LFN: Saving the Patriot League: The Grand Art of Compromise

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/saving-patriot-league-grand-art-of.html

Aside from the "scholarship" forces willingly going back to offering only need-based aid (which will not happen) or the "status quo" forces having a change of heart (extremely unlikely to happen), the only way forward to save the Patriot League is through compromise. I offer three solutions that will probably please nobody, but might just save the League.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That's pretty much what you want to hear if you're a Lehigh fan. Outside of the President painting "Yes" on her forehead this is the closest you're going to get to "in favor" proclamation.

The best thing to do imo, is for Lehigh announce in the summer that following the 2011 season they will start offering scholarships in anticipation of the 2012 verdict. Hopefully Colgate would do the same thing.

[DFW HOYA]

Good column..and about 12 hours ahead of my own on the subject, which also includes the scholarship option described.

Larger question, though: do these schools want to make it work, or did the meeting open up wounds that don't heal?

[youwouldno]

I have no doubt they tried to compromise. The problem is that the league is just too unstable. Fordham will leave eventually regardless and Georgetown is unreliable at best, even if scholarships don't happen. In both cases it is just a tenuous marriage of convenience. Expansion prospects are limited. The PL basically is in a holding pattern because it has no options and probably no future. Not enough high-academic schools in the Northeast are committed to fielding a strong FCS program.

A ways into the future, a North/South high-academic conference may be possible, with teams currently in the PL, CAA, and SoCon. But the PL doesn't have that kind of time.

[ngineer]

I have no doubt they tried to compromise. The problem is that the league is just too unstable. Fordham will leave eventually regardless and Georgetown is unreliable at best, even if scholarships don't happen. In both cases it is just a tenuous marriage of convenience. Expansion prospects are limited. The PL basically is in a holding pattern because it has no options and probably no future. Not enough high-academic schools in the Northeast are committed to fielding a strong FCS program.

A ways into the future, a North/South high-academic conference may be possible, with teams currently in the PL, CAA, and SoCon. But the PL doesn't have that kind of time.

No question you could form a great conference along those lines adding Richmond, Wm & Mary, Furman, Wofford and Elon. But unless CAA and SoCon are about to 'break up' the timing does not seem to jive.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2010/12/alarm-clock.html

Wanted to highlight DFW's blog posting as well on his analysis of the situation.


The Patriot League faces this brave new world: for all intents and purposes, it has lost Fordham. If even one of the all-sports members (Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh) leaves the conference, the PL drops football as a sponsored sport and Georgetown is cast adrift. Think it can’t happen? At least two of these schools (Colgate, Lehigh) will give full scholarships a hard look next season and may be tempted to pull the same trump card Fordham pulled—‘we’re going scholarship, what are you going to do about it?” And what will the PL do, if anything? At that point, what can they do, short of disbanding the conference?

Lafayette is on the record in the Allentown and Easton press—it won’t support a 63 scholarship league, the source of considerable consternation in the only media market that really follows the PL anymore. Maybe the PL can’t stomach 63, but it needs a compromise.

We have similar themes in our postings, but the general thoughts are the same: a compromise is needed, or else the League will probably not survive.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Larger question, though: do these schools want to make it work, or did the meeting open up wounds that don't heal?

I really don't know the answer to this question. I'm actually quite stunned as to how quickly many, many Lehigh fans have turned on "The Rivalry" and seem willing to possibly throw that away over the course of a week.

Joe Sterrett's statement this week on "remaining hopeful about the future of our league" I choose to take in a positive way. An interesting choice of words was that he mentioned "the challenges that must be confronted and resolved" - it seems like Mr. Sterrett, DFW and myself are all saying the same thing - CONFRONT IT AND RESOLVE IT, ALREADY.

[Go...gate]

Nice job, DFW. Well done.

[Kramden]

[QUOTE=Lehigh Football Nation;1603483]http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2010/12/alarm-clock.html

Wanted to highlight DFW's blog posting as well on his analysis of the situation.



We have similar themes in our postings, but the general thoughts are the same: a compromise is needed, or else the League will probably not survive.

The school rivalries were there before the League formed and would be there after; I would personally like to see the PL just plain give up having a football conference and let the schools decide what direction they want to go. I agree an entire up/down East Coast conference with like academinc schools would be very intriguing but just too many variables to happen. Hopefully the schools will at least play some OOC's against each other.

[LUHawker]

I really don't know the answer to this question. I'm actually quite stunned as to how quickly many, many Lehigh fans have turned on "The Rivalry" and seem willing to possibly throw that away over the course of a week.

Joe Sterrett's statement this week on "remaining hopeful about the future of our league" I choose to take in a positive way. An interesting choice of words was that he mentioned "the challenges that must be confronted and resolved" - it seems like Mr. Sterrett, DFW and myself are all saying the same thing - CONFRONT IT AND RESOLVE IT, ALREADY.

I missed Sterrett's statement, can you post the link or was this something said privately?

Thanks, LFN.

Here's to hoping that there are still discussions behind the scenes to move the ball forward and still keep Fordham.

[Franks Tanks]

No question you could form a great conference along those lines adding Richmond, Wm & Mary, Furman, Wofford and Elon. But unless CAA and SoCon are about to 'break up' the timing does not seem to jive.

That's not gonna happen. Richmond and William & Mary fans have stated that they feel they would associate more with Southern schools if their was a major FCS league shake up.

We should stop the fantasy and focus on reality.

[Sly Fox]

I'm not sure how many variables would need to come into play to create that Eastern academic league. The CAA is in a tenuous position right now that could leave W&M as well as Richmond looking for partners should the bigger money schools decide to step up to FBS along with a couple key SoCon schools. At that point the SoCon will have lost much of its luster and the concept of a few key SoCon schools of high academic standing choosing to form a southern division of a new league offers some real appeal. The remaining SoCon schools could possibly partner with a Liberty-less Big South (where some of them began in the first place). It is not as farfetched as it initially sounds.

As for the blog posts, I guess it is tough for some of us outsiders to understand how grave the situation is right now. I was basing all of this talk on the wants of schools and not their needs. It sounds like Lehigh & Colgate are feeling that the perceived wants are actually needs for their football viability. And forgive this alum of a 39-year old school for asking, but aren't those massive endowment funds that PL schools are so quick to point out capable of sustaining scholarships? I admit I am not familiar with the process but it would seem that such small colleges with huge endowments would be well suited to handle scholarships. But clearly there is a disconnect somewhere in my thinking.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Very nice job, DFW.


The PL's decision merited not one article in the Washington Post, the Washington Examiner, The HOYA, or the Voice. Like a tree in some Pennsylvania forest, it fell down and no one heard it

The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal both gave the matter more than one article each. Newsday tired as well, but it got the facts so wrong I'm not counting that one. There's no accounting for the D.C. press.

[DFW HOYA]

And forgive this alum of a 39-year old school for asking, but aren't those massive endowment funds that PL schools are so quick to point out capable of sustaining scholarships? I admit I am not familiar with the process but it would seem that such small colleges with huge endowments would be well suited to handle scholarships. But clearly there is a disconnect somewhere in my thinking.

Most university endowments are heavily restricted as to use and are not fungible, and this is why schools seek unrestricted annual gifts instead. A $10 million gift to a law school cannot be re-directed to athletics, for example, any more than an endowed athletic scholarship can be used to buy books for a professor.

[Sly Fox]

Thanks for the clarification. So essentially these schools would have to directly endow new athletic scholarships separate from the mega bucks tucked away for strictly academic pursuits. Is this correct?

[Franks Tanks]

Thanks for the clarification. So essentially these schools would have to directly endow new athletic scholarships separate from the mega bucks tucked away for strictly academic pursuits. Is this correct?

Sort of. Also each school can afford it. At Lafayette College a well respected athletic booster calculated that it would cost 1.2 million per year to convert our need based aid to scholarships, and provide the corresponding scholarships to women's sports. This would be less than 1% of the schools annual operating budget. The cost would be even less if we could play one FBS money game per year.

The schools can afford it, but the faculty is up in arms if one additional penny gets spent on athletics.

[DFW HOYA]

Very few schools endow sizeable numbers of athletic scholarships, most simply budget them from operating revenues or, in the case of state universities, from student fees.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not sure how many variables would need to come into play to create that Eastern academic league. The CAA is in a tenuous position right now that could leave W&M as well as Richmond looking for partners should the bigger money schools decide to step up to FBS along with a couple key SoCon schools. At that point the SoCon will have lost much of its luster and the concept of a few key SoCon schools of high academic standing choosing to form a southern division of a new league offers some real appeal. The remaining SoCon schools could possibly partner with a Liberty-less Big South (where some of them began in the first place). It is not as farfetched as it initially sounds.

Originally I pooh-poohed such talk, but the idea of an "northeast/southern academic league" keeps coming up so often that I wonder if, maybe, something like that is a possibility that is brewing around the edges. It would probably take the CAA or some combination of CAA and SoCon schools to move up as one unit to FBS to put it under consideration.

If it were to happen - and I'm not saying it will - IMO it wouldn't be in the form of divisional play, it would be as a brand-new conference or a rebranding of the SoCon as one with smallish, private institutions.

But isn't a big hole in that theory UMass' move to the MAC? If there was really some mass exodus to FBS, I have to believe that UMass would prefer to stay with Delaware and JMU instead of running with Buffalo and Temple.

[Franks Tanks]

Originally I pooh-poohed such talk, but the idea of an "northeast/southern academic league" keeps coming up so often that I wonder if, maybe, something like that is a possibility that is brewing around the edges. It would probably take the CAA or some combination of CAA and SoCon schools to move up as one unit to FBS to put it under consideration.

If it were to happen - and I'm not saying it will - IMO it wouldn't be in the form of divisional play, it would be as a brand-new conference or a rebranding of the SoCon as one with smallish, private institutions.

But isn't a big hole in that theory UMass' move to the MAC? If there was really some mass exodus to FBS, I have to believe that UMass would prefer to stay with Delaware and JMU instead of running with Buffalo and Temple.


You keep brining it up-- and ngineer. I haven't seen one fans from the other school always mentioned who think that league would even be a remote possibility.

[youwouldno]

Realignments tend to happen gradually rather than all at once. UMass to the MAC is sort of like Fordham in the PL right now- a temporary station that allows them to ramp up their program while looking for someplace better.

It's unlikely a large number of FCS programs would be able to act in unison to move to the FBS. Even if they did, they would need to join an existing conference. This could happen if C-USA splits, but [C-USA East] wouldn't necessarily want all the FCS aspirants anyway. Their initial targets would be existing FBS programs (e.g., Temple, maybe WKU). Any FCS additions would be made piecemeal. By that time, the most attractive targets may ODU and Charlotte, due to their locations and basketball programs. App posters claim that ECU would want App St in this scenario, but even if true other [C-USA East] members might not agree. The Sun Belt may not want to serve as a stopover station either, with only Georgia Southern being an obviously desirable addition.

So yeah, 20 years from now a dramatic realignment of high-academic schools may be possible. But the PL is operating on an entirely different time horizon. They need to expand, and soon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's unlikely a large number of FCS programs would be able to act in unison to move to the FBS. Even if they did, they would need to join an existing conference. This could happen if C-USA splits, but [C-USA East] wouldn't necessarily want all the FCS aspirants anyway. Their initial targets would be existing FBS programs (e.g., Temple, maybe WKU). Any FCS additions would be made piecemeal. By that time, the most attractive targets may ODU and Charlotte, due to their locations and basketball programs. App posters claim that ECU would want App St in this scenario, but even if true other [C-USA East] members might not agree. The Sun Belt may not want to serve as a stopover station either, with only Georgia Southern being an obviously desirable addition.

Why couldn't the CAA set up the following:

Delaware (CAA)
JMU (CAA)
Old Dominion (CAA)
Georgia State (CAA)
Liberty (from Big South)
Appalachian State (from SoCon)
Georgia Southern (from SoCon)
Western Carolina (from SoCon)
Chattanooga (from SoCon)
UNC-Charlotte (A-10 affiliate)

and then just declare one day, "We have ten schools that are willing to play FBS football. We're willing to do whatever the NCAA requires to compete at the FBS level - not only add the extra scholarships, but add academic compliance departments, etc. You won't need to worry about any other sports - the CAA already has an autobid in basketball. And the SoCon will continue football at the FCS level, and, of course, basketball. Basketball will be unaffected."

Would the NCAA really say no to that? It only is unlikely work if it's a football-only construct. If it's an existing conference that doesn't affect anything else, why would the NCAA say no? Certainly FBS wouldn't say no - they get more cannon fodder for their BCS teams. So where's the opposition?

Better yet for the CAA, all they'd need to do is add VCU and George Mason, that's twelve teams, good enough for a championship game.

[Sly Fox]

There are three paths to a FBS for the Eastern contingent of wannabes:

1. CAA steps up collectively as a league with those not interested in FBS looking for a new home (potentially in PL & SoCon)

2. Existing FBS conference (i.e. C-USA, MAC or Sunbelt) adds schools collectively for a new division thereby keeping all schools eligible for auto bids

3. Startup a new league and bite the bullet for a few years without auto bids

At this point, I wouldn't completely rule out any fo the three options.

Incidentally, thanks to everyone for the clarifications regarding the PL's relationship with scholarships. It helps some of the rest of us having a better perspective.

[youwouldno]

Realistically no one would ever form a proto-FBS conference without already being assured in advance that the NCAA would allow it. The NCAA would reject the enterprise as too risky. And programs highly value membership in an all-sports conference... that was a big key to why WKU moved to FBS (to become a full Sun Belt member). UMass basically did it out of necessity, with FCS programs folding all around them, and also with the realistic possibility of future membership in a superior conference.

In other words, the FBS aspirants themselves would never agree to it, putting aside the fact it's against NCAA rules.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Realistically no one would ever form a proto-FBS conference without already being assured in advance that the NCAA would allow it. The NCAA would reject the enterprise as too risky. And programs highly value membership in an all-sports conference... that was a big key to why WKU moved to FBS (to become a full Sun Belt member). UMass basically did it out of necessity, with FCS programs folding all around them, and also with the realistic possibility of future membership in a superior conference.

In other words, the FBS aspirants themselves would never agree to it, putting aside the fact it's against NCAA rules.

1) Why wouldn't the NCAA allow it? It wouldn't affect basketball or any other sport. Furthermore, the BCS would be OK with it - they're looking for cannon fodder in non-BCS FBS.

2) Why would it be too risky? It's an existing all-sports conference, with huge success at the FCS level. Moving to FBS changes nothing except their status as FBS instead of FCS.

3) I fail to see how the programs would not "value membership" in this new league. The core of the conference is already CAA, and I'm sure the "SoCon Four", Liberty and UNCC would "highly value" membership in a football-playing FBS conference.

4) It could be a challenge to sell all ten schools a move up to FBS at once, I suppose. But by setting up such a conference with the initial goal being FBS football, why wouldn't they? If App State, Georgia State, Georgia Southern are looking for FBS ball, wouldn't a FBS CAA be at a bare minimum as good a vehicle for moving up as, say, joining the Sun Belt?

IMVHO, the NCAA has a problem with brand-new conferences being created for the purpose of getting autobids to the NCAA basketball tournament. They don't have a problem with a mid-major basketball conference moving their football programs to FBS in an (IMO, misguided) effort to strengthen their basketball position.

[colorless raider]

For the record I am not for compromise. I am for scholarships.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For the record I am not for compromise. I am for scholarships.

But what if scholarships mean the end of the Patriot League? It very well might. And then, what would you do? Play as an independent?

[youwouldno]

1) Why wouldn't the NCAA allow it? It wouldn't affect basketball or any other sport. Furthermore, the BCS would be OK with it - they're looking for cannon fodder in non-BCS FBS.

2) Why would it be too risky? It's an existing all-sports conference, with huge success at the FCS level. Moving to FBS changes nothing except their status as FBS instead of FCS.

3) I fail to see how the programs would not "value membership" in this new league. The core of the conference is already CAA, and I'm sure the "SoCon Four", Liberty and UNCC would "highly value" membership in a football-playing FBS conference.

4) It could be a challenge to sell all ten schools a move up to FBS at once, I suppose. But by setting up such a conference with the initial goal being FBS football, why wouldn't they? If App State, Georgia State, Georgia Southern are looking for FBS ball, wouldn't a FBS CAA be at a bare minimum as good a vehicle for moving up as, say, joining the Sun Belt?

IMVHO, the NCAA has a problem with brand-new conferences being created for the purpose of getting autobids to the NCAA basketball tournament. They don't have a problem with a mid-major basketball conference moving their football programs to FBS in an (IMO, misguided) effort to strengthen their basketball position.

I misunderstood your proposal at first but I think the end result is the same.

1. The NCAA wants to carefully control the structure of college football, which from it's perspective is only a business (albeit one which must pay lip service to educational values). The new conference doesn't make the NCAA money and adds competition to existing FBS mid-majors. FCS schools are already available as cannon fodder. The BCS is irrelevant... it is just a profit-sharing mechanism that continues to exist at the whim of the power conferences.

2. Well for one thing, the CAA would not be allowed to expel smaller members and re-form as a proto-FBS conference. It would have to disband entirely and thus would no longer be a pre-existing conference. The risk would come from so many programs attempting to move up at once, with no bowl agreements, limited media, etc.

3. Yeah, I misunderstood you on this. Note that WCU is not, and won't be, in a position to move up, and several others would need significant time.

