Patriot League

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

How bad is this conference right now? Two of the pre-season favorites got out scored 80-15 today. Is it safe to say that if they decide against schollies the conference's auto bid should be revoked?

[dbackjon]

Yes. They are becoming a joke.

Good thing the NEC and Big South got auto-bids this year - both are more deserving.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yes. They are becoming a joke.

Good thing the NEC and Big South got auto-bids this year - both are more deserving.

Yeah, it's becoming bad. I have a feeling HC is going to get steam rolled by UMASS tonight.

[TheValleyRaider]

Is it safe to say that if they decide against schollies the conference's auto bid should be revoked?

Umm, what? xeyebrowx

Let's get a grip, please. The League isn't that great, no kidding. Yes scholarships would help, and I'm all for them, but let's please be serious here. If we're going to throw out things like revoking the autobid, then why don't we just drop football?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Umm, what? xeyebrowx

Let's get a grip, please. The League isn't that great, no kidding. Yes scholarships would help, and I'm all for them, but let's please be serious here. If we're going to throw out things like revoking the autobid, then why don't we just drop football?

Well the PL stayed away from the playoffs for the first 10 or so years so i don't believe it's far fetched. If the league votes against schollies you couldn't see a scenerio where they're pressured to give up their bid? I have to believe they'll be serious talks should the league stay the non-schollie route.

[TheValleyRaider]

Well the PL stayed away from the playoffs for the first 10 or so years so i don't believe it's far fetched. If the league votes against schollies you couldn't see a scenerio where they're pressured to give up their bid? I have to believe they'll be serious talks should the league stay the non-schollie route.

I think you severely overestimate the degree to which the NCAA cares whether we go scholarship or not

[RichH2]

I did not expect LU to win but I did hope to compete. D made some nice plays with TOs and sacks but gave up too many big plays. Ol was supposed to be a strength but they were totally dominated and embarassed by Nova . Lum , all things considered did OK but 3 ints does not help any O particularly one that could not run the ball all day. Coen again went to the OOC mantra we have heard for too many years " we made too many mistakes".

The kids played very hard all the way thru for sure. Nova much faster and more athletic. But to be shut out at home. Ridiculous.
'

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Holy Cross is in the process of getting their teeth knocked in by UMASS. Down 14-0 and they just recovered an onside kick. Just terrible play by PL teams.

[RichH2]

We as a league are being outclassed by better teams. Not so much bad play by our teams as better much better play by OOC squads. It seems they need to come in flat and we need to be perfect just to compete. Look at LU got first 3 TOs could not score a point.

[DFW HOYA]

In other news, Georgetown has fumbled the first two punts of the game inside the Lafayette 10.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Umass is up 21-0 early in the 2nd quarter. When it's all said and done Lehigh might end up with the most respectable blowout loss of the day. At least there's came agaisnt the #2 ranked team, lol.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Hopefully Bucknell doesn't lose to Marist. Maybe Fordham can take of URI as well.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I can proudly say that Lehigh's play today is nowhere near as bad as HC's. Umass might win 70-0.

[dbackjon]

Hopefully Bucknell doesn't lose to Marist. Maybe Fordham can take of URI as well.


URI and Marist both winning right now

['Gate93]

Regrettably, it feels like the PL is the cupcake league of the FCS; it's not embarrassing, but frustrating. The teams are good, the coaches are good, and the boys play hard. I'd say not having scholarships makes the league even more deserving of an autobid. These OOC losses make it difficult to be taken seriously, let alone make a strong schedule.

With Fordham ineligible, Georgetown being consistently unimpressive, and Bucknell struggling over the years, it seems that one of four teams will battle again for the title.

[DFW HOYA]

Halftime scores:

Lafayette 24, Georgetown 14
UMass 31, Holy Cross 0
URI 14, Fordham 7
Marist 7, Bucknell 0


With Fordham ineligible, Georgetown being consistently unimpressive, and Bucknell struggling over the years, it seems that one of four teams will battle again for the title.

Consistently, as in ten straight seasons. Three PL wins in seven years.

[DerHoya]

o btw Gtown 28, Laf 24. Gtown ball with ~12mins to go in game.

Decent game with both teams making some mistakes. Gtown offense isn't what it use to be...

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I don't know if I would call the PL the cupcakes of FCS, Lehigh and Colgate have both been good in the not so distant past. If the NEC and MEAC can both get autobids, the PL certainly deserves one.

[maristdb89]

Marist 14
Bucknell 3

Final

[van]

Georgetown 2 and 0, who'd a thunk it?

[Fordham]

Hey, the good Rams had a good character win today with a come from behind win v URI.

Congrats to the Hoyas as well. Helluva win

[hawkineer]

Hey, the good Rams had a good character win today with a come from behind win v URI.

No offense, but Fordham's really no longer part of the league, which is probably why they were able to scratch out a win.xnonox

Fordham*
* - Not eligible for Patriot League title, and games do not count towards Patriot League standings for either team

[Sader87]

This Saturday has to be the nadir for PL football....Lehigh, Colgate and HC were completely dominated/out-classed by their ooc foes. Congrats to our "associate members" but right now I don't see one positive thing for the league coming out of this weekend.

[Go...gate]

Yes. They are becoming a joke.

Good thing the NEC and Big South got auto-bids this year - both are more deserving.

Thanks for the class, Ace.

[Go...gate]

This Saturday has to be the nadir for PL football....Lehigh, Colgate and HC were completely dominated/out-classed by their ooc foes. Congrats to our "associate members" but right now I don't see one positive thing for the league coming out of this weekend.

Having been here since the beginning (1986) I believe this is the league's lowest point. Though we are not a "joke", as one poster put it, we are truly at a crossroads.

[Sader87]

Having been here since the beginning (1986) I believe this is the league's lowest point. Though we are not a "joke", as one poster put it, we are truly at a crossroads.

We are not a "joke" but we are quickly becoming irrelevant in the FCS football world...this coming from someone who was at and still hurts from the Tom Parr 2 pt conversion for Gate in a 22-21 Red Raider W over the Cross in 1973.

[Fordham]

No offense, but Fordham's really no longer part of the league, which is probably why they were able to scratch out a win.xnonox

Fordham*
* - Not eligible for Patriot League title, and games do not count towards Patriot League standings for either team there were two posts prior to mine referencing Fordham but they were losing at the time. Don't jump in with your tsk tsk bs only when there's something positive being said.

And if we truly were no longer part of the league, you'd be certain the PL was not going schollie. Jury's still out on that one.

[Sader87]

there were two posts prior to mine referencing Fordham but they were losing at the time. Don't jump in with your tsk tsk bs only when there's something positive being said.

And if we truly were no longer part of the league, you'd be certain the PL was not going schollie. Jury's still out on that one.

I applaud Fordham for forcing the "scholarship issue"...the league as it stands now is an absolute joke in the FCS world.

[ngineer]

This definitely was the worst if not one of the worst weekends for PL football. If this doesn't make a statement about the need for being able to recruit with scholarships, nothing ever will. Lehigh had a few moments today, but the moment they seemed to get some momentum, they either commtted a penalty, ran into each other, or had a turnover. Too many short yardage situations today where we could not get a first down. The size, quickness, speed and depth of the Wildcats was so clear. And just think, we get to go to New Hampshire in two weeks!

[ngineer]

I applaud Fordham for forcing the "scholarship issue"...the league as it stands now is an absolute joke in the FCS world.

Over the top. The PL is not a 'joke'. In fact, it is/was a noble experiment. We may be becoming irrelevant, but we're not a joke.

[DFW HOYA]

Losing to Villanova, Furman, or UMass is not a sign of the PL's decline--most people would have had them favored anyway.

The only clunker on the scoreboard was Marist over Bucknell. Next for the Bison: three straight at home versus Dartmouth, Cornell, and Penn.

[Pard4Life]

How do we go from having one of the best years ever to being a joke? Maybe some teams were a little overhyped... HC had no business being ranked with what they've lost and Lehigh is still terrible. Colgate... don't know what happened in that game. The Ivy slate will be a decent benchmark...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Losing to Villanova, Furman, or UMass is not a sign of the PL's decline--most people would have had them favored anyway.

The only clunker on the scoreboard was Marist over Bucknell. Next for the Bison: three straight at home versus Dartmouth, Cornell, and Penn.

The league used to be able to compete with these teams 4 or 5 years ago. They're not longer comeptitive. That's a sign of decline.

[Pard4Life]

Bingo... top 10 teams... now we are getting beaten up by weaker OOC teams that's a different story.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

How do we go from having one of the best years ever to being a joke? Maybe some teams were a little overhyped... HC had no business being ranked with what they've lost and Lehigh is still terrible. Colgate... don't know what happened in that game. The Ivy slate will be a decent benchmark...

If Lehigh is terrible than Colgate and HC are equally horrible. Furman wasn't even ranked!

[Pard4Life]

The league used to be able to compete with these teams 4 or 5 years ago. They're not longer comeptitive. That's a sign of decline.

And we competed with them last year... maybe Lehigh hasn't but that's a different story.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

The league used to be able to compete with these teams 4 or 5 years ago. They're not longer comeptitive. That's a sign of decline.

I remember games vs. Lehigh at Delaware stadium around ten years ago where Lehigh was a formidable opponent, even during years when the Hens were also good. I can't speak for the rest of the Patriot League, as the only other game I've seen has been UD vs. Colgate, and we all know how that turned out.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

And we competed with them last year... maybe Lehigh hasn't but that's a different story.

