POTENTIAL CONCEPT FOR 150TH LEHIGH-LAFAYETTE GAME!!

[ngineer]

In November, 2014, Lehigh and Lafayette will meet for their 150th Game of the most played collegiate football series in the country. Discussions and inquiries are being undertaken to see if the two schools would be interested in playing the Game at a neutral site that could accomodate 40-50,000 people. Possible sites are Rutgers, Meadowlands, Lincoln Financial and Franklin Field. Interest in national TV via ESPN is being explored. With advance notice to alumni of both schools and even publicity to those with a true interest in collegiate football, the Game could draw such crowd.
'Things' are very preliminary at this point with many hoops and decisions to occur, but the fact that this is being explored is cool.xcoolx

[DFW HOYA]

Great to hear! Time is of the essence if Philadelphia is an option (Temple is probably working on its 2014 schedule already while Penn traditionally plays at Cornell on the third week of November).

2014 is also the 50th anniversary of Georgetown's return to football after a 13 year absence from 1951-63. It can't play the school it played in that game (NYU) but I would certainly like to see a big effort made. Maybe even in a new place to play...

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2011/04/nothing-to-see-here.html

[Go...gate]

If there is discussion about renting out a venue, Rutgers Stadium is certainly a great place to watch a football game, but why not Yankee Stadium? Steinbrenner always loved those old college football rivalries and it doesn't get any more traditional than LC-LU. The cost would be greater but it is something all participants and spectators will remember the rest of their lives.

The other option is to do what Rutgers and Princeton did for the Football Centennial game in 1969 and add temporary stands at Goodman Stadium. I still remember the "old" Rutgers Stadium at the 1969 game. What an atmosphere, and ABC-TV televised the game nationally.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What about CBP Park? It is empty right before Thanksgiving.

[RichH2]

I recall the atmosphere and crowd at the 100th game. We could probably add enuf seating to bring Goodman up to 20,000 or so but a neutral site would be novel and assuming teams are decent we could probably get a crowd well in excess . For me Rutgers would be ideal, altho truth be told I will travel anywhere for that game. I am glad to see some imaginative planning bt Joe.

[ngineer]

Actually, you could probably expand Goodman with good temporary seats to 30,000 if you enclose the entire horseshoe with seating on the concourse and endzone seating under the scoreboard. But, I agree that a neutral site already designed with enough good permenant seats would be the best. Yankee Stadium and CBP are also options, but I don't think the seating/line of vision would be very good. I hate football games in baseball parks with a good section of the stadium too far away from the action.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Princeton or Franklin Field is probably the best option, as they can accommodate 30,000+ fans (I think). Princeton's stadium, IMO, is much nicer, so if that could be used that would be better.

[TheValleyRaider]

I would think the Linc or the Meadowlands would be the most ideal, rather than using another school's stadium. Never liked the idea of using another school's place, but that's just me. I wonder if they would consider the Ravens' stadium in Baltimore as well

Regardless, very very cool if this can go through xnodx xthumbsupx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

ESPN Gameday better be there for the 150th!

I'm not sure I agree with the neutral site idea. These are two Lehigh Valley schools and that's where the game should be played imo. No matter what, tickets for the 150th should be split evenly.

I'm guessing the most Fisher can hold is about 20k? Goodman would probably be in the 25-30k range. Even with the potential for more fans to attend i think it would be tough to convince Lafayette to give up the game. They probably wouldn't go for a 2 and 2 deal either.

[TheValleyRaider]

ESPN Gameday better be there for the 150th!

I'm not sure I agree with the neutral site idea. These are two Lehigh Valley schools and that's where the game should be played imo. No matter what, tickets for the 150th should be split evenly.

I'm guessing the most Fisher can hold is about 20k? Goodman would probably be in the 25-30k range. Even with the potential for more fans to attend i think it would be tough to convince Lafayette to give up the game. They probably wouldn't go for a 2 and 2 deal either.

I would assume Lafayette would get the larger cut of whatever revenue the game generates for giving up the home game. Unless the PL is willing to switch schedules to allow them to host again in 2015 and then proceed from there

[DFW HOYA]

I would assume Lafayette would get the larger cut of whatever revenue the game generates for giving up the home game. Unless the PL is willing to switch schedules to allow them to host again in 2015 and then proceed from there

The PL will pretty much let them do anything they choose. It's the only football rivalry endorsed by the league.

[ngineer]

I'm sure the schedule can be adjusted so that Lafayette would not miss out on 'their turn'. That should not be an issue. Lafayette might get close to 20K with temporary seats, but parking would be a monster problem. Many years ago, the two teams met each other in, of all places, Wilkes-Barre, PA before a huge crowd, it has been reported. The usual post game riot deterred any future invitations to return.xrotatehxxnodxxsmiley_wix

[Pard4Life]

No, the game stays in Easton. Lehigh gets 175. We get 200. We played in 1891 in Wilkes Barre before 3,000. No way at Rutgers - they snubbed both of us. Penn has an elitist attitude - no to Franklin. The game is a Lehigh Valley institution and the alumni bases are not large enough to financially support a game in the cities. The Yankees would rather have Army or Rutgers. We could expect an atmosphere and attendance similar to a bowl game in nowheresville featuring two distant schools.

[Pard4Life]

Plus, I have a feeling this is just bar talk amongst the Lehigh crowd. This would require big picture thinking and ambition, something lacking instituionally at both places.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Plus, I have a feeling this is just bar talk amongst the Lehigh crowd. This would require big picture thinking and ambition, something lacking instituionally at both places.

Interesting observation.

[LUHawker]

Wouldn't it be grand if before the 150th, Lehigh and Lafayette met in the post-season? That woulds of course, make the 150th be on track to be played at Goodman. No offense intended (this time :)) ) to the Pards, but Goodman is far more condusive to hosting a larger crowd game than Fisher. More parking, more capacity, more concessions, more toilets, easier access, etc.) No we don't have the jumbo tron or lights, but that could be rectified as well.

It needs to be played in the Lehigh Valley.

[Neighbor2]

LUHawker is right. The game must be held in the Lehigh Valley. You want to do everything to ensure a sell-out, scalping kind of situation. Moving it out of the area will be a disaster. Other areas don't have the respect for the history of the rivalry. The curious will just watch it on TV rather than spend money on the game. Right now, students have a hard time attending in good number ON campus, let along 50-100 miles away.

A Philadelphia venue won't work for other reasons. The area is notorious for not supporting college football. The Penn State appearances and Army/Navy cannot be used in comparison. Plus, Philadelphia is so heavily unionized, you almost need to pay for one staff person to guard each trash can.
Stadium rental, advertising and other expenses will be well over $150K. Expenses for fans also much greater.

Not to forget the increased interest in tailgating that year. Forget Franklin Fieldand, have to say, Lafayette comes up a little short, too. Goodman would be ideal with added seating. A crowd of 25,000 is possible there. A new video scoreboard is LONG overdue at Goodman. This would be a great reason to purchase one.

