The Independence League

[BlueHenSinfonian]

All of the talk about FCS conferences moving to FBS and a recent mention on the App State thread about needing an east coast WAC has me thinking. If enough east coast power teams make the jump, it could create a critical mass where the other competitive programs with big support would have to jump too, or be left to whither with the Towsons and Del States of the FCS.

It seems that if enough major FCS powers moved together, they could create a new FBS conference by also poaching some current FBS teams that can't be happy with their current football situation. This is my idea, The Independence League.

FCS to FBS membership:
Villanova
Delaware
JMU
UMass
ODU
App State

Current FBS converts:
Army
Navy
Temple
Duke
UConn
Syracuse

Basketball and other non-football affiliates:
Richmond
VCU
St Joes
Drexel
Hofstra

This set up keeps some rivalries going, offers some FBS programs with struggling football programs but big basketball success and good name recognition a chance to move into more accessible football waters while keeping the level of basketball play extremely high, and offers the FCS teams a chance to move up to FBS into a conference that covers major media markets (NYC, Philly, DC, plus more) as well as supports football play above the level of the SunBelt or MAC. For the service acadamies it gives chance to find a stable conference home while still having the opportunity to schedule Air Force and Notre Dame as two of their OOC games.

What do you think?

[Sycamore51]

UConn and Syracuse are a stretch at best, Duke is a no way in hell.

[DFW HOYA]

Ummm., no. No one is leaving the ACC to play App State.

The only way a low-level Eastern I-A conference is going to work (e.g., the "Rust Belt") is in an all-sports conference mode, which none of these schools will sign off on:

Temple
Marshall
Delaware
Buffalo
JMU
Liberty
App State
Georgia State

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No. No. No. No. No.

No.

No.

For starters, Army and Navy relish their independence in football. They toyed with being in a conference, and they learned their lesson. They have a sweet deal now, and they're not giving that up.

Next up: Only in St. Joe's and Drexel's wettest of dreams would they be in the same conference as UConn and Syracuse.

I think that's enough.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Since 2000 Duke is 19-97, Syracuse is 46-73, Army is 25-92 and Temple is in the MAC. It seems that if those schools had a chance to improve their football winning percentage without giving up exposure or going to a weaker basketball conference they would do it.

[MacThor]

An Atlantic-10 conference that includes football is more likely in 2013, though I don't see Temple dropping down. UR doesn't want to leave CAA football either, but things are changing so rapidly it's hard to project what the CAA (football) will look like in 3 years.

[OL FU]

Since 2000 Duke is 19-97, Syracuse is 46-73, Army is 25-92 and Temple is in the MAC. It seems that if those schools had a chance to improve their football winning percentage without giving up exposure or going to a weaker basketball conference they would do it.


I have often thought the best ways for east coast schools to move to FBS was to band together and form their own conference so I think the idea is fine. But like others said Duke isn't leaving the ACC because of basketball. Doesn't matter how much their football program sucks.

[DFW HOYA]

UR doesn't want to leave CAA football either, but things are changing so rapidly it's hard to project what the CAA (football) will look like in 3 years.

CAA:
James Madison
Delaware
Towson
Old Dominion
Georgia State
Charlotte
William & Mary
Liberty

A-10:
Richmond
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Maine
Stony Brook
Albany
Fordham

[heath]

An Atlantic-10 conference that includes football is more likely in 2013, though I don't see Temple dropping down. UR doesn't want to leave CAA football either, but things are changing so rapidly it's hard to project what the CAA (football) will look like in 3 years.How about this for the CAA in 3 years. A Northern division of Delaware,Towson, Maine, UNH and URI. A Commonwealth division with UR,JMU,W&M,Liberty,and ODU.