Competed with who? A Liberty team that didn't make the playoffs?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I remember games vs. Lehigh at Delaware stadium around ten years ago where Lehigh was a formidable opponent, even during years when the Hens were also good. I can't speak for the rest of the Patriot League, as the only other game I've seen has been UD vs. Colgate, and we all know how that turned out.

I have no idea how Lehigh did it from '98 to '01. They just completely outclassed everyone in the league during that period. Most of the games weren't even close. Amazing how far they've fallen.

[Sader87]

The PL is a "joke" of what it once was....like Prohibition it's a "noble experiment" that has failed misreably.

[Pard4Life]

Competed with who? A Liberty team that didn't make the playoffs?

I'm not talking solely about Lafayette... Holy Cross came close to picking off Mass and Villanova.

[ngineer]

The talent level of the PL has not gotten worse. The talent level of the CAA, SoCon, and NEC has improved much greater. So while we expected to compete and grab a win every now and then with the CAA, and used to dominate the NEC, now to beat a CAA team requires "the perfect game" and we're struggling with the NEC. We haven't upgraded. Like we're still using Windows 2000...

[Go...gate]

We are not a "joke" but we are quickly becoming irrelevant in the FCS football world...this coming from someone who was at and still hurts from the Tom Parr 2 pt conversion for Gate in a 22-21 Red Raider W over the Cross in 1973.

Great game; neither side deserved to lose that day.

[Go...gate]

One thing is absolutely certain. The message is being driven home to the Presidents from on the field.

[carney2]

One thing is absolutely certain. The message is being driven home to the Presidents from on the field.

And they haven't heard any of it. One more time: the scholarship decison will not be made based on anything football. It's about money and League survival. Oh yeah, it's about money.

...Did I mention how important money will be in all of this?

Anyway, win, lose, get blown out and humilated, none of it means squat.

[ngineer]

I tend to agree with you. "We" really make up a small minority of alums from all PL schools who are passionately caught up in trying to see successful football at our schools. While there are a lot of 'casual' fans, the great majority really don't care that much (except for the Lehigh-Lafayette game). So as long as that remains, most everything else football is a general shrug of the shoulders.

[aceinthehole]

How do we go from having one of the best years ever to being a joke? Maybe some teams were a little overhyped... HC had no business being ranked with what they've lost and Lehigh is still terrible. Colgate... don't know what happened in that game. The Ivy slate will be a decent benchmark...

Glad you PL fans are finally saying this. You still have some solid teams, but nothing approaching the top-25.

And please, the Ivy isn't a benchmark for anything in FCS.

[Go...gate]

That may the case for Lafayette (hard to believe it would be with Rothkopf gone), but I don't believe for a minute that view prevails at Colgate or even Lehigh. This is looking like the early 1990's all over again.

[Go...gate]

How do we go from having one of the best years ever to being a joke? Maybe some teams were a little overhyped... HC had no business being ranked with what they've lost and Lehigh is still terrible. Colgate... don't know what happened in that game. The Ivy slate will be a decent benchmark...

Respectfully, what year are you talking about?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

And they haven't heard any of it. One more time: the scholarship decison will not be made based on anything football. It's about money and League survival. Oh yeah, it's about money.

...Did I mention how important money will be in all of this?

Anyway, win, lose, get blown out and humilated, none of it means squat.

Does the scholarship question boil down to the money for the PL? I always thought the PL avoided the scholarships out of a desire to be seen as similar to the Ivy League.

[ngineer]

Does the scholarship question boil down to the money for the PL? I always thought the PL avoided the scholarships out of a desire to be seen as similar to the Ivy League.

That is true, but the bottom line will still be the expense of going scholarship..especially for those schools with Title IX implications.

[DFW HOYA]

That is true, but the bottom line will still be the expense of going scholarship..especially for those schools with Title IX implications.

Which schools have the Title IX implications? By what I've read that list would be Lafayette, Georgetown, (maybe) Holy Cross and Bucknell. Colgate and Lehigh seem to have more pure athletic aid in the mix.

[Go...gate]

Colgate is set up to comply under Title IX. That should not be a deterrent.

[Go...gate]

Does the scholarship question boil down to the money for the PL? I always thought the PL avoided the scholarships out of a desire to be seen as similar to the Ivy League.

That's right. But even the Ivy handles aid differently than they did in 1986, when the PL started as a football conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sunday's Word: Gap.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/09/sundays-word-gap.html

[jimbo65]

Lets hope that as Prohibition the "Noble Experiment" was repealed, the PL will repeal non-schollies in December. Elliot Ness was asked what was he going to do now that Prohibition was repealed. He replied "have a drink". Once the non-schollies ruling is repealed, the first thing the PL will do is improve.

[ngineer]

Which schools have the Title IX implications? By what I've read that list would be Lafayette, Georgetown, (maybe) Holy Cross and Bucknell. Colgate and Lehigh seem to have more pure athletic aid in the mix.

I know Lafayette has serious Title IX problems, and possibly Bucknell and Georgetown to a lesser degree. Not sure about HC.

[ngineer]

Lets hope that as Prohibition the "Noble Experiment" was repealed, the PL will repeal non-schollies in December. Elliot Ness was asked what was he going to do now that Prohibition was repealed. He replied "have a drink". Once the non-schollies ruling is repealed, the first thing the PL will do is improve.

That is certainly what we hope would be the result.

[OL FU]

Sunday's Word: Gap.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/09/sundays-word-gap.html

I am sure it has been said many times before but you said it well. Without arguing the rights and wrongs of scholarships the difference is clear and it is scholarships. Furman might not be at exactly the same level academically as Colgate, but it isn't that far off. We have a graduation rate in the high 90% range. We might drop our entrance requirements slightly for athletes but not significantly enough to negatively impact their ability to graduate. We, as you stated, run a clean program. The two schools that played in Greenville saturday are very comparable in every way except that Furman can offer a scholarship to whomever as long as we think they can meet the academic requirements at Furman. The graduation rate proves that a school can maintain academic integrity while providing athletic scholarships.

I hope the Patriot League responds. I fear it will get worse if not.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I know Lafayette has serious Title IX problems, and possibly Bucknell and Georgetown to a lesser degree. Not sure about HC.

Not sure why you say you know this, ngineer. Lafayette does not have any Title IX issues, serious or otherwise, as far as I know. In fact, Lafayette has taken great lengths historically be a leader in gender equality issues. It is really, really unhelpful, I think, for people to keep repeating on a national message board that a particular institution has "Title IX issues." You certainly can say that our football team sucks - that's an opinion. But to state definitively that Lafayette is breaking the law - that goes into another area.

Another thing about Title IX - has anyone here actually read Title IX? Its regulations? Familiar with when, why and under what conditions the regulations and administrative letters were issued? If I were to spout forth here, "so and so has egregious Title IX issues; plaintiff's lawyers ought to be salivating with rapacious greed," how and by what standard do I know I'm right?

Maybe Lafayette would choose to change certain practices if football scholarships were offered. I know that Lafayette has among the most transparent practices in regard to gender equity anywhere, unlike "other places" which engage regularly in sanctioned sleight-of hand. I have to wonder why the educated posters on this board keep repeating, over and over, that Lafayette has "Tilte IX problems" knowing full well that the statement is completely and utterly false. Isn't there a single institution other than Lafayette that you could pick on? I could name about two dozen off the top of my head that are facially in gross non-compliance. Lafayette would be about the last one I would think of.

[Franks Tanks]

Not sure why you say you know this, ngineer. Lafayette does not have any Title IX issues, serious or otherwise, as far as I know. In fact, Lafayette has taken great lengths historically be a leader in gender equality issues. It is really, really unhelpful, I think, for people to keep repeating on a national message board that a particular institution has "Title IX issues." You certainly can say that our football team sucks - that's an opinion. But to state definitively that Lafayette is breaking the law - that goes into another area.

Another thing about Title IX - has anyone here actually read Title IX? Its regulations? Familiar with when, why and under what conditions the regulations and administrative letters were issued? If I were to spout forth here, "so and so has egregious Title IX issues; plaintiff's lawyers ought to be salivating with rapacious greed," how and by what standard do I know I'm right?

Maybe Lafayette would choose to change certain practices if football scholarships were offered. I know that Lafayette has among the most transparent practices in regard to gender equity anywhere, unlike "other places" which engage regularly in sanctioned sleight-of hand. I have to wonder why the educated posters on this board keep repeating, over and over, that Lafayette has "Tilte IX problems" knowing full well that the statement is completely and utterly false. Isn't there a single institution other than Lafayette that you could pick on? I could name about two dozen off the top of my head that are facially in gross non-compliance.

Correct Bogus. Lafayette is compliant with title IX at the present. If we add football scholarships additional scholarship funding would need to be added for the gals, but wouldn't that the the case at all PL schools? Could any PL school add football scholarship without changing the women's funding? I doubt it so every school will have to make changes when adding scholarships.

[Ken_Z]

And they haven't heard any of it. One more time: the scholarship decison will not be made based on anything football. It's about money and League survival. Oh yeah, it's about money.

...Did I mention how important money will be in all of this?

Anyway, win, lose, get blown out and humilated, none of it means squat.

why is it that my arch enemy seems to be the only person who consistently recognizes and remembers this?