[carney2]

How about:

Early start.
1st half at Badman.
2nd half at Fisher (there are lights).
Separate admissions for each site.

Sounds about as doable as any of the other cockamamie suggestions.

[Sader87]

Princeton sounds right.....Fr Brooks predicted 30,000+ for games against (or at) Old Nassau many moons ago...very prescient man in that regard.

[Pard4Life]

Right the only way the rotation gets disrupted is a Lafayette-Lehigh playoff game. We came close in 2004, when both made it. The odds of this happening are infintismal. Or maybe some cataclysm.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Moving it out of the area will be a disaster. Other areas don't have the respect for the history of the rivalry. The curious will just watch it on TV rather than spend money on the game. Right now, students have a hard time attending in good number ON campus, let along 50-100 miles away.

Not for Lehigh/Lafayette they don't.

You guys have to remember, this isn't about the diehards that would go to Lehigh/Lafayette even if it were played in Saskatchewan. It's about exposing Lehigh/Lafayette craziness to a brand new group of people - young folks who haven't heard of The Rivalry, and (yes) the casual fan that doesn't know Lafayette from Louisiana-Lafayette. Wherever the 150th is played, it will be a sellout, and it's something the players will remember the rest of their lives. If there's an opportunity to play that game in a huge stadium, 30000+ fans, why not take it? What's the concern, it won't sell out?

[Sader87]

No one outside of the Lehigh Valley cares...do you really think a non Lehigh or Lafayette alum in the NYC or Philly area is going to say to his wife and kids (or his friends): "Hey!!! Who's up for the Lehigh-Lafayette game??? It's the 150th meeting between these two fine institutions!!!!" The LU-LC game is much closer to Williams-Amherst than Yale-Harvard, never mind Ohio St-Michigan, Auburn-Alabama et. al.....there is next to zero outside interest.

[ngineer]

Actually, you are wrong on that point. I have personally met people, ardent college football fans, who have made special trips to this game just to check it out. I met a bunch of guys in LA about 5 years ago who go to one of the 'big' rivalry games every year: Alabama/Auburn, Michigan/Ohio St., etc., and they had the Lehigh-Lafayette game on their list..indeed, it was the third game they had done on their list and agreed that the intensity of the rivalry was exceeded by no other. Yes, there may be more people at the other venues, but the intensity per capita is unequaled. Yes, there are a bunch of pluses and minuses to be considered and I'm sure that will be done. There are also a good number of alums in the NY/PA/NJ region who haven't been to recent games because of inability to get tickets. This would be a rare opportunity.

[Sader87]

Lehigh-Lafayette (as the PL is currently constituted i.e. no scholarships) will never draw more than 15,000 or so....it's college football in its purest sense, but NO ONE (outside of the Lehigh Valley) cares.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Lehigh-Lafayette (as the PL is currently constituted i.e. no scholarships) will never draw more than 15,000 or so....it's college football in its purest sense, but NO ONE (outside of the Lehigh Valley) cares.

More people care about or at least have an interest in it then you want to believe. I'm pretty active on the espn boards and there's always talk about Lehigh Lafayette during game week. Oklahoma and Texas fans know and respect the rivalry. I know you don't want to hear that but it's true.

I went to the Temple Lafayette bball game two years ago. The game was at Kirby the night before the Lehigh Lafayette game. The Temple students that made the trip started chanting Lets Go Lehigh. I loved it. Temple is far from a jock school so the game must carry weight outside the LV.

[ngineer]

Lehigh-Lafayette (as the PL is currently constituted i.e. no scholarships) will never draw more than 15,000 or so....it's college football in its purest sense, but NO ONE (outside of the Lehigh Valley) cares.

It already sells out at 16,000 with many trying not able to get tickets.

[Franks Tanks]

Lehigh-Lafayette (as the PL is currently constituted i.e. no scholarships) will never draw more than 15,000 or so....it's college football in its purest sense, but NO ONE (outside of the Lehigh Valley) cares.


The game is typically sold out by the middle of September. I would think that more than 15k people would buy tickets to a game if they could buy tickets for the 2 months leading up to the game. I believe that we could realistically draw 25-35K for Lafayette/Lehigh if the game was local. Not because only locals care, but it would be a big event in the area and it would get a lot of exposure.


Overall I think the 150th could be a big deal and the schools should try to take advantage of it. However, a big part of the charm of college football and this game is playing on campus. Moving the game to an alternate location away from the schools may be pretty risky.

[Franks Tanks]

It already sells out at 16,000 with many trying not able to get tickets.

Sader87 is a miserable little man.

Also let me explain bitter Holy Cross fan logic. In 1947 they won the NCAA tournament by beating power house teams like Navy and CCNY. Because of this they should've joined the Big East (it is still a bit unclear if they were officially invited), and should play BC every year in football.

[DFW HOYA]

I think you're both right. Leh/Laf is a big deal within central Pennsylvania and their respective alumni communituies, but if you ask people in Illinois or Texas or California what "The Rivalry" is, it's probably not in the top 20 guesses.

[Franks Tanks]

I think you're both right. Leh/Laf is a big deal within central Pennsylvania and their respective alumni communituies, but if you ask people in Illinois or Texas or California what "The Rivalry" is, it's probably not in the top 20 guesses.

Naturally, but we aren't talking about playing the game in Texas.

Also people in PA don't really care about a rivalry like Texas-Texas A&M or whatever. Like most people, I would watch a game like that if it was on TV and I had nothing else going on, but not something I would plan to catch.

[DFW HOYA]

Also people in PA don't really care about a rivalry like Texas-Texas A&M or whatever. Like most people, I would watch a game like that if it was on TV and I had nothing else going on, but not something I would plan to catch.

Maybe one day Leh/Laf can be seen in Texas on some sort of leaguewide Patriot League FB package. Of course, these are the two schools which have resisted this concept to protect their deals with SE2 and Ch. 69.

[Franks Tanks]

Maybe one day Leh/Laf can be seen in Texas on some sort of leaguewide Patriot League FB package. Of course, these are the two schools which have resisted this concept to protect their deals with SE2 and Ch. 69.

I don't see why some sort of package can't be put together that includes the pre-existing deals of Lafayette and Lehigh. In the days before the Big 10 network, the Penn State games that weren't on ABC or ESPN would get picked up by local affiliates. The national coverage obviously took priority over the local coverage. Lafayette was on ESPN3 a few times this year. I would think the regular crew can cover Lafayette games, and still have a few games a year picked up by other cable systems through some sort of deal.

Lafayette and Lehigh don't make money from their TV deals, but it is great for exposure. As long as we can ensure the current markets are untouched I don't see what the impediement may be.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Maybe one day Leh/Laf can be seen in Texas on some sort of leaguewide Patriot League FB package. Of course, these are the two schools which have resisted this concept to protect their deals with SE2 and Ch. 69.

It can be seen in Texas, either on ESPN3 or Fox College Sports. As mentioned, though, that's through special arrangements with Lafayette and Lehigh respectively.

