Big East Football discusses Nova Option

[jstclmet]

Marinatto again dismissed the Internet rumors that Central Florida and Memphis were going to receive invitations to join the conference, but he said that there have been some discussions about Villanova making the jump to Division I-A football and that could be one viable option for the conference to grow without upsetting its 16-team basketball alignment.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10216/1077486-233.stm

[DFW HOYA]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10216/1077486-233.stm

Like his predecessor, John Marinatto doesn't seek to add Georgetown to the conversation, wins and losses notwithstanding.

[Redbird Ray]

Would Nova play at the Linc then? Does Nova have the $$$ to build a new on campus stadium? I suppose you could try and split time with Penn at Franklin Field. Just curious as to how the stadium situation would work out.

If Nova joined Big East football right now I think they could be at least a 5th or 6th place team. Give Nova 22 more scholarships, some time to adjust, and a bigger stadium/better facilities, and they could be right there with Pitt and WV.

[DFW HOYA]

Would Nova play at the Linc then? Does Nova have the $$$ to build a new on campus stadium? I suppose you could try and split time with Penn at Franklin Field. Just curious as to how the stadium situation would work out.

This is the major hurdle. Temple has a long term lease at the Linc and the Big East demands stadium exclusivity for TV deals. Franklin Field is not going to move Penn home dates to accomodate the Big East; and, of course, there is next to no parking around the place and no skyboxes or other common amenities. The soccer stadium in Chester is too small and too far away.

In short, Villanova has the money for scholarships but no available facilities. Georgetown has available facilities (RFK, FedEx Field), but no scholarships.

[danefan]

This is the major hurdle. Temple has a long term lease at the Linc and the Big East demands stadium exclusivity for TV deals. Franklin Field is not going to move Penn home dates to accomodate the Big East; and, of course, there is next to no parking around the place and no skyboxes or other common amenities. The soccer stadium in Chester is too small and too far away.

In short, Villanova has the money for scholarships but no available facilities. Georgetown has available facilities (RFK, FedEx Field), but no scholarships.

Anybody know what Temple's agreement with the Linc is?

I'd have to imagine the Linc would rather have a Big East team play there than Temple. It would definitely increase attendance and generate more money for the stadium.

[49RFootballNow]

Anybody know what Temple's agreement with the Linc is?

I'd have to imagine the Linc would rather have a Big East team play there than Temple. It would definitely increase attendance and generate more money for the stadium.

Seeing how that didn't happen when Temple themselves were in the Big East, I don't see how a much smaller school with a much smaller alumni base will generate more interest and money.

[Jackman]

Temple has a lease until at least 2018. It has often been rumored that giving that lease to Temple, a public university, was quid pro quo for using public money to build the stadium. Word on the street is that the Eagles would rather not have any college football teams playing games at their stadium, other than the Army-Navy game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Realistically, the soccer stadium in Chester is the only option. However, it would need to be expanded (not sure what the capacity is currently: 15,000? 20,000?) and is pretty far from the Villanova campus. And forget having a stadium built in posh Main Line Radnor Township, where real estate is pricey and the locals have zero interest in having FBS football in town.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but short of something crazy like Penn playing games in Chester and Villanova getting Franklin Field, or Temple giving up their lease for whatever reason, the odds are not in their favor.

[henfan]

PPL Stadium in Chester is not large enough for Big East FB. The stadium, which is 18 miles south of Villanova's campus, seats 18.5K. The Linc and Franklin Field don't appear to be realistic options for VU for the reasons mentioned here.

[carney2]

Temple was drummed out of the Big Least because they could not put fannies in the seats. As 49R already stated, Villanova is a much smaller school than Temple, relying on the same metropolitan fan base. In Philadelphia, if it isn't covered in Iggle green they don't want to know about it. 'nova got out of the D-1A/FBS football business for a reason back in the 80s. Nothing's changed. This is mindless drivel.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I don't see anyway Villanova can drum up enough support to make a move to FBS viable. There's a reason why they play most of their bball games at the 6k seat Pavilion rather than the Wells Fargo Center.