[Go...gate]

I am sure it has been said many times before but you said it well. Without arguing the rights and wrongs of scholarships the difference is clear and it is scholarships. Furman might not be at exactly the same level academically as Colgate, but it isn't that far off. We have a graduation rate in the high 90% range. We might drop our entrance requirements slightly for athletes but not significantly enough to negatively impact their ability to graduate. We, as you stated, run a clean program. The two schools that played in Greenville saturday are very comparable in every way except that Furman can offer a scholarship to whomever as long as we think they can meet the academic requirements at Furman. The graduation rate proves that a school can maintain academic integrity while providing athletic scholarships.

I hope the Patriot League responds. I fear it will get worse if not.

You are where we were thirty-three years ago when, with need-based aid, high academic standards but no AI, Fred Dunlap put Colgate in the Division I (the whole division) Top 20.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Maybe Lafayette would choose to change certain practices if football scholarships were offered. I know that Lafayette has among the most transparent practices in regard to gender equity anywhere, unlike "other places" which engage regularly in sanctioned sleight-of hand. I have to wonder why the educated posters on this board keep repeating, over and over, that Lafayette has "Tilte IX problems" knowing full well that the statement is completely and utterly false. Isn't there a single institution other than Lafayette that you could pick on? I could name about two dozen off the top of my head that are facially in gross non-compliance. Lafayette would be about the last one I would think of.

I'd like to shamelessly point folks to my blog posting on the matter - still relevant:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/07/complicated-puzzle-of-title-ix-and.html

I think the overall problem is not Title IX sleight-of-hand but that creative new interpretations of the law have required creativity to remain in compliance. And when schools actually try to create new opportunities for female athletes that female athletes actually want - i.e. competitive cheerleading - it somehow "doesn't count", even though they train, compete, and even get injuries.

You can define the argument that every Division I school in the country does something as a sop to Title IX and is not in the letter of compliance - e.g., if your student body is 51% female, 51% of the spending does not go to women's sports. On one side, there are the Title IX activists that wish to get to that unrealistic number - and in the process, destroy collegiate wrestling and seriously maim college football - the other, who want to be rid of the burden of supporting any women's sports so that their team can raise a crystal ball at the end of the year.

The key, I think, is that you're not overstepping the line (e.g. Quinnipiac) and you do continually offer, and pay for, sensible programs for women to compete. I see no evidence that Lafayette is systemically denying women that opportunity.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And they haven't heard any of it. One more time: the scholarship decison will not be made based on anything football. It's about money and League survival. Oh yeah, it's about money.

...Did I mention how important money will be in all of this?

Anyway, win, lose, get blown out and humilated, none of it means squat.


why is it that my arch enemy seems to be the only person who consistently recognizes and remembers this?

You guys have a point, but even you guys have to admit that "league survival" point took a major hit this weekend. Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross - and even Bucknell - didn't do much surviving in their games.

And I don't agree that getting blown out and humiliated means nothing. The Presidents may not care whether they win or lose in the end - but they do care if they're putting their athletes in a situation where they don't have a chance to benefit or learn.

[RichH2]

BOGIE

As I understand it, Pard problem is that they were allowed to budget $$ for women but they did not actually have to spend it. With schollies LC will now have to make the "budgeted" $ real and spend it. I gleaned this info by going back to Vol 47, page 689, of the compilation of the various and sundry threads on this topic on AGS

[carney2]

Colgate is set up to comply under Title IX. That should not be a deterrent.

Oh goody. That's ONE vote. It will take at least 4.

[carney2]

why is it that my arch enemy seems to be the only person who consistently recognizes and remembers this?

The relentless flogging has taken its toll. Besides, with your toady, 137, watching your back I feel oh so alone.

[OL FU]

You are where we were thirty-three years ago when, with need-based aid, high academic standards but no AI, Fred Dunlap put Colgate in the Division I (the whole division) Top 20.

I admit to being ignorant on the entire AI discussion. But I think you get my point, there is no reason other than scholarships or the AI for Colgate and Furman's difference in football. Everything else about the schools is pretty much the same.

something else to consider, Furman was atrocious in the 60s. the reason is we decided to do away with athletic scholarships in football. They were re-instated in the 70s and we went on to win conference championships in the late 70s and 80s included whipping the crap out of several I-A teams.

[carney2]

No one seems to have posted the score so I will note here that Lehigh was also crushed in the battle of the turnstiles on Saturday. On a gorgeous sun-splashed afternoon when no one owning a dung brown diploma from Fowl U. had any excuse to stay home, only 8,168 showed up at Badman for the traditional thrashing of the Squawk. Meanwhile, up in Amherst, the Minutemen put 16,352 fannies in the seats. It would appear that the feathered faithful have deserted in droves and will require some sort of miracle resurrection to return. The Nova bunch didn't help much. They get poor crowds at home and even worse on the road. This will, of course, change drastically when they join the Big Least, particularly in that Philadelphia market which just loves college football. But I digress,...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Pard problem is that they were allowed to budget $$ for women but they did not actually have to spend it.

Again, your source for these "facts?" I could just as easily speculate about Lehigh's "spending practices" viv-a-vis its "endowed" wrestling scholarships. Where's the women's counterpart? I just don't think it's helpful for PL posters to disparage one another's gender equity compliance profiles.

I can say this with reasonable assurance, however: the Patriot League will not sanction football scholarships without both Lafayette and Lehigh in the fold, even if Lafayette votes "no," which seems likely at this point based on recent public pronouncements. And both will have Smart People with all the facts at their disposal who will establish and guide the adjustments needed, if any, to ensure continued gender equity compliance.

Coming here as you do and announcing that Lafayette under present circumstances has Title IX issues is ill-informed and just plain wrong. I really wish you would stop it, like right now. It's incredibly annoying.

[carney2]

BOGIE

As I understand it, Pard problem is that they were allowed to budget $$ for women but they did not actually have to spend it. With schollies LC will now have to make the "budgeted" $ real and spend it. I gleaned this info by going back to Vol 47, page 689, of the compilation of the various and sundry threads on this topic on AGS

You are, as usual, on the right page, Rich. The $1 million is a bit large, but is ball parky. In addition, the College would have to match the football scholarships with something similar for women. (Until now, need based aid for football payers was theoretically the same aid offered to every incoming freshman and did not set off any Title IX alarms.) My guesstimate - and it is a total WAG on my part - is that football scholarships would cost Lafayette something in the $1,2-$1.5 million per year range. That is not a once and done expenditure. It is year in and year out. At the moment there is no way to expand the student body (approximately 2,400) and grab some extra cash that way, so one is hard pressed to see how they cover this. It looks like a lot of lost tuition revenue to me. Money games would not make much of a dent in that they would yield only $300,000-$500,000 per game minus expenses. There would be further rebellion by the tuition paying public (parents of high school seniors) who would see yet another way that the academy is frittering away the $50,000+ that it costs to attend these patriot League institutions.

There is no obvious reason for Lafayette to vote "Yes."

[carney2]

Again, your source for these "facts?" I could just as easily speculate about Lehigh's "spending practices" viv-a-vis its "endowed" wrestling scholarships. Where's the women's counterpart? I just don't think it's helpful for PL posters to disparage one another's gender equity compliance profiles.

I can say this with reasonable assurance, however: the Patriot League will not sanction football scholarships without both Lafayette and Lehigh in the fold, even if Lafayette votes "no," which seems likely at this point based on recent public pronouncements. And both will have Smart People with all the facts at their disposal who will establish and guide the adjustments needed, if any, to ensure continued gender equity compliance.

Coming here as you do and announcing that Lafayette under present circumstances has Title IX issues is ill-informed and just plain wrong. I really wish you would stop it, like right now. It's incredibly annoying.

Pull in your horns, Bogie. Rich is simply stating what has become "common knowledge." We may of course be spouting urban legends here, but this has been banging around for more than a year. I can't give you the "source," but I am convinced that it came from one of two or three guys on the Lafayette board that we consider to be "reliable sources" and even "insiders." I'm buying it 100%, and have even heard Frank state in a public forum that "some schools have Title IX issues" when he was obviously referring to Lafayette. Rich is right on target here. If you want chapter and verse sources in this environment you are on the wrong planet.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is no obvious reason for Lafayette to vote "Yes."

Yes, there is. Lehigh has basically stated publicly they're on Fordham's side on this. For many, the mere thought of "falling behind" Lehigh will be enough.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Pull in your horns, Bogie.

I apologize for my tone, folks. I just hope nobody thinks we'll go into this without assuring full gender equity compliance. If we can't assure it, it won't happen.

[carney2]

Yes, there is. Lehigh has basically stated publicly they're on Fordham's side on this. For many, the mere thought of "falling behind" Lehigh will be enough.

My understanding is - and this is also based on "reliable sources" because what else do we have out here in Rumorland - that, for Lafayette, the vote and the resultant action are two separate matters. They will, it is assumed, vote "No," but if the consensus says "Yes," they will proceed with scholarships like everyone else and not revert to that basketball scholarship fiasco under Artie the Ostrich Rothkopf. Apparently they are not going to do the same thing again and expect different results.

[jimbo65]

There is no obvious reason for Lafayette to vote "Yes."
Respectfully, one reason is to win some games. If the PL rejects the schollies, weekends as just experienced will be the rule, unless the games are intra conference. Without schollies, the PL is in sort of the same position vis a vis the Ivy League that Fordham is in vis a vis the rest of the PL i.e., competitive disadvantage. IMO that is just the way things are. Life isn't fair, it just if (anon). Adapt or fail.