The resistance of Lehigh and Lafayette to a national PL TV deal is a topic for another thread, but to say that "The Rivalry" can't be seen in Texas is incorrect. It can be seen nationally.

[Neighbor2]

Guys, guys . . .

Right now, Lehigh/Lafayette is scheduled on a big rivalry weekend for most other big programs. Few from those programs will forgo their own big game to attend ours. To attract those people, our event needs to change its date. One significant factor in Lehigh/Lafayette's importance is in being the final game for both, a chance to "right" a "wrong" season.

I would much rather present our rivalry via major network from a packed, 25,000 seat campus setting, not a one-third full temporary, big-time location. The key is to make the 150th the biggest attendance ever. That will be true at a doable 25,000. That number provides 9,000 MORE tickets for those who now have a problem obtaining seats. That's plenty extra.

This really is akin to the prospect of moving Amherst/Williams to a bigger, out-of-town setting like Goodman. I wouldn't want to promote that "classic" here in the Lehigh Valley. Talk about an uphill battle!

I'm a Lehigh fan, but Lafayette's stadium, while a better viewing option, lacks the ability to accommodate a 25,000 person attendance, let alone all the parking and tailgating space that goes with it. Lehigh is the best choice for a "biggest yet" Lehigh/Lafayette.

As for providing our players a chance to appear before a huge, national level crowd, we COULD have that every year if only our league would wake-up and provide full scholarship football.

[carney2]

I'm a Lehigh fan, but Lafayette's stadium, while a better viewing option, lacks the ability to accommodate a 25,000 person attendance, let alone all the parking and tailgating space that goes with it. Lehigh is the best choice for a "biggest yet" Lehigh/Lafayette.

Probably not going to happen. Lehigh is odd and ever it shall be. 2014 is Lafayette's home game and I don't see that changing for the sake of a few thousand extra seats. Actually, both sides should wake up and sell reduced price standing room tickets to the undergrads who always forsake their seats for the thrill of sitting/barfing/passing out on the grassy knolls at each venue.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Guys, guys . . .

Right now, Lehigh/Lafayette is scheduled on a big rivalry weekend for most other big programs. Few from those programs will forgo their own big game to attend ours. To attract those people, our event needs to change its date. One significant factor in Lehigh/Lafayette's importance is in being the final game for both, a chance to "right" a "wrong" season.

I would much rather present our rivalry via major network from a packed, 25,000 seat campus setting, not a one-third full temporary, big-time location. The key is to make the 150th the biggest attendance ever. That will be true at a doable 25,000. That number provides 9,000 MORE tickets for those who now have a problem obtaining seats. That's plenty extra.

Your solution:

Friday, November 21st, 2014: Lehigh vs. Lafayette at Princeton Stadium

ESPN would have no problem televising the game - no competition. It has televised night games there before.

You could play Lehigh vs. Lafayette on Friday night and Dartmouth vs. Princeton on Saturday afternoon or evening - not easy, but it could be done. FieldTurf could handle it.

It seats 27,773 - it would be largest Lehigh/Lafayette crowd in history. Reasonable expectation for a sellout crowd.

Campus setting - Princeton's campus, but a campus setting nonetheless.

Not incredibly far from either Bethehem or Easton.

Room for tailgating - though confining it to the designated areas instead of the town of Princeton might be a challenge.

[Neighbor2]

Princeton is a fine facility. I've been there many times, day and night. But, why go there to accommmodate an additional 2,500 patrons? Lehigh CAN provide 25,000 with minimal temporary bleachers. Lafayette, probably about 20,000.

More importantly, why would ANY Lehigh or Lafayette supporter be content with moving our biggest game to someone else's campus because OUR OWN facilities are not adequate? Not a good message.

Cool discussion, in any event!

[Franks Tanks]

Your solution:

Friday, November 21st, 2014: Lehigh vs. Lafayette at Princeton Stadium

ESPN would have no problem televising the game - no competition. It has televised night games there before.

You could play Lehigh vs. Lafayette on Friday night and Dartmouth vs. Princeton on Saturday afternoon or evening - not easy, but it could be done. FieldTurf could handle it.

It seats 27,773 - it would be largest Lehigh/Lafayette crowd in history. Reasonable expectation for a sellout crowd.

Campus setting - Princeton's campus, but a campus setting nonetheless.

Not incredibly far from either Bethehem or Easton.

Room for tailgating - though confining it to the designated areas instead of the town of Princeton might be a challenge.

But it's on a Friday and people would have to leave early or take off from work. The positive is that many Lafayette and Lehigh faculty members, and old Artie, would have an orgasm over the fact that the game would be held at an Ivy league venue.

[ngineer]

But it's on a Friday and people would have to leave early or take off from work. The positive is that many Lafayette and Lehigh faculty members, and old Artie, would have an orgasm over the fact that the game would be held at an Ivy league venue.xlolxxlolxxlolx
That's a good one! ...and so true.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Moving it from the Lehigh Valley is a horrible idea and likely won't get any traction. If Coca Cola Park was bigger it would be an ideal venue.

A lot will depend on TV. The major networks like ESPN/ABC, CBS and NBC pretty much call the shots for these type of events. I'm sure they would inspect both schools facilities.

[carney2]

A lot will depend on TV. The major networks like ESPN/ABC, CBS and NBC pretty much call the shots for these type of events. I'm sure they would inspect both schools facilities.

Aren't we full of ourselves. As someone mentioned in passing earlier in this thread, the Saturday before Thanksgiving has traditionally been "rivalry weekend" in college football, with many games of much broader national appeal than Pards n Squawks (number 150 or not) on the schedule. I'm sure that ESPN or one of the networks would find room on one of their numbered/lettered cable outlets - one that I am too cheap to pay for - for a 150th, but to think that they are going to stop the presses for an FCS affair of local/regional interest between two non-scholarship programs that are not exactly feeders to the NFL is ridiculous.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Aren't we full of ourselves. As someone mentioned in passing earlier in this thread, the Saturday before Thanksgiving has traditionally been "rivalry weekend" in college football, with many games of much broader national appeal than Pards n Squawks (number 150 or not) on the schedule. I'm sure that ESPN or one of the networks would find room on one of their numbered/lettered cable outlets - one that I am too cheap to pay for - for a 150th, but to think that they are going to stop the presses for an FCS affair of local/regional interest between two non-scholarship programs that are not exactly feeders to the NFL is ridiculous.

The Saturday before Thanksgiving is no longer the big rivalry weekend. Even Michigan-Ohio State will again be played the Saturday after Turkey Day. The only rivalry competition Lehigh-Lafayette has anymore is Harvard-Yale and Stanford-Cal.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Aren't we full of ourselves. As someone mentioned in passing earlier in this thread, the Saturday before Thanksgiving has traditionally been "rivalry weekend" in college football, with many games of much broader national appeal than Pards n Squawks (number 150 or not) on the schedule. I'm sure that ESPN or one of the networks would find room on one of their numbered/lettered cable outlets - one that I am too cheap to pay for - for a 150th, but to think that they are going to stop the presses for an FCS affair of local/regional interest between two non-scholarship programs that are not exactly feeders to the NFL is ridiculous.