[superman7515]

FCS to FBS membership:
Villanova - won't leave BE basketball to play non-BCS FBS football with mid-major basketball status
Delaware - not enough institutional support, still no progress on stadium upgrade, poor basketball product
JMU - Haven't had anything going on in basketball lately either, but probably has FBS aspirations as well as people feel UD does (possible 1)
UMass - Did a study within the last 4-5 years and word on here is they never released the findings but the last time they did they said it wasn't cost effective
ODU - Hasn't played a game that counted for anything yet (possible 2)
App State - Hard to be a league of 3, but the fan support is there, just need the stadium upgrade... (possible 3)

Current FBS converts:
Army - Enjoys Independent status, not gonna happen
Navy - See Army
Temple - Depends on if the new conference has better basketball than the A10, b-ball matters in Philly, not football (possible 4)
Duke - BWAHAHAHAHA
UConn - See Duke
Syracuse - See UConn about Duke's answer

Basketball and other non-football affiliates:
Richmond - That stadium isn't getting any bigger
VCU - This basketball league is shaping up worse than the current CAA
St Joes - Why bother, no one else is joining
Drexel - Wait, you want us in the same league as Temple? Screw that
Hofstra - Not enough basketball support in this new league, most of the Olympic sports aren't that good either, and where is lacrosse?

Just spitballin' here.

[Mntneer]

No current FBS school is ever going to leave their conference to join a new league formed largely by a mass exodus from FCS.

[URMite]

Are your FBS teams football only? or are Duke, UConn, and Syracuse leaving their current basketball conference because this FBS CAA football conference is so appealing they can't resist?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Are your FBS teams football only? or are Duke, UConn, and Syracuse leaving their current basketball conference because this FBS CAA football conference is so appealing they can't resist?

My thinking was along the lines of this: By bringing a bunch of schools together that are good in basketball, but poor in their conference in football (Temple, Syracuse, and Duke) and combining them with FCS teams that are also strong in basketball, and have solid football fan bases that would like to move up (Villanova, UMass, ODU) you could have a new basketball conference just as strong as the ones Duke or Syrwcuse would be leaving, but have it be more palatable for football as well. Richmond was listed as a non-football member because I don't see UR looking to make the jump so soon after buying a nice, but tiny, stadium, but their basketball program would be a nice addition. Likewise St. Joe's, Hofstra, VCU, and Drexel have fairly strong basketball programs, no football, and already have relationships with some of the proposed schools.

[panama]

No way anyone leaves the brand names that are ACC and Big East. Even in a 2 and 10 season those uniform conference patches mean something. Any new east coast league is going to made up of SoCon and CAA move ups and Sun Belt and possibly C-USA cast-offs. No matter what Duke still plays in a BCS confence. Give that up? And I quote "Bwahahahaha."

[BlueHenSinfonian]

No way anyone leaves the brand names that are ACC and Big East. Even in a 2 and 10 season those uniform conference patches mean something. Any new east coast league is going to made up of SoCon and CAA move ups and Sun Belt and possibly C-USA cast-offs. No matter what Duke still plays in a BCS confence. Give that up? And I quote "Bwahahahaha."

BCS only means anything for football, and Duke isn't ever going to end up in one of the four big bowls at the rate they're going. The big money and prestige for Duke, Syracuse, and Temple athletics is all basketball, where BCS doesn't mean a thing.

I suppose they could think that it's better to be the punching bag in a higher ranked conference for football, but I don't get it.

[BearsCountry]

BCS only means anything for football, and Duke isn't ever going to end up in one of the four big bowls at the rate they're going. The big money and prestige for Duke, Syracuse, and Temple athletics is all basketball, where BCS doesn't mean a thing.

I suppose they could think that it's better to be the punching bag in a higher ranked conference for football, but I don't get it.

BS on that. That BCS label means alot in all sports.

[DFW HOYA]

BCS only means anything for football, and Duke isn't ever going to end up in one of the four big bowls at the rate they're going.

In fact, Duke is an improving team that could one day be a Boston College-type team--not a Top 10 program but capable of a run. All they need is one ride to the ACC divisional title game and a BCS berth is there for the taking. If you don't think a small school can do it, ask Wake Forest.

[Jackman]

UMass - Did a study within the last 4-5 years and word on here is they never released the findings but the last time they did they said it wasn't cost effective

The #1 issue in all the studies is a lack of any acceptable conference affiliation (other than the Big East, which isn't happening).