4. Moving up is not about adding scholarships. It's about conference affiliation, and moving an FCS conference to FBS doesn't really improve anyone's standing. I guess it makes it easier to move to a different FBS conference, but that motivation is exactly why the NCAA prohibits it.

[DFW HOYA]

For the record I am not for compromise. I am for scholarships.

How many? 63, or something in between?

[RichH2]

If the impasse continues the PL is dead anyway. If a compromise cannot be reached, and I think one is not currently possible, there is no option other than change. What they may be 2 yrs from now is speculation at best and for now flights of fantasy.I do hope for the PL to survive in football but the gap between the haves and have nots does not seem to me to be capable of resolution. Perhaps a year down the road may alleviate the logjam. ONE CAN ONLY HOPE.

[Franks Tanks]

If the impasse continues the PL is dead anyway. If a compromise cannot be reached, and I think one is not currently possible, there is no option other than change. What they may be 2 yrs from now is speculation at best and for now flights of fantasy.I do hope for the PL to survive in football but the gap between the haves and have nots does not seem to me to be capable of resolution. Perhaps a year down the road may alleviate the logjam. ONE CAN ONLY HOPE.

Other than Georgetown the funding differences in the PL are not that big of a deal. Colgate and Fordham spend the most, and Lafayette and Lehigh aren't that far behind. Holy Cross and Bucknell also spend at levels that are adequate for them to be competitive in the league. Every league, even those full schoalrship leagues, has some schools that spend millions more than others on football and in many cases the gaps are larger than the PL. For example Northern Colorado and Idaho State give 63 scholarships, but invest much less than Montana does in their program.

It really isn't a have and have not from a funding perspective, but some schools (Lafayette) need a reality check. Need based aid is well and good, but in 2010 it is a model that is almost impossible to follow in FCS football. I have said all along that if the PL is in danger of coming apart Lafayette and perhaps the other no voters would say "Wait. Stop. We will do this if you guys are serious about leaving." When the reality of the issue becomes apparent and is grim, philosophy tends to change quickly. Someone has to press the issue and force it on Lafayette. If that happens we will follow-- see basketball scholarships.

[RichH2]

I realy wasn't considering funding alone, except as to Hoyas, rather inarticately referring to those that want to give schollies and can and those that dont want to allow merit aid or cannot afford it. Am coming around to idea that an ultimatum may be the only answer, much like dynamiting a beaver dam. Risky true but I do not see the possibilty of compromise if the position of the opposition is philosophical. If it is just lack of money may be that a better economy in 2 yrs will solve the problem. If Gate and Lehigh are truly in favor of some form of merit aid they may have to issue the Ram threat in order to save the PL. As we all realize a non scholarship PL will return to its status as an Ivy appendage. Interesting that only 2 schools have a 4 yr avg of over 50 equivalencies. Fordham probably Gate or LU??. Everyone else under 50. Very unlikely for anyone to go to 63 or even 60 scollies or equivalencies. I would be interested to see what everyone thinks the import of these numbers might be?

[Neighbor2]

Do we even need a Patriot football league?

There seems to be no unified voice on what such a league should be. Already, PL members Army, Navy, and Fordham do not want to participate in the existing football league. The PL seems to work best with other sports, just not FCS football.

Playing independent schedules doesn't seem all that bad. Just do that until a membership in some other league provides more benefit to the school. An at-large playoff bid should be expected for most anyone who puts together 8-9 wins. The Ivies will still be interested in scheduling a couple of current league schools. A game against Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, Army, Navy, Villanova, Delaware, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, Pittsburgh, maybe even MAC teams, should be possible once per year, for those who provide 63 scholarships. Numerous other schools, ranked lower than the above mentioned, are also out there. I'd like to see some new teams coming to Goodman and visit other places on the Away-side.

[ngineer]

Sort of. Also each school can afford it. At Lafayette College a well respected athletic booster calculated that it would cost 1.2 million per year to convert our need based aid to scholarships, and provide the corresponding scholarships to women's sports. This would be less than 1% of the schools annual operating budget. The cost would be even less if we could play one FBS money game per year.

The schools can afford it, but the faculty is up in arms if one additional penny gets spent on athletics.


Which is certainly why I think Weiss is posturing the way he is. I think he's looking for the BOT to give him the cover. Does Bouger and Fisher, etal. have enough juice with them?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I realy wasn't considering funding alone, except as to Hoyas, rather inarticately referring to those that want to give schollies and can and those that dont want to allow merit aid or cannot afford it. Am coming around to idea that an ultimatum may be the only answer, much like dynamiting a beaver dam. Risky true but I do not see the possibilty of compromise if the position of the opposition is philosophical. If it is just lack of money may be that a better economy in 2 yrs will solve the problem. If Gate and Lehigh are truly in favor of some form of merit aid they may have to issue the Ram threat in order to save the PL. As we all realize a non scholarship PL will return to its status as an Ivy appendage. Interesting that only 2 schools have a 4 yr avg of over 50 equivalencies. Fordham probably Gate or LU??. Everyone else under 50. Very unlikely for anyone to go to 63 or even 60 scollies or equivalencies. I would be interested to see what everyone thinks the import of these numbers might be?

First, my semi-educated guess would put the two schools averaging above 50 for 4 years are Fordham (which makes sense since their switch from need-based to scholarship "didn't cost anything") and Colgate (which makes sense since they are currently considered a counter). Lehigh not all that recently was below 50, so I seriously doubt it's Lehigh.

Second, the equivalency/scholarship game is really designed with merit-based aid in mind, not need-limited aid, and that's why it's difficult for PL schools to get 63.

Here's an example.

Towson offers regular scholarships. Let's say they offer 63. They offer some "full rides", split some up as half/partial scholarships, and have some walk-on/need-based aid folks who have an opportunity to make it to 63. The math is easy since it only involves "full rides", not the walk-ons and/or every kid on the roster: they have their pool of aid, and that's all they need to worry about for counters.

Bucknell offers need-based aid. Some are recruited for football, some are not. All go through the financial aid office. Some get 100% scholarships, some get 2/3, some get 1/2, some get 1/3, some get nothing... some percentage of a "full ride", from 0 to 100%. The math goes through the entire team, but it's a moving target. A "full counter" might leave the team, to be replaced by a "non counter" - and not everybody on the team gets aid. Some years more players who need financial aid are available, some not.

"Equivalencies" are really a method to retrofit aid into the "scholarship" structure. Back in the day when the only number that matters was 63, that was perfectly fine. But then the NCAA mandated the number 56 1/2 - which is the number of scholarships required for a FCS win to count as a bowl-eligible win. And with "equivalencies", it's wicked hard to guarantee that you're above the 56 1/2 threshold.

[Doc QB]

But then the NCAA mandated the number 56 1/2 - which is the number of scholarships required for a FCS win to count as a bowl-eligible win. And with "equivalencies", it's wicked hard to guarantee that you're above the 56 1/2 threshold.

Its not wicked hard. You have athletic department governed aid in the form of full tuition and board times 56.5. When it is gone, it is gone. It is full rides for 56.5 kids, or it is split up, but the total dollar amount is the same. And when a kid quits, his aid can go elsewhere. The kids who have parents fill out the school wide financial aid forms, regardless of what they get, don't count, as it is not athletically related aid. It is because it is not wicked hard to count that you can get a money game by giving the NCAA your amount devoted to kids aid.

[Model Citizen]

Do we even need a Patriot football league

The Patriot League gives one team a guaranteed playoff bid. Can one of these schools get a team in every year without an auto bid?

The Patriot League gives members D-I games in Oct-Nov, when everyone else is playing conference games. Whom would current PL members play during the heart of the season? ...each other, maybe?

The Patriot League used to have a scheduling agreement with the Ivy League. I'm not sure any such agreement is still in place. Yet Patriot/Ivy games are still common. Would they continue for Fordham, Colgate, et al. without Patriot League football?

[henfan]

2. Well for one thing, the CAA would not be allowed to expel smaller members and re-form as a proto-FBS conference. It would have to disband entirely and thus would no longer be a pre-existing conference. The risk would come from so many programs attempting to move up at once, with no bowl agreements, limited media, etc.

Not saying I support this particular scenario, but why would the CAA necessarily HAVE to reform? They could simply offer those schools not interested in FBS play the opportunity to seek affiliate FB membership in another existing FCS conference (PL, NEC, SoCon, Big South, etc).

[youwouldno]

Not saying I support this particular scenario, but why would the CAA necessarily HAVE to reform? They could simply offer those schools not interested in FBS play the opportunity to seek affiliate FB membership in another existing FCS conference (PL, NEC, SoCon, Big South, etc).

Well sure, they could offer that 'opportunity', but what incentive would any of them have to take it? I mean, even in the most optimistic scenario there are 4 voting CAA members which could go FBS in the foreseeable future. So that's 1/3 of the conference against 2/3. Maybe I'm missing something here...

[henfan]

There's nothing in CAA Football's membership guidelines that would prevent the Colonial Athletic Association from sponsoring its own separate FBS FB league... at least not that I've read.

Here's one possible mechanism: current CAA Football members simply withdraw from CAA Football and join an FBS league sponsored by the Colonial Athletic Association. CAA Football could continue on as an FCS league, assuming it had enough members to do so (it likely wouldn't), or those members would be free to dissolve that league and join other leagues independently. If the latter becomes apparent, there would be no need to dissolve CAA Football, it would simply reclassify and the FCS members would go elsewhere.

[youwouldno]

There's nothing in CAA Football's membership guidelines that would prevent the Colonial Athletic Association from sponsoring its own separate FBS FB league... at least not that I've read.

Here's one possible mechanism: current CAA Football members simply withdraw from CAA Football and join an FBS league sponsored by the Colonial Athletic Association. CAA Football could continue on as an FCS league, assuming it had enough members to do so (it likely wouldn't), or those members would be free to dissolve that league and join other leagues independently. If the latter becomes apparent, there would be no need to dissolve CAA Football, it would simply reclassify and the FCS members would go elsewhere.

That is definitely not possible, for a number of reasons. For one thing, a D-I conference that sponsors football must be either FBS or FCS- it can't sponsor both. Of course NCAA rules prohibit a conference moving up wholesale, but let's assume they change the rule. There is zero chance of 7 votes to drop FCS football and sponsor it at the FBS level. There are probably major obstacles even if the votes were there, but they aren't and never will be.

So CAA members who want to go FBS have two options. One, they can hope to get an invite from a current FBS conference. Two, they can leave the CAA entirely, form a new all-sports conference, and hope the NCAA changes the rule preventing a move to FBS.

[MplsBison]

IMO, the answer is pretty simple: there is no answer.

A) disband the Patriot League FCS Football Conference

B) The Patriot League then otherwise goes unchanged (with such members as Army, Navy, American, Lehigh, Bucknell...) for basketball and other non-football sports


Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham and any other school that wants to take FCS scholarship football seriously will go their way and the other schools that want to be DIII refugees living and playing in the defacto "DI-AAA division of DI football" can go their own way.


There is nothing wrong with having separate football and basketball conferences. In fact, it makes perfect economic sense in some situations.

[Neighbor2]

[QUOTE=MplsBison;1603643]IMO, the answer is pretty simple: there is no answer.

A) disband the Patriot League FCS Football Conference


EXACTLY!

No compromise. Any "slightly merit based" agreement will still leave PL teams as weak sisters to the rest of FCS football. Also agree with an earlier poster
who believes this entire situation can be cleaned-up quickly. All it takes is for Lehigh, Colgate, or both to announce their intention to begin merit aid in 2011
or 2012. Why wait?

[the last indian]

This is beginning to sound like an argument about how many angels can stand on the end of a pin. Are these D1 football programs or not? If they are, they need a full compliment of scholarships in today's world to compete. Otherwise, stay with your Corinthian idealism and play Amherst, Gettysburg or whomever. The world has moved on. Football programs nearly universally have scholarships. Colgate has been a D1 program forever, I don't think most of the alumni want that to end. It would be nice if the league came along, if not, so be it. Lehigh and Colgate should do what is in their best interests. I don't think there is any question about what that is.

[DFW HOYA]

This is beginning to sound like an argument about how many angels can stand on the end of a pin. Are these D1 football programs or not? If they are, they need a full compliment of scholarships in today's world to compete. Otherwise, stay with your Corinthian idealism and play Amherst, Gettysburg or whomever.

All good and well, but if you can't afford 63, you make do with what you have.

[MplsBison]

All good and well, but if you can't afford 63, you make do with what you have.

What does that mean? It's all good and well if Lehigh, Colgate and Forham leave Gtown without a PL football conference?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Again - if Lehigh and Colgate (and whoever) leave the PL, they have to leave in all sports. I've seen no indication from the president of either institution that the immediate urge to award a full slate of football scholarships is so great that they are apt to do so.

But I could be wrong - the Lehigh posters here seem to think that football scholarships are Alice Gast's number one, most pressing institutional priority and that she has one foot out the Center Valley doors right now.

[henfan]

That is definitely not possible, for a number of reasons. For one thing, a D-I conference that sponsors football must be either FBS or FCS- it can't sponsor both.

Ah, but there's the rub, potentially. Would NCAA regs specifically prohibit the Colonial Athletic Association from sponsoring its own FBS football league (it currently doesn't sponsor its own FB league), while using its office to administer an entirely separate FCS football conference (as it does presently)? Under the current arrangement, the Colonial Athletic Association and CAA Football are two separate legal entities with respect to membership, finances, etc. Where in Division I Bylaws is it spelled out that this sort of idea would be verboten? I honestly don't know.

[blukeys]

Ah, but there's the rub, potentially. Would NCAA regs specifically prohibit the Colonial Athletic Association from sponsoring its own FBS football league (it currently doesn't sponsor its own FB league), while using its office to administer an entirely separate FCS football conference (as it does presently)? Under the current arrangement, the Colonial Athletic Association and CAA Football are two separate legal entities with respect to membership, finances, etc. Where in Division I Bylaws is it spelled out that this sort of idea would be verboten? I honestly don't know.

Well J you have introduced a new wrinkle to this. I see no language that specifically prohibits this.

The CAA is a Division 1 League in all athletics. Adding a FBS and FCS football component only increases its exposure and highlights the brand.

Too many on this board don't get how well known the CAA brand is in both Men's and Women's Basketball. The CAA has options that others have never thought about.

[youwouldno]

Ah, but there's the rub, potentially. Would NCAA regs specifically prohibit the Colonial Athletic Association from sponsoring its own FBS football league (it currently doesn't sponsor its own FB league), while using its office to administer an entirely separate FCS football conference (as it does presently)? Under the current arrangement, the Colonial Athletic Association and CAA Football are two separate legal entities with respect to membership, finances, etc. Where in Division I Bylaws is it spelled out that this sort of idea would be verboten? I honestly don't know.

It's an interesting theory (that the NCAA would almost certainly reject) but totally moot. The current CAA membership would never approve sponsorship of FBS football. It doesn't make any difference whether the rules allow it or not. You have a maximum vote of 4 out of 12. Last time I checked, that loses every time.

The simple fact is that JMU, UD, etc., will have to leave the CAA if they want to play FBS football. There is no way around it, other than I guess if the conference basically collapsed.

[henfan]

It's an interesting theory (that the NCAA would almost certainly reject) but totally moot. The current CAA membership would never approve sponsorship of FBS football. It doesn't make any difference whether the rules allow it or not. You have a maximum vote of 4 out of 12. Last time I checked, that loses every time.

The simple fact is that JMU, UD, etc., will have to leave the CAA if they want to play FBS football. There is no way around it, other than I guess if the conference basically collapsed.

Just looking for some bylaw that would prohibit the scenario I've outlined.

As for the current CAA Football having to approve a plan like that, that's only partially true. Lots of speculation here but you need to remember that CAA Football (CAAFB) and the Colonial Athletic Assoc. (CAA) are separate entities. Some members of CAAFB have no legislative recourse in CAA matters; however, CAA members who are not members of CAAFB have votes in all CAAFB membership matters (i.e.- GMU, VCU, Drexel, HU, NU, and UNCW).

If, say, a block of the existing CAAFB members (say, UD, JMU, TU, ODU, GSU) were to withdrawal from CAAFB in favor of the CAA FBS league, schools like UMaine, UNH, UR, UMass (for now), & VU (for now) would have zero voice in the matter. The CAA FBS league could be augmented by 2-3 FB affiliates.

For the sake of argument, let's just say W&M opposes. Realistically, what other CAA school with a vote would oppose and why? If GMU & VCU land FB programs, it's tough to imagine they wouldn't want to stay with UD, JMU, ODU, GSU & TU in the FBS, other schools with similar institutional profiles. Why would HU, NU, UNCW & Drexel oppose an FBS FB league if it only served to elevate the status of the league and, thus, improve their profiles and potential access to BCS money?

I'm not saying this will happen or that it's likely to happen, only that it appears to be remotely possible as of right now. Again, if there's anything in NCAA bylaws that would theoretically prohibit the idea, I'd like to read it.

[DFW HOYA]

Some PL faculty (and a name from the past) add their voices to the discussion:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/12/23/patriot_league_delays_decision_on_football_scholar ships

[Sly Fox]

Wow, Henfan. That is indeed a very interesting wrinkle that I hadn't factored into my thought process. The only potential hiccup I could see would be the fact that the additional FBS schools would probably have to be affiliates under this scenario ... unless the CAA is ready to mega-size in all sports.