This post is so crammed with falsehoods I don't know where to begin.

While the Saturday before Thanksgiving has traditionally been "rivalry weekend", in more recent years it has been more of a placeholder in the FBS before the Michigan/Ohio State, Texas/Oklahoma, USC/UCLA type matchups that usually happen the weekend AFTER thanksgiving.

Looking for a case in point? Try this year.

Saturday FBS matchups, 10/20/2010 (selected games):

Pittsburgh vs. USF
Penn State vs. Indiana
West Virginia vs. Louisville
Wisconsin vs. Michigan
North Carolina State vs. North Carolina
Oklahoma State vs. Kansas
Stanford vs. Cal
Ole Miss vs. LSU
Florida Atlantic vs. Texas
Appalachian State vs. Florida
Ohio State vs. Iowa
Virginia Tech vs. Miami
Army vs. Notre Dame
Oklahoma vs. Baylor
Nebraska vs. Texas A&M

Of these "rivalry games" only two would be considered "rivalries" in the classic sense (Stanford vs. Cal, and - extremely charitably - Army vs. Notre Dame). Sure, there are some games that are good matchups between Top 25 teams, but even the most casual fan would not mistake Ohio State/Iowa or Ole Miss/LSU as huge rivalries. Matter of fact, week 12 looks like, well, any other week in FBS, with the lone exception of the Stanford/Cal game. "Rivalry week"? Hardly.

Even if, after looking at the landscape and saying that a 12:30 Lehigh/Lafayette start cannot possibly compete with a 4PM EST (at best) start between Stanford and Cal, you could still move it to Friday under the lights at Fisher or under the lights at a neutral location. This year, there was exactly one game on Friday, November 19th: Fresno State. vs. Boise State with a 9:30 EST start time. Not exactly like competing against Michigan/Ohio State.

And, quite frankly, carney, I'm truly surprised that you would characterize the game as being "of local/regional interest" between "two non-scholarship programs". I will concede that not everyone in America knows of Lehigh vs. Lafayette, but to characterize it as a rivalry that only a couple thousand people in the LV area care about is ridiculous. It is false that it is only of local/regional interest, and it's false that it's between two non-scholarship programs.

[Sader87]

Aren't we full of ourselves. As someone mentioned in passing earlier in this thread, the Saturday before Thanksgiving has traditionally been "rivalry weekend" in college football, with many games of much broader national appeal than Pards n Squawks (number 150 or not) on the schedule. I'm sure that ESPN or one of the networks would find room on one of their numbered/lettered cable outlets - one that I am too cheap to pay for - for a 150th, but to think that they are going to stop the presses for an FCS affair of local/regional interest between two non-scholarship programs that are not exactly feeders to the NFL is ridiculous.

What he said.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bump.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/05/150th-rivalry-at-neutral-location.html


Picture this: it's November 22nd, 2014, the day when Lehigh and Lafayette face off for a historic 150th time on the gridiron.

But instead of heading over to Fisher Field in Easton or Murray Goodman stadium in Bethlehem - you're going somewhere else.

You're taking your mimosas and fried turkeys and heading to Citizens Bank Park - home of the Phillies - for a fantastic, full day of tailgating, events - and, obviously, bitter hatred of the Leopards or Mountain Hawks.

The idea of bringing "The Rivalry" to a neutral location is still in its infancy, but is still a very intriguing prospect that could bring with it a lot of new fans, TV exposure... and fun.

I know it's weeks after it was first discussed here... but it's a good time to talk about it once again. I still think it's a good idea.

[carney2]

I know it's weeks after it was first discussed here... but it's a good time to talk about it once again. I still think it's a good idea.

Still a nice talking point, but the basic questions haven't gone away:

What is the true market for this game? Frankly, I'm thinking that it sells out every year because the core market is 20,000+. Throw in some hype and it grows a little, but how much? What happens if they play it and folks don't come? I'm thinking the Meadowlands with 28,000 or so would be an embarrassment.

Let's face it, the hardcore football following for these two schools is getting a little long in the tooth. How many additional old folks are going to come out to see a night game the weekend before Thanksgiving - especially one they have to drive a distance to and is located in an unfamiliar neighborhood? We all know from experience that this weekend can be brutal in eastern Pennsylvania. Now you are probably going to add after sundown to the formula. Ugh!

The "where" would be a problem. Princeton? No way. Citizens Bank Park? Most of the gate receipts would go to the Sillies to get their field back in shape. Franklin Field? No parking in West Philadelphia should be a real attraction to the graybeards. The Linc? The Beagles would never hear of it. Ruptures? See Princeton above. The Meadowlands? A pretty big house to fill.

How about my earlier idea: first half at Badman; second half at Fisher. Early start to cram it all in, and separate admissions, with a discount for buying both. No major concessions to ESPN and the like. If they want it they can have it, but not on Tuesday at 3:00 AM. The drunks are on their own recognizance.

And, my biggest objection: Lehigh is ODD and ever it shall be.

[LUHawker]

Bump.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/05/150th-rivalry-at-neutral-location.html



I know it's weeks after it was first discussed here... but it's a good time to talk about it once again. I still think it's a good idea.

On the surface I like all of the concepts of exposing more people to L-L, the extra publicity and big hoopla surrounding the game, but I struggle with moving it out of the Lehigh Valley, which is what most surely would have to happen for those other things to play out. If the game was scheduled to be played at Goodman where lights could be brougt in as well as significantly more seating, then I would not move the game. This isn't just a case of I'd rather have the game at Lehigh because I'm an LU guy either; I'd be ok with a similar situation in Easton, but don't think Lafayette can accomodate those demands. Playing at either Penn or Princeton "feels" like it cheapens the experience for both LU and LC fans and I am not excited about seeing the game at a baseball stadium. Would Philly fans really care that much? If anything, Delaware fans might show up for the spectacle. Lehigh-Lafayette has always been about the students, alumni and locals and has never been about the casual fan, so I am not sure that the schools get more from moving the game elsewhere as it might diminish the experience for the base of fans that attend this game.

I think a Thursday night game at a neutral venue could help overcome some of the other drawbacks and be interesting but only if all the students are able to make the game. I'm not sure that either LU or LC students have shown much willingness to travel, even when games are nearby.

IF this were to materialize then I think it should be played at Franklin Field, Princeton or Rutgers (and not necessarily in that order) given both proximity and historical ties with those schools.

The more I write here, the less convived I feel about moving the game. I'll need to noodle this one more.

Best solution in my opinion is to find a way to play this game in Bethlehem. If I were a Pard fan, I would never want to give up the game, but this is the most logical solution when you set aside biases, allegiances and emotions and just look at the facts.

