LFN: The Vote That Never Was: Meet the Ents

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/vote-that-never-was-meet-ents.html

More editorializing on the vote that didn't happen. Hope you like Lord of the Rings. And Fordham fans, you'll definitely want to read this.

[blukeys]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/vote-that-never-was-meet-ents.html

More editorializing on the vote that didn't happen. Hope you like Lord of the Rings. And Fordham fans, you'll definitely want to read this.

LFN the article but I think your comparison of the Presidents of the PL to the Ents is extremely unfair, to the ENTS!!

In the end the Ents went to war and destroyed Saruman.

[Go...gate]

LFN, I think "Meet the Fockers" might be a more apt analogy.

[blukeys]

LFN, I think "Meet the Fockers" might be a more apt analogy.

LOL +1

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, I think "Meet the Fockers" might be a more apt analogy.

+1 xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

A different take on the subject--what is really to prevent Colgate (or Lehigh, for that matter) from playing the Fordham card, that is, declare that it will offer full scholarships beginning in the 2011-12 recruiting cycle?

If precedent is any indicator, they will be declared ineligible for the league title (though still eligible for an at-large) and will not be tossed from the league. Then what?

[ngineer]

I think Colgate and Lehigh really have to stand back, now, and make that assessment. I think this delay game may be, in part, over thinking 1) that in two years the economy should be better and 2) that in two years other options with an anticipated break up of the CAA may be available. At that point, Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham could join up in a new scholarship football conference with some others; perhaps, UR, W&M and VU or others.

I am so thoroughly pissed at this I have focused more on the sunny side of life and am contemplating next spring with the PhillLEEs!

[Franks Tanks]

Lord of the Rings? Nerd alert!

[Go...gate]

I think Colgate and Lehigh really have to stand back, now, and make that assessment. I think this delay game may be, in part, over thinking 1) that in two years the economy should be better and 2) that in two years other options with an anticipated break up of the CAA may be available. At that point, Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham could join up in a new scholarship football conference with some others; perhaps, UR, W&M and VU or others.

I am so thoroughly pissed at this I have focused more on the sunny side of life and am contemplating next spring with the Phillies!

Fortunately, being a Mets fan, I have no reason to focus on the sunny side of life. Accordingly, I can continue to brood indefinitely about being chained to a rock and pecked to death by people like Daniel Weiss, Ollie Perez, Carolyn Schlie Femovich, Jeffrey Herbst and Luis Castillo, not to mention Javier Molina.

[Franks Tanks]

Fortunately, being a Mets fan, I have no reason to focus on the sunny side of life. Accordingly, I can continue to brood indefinitely about being chained to a rock and pecked to death by people like Daniel Weiss, Ollie Perez, Carolyn Schlie Femovich, Jeffrey Herbst and Luis Castillo, not to mention Javier Molina.

At least you have Princeton football.... well never mind.

Penn State looks to be in a good positon for next year, maybe focus on that!

[Go...gate]

At least you have Princeton football.... well never mind.

Penn State looks to be in a good positon for next year, maybe focus on that!

PU basketball is doing well, at least.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Those Lady Tigers look like a Sweet 16 team in the women's tourney this year, maybe more.

[RichH2]

Nice take on lousy situation. Took some of the edge off my vast disappointment in our leadership.

Figured I would calm down a bit by now but the gall of the PL leadership still gets me. We all occasionally know the feeling of being just not quite good enough at one endeavor or another. Our Presidents ( ENTs as LFN aptly termed them) have decided to institutionalize the concept into PL football. Hey, if your just not quite smart enuf for the Ivies then come here. If your not quite good enuf an athlete for a scholarship in the CAA then come here for at least a little aid.

It seems our erstwhile Presidents feel that The PL is not strong or distinctive enough to stand on its own with its own philosophy and goals. No, some would rather imitate the IL. No matter how pale or for that matter how good the imitation, it is still just that an imitation, I would rather be the real PL and not a facsimile IL.

I am proud to be a Lehigh alum and I know all of us are proud of our schools, each with its own traditions and achievements, both academic and athletic. Why aren't our Presidents?

[Fordham]

Thanks for the article LFN. From a Fordham perspective you captured things very well. I'll let you guys know what I hear of our reaction but I hope that there's a strong enough reason for us to stick it out to the final, final decision. As much as the % chance of that happening just went down I still hold out hope that it'll happen.

[blukeys]

Thanks for the article LFN. From a Fordham perspective you captured things very well. I'll let you guys know what I hear of our reaction but I hope that there's a strong enough reason for us to stick it out to the final, final decision. As much as the % chance of that happening just went down I still hold out hope that it'll happen.

Personally I would love to see Fordham in the CAA. If the PL continues to drop the ball then the good teams need to move on.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If the PL continues to drop the ball then the good teams need to move on.

Which are the good teams, and why?

[ngineer]

Nice take on lousy situation. Took some of the edge off my vast disappointment in our leadership.

Figured I would calm down a bit by now but the gall of the PL leadership still gets me. We all occasionally know the feeling of being just not quite good enough at one endeavor or another. Our Presidents ( ENTs as LFN aptly termed them) have decided to institutionalize the concept into PL football. Hey, if your just not quite smart enuf for the Ivies then come here. If your not quite good enuf an athlete for a scholarship in the CAA then come here for at least a little aid.

It seems our erstwhile Presidents feel that The PL is not strong or distinctive enough to stand on its own with its own philosophy and goals. No, some would rather imitate the IL. No matter how pale or for that matter how good the imitation, it is still just that an imitation, I would rather be the real PL and not a facsimile IL.

I am proud to be a Lehigh alum and I know all of us are proud of our schools, each with its own traditions and achievements, both academic and athletic. Why aren't our Presidents?

Because, I would bet, almost all are not alums. They're outsiders brought in to operate the institutions looking to make their respective 'marks' before moving on to the next 'challenge'. Much like school district superintendents in Pennsylvania, who for the most part were teachers who couldn't cut it and became administrators and became inebriated with all the educational philosophy crap as opposed to being real decision makers and practical problem solvers.

[DFW HOYA]

Because, I would bet, almost all are not alums. They're outsiders brought in to operate the institutions looking to make their respective 'marks' before moving on to the next 'challenge'.

For the seven PL schools playing football, only one is an alumnus of his school, Georgetown's Jack DeGioia. He is also the only PL president to have actually played college football.

Bucknell: John Bravman (Stanford '79)
Colgate: Jeffrey Herbst (Princeton '83)
Fordham: Rev. Joseph McShane, SJ (Boston College '71)
Georgetown: John DeGioia (Georgetown '79)
Holy Cross: Rev. Michael McFarland, SJ (Cornell '69)
Lehigh: Alice Gast (Southern California '80)
Lafayette: Daniel Weiss (George Washington '79)

FWIW, the chief executives of the three schools not in the football alignment (AU, USMA, USNA) are all alumni of their schools.

[blukeys]

Which are the good teams, and why?

The teams committed to building programs that can compete for a national championship.

[Go...gate]

The teams committed to building programs that can compete for a national championship.

I would like to think there are at least three of those.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The teams committed to building programs that can compete for a national championship.