[BlueHenSinfonian]

An Atlantic-10 conference that includes football is more likely in 2013, though I don't see Temple dropping down. UR doesn't want to leave CAA football either, but things are changing so rapidly it's hard to project what the CAA (football) will look like in 3 years.

The problem with A-10 Football is that it would either involve adding a bunch of football only schools, or having a conference with wildly different levels of play. Right now there is a world of difference between Duquesne, LaSalle and Dayton, and Umass, Richmond, and Temple. I wouldn't mind seeing a return of A-10 football, but I don't see the point with the current conference makeup.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

CAA:
James Madison
Delaware
Towson
Old Dominion
Georgia State
Charlotte
William & Mary
Liberty

A-10:
Richmond
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Maine
Stony Brook
Albany
Fordham

Charlotte is already a member of the A-10 in all sports...why would they join the CAA if football was available to them in the A-10?

[UAalum72]

The problem with A-10 Football is that it would either involve adding a bunch of football only schools, or having a conference with wildly different levels of play. Right now there is a world of difference between Duquesne, LaSalle and Dayton, and Umass, Richmond, and Temple. I wouldn't mind seeing a return of A-10 football, but I don't see the point with the current conference makeup.
Especially LaSalle (dropped football after 2007)

[DFW HOYA]

The problem with A-10 Football is that it would either involve adding a bunch of football only schools, or having a conference with wildly different levels of play. Right now there is a world of difference between Duquesne, LaSalle and Dayton, and Umass, Richmond, and Temple. I wouldn't mind seeing a return of A-10 football, but I don't see the point with the current conference makeup.

LaSalle doesn't play anymore, but under the right leadership, funding, and direction, Duquesne and Dayton could surprise their A-10 brethren.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

LaSalle doesn't play anymore, but under the right leadership, funding, and direction, Duquesne and Dayton could surprise their A-10 brethren.

Eh, well, I guess it shows how far LaSalle is off the radar that I hadn't even noticed they didn't field a team anymore... But as for what you say about Duquesne and Dayton, it's possible, but by the same measure, Georgetown could to, what is your honest assessment of the chances?

I'd like to see Delaware join A-10 for all sports under such a plan (provided enough other teams convert to make the football worth a darn) but Delaware basketball hasn't been worth much ever since we let Mike Brey leave. Why UD with its huge stacks of money can't find a decent men's basketball coach is beyond me...

[DFW HOYA]

Eh, well, I guess it shows how far LaSalle is off the radar that I hadn't even noticed they didn't field a team anymore... But as for what you say about Duquesne and Dayton, it's possible, but by the same measure, Georgetown could to, what is your honest assessment of the chances?

Georgetown fights through numerous institutional financial hardships (read=no money) that do not lend itself to adding scholarships, the result of which will really impact the program if the rest of the Patriot League moves to (at or about) 60 scholarships and Georgetown stays at, well, none.

A search of PL threads on this board will go into this subject in signififcant detail.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Georgetown fights through numerous institutional financial hardships (read=no money) that do not lend itself to adding scholarships, the result of which will really impact the program if the rest of the Patriot League moves to (at or about) 60 scholarships and Georgetown stays at, well, none.

A search of PL threads on this board will go into this subject in signififcant detail.

I've read many of the threads, but I can't wrap my head around why Georgetown has no money. It's a prestigious school with a ton of very wealthy and famous alumni (including plenty of old money) situated in the middle of one of the most affluent cities in the US. If Georgetown doesn't have funding, the blame rests fully on the shoulders of an inept alumni relations department and lack of fundraising strategy. Apparently Georgetown recently eclipsed the 1 billion mark in endowment, congrats, but Delaware has been there for years. Georgetown should be rivaling most of the Ivies in endowment money, but even given the relatively smaller cash pool compared to the Ancient 8, with half the student body of other schools on the $1 billion+ list, Georgetown should have plenty of extra money to throw around.