Who knows maybe LU and LC can find a way to meet in the playoffs before this happens.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't see the institutional handwringing that a game has to be on the old sod of the college or it isn't somehow fair. Army and Navy play in a variety of places, but it's the game that counts, not that they're in Baltimore or Philadelphia or even the Meadowlands. I'm sure if Lafayette got the gate from moving the game to Franklin Field, they'd be OK with that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What is the true market for this game? Frankly, I'm thinking that it sells out every year because the core market is 20,000+. Throw in some hype and it grows a little, but how much? What happens if they play it and folks don't come? I'm thinking the Meadowlands with 28,000 or so would be an embarrassment.

This "true market" is an unanswerable question because, frankly, there's no way to know unless the game is moved to a neutral site. Would International/West Coast alums fly into Philadelphia to watch it if it were a big enough event? Would curious Rutgers, Penn State, Delaware, Villanova and St. Joe's fans show up on a Thursday night to get their mugs on TV and see something historic? It's hard to gauge properly, but I think it's pretty safe to say if the Yale Bowl sells out at 60,000 for Harvard/Yale, an extremely conservative estimate would be that L/L would at a bare minimum pack 30,000 fans.


Let's face it, the hardcore football following for these two schools is getting a little long in the tooth. How many additional old folks are going to come out to see a night game the weekend before Thanksgiving - especially one they have to drive a distance to and is located in an unfamiliar neighborhood? We all know from experience that this weekend can be brutal in eastern Pennsylvania. Now you are probably going to add after sundown to the formula. Ugh!

I don't know about you, but the thought of an extra three hours of tailgating and the excitement of the 150th might cause some of those "old folks" to come out during sundown. There's also time to make arrangements for transportation, etc. to this game as well. I'm sure it's a factor, but maybe not as big a factor as you might think.


The "where" would be a problem. Princeton? No way. Citizens Bank Park? Most of the gate receipts would go to the Sillies to get their field back in shape. Franklin Field? No parking in West Philadelphia should be a real attraction to the graybeards. The Linc? The Beagles would never hear of it. Ruptures? See Princeton above. The Meadowlands? A pretty big house to fill.

I happen to think CBP is the best solution, mostly thanks to the tailgating space. Though I like the new Meadowlands, I think it's a bit presumptuous to think that 82,000 people would show up, and the Linc poses the same issue (and, of course, the fact that Temple plays there). There's also PPL Park, possible future FBS home of Villanova, but I think that it's too small, unless they can get it up to 30,000, and tailgating isn't as nice in Chester.

Princeton, while being an ideal location, is too small at 27,000, in my opinion. Penn's Franklin Field not only has no parking, it also has no atmosphere. It's like playing football in a Roman Coliseum - and you see every empty seat.

Rutgers to me is interesting since it has the tailgating, the field is FieldTurf, the history is there with L/L and could host 52,000 fans - and I think Piscataway is close enough to both campuses so that it might be a great turnout. But Rutgers would have to be OK with the deal, of course, it's subject to the Scarlet Knight's football schedule and Rutgers might not be too interested in helping Lehigh and Lafayette out, unless their venue is prominently featured and mentioned in the broadcast, or something. It might be easier to just get CBP and avoid all that.

Upshot is, venue is a big question mark. To me, the ideal venue would hold at least 40,000 fans and potentially 60,000, wouldn't be too far away from L/L, and could support night football. Signs point to CBP, Rutgers or Franklin Field, in my mind.

[The Last Engineer]

I remember touching on this subject during the run-up to #146 in November. It is a very interesting idea, but I just can't bring myself to support it beyond the daydreaming phase. The Rivalry is special because of the unequalled duration and intensity of the whole thing. In a word... tradition. Sending #150 to a neutral site would be an affront to that tradition. Yes, more people in the stands would be nice, but I want Lehigh to beat those SOB Lepers on their own field in Easton.

Anyone who thinks we could ever possibly draw more than 30,000 is not being realistic. A crowd of 30,000 inside a 45,000 seat venue like Citizens Bank Park would not exactly be impressive on TV. Larger facilities would only further exacerbate the situation. While Princeton Stadium is the ideal size, it is still PRINCETON STADIUM and no Lehigh-Lafayette game should ever have the Engineers celebrating touchdowns in end zones slathered in orange and black. Any remote location would alienate the student population of both schools and there is no way in Hell that a mob of 20,000+ non-Princetonians would ever be welcomed anywhere near that campus. Heck, Wilkes-Barre hasn't invited us up there since that 1891 game. Rutgers... same issues. Franklin Field... same issue plus homocides and no parking/tailgating.

A nationally-televised crowd of 20,000 packed into a temporarily-expanded Fisher Field for #150 would look exactly like how we all want The Rivalry to be represented... an event that is overflowing with passionate fans who are enjoying all that is great about college sports. A national network would certainly be able to work from the improved Fisher Field just like ESPN2 did when it broadcast #129 from Goodman in 1993... the first NCAA football game ever on that network.

If we are lucky enough to be on a major network broadcast for #150, then we should let the world see The Rivalry for what it is. I would even temporarily forgive the whole Mountain Hawk thing if Lee Corso put on the Lehigh mascot head during Game Day Live. All of that happening 50+ miles from either campus seems somehow sacrilegous to me.

The Rivalry can stand on its own, just like it has since 1884.

[bojeta]

My feelings/suggestions:
1. History is extremely important! This game she be recognized, honored and nationally televised.
2. For games of historical significance, I feel a commemorative coin is in order. There are sites online that provide this service at a reasonable cost. Best practice is to pre-sale or at least pre-order so that you don't get left holding hundreds of coins. Sell them to raise funds for the program.
3. Have the game at home! A difference of 2500 seats or so will be a mute point 5, 10, 100 years from now. The photos, memorabilia and the memories that remain for the students, parents alumni and the community will last forever and are priceless.
4. Ya, there are "big" games all over the country. Big Deal! This type of game is what it should really be about. Two colleges playing for guts and glory on the gridiron without worrying about who might be up for a Heisman, a bowl game or an NFL contract.

I have no connection to either program, save the love of college football and I would LOVE to be at this game!!! May the best team win!

[citdog]

how about allowing me and some of my buddies to attack the stadium?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3241/2654037761_bf211b9cb6.jpg

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I have no idea why anyone would want to go another college for the Lehigh-Lafayette game. This whole idea is nothing more than a pipedream imo.

[Pard4Life]

Didn't OSU and Michigan get moved from that weekend due to the new Big 10 alignment?

[LUHawker]

Yes, it is a week later now.

[carney2]

Didn't OSU and Michigan get moved from that weekend due to the new Big 10 alignment?

Yes. In fact, the concept of that Saturday before Thanksgiving being "rivalry weekend" has pretty much disappeared. On November 20, 2010, the day of the 146th Lafayette-Lehigh game, the only other match-up with anything approaching that much fire and tradition was California-Stanford.

[ngineer]

I remember touching on this subject during the run-up to #146 in November. It is a very interesting idea, but I just can't bring myself to support it beyond the daydreaming phase. The Rivalry is special because of the unequalled duration and intensity of the whole thing. In a word... tradition. Sending #150 to a neutral site would be an affront to that tradition. Yes, more people in the stands would be nice, but I want Lehigh to beat those SOB Lepers on their own field in Easton.