You're going to have a tough time convincing the entire Ivy League to drop to Division III, but good luck with that.

One other thing - with UMass potentially joining the MAC, it will not be in a position to compete for the mythical BCS national championship. Should the MAC just drop to Division III as well?

[ngineer]

I would like to think there are at least three of those.

At the moment, only Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh have made it a public position that they 'want' to compete on the national level; they just can't, yet. Bucknell is a total unkown. Lafayette, per edleWeiss wants no part of wanting to compete on the national stage as he's content to "just be competitive within the PL". Georgetown may be more in the Bucknell camp. May 'want' to , but can even attempt. Holy Cross? Could if it wanted to, as it did in the past, but seems to have lost its stomach for the demand.

[Bogus Megapardus]

At the moment, only Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh have made it a public position that they 'want' to compete on the national level; they just can't, yet. Bucknell is a total unkown. Lafayette, per edleWeiss wants no part of wanting to compete on the national stage as he's content to "just be competitive within the PL". Georgetown may be more in the Bucknell camp. May 'want' to , but can even attempt. Holy Cross? Could if it wanted to, as it did in the past, but seems to have lost its stomach for the demand.

I read no public position from Lehigh last week. Only Lafayette had the wherewithal to take a public position - though certainly not a position to everyone's liking.

Did I miss the part where Lehigh announced last week that it was going to go out and "compete on the national stage?" As best as I can tell, it did nothing but sit on its hands while you throw spitballs at Lafayette.

Lehigh is not that good, and it certainly is in no position to be instructing others what to do.

[ngineer]

I read no public position from Lehigh last week. Only Lafayette had the wherewithal to take a public position - though certainly not a position to everyone's liking.

Did I miss the part where Lehigh announced last week that it was going to go out and "compete on the national stage?" As best as I can tell, it did nothing but sit on its hands while you throw spitballs at Lafayette.

Lehigh is not that good, and it certainly is in no position to be instructing others what to do.

Where did Lehigh 'instruct' others what to do? LU has been public in its support of the scholarship position taken by Fordham going back to summer of 2009. The fact no formal vote was taken could be for a host of reasons...similar to Congress when a bill does not get on the floor because there weren't enough votes and a number are still wringing their hands. So they postponed the vote for two years with their fingers crossed that by 2012, Bucknell, Holy Cross and maybe Georgetown will have a better clue of where they want to go. Blessed Laugheyette knows where it wants to go--as an adjunct of the IL.

Lehigh has taken the postion for years that it wants to compete for national championships. After getting the taste of the playoffs again under Higgins, both Lembo and Coen have said in the past that that is where they want to take the program. Sterrett has publically supported this. But with the current constraints of the PL, we will never get there. Colgate, I think, is of a similar mindset. Their scheduling of Syracuse this year certainly tells me they want to 'play up' whenever possible.

So if Laugheyette's BOT is in lock step with Weiss's philosophy, it looks like the PL is in for a blow up in two years, and either the PL will reform without them (and maybe others) or Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh (and maybe another) joins another conference (either existing or part of something new).

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lembo and Coen have said in the past that that is where they want to take the program. Sterrett has publically supported this. But with the current constraints of the PL, we will never get there.

I can't help it if Lehigh sees fit to fire its coaches every few years in order to try to remain competitive with Lafayette, but as I understand you now, it's your coach's declaration of desire to win championships that translates into a public announcement of Lehigh's vote last week? Come on now.

Would you like me to provide all the links from the past two years from Frank Tavani saying the same thing, and coming out in favor of scholarships?

Did Lehigh's board have a vote? Can you please link to something indicating the outcome?

Again, Lehigh is in no position to be telling others what to do.

[Franks Tanks]

Where did Lehigh 'instruct' others what to do? LU has been public in its support of the scholarship position taken by Fordham going back to summer of 2009. The fact no formal vote was taken could be for a host of reasons...similar to Congress when a bill does not get on the floor because there weren't enough votes and a number are still wringing their hands. So they postponed the vote for two years with their fingers crossed that by 2012, Bucknell, Holy Cross and maybe Georgetown will have a better clue of where they want to go. Blessed Laugheyette knows where it wants to go--as an adjunct of the IL.

Lehigh has taken the postion for years that it wants to compete for national championships. After getting the taste of the playoffs again under Higgins, both Lembo and Coen have said in the past that that is where they want to take the program. Sterrett has publically supported this. But with the current constraints of the PL, we will never get there. Colgate, I think, is of a similar mindset. Their scheduling of Syracuse this year certainly tells me they want to 'play up' whenever possible.

So if Laugheyette's BOT is in lock step with Weiss's philosophy, it looks like the PL is in for a blow up in two years, and either the PL will reform without them (and maybe others) or Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh (and maybe another) joins another conference (either existing or part of something new).

What is with you lately. Lafayette also makes statements that we desire to compete for FCS championships-- by the AD and Head Coach. That doesn't mean anything.

Also you should remember when Lafayette said all the same crap about basketball scholarships. 2-3 years later we were giving basketball, soccer, field hockey and womens lacrosse schollys. This is business as usual on college hill, and the day Lehigh gives football scholarships Lafayette will follow.

[van]

I can't help it if Lehigh sees fit to fire its coaches every few years in order to try to remain competitive with Lafayette, but as I understand you now, it's your coach's declaration of desire to win championships that translates into a public announcement of Lehigh's vote last week? Come on now.

Would you like me to provide all the links from the past two years from Frank Tavani saying the same thing, and coming out in favor of scholarships?

Did Lehigh's board have a vote? Can you please link to something indicating the outcome?

Again, Lehigh is in no position to be telling others what to do.

I thought we got a new coach when the last one left for an opportunity to compete on a national level. Of couse or latest coach has beaten the pards a few times lately too!

[ngineer]

I can't help it if Lehigh sees fit to fire its coaches every few years in order to try to remain competitive with Lafayette, but as I understand you now, it's your coach's declaration of desire to win championships that translates into a public announcement of Lehigh's vote last week? Come on now.

Would you like me to provide all the links from the past two years from Frank Tavani saying the same thing, and coming out in favor of scholarships?

Did Lehigh's board have a vote? Can you please link to something indicating the outcome?

Again, Lehigh is in no position to be telling others what to do.

What kind of BS is that? No one fired anyone. Higgins left to become QB coach with the Detroit Lions and Lembo left at an opportunity to coach with SCHOLARSHIPS in a CONFERENCE that wants to compete NATIONALLY. Coen is still here, thanks to his third straight azz-whippin' of the spotted pussies. I don't recall LC's AD making any pronouncements about Lafayette's philosophy of wanting to compete for a football national championship. The reason you don't see the PL presidents "out there" on the record as to their position is because of the infernal internal agreement to not make public statements until a consensus is reached. Obviously, Weiss never got the memo, can't read, or is in such fear of his faculty that he broke from the agreement. I don't see Lehigh telling anyone what to do. If anyone has tried to tell others what to do it is Fordham, and they're doing it by their action. I think Colgate and Lehigh could well be joining the Rams by 2012 if the landscape doesn't change.