[Anovafan]

As I mentioned in another thread, this will be decided likely by the end of the month. The BE is leaning towards extending an offer to Nova to join. The unknown right now is how much the financial incentive will be from the BE. BE schools make $2M each year in football, so that would cover Nova's operating loss from football. If the BE offers $4M or more for facility upgrades, this is a real possibility. If it is less than that, who knows. Nova would likely split their games between Franklin Field, the Chester soccer stadium (with some endzone seats to get it over 20K) and Citizen's bank ballpark after the Phillies finish their season. Chester and Citizen's Bank are open to Nova playing there and have had discussions already. Penn would probably be the most difficult, but given the Ivy late start to the season, you could play a Sept game there without conflict and pick another week when Penn is away. There is no chance of an on campus stadium, as has been mentioned before because of local politics. Time will tell.

[NovaWildcat]

I don't see anyway Villanova can drum up enough support to make a move to FBS viable. There's a reason why they play most of their bball games at the 6k seat Pavilion rather than the Wells Fargo Center.

Despite being a smaller school with a smaller alumni base, Villanova is NO DOUBT a bigger draw to the local area than Temple. Look at last year's mayors cup..30K in the seats on a Thursday night. Temple's home average was a mere 15k.

Villanova packs 20k into the Wachovia Wells Fargo Whatever They Call It Now Center for 5 games a year. We've been doing this for over 5 years now. Temple could never do that for any opponent. They had trouble (go look at their rivals boards for proof) getting decent attendance for a top 25 basketball team last year in a 10k seat arena. It's pretty obvious Temple just has a lack of support for their programs even when they're going strong.

Temple's failure to put a decent football team on the field is what got them kicked out of the Big East. It has nothing to do with the community not rallying behind the team. Win, and then will come. We are not Temple.

Now some will say that Nova doesn't support its team now, which is largely true. However, this is entirely due to the opponents. Not a slight on the CAA, which is a great football conference that could compete with a lot of BCS teams, but these programs are simply not a draw for the Villanova community. In every other sport, our rivals are Syracuse, UConn, Rutgers - those are the opponents that would excite Wildcat fans. We want to compete on a National level the Biggest stage - that's what we do in all other sports. These are obvious reasons that Villanova fans have not supported this football team. We're not the only show in town and can't just fill stadiums by playing at a level where our fans don't see fit.

The biggest (and probably only) obstacle is a stadium. Linc not an option. Franklin Field maybe, but logistics of that are tough. Expanding Villanova Stadium is not an option because the town would never allow it. Best option is the Chester soccer stadium, which was actually built I believe with a blue print for expansion. Perhaps that would occur if Villanova signed on board?

[carney2]

Despite being a smaller school with a smaller alumni base, Villanova is NO DOUBT a bigger draw to the local area than Temple. Look at last year's mayors cup..30K in the seats on a Thursday night. Temple's home average was a mere 15k.

Villanova packs 20k into the Wachovia Wells Fargo Whatever They Call It Now Center for 5 games a year. We've been doing this for over 5 years now. Temple could never do that for any opponent. They had trouble (go look at their rivals boards for proof) getting decent attendance for a top 25 basketball team last year in a 10k seat arena. It's pretty obvious Temple just has a lack of support for their programs even when they're going strong.

Temple's failure to put a decent football team on the field is what got them kicked out of the Big East. It has nothing to do with the community not rallying behind the team. Win, and then will come. We are not Temple.

Now some will say that Nova doesn't support its team now, which is largely true. However, this is entirely due to the opponents. Not a slight on the CAA, which is a great football conference that could compete with a lot of BCS teams, but these programs are simply not a draw for the Villanova community. In every other sport, our rivals are Syracuse, UConn, Rutgers - those are the opponents that would excite Wildcat fans. We want to compete on a National level the Biggest stage - that's what we do in all other sports. These are obvious reasons that Villanova fans have not supported this football team. We're not the only show in town and can't just fill stadiums by playing at a level where our fans don't see fit.

The biggest (and probably only) obstacle is a stadium. Linc not an option. Franklin Field maybe, but logistics of that are tough. Expanding Villanova Stadium is not an option because the town would never allow it. Best option is the Chester soccer stadium, which was actually built I believe with a blue print for expansion. Perhaps that would occur if Villanova signed on board?

Choose one:

(a) Wet dreams.

(b) Clouds in your coffee.

(c) Mindless daydreams.

(d) Delusions of grandeur.

(e) All of the above.

