junior year, or are you saying that G school aid is somehow gentler and kinder than aid at the other lettered need based institutions in that a footballer finds it easier to give up his athletic pursuits while retaining his aid package.

The question is: How is need based aid at the G school different from financial aid at the other need based letter institutions in the Patriot League?

[DFW HOYA]

2. You seem to be distinguishing between need based aid at the G school vs. that at B, C, H, L or L. I cannot determine if you are saying that the G school does ome sort of a bait and switch, with, for instance, $40,000 in aid being offered to an incoming DB that is somehow reduced to $10,000 by his junior year, or are you saying that G school aid is somehow gentler and kinder than aid at the other lettered need based institutions in that a footballer finds it easier to give up his athletic pursuits while retaining his aid package. The question is: How is need based aid at the G school different from financial aid at the other need based letter institutions in the Patriot League?

No, Georgetown is 100% full need, so if he needed $40K, he'll get $40K, not $10K. What I was trying to say was that because Georgetown offers far fewer equivalencies, a recruit's financial aid formula (with loans and work-study) figures to be closer to that which the recruit is going to get regardless of whether he was playing, so a decision not to play may not give up much in return.

[RichH2]

Not much financial penalty for GU kid to quit is ,I think the Point. At "L" , kid would still qualify for need aid but aid now may include more loan than grant $$. At"F" merit aid will be cancelled if kid qits team. Doubt that is sole reason for a high rate of attrition. Regardless, nice to see Hoya get a good class and maybe more will stick around for 4 yrs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No, Georgetown is 100% full need, so if he needed $40K, he'll get $40K, not $10K. What I was trying to say was that because Georgetown offers far fewer equivalencies, a recruit's financial aid formula (with loans and work-study) figures to be closer to that which the recruit is going to get regardless of whether he was playing, so a decision not to play may not give up much in return.

True. But the aid formula is calculated year to year, so he could qualify for loans and work study one year, and the next no longer qualify for as many. Incidentally, this is not only true at "G" - every single one of the rest of the lettered schools not named "F" also have the same issues. Almost as importantly, though, "IB", "ICor", "ICol", and some other "I" schools also share the same problems. (But not H-Y-P.)

[carney2]

I have never been the sharpest knife in any drawer I have occupied, so the fact that I am still confused should astonish no one. My question - not necessarily to DFW, but to all occupants of this drawer - is still "How does G financial aid differ from that at B, C, H, L or L?" My simplistic (simple minded?) interpretation is that need-based aid is need-based aid. "Equivalencies" are merely labels or interpretations of need-based aid that exist to make comparisons to scholarships. They are not separate entities in and of themselves. For instance, if attendance at H or C or L costs $60,000 and twins Donnie and Diane both attend, receiving identical need-based awards of $30,000, Diane's would be considered "financial aid," but Donnie's might be considered a "50% equivalency" because he is a running back.

I seem to have talked myself into a box here. My problematic assumption seems to be

Need-based financial aid to a football player = Equivalency

when that may not be the case. Perhaps I need instruction on the finer points of the definition of "equivalency." Is it possible for a football player to receive aid that is not considered an "equivalency?"

[Franks Tanks]

Not much financial penalty for GU kid to quit is ,I think the Point. At "L" , kid would still qualify for need aid but aid now may include more loan than grant $$. At"F" merit aid will be cancelled if kid qits team. Doubt that is sole reason for a high rate of attrition. Regardless, nice to see Hoya get a good class and maybe more will stick around for 4 yrs.


Right. At an Ivy, and apparently Georgetown, all students get aid to meet full need based on the FAFSA form. John gets 20k per year worth of aid from Georgetown whether he plays football or not.

At other Patriot league schools we give need based athletic aid. The student-athlete still fills out a FAFSA form to show need, but the amount of aid given to football players seems to be determined by a different method. Bottom line is that recruited football players get more aid than they would be given as a regular student, and I believe that is how we arrive at scholarship equivalencies. All I know is that in my day when a player quit their aid package would be reduced by an average of 33-50%. It was clear they recieved extra aid for participating in a sport.

