Morning Call's Keith Groller: PL Needs Scholarships

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://blogs.mcall.com/groller/2010/09/notice-the-lack-of-patriot-league-football-teams-in-the-top-25.html


As you know by now, the Patriot League is supposed to decide whether or not it will allow its member schools to give scholarships in December.

If the first month of this season should nudge the school presidents in any direction about which way to go, it's clear that if they want their programs to compete at the highest level possible, they have to allow scholarships and then come up with a sound plan on how to implement them.

xcoolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Not sure what he's adding to the conversation, but it's nice he's doing it publicly. Is Groller just coming out with this opinion now? Maybe he can come up with a source of funding, too.

[DFW HOYA]

http://blogs.mcall.com/groller/2010/09/notice-the-lack-of-patriot-league-football-teams-in-the-top-25.html

The view from the Valley:
"Lehigh or Lafayette in first place? Ahhh, all is well...."
"Georgetown in first place? Quick, scholarships now!"

[Bogus Megapardus]

The view from the Valley:
"Lehigh or Lafayette in first place? Ahhh, all is well...."
"Georgetown in first place? Quick, scholarships now!"

That is a correct observation.

[DFW HOYA]

That is a correct observation.

In a bizarre way, yes. The PL has been on a noticeable slide for the past 5-6 years but the PL press corps (read=Groller, Reinhard, and LoRe) paid little attention to the gap while all was well in the Valley. Now, a school that finished 0-11 in 2009 is somehow leading the PL, in the most threadbare facilities in Division I, has writers tossing up the scholarship argument as a solution without any cogent explanation of how teams outside Fordham can afford it.

If Georgetown can somehow defeat the Red Raiders Saturday, the threat level really moves up.

[Go...gate]

In a bizarre way, yes. The PL has been on a noticeable slide for the past 5-6 years but the PL press corps (read=Groller, Reinhard, and LoRe) paid little attention to the gap while all was well in the Valley. Now, a school that finished 0-11 in 2009 is somehow leading the PL, in the most threadbare facilities in Division I, has writers tossing up the scholarship argument as a solution without any cogent explanation of how teams outside Fordham can afford it.

If Georgetown can somehow defeat the Red Raiders Saturday, the threat level really moves up.

Don't sell Georgetown short. I recall another team that went from 0-11 in one year to the conference's championship game the next and undefeated conference championship the third year. That team: Colgate, 1995-96-97. It can happen and you GU guys have to believe that - AFTER this week.

[Go...gate]

"....if you want to just have a football team for the sake of having a football team and be like the Ivy League and just play amongst yourselves and not worry about competing on a national level -- then, by all means -- keep going with this flawed, financial-aid model.

However, if you want to compete against the best and be among the best -- as Lehigh once thought it was in the late 1990s and the early part of this decade -- and if you want to put more than 8,000 people in Goodman Stadium more often than just when Lafayette visits every two Novembers, then you have to go the scholarship route."

Well said. xnodxxnonoxxsmashxxcoachx

[BlueHenSinfonian]

In a bizarre way, yes. The PL has been on a noticeable slide for the past 5-6 years but the PL press corps (read=Groller, Reinhard, and LoRe) paid little attention to the gap while all was well in the Valley. Now, a school that finished 0-11 in 2009 is somehow leading the PL, in the most threadbare facilities in Division I, has writers tossing up the scholarship argument as a solution without any cogent explanation of how teams outside Fordham can afford it.

If Georgetown can somehow defeat the Red Raiders Saturday, the threat level really moves up.

I've never paid much attention to Georgetown, since I can't ever recall seeing the Hoyas play, but your comment made me to to the guhoyas website to see the stadium... Not only is it unimaginatively named 'multi sport field' but they don't even bother to put a picture of it on the website... Doing a GIS search for hoya stadium brings up a lot of boxing images and a Bengals training facility in Kentucky. I did finally find a couple small shots, but wow, I'd say for a school with the history and name recognition of Georgetown, it's about time to upgrade the digs.

[DFW HOYA]

I've never paid much attention to Georgetown, since I can't ever recall seeing the Hoyas play, but your comment made me to to the guhoyas website to see the stadium... Not only is it unimaginatively named 'multi sport field' but they don't even bother to put a picture of it on the website... Doing a GIS search for hoya stadium brings up a lot of boxing images and a Bengals training facility in Kentucky. I did finally find a couple small shots, but wow, I'd say for a school with the history and name recognition of Georgetown, it's about time to upgrade the digs.

That is the upgrade. "Multi-Sport Field" is a placeholder name because, after nearly 12 years, a donor has not stepped forward to complete the fundraising to actually build out the plans. The previous field is, well, unplayable.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5aDKqsf1RVE/SpSMgdAzrwI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/yTpXuof1UQU/s400/msf5.jpg

So, when/if the PL starts adding scholarships and Georgetown has none, it's all because of money, or a lack thereof. The MSF is just a more visible example of the situation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In a bizarre way, yes. The PL has been on a noticeable slide for the past 5-6 years but the PL press corps (read=Groller, Reinhard, and LoRe) paid little attention to the gap while all was well in the Valley. Now, a school that finished 0-11 in 2009 is somehow leading the PL, in the most threadbare facilities in Division I, has writers tossing up the scholarship argument as a solution without any cogent explanation of how teams outside Fordham can afford it.