[DFW HOYA]

As I mentioned in another thread, this will be decided likely by the end of the month. The BE is leaning towards extending an offer to Nova to join. The unknown right now is how much the financial incentive will be from the BE.

Why no offer to the Big East's other football playing member? Are they not welcome?

[carney2]

Why no offer to the Big East's other football playing member? Is Georgetown still welcome in the conference?

You do throw up the barricades in the darnedest places.

[DFW HOYA]

You do throw up the barricades in the darnedest places.

I'm not saying Georgetown is ready for the BE (it's hardly ready for the PL some seasons, but I digress) but if you're offering financial incentives for one member school to upgrade, offer it to all of them.

[MplsBison]

Villanova needs UConn facilities to become relevant in BE football. That means a new practice facility on campus and a gameday facility somewhere.

If enough businessmen get in a room together and decide that this will be done, then that's that. They'll cobble it together if they have to.

But only if there money is there.

[henfan]

Now some will say that Nova doesn't support its team now, which is largely true. However, this is entirely due to the opponents.

If true, and I believe you're hunch is exactly right about the fickleness of Wildcat supporters, this is a really bad omen for VU's FB chances at the FBS level.

In order to orchestrate a successful reclassification (forget about the impossible facility conflicts inherent to VU's geography), a school needs to have a large, solid base of FB support, regardless of which teams are on the home schedule. Success depends largely upon ticket buyers who are going to show up in good times and bad, when facing opponents of high recognition or not. VU didn't have the support needed when they played at the University Division and I-A levels back in the '70s. Given their history of lackluster support before and since the revival of VU FB, it's hard to imagine how moving FB to various locations miles off campus is going to improve support, regardless of who the competition is.

[GannonFan]

To sum it up, it would speak volumes about the health of the Big East if they actually think adding nova is a good idea. Barring a stadium falling out of the sky and landing on nova's campus and the folks in Radnor not noticing, this is never going to happen. Not enough money, not enough of a fanbase (remember, a lot of those people who pack the big stadium in Philly for nova basketball are Philly-area college basketball fans - that doesn't mean all of those people are also going to show up for nova football games in a town that isn't big on college football that isn't Penn St), and there isn't a stadium option. Not. Going. To. Happen.

[Anovafan]

You may eat those words GannonFan, it is a lot more possible than you think.

[NovaWildcat]

There is absolutely no reason to believe Nova football cannot be like some of its peers - BC, Wake come to mind. Similar size schools (actually, I think Wake is a lot smaller). There is a Villanova fan base that could rival some of these teams.

Back to the point about the opponents, its not about the specific teams that Villanova plays. Its about the LEVEL OF PERCEIVED COMPETITION. Playing Rutgers or Syracuse in a Big East battle is A LOT more appealing to the community than any FCS team in a playoff game. While the FCS team might actually be a stronger football team, no one can argue that its not second-level football. Personally, I'll follow the Cats, go to games and opponents if we were D-III, but unfortunately most people won't.

As a poster said, its all about $$$. If you build a team, they will come.

[superman7515]

Villanova has a hard enough time drawing students and people from the surrounding communities to games when they are on campus. How could anybody believe that Villanova fans and the surrounding community would drive to a city that makes white people **** their pants to watch a team that they historically do not care about?

http://novafacts.blogspot.com/2010/01/why-soccer-stadium-in-chester-is-not.html

[MplsBison]

To sum it up, it would speak volumes about the health of the Big East if they actually think adding nova is a good idea. Barring a stadium falling out of the sky and landing on nova's campus and the folks in Radnor not noticing, this is never going to happen. Not enough money, not enough of a fanbase (remember, a lot of those people who pack the big stadium in Philly for nova basketball are Philly-area college basketball fans - that doesn't mean all of those people are also going to show up for nova football games in a town that isn't big on college football that isn't Penn St), and there isn't a stadium option. Not. Going. To. Happen.

Just like all the Appy fans on here decreed that UNC-Charlotte football would not be allowed?

[ramMan]

There is absolutely no reason to believe Nova football cannot be like some of its peers - BC, Wake come to mind. Similar size schools (actually, I think Wake is a lot smaller).



True, Villanova’s enrollment is similar to BC’s and larger than Wake’s, but there’s a huge difference from a financial standpoint. Listed below are the endowments and athletic expenses as well as enrollments of the three schools.