As for the NCAA being willing to allow a new league, the organization has shown little will power in enforcing its own by-laws when it comes to the FBS division. Does anyone remember how the Mountain West was formed? Or is anyone really believing that the NCAA won't provide some cover for the WAC as they go through their massive overhaul the next few years that is dependent on FCS schools that supposedly aren't even eligible to move up based on the current moratorium? Obviously there are going to be BCS conferences & schools that will have some sway. In football there is no tournament to split revenues so the BCS schools really could be an ally since this really wouldn't likely have an impact on their bottom lines ... but it would provide some more scheduling opportunities.

The more I ruminate on this hypothetical scenario the more it grows on me. Thanks, henfan!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Some PL faculty (and a name from the past) add their voices to the discussion:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/12/23/patriot_league_delays_decision_on_football_scholar ships

To summarize:

"Pro" observers: "It will cost more, but the caliber of academic player will go up, the league will become more competitive, and survive."

"Anti" observers: "Intercollegiate athletics is a cesspool. I dunno, I just don't like it."

To recap: the pro-scholly side has a variety of different reasons for wanting them, partially competitive and partially academic, while remaining mindful of the issue of cost. The anti-scholly side has one "fact" that isn't even correct ("adding scholarships will necessitate having to lower admissions standards to fill football rosters") and, well, a bunch of bad feelings about athletics in general that they're the spawn of the devil.

[youwouldno]

Just looking for some bylaw that would prohibit the scenario I've outlined.

As for the current CAA Football having to approve a plan like that, that's only partially true. Lots of speculation here but you need to remember that CAA Football (CAAFB) and the Colonial Athletic Assoc. (CAA) are separate entities. Some members of CAAFB have no legislative recourse in CAA matters; however, CAA members who are not members of CAAFB have votes in all CAAFB membership matters (i.e.- GMU, VCU, Drexel, HU, NU, and UNCW).

If, say, a block of the existing CAAFB members (say, UD, JMU, TU, ODU, GSU) were to withdrawal from CAAFB in favor of the CAA FBS league, schools like UMaine, UNH, UR, UMass (for now), & VU (for now) would have zero voice in the matter. The CAA FBS league could be augmented by 2-3 FB affiliates.

For the sake of argument, let's just say W&M opposes. Realistically, what other CAA school with a vote would oppose and why? If GMU & VCU land FB programs, it's tough to imagine they wouldn't want to stay with UD, JMU, ODU, GSU & TU in the FBS, other schools with similar institutional profiles. Why would HU, NU, UNCW & Drexel oppose an FBS FB league if it only served to elevate the status of the league and, thus, improve their profiles and potential access to BCS money?

I'm not saying this will happen or that it's likely to happen, only that it appears to be remotely possible as of right now. Again, if there's anything in NCAA bylaws that would theoretically prohibit the idea, I'd like to read it.

Towson, GMU, VCU going FBS? Are you serious? If you look that far into the future there may not even be the same division structure, not to mention all the other variables.

I don't know what might happen in 2030. But in the foreseeable future the CAA won't be an FBS football conference. The basketball schools know that they wouldn't be getting any BCS money because the conference wouldn't be good enough, assuming the BCS is even still around, and the football playing members will be devoting more resources to that sport. At least some of the football schools would be looking to move to a better conference from day 1, particularly JMU and App St who desperately want into C-USA. The CAA full membership is much more focused on basketball than football, and wants to keep it that way.

[Sly Fox]

That far into the future? How long do you think it takes to set up a program if you have the resources? UTSA already has accepted an FBS invitation and it hasn't even played an actual game yet. Once decisions are made then the process can move along fairly rapidly. And if the FBS carrot is dangling in front of administrators, the cart can really start moving along more quickly in Fairfax & Richmond. The league needs to stop thinking from a 1995 mindset if they want to keep pace in the years ahead. Can our PL brothers in Easton & NYC give me a witness?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I just sent the following comment to the Inside Higher Ed article. We'll see if it gets posted:

* * * * * *

Well-meaning people take positions on both sides of the Patriot League athletic aid debate. The Patriot League consists of small, private institutions with traditionally strong academic profiles. But they also share a long athletic heritage through which, for the better part, they have competed at the highest level of competition in college athletics. Many Patriot League alumni believe that heritage is a valuable component of the overall experience offered to students by Patriot League colleges.

All students desiring to participate in varsity athletics at Patriot League colleges must qualify for admission under the Patriot League's "Academic Index." The Academic Index establishes an academic floor calculated from a combination of grades and standardized test scores. It applies to all Patriot League student-athletes, whether or not the student receives merit-based athletic aid.

The Academic Index ensures that all student-athletes are academically representative of league members' student bodies as a whole. Patriot League students participating in other scholarship sports presently are the only scholarship students in the nation subject to formalized, league-wide academic requirements. The Academic Index, therefore, sets Patriot League members apart from all other NCAA institutions, anywhere, at any level.

Mr. Rothkopf, a former Lafayette College president, is aware of the Academic Index but he chose not to make it a part of his published comments. It would have been particularly helpful for Mr. Rothkopf to mention the Academic Index in order to provide your readers with an accurate, unbiased assessment of the Patriot League football scholarship debate.

Most observers rationally believe that scholarships, coupled with the Academic Index, will improve, rather than diminish, the overall academic profile of football-playing students at Patriot League colleges.

[henfan]

Towson, GMU, VCU going FBS? Are you serious?

Not serious at all, simply providing a context for how the CAA could possibly approach FBS reclassification at some point long before 2030. GMU and VCU are two huge institutions for whom FBS FB would not be such a fantasy should the opportunity be available to move with conference partners & rivals JMU and ODU. Agree that TU would be a real stretch as of today but FBS FB is not completely outside the stretch of imagination under the scenario I presented.

There may be additional opportunities for FB programs who didn't want to be part of a potential FBS FB league to join up with NEC or PL schools at some point.

Note that I am not presenting this as a probable scenario, just one avenue that could be examined.

[youwouldno]

That far into the future? How long do you think it takes to set up a program if you have the resources? UTSA already has accepted an FBS invitation and it hasn't even played an actual game yet. Once decisions are made then the process can move along fairly rapidly. And if the FBS carrot is dangling in front of administrators, the cart can really start moving along more quickly in Fairfax & Richmond. The league needs to stop thinking from a 1995 mindset if they want to keep pace in the years ahead. Can our PL brothers in Easton & NYC give me a witness?

Actually it takes a long time when you don't have a stadium. UTSA: Alamodome. Ga. State: Georgia Dome. ODU: Foreman Field.

VCU: Nothing. GMU: Nothing. They aren't even close to playing any kind of football... the chances they are FBS in 10 years is absolute zero. In 20 years it's maybe 10% for VCU and 5% for GMU, on the optimistic side.

***

henfan: This is the same problem for any realistic scenario that keeps the CAA intact. The time line just doesn't work. Too much else is going to happen in the interim, even assuming all kinds of fantastic developments come to pass (e.g., GMU football- don't hold your breath).

[henfan]

Actually, VCU is currently negotiating the purchase of 20K-seat City Field in Richmond, so we'll see if that comes to fruition. True, GMU has no large FB facility but has the space to build on its athletic complex.

Stay tuned. More news to follow about FB from both schools in 2011. I'll hold off making any predictions until after I hear their plans.

[Sly Fox]

GMU certainly could follow the path of UTSA & GSU with plenty of nearby pro facilities who probably wouldn't mind a temporary tenant for additional income. While that is not a likely scenario, it only goes to show that things can proceed rather quickly once the wheels are set in motion. All that said, I don't have a clue if either school has administrators who have that type of vision. But having the availability of stepping right into an FBS league alongside traditional rivals would certainly have some appeal.

[blukeys]

Towson, GMU, VCU going FBS? Are you serious? If you look that far into the future there may not even be the same division structure, not to mention all the other variables.

I don't know what might happen in 2030. But in the foreseeable future the CAA won't be an FBS football conference. The basketball schools know that they wouldn't be getting any BCS money because the conference wouldn't be good enough, assuming the BCS is even still around, and the football playing members will be devoting more resources to that sport. At least some of the football schools would be looking to move to a better conference from day 1, particularly JMU and App St who desperately want into C-USA. The CAA full membership is much more focused on basketball than football, and wants to keep it that way.

I think you missed Henfan's original point. There is nothing stopping the CAA from sponsoring both a FCS and BCS football conference. As for the Basketball schools, they have always complained that recruiting is tougher for FCS schools because they are seen not as good as BCS schools. If Nova goes BCS basketball will be a major factor as it was with Western Kentucky.

[DFW HOYA]

To summarize:

"Pro" observers: "It will cost more, but the caliber of academic player will go up, the league will become more competitive, and survive."

"Anti" observers: "Intercollegiate athletics is a cesspool. I dunno, I just don't like it."


And, the "Georgetown" observers: "The athletics improve a little, the academic caliber doesn't really change at all, but it's all a moot point if you don't have the revenue to offer scholarships in the first place."

FWIW, if Georgetown sold out every home game at $100 a ticket, including students, it would provide only enough revenue for 12 football scholarships a year. Until you solve the riddle of the Sphinx...er...MSF, you can't talk about affording scholarships.

[ngineer]

I just sent the following comment to the Inside Higher Ed article. We'll see if it gets posted:

* * * * * *

Well-meaning people take positions on both sides of the Patriot League athletic aid debate. The Patriot League consists of small, private institutions with traditionally strong academic profiles. But they also share a long athletic heritage through which, for the better part, they have competed at the highest level of competition in college athletics. Many Patriot League alumni believe that heritage is a valuable component of the overall experience offered to students by Patriot League colleges.

All students desiring to participate in varsity athletics at Patriot League colleges must qualify for admission under the Patriot League's "Academic Index." The Academic Index establishes an academic floor calculated from a combination of grades and standardized test scores. It applies to all Patriot League student-athletes, whether or not the student receives merit-based athletic aid.

The Academic Index ensures that all student-athletes are academically representative of league members' student bodies as a whole. Patriot League students participating in other scholarship sports presently are the only scholarship students in the nation subject to formalized, league-wide academic requirements. The Academic Index, therefore, sets Patriot League members apart from all other NCAA institutions, anywhere, at any level.

Mr. Rothkopf, a former Lafayette College president, is aware of the Academic Index but he chose not to make it a part of his published comments. It would have been particularly helpful for Mr. Rothkopf to mention the Academic Index in order to provide your readers with an accurate, unbiased assessment of the Patriot League football scholarship debate.

Most observers rationally believe that scholarships, coupled with the Academic Index, will improve, rather than diminish, the overall academic profile of football-playing students at Patriot League colleges.

Very nicely done. Painful as that is to say...(;-)

[MplsBison]

Again - if Lehigh and Colgate (and whoever) leave the PL, they have to leave in all sports. I've seen no indication from the president of either institution that the immediate urge to award a full slate of football scholarships is so great that they are apt to do so.

But I could be wrong - the Lehigh posters here seem to think that football scholarships are Alice Gast's number one, most pressing institutional priority and that she has one foot out the Center Valley doors right now.

Army and Navy are members of the Patriot League. They play basketball, lacrosse, tennis, etc. in the Patriot League. But they *do not* play football in the Patriot League FCS football conference.


Thus, Lehigh and Colgate have the exact same right to play football somewhere else that Navy and Army do.

[MplsBison]

I just sent the following comment to the Inside Higher Ed article. We'll see if it gets posted:

* * * * * *

Well-meaning people take positions on both sides of the Patriot League athletic aid debate. The Patriot League consists of small, private institutions with traditionally strong academic profiles. But they also share a long athletic heritage through which, for the better part, they have competed at the highest level of competition in college athletics. Many Patriot League alumni believe that heritage is a valuable component of the overall experience offered to students by Patriot League colleges.

All students desiring to participate in varsity athletics at Patriot League colleges must qualify for admission under the Patriot League's "Academic Index." The Academic Index establishes an academic floor calculated from a combination of grades and standardized test scores. It applies to all Patriot League student-athletes, whether or not the student receives merit-based athletic aid.

The Academic Index ensures that all student-athletes are academically representative of league members' student bodies as a whole. Patriot League students participating in other scholarship sports presently are the only scholarship students in the nation subject to formalized, league-wide academic requirements. The Academic Index, therefore, sets Patriot League members apart from all other NCAA institutions, anywhere, at any level.

Mr. Rothkopf, a former Lafayette College president, is aware of the Academic Index but he chose not to make it a part of his published comments. It would have been particularly helpful for Mr. Rothkopf to mention the Academic Index in order to provide your readers with an accurate, unbiased assessment of the Patriot League football scholarship debate.

Most observers rationally believe that scholarships, coupled with the Academic Index, will improve, rather than diminish, the overall academic profile of football-playing students at Patriot League colleges.

"The Academic Index ensures that all student-athletes are academically representative of league members' student bodies as a whole."


The conference has no ethical basis to force such an index on the member schools. The schools' admissions depts. should have sole responsibility to ensure that student-athletes are representative of the student body.

[MplsBison]

And, the "Georgetown" observers: "The athletics improve a little, the academic caliber doesn't really change at all, but it's all a moot point if you don't have the revenue to offer scholarships in the first place."

FWIW, if Georgetown sold out every home game at $100 a ticket, including students, it would provide only enough revenue for 12 football scholarships a year. Until you solve the riddle of the Sphinx...er...MSF, you can't talk about affording scholarships.

Georgetown deserves all the sympathy in the world from the FCS community for having a top rated academic program, a billion dollar endowment and a top 10 basketball team in the Big East. Woe is obviously you.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown deserves all the sympathy in the world from the FCS community for having a top rated academic program, a billion dollar endowment and a top 10 basketball team in the Big East. Woe is obviously you.

No sympathy asked for, but this should be a significantly better program with the visibility and location it has.

Absent a revenue base, there is the tendency for objects at rest to stay at rest.

[youwouldno]

I think you missed Henfan's original point. There is nothing stopping the CAA from sponsoring both a FCS and BCS football conference. As for the Basketball schools, they have always complained that recruiting is tougher for FCS schools because they are seen not as good as BCS schools. If Nova goes BCS basketball will be a major factor as it was with Western Kentucky.

No offense but, though henfan's argument has some merit on the surface, that doesn't mean the NCAA would go along. Message board speculation is just that.

The basketball schools don't care about FBS vs. FCS. It certainly didn't drag down the A-10 when their name was attached to the now-CAA FCS football conference.

[MplsBison]

No sympathy asked for, but this should be a significantly better program with the visibility and location it has.

Absent a revenue base, there is the tendency for objects at rest to stay at rest.

Actually, I rather despise schools that refuse to let football go at the varsity level (ie, they want a football team just for the sake of having a varsity football team) and refuse to fund it at the DI level.

It's nothing more than glorified club football and it doesn't belong in DI.

I just don't care anymore what the excuses are at Georgetown. I feel your pain, but I just don't have any sympathy. Fund the team at the proper DI level or drop the varsity team and go club. That's the legitimate choice and the NCAA shouldn't not allow a third way.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Very nicely done. Painful as that is to say...(;-)

Fraternal motivations take precedence at times, 'ngineer. When taking inventory in critical circumstances, common allegiances tend to prevail over noble rivalry, whatsoever I might at times utter in defense of my chair. :)

As for MplsBison - take a breather, will you? This is not your debate.

[ngineer]

My comments posted at the "Insider":

The premise put forth by Mr. Rothkopf is wrong. Evidence is clear, at least at Lehigh, that with the offering of merit based athletic scholarships the academic quality of the student-athlete has improved markedly. With maintaining the Academic Index, the PL schools are able to sustain the academic profile of its athletes as representative of the student body.
Though a non-PL sport, Lehigh's nationally ranked wrestling program transitioned to scholarships in the mid-1990's after suffering through years of mediocrity trying to compete with the likes of Iowa, Penn State, Oklahoma State, et al. With the advent of scholarships, Lehigh's wrestling program has not only returned to the elite level of collegiate wrestling, the academic profile of the team has also been enhanced.
Schools such as Stanford, Vanderbilt, and Duke have shown that if your administration has integrity, relative to maintaining admissions requirements, providing scholarships can improve a school's national profile.
Providing merit scholarships to students who are also outstanding athletes also enhances a campus. A student who can balance the competing demands of studies and athletics at a demanding academic institution displays the type of leadership and management skills our society needs.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Thanks, 'ngineer, cr, DFW and LFN for adding your insight. I take back at least a third of the things I've written about you guys in the past. But now Prof. Jeffery Mask of Wesley College writes on Inside Higher Ed,


Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics defines a good life according to what is a distinctively human life. Happiness is not pleasure, and it is not achieved by following the crowd. 2100 years later J. S. Mill echoed that judgment when he noted that it would be preferable to be Socrates dissatisfied than to be a satisfied fool. Neither of these philosophers addressed anything remotely resembling intercollegiate athletics--or even PE.

What on earth does football have to do with a college education? Why do colleges exist in the United States at all?

So I wrote,


Aristotle described "Arete" - the concept of fulfillment of purpose by living to one's full potential though athletic contest. John Stuart Mill, of course, believed in examining human sources of "higher pleasure." Mill questioned not the value of sport, but *which* sport best lends value to that examination.

Reference to these great scholars necessarily supports the concept of excellence in collegiate athletics. Should not Patriot League athletes follow their noble lead?

Am I wrong here, fellow Patriot League scholars? Taking Aristotle and JS Mill so violently out of context just because you think your fellow academicians will believe anything you quote?