[Model Citizen]

Is it possible for a football player to receive aid that is not considered an "equivalency?"

Yes. In fact, the traditional definition of need-based aid is aid based on need. Not being a football player with financial need...just need. Aid reserved for players, on the other hand, is counted toward the equivalency limit.

Similarly, "merit aid" can be solely based on academics (an "academic scholarship") or it can be given for a special skill, e.g. playing the piano...or football.

[LBPop]

Let me offer a little additional information from another member with the 'G' helmet avatar. While Georgetown will offer aid based on the same need figures as computed by FAFSA, the issue is how much of it is in the form of loans and how much the football program can "buy out". While most of the PL schools are expensive, I would venture that Georgetown is still at the top. Yet Georgetown has fewer dollars to buy out the loans. Even in the mid 2000's I saw the following scenario play out a few times. The recruit gets some help from the school and Mom & Dad decide to bite the bullet and tell him it's OK for him to go to Georgetown. He's thrilled and arrives at Hilltop ready to go. Then after the aid is applied Mom & Dad get the bill--now reality hits hard. At the same time the recruit finds himself playing with scout team or the 3's and becomes depressed. Mom & Dad ask why they should kill themselves to keep their son in an unhappy situation. So he transfers to a school they can afford and, perhaps, where he can play.

But there's more that DFW won't say. Many of these kids leave due to the environment. There's the ever present reality of horrible facilities. Many of these kids played in better stadiums in high school and have better scoreboards on their foosball tables at home. After the glow of "I'm going to bleepin' Georgetown" wears off they begin to cling to the "two year promise". That's the one that tells them they will have a new stadium before they are juniors. After those two years are gone and reality hits, they are stuck and have to make a decision. There's another aspect of the "environment" and that is the one created by the staff. I do not mean to lump the entire staff into this description--that would be inaccurate. But frequently unless a player is one of the "chosen" or has extraordinary talent, he can find himself on the scout team in a heartbeat. It has happened to captains and it has happened to players wearing #35 (perhaps the highest honor a Hoya football player can receive). I don't think I have to explain what that can do to an individual or a team to see a respected player/senior/leader treated that way. Some leave quickly...some leave a little later...some stick it out to prove they are the better men.

Of course I have generalized and there is always risk in that. But there are far too many examples that support this generalization to dismiss it. All schools experience attrition, but I think this Georgetown program often "earns" it.

[Model Citizen]

Hypothetical--

Georgetown's annual tuition, fees, room, board, books= $52,700.

Student/Family Contribution: $19,000
Need-Based Gift Aid: $29,000
Student Loan (bought out by athletic department): $4,700 ***


*** athletic buyout makes this athletic aid. The NCAA will count this as approximately one-tenth of an equivalency.

[Doc QB]

My question - not necessarily to DFW, but to all occupants of this drawer - is still "How does G financial aid differ from that at B, C, H, L or L?"

It is actually very simple. Everyone fills out the FAFSA form. The football coach has a number of equivalencies in scholarship money from the athletic department that is ENTIRELY SEPARATE from the school's general population aid pool. If the athlete has 100% need, he can get 100% from the football coach and athletic department's aid. If he qualifies for a dollar, he can get that dollar. It is an athletic scholarship, make no mistake, because if he quits, he loses that athletic department aid, goes into the school's general population aid.....and WHAM! It is now a combination of loans, work study, maybe some grant money.

That is not to say some athletes arrive to campus with aid from the same pool as the general population...there is not enough equivalency aid for every football player to get some, and the coach may not give them any. That led to some specualtion when I was at Lehigh that the coach only played people he was paying, and the kids, who may have been better but not on money, played behind the kids he had invested in.