[superman7515]

Fortunately, being a Mets fan, I have no reason to focus on the sunny side of life. Accordingly, I can continue to brood indefinitely about being chained to a rock and pecked to death by people like Daniel Weiss, Ollie Perez, Carolyn Schlie Femovich, Jeffrey Herbst and Luis Castillo, not to mention Javier Molina.

Looking forward to a game in NYC in a few years. How about that Bobby Bonilla contract? Haha

[blukeys]

You're going to have a tough time convincing the entire Ivy League to drop to Division III, but good luck with that.

One other thing - with UMass potentially joining the MAC, it will not be in a position to compete for the mythical BCS national championship. Should the MAC just drop to Division III as well?


I have no clue what you are talking about. I never once said anything about the Ivy League going to D-3.

What I did convey was that I think Fordham works for me in the CAA.

I also think that there are 2 tiers in the PL. One tier wants to seriously contend for national titles.

The other tier wants to be like the Ivies and pretend that football is not being played elsewhere.

[DFW HOYA]

I also think that there are 2 tiers in the PL. One tier wants to seriously contend for national titles. The other tier wants to be like the Ivies and pretend that football is not being played elsewhere.

If they want to seriously contend for national titles, they're probably in the wrong conference. The PL's rules make a national title all but infeasible anymore.

The two tiers are a) teams that spend to win vs. b) teams that spend to compete. There might be a third tier but I'll refrain from that comparison...

[ngineer]

If they want to seriously contend for national titles, they're probably in the wrong conference. The PL's rules make a national title all but infeasible anymore.

The two tiers are a) teams that spend to win vs. b) teams that spend to compete. There might be a third tier but I'll refrain from that comparison...

To paraphrase Smokey Robinsion: "Tiers of the clowns" "Send them in....

[LURules]

To paraphrase Smokey Robinsion: "Tiers of the clowns" "Send them in....

Well now that they are done with last week's big "decision" they are available...

[colorless raider]

If they want to seriously contend for national titles, they're probably in the wrong conference. The PL's rules make a national title all but infeasible anymore.

The two tiers are a) teams that spend to win vs. b) teams that spend to compete. There might be a third tier but I'll refrain from that comparison...

Infeasible??? back to campus DFW.

[blukeys]

If they want to seriously contend for national titles, they're probably in the wrong conference. The PL's rules make a national title all but infeasible anymore.
..


If a National Title is infeasible for the PL, can you explain to me why the PL should have an AQ for the playoffs ???

Let me know what it is in the PL Makeup that makes it "infeasible" to win a NC. Colgate made a good run in '03 and ran into one of the best FCS teams of all time in the finals.

I am an outsider here and I have zero investment in this debate. But logically I see others who believe that with the right conditions PL teams could compete for the NC.

[MplsBison]

If a National Title is infeasible for the PL, can you explain to me why the PL should have an AQ for the playoffs ???

Let me know what it is in the PL Makeup that makes it "infeasible" to win a NC. Colgate made a good run in '03 and ran into one of the best FCS teams of all time in the finals.

I am an outsider here and I have zero investment in this debate. But logically I see others who believe that with the right conditions PL teams could compete for the NC.

The PL's top team had to play the MVFC's top team on the road this year and still beat them.

The MVFC schools can offer a full scholarship to basically any high school or juco player who meets the minimum academic requirements of the NCAA. That's a huge recruiting advantage over the PL - yet the PL school still won.

Point is, so long as the PL's AQ team can still win a playoff game what real incentive is there to change anything? Only once the PL starts being consistently blown out in the FCS playoffs will things change.

[ngineer]

The PL's top team had to play the MVFC's top team on the road this year and still beat them.

The MVFC schools can offer a full scholarship to basically any high school or juco player who meets the minimum academic requirements of the NCAA. That's a huge recruiting advantage over the PL - yet the PL school still won.

Point is, so long as the PL's AQ team can still win a playoff game what real incentive is there to change anything? Only once the PL starts being consistently blown out in the FCS playoffs will things change.

I will agree with you. And I will agree that under the right conditions and with some breaks a PL team can make one of those unlikely runs that make for a great David and Golaith story. But I think what we're seeking is to be able to be in a position to be able to stand toe to toe with the CAA on a more frequent basis. One of the major differences between a PL team and a CAA team is depth. Same difference one sees (usually) when a good FCS team goes up against a BCS team. Like Lehigh did this year at Delaware. We hung pretty tough for the first half, but over the full 60 minutes the lack of depth and the number of skill people usually comes to the fore. So I think we're really looking at trying to become more competitive on a regular basis as opposed to always having to play the almost perfect games to make it to Frisco.

[MplsBison]

I will agree with you. And I will agree that under the right conditions and with some breaks a PL team can make one of those unlikely runs that make for a great David and Golaith story. But I think what we're seeking is to be able to be in a position to be able to stand toe to toe with the CAA on a more frequent basis. One of the major differences between a PL team and a CAA team is depth. Same difference one sees (usually) when a good FCS team goes up against a BCS team. Like Lehigh did this year at Delaware. We hung pretty tough for the first half, but over the full 60 minutes the lack of depth and the number of skill people usually comes to the fore. So I think we're really looking at trying to become more competitive on a regular basis as opposed to always having to play the almost perfect games to make it to Frisco.

Hear you loud and clear.

Question though: if Lehigh would offer 63 scholarship equivalencies every season under the current system (AI restrictions + need-based restrictions), would the problem you describe above be any better or about the same? As I understand, Lehigh only offers scholarship equivalencies in the 50s, meaning if you wanted you could be giving out arond 10 more scholarships worth of money to players. Not sure why you aren't closer to the limit. Is it because of the PL system or just because that's what you can afford?

So I guess what I'm getting at is, even if a "PL scholarship" means a player gets the money regardless of need (assuming and hoping that's true) and even if Lehigh (or any PL school) gives 63 scholarships worth of money to players - is the AI so restictive that you still won't be able to get enough talent on the field to stand toe to toe with CAA schools? Or do you really think getting rid of the need-based restrictions and maybe getting closer to 63 will do the trick?

[ngineer]

Hear you loud and clear.

Question though: if Lehigh would offer 63 scholarship equivalencies every season under the current system (AI restrictions + need-based restrictions), would the problem you describe above be any better or about the same? As I understand, Lehigh only offers scholarship equivalencies in the 50s, meaning if you wanted you could be giving out arond 10 more scholarships worth of money to players. Not sure why you aren't closer to the limit. Is it because of the PL system or just because that's what you can afford?

So I guess what I'm getting at is, even if a "PL scholarship" means a player gets the money regardless of need (assuming and hoping that's true) and even if Lehigh (or any PL school) gives 63 scholarships worth of money to players - is the AI so restictive that you still won't be able to get enough talent on the field to stand toe to toe with CAA schools? Or do you really think getting rid of the need-based restrictions and maybe getting closer to 63 will do the trick?

Our current equivalency limit is based on what the budget can carry, from what I know. It is my understanding that going scholarship would not result in more money for football expenditure, but free up our ability to go after some excellent kids that we have had to write off or lose to the Ivy League, the NEC or some lesser FBS schools. If some sugar daddy steps up with more money, I don't see us going to 63 schollies.