[Go...gate]

Fraternal motivations take precedence at times, 'ngineer. When taking inventory in critical circumstances, common allegiances tend to prevail over noble rivalry, whatsoever I might at times utter in defense of my chair. :)

As for MplsBison - take a breather, will you? This is not your debate.

Just wanted to say that your comments on that site were very good. Well done.

[Go...gate]

My comments posted at the "Insider":

The premise put forth by Mr. Rothkopf is wrong. Evidence is clear, at least at Lehigh, that with the offering of merit based athletic scholarships the academic quality of the student-athlete has improved markedly. With maintaining the Academic Index, the PL schools are able to sustain the academic profile of its athletes as representative of the student body.
Though a non-PL sport, Lehigh's nationally ranked wrestling program transitioned to scholarships in the mid-1990's after suffering through years of mediocrity trying to compete with the likes of Iowa, Penn State, Oklahoma State, et al. With the advent of scholarships, Lehigh's wrestling program has not only returned to the elite level of collegiate wrestling, the academic profile of the team has also been enhanced.
Schools such as Stanford, Vanderbilt, and Duke have shown that if your administration has integrity, relative to maintaining admissions requirements, providing scholarships can improve a school's national profile.
Providing merit scholarships to students who are also outstanding athletes also enhances a campus. A student who can balance the competing demands of studies and athletics at a demanding academic institution displays the type of leadership and management skills our society needs.

Nicely done as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thanks, 'ngineer, cr, DFW and LFN for adding your insight. I take back at least a third of the things I've written about you guys in the past.

Let's see: 2,560 posts, divided by a bit less than a third.... wow, that's a lot. I appreciate it. xlolx


Am I wrong here, fellow Patriot League scholars? Taking Aristotle and JS Mill so violently out of context just because you think your fellow academicians will believe anything you quote?

Agreed! But there was this other whopper that the next guy put in there, too:


Currently, the GPAs and test scores of incoming football players probably is higher than what they would be if athletic scholarships were offered because more scholarship athletes with marginal test scores and GPAs would be attracted by football scholarships than currently are interested in Patriot League schools without athletic merit awards.

I guess he may not have a sort-of masters degree in the AI and the banding system that we all do, but it's distressing to always have to repeat over and over again, "The AI prevents this... The AI prevents this...." He also seems to point to an interesting theory... the worse the football team, the better the grades on the team. He should look at the latest team with a 100% graduation rate of its football athletes... Colgate. xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I guess he may not have a sort-of masters degree in the AI and the banding system that we all do, but it's distressing to always have to repeat over and over again, "The AI prevents this... The AI prevents this...." He also seems to point to an interesting theory... the worse the football team, the better the grades on the team. He should look at the latest team with a 100% graduation rate of its football athletes... Colgate.

Not only that, but as you quote,


more scholarship athletes with marginal test scores and GPAs would be attracted by football scholarships than currently are interested in Patriot League schools without athletic merit awards.

"Attracted by?" Meaning that more prospective student-athletes would be inclined to apply to scholarship-enabled Patriot schools than otherwise would be the case? I think that settles it, don't you?

The more that apply, the more selective the colleges can be. Well, I'll be damned.

[Go...gate]

Let's see: 2,560 posts, divided by a bit less than a third.... wow, that's a lot. I appreciate it. xlolx



Agreed! But there was this other whopper that the next guy put in there, too:



I guess he may not have a sort-of masters degree in the AI and the banding system that we all do, but it's distressing to always have to repeat over and over again, "The AI prevents this... The AI prevents this...." He also seems to point to an interesting theory... the worse the football team, the better the grades on the team. He should look at the latest team with a 100% graduation rate of its football athletes... Colgate. xlolx

Yep; little ol' Colgate. But that knucklehead academic would probably say that we let in a bunch of knuckle-draggers and carried them, which is ridiculous. Let's face it, that may happen at Oklahoma, but not at many, if not all schools in FCS. Too many qualified kids who want admission (and can stay admitted) are waiting in line to get in.

[RichH2]

Ideologues , particularly academic ones ,are interested in only those facts which fit there preconceptions. Read again all the posts on Insider. Cannot ask for a better crew to defend us . The prejudice against football among some academics is much more irrational and ingrained than I ever thought. Of course.I wuld not be expected by them to understand the true complexities of the issue being an old football player and all.

[Fordham]

Guys, you've all done a great job of respectfully articulating the key points. Well done.

It truly is maddening to see the same baseless arguments used over and over but keep plugging away!

[MplsBison]

Fraternal motivations take precedence at times, 'ngineer. When taking inventory in critical circumstances, common allegiances tend to prevail over noble rivalry, whatsoever I might at times utter in defense of my chair. :)

As for MplsBison - take a breather, will you? This is not your debate.

Any school in FCS rightfully should take interest and have something to say about the situation in the PL, even if it doesn't have a vote or a seat at the table.


The goal, simply, should be to make the division as competitive as possible, both among itself and against FBS teams.

The clear way forward towards that end is to allow scholarships to be given by those PL schools that want to do that and drop the need-based nonsense. That's the best thing that could happen.

If it means that the PL *football conference* has to end, so be it. Lehigh's and Colgate's full-scholarship football programs will find homes elsewhere in FCS while their basketball teams continue to play games against Army, Navy and Lafayette in the Patriot League, as usual.

[the last indian]

This article, copied from the Ivy input on AGS, illustrates the edge that Fordham will have in competing with the Ivies in recruiting, and the disadvantage others will have.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/college/7354159.html

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just sumbitted my Patriot League scholarship op-ed to the New York Times. We'll see what happens.

[DFW HOYA]

Just submitted my Patriot League scholarship op-ed to the New York Times. We'll see what happens.

Hope it goes well.

In reality, this issue lays low until about June of this year, when Colgate looks to Lehigh and Lehigh looks back at Colgate and asks, "so, which one of us will offer scholarships this fall and be declared ineligible for the autobid as a result"?

A Fordham team with scholarships is grudgingly tolerated by the league. A second team opens a door. If it becomes three, the league's policy is effectively trumped by its own membership.

[Seawolf97]

Hope it goes well.

In reality, this issue lays low until about June of this year, when Colgate looks to Lehigh and Lehigh looks back at Colgate and asks, "so, which one of us will offer scholarships this fall and be declared ineligible for the autobid as a result"?

A Fordham team with scholarships is grudgingly tolerated by the league. A second team opens a door. If it becomes three, the league's policy is effectively trumped by its own membership.
This is an event well worth watching. Would Holy Cross folow?

[MplsBison]

This is an event well worth watching. Would Holy Cross folow?

Who cares about any team that isn't interested in the opportunity to be more competitive that giving scholarships would bring? (while having no effect on the academics)

Those teams that won't play for the future deserve to be relegated to the past.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://goprincetontigers.blogspot.com/2010/12/bowl-season.html


At the same time, there are issues facing Ivy League football, some of which are outside of the league's control. The biggest is what direction the Patriot League goes in.

The Patriot presidents recently tabled for two years a proposal to adopt football scholarships across the board. Still, two years isn't a very long time, and it's not hard to envision any number of things happening, not the least of which is the breakup of the league itself, at least for football.

How does this affect the Ivy League? Well, of the 24 non-league games the Ivy teams played this year, 17 were against Patriot teams.

If the Patriot teams go in different directions, the possible opponents for the Ivy League dwindles. If they all go scholarships, that could be even worse for the Ivy League, since it would impact scheduling and probably recruiting.

Interesting on 2 fronts:

1) TB admits if the Patriot League starts offering scholarships, it will probably affect the IL in a negative way.
2) TB also implies that the IL could cease to schedule the PL if they offer scholarships.

Talk about sour grapes... Am I the only one who is getting sick and tired of the IL thinking PL schools should merely be thrilled by their near presence in football?

[henfan]

http://goprincetontigers.blogspot.com/2010/12/bowl-season.htmlAm I the only one who is getting sick and tired of the IL thinking PL schools should merely be thrilled by their near presence in football?

Count me in. I really wonder the quantitative positives derived from the PL-IL scheduling agreement for FB from the PL's perspective.

[DFW HOYA]

If they haven't already, I'm sure the Ancient Eight has communicated through channels that it won't be scheduling PL scholarship teams in regular series going forward. A here and there game, perhaps, but no more home and away.

There will still be enough teams for the Ivies to play if Colgate and Lehigh add scholarships.

[RichH2]

And where will they go? Empty threat. While PL might be scholarship some day , our academic standards will keep us and Ivies comparable. Just even the playing field a bit.

[DFW HOYA]

And where will they go? Empty threat. While PL might be scholarship some day , our academic standards will keep us and Ivies comparable. Just even the playing field a bit.

Not so empty. Assume three PL schools go full scholarship (Leh, Colgate, HC), three do not (Lafayette, Bucknell, Georgetown). The Ivy has 24 non-conference games to fill and commits to do so as follows:

4-Lafayette
4-Bucknell
4-Georgetown
2-Davidson
2-Marist

That leaves each Ivy only one game a year to fill, across an assortment of Pioneer and NEC teams. Suddenly, Princeton can but doesn't "need" to schedule Colgate anymore.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There will still be enough teams for the Ivies to play if Colgate and Lehigh add scholarships.

If you take away *any* school that offers merit aid, that's not the case. Good bye Wagner, Central Connecticut State, Albany, Stony Brook, Villanova... .

The only "pure" Division I non-scholarship football-playing school east of Ohio and north of the Mason/Dixon line is Marist. That's four OOC games, and, say, Drake, Butler, Campbell and Jacksonville get the others. That's an awful lot of travel for these teams, with questionable value for the IL schools in question. No disrespect to Campbell, but is that a recruiting hotbed or a huge untapped academic vein?

This attitude makes it seem like the only criteria the IL really has is that will only schedule schools that it thinks it can push around, rather than have anything to do with academic indexes or scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'll be a spoil-sport once again. I like going to the Ivy games. I like watching my college play familiar opponents in storied venues on beautiful campuses, just like they always have. I like it when Penn and Columbia and Harvard come to Easton and the Pards win. I don't want to travel to some dome somewhere, or watch the team play under an architecturally obtuse tower of luxury boxes surrounded by hectares of asphalt.

I want to be competitive as well. I'm not at all opposed to scholarships in the PL combined with the academic index (which is essential in my mind), provided the schools can afford them. I favor the introduction of scholarships. But I am opposed to abandoning century-old opponents just to play, well, whomever. I don't think I'm bending over for Big Ivy here. I just want to keep the schedule and the opponents the same as they've always been. If that means adapting to a financial aid system that Big Ivy can live with, so be it.

[DFW HOYA]

The Ivies aren't adopting a "no-scholarship" policy on opponents, but they will act in their own self-interest to schedule competitive (read=winnable) games. The lessons of Yale-Connecticut and Dartmouth-UNH were that even traditional series that grow non-competitive aren't a sure thing, regardless of traditions. It does these schools little good to lose 63-14 at home when the smallish crowds could just as soon see Old Nassau take it out on Georgetown or Davidson or even Delaware State instead. If Penn can stay on the field with Villanova, fine. But it's not like Penn has to schedule them every year as a matter of course, either.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Perhaps a different thread next year can be devoted to the "essential" Academic Index. 230 or so schools seem to do just fine without it, including a few rather academically promising schools, too. What are PL fans so afraid of if there is not one for them?

Perhaps a separate thread could be started, but my view will never change. My college is tiny and it cannot compete with mammoth institutions that can bury a team full of marginal players without affecting the institution's overall academic stature. And nothing about a each-to-its-own-academic policy Patriot League appeals to me. I will not favor and flexibility for and existing or prospective league member regarding AI compliance.

Colleges that want full scholarships with no academic standards for recruits have may other conferences from which to choose.

[Go...gate]

I'll be a spoil-sport once again. I like going to the Ivy games. I like watching my college play familiar opponents in storied venues on beautiful campuses, just like they always have. I like it when Penn and Columbia and Harvard come to Easton and the Pards win. I don't want to travel to some dome somewhere, or watch the team play under an architecturally obtuse tower of luxury boxes surrounded by hectares of asphalt.

I want to be competitive as well. I'm not at all opposed to scholarships in the PL combined with the academic index (which is essential in my mind), provided the schools can afford them. I favor the introduction of scholarships. But I am opposed to abandoning century-old opponents just to play, well, whomever. I don't think I'm bending over for Big Ivy here. I just want to keep the schedule and the opponents the same as they've always been. If that means adapting to a financial aid system that Big Ivy can live with, so be it.

I guess you'd better call me a "spoilsport" as well, then.

I happen to agree with you.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Ivies aren't adopting a "no-scholarship" policy on opponents, but they will act in their own self-interest to schedule competitive (read=winnable) games.

Translation: We're going to stop scheduling certain Patriot League schools because they now have scholarships, but we'll continue to schedule those scholarship schools we feel we can push around.

The Ivy League, acting in its own self-interest, tries to punish out of spite the Patriot League, whose cardinal sin is... acting in its own self-interest. It's positively Shakespearean.

[RichH2]

DFW, my assumption is merit aid will be all or nothing for PL . In your scenario, yup Il would still have those schools you mentioned but there will no longer be a PL at which point I really dont care what IL does to punish PL for having the temerity to go against their wishes as it will no longer exist under your theory

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let me be clear: I like playing Ivy League schools, and I like that league-wide association. I like having academic standards that set us apart from most Division I schools, and I identify with being a high-academic school.

But I would not do ANYTHING to preserve that association with the IL, especially when PL schools are being treated like children by our supposed "equals" in competition. If the IL treats us like dirt, or are willing to drop us on the schedule for not meeting a standard that their other opponents don't need to meet, it's to their detriment. Whatever happens, I don't think Lehigh will be hurting for OOC opponents.

[Go...gate]

Let me be clear: I like playing Ivy League schools, and I like that league-wide association. I like having academic standards that set us apart from most Division I schools, and I identify with being a high-academic school.

But I would not do ANYTHING to preserve that association with the IL, especially when PL schools are being treated like children by our supposed "equals" in competition. If the IL treats us like dirt, or are willing to drop us on the schedule for not meeting a standard that their other opponents don't need to meet, it's to their detriment. Whatever happens, I don't think Lehigh will be hurting for OOC opponents.

Nor will Colgate. But we have a longer historical relationship with the Ivy, with many more games, than any other PL school. To throw that out would be regrettable.

[Fordham]

Perhaps a separate thread could be started, but my view will never change. My college is tiny and it cannot compete with mammoth institutions that can bury a team full of marginal players without affecting the institution's overall academic stature. And nothing about a each-to-its-own-academic policy Patriot League appeals to me. I will not favor and flexibility for and existing or prospective league member regarding AI compliance.

Colleges that want full scholarships with no academic standards for recruits have may other conferences from which to choose.

Just curious about what it is that makes you think that eliminating the AI would mean that admissions at LC or any PL school would begin admitting marginal-academic players?

[Neighbor2]

Yeah,

Screw plaid trousers! That's so 60ish, anyway.

Each Patriot League school needs to do what it believes will renew interest in its football effort, despite what any other league wants for itself. I agree, both Lehigh and Colgate will have no trouble finding other opponents, if necessary.

[Sader87]

Nor will Colgate. But we have a longer historical relationship with the Ivy, with many more games, than any other PL school. To throw that out would be regrettable.

Cough, cough...I beg to differ.

[Go...gate]

Yeah,

Screw plaid trousers! That's so 60ish, anyway.
Each Patriot League school needs to do what it believes will renew interest in its football effort, despite what any other league wants for itself. I agree, both Lehigh and Colgate will have no trouble finding other opponents, if necessary.

I had a closet full of plaid trousers - think I may still have a couple that the moths didn't eat. They were GREAT on cold days (like this week). I have gained a few pounds since then, though. Strictly khakis and flannels now...

On a more serious note, however, all of us have some philosophical divergency on the issue. We all want athletic programs (including football) which can compete at the Division I level. We want scholarships. But some of us like our traditional opponents. I would miss Colgate not playing Cornell, Yale, Princeton, Brown, etc. - they are all traditional opponents. I am sure it would be no different if Wofford, Presbyterian and Furman all of a sudden could or would not play each other any more.

[Go...gate]

Cough, cough...I beg to differ.

Maybe in dates of series, but I doubt in number of games.

[Sader87]

Maybe in dates of series, but I doubt in number of games.

As Casey Stengel once said: "you can look it up." I haven't, but we've played Dartmouth 74 times, Harvard 63 and Brown 56 times for starters.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

All of us have some philosophical divergency on the issue. We all want athletic programs (including football) which can compete at the Division I level. We want scholarships. But some of us like our traditional opponents. I would miss Colgate not playing Cornell, Yale, Princeton, Brown, etc. - they are all traditional opponents. I am sure it would be no different if Wofford, Presbyterian and Furman all of a sudden could or would not play each other any more.

Totally true. I would miss the games against Harvard especially. But it wouldn't be the Patriot League's fault that this happened - it would be because the IL spitefully cancelled the series, to pursue... what? More synergies with Campbell? Developing a rivalry with Central Connecticut State?

[Go...gate]

As Casey Stengel once said: "you can look it up." I haven't, but we've played Dartmouth 74 times, Harvard 63 and Brown 56 times for starters.

Colgate's Ivy series:

Brown: 56 total games, Colgate leads 28-21-7. (Brown and Colgate played on Thanksgivng for nearly forty consecutive years).