Endowment (as of 6/30/09)
Boston College ... $1,340,700,000
Wake Forest ... $886,761,000
Villanova ... $266,701,000

Athletic Expenses (reporting year 7/1/08 - 6/30/09)
Boston College ... $62,854,874
Wake Forest ... $43,880,429
Villanova ... $25,672,043

Football Budget (reporting year 7/1/08 - 6/30/09)
Boston College ... $19,408,065
Wake Forest ... $13,419,935
Villanova ... $4,680,860

Undergraduate Enrollment
Boston College ... 9,060
Wake Forest ... 4,476
Villanova ... 7,161

Total Enrollment
Boston College ... 13,903
Wake Forest ... 6,862
Villanova ... 10,275

[henfan]

There is absolutely no reason to believe Nova football cannot be like some of its peers - BC, Wake come to mind.

Sure there is; in fact, several reasons. The best thing VU has going for it is a potential invitation from a major conference and, granted, that's a very critical element. The cold hard facts are that VU has no history of support for major college FB (in fact, just the opposite) and no FBS stadium to call its own (and seemingly no place near campus to build it), nevermind funding mechanisms for pulling it off.

Any idea what Andy Talley's thoughts on the subject are?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Temple has a lease until at least 2018. It has often been rumored that giving that lease to Temple, a public university, was quid pro quo for using public money to build the stadium.

"$15 million paid by Temple University for 15 year contract, in 1 lump sum plus 4 annual payments.

The deal was arranged by Gov. Rendell and House Speaker Perzel. The Eagles wanted the entire $15 million up front; Temple wanted to pay $3 million per year for 5 years.

Temple will get a partial refund if it cancels the lease. (Temple was paying $100,000. per game to play at the Vet)"

http://www.billhance.com/football/Linc/LincMainPage.htm

[GannonFan]

You may eat those words GannonFan, it is a lot more possible than you think.

I'm not really holding my breath here. :)

[jstclmet]

Any idea what Andy Talley's thoughts on the subject are?

Actually, YES.

The last time we spoke on the subject was last August. I'm going to try and get out to a pre-season practice during the week of 8/16 - 8/19 (my aim is to see UD and TU in that time period too). At which time, I'll follow up on our Aug discussions.

To try and briefly summarize some of our conversation before I put it to print, the following is the gist of what was said; "....The conversation regarding Nova moving to FBS is not new. It's been ongoing for years. Changes like this doesn't happen overnight. Essentially, a lot of pieces have to fall in line at the right time. Faciility development (adding new Athletic buildings, stadiums, etc are kind of hard to justify when salaries are being frozen). The decision to move to FBS will be one that's made when it's the right time for Villanova. There was no immediate plan to do so in Aug of 2009....."

[MplsBison]

I'm not really holding my breath here. :)

That's the beauty of internet message boards. You can take an unreasonable, extremist ideological stance without having to risk any real-life credibility.

[RookieWill]

1. Villanova would absolutely prefer the status quo of playing FCS football against the CAA conference and having the chance to win a national championship.

2. Villanova, though, is 100% focused on maintaining its basketball program at the HIGHEST levels (e.g., the Big East conference) and is extremely afraid of being left behind with the Seton Halls and Providence's of the world in a conference that will be the functional equivalent of the Atlantic 10 is.

3. Further, people forget that Villanova's sports programs are extremely successful. No team in the Big East conference (including Notre Dame) has as many NCAA titles as Villanova (18 or 19), nor does any team have as many individual NCAA champions. While VU does not fully fund sports the way a Big Time state school does, they do in select sports and are extremely successful there. They want to protect that heritage

Now, the Big East is faced with the following challenges

1. A small group of schools (namely Rutgers) who openly want to be in the Big Ten, and a bigger group of schools (Pitt, Syracuse) who would love for the Big East to be successful but crave the security of the Big Ten, and a bunch of schools who realize they'll probably never be invited to the Big Ten, or SEC (Cincy, Louisville) and then you've got WVU and UCONN, who might be attractive to the SEC or ACC, but they are no sure thing. Further, none of them really trust each other

2. They operate in a conference that has only 7 league football games, when every other league has at least 8, and some are moving towards 9 league games. The Big East schools have a BRUTAL time scheduling games and just as importantly the league schedule is unfair as some teams have 4 home games, others 3.