Freeing up our ability to recruit will help. Will it make us on complete even footing? No. The CAA, SoCon and others also liberally use red-shirting a good portion of their freshmen. In the PL, only a medical redshirt is allowed through an application process. On any given year, a PL team may have 2-4 medical redshirts on the squad. I know from firsthand experience, a lot of young guys really benefit from that extra year, both in growing physically and mentally/emotionally. Plus, spreading the academic load over 5 years helps alot of marginal students.

The AI will always restrict us and will not change. Lehigh will not change it's philosophy that the athletes at the University are supposed to generally reflect the student body. With average SAT's around 1350 and admissions standards rising, that will always be a problem, but too me one we should be willing to assume. A certain 'deviation' is allowed from the school's median scores, but I'm not sure how if technically works.

Bottom line for me: Scholarhships will allow us to recruit a good number of students who we either ignored from the beginning because we knew it would be a worthless exercise or eventually ended up losing to them to the Ivy, NEC, CAA, or a Temple.

[DFW HOYA]

If a National Title is infeasible for the PL, can you explain to me why the PL should have an AQ for the playoffs ???
Let me know what it is in the PL Makeup that makes it "infeasible" to win a NC. Colgate made a good run in '03 and ran into one of the best FCS teams of all time in the finals. I am an outsider here and I have zero investment in this debate. But logically I see others who believe that with the right conditions PL teams could compete for the NC.

I said infeasible (impractical), not impossible.

Colgate made its run in 2003 on the strength of a great regular season (ironically, nearly derailed at rhe start in a 20-19 win on the last play of the game over Georgetown). It earned the benefit of hosting the first two rounds of the playoffs at Andy Kerr Stadium, where it had won 13 of its last 16 dating to the 2000 season. Colgate won 18 straight over two years heading into the playoffs and was ranked as high as #2 that season, despite having played only one full scholarship program all that season.

So what has changed that would preclude this again?

1. Playoff bids are awarded to schools that can either guarantee a large gate or will pay for the privilege of doing so. It is unlikely that, given the larger stadiums among CAA schools, that a PL champion would be awarded consecutive home games into the semifinal or would pay for doing so.
2. Seeding for the tournament is increasingly dependent on strength of schedule. The PL's preponderance of Ivy games would preclude the top 5 ranking which would give it a chance of significant opportunity for home games. FWIW, Colgate's lone scholarship team that season was a win at Buffalo, but PL teams are not counters for I-A schools as most other I-AA teams are, making such a schedule boost an unlikely one.
3. The PL's academic restrictions on recruiting continues to limit the ability of recruiting imapct players that can lead a team through the playoffs. Roughly 85% of all high school football prospects are, by default, ineligible to be recruited by a PL school. That Jamaal Branch landed at Colgate was a fortuitous one, even more so when he left school in 2002 for poor grades and then returned for his senior year. Branch won the Walter Payton Award that year (the previous two winners were Brian Westbrook and Tony Romo) and that level of talent is not often recruited nor signed in the PL.

So, could a nonscholarship PL team with a below-average strength of schedule in 2011 run the table with an NFL-quality runner, ascend to the top of the polls, and secure home field playoff bids? Not impossible, but not likely, either.

Would scholarships change this equation? Well, it would be a start.

[MplsBison]

Our current equivalency limit is based on what the budget can carry, from what I know. It is my understanding that going scholarship would not result in more money for football expenditure, but free up our ability to go after some excellent kids that we have had to write off or lose to the Ivy League, the NEC or some lesser FBS schools. If some sugar daddy steps up with more money, I don't see us going to 63 schollies.

Freeing up our ability to recruit will help. Will it make us on complete even footing? No. The CAA, SoCon and others also liberally use red-shirting a good portion of their freshmen. In the PL, only a medical redshirt is allowed through an application process. On any given year, a PL team may have 2-4 medical redshirts on the squad. I know from firsthand experience, a lot of young guys really benefit from that extra year, both in growing physically and mentally/emotionally. Plus, spreading the academic load over 5 years helps alot of marginal students.

The AI will always restrict us and will not change. Lehigh will not change it's philosophy that the athletes at the University are supposed to generally reflect the student body. With average SAT's around 1350 and admissions standards rising, that will always be a problem, but too me one we should be willing to assume. A certain 'deviation' is allowed from the school's median scores, but I'm not sure how if technically works.

Bottom line for me: Scholarhships will allow us to recruit a good number of students who we either ignored from the beginning because we knew it would be a worthless exercise or eventually ended up losing to them to the Ivy, NEC, CAA, or a Temple.

Like I said in another thread, I'm not so convinced anymore than redshirts are all they're cracked up to be. Not after NDSU made it to the 3rd round of the playoffs with two true freshman on the OL and several true and redshirt freshman playing significant roles on offense, defense and special teams. And I'm not so sure that being able to offer a redshirt is a recruiting advantage either. Can you really go into the living room of a senior in high school and say "and I just want to make sure you fully understand that you won't be playing next year". Does that sell kids on the program? So there's that - I don't see the PL at a huge disadvantage there.

And I understand that the AI is what it is and as long as it's there, it doesn't matter if it's a scholarship, grant, loan, whatever. And more importantly (and what's actually important), Lehigh's admission standards are tough enough that only student-athletes with the appropriate academic ability will get into the school. So there's that - it shouldn't affect recruiting any differently than it does today.



So then, what is going to change with scholarships? Because you say: "Bottom line for me: Scholarhships will allow us to recruit a good number of students who we either ignored from the beginning because we knew it would be a worthless exercise or eventually ended up losing to them to the Ivy, NEC, CAA, or a Temple." Why is that true? Is it just because of the getting rid of the need-based restrictions? Really? That is going to have such an impact? I'm not trying to be demeaning, I'm generally interested in the proposed changes. Thanks

[DFW HOYA]

So then, what is going to change with scholarships? Because you say: "Bottom line for me: Scholarhships will allow us to recruit a good number of students who we either ignored from the beginning because we knew it would be a worthless exercise or eventually ended up losing to them to the Ivy, NEC, CAA, or a Temple." Why is that true? Is it just because of the getting rid of the need-based restrictions? Really? That is going to have such an impact? I'm not trying to be demeaning, I'm generally interested in the proposed changes. Thanks

In general, scholarships would offer PL teams the ability to recruit players who, by the nature of their family income, would be ineligible for financial aid otherwise and the lack thereof makes attending a PL school a financial hardship. For "most" PL schools, a lot of players are either getting full-need or able to pay $50K a year, which leaves out the vast middle class to whom a full scholarship would be a powerful selling point for a PL education versus a comparable NEC or CAA program.

[ngineer]

In general, scholarships would offer PL teams the ability to recruit players who, by the nature of their family income, would be ineligible for financial aid otherwise and the lack thereof makes attending a PL school a financial hardship. For "most" PL schools, a lot of players are either getting full-need or able to pay $50K a year, which leaves out the vast middle class to whom a full scholarship would be a powerful selling point for a PL education versus a comparable NEC or CAA program.