Columbia: 25 total games, Colgate leads 20-4-1.

Dartmouth: 24 total games, Colgate leads 18-5-1.

Cornell: 93 total games, Cornell leads 42-48-3.

Harvard: 7 total games, Colgate leads 5-2-0.

Pennsylvania: 8 total games, Pennsylvania leads 5-2-1.

Princeton: 52 total games, Princeton leads 26-25-1.

Yale: 38 total games, Yale leads 25-10-3.

Total Colgate games against the Ivy: 303. Record of 150-136-17 (.523).

Holy Cross' Ivy series:

Brown: 58 total games, Holy Cross leads 32-21-3.

Columbia: 8 total games, Holy Cross leads 6-2-0.

Cornell: 5 total games, Cornell leads 5-0-0.

Dartmouth: 74 total games, series is tied at 35-35-4.

Harvard: 64 total games, Harvard leads 39-23-2.

Pennsylvania: 5 total games, Holy Cross leads 3-2-0.

Princeton: 10 total games, Princeton leads 7-3-0.

Yale: 31 total games, Yale leads 27-4-0.

Total Holy Cross games against the Ivy: 255. Record of 106-140-9 (.433)

N.B. Colgate-Holy Cross series commenced in 1917.

There have been 73 games, with Holy Cross leading 39-29-5.

Just my two cents, but we should become each other's traditional year-end game.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colgate vs Holy Cross: Mine's bigger than yours.

But I concur with Go...Gate - after playing Penn 87 times over the years, it would be bizarre for the Pards to abandon that rivalry, or the 42 Columbia games or the 45 Princeton games (notwithstanding The Curse).

[DFW HOYA]

Colgate's Ivy series:
Brown: 56 total games, Colgate leads 28-21-7. (Brown and Colgate played on Thanksgivng for nearly forty consecutive years).
Columbia: 25 total games, Colgate leads 20-4-1.
Dartmouth: 24 total games, Colgate leads 18-5-1.
Cornell: 93 total games, Cornell leads 42-48-3.
Harvard: 7 total games, Colgate leads 5-2-0.
Pennsylvania: 8 total games, Pennsylvania leads 5-2-1.
Princeton: 52 total games, Princeton leads 26-25-1.
Yale: 38 total games, Yale leads 25-10-3.
Total Colgate games against the Ivy: 303. Record of 150-136-17 (.523).


That's a lot more than Georgetown's limited experience with the Ivy, even since joining the PL. Then again, it has 95 games all-time against ACC schools (46-42-7 among 10 schools, no games with Clemson or Florida St.), back when these schools were considered more natural rivals. Anyway, on to the Ivies:

Brown: 2 total games, 2 since 2001. Brown leads 2-0-0.

Columbia: 2 total games, 1 since 2001. Columbia leads 2-0-0.

Dartmouth: 1 total game, 0 since 2001. Georgetown leads 1-0-0.

Cornell: 3 total games, 2 since 2001. Cornell leads 2-1-0.

Harvard: 0 total games.

Pennsylvania: 6 total games, 2 since 2001. Pennsylvania leads 5-0-1.

Princeton: 5 total games, none since 2001. Princeton leads 5-0-0.

Yale: 4 total games, 4 since 2001. Yale leads 4-0-0.

Total Georgetown games against the Ivy: 23, 11 since 2001. Record of 2-20-1 (.108)

[Sader87]

Colgate's Ivy series:

Brown: 56 total games, Colgate leads 28-21-7. (Brown and Colgate played on Thanksgivng for nearly forty consecutive years).

Columbia: 25 total games, Colgate leads 20-4-1.

Dartmouth: 24 total games, Colgate leads 18-5-1.

Cornell: 93 total games, Cornell leads 42-48-3.

Harvard: 7 total games, Colgate leads 5-2-0.

Pennsylvania: 8 total games, Pennsylvania leads 5-2-1.

Princeton: 52 total games, Princeton leads 26-25-1.

Yale: 38 total games, Yale leads 25-10-3.

Total Colgate games against the Ivy: 303. Record of 150-136-17 (.523).

Holy Cross' Ivy series:

Brown: 58 total games, Holy Cross leads 32-21-3.

Columbia: 8 total games, Holy Cross leads 6-2-0.

Cornell: 5 total games, Cornell leads 5-0-0.

Dartmouth: 74 total games, series is tied at 35-35-4.

Harvard: 64 total games, Harvard leads 39-23-2.

Pennsylvania: 5 total games, Holy Cross leads 3-2-0.

Princeton: 10 total games, Princeton leads 7-3-0.

Yale: 31 total games, Yale leads 27-4-0.

Total Holy Cross games against the Ivy: 255. Record of 106-140-9 (.433)

N.B. Colgate-Holy Cross series commenced in 1917.

There have been 73 games, with Holy Cross leading 39-29-5.

Just my two cents, but we should become each other's traditional year-end game.

I stand corrected, but to say that Colgate has played the Ivies FAR more than any other PL school is a bit presumptious. HC is roughly in the same "ballpark" as Colgate when it comes to scheduling/playing Ivy foes through the years.

Agree with you on the final game, but I don't think the PL would dare have another season ending game that may take away the "importance" of LU-LC.

[Go...gate]

I stand corrected, but to say that Colgate has played the Ivies FAR more than any other PL school is a bit presumptious. HC is roughly in the same "ballpark" as Colgate when it comes to scheduling/playing Ivy foes through the years.

Agree with you on the final game, but I don't think the PL would dare have another season ending game that may take away the "importance" of LU-LC.

Fair enough. Bottom line is that the Ivy relationship is long-standing with our two schools, among other PL member schools (Lafayette and lehigh certainly come to mind in light of their own series with Princeton, Cornell, Pennsylvania and Columbia) and not something hastily thrown away.

I would hate to think that Lafayette-Lehigh want all the attention the last week of every season to themselves.

[superman7515]

Just saw this on the conference news threads, haha...

Patriot League wisely resists call for football scholarships
(http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/log/index.php/2010/12/25/patriot-league-wisely-resists-call-for-f?blog=2#more6999)


AS COLLEGE spending on football spins out of control, the Patriot League is to be cheered for not caving in to competitive envy and boosterism. The presidents of the seven colleges and universities in the league, which include Worcester’s Holy Cross, last week tabled until 2012 a decision on whether to allow football scholarships. They should not, and the colleges and universities should open up any scholarship money that would have gone exclusively to football players to all students, based on need or academic performance.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Agree with you on the final game, but I don't think the PL would dare have another season ending game that may take away the "importance" of LU-LC.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's nonsense that Holy Cross-Colgate shouldn't be a season-ending game. Has either school even asked for it? If not, they ought to. It would do nothing to take away from Lafayette-Lehigh, and it would only serve to enhance the specter of the long-played rivalries in the league. Bucknell shouldn't be left out in the cold, however.

If Big Ivy gave a damn, they'd agree to schedule Colgate-Brown and Bucknell-Cornell at the end of the year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just saw this on the conference news threads, haha...

Patriot League wisely resists call for football scholarships
(http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/log/index.php/2010/12/25/patriot-league-wisely-resists-call-for-f?blog=2#more6999)

Already discussed on the Holy Cross and Lafayette boards. Planted by suspicious faculty?

[MplsBison]

Colgate vs Holy Cross: Mine's bigger than yours.

But I concur with Go...Gate - after playing Penn 87 times over the years, it would be bizarre for the Pards to abandon that rivalry, or the 42 Columbia games or the 45 Princeton games (notwithstanding The Curse).

DFW already spelled it out for you, letter by letter. You're just too old and stubborn to give a damn.

For rhetorical sake: what good does it do Penn to schedule a century old rivalry when they're getting blown out by a scholarship Lafayette 60-10?


You can't have scholarships and then throw out a JV team in order to keep playing the Ivies. The fact that you'd do this just to have your game reminds me of Benjamin Franklin's famous quote about those who give up necessary liberty for temporary security: you deserve neither a competitive Lafayette team nor your selfish pleasure of Ivy games.

[Bogus Megapardus]

selfish pleasure

Well put. I get to load up the car on a Saturday morning, meet up with friends and family along the way or outside the stadium, share some food and drink and enjoy a few laughs, and watch a great, historic FCS game in pleasant and familiar surroundings. Sometimes I even get into a debate or two about politics, architecture or economic theory.

It's a selfish pleasure that I work hard to enjoy. I'm not entirely certain why you think that's such a bad thing, but I'll take your word for it, I suppose.

[Sader87]

There's a happy medium between Bogus' "walk in the park" tail-gate and a "win at all cost" tail-gate....Holy Cross used to be there but sadly now fall more toward Bogus' vision of Saturday mornings/afternoons. Not that it's a bad thing, but it really isn't a D1 football atmosphere.

[Go...gate]

There's a happy medium between Bogus' "walk in the park" tail-gate and a "win at all cost" tail-gate....Holy Cross used to be there but sadly now fall more toward Bogus' vision of Saturday mornings/afternoons. Not that it's a bad thing, but it really isn't a D1 football atmosphere.

I remember in the mid-1970's when you guys had scholarships and Colgate did not, and every game was as intense as it could get and extremely competitive. That's the point - there was a time when you could have pretty competitive Division I football that way and, occasionally, break a team into the Top 20. Unfortunately, it is very unlikely that can happen anymore without scholarships of some kind.

[Franks Tanks]

I remember in the mid-1970's when you guys had scholarships and Colgate did not, and every game was as intense as it could get and extremely competitive. That's the point - there was a time when you could have pretty competitive Division I football that way and, occasionally, break a team into the Top 20. Unfortunately, it is very unlikely that can happen anymore without scholarships of some kind.

Very true. It is my understanding that many schools used a system of need based financial aid back in the day with a lot of success. Delaware, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, and even Rutgers as I understand it all offered need based financial aid in the 70's and early 80's and competed well.

While the need based aid program may be of higher moral standing in the eyes of idiot professors it is clearly an outdated model. It kills me that these academics can't understand that this is a case of a process that is good in theory, but is no longer applicable in practice in today's world.

[henfan]

Very true. It is my understanding that many schools used a system of need based financial aid back in the day with a lot of success. Delaware, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, and even Rutgers as I understand it all offered need based financial aid in the 70's and early 80's and competed well.

While the need based aid program may be of higher moral standing in the eyes of idiot professors it is clearly an outdated model. It kills me that these academics can't understand that this is a case of a process that is good in theory, but is no longer applicable in practice in today's world.

This is a debate that raged on at Delaware when I was in school in the early '80's. By '88, the UD trustees finally agreed that it was becoming increasingly more difficult for the Blue Hens to compete in the Yankee Conference and on a national level against schools who offered athletically-based aid for FB.

UD's academic reputation certainly hasn't suffered as a result of the decision to move from needed-based aid for FB student-athletes.

[DetroitFlyer]

I remember in the mid-1970's when you guys had scholarships and Colgate did not, and every game was as intense as it could get and extremely competitive. That's the point - there was a time when you could have pretty competitive Division I football that way and, occasionally, break a team into the Top 20. Unfortunately, it is very unlikely that can happen anymore without scholarships of some kind.

The non-athletic scholarship PFL will finish 2010 with two teams ranked in the top 25.

[DetroitFlyer]

I am OK with the non-athletic scholarship models employed in the Ivy, PL and PFL for the most part. My only gripe is the significant lack of transparency. An athletic scholarship is pretty cut and dried. It is pretty straight forward for any outside observer, player, family, etc. to understand and verify. The aid in the Ivy, PL and PFL is very hard to understand and frankly is surrounded by mystery and ongoing claims of not being completely above board.... All three leagues land great players, so I do not agree that you cannot be competitive with the models used by the leagues. Of course the fact that all three leagues can land great players without a normal, athletic scholarship is the reason so many folks question the aid models.

[Franks Tanks]

The non-athletic scholarship PFL will finish 2010 with two teams ranked in the top 25.

And combined Dayton and Jacksonville beat two D-I teams in 2010 outside of the PFL.

[henfan]

All three leagues land great players, so I do not agree that you cannot be competitive with the models used by the leagues.

That depends largely on the definition and scope of "competitive" and the athletic standards for which you're willing to settle. The PL, IL & PFL have not been consistently competitive on a national level, though it can be argued that this is the sacrifice they're willing to make to uphold institutional/league-wide academic standards.

No doubt all 3 leagues attract some terrific talent.

[Gater]

DetroitFlyer, Go..gate is referring to Colgate making it into the top 20 for all of Division 1 in the 70's.

[DFW HOYA]

DetroitFlyer, Go..gate is referring to Colgate making it into the top 20 for all of Division 1 in the 70's.

Colgate was ranked #20 for in one week in the 1977 season.

[DetroitFlyer]

OK, now I understand. Things were much different in the pre-Title IX days.... My Flyers played big time Division I football in those days as well. Even then, however, we struggled to provide the same number of athletic scholarships as the true big boys of the day. Unlike Colgate, we never enjoyed that kind of big time success. We typically struggled to get to a winning record.

[GannonFan]

Colgate was ranked #20 for in one week in the 1977 season.

Would've stayed ranked too if they hadn't lost 21-3 to UD, Colgate's kryptonite.

[DFW HOYA]

It wasn't Title IX (which arrived in 1972) inasmuch as Division I schools had unlimited scholarships in football, which drove out a lot of the smaller schools. If Nebraska wanted 160 kids on a free ride, they could do it.

It then went to 115, 105, 95, and today's 85.

[MplsBison]

Well put. I get to load up the car on a Saturday morning, meet up with friends and family along the way or outside the stadium, share some food and drink and enjoy a few laughs, and watch a great, historic FCS game in pleasant and familiar surroundings. Sometimes I even get into a debate or two about politics, architecture or economic theory.

It's a selfish pleasure that I work hard to enjoy. I'm not entirely certain why you think that's such a bad thing, but I'll take your word for it, I suppose.

Of course that's not a bad thing. In fact, I'm envious! I'd love to see an Ivy game some day.

The point is, it's bad because of what you'd sacrifice to keep it.


As I said earlier, teams that refuse to play for the future deserve to be relegated to the past.

[MplsBison]

There's a happy medium between Bogus' "walk in the park" tail-gate and a "win at all cost" tail-gate....Holy Cross used to be there but sadly now fall more toward Bogus' vision of Saturday mornings/afternoons. Not that it's a bad thing, but it really isn't a D1 football atmosphere.

Yes.

There's nothing wrong with what Bogus wants, but it's really no different than DIII football. I've said all along, if that's what the PL and Ivies want...why won't they just drop down, damnit?! They can't win a national team title in any sport at the DI level anyway...at least not in modern sports.

What is so bad about winning a DIII national title?

[Franks Tanks]

It wasn't Title IX (which arrived in 1972) inasmuch as Division I schools had unlimited scholarships in football, which drove out a lot of the smaller schools. If Nebraska wanted 160 kids on a free ride, they could do it.

It then went to 115, 105, 95, and today's 85.

I was really bored once when recovering from a knee surgery and picked up Barry Switzer's memoir written in the late 80's. It was really interesting learning what major programs were like in the 70's. He said he had 200 scholarship football players on the roster in the early to mid-70's. He knew most of those kids would have no chance to play, but he took them to prevent them from becoming his competition.

[MplsBison]

Very true. It is my understanding that many schools used a system of need based financial aid back in the day with a lot of success. Delaware, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, and even Rutgers as I understand it all offered need based financial aid in the 70's and early 80's and competed well.

While the need based aid program may be of higher moral standing in the eyes of idiot professors it is clearly an outdated model. It kills me that these academics can't understand that this is a case of a process that is good in theory, but is no longer applicable in practice in today's world.

How is it even on a higher moral ground if the student-athlete proves himself via the school's own admissions process that he is academically capable on his own?

So it really does fall back on the school, as it always has, to not admit any student-athlete that isn't academically capable in the fullest. That's there choice and it should be.

[MplsBison]

The non-athletic scholarship PFL will finish 2010 with two teams ranked in the top 25.

Too bad they don't have the gonads to prove this supposed ranking by playing real FCS teams.

[MplsBison]

It wasn't Title IX (which arrived in 1972) inasmuch as Division I schools had unlimited scholarships in football, which drove out a lot of the smaller schools. If Nebraska wanted 160 kids on a free ride, they could do it.

It then went to 115, 105, 95, and today's 85.

And NFL rosters are limited to 53 players. Fifty friggin three! (admittedly this might increase some with the next CBA)

And then you see FBS football still with 85 full scholarships and still playing the bowls and it leaves you with no doubt: big time college football is still run by an ol boys club with plenty of corruption and payoffs still a part of the system under the guise of "tradition".

[DFW HOYA]

NFL rosters are limited to 53 because it makes economic sense to do so; of course, the ability to trade (and cut) makes large rosters unnecessary.

Large college rosters are not limited to I-A schools, either: Mount Union (OH) fielded 123 on its roster this season.

[Eagle22]

No offense but, though henfan's argument has some merit on the surface, that doesn't mean the NCAA would go along. Message board speculation is just that.

The basketball schools don't care about FBS vs. FCS. It certainly didn't drag down the A-10 when their name was attached to the now-CAA FCS football conference.

I'm late to this whole thread, but perhaps you are aware of Alfred White's thoughts regarding FBS plans for the whole conference when he was steering the SoCon a decade ago. Not saying it was going to happen, but the time he put in discussing different scenarios with member institutions ... led me to think that the NCAA wouldn't have a problem with it had the whole league moved up ... now, that said, I realize that was 10 years ago and with the current moratorium, rules may have changed .... but I'm not so certain that the NCAA would be prone to blocking what henfan postulated.