[carney2]

I apologize for my tone, folks. I just hope nobody thinks we'll go into this without assuring full gender equity compliance. If we can't assure it, it won't happen.

It can be "assured" by throwing money at it. I think that my $1.2-$1.5 million per year is pretty much spot on. It comes primarily from two places:

The budgeted but not spent dollars for women's sports that Rich referred to was originally reported in the $800,000-$900,000 range.

Add to that the revenues lost by offering women's athletic scholarships in excess of need-based aid currently doled out to these same athletes and I think you have it.

I'm sure that educated and intelligent administrators of a Patriot League school will find ways to pare this down, but we have, as I stated before, out here in Rumorland, an estimate that I can live with.

[carney2]

Equally respectfully, and back atcha, jimbo, I refer you back to my post 45 in this same thread where I stated, and even the infamous KenZ agreed, that football wins and losses will not carry any weight in this decision. That is any as in zero, zilch, nada, diddly squat. Apparently it carried some weight at Fordham when they made their decision. The academics who will make this decision in December however, are not particularly concerned about how things go on Saturday afternoons - beyond its impact on fund raising.

Oh, did I mention that this will be about money and...uh...something else...uh...money? Yeah, that's it, money.

[Doc QB]

I tend to agree with you. "We" really make up a small minority of alums from all PL schools who are passionately caught up in trying to see successful football at our schools. While there are a lot of 'casual' fans, the great majority really don't care that much (except for the Lehigh-Lafayette game). So as long as that remains, most everything else football is a general shrug of the shoulders.

Yes, and this is further evidenced by a sub-10,000 attendance figure for a beaurtiful day at Goodman Stadium, home opener, and defending National Champs in the house, a team and school not less than an hour away. Ten years ago this game would have been closer to 16K than under 10K...in '91 we had well over 12K for Dartmouth (w Jay Fiedler) and W&M and Holy Cross back to back weekends. Awesome crowds. Not true anymore. And that sucks.

[jimbo65]

The academics who will make this decision in December however, are not particularly concerned about how things go on Saturday afternoons - beyond its impact on fund raising.

Aint it the truth, academics making university decisions. What is the world becoming? As a Prez of Oklahoma said once, tongue in cheek, "we hope to have a unuversity our fball team can be proud of.

[Doc QB]

No one seems to have posted the score so I will note here that Lehigh was also crushed in the battle of the turnstiles on Saturday. On a gorgeous sun-splashed afternoon when no one owning a dung brown diploma from Fowl U. had any excuse to stay home, only 8,168 showed up at Badman for the traditional thrashing of the Squawk. Meanwhile, up in Amherst, the Minutemen put 16,352 fannies in the seats. It would appear that the feathered faithful have deserted in droves and will require some sort of miracle resurrection to return. The Nova bunch didn't help much. They get poor crowds at home and even worse on the road. This will, of course, change drastically when they join the Big Least, particularly in that Philadelphia market which just loves college football. But I digress,...

Carney...I actually duplicated your post, my bad. But I agree, we used to put more a$$es in the seats for contests such as this.

[Franks Tanks]

You are, as usual, on the right page, Rich. The $1 million is a bit large, but is ball parky. In addition, the College would have to match the football scholarships with something similar for women. (Until now, need based aid for football payers was theoretically the same aid offered to every incoming freshman and did not set off any Title IX alarms.) My guesstimate - and it is a total WAG on my part - is that football scholarships would cost Lafayette something in the $1,2-$1.5 million per year range. That is not a once and done expenditure. It is year in and year out. At the moment there is no way to expand the student body (approximately 2,400) and grab some extra cash that way, so one is hard pressed to see how they cover this. It looks like a lot of lost tuition revenue to me. Money games would not make much of a dent in that they would yield only $300,000-$500,000 per game minus expenses. There would be further rebellion by the tuition paying public (parents of high school seniors) who would see yet another way that the academy is frittering away the $50,000+ that it costs to attend these patriot League institutions.

There is no obvious reason for Lafayette to vote "Yes."

Right on target Carney, but two things to consider.

1.) We have stated that we are looking for more full pay regular students. Will this "extra" tuition revenue that comes from this strategy be used to help defray the cost of additional financial aid to athletes?

2.) We have some very generous financial aid programs, such as posse, that aims to attract african-american students to Lafayette. To my knowledge even with this program the school is still a tough sell. Athletic scholarships in football and other womens sports may help us to attract more african-american students athletes and increase our student body diversity while giving our sports teams a hand. In other words this finanical aid may be used anyway, so why not help our athletic programs. In no way do I hope this replaces opportunities for non-athletes to attend Lafayette through this program, but we may be able to sell the scholarship debate as another way to help financially needy and under represented groups to attend Lafayette.

Just random thoughts that may be off base.

[RichH2]

Dont mean to annoy you Bogie and it was not I who posted that issue originally. As I recall from one of the original threads on this topic the budgeting issue was raised and discussed at length. Whether it is correct or not , I do not know. I just thought it was relevant. Sorry if I offended you. Did not intend to do so.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Dont mean to annoy you Bogie and it was not I who posted that issue originally. As I recall from one of the original threads on this topic the budgeting issue was raised and discussed at length. Whether it is correct or not , I do not know. I just thought it was relevant. Sorry if I offended you. Did not intend to do so.

My bad I should not have gone ballistic like that. We'll save it for November OK?

[Go...gate]

Oh goody. That's ONE vote. It will take at least 4.

Take it easy, carney. I'm on your side.

[UncleSam]

Very sad what has happened to Patriot League football, but I'm sure the 'eggheads' are very happy.

[carney2]

Right on target Carney, but two things to consider.

1.) We have stated that we are looking for more full pay regular students. Will this "extra" tuition revenue that comes from this strategy be used to help defray the cost of additional financial aid to athletes?

2.) We have some very generous financial aid programs, such as posse, that aims to attract african-american students to Lafayette. To my knowledge even with this program the school is still a tough sell. Athletic scholarships in football and other womens sports may help us to attract more african-american students athletes and increase our student body diversity while giving our sports teams a hand. In other words this finanical aid may be used anyway, so why not help our athletic programs. In no way do I hope this replaces opportunities for non-athletes to attend Lafayette through this program, but we may be able to sell the scholarship debate as another way to help financially needy and under represented groups to attend Lafayette.

Just random thoughts that may be off base.

Thanks. Just shows to go that there are a few hurricane force winds driving this, but lots of smaller cross breezes that may have a cumulative impact. This is all very complicated. I guess that's why Bruce McCutcheon (Lafayette AD) and Dan Weiss (Lafayette President) get the big bux while we are relegated to these cheap seats.

[carney2]

Very sad what has happened to Patriot League football, but I'm sure the 'eggheads' are very happy.

Sorry, Unc, I get your point, but there are not any happy "eggheads." Faculties - particularly faculties at private schools - have been against the athletic 2,000 pound gorilla since before Knute Rockne donned his first leather helmet. Nothing's changed. Call it resource envy. The "eggheads" in the administrations are also unhappy because they are stuck in the middle and have to keep fighting this fight generation after generation. All of these ships have sailed and are apparently not coming back to port. In 100 years all "eggheads" will still be unhappy - and all of the folks like us who, for whatever reason, love the athletics of alma mater, will be unhappy with the "eggheads."

[RichH2]

They are just so fragile those eggheads. I love scrambled eggs. The issue as Carney has noted once or maybe twice is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, not academia

[Fordham]

Is the issue really cost or is it perceived cost?

Also, if some of the big rollers who built that beautiful stadium wanted to mind the gap (a huge if, I know), would LC be an unequivocal 'yes'?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Why is it that the schools are all looking at football as only a money losing proposition? Granted, if attendance stays low, it will likely continue to be a financial drain, but there are plenty of FCS teams for whom football is source of considerable revenue.

Increased competitiveness could help increase turnout which could help turn the programs into money makers instead of money losers.

[blukeys]

You are where we were thirty-three years ago when, with need-based aid, high academic standards but no AI, Fred Dunlap put Colgate in the Division I (the whole division) Top 20.

That would be 1977 correct???

[DFW HOYA]

Originally Posted by Go...gate : "You are where we were thirty-three years ago when, with need-based aid, high academic standards but no AI, Fred Dunlap put Colgate in the Division I (the whole division) Top 20."

Which echoes my general criticism of the acadmeic index and its relationship to scholarships. Fred Dunlap was able to build a team based on the recruits he had, while today's recruiting lists are all about coaches building a statistical bell curve to match SAT's and GPA's against a moving target. These teams can add scholarships tomorrow, but if it's still dependent on the bell curve, they still can't recruit effectively against a Furman or a Villanova.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross in 1987 :http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/holy_cross/yearly_results.php?year=1985

was better than Colgate in 1977:http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/colgate/yearly_results.php?year=1975

my biased opinion anyway, makes for a good argument....regardless, both programs are a shell of what they once were...very sad.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Holy Cross in 1987 :http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/holy_cross/yearly_results.php?year=1985

was better than Colgate in 1977:http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/colgate/yearly_results.php?year=1975

my biased opinion anyway, makes for a good argument....regardless, both programs are a shell of what they once were...very sad.

But both were playing largely the same schedule as they play today. Recall that Rutgers was essentially a Patriot League team then.