Georgetown's problem, as described directly from the former strenght coach, head coach, and a player/later asst coach is that Gtown offers a few football grants...about 15 total, and they are about 5 grand each. No way to be competitive with that. Not when Colgate and Lehigh offer up to 57 full rides to be doled out among a roster of 90 however they can.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown's problem, as described directly from the former strenght coach, head coach, and a player/later asst coach is that Gtown offers a few football grants...about 15 total, and they are about 5 grand each. No way to be competitive with that. Not when Colgate and Lehigh offer up to 57 full rides to be doled out among a roster of 90 however they can.

That would put Colgate and Lehigh at 57 equivalencies and Georgetown at less than two?

[carney2]

It is actually very simple. Everyone fills out the FAFSA form. The football coach has a number of equivalencies in scholarship money from the athletic department that is ENTIRELY SEPARATE from the school's general population aid pool. If the athlete has 100% need, he can get 100% from the football coach and athletic department's aid. If he qualifies for a dollar, he can get that dollar. It is an athletic scholarship, make no mistake, because if he quits, he loses that athletic department aid, goes into the school's general population aid.....and WHAM! It is now a combination of loans, work study, maybe some grant money.

That is not to say some athletes arrive to campus with aid from the same pool as the general population...there is not enough equivalency aid for every football player to get some, and the coach may not give them any. That led to some specualtion when I was at Lehigh that the coach only played people he was paying, and the kids, who may have been better but not on money, played behind the kids he had invested in.

Georgetown's problem, as described directly from the former strenght coach, head coach, and a player/later asst coach is that Gtown offers a few football grants...about 15 total, and they are about 5 grand each. No way to be competitive with that. Not when Colgate and Lehigh offer up to 57 full rides to be doled out among a roster of 90 however they can.

Thanks, Doc. Best explanation I've heard so far. The following questions (even if they have no question marks) are intended to expand my comprehension:

Even though these are scholarship equivalents, they are not scholarships. The head coach, for instance, does not have the authority to offer a full ride to the son of a Fortune 500 president.

The recipient must still pass through the same admissions and financial aid filters as the general student population.

A coach has the option to supplement general financial aid granted by the admissions/financial aid people, and does not have to start at zero with every athlete-applicant.

Generally, the shenanigans and "deals" are in the nature of replacing loans and work-study with grants, although the coaches have some limited authority to "outbid" another school.

Ia any of this on track?

[Go...gate]

That would put Colgate and Lehigh at 57 equivalencies and Georgetown at less than two?

Ouch.

[Doc QB]

:Even though these are scholarship equivalents, they are not scholarships. The head coach, for instance, does not have the authority to offer a full ride to the son of a Fortune 500 president.

The recipient must still pass through the same admissions and financial aid filters as the general student population.

A coach has the option to supplement general financial aid granted by the admissions/financial aid people, and does not have to start at zero with every athlete-applicant.

Generally, the shenanigans and "deals" are in the nature of replacing loans and work-study with grants, although the coaches have some limited authority to "outbid" another school.

Ia any of this on track?

All on track. A family has a defined need. The coach can put a kid on the athletic department's dime for any portion of it, but not ABOVE the need. When Lehigh had a good run in late 90's, Higgins went after a fair number of kids who were CAA types, but knew which family's had less in the way of household income, and he pursued those kids HARD. A near full ride to LU for families with lower incomes compared to that CAA full, unrestricted scholly...we got a few guys that were game changers.

And yes, DFW, that does put G'town at near two...they are run financially not much different than a Division 3 school in that respect for football. So, facilities and coaching aside, it is really pretty obvious why the have and continue to struggle. It is no secret.