3. With those two things in mind, the big east NEEDS at least one more school so that 1) they can have a balanced schedule and 2) they can absorb a loss of Rutgers (or Pitt or Syracuse) for a period of time. They NEED it right now

4. Unfortunately, their first choice Notre Dame isn't coming (and they know that), so they have to go to their second choice. Some schools want Memphis, others ECU, others Central Florida, but the BASKETBALL SCHOOOLS don't want ANY ONE. AND, the basketball money is just as important as the football money in the Big East. Pitt, Syracuse, UCONN don't want to drop the hoops schools, so there is a stale mate

ENTER VILLANOVA TO THE BIG EAST DISCUSSION.

1. Villanova and Georgetown are the ONLY schools, other than Notre Dame, can get in without the basketball schools being able to block the invitation, but Villanova can be up and running competitively in very short order. Gtown, would need much longer period of time

2. In 1997 the Big East did not want teams without a stadium, plus the NCAA thresholds (minimum stadium size) were in place, it made VU to the Big East a more difficult proposition. But, right now, the Big East really doesn't care any more (at least in the short term) and is willing to let Villanova play in a mix of stadiums (Villanova's campus with temporary stands, the Soccer Stadium in Chester, Franklin Field, and CBP - after the Phillies are done).

3. AND, there are enough people within the Villanova leadership that are very much concerned that eventually if they don't have FBS football, they run the risk of having their basketball team on the level of saint joseph's or lasalle. This is why this is being discussed both at the Big East level and at the Villanova level.

4. Will it happen - ONLY IF VILLANOVA BELIEVES NOT DOING IT WILL JEOPARDIZE THEIR HOOPS PROGRAM.

Now the points about whether or not they can be successful, what kind of fan support they get, etc. are irrelevant. It's not about being successful for Villanova right now. It's about protecting basketball.

Finally, wrt to fan support, people forget that for the first 3-4 years of Villanova football in the 80's, they sold out every home game. People were excited about VU football coming back, tailgating was very liberal, and the games were a blast. Over time, the university eliminated tailgating almost entirely and the general fan base became board with playing the Yankee schedule. Unfortunate, but true.

IF Villanova does join the Big East, you will see a very successful 3-4 year span of attendance. If the team, after 3-4 years, does not have success on the field, you'll see an annual attendance of 15K, other than big games. If they team has some moderate success and is building towards something, you'll see them be able to sustain a 30K type attendance (remember teams like Rutgers, WVU, PITT will travel extremely well to Villanova games, Nova will probably schedule Temple every year too, and I would guess an FCS game against a local rivalry like Delaware)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Now the points about whether or not they can be successful, what kind of fan support they get, etc. are irrelevant. It's not about being successful for Villanova right now. It's about protecting basketball.

Rep points - what a great, thorough post. As far as the Big East's interests go, your logic makes a lot of sense - it's way easier to try to make Villanova into an FBS school than to convince some far-reaching outpost like Memphis, UCF or ECU to come on board and potentially make an already-schizophrenic conference more schizophrenic.

But there remain significant hurdles. If the Big East wants to make it happen, they're going to have to pay the city of Philadelphia (or Chester, or both) through the nose to rent those facilities.

You know what may make the most sense? Paying off Penn to play in Chester, and Villanova taking over Franklin Field. It's so difficult to envision happening, though. I just don't see Villanova playing stadium musical chairs - not least because it would cost the Big East so much money. Villanova, if they want to be FBS, need a stadium they can call their own - and unless something changes, it really doesn't look likely that it will.

Now, will Villanova want to protect basketball that badly? Plus, is the Big East willing to pay up? And, will the CBP/Philadelphia Union/Penn/Franklin Field/government of Philadelphia/the governor's office cooperate? That's a lot of interests that need to align to make it happen. I think that's what makes it unlikely. JMHO, of course.

[UNH Fanboi]

It seems like it should be possible for Nova/The Big East to rent out Franklin Field and the Linc on a game by game basis. UPenn's season starts two weeks late and ends a week early, so that could be a couple of games right there. I've also noticed that Temple is playing a couple of Tuesday games next year, so that opens up some spots. And why couldn't the Big East schedule some Friday night games for Nova?