Pretty good summary. I know we lost a kid to Penn State a few years ago who was a 'preferred walk on' at PSU. We offered him a package of about $25,000, which meant he still had to pay about $25k to go to Lehigh. He took a preferred walk on role at PSU at about the same price, but then received a scholarship the following year. So four years at PSU for $25,000 versus four years at Lehigh for >$100,000 (as tuition goes up every year). Had we been able to give him a full ride, that may have tilted the table in our favor.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I believe Lehigh and Colgate are going to increase their financial aid the next couple years in preperation for scholarships. As long as there isn't a cap within the league on equivalencies i don't see what would stop them.

I could be completely wrong ,but imo, Lehigh, Fordham and Colgate are going to be much better than the rest of the league these next two years.

[Franks Tanks]

I believe Lehigh and Colgate are going to increase their financial aid the next couple years in preperation for scholarships. As long as there isn't a cap within the league on equivalencies i don't see what would stop them.

I could be completely wrong ,but imo, Lehigh, Fordham and Colgate are going to be much better than the rest of the league these next two years.

Lafayette spent more on football than Lehigh last year (poor ROI). In two years if those teams are spending a lot more than the 4.2 million spent by Lafayette, they will probbaly be the highest spending teams in FCS.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm not aware of any PL limit on equivalencies (except for the FCS limit of 63). Lafayette usually has around 50 equivalencies, I'm told, and Colgate has closer to 60. I don't see how a marginal increase is going to change things all that much without being able to attract the players described in DFW's post. But I'm also not aware of any league restriction on any school offering up to 63 equivalencies right now. They just can't be merit-based scholarships.


Query - if you're H-Y-P and you don't "count" athletic aid even though practically everyone on the team attends college at no cost, are you limited even by the 63 scholarship rule?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Query - if you're H-Y-P and you don't "count" athletic aid even though practically everyone on the team attends college at no cost, are you limited even by the 63 scholarship rule?

Almost everyone in the school is "scholarshipped" in some way, which means it's very likely that even the walk-ons are getting aid. However, they also need to adhere to the AI, and if you're a walk-on you're almost certainly a top-band kid since those lower band kids are precious.

Few people really understand how the fact that the Ivy League scrapped the "one Ivy" policy in the 90s truly tipped the scales towards H-Y-P. When the IL and PL were more joined at the hip in the 80s and 90s, need-based aid made more sense since no IL school could offer a better package than the Ivy package, and the packages were the same across all schools. But today with the "GDP of Bolivia" schools scholarshipping everyone, H-Y-P have an insurmountable advantage over the rest of the IL and, by extension, the PL.

That's even before Harvard's games of mysterious recruits who sit out for a year for "academics" - no redshirting here, right? - or "our MVP quarterback is out for the year since a BCS player transferred back for his seventh season.... Oh wait... BCS guy is hurt? Miraculous recovery!"

[Franks Tanks]

Almost everyone in the school is "scholarshipped" in some way, which means it's very likely that even the walk-ons are getting aid. However, they also need to adhere to the AI, and if you're a walk-on you're almost certainly a top-band kid since those lower band kids are precious.

Few people really understand how the fact that the Ivy League scrapped the "one Ivy" policy in the 90s truly tipped the scales towards H-Y-P. When the IL and PL were more joined at the hip in the 80s and 90s, need-based aid made more sense since no IL school could offer a better package than the Ivy package, and the packages were the same across all schools. But today with the "GDP of Bolivia" schools scholarshipping everyone, H-Y-P have an insurmountable advantage over the rest of the IL and, by extension, the PL.

That's even before Harvard's games of mysterious recruits who sit out for a year for "academics" - no redshirting here, right? - or "our MVP quarterback is out for the year since a BCS player transferred back for his seventh season.... Oh wait... BCS guy is hurt? Miraculous recovery!"

And then you have the Harvard baskeball team making a mockery of Ivy rules.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm not aware of any PL limit on equivalencies (except for the FCS limit of 63). Lafayette usually has around 50 equivalencies, I'm told, and Colgate has closer to 60.

Fifty? I can only imagine (underline imagine) if Georgetown was playing with 50.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Fifty? I can only imagine (underline imagine) if Georgetown was playing with 50.

Considerably less that 50 this year, as I understand it.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Lafayette spent more on football than Lehigh last year (poor ROI). In two years if those teams are spending a lot more than the 4.2 million spent by Lafayette, they will probbaly be the highest spending teams in FCS.

But didn't Lafayette reduce their equivalencies the last couple years?

[ngineer]

It's my understanding Lehigh is at roughly 53-54 equalencies. So to go up another 10 would require another $500K. Not sure where that is coming from unless some alum kicked with a large bequest...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It's my understanding Lehigh is at roughly 53-54 equalencies. So to go up another 10 would require another $500K. Not sure where that is coming from unless some alum kicked with a large bequest...

Where is Colgate?

It would be nice to get the equivalencies to the point where it counts towards FBS bowl eligibilty. That would open up a money game to help generate money back in to the program.

[Franks Tanks]

But didn't Lafayette reduce their equivalencies the last couple years?

We dipped down into the mid-40's but will be back to the mid-50's norm after this recruiting cycle (most likley). Last year's class was large and I expect this one to be large as well.

[DFW HOYA]

So what is the rough number for each PL school?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We dipped down into the mid-40's but will be back to the mid-50's norm after this recruiting cycle (most likley). Last year's class was large and I expect this one to be large as well.

It is my understanding that Lehigh a couple years ago was lower than the mid-50s, FYI, so I'd guess that it's the sort of thing that ebbs and flows.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We dipped down into the mid-40's but will be back to the mid-50's norm after this recruiting cycle (most likley). Last year's class was large and I expect this one to be large as well.

It is my understanding that Lehigh a couple years ago was lower than the mid-50s, FYI, so I'd guess that it's the sort of thing that ebbs and flows.

[Go...gate]

I'm not aware of any PL limit on equivalencies (except for the FCS limit of 63). Lafayette usually has around 50 equivalencies, I'm told, and Colgate has closer to 60. I don't see how a marginal increase is going to change things all that much without being able to attract the players described in DFW's post. But I'm also not aware of any league restriction on any school offering up to 63 equivalencies right now. They just can't be merit-based scholarships.


Query - if you're H-Y-P and you don't "count" athletic aid even though practically everyone on the team attends college at no cost, are you limited even by the 63 scholarship rule?

Yes.

[Franks Tanks]

It is my understanding that Lehigh a couple years ago was lower than the mid-50s, FYI, so I'd guess that it's the sort of thing that ebbs and flows.


Probably. We had a small recruiting class in 08 by design, and I think we had a lot of unexpected defections of full aid or close to full aid kids that caused our numbers to dip. Also a large reason behind our lack of depth and poor record this past year.

[the last indian]

Let me clear up a few things. First, Lehigh and Colgate are both in favor of scholarships for football. If you don't know that you haven't ask many people who would know. Second, my information is that Colgate is close, if not already, spending what they would if they had scholarships. Third, Fordham's experience is that their recruiting costs when down substantially. Earlier commits, less travel and a much easier process to manage.
Lastly, IMO, the league is doomed without scholarships, so the irony is that by deferring the decision for the good of the league actually drove a nail in the coffin. At this rate there will not be much worth saving in 2 years.
My dream is the Lehigh and Colgate have the cojonies that Fordham demonstrated and informed the league that they are adopting scholarships for the 2012 season. Let Weiss and other then figure out what to do.