[RichH2]

Coen and Lembo do recruit basically the same way. Kevin , bottom line, an excellent recruiter and an even better closer. Every year we get a few CAA kids and some Ivy kids and very occasionally an FBS type. Also, just to clarify aid at LU . Coach can set amt up to need for each recruit. Kid may also , in admittedly rare cases, get additional funds from general scholarship pool up to demonstrated need. IE coach has 20,000 left he can award but family shows need for 40,000. Rest can be furnished but as part of student wide aid. A package of loans ,grants and work. Need is re assessed every year , up and down. The most onerous aspect of eed aid to my mind and surely a turn off for parents trying to afford an education. Full schollie at Nova or a shfting amt at LU at less than the full bill

[Model Citizen]

GEORGETOWN TO THE PIONEER LEAGUE!

Who's with me?!?
http://www.getreligion.org/wp-content/photos/2008/12/belushi3.jpg

AYYYEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Model Citizen]

Seriously, if each GU player received five grand from the athletic department...and that is approximately the average loan for a GU student...then I don't see (even the max of 85 counters) exceeding 10 equivalencies. False issue?

[DFW HOYA]

Some comparisons:

Colgate's football budget is approx. $4.5 million. Frank Tavani claimed in April that the Red Raiders are at 62 equivalencies; let's call it 60 for this argument.

Lafayette is at 4.1 million, 90% of Colgate's budget. That would give them 54 (90% of 60); in fact, the school paper said it's closer to 52.

Bucknell is two-thirds the budget of Colgate ($3M). That's roughly 40 equivalencies.

Georgetown is one-third of Colgate's budget and half that of Bucknell ($1.5M). One-third of 60 is not two. The final number may not be 20, but it probably isn't two. Two equivalencies is only $25,000 per recruiting class, or that only five of 30 incoming freshman got loans bought out and nothing more; conversely, 25 of the 30 would get nothing. Seems unlikely.

[Fordham]

where does Merit Aid fit into all of this? I've been told for years that certain PL schools have used "Merit Aid" as a way around the need-based aid issue. Just curious if anyone knows

[Go...gate]

Fordham, you may be referring to special "Merit" scholarships given by the schools, such as those given to Lafayette's Marquis Scholars or Colgate's Alumni Memorial Scholarship program. Some of these do go to athletes.

[Fordham]

Thanks for clarifying, gate. Yes, that's what I was referring to.

[carney2]

Fordham, you may be referring to special "Merit" scholarships given by the schools, such as those given to Lafayette's Marquis Scholars or Colgate's Alumni Memorial Scholarship program. Some of these do go to athletes.

Yes. You are talking about special "merit" scholarships (usually based on superior academic accomplishments and potential) that just happen to go to a football player. (And it is happenstance. There is little to no manipulation here by the athletic department to sneak a freebie through another door. It may be welcome, but it isn't planned, and it isn't an every year occurrence.) Lafayette QB Brad Maurer who had some success in the middle of this past decade, for instance, was, I believe, a Marquis Scholar and was, for the most part, not playing on the athletic department's dime.

[Franks Tanks]

I believe Marquis Scholars get a max of $12,500, at least they did a few years ago. It is academic merit aid, and a handful of football players may be Marquis or Trustee scholars every year.

[Pard4Life]

Yes Maurer was a Marquis scholar. He probably never would have came to Lafayette without it. I recall the program announced him as a late addition, probably after his award cleared. Marquis scholarships now award a minimum of $16k and the Trustee scholarship was eliminated.

[Pard4Life]

At Lafayette, an athlete with demonstrated need will receive grants up until the threeshold where the family can pay. A regular student would recieve loans, work study. An athlete quitting would be placed back into the regular student pool.

[RichH2]

The gap between 2 equivalencies and 60. Can it be bridged? Or perhaps , more to the point will anyone make the effort to do so.? The taffy pull between Foedham and Hoyas continues for another seaon at least. Anyone come out a winner? Will CAA split? Why are the Yanks paying the hiiting coach? All issues for our summer enjoyment

[ngineer]

Georgetown's major problem is retention and size. While they recruit some excellent athletes, by and large, they have not been very big, and as such get worn down by the end of a game combined with insufficient depth to give guys a break. Lembo said a long time ago that G'town was sleeping monster. Fortunately for the rest of us, the administration of the program has contined to feed the 'monster' sleeping pills. If they every figure out the no-doz we're in trouble.