If Georgetown can somehow defeat the Red Raiders Saturday, the threat level really moves up.

I'd say that's not a totally fair observation. The slide has not been very noticable since the PL has had a bunch of very good players (QB Brad Maurer, QB John Skelton, QB Dominic Randolph, RB Jordan Scott) that have masked the slide to some degree. Now that those players are gone, the gap is a lot more visible.

I know the LV writers haven't always been the biggest advocates for scholarships publicly, but as any PL observers, they are quite aware of the issue under the surface. Groller in particular has mentioned it in his blog postings before.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I would love to see Georgetown grad Bill Clinton '68 donate the money to complete MSF, just so everyone can now call it "BubbaTurf."

Or maybe the "cigar box." That would work, too.

[carney2]

I like Groller, but he has editors and readers to appease so he takes the "to be competitive" approach to the scholarship issue, while those of us that have been following this know that argument will not throw even a feather's worth of weight onto the decision making scales.

My sittin'-at-home,scribbled-on-the-back-of-an-envelope sample ballot still says 3 for, 2 against, 2 who knows, and 3 abstentions. Any late breaking news to change this?

[Bogus Megapardus]

What if the Patriot decides to expand before any scholarship vote? Let's say a potential new member agrees to join the Patriot but only if that new member gets to cast a ballot in the scholarship vote. If expansion is contingent on scholarships, this might be a way for the Lafayette/Bucknell/Holy Cross presidents to save face. They could go back to their respective faculties and boards of trustees and blame it on the new guy, knowing full well beforehand that the new guy would vote for scholarships.

[carney2]

What if the Patriot decides to expand before any scholarship vote? Let's say a potential new member agrees to join the Patriot but only if that new member gets to cast a ballot in the scholarship vote. If expansion is contingent on scholarships, this might be a way for the Lafayette/Bucknell/Holy Cross presidents to save face. They could go back to their respective faculties and boards of trustees and blame it on the new guy, knowing full well beforehand that the new guy would vote for scholarships.

Creative thought, but the Patriot League hasn't expanded since, what, the Filmore administration, and now they're are going to find, approve and give full voting rights to...exactly who?!...in less than 3 months. Methinx you had one too many at the A&B on Saturday, Bogie. Oh yeah, and that "who?" has to be pro-scholarship for your scenario to work.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What if the Patriot decides to expand before any scholarship vote? Let's say a potential new member agrees to join the Patriot but only if that new member gets to cast a ballot in the scholarship vote. If expansion is contingent on scholarships, this might be a way for the Lafayette/Bucknell/Holy Cross presidents to save face. They could go back to their respective faculties and boards of trustees and blame it on the new guy, knowing full well beforehand that the new guy would vote for scholarships.


Creative thought, but the Patriot League hasn't expanded since, what, the Filmore administration, and now they're are going to find, approve and give full voting rights to...exactly who?!...in less than 3 months. Methinx you had one too many at the A&B on Saturday, Bogie. Oh yeah, and that "who?" has to be pro-scholarship for your scenario to work.

Let's say Maine, who has no interest in playing Georgia State in 2012, is looking to leave the CAA.

They come to the Patriot League. They say, "We are willing to think about PL membership - maybe even in all sports - and we're willing to use some type of AI for our out-of-state students. However, this won't work for us unless we have scholarships, too. We can't get football kids from Florida to come to sub-freezing temperatures without them."

The Patriot League office says, "Suuuure, we'll have scholarships in football by then. There's a vote on them this December."

Then (for example) Holy Cross pipes up and says, "But scholarships are wrong! Well, in men's basketball, hockey and lacrosse they're not. But in football? Yes!!! So we'll deny Maine potential membership, because we don't want scholarships!"

Maine then says, "You're not offering scholarships? Maybe you are? Well, we know the NEC does - to some degree - and Rhode Island, a sort-of Yankee Conference rival, is going to be there. We'll go there, then, and maybe we'll push to get the NEC up to 63. Oh yeah, and they have an autobid, too, so that's no longer important."

Holy Cross then says: "Is Davidson available for expansion?"

Davidson replies in an email: "We've been reading AGS, too. Are you guys going to be scholarship, or not? The PFL allows us to save boatloads on football since we don't have to pay a lot, we still get homecoming, and we can then spend our money on getting a scholarship for Dell Curry's son to star on our basketball team. We have no interest in football scholarships."