[Franks Tanks]

Let me clear up a few things. First, Lehigh and Colgate are both in favor of scholarships for football. If you don't know that you haven't ask many people who would know. Second, my information is that Colgate is close, if not already, spending what they would if they had scholarships. Third, Fordham's experience is that their recruiting costs when down substantially. Earlier commits, less travel and a much easier process to manage.
Lastly, IMO, the league is doomed without scholarships, so the irony is that by deferring the decision for the good of the league actually drove a nail in the coffin. At this rate there will not be much worth saving in 2 years.
My dream is the Lehigh and Colgate have the cojonies that Fordham demonstrated and informed the league that they are adopting scholarships for the 2012 season. Let Weiss and other then figure out what to do.

If you do that then much if not all of the league will probably follow. Why don't the Lehigh and Colgate prexies grow a pair and push it through if they are in favor?

[the last indian]

Ah, therein lies the conundrum and maybe the light in the tunnel. College Presidents are not exactly know for their bold actions, but with the Trustees and others providing cover, it is possible. I don't know what the Lehigh participants would say and I would like to know their opinion. I would ask them to consider opinions that extend beyond the fanatical poster community and whether they can generate a wider consensus to push towards making this move. I do sense a huge let down and frustration with this decision and I doubt that the reverberations will calm down soon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you do that then much if not all of the league will probably follow. Why don't the Lehigh and Colgate prexies grow a pair and push it through if they are in favor?

Here's a thought.

What if both of you are right? What if the following transpired:

Fordham, Colgate, Lehigh: We're going scholarships, either in the Patriot League or without.

Lafayette, Georgetown: If the Patriot League goes scholarships, we're joining the PFL.

With a "Yes" or "No" vote, in either case, the league is history.

Therefore? Table the resolution, "study it some more", keep Fordham (for now), keep Colgate and Lehigh and Lafayette and Georgetown, hope that things can be fixed before the CAA sweeps in and takes Fordham. That way, the Patriot League continues, which is a better outcome than having a four or five-school conference one way or another. Both scenarios mean lost autobids, tough situations for expansion... there are a lot of ugly outcomes, with a vote either way not least the collapse of the PL.

I'm beginning to think the truth is closer to this scenario - that it was table the vote, or stop Patriot League football. Which is an incredible conclusion, incidentally.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I don't believe for a second that Lehigh and Colgate are going sit back and watch Fordham pontentially out recruit them knowing they could remain conference members. It's my belief that Lehigh and Colgate will max out however many equivalencies they're allowed to battle the lack of scholarships.

[hawkineer]

My dream is the Lehigh and Colgate have the cojonies that Fordham demonstrated and informed the league that they are adopting scholarships for the 2012 season. Let Weiss and other then figure out what to do.

I think me and many fellow Lehigh fans share your dream. xnodx I am not convinced that the powers to be at Lehigh or Colgate have the gonads to play some Texas Holdem' with the rest of the league members.

[LURules]

Like I said in another thread, I'm not so convinced anymore than redshirts are all they're cracked up to be. Not after NDSU made it to the 3rd round of the playoffs with two true freshman on the OL and several true and redshirt freshman playing significant roles on offense, defense and special teams. And I'm not so sure that being able to offer a redshirt is a recruiting advantage either. Can you really go into the living room of a senior in high school and say "and I just want to make sure you fully understand that you won't be playing next year". Does that sell kids on the program? So there's that - I don't see the PL at a huge disadvantage there.

And I understand that the AI is what it is and as long as it's there, it doesn't matter if it's a scholarship, grant, loan, whatever. And more importantly (and what's actually important), Lehigh's admission standards are tough enough that only student-athletes with the appropriate academic ability will get into the school. So there's that - it shouldn't affect recruiting any differently than it does today.



So then, what is going to change with scholarships? Because you say: "Bottom line for me: Scholarhships will allow us to recruit a good number of students who we either ignored from the beginning because we knew it would be a worthless exercise or eventually ended up losing to them to the Ivy, NEC, CAA, or a Temple." Why is that true? Is it just because of the getting rid of the need-based restrictions? Really? That is going to have such an impact? I'm not trying to be demeaning, I'm generally interested in the proposed changes. Thanks

I agree that the AI will always be an issue (not an excuse). The difference with scholarships is that you can give aid to any kid, not just those under a certain income level. As long as the AI is there, it will be the biggest hurdle, but scholarships remove the high income hurdle.

[DFW HOYA]

Here's a thought. What if both of you are right? What if the following transpired: Fordham, Colgate, Lehigh: We're going scholarships, either in the Patriot League or without. Lafayette, Georgetown: If the Patriot League goes scholarships, we're joining the PFL. With a "Yes" or "No" vote, in either case, the league is history.

Can we make some effort to dispel the myth of the Pioneer Football League in this argument?

Teams join the PFL for one of two (and only two) reasons: cost and a need to secure enough I-AA opponents to meet NCAA requirements. Neither apply to teams in the Patriot League, who have a variety of options among Ivy, NEC, CAA, and MEAC schools within its region to build a schedule among.


Pioneer teams allow no equivalencies. As such, Lafayette is not going to drop $3 million from its budget to play Mercer and Jacksonville.
Pioneer teams must commit to nationwide travel to complete its schedule. Georgetown has no interest in games at Campbell or Morehead State.
Pioneer teams often play sub-Division I teams within its schedule for competitive balance. Holy Cross has no interest with games at Assumption and Bentley.


The Pioneer works for those who need it to work, namely, schools in disparate regions where there are insufficient schools of comparable strength to play. If Elon, Liberty, Prebyterian, Wofford, The Citadel and VMI were all nonscholarship, Davidson wouldn't need to be playing San Diego and Drake, would they?

Let's take the Pioneer out of these scenarios.

[ngineer]

Can we make some effort to dispel the myth of the Pioneer Football League in this argument?

Teams join the PFL for one of two (and only two) reasons: cost and a need to secure enough I-AA opponents to meet NCAA requirements. Neither apply to teams in the Patriot League, who have a variety of options among Ivy, NEC, CAA, and MEAC schools within its region to build a schedule among.


Pioneer teams allow no equivalencies. As such, Lafayette is not going to drop $3 million from its budget to play Mercer and Jacksonville.
Pioneer teams must commit to nationwide travel to complete its schedule. Georgetown has no interest in games at Campbell or Morehead State.
Pioneer teams often play sub-Division I teams within its schedule for competitive balance. Holy Cross has no interest with games at Assumption and Bentley.


The Pioneer works for those who need it to work, namely, schools in disparate regions where there are insufficient schools of comparable strength to play. If Elon, Liberty, Prebyterian, Wofford, The Citadel and VMI were all nonscholarship, Davidson wouldn't need to be playing San Diego and Drake, would they?

Let's take the Pioneer out of these scenarios.

I've always been curious about the "cost" savings in the PFL with their ridiculous travel requirements. I agree, though, that I see no future for any PL schools joining the PFL.