What are the chances that Nova, UPenn and Temple would all have to play a home game on the same day, on the same weekend? And even if they did, wouldn't it be possible to have two games on the same day? I know that would cause problems with TV scheduling, but perhaps Nova could agree to let Temple/UPenn schedule the game whenever they want and they'll work around it

Obviously this isn't an ideal solution, but it should be able to work if the Nova/The Big East have the will, and UPenn and The Linc aren't stubborn (which they shouldn't be, since they would be getting money for someone using their stadiums when they would otherwise not be earning money).

To me, the problem is not if Nova could find suitable stadiums in the short term, but more what their long term plan would be given that the town of Radnor has them by the balls. Playing musical stadiums every year is not a long term plan and would probably hinder efforts to build a sustainable fan-base.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It seems like it should be possible for Nova/The Big East to rent out Franklin Field and the Linc on a game by game basis. UPenn's season starts two weeks late and ends a week early, so that could be a couple of games right there. I've also noticed that Temple is playing a couple of Tuesday games next year, so that opens up some spots. And why couldn't the Big East schedule some Friday night games for Nova?

What are the chances that Nova, UPenn and Temple would all have to play a home game on the same day, on the same weekend? And even if they did, wouldn't it be possible to have two games on the same day? I know that would cause problems with TV scheduling, but perhaps Nova could agree to let Temple/UPenn schedule the game whenever they want and they'll work around it

Obviously this isn't an ideal solution, but it should be able to work if the Nova/The Big East have the will, and UPenn and The Linc aren't stubborn (which they shouldn't be, since they would be getting money for someone using their stadiums when they would otherwise not be earning money).

To me, the problem is not if Nova could find suitable stadiums in the short term, but more what their long term plan would be given that the town of Radnor has them by the balls. Playing musical stadiums every year is not a long term plan and would probably hinder efforts to build a sustainable fan-base.

Not the Linc. Two teams on that field already tax it enough.

[UNH Fanboi]

Not the Linc. Two teams on that field already tax it enough.

Just realized that it was a grass field. Does Temple ever play games there on the same weekend as the Eagles? If they can deal with it for Temple's games, they should be able to handle a couple more games. Anyway, Frankin field would probably be the first choice, because the money would probably be more meaningful to UPenn, and their operating costs are probably less.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just realized that it was a grass field. Does Temple ever play games there on the same weekend as the Eagles? If they can deal with it for Temple's games, they should be able to handle a couple more games. Anyway, Frankin field would probably be the first choice, because the money would probably be more meaningful to UPenn, and their operating costs are probably less.

Temple plays the day before the Eagles at the Linc often enough for the fans and sportswriters to complain a lot about the condition of the grass field following a Temple game. Dave Spadaro, the Eagles' message board mouthpiece, sugar-coats it and always says that the field is/was in "fine" condition after a Temple game but everyone can see that it's not.

I'm sure the Eagles would rather not have college games on their grass but that seems to be the deal that they struck to get the stadium built.

Franklin Field has Sprinturf. There's literally no place to park there, however.

[RookieWill]

From what I understand, the linc is not a reasonable option, but unlike the linc, the Chester stadium would LOVE to have another tenant and it would be a market lease. penn will absolutely make FF available, but they won't allow Nova preference. I have heard from a number of people that CBP is a realistic option once baseball is over.

The stadium situation is far from ideal, but given all of the dynamics the big east and Villanova both believe there are enough options for it to work

[DFW HOYA]

The stadium situation is far from ideal, but given all of the dynamics the big east and Villanova both believe there are enough options for it to work

That's an understatement.

Linc: Temple pays $1 million a year to rent the field, and the field can't absorb a second college tenant.

Franklin Field: Penn will not cede control over its stadium, or should it. It would be like asking Harvard to go to Nickerson Field to accomodate BC.

CPB: You're essentially putting Villanova on the road for the first five weeks of the season, assuming the Phils don't go into the playoffs. Far too many variables to schedule around.

PPL Park: 18,000 seats, in scenic Chester, and no SEPTA rail service. Might as well put up bleachers in the endzone at Villanova Stadium.

They can always raise money and build a new stadium. Didnt' work in DC, though.

[UAalum72]

What kind of shape is Franklin Field in, anyway? I seem to remember reading about crumbling bleachers, let alone just not having modern amenities.