Moral of the story: Expansion candidates can't decide to expand into the PL without some firm commitment on scholarships. One way or another. But this current purgatory serves nobody. It's hard to overstate how ill prepared the PL is for this current shakeup top to bottom in Division I sports.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Creative thought, but the Patriot League hasn't expanded since, what, the Filmore administration, and now they're are going to find, approve and give full voting rights to...exactly who?!...in less than 3 months. Methinx you had one too many at the A&B on Saturday, Bogie. Oh yeah, and that "who?" has to be pro-scholarship for your scenario to work.

That was the only "new" twist to this whole thing that my feeble mind could conjure, carney. The "who" would be a very highly endowed, high-upside DIII team that currently plays without scholarships (pick one from the two or three that we've already speculated about).

Then the Patriot could (a) admit currently non-scholarship Gettysburg-Hopkins Polytechnic Institute, (b) vote in favor of football scholarships and (c) delay the implementation of scholarships for 5-8 years (or whatever) until the new team gets full Division I status, because it wouldn't be "fair" otherwise.

This is how the Patriot can have its cake and eat it too (though I've still never been able to completely figure out that metaphor).

[401ks]

I'm sorry, but every time I saw the title of this thread I thought:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005K3O5.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

:o

[RichH2]

Nice to see some newspaper opinion on issue but nothing changes. Why frustrate our selves with endless carping and speculation? No magic wand handy so we might as well wait for December and endure this year. heck it may be one of the best PL races in a while. National scene is not an option for us this yr for sure. Only Gate as of now could compete.

[ngineer]

I am always bemused by the PFL 'saving money' by not having scholarships, but flying from one end of the country to the other to play each other?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Scholarship vote-wise, I seem to recall that Bucknell's new president won't be inaugurated until sometime later this fall, and that he hasn't formally met with the BOT yet. Just something to keep in mind.

[danefan]

I am always bemused by the PFL 'saving money' by not having scholarships, but flying from one end of the country to the other to play each other?

2 reasons:
1. No Title IX balancing for travel expenses
2. They fly commercial flights with limited travel rosters.

The PFL Commish was quoted in an article last year I think stating that the average travel budget for PFL teams was somewhere around $200,000 a year. That's the equivalent of what? Maybe 2 scholarships per year with Title IX balancing at a PL school?

[Go...gate]

Creative thought, but the Patriot League hasn't expanded since, what, the Filmore administration, and now they're are going to find, approve and give full voting rights to...exactly who?!...in less than 3 months. Methinx you had one too many at the A&B on Saturday, Bogie. Oh yeah, and that "who?" has to be pro-scholarship for your scenario to work.

The Shepherd's Pie and Lamb Stew are still very good.....

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Shepherd's Pie and Lamb Stew are still very good.....

I had the Shepherd's Pie and Dogfish 60 Minute IPA draft. Perhaps a few too many calories there. The line for Thomas Sweet was out the door and down the sidewalk, so at least I spared myself that indulgence.

[DFW HOYA]

It would be asking too much for the PL to think beyond the current seven: say, URI, Maine, Davidson, VMI, and The Citadel (some may remember their head coach), set up a Mason and a Dixon division, and establish a core of four military, four liberal arts and four comprehensive universities. Naah.....

[401ks]

2 reasons:
1. No Title IX balancing for travel expenses
2. They fly commercial flights with limited travel rosters.

The PFL Commish was quoted in an article last year I think stating that the average travel budget for PFL teams was somewhere around $200,000 a year. That's the equivalent of what? Maybe 2 scholarships per year with Title IX balancing at a PL school?

+1

In addition...

It is my understanding that the PFL teams "pool" their travel money and the league doles out the travel expenses. That means there is no "average" travel budget. Each program pays the same amount so that teams like San Diego don't get shafted in the travel expense department, and each team knows exactly what its travel expenses are each year well before the season begins.

The Butler team flew out to San Diego this past weekend via Southwest Airlines. All airfare was paid for by the PFL out of the travel expense pool.

[Ken_Z]

Scholarship vote-wise, I seem to recall that Bucknell's new president won't be inaugurated until sometime later this fall, and that he hasn't formally met with the BOT yet. Just something to keep in mind.

inauguration ceremony on Nov 14, but he is the President now

trustees retreat this past weekend, which i am confident he particpated in

he loves college football


My sittin'-at-home,scribbled-on-the-back-of-an-envelope sample ballot still says 3 for, 2 against, 2 who knows, and 3 abstentions. Any late breaking news to change this?

nothing definitive, but word i heard was the reading of the tea leaves says scholarships will likely be approved.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Thanks for the clarification, Ken_Z. Is it too much to hope that there could have been a hidden mole at that trustees' retreat? If Bucknell is a "yes," Lafayette really has no choice.

[Ken_Z]

Is it too much to hope that there could have been a hidden mole at that trustees' retreat?

no mole, but someone that has access to people and information that makes their educated guess more valuable than mine.

[Go...gate]

I had the Shepherd's Pie and Dogfish 60 Minute IPA draft. Perhaps a few too many calories there. The line for Thomas Sweet was out the door and down the sidewalk, so at least I spared myself that indulgence.