[Sader87]

But both were playing largely the same schedule as they play today. Recall that Rutgers was essentially a Patriot League team then.

Yes and no Bogie. Rutgers wasn't "Big East" but they were playing some pretty tough schools in '77...Penn St, Temple, Tulane etc. they were definitely a notch above above HC, Colgate, Villanova, the Ivies etc. at that point. That was a very good win for the Red Raiders in '77 but I still think HC was more dominant overall in '87.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/bigeast/rutgers/yearly_results.php?year=1975

[ngineer]

Why is it that the schools are all looking at football as only a money losing proposition? Granted, if attendance stays low, it will likely continue to be a financial drain, but there are plenty of FCS teams for whom football is source of considerable revenue.

Increased competitiveness could help increase turnout which could help turn the programs into money makers instead of money losers.

Not that simple. Over the past 10-15 years, Lehigh has been undergoing a cultural change. Moreso than the shift that occured in 1971 by going coed. A big emphasis has been put on becoming more 'international' in focus. The old 'fraternity' feeling that many felt at Lehigh (and I suspect Lafayette and others) is long gone. There a ton of students now who have no interest in football or in being "rah, rah" as it is "so unintellectual". Student attendance at basketball games is pathetic, and seats are available in the student section for several wrestling matches. The University has not made it easier for students either with tough measures and harrassment causing many not to bother with going over the mountain. There are so many "other things" to do today, whereas, in the 1970's going to the game was the only thing to do on campus. And, yes, to also put out a mediocre product over the past few years does not help matters. I am sure we have lost the 'casual' fan who would come to Goodman 10 years ago to see the, then, juggernaut; to be part of "it". When the cycle turns, as we now have, those people will have better things to do. My guess is that no more than 2,000 students attended the game based upon scanning the student section and endzone and taking into account others spread out elsewhere. That would be about 40% of the student body. My estimate is that back in '70's approximately 75% of the student body attended (of course, the stadium was on campus and an easy roll down the Mountain, but then, they made it over to Goodman in the late 90's and early 00's). Bottom line. Many different issues. Not a simple answer.

[carney2]

Is the issue really cost or is it perceived cost?

Also, if some of the big rollers who built that beautiful stadium wanted to mind the gap (a huge if, I know), would LC be an unequivocal 'yes'?

It is real dollars and cents, and many more dollars than cents. I refer you to my post no. 78 of this thread for some details. As for big bux alums digging deep for alma mater, this isn't like the new stadium which was once and done/build it and they will come. This will be a real cost year after year into perpetuity. Not many folks gonna pony that up. Assuming that the alumni as a whole are currently giving about as much as they can, the only way this is funded by alums is if the money is diverted from the philosophy dept. and the sociology dept. and the Greater Alma Mater Building Fund, and... Tell me how that's going to fly.

[carney2]

Why is it that the schools are all looking at football as only a money losing proposition? Granted, if attendance stays low, it will likely continue to be a financial drain, but there are plenty of FCS teams for whom football is source of considerable revenue.

Increased competitiveness could help increase turnout which could help turn the programs into money makers instead of money losers.

Plenty? Throw out the top half of the top 4 FBS conferences and name 25. I dare you.

Getting even more on target here, I defy you to name 20 FCS schools that are consistently* "making money" out of football. Here we go;

Delaware
Montana
Appalachian State
um
Delaware - Nope, already said that
um

*Don't tell me about your sellouts last year and this. Give me a ten year history of CONSISTENTLY making money out of football.

[Sader87]

Nobody at the FCS level makes money...the real question is should we have football at that level or drop it altogether? We can't drop to D3 football and keep D1 hoop per order of the NCAA. My argument is why not have the best FCS football we can? This "never, never land" of non-scholarship D1 football is just ridiculous on so many levels.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can't remember the source, but I seem to remember that the official number of "money-making" FCS programs was 2% or something like that. Being that 2% of 125 FCS teams is 2.75, when you say Delaware, App State and Montana, you win.

Mind, that was just last year.

[DFW HOYA]

My argument is why not have the best FCS football we can? This "never, never land" of non-scholarship D1 football is just ridiculous on so many levels.

But didn't Holy Cross help invent it?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One of my pet peeves is treating any collegiate program - football, women's rowing, philosophy, whatever - as something that is supposed to be a net money generator. Many things about colleges and universities are not about dollars and cents on the balance sheet. Lehigh and Lafayette could pull the collective plugs on their football program and "save money", but something truly magic would be lost if that ever happened. If you think Lehigh or Lafayette is disconnected with football, imagine it for a second without it.

Football at the FCS level is judged by the ridiculous bar that FBS programs have set where it is expected to be self-sufficient and give money back to the university - something which only occurs at a dozen schools, tops, and you probably know who they are. All of those schools long ago gave up any principles they had left to go after the money. Furthermore, these financial goals are never set for, say, the school's history department. If you did, they certainly wouldn't last long.

Playing football at a PL school is a part of the educational mission of the university, not a money machine. Therefore, it shouldn't be a part of this discussion.

[Sader87]

But didn't Holy Cross help invent it?

Ouch...yes we did...we also made the sound decision NOT to join the Big East in basketball. It's a great school but we don't always think these things out unfortunately.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So, to recap: this thread started talking about the PL giving up their autobid since we stunk up the joint against the CAA and Furman.

DFW Hoya chimed in to remind us that Georgetown turned over the ball twice against the Leopards, seeming to get ready to remind us that Georgetown can't win big games.

Then Georgetown did win, this proving the hypothesis it it wasn't just Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate and Holy Cross that stunk, but Lafayette did too.

Then it became "boy, we really need scholarships to compete". Then, carney helpfully added that money and money and money was the reason it's going to be tricky.

Bogie showed up, and talked Title IX, and got upset.

Now it's ended about how all the students of today don't really care about football, and how Holy Cross' 1987 team would have done against Fred Dunlap's 1977 squad - who, incidentally, came from Lehigh, who won the D-II national championship in '77 against Jacksonville State, who upset Ole Miss last weekend.

I'm beginning to see why the PL presidents can't decide on anything. If the rabid, donation-making fans on this PL board cannot focus and talk decide that 1) scholarships are necessary to continue to compete in FCS, 2) that they will not mean cheapening academic standards (and could actually increase them,) and 3) that it is worthwhile for the schools to find a way - make a way - to preserve these traditions that are all over a century old... why are we here??? How can presidents decide if the PL fans are not united on these three points?

[OL FU]

So, to recap: this thread started talking about the PL giving up their autobid since we stunk up the joint against the CAA and Furman.

DFW Hoya chimed in to remind us that Georgetown turned over the ball twice against the Leopards, seeming to get ready to remind us that Georgetown can't win big games.

Then Georgetown did win, this proving the hypothesis it it wasn't just Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate and Holy Cross that stunk, but Lafayette did too.

Then it became "boy, we really need scholarships to compete". Then, carney helpfully added that money and money and money was the reason it's going to be tricky.

Bogie showed up, and talked Title IX, and got upset.

Now it's ended about how all the students of today don't really care about football, and how Holy Cross' 1987 team would have done against Fred Dunlap's 1977 squad - who, incidentally, came from Lehigh, who won the D-II national championship in '77 against Jacksonville State, who upset Ole Miss last weekend.

I'm beginning to see why the PL presidents can't decide on anything. If the rabid, donation-making fans on this PL board cannot focus and talk decide that 1) scholarships are necessary to continue to compete in FCS, 2) that they will not mean cheapening academic standards (and could actually increase them,) and 3) that it is worthwhile for the schools to find a way - make a way - to preserve these traditions that are all over a century old... why are we here??? How can presidents decide if the PL fans are not united on these three points?

I guess you couldn't call me a PL fan as such, but I certainly can agree that 1 through 3 are correct. I will add a fourth which is part of 3. A strong PL is good for FCS football. I have always considered FCS football more than just cost containment athletics. I have also considered FCS a place where a school can find success in football without giving up its academic principles. What better conference than the PL to make that point. I hope the PL Presidents understand that also.

[danefan]

I can't remember the source, but I seem to remember that the official number of "money-making" FCS programs was 2% or something like that. Being that 2% of 125 FCS teams is 2.75, when you say Delaware, App State and Montana, you win.

Mind, that was just last year.

The Big Sky comish said in his news conference on Cal Poly UCD expansion that there are only 14 teams in the entire DI (FCS and FBS) that generate a profit on football.

But as you say - you can't quantify the intangibles football adds to a school. Just ask ODU or Lamar or Ga.St. fans/students/alumni.

[letsgopards04]

Now it's ended about how all the students of today don't really care about football

I think worse that unless you go to a big school the students don't care about the athletic program. People don't go to an FCS school (barring Montana, App, Del) for the quality of its football program unless they are gonna play on said team. With so much other crap going on sports take a backseat especially among younger generations. I am 28 and a huge sports fan but about 10% of my friends share this feeling. The rest are at best casual observers. There is just so much more going on that those of my generation would sleep in or play video games than breathe in some fresh air at a game.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Now it's ended about how all the students of today don't really care about football

I think worse that unless you go to a big school the students don't care about the athletic program. People don't go to an FCS school (barring Montana, App, Del) for the quality of its football program unless they are gonna play on said team. With so much other crap going on sports take a backseat especially among younger generations. I am 28 and a huge sports fan but about 10% of my friends share this feeling. The rest are at best casual observers. There is just so much more going on that those of my generation would sleep in or play video games than breathe in some fresh air at a game.