Intriguing idea though ...

[MplsBison]

NFL rosters are limited to 53 because it makes economic sense to do so; of course, the ability to trade (and cut) makes large rosters unnecessary.

Large college rosters are not limited to I-A schools, either: Mount Union (OH) fielded 123 on its roster this season.

It doesn't do much good to trade for guys who are broken in half! NFL needs larger roster size so that they can keep more guys around to make it through an 18 game season healthy. Not talking a huge increase, just a bit more than 53.

My point really has to do with the fact having even 85 players on some form of scholarship (which is the limit in DI and DII I believe) is unnecessary and only makes football that much more impossible to deal with in terms of title IX.

They could cut the max number of players on scholarship down to 60 and then cut the maximum number of scholarship equivalencies down to 60 in FBS and 45 in FCS and make it a little bit easier for more schools to compete financially.

The haves will always complain, sure.

[Franks Tanks]

It doesn't do much good to trade for guys who are broken in half! NFL needs larger roster size so that they can keep more guys around to make it through an 18 game season healthy. Not talking a huge increase, just a bit more than 53.

My point really has to do with the fact having even 85 players on some form of scholarship (which is the limit in DI and DII I believe) is unnecessary and only makes football that much more impossible to deal with in terms of title IX.

They could cut the max number of players on scholarship down to 60 and then cut the maximum number of scholarship equivalencies down to 60 in FBS and 45 in FCS and make it a little bit easier for more schools to compete financially.

The haves will always complain, sure.

College teams need a large roster because many kids on the team are young and can't play right away or are injured. Take a team with 85 kids. 20 may be Freshman and not ready to contribute. Another 10-15 players are hurt at an given time. 7-8 may be out for the season and another half dozen may be banged up at anytime. Right there you are down to 50 guys who are capable of playing football. In the pro's if a guy gets hurt he can be put on IR and his roster spot filled. Granted the pickens may be slim from the practice squad or free agents, but virtually every player on an NFL roster is ready to play and contribute.

[Go...gate]

Well put. I get to load up the car on a Saturday morning, meet up with friends and family along the way or outside the stadium, share some food and drink and enjoy a few laughs, and watch a great, historic FCS game in pleasant and familiar surroundings. Sometimes I even get into a debate or two about politics, architecture or economic theory.

It's a selfish pleasure that I work hard to enjoy. I'm not entirely certain why you think that's such a bad thing, but I'll take your word for it, I suppose.

Count me in again.....

[Go...gate]

OK, now I understand. Things were much different in the pre-Title IX days.... My Flyers played big time Division I football in those days as well. Even then, however, we struggled to provide the same number of athletic scholarships as the true big boys of the day. Unlike Colgate, we never enjoyed that kind of big time success. We typically struggled to get to a winning record.

Gerry Faust was the Dayton QB at one point, if I recall correctly.

[MplsBison]

College teams need a large roster because many kids on the team are young and can't play right away or are injured. Take a team with 85 kids. 20 may be Freshman and not ready to contribute. Another 10-15 players are hurt at an given time. 7-8 may be out for the season and another half dozen may be banged up at anytime. Right there you are down to 50 guys who are capable of playing football. In the pro's if a guy gets hurt he can be put on IR and his roster spot filled. Granted the pickens may be slim from the practice squad or free agents, but virtually every player on an NFL roster is ready to play and contribute.

Sorry, you're not going to convince me that true freshman aren't capable of playing right out of high school.

Maybe it was that way back 30-40 years ago when you played, but today's high school athletes are so large and fast that they can in fact offer something to college teams immediately. True freshman are contributing at every level.


60 should be plenty. You only need 22 starters. Even with special teams, really no more than 40-45 players are contributing significantly on the field in a given season.

[Tribe4SF]

Sorry, you're not going to convince me that true freshman aren't capable of playing right out of high school.



Some are, but most are not, especially at the FCS level compared to FBS. Cutting down roster size would force teams to play some kids who really aren't ready, and quality of competition would suffer. W&M had 24 freshmen on their roster this year, and two played. There were probably another two or three who could have played if needed, but the rest would have caused a significant drop in performance level for the team. It's not just a matter of being physically prepared to play, it's also a matter of learning how to play.

[DetroitFlyer]

Gerry Faust was the Dayton QB at one point, if I recall correctly.

I think he graduated in 1958 or so.... If I am not mistaken, he lettered at QB three years at UD. The 1950's also produced Chuck Noll out of UD. He went on to a decent playing and coaching career. I seem to recall he had some success with the Steelers.... UD produced a number of NFL players in those days.... It has been a long time since UD had an NFL player, probably the mid to late 1970's. I think we will have another one in the not too distant future. We are now getting kids into camps on a more regular basis. Jesse Obert had a decent kicking career in the AFL a while back after trying out with the Browns....

[Go...gate]

I think he graduated in 1958 or so.... If I am not mistaken, he lettered at QB three years at UD. The 1950's also produced Chuck Noll out of UD. He went on to a decent playing and coaching career. I seem to recall he had some success with the Steelers.... UD produced a number of NFL players in those days.... It has been a long time since UD had an NFL player, probably the mid to late 1970's. I think we will have another one in the not too distant future. We are now getting kids into camps on a more regular basis. Jesse Obert had a decent kicking career in the AFL a while back after trying out with the Browns....

I believe that Dayton and John Carroll University (Jesuit school, Don Shula's alma mater) used to play periodically.

[superman7515]

I think he graduated in 1958 or so.... If I am not mistaken, he lettered at QB three years at UD. The 1950's also produced Chuck Noll out of UD. He went on to a decent playing and coaching career. I seem to recall he had some success with the Steelers.... UD produced a number of NFL players in those days.... It has been a long time since UD had an NFL player, probably the mid to late 1970's. I think we will have another one in the not too distant future. We are now getting kids into camps on a more regular basis. Jesse Obert had a decent kicking career in the AFL a while back after trying out with the Browns....

No, Faust and Noll played at Dayton, not UD. ;)

[DetroitFlyer]

No, Faust and Noll played at Dayton, not UD. ;)

Nice try, but at Dayton, WE ARE UD! Truth be told, however, I try not to purchase Dayton stuff that only has the "UD" logo. I would hate to ever be mistaken for that school out east....

[blukeys]

Nice try, but at Dayton, WE ARE UD! Truth be told, however, I try not to purchase Dayton stuff that only has the "UD" logo. I would hate to ever be mistaken for that school out east....

Don't worry no one confuses Dayton for the REAL UD

[blukeys]

Very true. It is my understanding that many schools used a system of need based financial aid back in the day with a lot of success. Delaware, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, and even Rutgers as I understand it all offered need based financial aid in the 70's and early 80's and competed well.

While the need based aid program may be of higher moral standing in the eyes of idiot professors it is clearly an outdated model. It kills me that these academics can't understand that this is a case of a process that is good in theory, but is no longer applicable in practice in today's world.

Rutgers went to scholarships at the end of the 60's. This was a phased in process.

Delaware went to scholarships in the mid 80's with their entry into the Yankee Conference. I was friends with Football players of UD in the 70's who were receiving needs based grants and it is a shell game. A well versed financial aid officer could get the athlete the aid they needed.

[DetroitFlyer]

Don't worry no one confuses Dayton for the REAL UD

Maybe true in the tiny state of Delaware.... Given Dayton's basketball success over the years, my guess is that most folks would recognize UD as the University of Dayton not your school.... At least you can claim that Delaware has been around a bit longer.... Maybe that will ease your pain....

[Model Citizen]

Delaware didn't even field Division I sports until the 1980s.

[ngineer]

Don't worry no one confuses Dayton for the REAL UD

Which is the University of Detroit! Home of Spencer Heywood and Dave DeBuschere and coached by Dick Vitale in the mid-1970's!! (;-)

[Go...gate]

And NFL rosters are limited to 53 players. Fifty friggin three! (admittedly this might increase some with the next CBA)

And then you see FBS football still with 85 full scholarships and still playing the bowls and it leaves you with no doubt: big time college football is still run by an ol boys club with plenty of corruption and payoffs still a part of the system under the guise of "tradition".

Hey, it enables the lords of the NFL to make money hand over fist with fungible bodies. No college spirit there.

[blukeys]

Which is the University of Detroit! Home of Spencer Heywood and Dave DeBuschere and coached by Dick Vitale in the mid-1970's!! (;-)

And the University of Detroit plays football where??????

[Go...gate]

Rutgers went to scholarships at the end of the 60's. This was a phased in process.

Delaware went to scholarships in the mid 80's with their entry into the Yankee Conference. I was friends with Football players of UD in the 70's who were receiving needs based grants and it is a shell game. A well versed financial aid officer could get the athlete the aid they needed.

Not a full complement of scholarships, however, until 1973. Dr. John Bateman wanted more but they never got a full number until Frank Burns arrived and Rutgers declared it was going to be "Bigger Time" in athletics.

[UAalum72]

Which is the University of Detroit! Home of Spencer Heywood and Dave DeBuschere and coached by Dick Vitale in the mid-1970's!! (;-)
No, the Titans' abbreviation is now UDM - The University of Detroit Mercy
157191572015721

[Go...gate]

I just want to share with you the climate at Colgate and what we are increasingly up against in Hamilton. This was posted by a person who claims to be a 1988 Colgate graduate and, more recently, admitted being a faculty member.

"I am focused on the macro environment of NE 1AA football. Schools with large student bodies are drawing the conclusion that 1AA elite is not of much
value to their schools (see Hofstra, Rhode Island, UMass, UConn, Norhteastern, BU). What do they know that we don't? That's what I think we could have a
fruitful discussion about. Where is the environment headed. If we could sign up W & M and Richmond to the Patriot League it would be worth the cost of
scholarships. Other wishful scenarios don't make a lot of sense to me."

This was my response:

"What a brilliant, though unsuccessful, manipulation of disparate factual scenarios to make a point. UCONN and UMASS see their future success (as Boston College did in the 1970's and 1980's) as inextricably linked to successful Division I athletics, not by de-emphasis, which you clearly support. Your attempt to somehow analogize the UCONN and UMASS situations to BU (whose dropping FB was the brainchild of one president) URI (which never had a successful Division I FB program), Northeastern (which dropped football largely because of facilities limitations unique in all of Division I) and Hofstra (whose dropping of football has sparked a very strong movement to oust its president) is, to be kind, lacking in credibility, though seemingly typical of the Colgate mentality since the Langdon era (with the exception of [former President Rebecca] Chopp).

Colgate has neither a facilities nor a financial problem in connection with athletic programs. Indeed, I have no doubt if alumni were approached with regard to the endowment of scholarships in numerous sports, it would happen. No, the problem here is philosophy. Based on your thesis, we don't want to be the best we can be in athletics because it will reflect badly on the university. What a lot of hogwash."

[ngineer]

No, the Titans' abbreviation is now UDM - The University of Detroit Mercy
157191572015721

That's just a recent change with a merger with Mercy College. In the midwest, U of D has meant Detroit. And, in response to another post, the response was not limited to just football playing schools. Just responding to what people think of when they hear the term "U of D" or "UD". In the East UD certainly means Delaware. In Ohio, it means Dayton. In Pennsylvania, LU means Lehigh, in Virginia it means Liberty. As in politics...it's local.

[DetroitFlyer]

That's just a recent change with a merger with Mercy College. In the midwest, U of D has meant Detroit. And, in response to another post, the response was not limited to just football playing schools. Just responding to what people think of when they hear the term "U of D" or "UD". In the East UD certainly means Delaware. In Ohio, it means Dayton. In Pennsylvania, LU means Lehigh, in Virginia it means Liberty. As in politics...it's local.

I can assure you as a current resident of Metro-Detroit, NO ONE here calls the University of Detroit Mercy, "UD". "UDM" is clearly understood here. Truth be told, however, UDM is almost invisible up here. That fact is one of the reason that UDM is seriously considering football and the PFL. They recently built a very nice "football" field that is currently used for soccer and lacrosse. I will not be surprised to see them in the PFL sometime in the future. It is also interesting that MANY Metro-Detroit kids choose to go down to Dayton rather than stay home to go to UDM. Maybe it is just that desire to get away from home, but I do not think that many Dayton kids are leaving town to attend UDM.... UDM is like many things in Detroit. It should be extremely successful but just is not.... That is not to say that UDM is in bad shape or anything, it just seems like they should be doing a bit better overall in all respects. Maybe PFL football will help. As I said, I try to make sure my Dayton items have more than just a "UD" logo on them so there is no confusion as to my school.

[MplsBison]

Some are, but most are not, especially at the FCS level compared to FBS. Cutting down roster size would force teams to play some kids who really aren't ready, and quality of competition would suffer. W&M had 24 freshmen on their roster this year, and two played. There were probably another two or three who could have played if needed, but the rest would have caused a significant drop in performance level for the team. It's not just a matter of being physically prepared to play, it's also a matter of learning how to play.

Agreed to disagree it is. After this year at NDSU, with two starters on the OL being true freshman....nope, you're wrong IMO. Even true freshman are ready to play out of high school moreso today than every before.

And the point is, if roster sizes are decreased for all teams then everyone would have to play more freshman. So there would be no advantage for some teams over other teams.

[blukeys]

Maybe true in the tiny state of Delaware.... Given Dayton's basketball success over the years, my guess is that most folks would recognize UD as the University of Dayton not your school.... At least you can claim that Delaware has been around a bit longer.... Maybe that will ease your pain....

I don't need anyone to ease any pain. I have traveled throughout this great nation and have had no one mistake my attire that only had UD on it as any other school. This is unlike you who said this on this very thread.


Truth be told, however, I try not to purchase Dayton stuff that only has the "UD" logo. I would hate to ever be mistaken for that school out east....

You see at the real UD we never worry about being mistaken for a small midwest basketball school. I can appreciate the fact that a UD only piece of attire may be mistaken for Delaware wherever you go but this situation has never crossed my mind regardless of where I have traveled.

Thanks for proving by your very own comments who is the REAL UD.

Game set match Delaware. DF gets his usual xasswhipxxasswhipxxasswhipxxasswhipxxasswhipx

[DetroitFlyer]

I don't need anyone to ease any pain. I have traveled throughout this great nation and have had no one mistake my attire that only had UD on it as any other school. This is unlike you who said this on this very thread.



You see at the real UD we never worry about being mistaken for a small midwest basketball school. I can appreciate the fact that a UD only piece of attire may be mistaken for Delaware wherever you go but this situation has never crossed my mind regardless of where I have traveled.

Thanks for proving by your very own comments who is the REAL UD.

Game set match Delaware. DF gets his usual xasswhipxxasswhipxxasswhipxxasswhipxxasswhipx

You have proved nothing nor have I about your national recognition.... I simply prefer my stuff to spell out "University of Dayton" so if I travel out east, no one mistakes me for an alum of some public school in a tiny state.... I see Dayton stuff all over the country. The only Delaware stuff I have ever seen is from my niece's husband, (Delaware grad). Come to think of it, I have NEVER seen him with anything from his alma matter.... He has just told me he graduated from there.... Folks who graduated from Dayton, however, are very proud and wear the colors and logos often. MANY times I have passed a fellow UD grad in an airport proudly displaying the Dayton logos. I cannot remember ever seeing a Delaware logo.... I will say one thing about my niece's husband, he is a very decent person. Not like many of the Delaware fans on this board. Maybe that is why he never wears anything that would point to his university.... (In fairness, he did mention that he will probably watch the NC game)....

[blukeys]

You have proved nothing nor have I about your national recognition.... I simply prefer my stuff to spell out "University of Dayton" so if I travel out east, no one mistakes me for an alum of some public school in a tiny state.... I see Dayton stuff all over the country. The only Delaware stuff I have ever seen is from my niece's husband, (Delaware grad). Come to think of it, I have NEVER seen him with anything from his alma matter.... He has just told me he graduated from there.... Folks who graduated from Dayton, however, are very proud and wear the colors and logos often. MANY times I have passed a fellow UD grad in an airport proudly displaying the Dayton logos. I cannot remember ever seeing a Delaware logo.... I will say one thing about my niece's husband, he is a very decent person. Not like many of the Delaware fans on this board. Maybe that is why he never wears anything that would point to his university.... (In fairness, he did mention that he will probably watch the NC game)....

Yes change your story now. This is what you said.

"I try not to purchase Dayton stuff that only has the "UD" logo. I would hate to ever be mistaken for that school out east...."
Again this is something I have never worried about. Talk all you want about family members. No one here can check on your anecdotes and stories.

The truth is, by your very own words you worry that a UD logo would be mistaken for the REAL UD and that is a fact from your very own post.

I on the other hand travel throughout the nation proudly only bearing a UD logo with no fear that I might be confused with a small basketball school in the mid west.

[Go...gate]

What's all this controversy about the University of Denver? ; )

[ngineer]

I can assure you as a current resident of Metro-Detroit, NO ONE here calls the University of Detroit Mercy, "UD". "UDM" is clearly understood here. Truth be told, however, UDM is almost invisible up here. That fact is one of the reason that UDM is seriously considering football and the PFL. They recently built a very nice "football" field that is currently used for soccer and lacrosse. I will not be surprised to see them in the PFL sometime in the future. It is also interesting that MANY Metro-Detroit kids choose to go down to Dayton rather than stay home to go to UDM. Maybe it is just that desire to get away from home, but I do not think that many Dayton kids are leaving town to attend UDM.... UDM is like many things in Detroit. It should be extremely successful but just is not.... That is not to say that UDM is in bad shape or anything, it just seems like they should be doing a bit better overall in all respects. Maybe PFL football will help. As I said, I try to make sure my Dayton items have more than just a "UD" logo on them so there is no confusion as to my school.