A little comfort food is good for the soul once in a while.

[Go...gate]

inauguration ceremony on Nov 14, but he is the President now

trustees retreat this past weekend, which i am confident he particpated in

he loves college football



nothing definitive, but word i heard was the reading of the tea leaves says scholarships will likely be approved.

You mean by Bucknell or by the league in general?

[Go...gate]

It would be asking too much for the PL to think beyond the current seven: say, URI, Maine, Davidson, VMI, and The Citadel (some may remember their head coach), set up a Mason and a Dixon division, and establish a core of four military, four liberal arts and four comprehensive universities. Naah.....

It is not so far-fetched. I always thought VMI and The Citadel should have been considered for the PL; and the old Yankee Conference schools who don't want to be in the CAA or Big East would be natural opponents. Colgate already plays UNH and UVM in Basketball and played them both in hockey for decades. Davidson should have been a good fit, but....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://articles.mcall.com/2010-09-29/sports/mc-patriot-league-football-20100929_1_director-carolyn-schlie-femovich-mountain-hawks-patriot-league


The pro-scholarship faction hoped that these lopsided losses against top-notch foes might nudge the school presidents in their direction.

However, Patriot League Executive Director Carolyn Schlie Femovich said Wednesday that she doubts that the school presidents who will make the decision were persuaded in either direction by what has transpired on the scoreboard so far.

"The issues go much deeper than what is happening in that particular season and who's winning and who's losing," she said. "This decision has broad implications for each campus and the issues that are going to determine that decision remain the same."

And those issues are primarily financially-based and have lots of layers to them.

It's hard to believe when you hear some of the tuition payments parents are making these days for their kids, but the financial downturn has also impacted colleges, including the fine institutions of the Patriot League.

"In this financial climate, these schools are facing multiple challenges," Femovich said. "The costs of running an athletic program continue to rise."

Just when you think things tilt towards scholarships......

[Bogus Megapardus]

. . . . and on the Patriot League web site, this little "reminder" within the announcement that the Bucknell-Cornell game will be televised on CBS College Sports:

"The Patriot League continually demonstrates that student-athletes can excel at both academics and athletics without sacrificing its high standards. The Patriot League's athletic success is achieved while its member institutions remain committed to its founding principle of admitting and graduating student-athletes that are academically representative of their class. Participation in athletics at Patriot League institutions is viewed as an important component of a well-rounded education."

Are they ramping up for a non-announcement?

[carney2]

nothing definitive, but word i heard was the reading of the tea leaves says scholarships will likely be approved.

As much as it pains me to say this, KenZ has been a "usually reliable source" for all things Buffalonian. Uh oh, wait, I'll be right back...

The warning system on my Ouija board just went off. The message says that a "yes" vote on scholarships from Buffalo puts us over the top and the smart money is now on play-for-pay in the Patsy League.

[ngineer]

I will be 'pleasantly surprised' if the scholarships go through. The comments made in today's Groller column in the Morning Call seemed to indicate that being able to abide by Title IX and financial commitments would be the driving force without regard to the the blowouts the PL has been handed by the scholarship schools. I'm not so optimistic until I see some real sign.

[TheValleyRaider]

I still maintain they'll approve without a mandate. This will no doubt push issues of competition further down the line, but the League allowed every other sport to go the same way. Eventually, all parties got on board. Unless one of the No votes comes to the meeting and says "If you approve scholarships, we're out," then you'll see approval

If anything, Groller's article here is an attempt by PL higher-ups to cover the anti-scholarship viewpoint, especially if the winds are blowing away from that direction xtwocentsx

[DFW HOYA]

I still maintain they'll approve without a mandate. This will no doubt push issues of competition further down the line, but the League allowed every other sport to go the same way. Eventually, all parties got on board. Unless one of the No votes comes to the meeting and says "If you approve scholarships, we're out," then you'll see approval

All parties? If you've got the means to explain how Georgetown can "get on board" with its ongoing funding issues, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, Georgetown runs the risk of being asked to get out of the conference.

[ngineer]

All parties? If you've got the means to explain how Georgetown can "get on board" with its ongoing funding issues, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, Georgetown runs the risk of being asked to get out of the conference.

Yes, if schollies are approved and it's "every man for himself" up to 60, there will be the ol' "arms race" mantra with the "rich getting richer and poor getting poorer" cliche. But would certainly put pressure on Hoyas to either try and ramp up, look elsewhere,or drop the sport.

[TheValleyRaider]

All parties? If you've got the means to explain how Georgetown can "get on board" with its ongoing funding issues, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, Georgetown runs the risk of being asked to get out of the conference.