Goes back to the decine of the social order. When I was at Lafayette, there was one television in the dorm, not in every room. Video games were at the pac-man and mario bros. level. 80% of men were in a fraternity. The whole fraternity - every one of them - went to the game, and so did their girlfriends. That's just the way it was. Then you cleaned up and hosted the alumni back at the house in a cordial, private setting and made their favorite drinks. Out came the checkbooks.

I saw nothing whatsoever wrong with this way of doing things.

[Pard4Life]

So, to recap: this thread started talking about the PL giving up their autobid since we stunk up the joint against the CAA and Furman.

DFW Hoya chimed in to remind us that Georgetown turned over the ball twice against the Leopards, seeming to get ready to remind us that Georgetown can't win big games.

Then Georgetown did win, this proving the hypothesis it it wasn't just Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate and Holy Cross that stunk, but Lafayette did too.

Then it became "boy, we really need scholarships to compete". Then, carney helpfully added that money and money and money was the reason it's going to be tricky.

Bogie showed up, and talked Title IX, and got upset.

Now it's ended about how all the students of today don't really care about football, and how Holy Cross' 1987 team would have done against Fred Dunlap's 1977 squad - who, incidentally, came from Lehigh, who won the D-II national championship in '77 against Jacksonville State, who upset Ole Miss last weekend.

I'm beginning to see why the PL presidents can't decide on anything. If the rabid, donation-making fans on this PL board cannot focus and talk decide that 1) scholarships are necessary to continue to compete in FCS, 2) that they will not mean cheapening academic standards (and could actually increase them,) and 3) that it is worthwhile for the schools to find a way - make a way - to preserve these traditions that are all over a century old... why are we here??? How can presidents decide if the PL fans are not united on these three points?

LFN, The PL presidents do not care what we here on the board think. They are an oligarchy… coupled with the respective BOTs and in the case of Lafayette, the faculty. Did anybody learn the first time around with basketballs scholarships?

It is absolutely, 100% about money… Lafayette is opposed to scholarships because the faculty is opposed, and likely segments of the administration are opposed. Tavani has cited precisely this fact. When we are trying to expand the faculty, facing a shrinking endowment, and trying to admit more students who can pay their tuition in full because of less available financial aid, will there be additional scholarship aid for football players? It is all about priorities… Colgate and Lehigh might not have some of these priorities, but Lafayette does. So, how can the PL be united?

Title IX compliance will be an issue if we are already not giving out the same number of equivalencies in women sports as football (which is probably true). Automatically, you are going to have to set aside more dedicated financial aid (i.e. athletic scholarship) dollars in admissions. Again, it’s all about priorities. Will the administration and faculty live with this fact when we are currently short-changing academic students who cannot afford to attend Lafayette?

Scholarships are absolutely necessary for us to compete long-term. We might get lucky, like last year’s flash in the pan with Randolph, Skelton, Holy Cross, and Lafayette seasons. All of the PL fans are for scholarships. Much of the alumni are in favor. But the people holding the levers of power are either indifferent, do not care, or are opposed on ideological, budgetary, and/or academic grounds… and have other priorities in mind.

The sick and sad irony of this situation that it could be the death knell of the Patriot League as a credible league and make that long pursued quest for identity, at least on the Lafayette end, to have been in vain. How are schools identified? Athletic leagues. You are the company that you keep. It is tangible and visible, unlike niche academic program alliances. Otherwise, it’s just following the U.S. New and World Report rankings and tiers to determine any sort relevancy or identity. Individual merits do not apply. Try to think of Lafayette on its own and automatically, one will try to identify its associates (i.e. its neighborhood). The Rothkopf experiment was to try to shift our identity to D-III. It was rejected. What happens to our identity when the PL falters? Football scholarships ARE a priority because it will help preserve our identity and our neighborhood.

Thank heaven that Bucknell’s president is from Stanford and that Weiss will comply with the ruling if it is a ‘yes.’

[Pard4Life]

Now it's ended about how all the students of today don't really care about football

I think worse that unless you go to a big school the students don't care about the athletic program. People don't go to an FCS school (barring Montana, App, Del) for the quality of its football program unless they are gonna play on said team. With so much other crap going on sports take a backseat especially among younger generations. I am 28 and a huge sports fan but about 10% of my friends share this feeling. The rest are at best casual observers. There is just so much more going on that those of my generation would sleep in or play video games than breathe in some fresh air at a game.

It's all about relevancy and branding. ESPN shows up at Purdue, not Lafayette. Students there know it's important to show up to games because it's something relevant and 'important' in society... you are talked about every week on TV, you play at 8pm on a national network (ABC), and you are fighting for a national title... the one the media and everyone else cares about. Every guy I knew at Lafayette, except the artistic ones, loved sports. However, hardly any of them went to a game aside from Lehigh football, and even that was viewed lacksidasically. However, it is somewhat different for basketball because there is relevancy and branding involved. Win the PL, have exclusivity on ESPN for two hours, play on CBS against Duke. Take Bucknell... same demographic and attitude as Lafayette students. They beat Kansas, ranked in the Top 25, poof... Skoja is stocked with students for every game.

But back to football, Lafayette has improved dramatically since we started winning constantly and have developed exposure. Many students actually show-up. As for branding, the "Frank" is an excellent example (they should also put one in Farnion and Wawa)... Coke, world brand, on a poster board with Lafayette's coach... hmm, hey maybe they are really something to care about. The only way the football program will see an outpouring of support is if we compile consecutive double-digit win seasons, win a national title, or pull an Appy and beat Penn State or Rutgers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The only way the football program will see an outpouring of support is if we compile consecutive double-digit win seasons, win a national title, or pull an Appy and beat Penn State or Rutgers.

And it all comes back to scholarships. It's a heck of a lot more likely to get an invite to play Penn State or Rutgers if you're a bowl counter, and the way to become a bowl counter is to... offer at least 60 scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

And it all comes back to scholarships. It's a heck of a lot more likely to get an invite to play Penn State or Rutgers if you're a bowl counter, and the way to become a bowl counter is to... offer at least 60 scholarships.

Which is why the PL will likely announce some sort of "up to six new scholarships a year" solution. The league really doesn't want to compete with the Penn States of the world, but this gives the coaches something to recruit with, the Ivies won't revolt, and the increased cost is covered over an extended period.

Of course, it also sends Fordham walking out the door.

[Bogus Megapardus]

And it all comes back to scholarships. It's a heck of a lot more likely to get an invite to play Penn State or Rutgers if you're a bowl counter, and the way to become a bowl counter is to... offer at least 60 scholarships.

I have a feeling that PL teams will have a relatively easy time getting payday games if we become qualifiers. We're something of a noble curiosity.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Which is why the PL will likely announce some sort of "up to six new scholarships a year" solution. The league really doesn't want to compete with the Penn States of the world, but this gives the coaches something to recruit with, the Ivies won't revolt, and the increased cost is covered over an extended period.

Of course, it also sends Fordham walking out the door.

I have been an advocate of either staying need-based only, or going with the full 63 scholarships - with no middle ground. But maybe there's a hidden benefit to allowing "just a few" scholarships.

First, it allows Georgetown to stay. As much as I want Fordham in as well I get the impression that they hate the PL so universally that they're gone no matter what. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

But it also evokes a carrot-and-stick effect I suppose. Armed with "some" scholarship money the coaches can go out and recruit for a "scholarship school" and tell every single recruit, "yeah, if you're as good as we think we can give you the ride. But only the best will get 'full' scholarships because the rules limit them. Are you one of the best, young feller? BTW we still have a need-to-grant system for most of our players so why not commit now? Either way we'd love to have you. And yes - finally it's OK to tell everyone you got a ride at a PL school."

Maybe that's worth something, I dunno.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I have a feeling that PL teams will have a relatively easy time getting payday games if we become qualifiers. We're something of a noble curiosity.

That's why I was so interested in Army/Navy's stance on all of this - and if they are, indeed, interested in PL schools becoming counters. If all the PL teams get somewhat regular games out of it, then that helps the financial side of the argument - bus ride games, guarantees, and a great experience for the kids playing.

Adding to this, check this out:

Holy Cross/BC
Fordham/Army
Lehigh/Rutgers
Lafayette/Rutgers
Colgate/Syracuse
Bucknell/Penn State
Georgetown/Virginia

All of these are real contested games in the past - some of which were really big rivalries, and all of which were an easy bus ride for the schools. It's real easy to see the PL trade on their history to get more of these types of games. More of those games will stoke alumni (and student) interest, too.

Again, though, without scholarships...

[carney2]

That's why I was so interested in Army/Navy's stance on all of this - and if they are, indeed, interested in PL schools becoming counters. If all the PL teams get somewhat regular games out of it, then that helps the financial side of the argument - bus ride games, guarantees, and a great experience for the kids playing.

Adding to this, check this out:

Holy Cross/BC
Fordham/Army
Lehigh/Rutgers
Lafayette/Rutgers
Colgate/Syracuse
Bucknell/Penn State
Georgetown/Virginia

All of these are real contested games in the past - some of which were really big rivalries, and all of which were an easy bus ride for the schools. It's real easy to see the PL trade on their history to get more of these types of games. More of those games will stoke alumni (and student) interest, too.

Again, though, without scholarships...