[MacThor]

The problem with A-10 Football is that it would either involve adding a bunch of football only schools, or having a conference with wildly different levels of play. Right now there is a world of difference between Duquesne, LaSalle and Dayton, and Umass, Richmond, and Temple. I wouldn't mind seeing a return of A-10 football, but I don't see the point with the current conference makeup.

That's why I said 2013. Charlotte, Dayton, Duquesne, Fordham, UMass, Rhode Island, Richmond...it's a start.

[nwFL Griz]

This idea is made by someone who clearly does not understand the FBS subdivision and the dynamics involved. Why, on gods green earth, would any program leave a BCS conference to go to a start-up?

Also, the Duke suggestion shows a lack of understanding about tobacco road and how the Carolina schools live and die with each other.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The problem with A-10 Football is that it would either involve adding a bunch of football only schools, or having a conference with wildly different levels of play. Right now there is a world of difference between Duquesne, LaSalle and Dayton, and Umass, Richmond, and Temple. I wouldn't mind seeing a return of A-10 football, but I don't see the point with the current conference makeup.

The problem with A-10 football is that it was designed with basketball in mind - a sprawled, large-distance conference which works for basketball games (tiny travel parties, 10-12 men's and 10-12 women's scholarships, both can travel together to cut costs) but not football (63 men's scholarships, you need to charter flights if the games are far enough apart, bands, coaches, etc.) Basketball thrives through top matchups - wherever they might be - and TV. Football thrives through proximity. (That's one of many reasons why the latest ideas of BCS superconferences are so idiotic, but I digress.)

If you have an A-10 football conference, you would have the foundation of some of the old Yankee Conference (UMass, URI), a former national champion (Richmond), and historic FB programs (Fordham, Duquesne, Dayton). But the whole doesn't seem the sum of all its parts. UMass and URI suffered without UConn, and would further suffer without UNH and Maine. Would Duquesne give up a pretty good deal in the NEC with local games vs. RMU and St. Francis in order to play Dayton and Fordham? Is Dayton willing to change their non-scholarship setup to compete with Richmond and the old Yankee Conference foes? And what, exactly, does Fordham gain?

Never mind that a new A-10 conference wouldn't have an autobid for 5 years, UMass won't leave the CAA without a fight, Richmond's biggest rival will be in the CAA for now and the forseeable future, and the benefits are not at all clear to the other schools involved. When you add Charlotte to the mix - a team with no regional rivals at all - you've now added quite a bit to the overall costs of this conference, too. Duquesne, Fordham, UMass and URI now will have to charter a flight to NC every couple of years. Do they really want to to that? For a basketball game? That's one thing. For a football team? That's a lot more money.

[DFW HOYA]

I've read many of the threads, but I can't wrap my head around why Georgetown has no money. It's a prestigious school with a ton of very wealthy and famous alumni (including plenty of old money) situated in the middle of one of the most affluent cities in the US. If Georgetown doesn't have funding, the blame rests fully on the shoulders of an inept alumni relations department and lack of fundraising strategy. Apparently Georgetown recently eclipsed the 1 billion mark in endowment, congrats, but Delaware has been there for years. Georgetown should be rivaling most of the Ivies in endowment money, but even given the relatively smaller cash pool compared to the Ancient 8, with half the student body of other schools on the $1 billion+ list, Georgetown should have plenty of extra money to throw around.

Georgetown got a very late start to the fundraising game (as late as 1976 its endowment was $14 million) and while some of its alumni are notable they are by no means "old money". This is an issue across Catholic colleges--Villanova, for example, has an endowment of only $265 million. Georgetown is also burdened by excessive long term debt which affects net cash flow.

In 1978, Georgetown made the decision to offer full need financial aid to any qualified student. That elevated the school from a regional college to a national university within a decade, but it comes at a steep price. $80 million a year is devoted to financial aid, and even that number is not enough. As endowment income helps underwrite this number, it leaves no significant money for athletics projects which have been on hold, some for decades. 27 of 29Georgetown teams are underfunded, and the two that do have full funding lack facilities in a big way. Basketball, for example, has no practice or training facility and competes for gym time with the other sports. It tends to spend what it brings in, so it's not a cash cow as it may be at other schools.