I'm not suggesting Georgetown is about to jump on the scholarship bandwagon themselves. I was only referring to the past scholarship vote where not everyone immediately added them, but only down the line when both philosophical and financial considerations came into play. We did it 10 years ago, I see no reason why it suddenly couldn't happen this time

I'm certainly aware of Georgtwon's financial issues, or at least as much as you've elaborated on AGS, and hardly expect them to add scholarships in the near future. Along with that, I hardly expect the League to tell the Hoyas to ante up or hit the road. Much as League leadership appears to have mishandled expansion (or lack thereof), it would seem doubly foolish to actively drive a school out. Unless you're hearing something where Georgetown is claiming "no scholarships or we walk," then I have to think scholarships will be approved

[carney2]

I was accused of being myopic on the Lafayette board - and with good reason. The accuser - a gentleman with a solid track record for making informed and rational comments - pointed out that the vote in December is not just about football. It is also about the long term viability and survival of the Patriot League. Army and Navy have a solid, vested interest in the continuation, even the strengthening, of the League.

That puts a different light on the votes of the academies come December. Even if they, as I believe they will, abstain from voting, they should probably be considered pro scholarships, and might not be above some serious lobbying and arm twisting. Remember, when Holy Cross said "Give us basketball scholarships or we're out of here," Army had their back with something of a "If they go, we go" attitude. So, how might similar threats from either or both academies sway the voters?

[DFW HOYA]

I'm certainly aware of Georgtwon's financial issues, or at least as much as you've elaborated on AGS, and hardly expect them to add scholarships in the near future. Along with that, I hardly expect the League to tell the Hoyas to ante up or hit the road.

I hope not, but being an outlier in this league is not a position of strength. Six moving to sixty and one staying at zero is bound to lead to some uncomfortable conversations at the presidents' meeting. I'd guess at least one school would just as soon go to six in that scenario.

And FWIW, Georgetown's avowed #1 priority is scholarships...need-based scholarships, that is. The goal is over 1,700 funded and partial scholarships for the undergraduate schools by 2014.

http://1789scholarships.georgetown.edu

[ngineer]

I was accused of being myopic on the Lafayette board - and with good reason. The accuser - a gentleman with a solid track record for making informed and rational comments - pointed out that the vote in December is not just about football. It is also about the long term viability and survival of the Patriot League. Army and Navy have a solid, vested interest in the continuation, even the strengthening, of the League.

That puts a different light on the votes of the academies come December. Even if they, as I believe they will, abstain from voting, they should probably be considered pro scholarships, and might not be above some serious lobbying and arm twisting. Remember, when Holy Cross said "Give us basketball scholarships or we're out of here," Army had their back with something of a "If they go, we go" attitude. So, how might similar threats from either or both academies sway the voters?


That does place things in a different light, though it may be a strobe. Army and Navy certainly do have vested interest in seeing the PL survive with all of the other sports, so it is not far-fetched to think they don't get 'involved' on some level--same with American.

[Bogus Megapardus]

@carney and @ngineer - this is why we need a decent PL message board. We never get the input of our friends at Army, Navy and American. I've been on the Army and Navy boards but there's very little discussion with other teams (unlike the Lafayette and Holy Cross boards which sort of act as semi-official all-PL sites). We need a place where everyone can be on the same page.

And I still have no idea what sports American plays.

[DFW HOYA]

And I still have no idea what sports American plays.

Why exactly is American in the Patriot League?

[Go...gate]

Why exactly is American in the Patriot League?

They are a Full Member.

[Sader87]

@carney and @ngineer - this is why we need a decent PL message board. We never get the input of our friends at Army, Navy and American. I've been on the Army and Navy boards but there's very little discussion with other teams (unlike the Lafayette and Holy Cross boards which sort of act as semi-official all-PL sites). We need a place where everyone can be on the same page.

And I still have no idea what sports American plays.

As I've said often...Holy Cross is the straw that stirs (fortunately or unfortunately) the Patriot League's drink.

[DFW HOYA]

They are a Full Member.

Well, sort of. Of the eleven PL men's sports, they play in just five: basketball, soccer, swimming, cross country, and track. They do not field teams in baseball, football, golf, lacrosse, rowing, or tennis.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Holy Cross is the straw that stirs (fortunately or unfortunately) the Patriot League's drink.

I'll have a double.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well, sort of. Of the eleven PL men's sports, they play in just five: basketball, soccer, swimming, cross country, and track. They do not field teams in baseball, football, golf, lacrosse, rowing, or tennis.

Nor softabll. Who doesn't play softball? I mean really! It's beyond me why American is in the Patriot. If Holy Cross if the straw that stirs the Patriot drink, then American is the date who went home early.

[carney2]

Why exactly is American in the Patriot League?

They entered under the "warm body" clause.

[carney2]

I will be 'pleasantly surprised' if the scholarships go through. The comments made in today's Groller column in the Morning Call seemed to indicate that being able to abide by Title IX and financial commitments would be the driving force without regard to the the blowouts the PL has been handed by the scholarship schools. I'm not so optimistic until I see some real sign.