I already have the betting line on that Bucknell-Penn State game.

[carney2]

I have been an advocate of either staying need-based only, or going with the full 63 scholarships - with no middle ground. But maybe there's a hidden benefit to allowing "just a few" scholarships.

First, it allows Georgetown to stay. As much as I want Fordham in as well I get the impression that they hate the PL so universally that they're gone no matter what. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

But it also evokes a carrot-and-stick effect I suppose. Armed with "some" scholarship money the coaches can go out and recruit for a "scholarship school" and tell every single recruit, "yeah, if you're as good as we think we can give you the ride. But only the best will get 'full' scholarships because the rules limit them. Are you one of the best, young feller? BTW we still have a need-to-grant system for most of our players so why not commit now? Either way we'd love to have you. And yes - finally it's OK to tell everyone you got a ride at a PL school."

Maybe that's worth something, I dunno.

I know, I know, Bogie, it's getting complicated and it's difficult to keep all of the facts and arguments in front of you when you expound on one piece of this or another. Perhaps one of us could publish some Cliff Notes on Patriot League Scholarships. Anyway, if you had the Cliff Notes you would notice in an early paragraph

"The NCAA requires the opponent to have at least 57 scholarships* to be a counter in a game vs. an FCS school."

*Even Cliff can't figure out how equivalencies figure into this, particularly when combined with scholarships.

[carney2]

Lafayette has improved dramatically since we started winning constantly and have developed exposure. Many students actually show-up.

Huh?!!!!!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I already have the betting line on that Bucknell-Penn State game.

Bucknell plays Penn State in virtually every other sport besides football and the Bison beat them consistently - and handily. I imagine that the overall record in other sports is so tilted in Bucknell's favor that the difference would outweigh any current lopsided football score by an order of magnitude.

So what does that tell you about the current state of affairs in "college athletics?"

[ngineer]

Don't foreget our Lehigh-Penn State Tradition, LFN. One of the hottest wrestling rivalries in NCAA, plus we are still in their record book as having handed the Nits their biggest loss, 106-0. Would make for some great 'old school' tradition stories. We regularly play them in a lot of other sports, now: Basketball, wrestling, soccer, lacrosse, baseball, etc..Getting to the necessary equivaliencies opens up a lot of options...and also Temple, now that they are 'respected' again.xsmiley_wix

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't foreget our Lehigh-Penn State Tradition, LFN. One of the hottest wrestling rivalries in NCAA, plus we are still in their record book as having handed the Nits their biggest loss, 106-0. Would make for some great 'old school' tradition stories. We regularly play them in a lot of other sports, now: Basketball, wrestling, soccer, lacrosse, baseball, etc..Getting to the necessary equivaliencies opens up a lot of options...and also Temple, now that they are 'respected' again.xsmiley_wix

Thanks, ng. Army, Navy, Temple, Penn State, Rutgers, Syracuse, BC, Virginia. Add Maryland, UConn and Pitt - that's ten teams, all mostly within busing distance, that are potential money games for every PL member.

[Doc QB]

Goes back to the decine of the social order. When I was at Lafayette, there was one television in the dorm, not in every room. Video games were at the pac-man and mario bros. level. 80% of men were in a fraternity. The whole fraternity - every one of them - went to the game, and so did their girlfriends. That's just the way it was. Then you cleaned up and hosted the alumni back at the house in a cordial, private setting and made their favorite drinks. Out came the checkbooks.

I saw nothing whatsoever wrong with this way of doing things.

Bogus, I entirely agree, with the caveat that after the alums and checkbooks went home, the night REALLY got interesting.

And I would be happy to entertain/host you at my 'ol fraternity stomping grounds on the Hill at LU after next year's game at Goodman for old times sake.

[Franks Tanks]

Bogus, I entirely agree, with the caveat that after the alums and checkbooks went home, the night REALLY got interesting.

And I would be happy to entertain/host you at my 'ol fraternity stomping grounds on the Hill at LU after next year's game at Goodman for old times sake.

I remember one year we had a 50 or so year old alum hang out at the house all night. The guy was playing pong, hitting on chics, and generaly having an awesome time. Unfortunantly at least half of Lafayette fraternity alums no longer have their house to return to.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus, I entirely agree, with the caveat that after the alums and checkbooks went home, the night REALLY got interesting.

And I would be happy to entertain/host you at my 'ol fraternity stomping grounds on the Hill at LU after next year's game at Goodman for old times sake.

Thanks! I'd enjoy that.


I remember one year we had a 50 or so year old alum hang out at the house all night. The guy was playing pong, hitting on chics, and generaly having an awesome time. Unfortunantly at least half of Lafayette fraternity alums no longer have their house to return to.

At one time I believe there were nineteen houses. There are now five. I know for sure we had 50 year old alums hanging out and playing beer pong and drinking Jack and PBRs. That's part of what we were there for. After, you're a brother for life, aren't you?

[Go...gate]

That would be 1977 correct???

You got it - and you beat us.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross in 1987 :http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/holy_cross/yearly_results.php?year=1985

was better than Colgate in 1977:http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/colgate/yearly_results.php?year=1975

my biased opinion anyway, makes for a good argument....regardless, both programs are a shell of what they once were...very sad.

Maybe. This is why I take the position that 1987 Holy Cross is arguably the greatest I-AA team ever.

[Go...gate]

So, to recap: this thread started talking about the PL giving up their autobid since we stunk up the joint against the CAA and Furman.

DFW Hoya chimed in to remind us that Georgetown turned over the ball twice against the Leopards, seeming to get ready to remind us that Georgetown can't win big games.

Then Georgetown did win, this proving the hypothesis it it wasn't just Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate and Holy Cross that stunk, but Lafayette did too.

Then it became "boy, we really need scholarships to compete". Then, carney helpfully added that money and money and money was the reason it's going to be tricky.

Bogie showed up, and talked Title IX, and got upset.

Now it's ended about how all the students of today don't really care about football, and how Holy Cross' 1987 team would have done against Fred Dunlap's 1977 squad - who, incidentally, came from Lehigh, who won the D-II national championship in '77 against Jacksonville State, who upset Ole Miss last weekend.

I'm beginning to see why the PL presidents can't decide on anything. If the rabid, donation-making fans on this PL board cannot focus and talk decide that 1) scholarships are necessary to continue to compete in FCS, 2) that they will not mean cheapening academic standards (and could actually increase them,) and 3) that it is worthwhile for the schools to find a way - make a way - to preserve these traditions that are all over a century old... why are we here??? How can presidents decide if the PL fans are not united on these three points?

He coached at Lehigh, but graduated from Colgate in 1950. He was a freshman in Andy Kerr's last year as Head Coach.

[Go...gate]

I guess you couldn't call me a PL fan as such, but I certainly can agree that 1 through 3 are correct. I will add a fourth which is part of 3. A strong PL is good for FCS football. I have always considered FCS football more than just cost containment athletics. I have also considered FCS a place where a school can find success in football without giving up its academic principles. What better conference than the PL to make that point. I hope the PL Presidents understand that also.

Amen.

[letsgopards04]

It's all about relevancy and branding. ESPN shows up at Purdue, not Lafayette. Students there know it's important to show up to games because it's something relevant and 'important' in society... you are talked about every week on TV, you play at 8pm on a national network (ABC), and you are fighting for a national title... the one the media and everyone else cares about. Every guy I knew at Lafayette, except the artistic ones, loved sports. However, hardly any of them went to a game aside from Lehigh football, and even that was viewed lacksidasically. However, it is somewhat different for basketball because there is relevancy and branding involved. Win the PL, have exclusivity on ESPN for two hours, play on CBS against Duke. Take Bucknell... same demographic and attitude as Lafayette students. They beat Kansas, ranked in the Top 25, poof... Skoja is stocked with students for every game.

But back to football, Lafayette has improved dramatically since we started winning constantly and have developed exposure. Many students actually show-up. As for branding, the "Frank" is an excellent example (they should also put one in Farnion and Wawa)... Coke, world brand, on a poster board with Lafayette's coach... hmm, hey maybe they are really something to care about. The only way the football program will see an outpouring of support is if we compile consecutive double-digit win seasons, win a national title, or pull an Appy and beat Penn State or Rutgers.

When I visited Bucknell when looking at schools I got a different vibe all-together. I saw a much more smart jock culture with lots of sports fan types with active people. At Lafayette (my fraternity included) I saw less of this and much more of a 'when I am not studying constantly I am staying in and doing something'. Much less caring about the school community.

[letsgopards04]

Thanks! I'd enjoy that.



At one time I believe there were nineteen houses. There are now five. I know for sure we had 50 year old alums hanging out and playing beer pong and drinking Jack and PBRs. That's part of what we were there for. After, you're a brother for life, aren't you?

Lafayette has changed so much even since 2004 when I graduated that sometimes I feel that I don't have a house to go to because of the newer brothers. They are so non-sociable that I think they actively avoid conversations with real people which makes me avoid returning to campus as much as I should. But I think this is the type of student that College Hill wants these days. Work hard but please don't play hard.

[Sader87]

I remember one year we had a 50 or so year old alum hang out at the house all night. The guy was playing pong, hitting on chics, and generaly having an awesome time. Unfortunantly at least half of Lafayette fraternity alums no longer have their house to return to.

Substitute Caro St for frat houses (no frats at HC) and that was me at a few of the Homecomings at HC this past decade.