Anyone who thinks we could ever possibly draw more than 30,000 is not being realistic. A crowd of 30,000 inside a 45,000 seat venue like Citizens Bank Park would not exactly be impressive on TV. Larger facilities would only further exacerbate the situation. While Princeton Stadium is the ideal size, it is still PRINCETON STADIUM and no Lehigh-Lafayette game should ever have the Engineers celebrating touchdowns in end zones slathered in orange and black. Any remote location would alienate the student population of both schools and there is no way in Hell that a mob of 20,000+ non-Princetonians would ever be welcomed anywhere near that campus. Heck, Wilkes-Barre hasn't invited us up there since that 1891 game. Rutgers... same issues. Franklin Field... same issue plus homocides and no parking/tailgating.

A nationally-televised crowd of 20,000 packed into a temporarily-expanded Fisher Field for #150 would look exactly like how we all want The Rivalry to be represented... an event that is overflowing with passionate fans who are enjoying all that is great about college sports. A national network would certainly be able to work from the improved Fisher Field just like ESPN2 did when it broadcast #129 from Goodman in 1993... the first NCAA football game ever on that network.

If we are lucky enough to be on a major network broadcast for #150, then we should let the world see The Rivalry for what it is. I would even temporarily forgive the whole Mountain Hawk thing if Lee Corso put on the Lehigh mascot head during Game Day Live. All of that happening 50+ miles from either campus seems somehow sacrilegous to me.

The Rivalry can stand on its own, just like it has since 1884.

Very good observations and after reading all of the entries on this, I would agree that having it at Fisher, with temporaries brought in would still be the best in capturing the real flavor of the Rivalry.

[ngineer]

ESPN COLLEGE GAME DAY for another college football rivalry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNwdEtDd1IQ&feature=related
Great stuff..and based on that, there is no reason they can't do the same format at Fisher for #150.

[DFW HOYA]

ESPN is not coming to Easton. It'll get passing mention, a feature story, but probably not more. Increasingly, College Game Day is at the site of its primetime game of the week, and it doesn't sound like many of you purists want to move the game to 7:00 pm, even for ESPNU.

(Besides, Lee Corso would keep referring to "the Engineers" and get all the suits upset.)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Rivalry is special because of the unequalled duration and intensity of the whole thing. In a word... tradition. Sending #150 to a neutral site would be an affront to that tradition.

I've been mulling over this post for days, and I finally figured out what annoys me so much about it. These three sentences. How is moving this game to a neutral site an AFFRONT to the "tradition"? Last I checked, Grambling and Southern were able to move their rivalry to the Superdome with no let-up in either duration or intensity. Say you don't like the idea, sure, but an affront to tradition? Really?

Next thing you know, we'll be saying that the game shouldn't be on TV. "Our forefathers didn't have TV, so why should a new generation be able to see Lehigh/Lafayette on their small screens, too?"

All this talk on this thread makes me understand why the league is dithering on football scholarships. It's not hard to see PL presidents talking about the issue and saying scholarships are an "affront to the tradition of non-scholarship football". "Our version of non-scholarship ball can stand on its own... just like it has since 1884."

[Pard4Life]

College Game Day did a show from Penn against Harvard in 2001 in mid-November. It can be done. And our game ends up on SportsCenter, so they are at least aware of it.

[carney2]

Very good observations and after reading all of the entries on this, I would agree that having it at Fisher, with temporaries brought in would still be the best in capturing the real flavor of the Rivalry.

Lafayette brought in temporary seats a few years ago to fill in the east end zone next to Kirby Sports Center. It gave Fisher Stadium a horseshoe effect that I thought was marvelous. Lafayette AD Bruce McCutcheon was asked a few years ago why this isn't done on a regular basis, considering the demand and the fact that a mere 1,500 additional seats at $20.00 each would add $30,000 to the gate receipts as well as satisfying more alumni and friends who are annually clamoring for tickets. Here is my recollection of his perplexing and unsatisfying response:

The temporary seats that I remember were added in the year of the 100th Easton-Phillipsburg high school football game. This, for those of you who are not aware, is a major high school game played each year on Thanksgiving Day at neutral Fisher Stadium. It, like the Lafayette-Lehigh game, is a sellout every year, and the 100th game was a particularly difficult ticket to come by. The costs of the additional seating were, according to McCutcheon, split among the College and the two high schools. Without this cost sharing, McCutcheon claims, the costs of adding the seating is prohibitive and makes it a money losing proposition.

Something inside of me finds this explanation preposterous. We are talking about some basic wooden bleachers which are undoubtedly available somewhere in the Lafayette community, probably at Metzgar Fields Athletic Complex, less than 5 miles away. No out of pocket cost there. The bleachers would have to be transported from Metzgar Fields to Fisher Stadium and then transported back after the game. The College has a fleet of trucks that could be used for this purpose. Again, other than gas, it is difficult to see the College incurring any out of pocket costs for the move. Finally, the bleachers would have to be disassembled and reassembled - twice. The College has a large work force that could handle this task. They would, of course, have to ignore their regular responsibilities while tending to this irregular task, but they would be paid the same as they would normally be paid. There would be little, if any, additional payroll costs. Perhaps, even probably, many of these dollars would be moved from one or another of the College's many budgets to the athletic department budget and Bruce McCutcheon sees this as real money. If so, he has been in academia too long and has lost contact with reality. In summary, it is difficult to see how the College incurs real out of pocket (that term again) expenses of $30,000 or more to make this happen. And, to the extent that they can squeeze in more than 1,500 seats, the gate receipts go up even more.

[The Last Engineer]

I've been mulling over this post for days, and I finally figured out what annoys me so much about it. These three sentences. How is moving this game to a neutral site an AFFRONT to the "tradition"? Last I checked, Grambling and Southern were able to move their rivalry to the Superdome with no let-up in either duration or intensity. Say you don't like the idea, sure, but an affront to tradition? Really?

Next thing you know, we'll be saying that the game shouldn't be on TV. "Our forefathers didn't have TV, so why should a new generation be able to see Lehigh/Lafayette on their small screens, too?"

All this talk on this thread makes me understand why the league is dithering on football scholarships. It's not hard to see PL presidents talking about the issue and saying scholarships are an "affront to the tradition of non-scholarship football". "Our version of non-scholarship ball can stand on its own... just like it has since 1884."

Chuck... why don't you just say you don't like *my* idea instead? Extrapolating my (and others'...) objections to moving #150 to a neutral site as an attack against advancements like TV coverage implies that someone like me would also still be ticked off about that damn rule that changed the scoring value of touchdowns from 4 points to 5 points in 1897. TV coverage gives smaller football programs a chance to gain exposure to a larger audience which is certainly a good thing. We can get that benefit while still playing games at our home fields, including #150 at Fisher Field.