It's all rumor and conjecture, so there will be no burning bush or signal from above. Still, for the first time, I think my personal betting parlor has the odds above 50%. The signs? For one, an indication from a "usually reliable source" that Bucknell, one of the question marks, may be leaning "yes." And, for another, me getting kicked in the duff to perhaps recognize the service academies' motivations in all of this - or that they have real motivation at all. As a football fan, and a Patriot League fan, I am for the first time encouraged.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

@carney and @ngineer - this is why we need a decent PL message board. We never get the input of our friends at Army, Navy and American. I've been on the Army and Navy boards but there's very little discussion with other teams (unlike the Lafayette and Holy Cross boards which sort of act as semi-official all-PL sites). We need a place where everyone can be on the same page.

And I still have no idea what sports American plays.

The Great West has a forum on this site. Why don't you guys get a Patriot Forum started on this site? Hasn't the determining factor been whether a league has a forum elsewhere? Will need a couple of you to moderate it. xtwocentsx

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Great West has a forum on this site. Why don't you guys get a Patriot Forum started on this site? Hasn't the determining factor been whether a league has a forum elsewhere? Will need a couple of you to moderate it. xtwocentsx

Starting a site is easy. You just buy a name at godaddy, grab some free "simple machines" software and propagate the name with dmoz,org. Any PL grad with basic software skills can do it in a hour or so. But then you have to baby-sit it. I see the crap that the very nice operators of AGS take day in and day out. Who wants that?

I thought a while back that another PL poster was going to start it. I suppose I could do it, but what right to I have to do that? And would I run afoul of the league's wishes if I do?

[Franks Tanks]

PL fans used to use the site below, but it hasnt seen activity in years.

http://www.voy.com/65230/

[Bogus Megapardus]

PL fans used to use the site below, but it hasnt seen activity in years.

http://www.voy.com/65230/

That was years ago and no one uses it now. That's because Voy forum really, really sucks as a message board vehicle. It worked 20 years ago, but not now. Besides, there's no way to register or filter spam, and there's no way to moderate it independently.

I note the Ivy board is still on Voy, though. Maybe we're obligated to mimic them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I thought a while back that another PL poster was going to start it. I suppose I could do it, but what right to I have to do that? And would I run afoul of the league's wishes if I do?

I was going to start one, but I've got a full plate already.

Though, I could add a PL board easily to the Lehigh Sports Forum if Laf fans can swallow their pride:

http://www.lehighsportsforum.com

News flash: No Army folks post over there either!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I was going to start one, but I've got a full plate already.

Though, I could add a PL board easily to the Lehigh Sports Forum if Laf fans can swallow their pride:

http://www.lehighsportsforum.com

News flash: No Army folks post over there either!

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of an "independent" site. It would have a moderator from each school - that means you, too, Army, Navy and American. I might play around with a design since I already have the software. It would certainly spare the good folks who enjoy AGS from all our Patriot League gibberish and incessant whinning.

[DFW HOYA]

I'd lean toward a sub-board on this site, unless you envision it to be a PL all-sport board. Basketball-U tried that and it's just Bucknell and a few passing strangers.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'd lean toward a sub-board on this site, unless you envision it to be a PL all-sport board. Basketball-U tried that and it's just Bucknell and a few passing strangers.

It would be PL all-sport, I think. Basketball-U is actually a pretty good idea but not everyone uses it. Since it's already there, that might be a good idea were it expanded to include football (Football-U?). For lacrosse everyone uses the LaxPower forum which is very active. That place has extreme loyalty and high credibility but it is dominated by Johns Hopkins.

We do seem to take up more space than we're worth on AGS, though. No one else cares about our inside jokes and obscure literary references.

[RichH2]

Inside jokes , well perhaps so. Agree that our own all sports board would be great. The Voy board was fun until it got polluted as was the original LU board on Voy. Setting up a PL board here should not be that hard, altho I was a history major. Let me see what I can find out.

[DFW HOYA]

Inside jokes , well perhaps so. Agree that our own all sports board would be great. The Voy board was fun until it got polluted as was the original LU board on Voy. Setting up a PL board here should not be that hard, altho I was a history major. Let me see what I can find out.


We do seem to take up more space than we're worth on AGS, though. No one else cares about our inside jokes and obscure literary references.

The board needs more Ivy posters. Arcane references about Cantabs, scramble bands, toast-tossing at Franklin Field, and cheers to Old Nassau would really have some Montana and McNeese heads spinning.

[carney2]

I could add a PL board easily to the Lehigh Sports Forum if Laf fans can swallow their pride

No swallowing! The chant begins:

Homer. Homer. Homer.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The board needs more Ivy posters. Arcane references about Cantabs, scramble bands, toast-tossing at Franklin Field, and cheers to Old Nassau would really have some Montana and McNeese heads spinning.

Those aren't even the particularly arcane references, either. Cantabs in Pardsville, oh my! And we hate the Penn Oxymoron Band. I mean truly despise them.

An occasional Ivy poster floats over to one of the Patriot school sites once in a while, but they're largely on the voy site, if at all. Plus there's the particularly well-prepared Big Green Alert Blog which covers more than just Dartmouth.