Colgate and Lehigh will only 'force' the issue if they feel they can do it financially AND there is no other way in their view to resolve the issue. Academic presidents like to see themselves as "consensus builders" as opposed to Rambo 'negotiators' using leverage. Whether the alumni base at either schools is vociferous enough on this issue is doubtful--especially at Lehigh. Yes, there is a core group who support athletics, but in the grand scheme of things I don't think it is big enough to provide enough financial muscle to force the issue by going out on our own. Those of us on this Board do not reflect the general views of the alumni population...otherwise there'd be a lot more of us.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette, Georgetown: If the Patriot League goes scholarships, we're joining the PFL.



Lafayette already belongs to a league - one it helped create. That league does not allow its full members to pick and chose sports in which to participate. The same applies to Colgate and Lehigh. In other words, Lafayette may not play football elsewhere (it has no desire to do so in any event). Nor may Lehigh.

Lehigh may, however, choose to resign its membership and bring its 25 varsity sports elsewhere (if it can locate a conference to sponsor them). If Lehigh wants to go play lacrosse, basketball and field hockey in the NEC or something, well, good luck with that. But Lafayette isn't going anywhere.

I remain mystified as to where you come up with these notions.

[Sader87]

The idea (or proposed idea) that Holy Cross would join either the NEC or PFL in football, with a steady diet/schedule of the likes of Wagner, St Francis (PA), Valparaiso, Morehead St. et. al. is laughable. There is barely a pulse of any alumni/local support in Worcester for Patriot League football as is....I guarantee you HC would drop football before this ever happened.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The idea (or proposed idea) that Holy Cross would join either the NEC or PFL in football, with a steady diet/schedule of the likes of Wagner, St Francis (PA), Valparaiso, Morehead St. et. al. is laughable. There is barely a pulse of any alumni/local support in Worcester for Patriot League football as is....I guarantee you HC would drop football before this ever happened.

You mean Holy Cross isn't willing to sacrifice itself so that Lehigh can Achieve National Prominence and Compete for Championships?

How selfish of you.

[Go...gate]

Ah, therein lies the conundrum and maybe the light in the tunnel. College Presidents are not exactly know for their bold actions, but with the Trustees and others providing cover, it is possible. I don't know what the Lehigh participants would say and I would like to know their opinion. I would ask them to consider opinions that extend beyond the fanatical poster community and whether they can generate a wider consensus to push towards making this move. I do sense a huge letdown and frustration with this decision and I doubt that the reverberations will calm down soon.

Agreed.

[MplsBison]

In general, scholarships would offer PL teams the ability to recruit players who, by the nature of their family income, would be ineligible for financial aid otherwise and the lack thereof makes attending a PL school a financial hardship. For "most" PL schools, a lot of players are either getting full-need or able to pay $50K a year, which leaves out the vast middle class to whom a full scholarship would be a powerful selling point for a PL education versus a comparable NEC or CAA program.

Ok, fair enough. I was hoping and kinda figured that for scholarships to have any significant effect it would have to get rid of one of the two ridiculous, faux-ethical restrictions that the PL dictates to its members.

Now you just have to wonder "what the heck were they thinkin?" when PL teams agreed that it would be a good idea to only award athletic aid based on need. Foolish.

[Sader87]

Ok, fair enough. I was hoping and kinda figured that for scholarships to have any significant effect it would have to get rid of one of the two ridiculous, faux-ethical restrictions that the PL dictates to its members.

Now you just have to wonder "what the heck were they thinkin?" when PL teams agreed that it would be a good idea to only award athletic aid based on need. Foolish.

Believe me, I don't (or never did) know the "ins and outs" of the Colonial/Patriot League "idea" of merit aid as opposed to outright scholarships. That being said, the League was formed in the early/mid 80's in many ways in response to the rampant commercialization (tame by today's standards) of NCAA athletics of the era (Marcus Dupree, SMU etc. etc.).

It was a noble, if flawed experiment.

[DFW HOYA]

Believe me, I don't (or never did) know the "ins and outs" of the Colonial/Patriot League "idea" of merit aid as opposed to outright scholarships. That being said, the League was formed in the early/mid 80's in many ways in response to the rampant commercialization (tame by today's standards) of NCAA athletics of the era (Marcus Dupree, SMU etc. etc.). It was a noble, if flawed experiment.

The Patriot League was a reaction to the need to maintain suitable (read=nonscholarship and indexed) competition for the Ivy League.

[Sader87]

The Patriot League was a reaction to the need to maintain suitable (read=nonscholarship and indexed) competition for the Ivy League.

Agreed...but the IL "model" (of the early-mid 80's) if you will, was seen by Fr Brooks (and others) as the way to go rather than continuing in the "entertainment business."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lafayette already belongs to a league - one it helped create. That league does not allow its full members to pick and chose sports in which to participate. The same applies to Colgate and Lehigh. In other words, Lafayette may not play football elsewhere (it has no desire to do so in any event). Nor may Lehigh.

Lehigh may, however, choose to resign its membership and bring its 25 varsity sports elsewhere (if it can locate a conference to sponsor them). If Lehigh wants to go play lacrosse, basketball and field hockey in the NEC or something, well, good luck with that. But Lafayette isn't going anywhere.

I remain mystified as to where you come up with these notions.

And yet, ALL members of the League were prohibited from offering merit-based aid - until Fordham just went ahead and did it.

Holy Cross wasn't "allowed" to yank basketball out of the league if it wasn't allowed to offer football scholarships - yet they threatened to do so anyway.

But you're missing the point. Assuming that a five-team league is the end of the Patriot League, effectively, the balance could have been broken both ways: if two schools said "If merit-based aid is coming, we're gone", OR "If merit-based aid ISN'T coming, we're gone", either scenario would be enough to break up the league.

That means two determined "yes" votes or two determined "no" votes would be enough to force inaction. And a compromise that sees both affiliates leave would ALSO cause gridlock - if done wrong, Fordham leaves since they couldn't hit 63, and Georgetown leaves due to a minimum scholly level that it is unwilling to maintain - then THAT sinks the league since it becomes a five team league that loses its autobid.

No wonder it's called the Patriot League. It's as complicated as the First Continental Congress.

Too bad there's no Ben Franklin to broker an acceptable compromise...

[the last indian]

Bogus said' "Lafayette already belongs to a league - one it helped create. That league does not allow its full members to pick and chose sports in which to participate. The same applies to Colgate and Lehigh. In other words, Lafayette may not play football elsewhere (it has no desire to do so in any event). Nor may Lehigh.

Lehigh may, however, choose to resign its membership and bring its 25 varsity sports elsewhere (if it can locate a conference to sponsor them). If Lehigh wants to go play lacrosse, basketball and field hockey in the NEC or something, well, good luck with that. But Lafayette isn't going anywhere.

I remain mystified as to where you come up with these notions."

Well, I hope that Lehigh and Colgate" Presidents recognize that their first responsibility is to their respective institutions and act accordingly. The Lafayette will be left hold their collective "johnsons". I am sure that both LU and CU can find some opponents and some nice pay days with D1 teams.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Lafayette will be left hold their collective "johnsons".