As it relates to football, it's a tough sell to make the case for 63 scholarships when there are so many pressing issues elsewhere, not to mention a football facility that still sits unfinished in a construction zone for five years now.

[MacThor]

When you add Charlotte to the mix - a team with no regional rivals at all - you've now added quite a bit to the overall costs of this conference, too. Duquesne, Fordham, UMass and URI now will have to charter a flight to NC every couple of years. Do they really want to to that? For a basketball game? That's one thing. For a football team? That's a lot more money.

Good post. One minor nit though; Charlotte's a hub -- I doubt adding a trip to NC will really increase costs for UMass/URI since they'd be subtracting bi-annual trips to Harrisonburg and/or Williamsburg. Besides, the status quo has them going to GA State every other year.

[JMUNJ08]

Georgetown got a very late start to the fundraising game (as late as 1976 its endowment was $14 million) and while some of its alumni are notable they are by no means "old money". This is an issue across Catholic colleges--Villanova, for example, has an endowment of only $265 million. Georgetown is also burdened by excessive long term debt which affects net cash flow.

In 1978, Georgetown made the decision to offer full need financial aid to any qualified student. That elevated the school from a regional college to a national university within a decade, but it comes at a steep price. $80 million a year is devoted to financial aid, and even that number is not enough. As endowment income helps underwrite this number, it leaves no significant money for athletics projects which have been on hold, some for decades. 27 of 29Georgetown teams are underfunded, and the two that do have full funding lack facilities in a big way. Basketball, for example, has no practice or training facility and competes for gym time with the other sports. It tends to spend what it brings in, so it's not a cash cow as it may be at other schools.

As it relates to football, it's a tough sell to make the case for 63 scholarships when there are so many pressing issues elsewhere, not to mention a football facility that still sits unfinished in a construction zone for five years now.

Thanks for the insight DFW! Sad that things aren't in better shape for the Hoyas as I'm sure the BE would add you for FB with Nova if the money/facilities were even remotely in place/possible...

[Jackman]

The problem with A-10 football is that it was designed with basketball in mind - a sprawled, large-distance conference which works for basketball games (tiny travel parties, 10-12 men's and 10-12 women's scholarships, both can travel together to cut costs) but not football (63 men's scholarships, you need to charter flights if the games are far enough apart, bands, coaches, etc.) Basketball thrives through top matchups - wherever they might be - and TV. Football thrives through proximity. (That's one of many reasons why the latest ideas of BCS superconferences are so idiotic, but I digress.)

I wouldn't say football "thrives" through proximity. That's another bunker-down, cost containment strategy. When you look at the most successful football conferences, they generally have large geographic footprints. The Pac-10 is enormous. The ACC and Big East both stretch the entire East Coast. The Big Ten stretches about the same distance as New York to Miami. The SEC is the only somewhat small one. The small footprint conferences are the MAC and Sun Belt (not counting Denver). They're terrible.

Then look at FCS. The major conferences are the CAA, which stretches from upstate Maine to Virginia (and soon Atlanta), the MVC stretching from North Dakota to eastern Ohio, and the Big Sky stretching from Washington to Arizona (just like the Pac-10). Once again, the only exception is a southeastern conference, the SoCon.

At the FBS level, clearly the television revenue more than offsets travel costs. That isn't anywhere near the case at the FCS level, but if you were to split the CAA in half, neither side would get as good a TV deal as they have now, where they're at least paid something (a very small amount) for their football games instead of paying the network to produce and air them. You also have to consider what you would have to pay to get 3 hours of equivalent advertising for your university if you didn't have a football game on a network with a large geographic footprint. And the better the quality of football is, the more people are going to watch it as opposed to a 3 hour infomercial. I think it's short-sighted to just subtract travel costs from ticket sales and determine what makes a good conference from that. TV, while not a huge source of revenue at this level, is still very important for extracting the most value out of maintaining these expensive football operations. And a certain amount of geographic spread is necessary both to attract TV and to gather enough institutions who can maintain a high level of play that will interest viewers. If nobody is watching, then yeah, sure, play the Division II team next door. If nobody is watching then all you're going to want to do is cut costs.