The Bayou Classic (Grambling-Southern) was moved to New Orleans in 1974. Those two teams had met for something like 42 times when the neutral site was selected. Other neutral site rivalries (Texas-Oklahoma, Florida-Georgia, etc.) were relocated to the neutral site within the first couple decades of start of the series. We have 145 home field games and 1 neutral site game under our collective belts. No one else can claim that sort of history. Shouldn't we respect that? Paying $40 to see #150 in a half-full stadium 50 miles from either campus... I don't like that idea. If someone built a 30,000-seat stadium at the intersection of PA-33 and Freemansburg Avenue, I might feel differently about the neutral site concept.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Chuck... why don't you just say you don't like *my* idea instead? Extrapolating my (and others'...) objections to moving #150 to a neutral site as an attack against advancements like TV coverage implies that someone like me would also still be ticked off about that damn rule that changed the scoring value of touchdowns from 4 points to 5 points in 1897. TV coverage gives smaller football programs a chance to gain exposure to a larger audience which is certainly a good thing. We can get that benefit while still playing games at our home fields, including #150 at Fisher Field.

Alright, this made me laugh a lot. That's a very fair criticism of my comment. xlolx


The Bayou Classic (Grambling-Southern) was moved to New Orleans in 1974. Those two teams had met for something like 42 times when the neutral site was selected. Other neutral site rivalries (Texas-Oklahoma, Florida-Georgia, etc.) were relocated to the neutral site within the first couple decades of start of the series. We have 145 home field games and 1 neutral site game under our collective belts. No one else can claim that sort of history. Shouldn't we respect that? Paying $40 to see #150 in a half-full stadium 50 miles from either campus... I don't like that idea. If someone built a 30,000-seat stadium at the intersection of PA-33 and Freemansburg Avenue, I might feel differently about the neutral site concept.

That's all well and good, but while wishing for this mythical 30,000 seat stadium equidistant from Lehigh and Lafayette, a golden opportunity is missed to show off this Rivalry to a larger audience. And let me be clear, I'm not for making this a neutral site game from now until the end of time. I'm for once, maybe twice, moving it to a neutral field so that some national network can cover the game, that it can be at night, and that it can support the amount of tailgating and alumni that will almost certainly come from all over the country.

I honestly don't think moving the game once or twice to a neutral field is disrespecting the history, no more than that third game in 1891 in Wilkes-Barre disrespected the series.

And another thing to remember is that for the 150th there will be a LOT more alumni who will be interested - if not in going to the game itself, will be hitting the tailgates. I honestly don't think Lehigh or Lafayette's home fields will be able to accommodate all that interest. I could easily see CBP's parking lot loaded to the gills with a lot more L/L fans - and would also open things up for more school-specific events, or even joint things. It could be an all-day affair. That will never happen in the city of Easton, nor the fields around Goodman.

[DFW HOYA]

Again, endowment returns aren't blank checks. Most university endowments are restricted as to use (faculty, curriculum, etc.)

[The Last Engineer]

While #150 will generate some additional interest, I do not share your optimistic view of 30,000+ people wanting to come down to Philly to watch this game. If nothing else, please give up on the Citizen's Bank Park idea. There is a really nice football stadium about a 5-wood away from CBP. No sense coughing up the dough to convert CBP, especially as it wasn't designed with a football conversion in mind. New Yankee Stadium (ND-Army last year) actually was and it still probably cost them a million bucks to make that change happen. If either school has an extra million sitting around for that, maybe we'll actually get football scholarships approved after all.

Your desire for an all-day tailgating event culminating with a night football game is already possible in Easton. As is, I tailgate in Easton every other year from 7:00am until whenever I feel like leaving plus they already have a lighted field. To cope with the larger crowds, maybe Lafayette could open up Metzgar Fields for overflow tailgating like they did in 1998. Have them charge non-students $30 instead of $20 and use the extra money to put up temporary stands. Solutions can be found while still keeping the game in Easton. It is the same story in Bethlehem if Lehigh would ever make the commitment to light the entire Goodman campus.

Also please consider that raising our level of exposure means that it would not only be the good things about The Rivalry that would get more attention. I doubt that any PL president would be pleased to read about the annual Lehigh-Lafayette alcohol-related arrests in the Philadelphia Inquirer instead of the story being buried in one of the local papers. Remember... the parking lots in Philly are actively patrolled by the Philly's Finest and any all-day tailgating event would produce some unfortunate side effects that would require police intervention. I'd assume that we'd face similar scrutiny at any neutral site.

I guess the point I'm (eventually) trying to make is that I think it would be much more constructive and productive to try and get #150 on national TV than it would be to uproot the event (even if only for one year) for the sake of drawing in another few thousand fans who may not even exist. It would certainly stink on ice to want to attend #150 only to be shut out by a lack of available tickets. Then again, perhaps the scarcity of those tickets is part of what makes The Rivalry so special. To transplant that game to a neutral site and is to risk misplacing (if only temporarily) the soul of the thing in order to help promote it. You'll have a hard time winning converts if the new product bears little resemblence to the one that we already love. That product, as is, proudly bears that "Tradition" name that got this exchange started.

How about we focus our efforts on getting #150 as the featured game on ESPN that week? Millions of TV viewers seeing what we have to offer would make a much larger impact than an extra 15,000 people attending a game on a one-time basis. Look at what Lehigh's hoops tourney game against Kansas last year did for us. The extra people who saw that game in person in Oklahoma City were nothing compared to the millions who watched that game on TV and then made "Lehigh" a top Internet search term that night.

[carney2]

The 150th will be played at Fisher Stadium on College Hill in Easton.

The kickoff will be at the traditional 1:07.

Lafayette AD, Bruce McCutcheon will find the funds for additional (temporary) seating.

An all-time attendance record will be set for the renovated Fisher Stadium.

ESPN will find space for the game on one of its lettered off-brand outlets that I am too cheap to subscribe to.

Lee Corso and company will be elsewhere that day, sucking up to a very large crowd at a very large FBS stadium.

You can take all of this to the bank.

[ngineer]

Yes, those temporary seats put in for the Easton-Pburg game did make Fisher have more of 'closed in' feel. I think they could even get a few more behind both endzones; regardless, there is no reason ESPN cannot telecast nationally on one of it's three outlets (four including ABC, which I think is owned by the same parent). If they were able to telecast the Williams-Amherst game, they can do this one, especially if most of the other 'big' BCS games have moved to other weekends.

[DFW HOYA]

If they were able to telecast the Williams-Amherst game, they can do this one, especially if most of the other 'big' BCS games have moved to other weekends.

Today's ESPN schedules are increasingly conference-specific; for example, the Big Ten all but owns the 12 noon-3 slot on ESPN/ESPN2 during the season. If Lafayette is content with a broadcast on Ch. 69 that gets picked up from ESPN3.com or Fox College Sports, than a 1:07 start is fine, but if ESPN gets involved with production they have to at least entertain a different start time (3:30, 7:00) that better fits the network's open slots.