[carney2]

I'm lost. Are we seeing clear cut choices - and even "volunteers" (other than LFN) - for a Patriot League site?

As for Ivy posters, perhaps AGS could use some, but I fail to see how their presence affects a Patriot League site.

[ngineer]

I like to go to one place rather than having to hop all around. Right now, it's AGS, LFN, LehighSportsForum. I have to work sometime, y'know.

[Go...gate]

They entered under the "warm body" clause.

Respectfully, this is not true, either. President Adams of Bucknell led negotiations over a long period to bring American in. Part of the deal was what we always discuss in recruitment of members - that they will play by the AI and strengthen their scholar-athlete profile. AU saw the affiliation with the PL as one element in their own strategic plan to raise their academic profile. It is a very well-regarded school from which my sister graduated.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Respectfully, this is not true, either. President Adams of Bucknell led negotiations over a long period to bring American in. Part of the deal was what we always discuss in recruitment of members - that they will play by the AI and strengthen their scholar-athlete profile. AU saw the affiliation with the PL as one element in their own strategic plan to raise their academic profile. It is a very well-regarded school from which my sister graduated.

And I have two extended family members at AU now, both with my recommendation. Both were swayed becasue of AU's Patriot affiliation. AU dug itself out of a pretty big hole with its Patriot affiliation and the help of Dr. Adams and - gulp - Dr. Rothkopf (who sits on AU's board). If you are the company you keep, then AU clearly picked the right cocktail party. Keep stirring that drink, Sader87.

My beef with AU is that it does not fully participate in our variety of sports. Football I can understand. I know that AU has the highest ratio of women of any PL school, but come on - No softball? No lacrosse? No baseball? Not even tennis? There are mainstream PL sports and it just seems like AU isn't pulling its weight.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm lost. Are we seeing clear cut choices - and even "volunteers" (other than LFN) - for a Patriot League site?

As for Ivy posters, perhaps AGS could use some, but I fail to see how their presence affects a Patriot League site.

OK, folks - here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to look into setting up a non-public Beta website using Simple Machines software. It will have registration, moderation, filters, etc. - even spellcheck (because we know they don't teach spelling at Lehigh until the master's level). I'll invite all the regular posters on the current PL boards to log in, check it out and make suggestions. Any of the administrators of the current PL sites can have administration access, too, if they want to tinker with it before it goes public. It will be non-commercial but it will have the very latest layouts, features and graphics.

If enough people think it's viable, I'll purchase unique domain name (carney2football.org? ShouldaBeenInTheBigEast.org? FootballScholarshipsNow.org?) and some Linux virtual server space and put it up as a public site and propagate it through dmoz.org. I'll probably reach out to the Patriot League and see if they have any objections to use of their logo and trade mark. It will state explicitly that it's not affiliated with the PL any individual school or any alumni club.

It will try hard to include Army, Navy and American participants and it will cover all sports, plus news, rumors and tid-bits from each school. Maybe even a rate-your-classes section. It will also have space for club sports - rugby, hockey, wrestling, squash, etc. - because not every school supports these at the varsity level. Monitoring will be strictly PG at least at first. We can always add a "Women of the Patriot League" section later with sufficient interest. If the site ends up having a slightly maroon-ish color scheme that will be completely by accident, I assure you.

Does anybody think this is worth it? Remember, it won't go public unless everyone thinks it's not a complete waste of time.

[Franks Tanks]

OK, folks - here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to look into setting up a non-public Beta website using Simple Machines software. It will have registration, moderation, filters, etc. - even spellcheck (because we know they don't teach spelling at Lehigh until the master's level). I'll invite all the regular posters on the current PL boards to log in, check it out and make suggestions. Any of the administrators of the current PL sites can have administration access, too, if they want to tinker with it before it goes public. It will be non-commercial but it will have the very latest layouts, features and graphics.

If enough people think it's viable, I'll purchase unique domain name (carney2football.org? ShouldaBeenInTheBigEast.org? FootballScholarshipsNow.org?) and some Linux virtual server space and put it up as a public site and propagate it through dmoz.org. I'll probably reach out to the Patriot League and see if they have any objections to use of their logo and trade mark. It will state explicitly that it's not affiliated with the PL any individual school or any alumni club.

It will try hard to include Army, Navy and American participants and it will cover all sports, plus news, rumors and tid-bits from each school. Maybe even a rate-your-classes section. It will also have space for club sports - rugby, hockey, wrestling, squash, etc. - because not every school supports these at the varsity level. Monitoring will be strictly PG at least at first. We can always add a "Women of the Patriot League" section later with sufficient interest. If the site ends up having a slightly maroon-ish color scheme that will be completely by accident, I assure you.

Does anybody think this is worth it? Remember, it won't go public unless everyone thinks it's not a complete waste of time.

I think it is a great idea. I parouse many PL boards and this place to gather info and take part in inteersting discussion. Having a place where fans from each school can go to talk about league wide issues would be great.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think it is a great idea. I parouse many PL boards and this place to gather info and take part in inteersting discussion. Having a place where fans from each school can go to talk about league wide issues would be great.