[carney2]

All of this has been entertaining and enlightening, but, as usual in a Patriot League thread, we have taken our eyes off the rabbit. This is about Georgetown recruiting. This is a very good recruiting class. It is a little deficient at the skill positions, but the size problem that ngineer mentions in the previous post is quite possibly on the verge of being solved. And, don't overlook last year's recruits which also added some heft to the roster. What is really impressive is that the size comes in quantity and with a strong hint of quality. The Hoyas are, for the first time in my memory, truly poised to break out of their malaise.

The retention problem is undoubtedly a combination of many things including facilities and the low number of equivalencies which makes it easier at Georgetown to leave the football program without taking a big hit in financial aid. Still, these kids are football players. They are 18 and 19 year olds who have one thing in common - football is THE biggest thing in their lives. Something amazing appears to be going on at Georgetown to knock that out of them. I am certainly not close to the situation, but the obvious answer to what that might be is Coach Kelly. He is apparently not fostering an environment where football is fun, rewarding and a source of pride. If he can't change, he needs to be terminated. This group gives him a chance to succeed. If he can't get it done with this group of recruits, he shouldn't be given any more chances. The clock should be ticking in DC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Georgetown went out and got a great recruiting class, most likely due to three important factors.

1) This group learned how to win some games last year, and were in the hunt for the PL championship in November for the first time ever. If you put aside the history of the Hoyas time in the PL for a moment, there's zero, and I mean zero, reason to believe they cannot compete for the championship again this year. They were a couple halves away from being PL champions, let's not forget.

Being on the upswing of a turnaround attracts recruits. This is where Georgetown is.

2) For whatever reason, grant-in-aid money is now just starting to trickle into the Hoyas. No, it's not at the same levels as Colgate, but it's making a difference. The last two classes are not comprised simply of need-based aid kids. Any objective look would tell you this.

3) All the schools of the Patriot League probably also benefited from the FCS playoff win last year. 2003 might as well have been 1903 to most of the kids on the recruiting trail today, but the win against UNI shows that the PL is a league that could be poised to do big things again.

These three things, I think, really contribute to the Hoyas' success in recruiting. And it's probable to me that as long as the Hoyas get off their behinds and do something about MSF, they, yes, can still be the sleeping giant that Pete Lembo predicted.

Now, it's up to coach Kelly to sustain last year's season and build off of it. But his retention of players, I think, is bound to improve. After all, nothing helps retention more than winning.

[CFBfan]

All of this has been entertaining and enlightening, but, as usual in a Patriot League thread, we have taken our eyes off the rabbit. This is about Georgetown recruiting. This is a very good recruiting class. It is a little deficient at the skill positions, but the size problem that ngineer mentions in the previous post is quite possibly on the verge of being solved. And, don't overlook last year's recruits which also added some heft to the roster. What is really impressive is that the size comes in quantity and with a strong hint of quality. The Hoyas are, for the first time in my memory, truly poised to break out of their malaise.

The retention problem is undoubtedly a combination of many things including facilities and the low number of equivalencies which makes it easier at Georgetown to leave the football program without taking a big hit in financial aid. Still, these kids are football players. They are 18 and 19 year olds who have one thing in common - football is THE biggest thing in their lives. Something amazing appears to be going on at Georgetown to knock that out of them. I am certainly not close to the situation, but the obvious answer to what that might be is Coach Kelly. He is apparently not fostering an environment where football is fun, rewarding and a source of pride. If he can't change, he needs to be terminated. This group gives him a chance to succeed. If he can't get it done with this group of recruits, he shouldn't be given any more chances. The clock should be ticking in DC.

Carney you hit the nail on the head with Kelly