Or what if ESPN offered primetime, but on that Friday night?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

While #150 will generate some additional interest, I do not share your optimistic view of 30,000+ people wanting to come down to Philly to watch this game. If nothing else, please give up on the Citizen's Bank Park idea. There is a really nice football stadium about a 5-wood away from CBP. No sense coughing up the dough to convert CBP, especially as it wasn't designed with a football conversion in mind. New Yankee Stadium (ND-Army last year) actually was and it still probably cost them a million bucks to make that change happen. If either school has an extra million sitting around for that, maybe we'll actually get football scholarships approved after all.

Your desire for an all-day tailgating event culminating with a night football game is already possible in Easton. As is, I tailgate in Easton every other year from 7:00am until whenever I feel like leaving plus they already have a lighted field. To cope with the larger crowds, maybe Lafayette could open up Metzgar Fields for overflow tailgating like they did in 1998. Have them charge non-students $30 instead of $20 and use the extra money to put up temporary stands. Solutions can be found while still keeping the game in Easton. It is the same story in Bethlehem if Lehigh would ever make the commitment to light the entire Goodman campus.

Also please consider that raising our level of exposure means that it would not only be the good things about The Rivalry that would get more attention. I doubt that any PL president would be pleased to read about the annual Lehigh-Lafayette alcohol-related arrests in the Philadelphia Inquirer instead of the story being buried in one of the local papers. Remember... the parking lots in Philly are actively patrolled by the Philly's Finest and any all-day tailgating event would produce some unfortunate side effects that would require police intervention. I'd assume that we'd face similar scrutiny at any neutral site.

I guess the point I'm (eventually) trying to make is that I think it would be much more constructive and productive to try and get #150 on national TV than it would be to uproot the event (even if only for one year) for the sake of drawing in another few thousand fans who may not even exist. It would certainly stink on ice to want to attend #150 only to be shut out by a lack of available tickets. Then again, perhaps the scarcity of those tickets is part of what makes The Rivalry so special. To transplant that game to a neutral site and is to risk misplacing (if only temporarily) the soul of the thing in order to help promote it. You'll have a hard time winning converts if the new product bears little resemblence to the one that we already love. That product, as is, proudly bears that "Tradition" name that got this exchange started.

How about we focus our efforts on getting #150 as the featured game on ESPN that week? Millions of TV viewers seeing what we have to offer would make a much larger impact than an extra 15,000 people attending a game on a one-time basis. Look at what Lehigh's hoops tourney game against Kansas last year did for us. The extra people who saw that game in person in Oklahoma City were nothing compared to the millions who watched that game on TV and then made "Lehigh" a top Internet search term that night.

You bring up some good points. I'm very skeptical that the town of Easton has enough room/police force/parking/everything to accommodate the overflow crowds, but you bring up a lot of good ideas on how it could work at Fisher.

But as DFW said, it's impossible to get a game on a major ESPN network if folks are unwilling to budge on a 1:07 start time on Saturday. Getting ESPN to do this - who, let's all remember, has no TV deal with the Patriot League or either of the schools - would be hard in the first place. Getting to give up their best real estate for a one-off game two one school they have an ESPN3 relationship with and zero interest for more national football (or other) games is never going to happen. It's just not the way things work these days.

They might be willing to think about it - if it's an evening game, and it would help a whole lot if it's on a Thursday or Friday.

But even just making it a night game would make the 150th different than the rest of the L/L games - which, as carney helpfully reminds us, are at 1:07 on the Saturday before Thanksgiving. And the problem I have is that it seems like any potential change to the game is just unacceptable to people, even if it means getting on TV, getting more fans, and getting more exposure for both schools.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

They might be willing to think about it - if it's an evening game, and it would help a whole lot if it's on a Thursday or Friday.

But even just making it a night game would make the 150th different than the rest of the L/L games - which, as carney helpfully reminds us, are at 1:07 on the Saturday before Thanksgiving. And the problem I have is that it seems like any potential change to the game is just unacceptable to people, even if it means getting on TV, getting more fans, and getting more exposure for both schools.

I don't believe that ANY change is unacceptable to the majority. What's unacceptable is taking the rivalry out of the Lehigh Valley imo. The fact that these schools reside in the Valley is what makes this rivalry unique. In fact, if these schools weren't 10 miles apart i'm extremely confident we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[citdog]

It's so surreal to hear the "tradition" argument coming from a bunch of yankee scum! xthumbsupx

Carry on gentlemen of northern descent.......Carry on

[CrusaderBob]

If they were able to telecast the Williams-Amherst game, they can do this one, especially if most of the other 'big' BCS games have moved to other weekends.

I'm pretty sure the Williams-Amherst game itself was not telecast that day, they only did College Game Day from Willamsown.

[The Last Engineer]

I don't believe that ANY change is unacceptable to the majority. What's unacceptable is taking the rivalry out of the Lehigh Valley imo. The fact that these schools reside in the Valley is what makes this rivalry unique. In fact, if these schools weren't 10 miles apart i'm extremely confident we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Absolutely agree on both counts. A night game in Easton for #150 sounds great to me. I have a much bigger issue with moving things out of the Lehigh Valley. Carney is probably dead-on with all of his predictions, but we have over 3 years to try and get one of the major networks to turn the spotlight in our direction. It seems like a worthwhile pursuit and an attainable goal.

[The Last Engineer]

It's so surreal to hear the "tradition" argument coming from a bunch of yankee scum! xthumbsupx

Carry on gentlemen of northern descent.......Carry on

Lehigh was founded in 1865. A great year for us... not so great for y'all. See you in Hell, Johnny Reb. xprost2x

[Pard4Life]

Hey a 330 start or a 7pm start would be great! Much more time to tailgate. And it's way better than a 1230 or noon start. Those are awful. Friday is a no go, and it's MWC and WAC night!

[carney2]

Hey a 330 start or a 7pm start would be great! Much more time to tailgate. And it's way better than a 1230 or noon start. Those are awful. Friday is a no go, and it's MWC and WAC night!

How about those two consecutive games in Easton that had a 10:00 AM kickoff?! The Lafayette "brain trust" (in quotes for obvious reasons) was trying to cut down on the rowdiness by theoretically reducing the tailgating time. The under 23 crowd just considered it a late Friday kickoff and went all night long.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How about those two consecutive games in Easton that had a 10:00 AM kickoff?! The Lafayette "brain trust" (in quotes for obvious reasons) was trying to cut down on the rowdiness by theoretically reducing the tailgating time. The under 23 crowd just considered it a late Friday kickoff and went all night long.

I think I remember those games. A little. xlolx

[Pard4Life]

C'mon LFN... you weren't in the press box? I don't really like drinking at sporting events, especially, Lafayette-Lehigh, because my mind needs to be 100% focused on the game and quick to yell insults at your team/our play calling!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

C'mon LFN... you weren't in the press box? I don't really like drinking at sporting events, especially, Lafayette-Lehigh, because my mind needs to be 100% focused on the game and quick to yell insults at your team/our play calling!

Not back then I wasn't. In the press box, I mean. xlolx

Seriously, I will only very, very occasionally partake in a singular beer or something before a game these days. I need to be alert to pick up on all the action. Those days of staying up all night for a 10:45AM start time are over.