Sadly, it's a culture that's dying out throughout the PL and the Ancient 8.

[Pard4Life]

Lafayette has changed so much even since 2004 when I graduated that sometimes I feel that I don't have a house to go to because of the newer brothers. They are so non-sociable that I think they actively avoid conversations with real people which makes me avoid returning to campus as much as I should. But I think this is the type of student that College Hill wants these days. Work hard but please don't play hard.

Did you try texting them?

I agree with the lameness factor... they just want everyone to sit on their hands and do innocent things like dance-a-thons.

[Franks Tanks]

Did you try texting them?

I agree with the lameness factor... they just want everyone to sit on their hands and do innocent things like dance-a-thons.

Freakin losers. Don't these kids understand the subtle pleasures that can only be obtained by drinking copious amounts of light beer out of plastic cups on a pong table? Pretty much how I spent my free weekends.

[ngineer]

I remember one year we had a 50 or so year old alum hang out at the house all night. The guy was playing pong, hitting on chics, and generaly having an awesome time. Unfortunantly at least half of Lafayette fraternity alums no longer have their house to return to.

Those were great times when guys from the '50's came back when were there in the 70's...The beer flowed like the water and the air was 'sweet perfume'...****, we were lucky!xsmiley_wix

[Pard4Life]

You better not be referring to Natty...

[Franks Tanks]

You better not be referring to Natty...

All day long.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Did you try texting them?

I agree with the lameness factor... they just want everyone to sit on their hands and do innocent things like dance-a-thons.

Ahhh, the days of manufacturing Schedule II injectable narcotics in the chem lab at 2:00 AM; of low-grade chlorine pipe bombs; permanent dye-filled water balloon launchers . . . . you can't even run a pledge over the bridge for hot Jimmy Dogs any longer. What's the world coming to?

[letsgopards04]

Ahhh, the days of manufacturing Schedule II injectable narcotics in the chem lab at 2:00 AM; of low-grade chlorine pipe bombs; permanent dye-filled water balloon launchers . . . . you can't even run a pledge over the bridge for hot Jimmy Dogs any longer. What's the world coming to?

Wow! We were crazier than these new bloods but nothing like pre-Rothkopf Lafayette.

[letsgopards04]

All day long.

**** right! But the next question is Ice or Light?

[Go...gate]

Colgate was like this on the rare home FB Saturdays back in the day. Everybody, including the faculty, went to the game and the school spirit was unbelievable.

[letsgopards04]

BTW that Lehigh banner on every page makes me sick. Come on Leopards we should buy a month.

[Franks Tanks]

**** right! But the next question is Ice or Light?

Light. Ice puts one out of comission too early.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Has anyone ever noticed that the craziest years of the school that you went to are inevitably right before you got there?

Though that party bus I rode to Lafayette in 1991... xrulesx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Has anyone ever noticed that the craziest years of the school that you went to are inevitably right before you got there?



By most accounts they were precisely when I was there. I'm fortunate to have survived.

[crusader11]

[B]

Sadly, it's a culture that's dying out throughout the PL and the Ancient 8.

The culture is still here at Holy Cross, you just have to go to the right places.

[carney2]

BTW that Lehigh banner on every page makes me sick. Come on Leopards we should buy a month.

If we don't buy THIS month and get rid of that dung brown monstrosity, count me out.

[Sader87]

The culture is still here at Holy Cross, you just have to go to the right places.

I thought they all got torn down....

Actually the best part of the Patriot League (for me) was the post-game frat parties...Lafayette and Colgate especially (never made it to Bucknell during my under-grad years)...Dartmouth for non-league frat parties.

[crusader11]

I thought they all got torn down....


Many did. The scene is now on College street.

[Sader87]

Many did. The scene is now on College street.

Duly noted...see you 10/2 for Homecoming.

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/resources/2007/09/siren.gif

Ummm . . . .

"The concession by the NCAA would be to allow games between the Ivy League and FBS teams to count toward bowl eligibility. . . . The Ivy League is not an athletic scholarship league, so at this point it wouldn't be a bowl eligible game for the FBS opponent. And unless the NCAA grants a waiver for games against the Ivy League to count toward bowl eligibility -- which is pending as we speak -- there would be little incentive for an FBS team to schedule one of Ancient Eight."

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/149891154

Wavier? Are you talkin' WAVIER? What about US?

I'm calling BS here . . .



-

[LEHIGH61]

Curley on his a--. Where's Mo

[Go...gate]

And what has our conference been doing? Not much.

[Gater]

I see this as nothing but a positive for The Patriot League--provided we don't apply for and get the same waiver since that would take away one big arguement for scholarships. The hope is that TPL wouldn't apply for it or get it since we offer offer scholarships in other sports. The real hope is that the Ivies feel that TPL is getting scholarships and this is a way for them to continue to compete and or win in recruiting wars.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

2-4 in OOC play today....

[Sader87]

We absolutely suck....I freaking hate the Patriot League.

[Franks Tanks]

We absolutely suck....I freaking hate the Patriot League.

You guys started it. Good job.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You guys started it. Good job.

They were very good for about 6 years twenty years ago and again solid for the last 3 or 4 years. Besides that they've been an average to below average football program for the better part of 50 years.

[Franks Tanks]

They were very good for about 6 years twenty years ago and again solid for the last 3 or 4 years. Besides that they've been an average to below average football program for the better part of 50 years.


The bulk of that win streak was scholly players vs. non-scholly. They also had one of the best coaches in PL history,so it was a perfect storm.

The PL is as weak as we have been in about 15 years and its not fun.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I'm just the messenger. You are soo out of touch with reality.

40's 47-41-8
50's 56-41-3
60's 42-45-4
70's 37-68-3

Equals 182-195-18

Holy Cross was really good in the 30's and 40's. Don't act like HC was playing national powers when they were 1-A. They were playing IL teams and the smaller regional 1-A teams post 1950.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

1980
Lehigh as a 1-AA
Colgate 17-17 T
Maine 37-6 W
Penn 35-6 W
Delaware 27-20 W
Army 24-24 T
Davidson 49-14 W
Bucknell 13-0 W
JMU 31-14 W
URI 23-10 W
Northeastern 42-19 W
Lafayette 32-0 W

1980
Holy Cross as a mighty 1-A school
URI 21-14 W
Army 7-28 L
Harvard 13-14 L
Darmouth 17-6 W
Colgate 7-38 L
UCONN 17-18 L
Brown 3-21 L
Columbia 26-0 W
UMASS 13-17 L
Villanova 13-45 L
BC 26-27 L

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Patriot League goes 0'fer again in OOC play.

Fordham loses to D2 Assumption
Lehigh to UNH
Colgate to Syracuse
Lafayette to Princeton

[Go...gate]

Patriot League goes 0'fer again in OOC play.

Fordham loses to D2 Assumption
Lehigh to UNH
Colgate to Syracuse
Lafayette to Princeton

All were frustrating, but what has happened at Fordham?

[Sader87]

As it exists right now, the league is an absolute JOKE. Embarassing actually.

[Go...gate]

As it exists right now, the league is an absolute JOKE. Embarassing actually.

Again, I would not say it is a joke. These kids practice and play their backsides off every week, and they have to do their schoolwork as well.

The PL is, however, arguably at its weakest point since 1993-94.

[Go...gate]

1980
Lehigh as a 1-AA
Colgate 17-17 T
Maine 37-6 W
Penn 35-6 W
Delaware 27-20 W
Army 24-24 T
Davidson 49-14 W
Bucknell 13-0 W
JMU 31-14 W
URI 23-10 W
Northeastern 42-19 W
Lafayette 32-0 W

1980
Holy Cross as a mighty 1-A school
URI 21-14 W
Army 7-28 L
Harvard 13-14 L
Darmouth 17-6 W
Colgate 7-38 L
UCONN 17-18 L
Brown 3-21 L
Columbia 26-0 W
UMASS 13-17 L
Villanova 13-45 L
BC 26-27 L


The work of the great Neil Wheelright (former Colgate coach) in his final season. Rick Carter came in from Dayton the following year and things really turned around.

[Sader87]

I appaud how hard both the players and coaches work but their results are indeed a JOKE and an embarassment to their predecessors...Colgate and Holy Cross specifically.....shame on both schools for allowing things to get this bad in football.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

The loss to Syracuse isn't anything to be ashamed of, nor is Lehigh to UNH. Lafayette to Princeton raises some eyebrows, but Penn almost took out 'Nova tonight, and from what I hear even Harvard is decent this year. It's a shame the Ivies won't do the tourny or play more OOC games, because it makes it tough to gauge how good they are, but it looks like they actually might be decent this year.

Fordham losing to Assumption is ridiculous. Assumption isn't even in the top 25 of DII, although they are apparently undeated thus far, so maybe they are a DII dark horse? But still, for a team that has designs on joining the CAA (or is that Furman? I can never remember which is which) that is embarrassing.

[ngineer]

Another week of piling evidence on the need to get scholarships. The Lehigh score was not indicative of how dominant UNH was. Our defense is probably going to be taxed for residency status. They actually played hard, but got worn out and banged up. Offense was offensive. I have not idea how we could be the inept. Colvin had a week to prepare and the OL wasn't able to provide any running room. Listening on the radio it was evident how much more athletic UNH is and how the spread between the top conferences has turned into a chasm. The PL Presidents have to make a move in December or it will only get worse.