[GaSouthern]

I could much easier see ECU, Marshall, Ga State, Ga Southern, App, ODU, Del, and a few others coming together but it is an extreme pipe dream at the moment.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I wouldn't say football "thrives" through proximity. That's another bunker-down, cost containment strategy. When you look at the most successful football conferences, they generally have large geographic footprints. The Pac-10 is enormous. The ACC and Big East both stretch the entire East Coast. The Big Ten stretches about the same distance as New York to Miami. The SEC is the only somewhat small one. The small footprint conferences are the MAC and Sun Belt (not counting Denver). They're terrible.

The Pac-10 has: Stanford, USC, UCLA, and Cal. All fairly close together and huge rivals.

Arizona/Arizona State. Close together. Huge rivals.

Oregon/Oregon State. Close together. Huge rivals.

Washington/Washington State. Close together. Huge rivals.

The SEC is "somewhat close together" - and, you guessed it, it's one of the most powerful, highest-rated, BCS conferences. Proximity.

The Big XII - Texas, A&M, Oklahoma, Texas Tech. Proximity.

Even the core of the Big Ten is very close together - Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Iowa, Illinois. They've built their conference on rivals in great proximity.

You make some good points, but when you say "The Pac Ten is a sprawled-out conference", you're seeing the forest, not the trees. Proximity makes the best rivalries, especially in football, and the fact that UW is very far away from USC doesn't change that.

[WileECoyote06]

lol @ Duke leaving for an FBS start up conference. The SEC can't even convince Duke to join them from the ACC. You are hilarious. . .

[panama]

Great thread.

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

FBS CAA:
James Madison
Delaware
Georgia Southern
Old Dominion
Georgia State
Charlotte
Appalachian State
Liberty
VCU (non-football)
George Mason (non-football)
Drexel (non-football)
UNC Wilmington (non-football)

FCS A-10 (or America East?):
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Maine
Stony Brook
Albany
Fordham
Towson

FCS SoCon:
Richmond (football-only)
William & Mary
Furman
Wofford
Samford
The Citadel
Western Carolina
Chattanooga
Elon

Fixed it for ya

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Appfan -

Not a bad set of ideas, but your proposed CAA leaves Delaware as the lone northern team in a very heavily south-biased conference (yes technically Delaware is a border state, but most Delawareans 'north of the canal' identify more with PA and NJ than with the southern states). It also takes Delaware away from what will be its biggest rival once Nova leaves - UMass (I guess there used to be a UNH rivalry but that seems to have subsided).

On the positive side, grouping UD with ODU, App State, and GaSou does put some schools with big attendance draws and fan/insitutional support together, the level of football play would be high, and the budding rivalry with JMU could further develop. I'm just not sure I see UD's AD signing off on a conference move that means we will be going to NC or GA for a lot of games.

[Skjellyfetti]

App State - Hard to be a league of 3, but the fan support is there, just need the stadium upgrade... (possible 3)


What? xchinscratchx

Our stadium is FBS ready.

[superman7515]

You're already seating more than you have capacity for. You think you won't need additional seating if you went FBS and start bringing in schools like UNC, NC State, South Carolina (or any SEC team for that matter)??

[Mntneer]

You're already seating more than you have capacity for. You think you won't need additional seating if you went FBS and start bringing in schools like UNC, NC State, South Carolina (or any SEC team for that matter)??

We might need more seats, but not to accommodate any of those schools, as they will not be traveling to Boone regardless of the level of football we play.

[Maroon&White]

You make some good points, but when you say "The Pac Ten is a sprawled-out conference", you're seeing the forest, not the trees. Proximity makes the best rivalries, especially in football, and the fact that UW is very far away from USC doesn't change that.

How is that any different than basketball?

[superman7515]

We might need more seats, but not to accommodate any of those schools, as they will not be traveling to Boone regardless of the level of football we play.

Why not? If UTSA can get Pac 10, Big 12, ACC, etc schools to agree to come play there before they ever take a snap, why couldn't an FBS App St?