I guess the 'merger' has been effective, then. I know when it first happened a lot of U of Detroit alums were not happy with the name change. I went to U of Detroit Law School when Vitale was there and they had pretty entertaining program. As for the new field, Lehigh is going out to play them in lacrosse this spring. I think they'd be a very good addition to the PFL, although the travel expenses may be prohibitive. Like Chicago, Detroit was a great football power the first half of the 1900's.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm taking this as a bad omen that this thread on saving the Patriot League has devolved into a verbal battle as to who the "real UD" is and talking about a Detroit football program that hasn't ever competed in D-I football.

[Go...gate]

Not really. Did you see the post I re-printed above regarding my dialogue with a Colgate prof?

[DetroitFlyer]

I'm taking this as a bad omen that this thread on saving the Patriot League has devolved into a verbal battle as to who the "real UD" is and talking about a Detroit football program that hasn't ever competed in D-I football.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/discontinued/d/detroit/index.php

The University of Detroit actually has rich football history and did play big time football in the past....

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/discontinued/d/detroit/opponents_records.php?teamid=873

Detroit "owned" Dayton from 1928 to 1964, going 7-3-1 against the Flyers over that span....

[henfan]

Delaware didn't even field Division I sports until the 1980s.

Yeah, a full 7 years behind the creation of NCAA Division I. Real laggards.xlolx

So, what's the topic again?

[RichH2]

PFL needs their own board, or at the very least start their own threads. My guess is the only art of compromise they are interested in must involve the PFL. I know we are almost between seasons but gosh an ongoing talk on "UD".

[ngineer]

I'm taking this as a bad omen that this thread on saving the Patriot League has devolved into a verbal battle as to who the "real UD" is and talking about a Detroit football program that hasn't ever competed in D-I football.

Whoa, big man! Detroit had a great football tradition. In fact, it is debatable as to where the forward pass was 'started' but Detroit's great Gus Dorais is given some credit for either starting it or developing it. If you watch "The Knute Rockne Story" you will see the pennants of all the 'Big Time" Football powers of the 1920's presented just before the credits, including U of Chicago, U of Detroit, Notre Dame, Loyola, Fordham, St. Mary's , etc. Detroit last played football in 1964, suffering the same fate of football at most urban universities. Chicago returned with D-III, however, Detroit never did. HOwever, in 1974, women's intercollegiate flag football was started with Detroit playing Michigan, Marygrove College, Oakland, Wayne State. Not sure if it still exists today. Hopefully, the Titans will resurrect football in a manner that they can handle.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

[/U][/B]

Whoa, big man! Detroit had a great football tradition. In fact, it is debatable as to where the forward pass was 'started' but Detroit's great Gus Dorais is given some credit for either starting it or developing it. If you watch "The Knute Rockne Story" you will see the pennants of all the 'Big Time" Football powers of the 1920's presented just before the credits, including U of Chicago, U of Detroit, Notre Dame, Loyola, Fordham, St. Mary's , etc. Detroit last played football in 1964, suffering the same fate of football at most urban universities. Chicago returned with D-III, however, Detroit never did. HOwever, in 1974, women's intercollegiate flag football was started with Detroit playing Michigan, Marygrove College, Oakland, Wayne State. Not sure if it still exists today. Hopefully, the Titans will resurrect football in a manner that they can handle.

Don't get me wrong: I understand University of Detroit has a really great football tradition. It just all happened before Division I existed. And I also fail to see how that will help save the Patriot League! :P

[DetroitFlyer]

PFL needs their own board, or at the very least start their own threads. My guess is the only art of compromise they are interested in must involve the PFL. I know we are almost between seasons but gosh an ongoing talk on "UD".

Oh come on.... There are 18 pages of endless whining about the PL not granting traditional athletic scholarships.... I do not think that any single topic has ever been debated as much on AGS as the PL and athletic scholarships. If anyone needs their own board it is the Patriot League. By the way, we do have our own board for the PFL:

http://pflfan.proboards.com/index.cgi

Feel free to come and visit anytime. If it would help, I can start a thread there about the PFL not granting traditional athletic scholarships....

[Go...gate]

Oh come on.... There are 18 pages of endless whining about the PL not granting traditional athletic scholarships.... I do not think that any single topic has ever been debated as much on AGS as the PL and athletic scholarships. If anyone needs their own board it is the Patriot League. By the way, we do have our own board for the PFL:

http://pflfan.proboards.com/index.cgi

Feel free to come and visit anytime. If it would help, I can start a thread there about the PFL not granting traditional athletic scholarships....

Nope, still haven't surpassed the old swimsuit or counting threads by a long shot. ; )

[Bogus Megapardus]

Soon it will be February. I'm looking forward to the Girls of the Patriot League pictorial on AGS.

[DFW HOYA]

Back on track: does the league's official edict of no public comment (also known as "So shall it be written, so shall it be done") affect recruiting for the five of the other six schools that could have been offering scholarships next fall? What do they tell recruits what is going on?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thanks, DFW. Here's another fascinating article which may not seem related to the discussion, but is "Catcher in the Rye" fascinating for those faculties that dislike FB scholarships:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/03/new_book_on_history_of_college_athletic_reforms#Co mments


In Ronald A. Smith's new book, Pay for Play: A History of Big-Time College Athletic Reform (University of Illinois Press), he analyzes the history behind the current university athletic standards -- from National Collegiate Athletic Association reforms to presidential maneuverings to university governing board lapses. Taking a closer look at how athletic reforms change the character of a college's academic offerings, Smith's book is part history, part policy prospectus, and part call for reform of a system he believes fails athletes -- in particular minorities and women.

...

Q: Why is separating college sports from commercial interests important? How does it relate to academic integrity?

A: The lowering of academic standards to allow non-educationally motivated athletes to participate in commercially valuable sports is not conducive to maintaining academic integrity. The commercialization and corporatization of colleges and universities to make money for their institutions from teaching, research, and athletics is not new, but it is increasing — some say at an alarming rate. The fact that it started with a basically non-educational activity, athletics, is not surprising. That it is intensifying in medical schools, science research, and for-profit distance education on the Internet is even more troublesome than what is occurring in athletics.

Irony abounds in this article - not least that it was the original opponent of BU football, John Silber, who decreed that athletics that "make money" are the sports that should stay. Unfortunately, it's their zeal to go after Ohio State that causes them to punish schools that actually are discussing the issues of academic standards and schoalrships, like the PL. Discuss.

[Go...gate]

I have to admit that the passage of nearly a month has not lifted the sense of pessimism I have on the scholarship issue, or the future of the PL. I hope for the best in the days ahead but I have a sense of foreboding that a point of no return has been crossed. Certainly Colgate's administration is maintaining silence on the issue.

[RichH2]

Many are hoping that the topic will just fade away with time. Anyway nothing will happen by PL for 2 years. Any movement will be on a school by school basis and that aint gonna happen either unfortunately.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Anyway nothing will happen by PL for 2 years.

True, but I think things will happen around the PL that will have an impact.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Many are hoping that the topic will just fade away with time.

I am doing my level best to make sure this does not happen.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Anyway nothing will happen by PL for 2 years. Any movement will be on a school by school basis and that aint gonna happen either unfortunately.

The only moves that will happen are one way moves out of the Patriot League, which will ultimately spell the death of the league.


True, but I think things will happen around the PL that will have an impact.

If you mean that other leagues will be positioning themselves to take Fordham, and other possible PL schools - accelerating the league's demise - then yes.

The only thing you guys are missing is that in two years, there will almost certainly not be any PL to save.

[LURules]

Any chance that the league reamins and just shuts down the football league, thus leaving teams to do their own thing with football. THis would keepthe league affiliation for the other sports that are on more solid ground with the inclusion of American, Navy and Army?

[DFW HOYA]

If you mean that other leagues will be positioning themselves to take Fordham, and other possible PL schools - accelerating the league's demise - then yes. The only thing you guys are missing is that in two years, there will almost certainly not be any PL to save.

Dr. Weiss' line in the sand has only accelerated the decision by Colgate, Lehigh (or both) to announce they will offer scholarships beginning with the 2011-12 recruiting class, from which they will forego competing for the autobid in the process. Three issues immediately follow:

1. Whether the NCAA would consider foregoing the autobid for a conference with only four eligible teams;
2. Puts pressure on Holy Cross and Bucknell to follow suit; and
3. Immediately raises the blood pressure of Lafayette boosters who will loudly charge that he program will be "left behind" by Weiss' stand.

At that point, the league either acquiesces on scholarships entirely or, more likely, pushes back and drops formal sponsorship of the football conference altogether (calling it "strategic restructuring" or some such talk), from which some sort of tepid "Patriot Cup" competition between the core schools will follow, some sort of transitional scheduling agreement while the various schools search for a home, and otherwise clings to the hope that one or two of these schools will not find a more attractive conference for the rest of their programs elsewhere.

All because the presidents valued consensus over a decision.

[MplsBison]

The best outcome possible is for the PL to dump football. Let the schools do their own thing in football and keep everyone together playing basketball, etc.

The schools can and will schedule each other non-conference. Traditionally rivalries will survive.

[colorless raider]

Dr. Weiss' line in the sand has only accelerated the decision by Colgate, Lehigh (or both) to announce they will offer scholarships beginning with the 2011-12 recruiting class, from which they will forego competing for the autobid in the process. Three issues immediately follow:

1. Whether the NCAA would consider foregoing the autobid for a conference with only four eligible teams;
2. Puts pressure on Holy Cross and Bucknell to follow suit; and
3. Immediately raises the blood pressure of Lafayette boosters who will loudly charge that he program will be "left behind" by Weiss' stand.

At that point, the league either acquiesces on scholarships entirely or, more likely, pushes back and drops formal sponsorship of the football conference altogether (calling it "strategic restructuring" or some such talk), from which some sort of tepid "Patriot Cup" competition between the core schools will follow, some sort of transitional scheduling agreement while the various schools search for a home, and otherwise clings to the hope that one or two of these schools will not find a more attractive conference for the rest of their programs elsewhere.

All because the presidents valued consensus over a decision.

I hope you are right and Colgate goes its own way.

[Go...gate]

I am doing my level best to make sure this does not happen.

Please keep up the good work.

[ngineer]

The best outcome possible is for the PL to dump football. Let the schools do their own thing in football and keep everyone together playing basketball, etc.

The schools can and will schedule each other non-conference. Traditionally rivalries will survive.

Interesting possibililty with each school still playing each other, but no longer in a 'league', thereby relying on an 'at-large' bid to get into the playoffs. But by being able to schedule a 'pay-day' game each year, the budgets will be helped and, hopefully, the standard of play raised.

[Sader87]

The only moves that will happen are one way moves out of the Patriot League, which will ultimately spell the death of the league.



If you mean that other leagues will be positioning themselves to take Fordham, and other possible PL schools - accelerating the league's demise - then yes.

The only thing you guys are missing is that in two years, there will almost certainly not be any PL to save.

From your lips to God's ears....

[Ken_Z]

The only moves that will happen are one way moves out of the Patriot League, which will ultimately spell the death of the league.



If you mean that other leagues will be positioning themselves to take Fordham, and other possible PL schools - accelerating the league's demise - then yes.

The only thing you guys are missing is that in two years, there will almost certainly not be any PL to save.

From your lips to God's ears....

how do you construe this as being good for Holy Cross?

[breezy]

Initially, I had interpreted the statement that was issued to say, in essence, that all football members of the PL agreed to the two-year postponement of a decision. There was something in the statement about commitment to the stability of the PL. To me, this meant that Colgate and Lehigh agreed that they would not move unilaterally to institute scholarships as Fordham did. It also meant that Fordham agreed to accept the status quo for 2 more years. (Of course, any such commitment could easily be brushed aside if Fordham receives what it perceives to be a better offer to join another conference. I think it would be more difficult for Colgate or Lehigh to do that.)

I agree that the inaction of the Presidents constitutes a threat to the long-term viability of PL football, and certainly is a threat to the long-term relevancy of PL football in the FCS world.

I am surprised, however, by the talk that Colgate or Lehigh might renege on the apparent agreement they made at the President's meeting. Does anyone have any factual basis for this talk, or is it mere speculation?

Quite frankly, while the pro-scholarship schools could eventually land in a scholarship conference, I do not see any viability for non-scholarship football for these schools outside of the PL. Costs being what they are, I think schools would almost be forced to drop football rather than join another configuration that would mean more distant travel (and hence even greater expense).

I'm hoping somebody will tell me that my analysis is wrong.

[Franks Tanks]

[QUOTE=Sader87;1606625]

how do you construe this as being good for Holy Cross?

They will finally be free of the chains of the Patriot League, and be able to take their rightful place as members of the Big East.

[DFW HOYA]

Quite frankly, while the pro-scholarship schools could eventually land in a scholarship conference, I do not see any viability for non-scholarship football for these schools outside of the PL. Costs being what they are, I think schools would almost be forced to drop football rather than join another configuration that would mean more distant travel (and hence even greater expense). I'm hoping somebody will tell me that my analysis is wrong.

I do not see any of these schools abandoning football. Why would they? There are enough Ivy, lower level NEC and Pioneer schools to fill a schedule, and if a school played the minimum six D-I games a year and filled the rest with sub-Div. I teams, they could do that, too.

The idea that the only schools that can play I-AA football are those at 63 scholarships simply does not hold water.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I do not see any of these schools abandoning football. Why would they? There are enough Ivy, lower level NEC and Pioneer schools to fill a schedule, and if a school played the minimum six D-I games a year and filled the rest with sub-Div. I teams, they could do that, too.

The idea that the only schools that can play I-AA football are those at 63 scholarships simply does not hold water.

I do agree. However, lets look at the rosiest of situations for both sets of schools.

PL football splits apart over the issue of scholarships. Happily (and against all odds, but I digress) the scholarship PL schools join a new Yankee Conference, and the "non-scholarship" PL schools elect to create a brand-new Freedom League, consisting of some schools from the Pioneer Football League and other potential non-scholarship-football playing schools. Both leagues implement an Academic Index: the only difference is that the Yankee Conference allows unrestricted football scholarships, and the FFL does not.

Immediately, the Ivy League strikes a deal to play no fewer than three FFL teams a year, and the new Yankee conference is shut out from any Ivy games going forward (which would be so abjectly hypocritical to shut out a league using the Academic Index they themselves are implementing, but I digress again). The current PL teams in the FFL would be Bucknell, Lafayette and Georgetown. All the rest would be in the new Yankee Conference. Finally, both conferences get autobids.

Here's two sample schedules of Lafayette and Lehigh. This also assumes that Lehigh and Lafayette decide to preserve their Rivalry instead of abandoning it.

Lafayette 2013 Schedule
------------------------
OPEN
at Butler
at Drake
Princeton
at Harvard
Jacksonville *
Campbell *
at Davidson *
Georgetown *
at Marist *
Bucknell *
at Lehigh

Lehigh 2013 Schedule
--------------------
Marist
at Rutgers
OPEN
Liberty
at Delaware
Maine *
at New Hampshire *
Rhode Island *
at Fordham *
Colgate *
at Holy Cross *
Lafayette

Again, this is assuming the rosiest of scenarios, that the FFL will have an autobid to the playoffs and the Rivalry is still intact despite the fact that both leagues are separate. Which schedule is easier to sell to recruits? Which has higher costs? Which has higher net revenue? Most importantly, which schedule generates the most interest with the students, alumni and athletes?

[DFW HOYA]

PL football splits apart over the issue of scholarships. Happily (and against all odds, but I digress) the scholarship PL schools join a new Yankee Conference, and the "non-scholarship" PL schools elect to create a brand-new Freedom League, consisting of some schools from the Pioneer Football League and other potential non-scholarship-football playing schools. Both leagues implement an Academic Index: the only difference is that the Yankee Conference allows unrestricted football scholarships, and the FFL does not.

Why would these schools would be tied (again) to an Academic Index? We trust these schools to admit the best students, yet we do not trust them to admit the best student-athletes?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why would these schools would be tied (again) to an Academic Index? We trust these schools to admit the best students, yet we do not trust them to admit the best student-athletes?

The Ivy League doesn't appear to trust each other either, hence why they came up with the idea in the first place. In any event, I am making the assumption that the AI/need-based aid combo is required for the Ivy League to consider a multi-game deal with the new FFL.

I'm also assuming the new Yankee Football Conference would also want to differentiate themselves from the rest of Division I with academic standards for recruits. That might be pushing things, but on the flipside I seriously doubt that Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Fordham would oppose doing that.

[Franks Tanks]

I do agree. However, lets look at the rosiest of situations for both sets of schools.

PL football splits apart over the issue of scholarships. Happily (and against all odds, but I digress) the scholarship PL schools join a new Yankee Conference, and the "non-scholarship" PL schools elect to create a brand-new Freedom League, consisting of some schools from the Pioneer Football League and other potential non-scholarship-football playing schools. Both leagues implement an Academic Index: the only difference is that the Yankee Conference allows unrestricted football scholarships, and the FFL does not.