I just don't want to step on the toes of the existing sites. Nor do I want to detract from AGS - that is assuming that AGS really cares about all our Patriot clutter in the first place. We're the worst offenders when it come to hijacking threads. Fortunately it's usually our own threads that we hijack.

[TheValleyRaider]

I hope not, but being an outlier in this league is not a position of strength. Six moving to sixty and one staying at zero is bound to lead to some uncomfortable conversations at the presidents' meeting. I'd guess at least one school would just as soon go to six in that scenario.

Well, I think more than 1 school is going to have to want the Hoyas out for them to leave. You're also conjecturing that all 6 members will jump to a full scholarship complement right away (or as quickly as possible). It would not shock me in the least to see Lafayette and Holy Cross balk at adding scholarships, at least right away, and certainly not up to the maximum

I certainly understand your concerns regarding Georgetown and a position of strength, but if leadership is truly interested in the long-term survival of the League, and a vote for scholarships would suggest that to me, then talking about jettisoning members and going to 6 permenantly would seem very incompatible. Again, though, this is conjecture on my part, hardly worth the xtwocentsx it costs to say anything, given I possess nothing resembling insider knowledge

[Bogus Megapardus]

I still think it's not rational to think that any league member would want Georgetown to leave. As unlikely as it seems now, what would happen if Georgetown were in a position, say in ten years, to be an all-sports member?

[Go...gate]

And I have two extended family members at AU now, both with my recommendation. Both were swayed becasue of AU's Patriot affiliation. AU dug itself out of a pretty big hole with its Patriot affiliation and the help of Dr. Adams and - gulp - Dr. Rothkopf (who sits on AU's board). If you are the company you keep, then AU clearly picked the right cocktail party. Keep stirring that drink, Sader87.

My beef with AU is that it does not fully participate in our variety of sports. Football I can understand. I know that AU has the highest ratio of women of any PL school, but come on - No softball? No lacrosse? No baseball? Not even tennis? There are mainstream PL sports and it just seems like AU isn't pulling its weight.

It may be simply a matter of dollars and cents.

[DFW HOYA]

As unlikely as it seems now, what would happen if Georgetown were in a position, say in ten years, to be an all-sports member?

Not going to happen. It's financially unsustainable and the fan base would never support it. Richmond will join the PL before Georgetown or even Villanova does.

But, if the PL can craft a deal that welcomes Fordham back in for all-sports (and there is a scenario in this scholarship vote which could allow it to happen), the concept of PL associate members takes a different path.

[carney2]

OK, folks - here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to look into setting up a non-public Beta website using Simple Machines software. It will have registration, moderation, filters, etc. - even spellcheck (because we know they don't teach spelling at Lehigh until the master's level). I'll invite all the regular posters on the current PL boards to log in, check it out and make suggestions. Any of the administrators of the current PL sites can have administration access, too, if they want to tinker with it before it goes public. It will be non-commercial but it will have the very latest layouts, features and graphics.

If enough people think it's viable, I'll purchase unique domain name (carney2football.org? ShouldaBeenInTheBigEast.org? FootballScholarshipsNow.org?) and some Linux virtual server space and put it up as a public site and propagate it through dmoz.org. I'll probably reach out to the Patriot League and see if they have any objections to use of their logo and trade mark. It will state explicitly that it's not affiliated with the PL any individual school or any alumni club.

It will try hard to include Army, Navy and American participants and it will cover all sports, plus news, rumors and tid-bits from each school. Maybe even a rate-your-classes section. It will also have space for club sports - rugby, hockey, wrestling, squash, etc. - because not every school supports these at the varsity level. Monitoring will be strictly PG at least at first. We can always add a "Women of the Patriot League" section later with sufficient interest. If the site ends up having a slightly maroon-ish color scheme that will be completely by accident, I assure you.

Does anybody think this is worth it? Remember, it won't go public unless everyone thinks it's not a complete waste of time.

Sounds good.

My head is swimming with Beta, Simple Machines and the like.

I absolutely adore the carney2 domain name.

[RichH2]

Like Carney I only understood the little words, got my master's and doctorate but not at LU and not in computerese. Since I was last up with running voy boards for Pl and LU any help I can give I will be happy to do so

[headdressguy]

I enjoy perusing these threads - if you abandon us here at AGS, at least let us outsiders know how to get to the new place. Maybe you could have a JV board where you keep the Latin at a high school level?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I enjoy perusing these threads - if you abandon us here at AGS, at least let us outsiders know how to get to the new place. Maybe you could have a JV board where you keep the Latin at a high school level?

Oh, it will be a public board if I actually set it up. It's just that a lot of the stuff we talk about here tends to be PL specific. I guess we need a place that includes our league mates at Army, Navy and American U., who don't play FCS football. No one is going to abandon AGS, I'm sure. Someone has to be the bottom rung on the latter, right?