Aren't you special, Last Indian. Did you make that up all by yourself, or did your mom help?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/lehigh/index.ssf/2010/12/lehigh_university_athletic_dir.html


In his first public comment since the Patriot League presidents voted last week to table the matter of football scholarships for two years, Lehigh University Athletic Director Joe Sterrett said he was "disappointed" by the decision.

"A part of my disappointment is based on the time that has been devoted to this subject, but that is purely a personal perspective. Obviously, more time is required," Sterret said in an e-mail statement.

The athletic director lamented the lack of clarity about the league's future, which he says a final decision would have provided. He noted the impact this decision will have on coaches' scheduling and recruiting.

Noting the importance of the league on all sports, Sterrett pointed out its importance in grounding teams in the right principles.

"I remain hopeful about the future of our league," Sterrett said, "though those hopes are tempered by and respectful of the challenges that must be confronted and resolved. Irrespective of the recent league announcement regarding the continuing discussions our presidents will have about financial aid, we, at Lehigh, are excited about and confident in the future of Lehigh's football program."

Not much new here, but Lehigh is no longer silent on this matter.

[colorless raider]

The Patriot League was a reaction to the need to maintain suitable (read=nonscholarship and indexed) competition for the Ivy League.

You are right on. The Puppet League.

[colorless raider]

Aren't you special, Last Indian. Did you make that up all by yourself, or did your mom help?

Bettcha Jack Bouger liked that one.

[DFW HOYA]

"I remain hopeful about the future of our league," Sterrett said, "though those hopes are tempered by and respectful of the challenges that must be confronted and resolved. Irrespective of the recent league announcement regarding the continuing discussions our presidents will have about financial aid, we, at Lehigh, are excited about and confident in the future of Lehigh's football program."


Not a strong vote of confidence for the league itself.

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/lehigh/index.ssf/2010/12/lehigh_university_athletic_dir.html



Not much new here, but Lehigh is no longer silent on this matter.

I'm sure every coach and athletic director in the league is equally disappointed. I wonder if Sterrett knows how Lehigh's Alice Gast voted on the issue. The article doesn't say one way or the other.

[Andy]

Probably. We had a small recruiting class in 08 by design, and I think we had a lot of unexpected defections of full aid or close to full aid kids that caused our numbers to dip. Also a large reason behind our lack of depth and poor record this past year.

From Newsday, Dec 15:

According to Patriot League media relations director Matt Dougherty, "In the most recent four-year average, no school gave out more than 56 need-based equivalencies, and five of our seven [schools] were below 50 equivalencies." So, the debate will continue in the Patriot League about how much to invest in football and whether the commitment will produce dividends.

[Seawolf97]

From Newsday, Dec 15:

According to Patriot League media relations director Matt Dougherty, "In the most recent four-year average, no school gave out more than 56 need-based equivalencies, and five of our seven [schools] were below 50 equivalencies." So, the debate will continue in the Patriot League about how much to invest in football and whether the commitment will produce dividends.

This doesnt sound all that promising. Commitent equals dollars.

[Go...gate]

From Newsday, Dec 15:

According to Patriot League media relations director Matt Dougherty, "In the most recent four-year average, no school gave out more than 56 need-based equivalencies, and five of our seven [schools] were below 50 equivalencies." So, the debate will continue in the Patriot League about how much to invest in football and whether the commitment will produce dividends.

Always figured that GU and BU were below 50, but five out of seven? Certainly looks like a gradual, unannounced "de-emphasis" of sorts.

[TheValleyRaider]

Always figured that GU and BU were below 50, but five out of seven? Certainly looks like a gradual, unannounced "de-emphasis" of sorts.

It's only a deemphasis if the schools were every above 50 equivalencies. Even Fordham is ramping up to 63 scholarships rather than shifting over, which may suggest they weren't at that level beforehand

I'm almost certain the two above 50 were Colgate and Lehigh, though I couldn't say for sure, but that seems like a pretty solid guess. Even with some of the estimates thrown out for Colgate, we clearly weren't above 56 (per the PL) and it has cost us at least 1 FBS opponent in recent years (almost certainly more, but at least one in particular)

[Go...gate]

It's only a deemphasis if the schools were every above 50 equivalencies. Even Fordham is ramping up to 63 scholarships rather than shifting over, which may suggest they weren't at that level beforehand

I'm almost certain the two above 50 were Colgate and Lehigh, though I couldn't say for sure, but that seems like a pretty solid guess. Even with some of the estimates thrown out for Colgate, we clearly weren't above 56 (per the PL) and it has cost us at least 1 FBS opponent in recent years (almost certainly more, but at least one in particular)

At this rate, we can forget Air Force in 2013 as well. And, of course, there is the breaking story that Dave Roach is a finalist for the AD job at Army as well. Maybe he sees the handwriting on the wall.

[ngineer]

I'm sure every coach and athletic director in the league is equally disappointed. I wonder if Sterrett knows how Lehigh's Alice Gast voted on the issue. The article doesn't say one way or the other.

How she voted in the meeting may be different than the support she has given for the merit based scholarship model. Sterrett has said that Gast supports the concept of merit athletic scholarships. The problem is we don't know how the 'scene was set' at the meeting leading up to the motion to table the vote. Rather than force a confrontation that would not help anyone in the near term; several, including Gast, may well have voted to table rather than force a vote that did not have support at the time. This is all speculation since none of the mice in the corner of the room are speaking.

[TheValleyRaider]

At this rate, we can forget Air Force in 2013 as well. And, of course, there is the breaking story that Dave Roach is a finalist for the AD job at Army as well. Maybe he sees the handwriting on the wall.

Well, AF signed the contract knowing full-well we weren't at the equivalency level, I would guess. Unless we were very persuasive that was going to change by 2013, they signed the deal anyway, and I expect the team to be in Colorado Springs in 2 seasons time

That's the first I've heard of Roach going to Army. Cannot say I've ever been a big fan, so I won't shed tears if he leaves. Where they go for a replacement (in the event of his departure), could say a lot about the administration's position on these things....

[Sly Fox]

I have no knowledge whatsoever of the Air Force contract. But I can tell you that often times FBS schools will have a clause in the contract that requires FCS schools to be a counter by a certain time or the contract is voided. That may or may not be the case in 2013. But it is something to have in the back of your mind.

[Andy]

It's only a deemphasis if the schools were every above 50 equivalencies. Even Fordham is ramping up to 63 scholarships rather than shifting over, which may suggest they weren't at that level beforehand

I'm almost certain the two above 50 were Colgate and Lehigh, though I couldn't say for sure, but that seems like a pretty solid guess. Even with some of the estimates thrown out for Colgate, we clearly weren't above 56 (per the PL) and it has cost us at least 1 FBS opponent in recent years (almost certainly more, but at least one in particular)

I'd guess the two above 50 were Fordham and Colgate.

[TheValleyRaider]

I have no knowledge whatsoever of the Air Force contract. But I can tell you that often times FBS schools will have a clause in the contract that requires FCS schools to be a counter by a certain time or the contract is voided. That may or may not be the case in 2013. But it is something to have in the back of your mind.

Certainly possible, and AF is the kind of school that might be worried about needing counters for bowl eligibility. I'm not really thinking about 2013 yet, more focused on 2011 ;). 2013 will take care of itself when the time comes