Immediately, the Ivy League strikes a deal to play no fewer than three FFL teams a year, and the new Yankee conference is shut out from any Ivy games going forward (which would be so abjectly hypocritical to shut out a league using the Academic Index they themselves are implementing, but I digress again). The current PL teams in the FFL would be Bucknell, Lafayette and Georgetown. All the rest would be in the new Yankee Conference. Finally, both conferences get autobids.

Here's two sample schedules of Lafayette and Lehigh. This also assumes that Lehigh and Lafayette decide to preserve their Rivalry instead of abandoning it.

Lafayette 2013 Schedule
------------------------
OPEN
at Butler
at Drake
Princeton
at Harvard
Jacksonville *
Campbell *
at Davidson *
Georgetown *
at Marist *
Bucknell *
at Lehigh

Lehigh 2013 Schedule
--------------------
Marist
at Rutgers
OPEN
Liberty
at Delaware
Maine *
at New Hampshire *
Rhode Island *
at Fordham *
Colgate *
at Holy Cross *
Lafayette

Again, this is assuming the rosiest of scenarios, that the FFL will have an autobid to the playoffs and the Rivalry is still intact despite the fact that both leagues are separate. Which schedule is easier to sell to recruits? Which has higher costs? Which has higher net revenue? Most importantly, which schedule generates the most interest with the students, alumni and athletes?

Another work of fiction. Lafayette alums would not allow the above to come to pass.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Another work of fiction. Lafayette alums would not allow the above to come to pass.

Make it so, Number One. Believe me I don't want this to happen in this way - I believe Lehigh and Lafayette belong together in a scholarship PL.

I just think the schedule is a useful visual aid on what *could* happen.

[Franks Tanks]

Make it so, Number One. Believe me I don't want this to happen in this way - I believe Lehigh and Lafayette belong together in a scholarship PL.

I just think the schedule is a useful visual aid on what *could* happen.

Agree that if the worst happens that could be the Lafayette schedule. However when faced with the reality of that schedule and or the breakup of the league Weiss and co. will do what is necessary to maintain the Lafayette Football tradition. Certainly nothing wrong with schools like Butler or Campbell, but we have a huge disparity in funding and little in common to draw fan interest.

[Sader87]

Agree that if the worst happens that could be the Lafayette schedule. However when faced with the reality of that schedule and or the breakup of the league Weiss and co. will do what is necessary to maintain the Lafayette Football tradition. Certainly nothing wrong with schools like Butler or Campbell, but we have a huge disparity in funding and little in common to draw fan interest.

You mean like the Patriot League as it exists today?

[Franks Tanks]

You mean like the Patriot League as it exists today?

Last I checked Holy Cross doesnt seem prepared to offer football scholarships either. How exactly is the PL holding back the football program at the College of the Holy Cross?

[Sader87]

I was referring to the lack of support (attendance/interest) in Massachusetts and with most HC alumni for PL football....there is very little.

[Franks Tanks]

I was referring to the lack of support (attendance/interest) in Massachusetts and with most HC alumni for PL football....there is very little.

Colgate was a traditional rival before the PL, and Fordham and Georgetown are natural rivals. You have 5 additional OOC games that can be filled with Ivies and New England schools. I understand that Holy Cross fans may not get excited about Lafayette, Lehigh, and Bucknell, but without scholarships who else would you play?

[DetroitFlyer]

Colgate was a traditional rival before the PL, and Fordham and Georgetown are natural rivals. You have 5 additional OOC games that can be filled with Ivies and New England schools. I understand that Holy Cross fans may not get excited about Lafayette, Lehigh, and Bucknell, but without scholarships who else would you play?

How about a road trip to Dayton, Ohio?

[MplsBison]

Interesting possibililty with each school still playing each other, but no longer in a 'league', thereby relying on an 'at-large' bid to get into the playoffs. But by being able to schedule a 'pay-day' game each year, the budgets will be helped and, hopefully, the standard of play raised.

Nothing saying the schools couldn't join another conference or start a new one. Just saying the PL shouldn't sponsor football anymore. It should just be a conference for bball and the rest of the sports.

[Go...gate]

Colgate was a traditional rival before the PL, and Fordham and Georgetown are natural rivals. You have 5 additional OOC games that can be filled with Ivies and New England schools. I understand that Holy Cross fans may not get excited about Lafayette, Lehigh, and Bucknell, but without scholarships who else would you play?

Colgate is not going to stop playing Lafayette any more than it will stop playing Holy Cross.

[Go...gate]

How about a road trip to Dayton, Ohio?

Why not? Maybe the answer is for you guys to join the PL for football.

[DetroitFlyer]

Why not? Maybe the answer is for you guys to join the PL for football.

Dayton does not currently meet the PL academic requirements. As a founding member of the PFL and the team with the most PFL championships by far, I do not see the Flyers going anywhere in the near or distant future. The PFL is actively seeking games against traditional FCS teams and the PL and Ivy are a good match for programs like UD. Dayton and Holy Cross have played in the past. Any PL game would be a good matchup for UD. It would make for a decent road trip for a PL team, ( gotta get out of the NE once in a while). For the Flyers it is no worse than traveling to Marist or JU or USD well you get the picture. As a fan, I would enjoy making some road trips to the schools of the PL. So far, I have only made it to Fordham and they seem to be holding on by a thread to the PL.... (Maybe I should just stay home).... On a more serious note, I will always be convinced that losing to the Flyers in back to back seasons was a strong driver for where Fordham is today....

[DFW HOYA]

On a more serious note, I will always be convinced that losing to the Flyers in back to back seasons was a strong driver for where Fordham is today....

Fordham is where it is because the football program figured out that to convert its already significant financial aid budget into scholarships, it would attract interest for games with I-A opponents.

[MplsBison]

Fordham is where it is because the football program figured out that to convert its already significant financial aid budget into scholarships, it would attract interest for games with I-A opponents.

You can play an I-A team and have it count as a bowl win even if you don't have scholarships. You just have to give 90% of the maximum equivalencies allowed in FCS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dayton does not currently meet the PL academic requirements....

Which perfectly summarizes why the PL staying with need-based aid and an academic index is doomed to failure. Not to pick on Dayton, DF, but if what you say is true, then any league that the non-scholarship wing of the PL would want to create or join would be filled with such schools that "don't meet the academic requirements". Not that Dayton is a bad school; it isn't. It would make a good PL school (if they wanted to add scholarships ;) ). But if certain presidents are thinking that they are staying non-scholarship to stay with their "academic peers" - they're going to be in for a rude awakening when they realize that the alternative is a non-scholarhship league with (say) Campbell, Jacksonville and Dayton playing the roles of Colgate, Lehigh and Fordham.

And that assumes that Holy Cross will be along for the ride, too. To Holy Cross, I think they would be a lot more interested in an academically-oriented "New Yankee" conference with (limited?) scholarships than a non-scholarship conference with trips to South Carolina.

[aceinthehole]

Fordham is where it is because the football program figured out that to convert its already significant financial aid budget into scholarships, it would attract interest for games with I-A opponents.

Yes, and the current HC Tom Massella was a very strong driving force to go the scholly route.

Now rumor on the UConn boards is that if Whipple gets the job he is bringing Massella to Storrs as his DC. Wonder how his possible departure may affect Fordham's situation with the PL?

[DFW HOYA]

But if certain presidents are thinking that they are staying non-scholarship to stay with their "academic peers" - they're going to be in for a rude awakening when they realize that the alternative is a non-scholarhship league with (say) Campbell, Jacksonville and Dayton playing the roles of Colgate, Lehigh and Fordham.

Mr. Weiss notwithstanding, schools like Holy Cross and Georgetown want to stay with academic peers. If your contention is that the bigger draws in the PL are ready to kick them/us to the curb, I'm not sure what is gained.

[colorless raider]

Mr. Weiss notwithstanding, schools like Holy Cross and Georgetown want to stay with academic peers. If your contention is that the bigger draws in the PL are ready to kick them/us to the curb, I'm not sure what is gained.

What is gained is better football, better OC games and the academic standing of Colgate does not change. excellence across the board, unlike some other schoos..

[carney2]

AMAZING!! We continue to go at this with the same flawed "logic."

One more time: The people making these decisions (and, they are NOT in the athletic department) do not give a healthy rat's rear end about

winning records,
good OOC match ups,
being competitive with other conferences,
whether the football schedule contains Appalachian State, Yale or Campbell,
etc., etc.

Three things are moving their world:

1. Politics in their own little universe. Who has the real power, and what do they want?
2. Money.
3. And the LEAST of these three is: survival of the Patriot League. It is convenient. It is cost effective. Make no mistake however, that this will in any way offset either number 1 or number 2 above.

There is an ideological divide between the athletic department and these people, and very few of you seem to recognize it or want to. No matter what, the final battle will be decided on their field, with their rules, not yours. If you want to make a convincing argument it can't be about football or even athletics in general. You'd better be making a case for the future of the institution. Some of these people (I think that Weiss at Lafayette is one) see this decision through something of a life or death prism. If it is also true at your school, you'd better be able to paint a pretty convincing argument for "life." With a gun at my head, right now I think that I could make a more convincing argument con than pro. It all begins with "football is not part of the mission of this institution." If you're going the other way, you need to start there. Good luck.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is an ideological divide between the athletic department and these people, and very few of you seem to recognize it or want to. No matter what, the final battle will be decided on their field, with their rules, not yours. If you want to make a convincing argument it can't be about football or even athletics in general. You'd better be making a case for the future of the institution. Some of these people (I think that Weiss at Lafayette is one) see this decision through something of a life or death prism. If it is also true at your school, you'd better be able to paint a pretty convincing argument for "life." With a gun at my head, right now I think that I could make a more convincing argument con than pro. It all begins with "football is not part of the mission of this institution." If you're going the other way, you need to start there. Good luck.

"Status quo means that we will become uncompetitive with the Ivy League in football in ten years. We'll be allowed to hang out with them, but we'll need to don tuxes and serve them drinks in that instance.

"Scholarships means we can hobnob nationally with schools like Duke, Army, Stanford, Vanderbilt or Rutgers every year or every other year - and eventually, the Ivy League will have to come around on *our* terms. We'll all be sipping martinis and wearing Izods. It's not what the Ivy League wants now, but after playing at Campbell and Jacksonville a few years, they'll see the error of their ways - and we won't be anyone's beaten stepchild anymore.

"Oh, yeah, losing football will make us invisible as a Division I school, too, and make us more like Dayton than Harvard and Yale, who sponsor more than three dozen sports each."

[DFW HOYA]

I'm not sure what the context of the three quotes are, but one comment.

Re #2, it is unlikely that a scholarship PL has enough clout to draw the attention of "Duke, Army, Stanford, Vanderbilt or Rutgers every year or every other year." These schools, save Army, are not likely to go beyond one I-AA opponent a year and tend to focus on regional opponents who will take smaller guarantees: in Duke's case, a Richmond; in Stanford's case, a Cal Poly. One or two PL schools may snag the occasional game with the academies, but not all seven, and with 12+ CAA teams in the region, these are the schools more likely to draw I-A opponents, particularly as the BCS conferences add teams and thus reduce the need for nonscholarship opponents.

Adding scholarships to become a competitive I-AA contender is a worthy goal, but I-A games are ancillary to the discussion--the school which sees the guarantee games as a driver to its program are more likely the ones who will be run over in the process.

[Go...gate]

I'm not sure what the context of the three quotes are, but one comment.

Re #2, it is unlikely that a scholarship PL has enough clout to draw the attention of "Duke, Army, Stanford, Vanderbilt or Rutgers every year or every other year." These schools, save Army, are not likely to go beyond one I-AA opponent a year and tend to focus on regional opponents who will take smaller guarantees: in Duke's case, a Richmond; in Stanford's case, a Cal Poly. One or two PL schools may snag the occasional game with the academies, but not all seven, and with 12+ CAA teams in the region, these are the schools more likely to draw I-A opponents, particularly as the BCS conferences add teams and thus reduce the need for nonscholarship opponents.

Adding scholarships to become a competitive I-AA contender is a worthy goal, but I-A games are ancillary to the discussion--the school which sees the guarantee games as a driver to its program are more likely the ones who will be run over in the process.

Not correct at least in the case of a Rutgers or Army. They have long-time series traditional rivalries with the majority of the PL schools. Rutgers played Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh ever year for decades. Army has played Colgate and Holy Cross periodically through 2001.

In Colgate's case you might also make the argument for Duke, as we have played in football on a number of occasions since the thirties, through 1991.

[carney2]

"Status quo means that we will become uncompetitive with the Ivy League in football in ten years. We'll be allowed to hang out with them, but we'll need to don tuxes and serve them drinks in that instance.

"Scholarships means we can hobnob nationally with schools like Duke, Army, Stanford, Vanderbilt or Rutgers every year or every other year - and eventually, the Ivy League will have to come around on *our* terms. We'll all be sipping martinis and wearing Izods. It's not what the Ivy League wants now, but after playing at Campbell and Jacksonville a few years, they'll see the error of their ways - and we won't be anyone's beaten stepchild anymore.

"Oh, yeah, losing football will make us invisible as a Division I school, too, and make us more like Dayton than Harvard and Yale, who sponsor more than three dozen sports each."

I'm betting that all of this falls on deaf ears with many of the key decision makers. You need to get beyond - way beyond - football wins and losses if you want to have any success "arguing" with these people. Ideologically, they begin with "football is not part of the mission of this institution." I got in a brief discussion on this subject with a Lafayette faculty member who started with this quote and proceeded to "Why do we need anything more than Division 3?" That is the mindset of the people with their hands on the controls. You need better arguments than the ones you quoted, LFN.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm betting that all of this falls on deaf ears with many of the key decision makers. You need to get beyond - way beyond - football wins and losses if you want to have any success "arguing" with these people. Ideologically, they begin with "football is not part of the mission of this institution." I got in a brief discussion on this subject with a Lafayette faculty member who started with this quote and proceeded to "Why do we need anything more than Division 3?" That is the mindset of the people with their hands on the controls. You need better arguments than the ones you quoted, LFN.

I understand what you're saying, but don't underestimate that "Ivy Envy" factor. That's why dropping to Division III should not be in consideration from your faculty member: it makes Lafayette less like Dartmouth.

What kills me more than anything is that PL presidents seem to downright enjoy being second fiddle to the IL all the time. Where's the self-respect? Fault Fordham all you want for their decision for football scholarships, but they at least have a vision and conviction. The vision of most of the PL presidents seems to be always to look towards Cambridge as the Oracle. Why not stand on your own two feet, and offer some vision and leadership in this leader-free (it seems) day and age?

Weiss is offering leadership - but no vision, aside from the status quo "let's-wait-until-the-Oracle-tells-us-what-to-do" mindset that could eventually cause the Patriot League to disintegrate. I could have accepted leadership in the direction away from scholarships - I wouldn't have liked it, but I could have accepted it. But I can't abide anymore by the lack of vision in any direction aside from the one where it's the IL presidents sipping the martinis and the PL presidents donning the tuxes, serving them. The PL deserves better.

[DFW HOYA]

Not correct at least in the case of a Rutgers or Army. They have long-time series traditional rivalries with the majority of the PL schools. Rutgers played Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh ever year for decades. Army has played Colgate and Holy Cross periodically through 2001.
In Colgate's case you might also make the argument for Duke, as we have played in football on a number of occasions since the thirties, through 1991.

Colgate has played Duke twice since 1942 (1987, 1991). None of Georgetown's "traditional" rivals (except Fordham or HC) want to play GU anymore.

Here's the larger issue--traditional rivalries mean next to nothing in the BCS mindset. As these conferences continue to grow there will be fewer, not more, room for I-AA games and those I-AA teams that will get the games will tend to be those who will take the lowest bid.

If Colgate can get a game with Syracuse every three years, good for them. Georgetown can't get a game with Howard right now, so you can understand why this issue can't get any traction at the southern border of the PL.

The MSF Clock: It has been 1,944 days since construction was halted on the Multi-Sport Facility. Give students a home that befits Georgetown.

[Go...gate]

I understand what you're saying, but don't underestimate that "Ivy Envy" factor. That's why dropping to Division III should not be in consideration from your faculty member: it makes Lafayette less like Dartmouth.

What kills me more than anything is that PL presidents seem to downright enjoy being second fiddle to the IL all the time. Where's the self-respect? Fault Fordham all you want for their decision for football scholarships, but they at least have a vision and conviction. The vision of most of the PL presidents seems to be always to look towards Cambridge as the Oracle. Why not stand on your own two feet, and offer some vision and leadership in this leader-free (it seems) day and age?

Weiss is offering leadership - but no vision, aside from the status quo "let's-wait-until-the-Oracle-tells-us-what-to-do" mindset that could eventually cause the Patriot League to disintegrate. I could have accepted leadership in the direction away from scholarships - I wouldn't have liked it, but I could have accepted it. But I can't abide anymore by the lack of vision in any direction aside from the one where it's the IL presidents sipping the martinis and the PL presidents donning the tuxes, serving them. The PL deserves better.

LFN, well said as always but you are also missing that for some, it is not about "Ivy Envy". It appears that there are a lot of faculty that also want to be Middlebury, Amherst or Swarthmore -almost "Division III Envy", as if to be a small liberal arts college in the suburbs or country with feeble athletics is somehow ennobling to an institution. Colgate certainly has that problem, and it is now appearing that Lafayette does as well.