[Catsfan2]

From what I've heard (unofficially) is that it's the BE and not Nova that driving the discussion, although as noted in other posts, Nova's primary interest is protecting hoops. Also, there is far from universal support for the move even within the athletic department --there is concern among the other (non-BB/FB) men's teams that additional FB scholarships will take away the few scholarships now available to the the other men's teams, notwithstanding any dollars BE FB might bring in. What else I've heard is, at least at first, they will be permitted to play non-conference home games (and possibly one BE home game) on campus in the stadium as it is (no expansion or temporary seats). Home games would then move to PCP (it's the possibility of the Phils in the playoffs that is bringing Chester into the discussion).

[WestCoastAggie]

Just some questions about this topic:

1. If 'Nova leaves the CAA for the big east and URI leaves the CAA for the NEC, what will and should UMass, Maine and UNH do regarding their football affiliation? Should they push the CAA to Admit Stony Brook & Fordham to help ease their travel budgets?

2. If 'Nova is having such challenges in moving football to the big east, why in the world isn't Big East looking at a school like UMass to Join? That would seem to be a more logical choice and UMass could be competitive in both football and basketball in a hurry.

[Jackman]

Because UMass isn't already in the Big East. That's the only card Villanova (and UConn prior to them) is holding that makes them attractive. If the Big East was going to take an outsider that wasn't already at the BCS level, they'd take UCF or Memphis. No reason for them to even think about UMass so long as we're playing at the FCS level.

[UNH Fanboi]

If 'Nova is having such challenges in moving football to the big east, why in the world isn't Big East looking at a school like UMass to Join? That would seem to be a more logical choice and UMass could be competitive in both football and basketball in a hurry.

Because they don't want more than 16 basketball teams, which is what would happen if they took in anybody other than Nova or Georgetown.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Because UMass isn't already in the Big East. That's the only card Villanova (and UConn prior to them) is holding that makes them attractive. If the Big East was going to take an outsider that wasn't already at the BCS level, they'd take UCF or Memphis. No reason for them to even think about UMass so long as we're playing at the FCS level.

Just to pre-empt DFW here, it is kind of strange that Georgetown, who has TWO facilities it could rent, isn't in the discussion at all. What he said was right: Villanova has a successful program but no stadium. Georgetown has the stadium but not a successful program.

Ironically, PPL park could be a great FCS-level stadium with 18,000 capacity.

[RookieWill]

First-off, I really want to put the stadium issue to rest - I understand it seems like a big issue and It WAS a big issue 15 years ago, it is NOT an issue now. It is not ideal, but everyone can live with it. As it relates to the LINC, The Eagles CONTROL the stadium and DID NOT want Temple there. It was more important to Jeffrey Lurie to have a pristine field than the $1.0MM per year. He was arm twisted by the governor due to the public funding and was forced to concede.

THIS IS NOT THE CASE for FF AND PPL Field. Penn controls Franklin Field and is happy to get extra revenue on days it is not being used, just the same way they lease out the Palestra to anyone who wants it. It would not be cheap, but won't be anything like the Rent payments Temple makes. As far as the soccer stadium is concerned, the state and city just want it being used as much as possible (BTW, there is public transportation there, just not right on site, but I know for soccer games they have quick shuttle buses over). The more days that stadium is used, the more days the Chester residents who work there get paid. Again, Nova would have to rent it, but it would be at market terms - not the Temple deal. And per the above poster, my understanding is that for an FCS-type OOC game (hopefully Delaware, LEHIGH, or W&M - a good traditional rival) they would be able to do it on campus with or without temporary stands in the endzone(s).

Again, not ideal, but IT IS NOT an impediment in any way here. The only facility impediments are what VU would have to do over time from a practice facility perspective (but that is for another day)

The impediments, as I understand it, really are two fold -

1) money associated with the increased costs of a FBS program (40 extra scholarships at $50K per ship is $2.0mm) and that doesn't include increased recruiting budgets, coaching staff budgets, etc. The big east money payout for football schools is frankly anemic and as much as Villanova loses on football now, they would lose more out of the gate with the upgrade

2) fear of the impact it will have on the academic mission of the university. Villanova's current football players generally fit in with the student body very well. Like any other school, there are bad apples, but the football players tend to go to class, do well, graduate, etc. There is a (mis?)conception amongst the academic side of Villanova that the jump to FBS will include a degradation in the academic capabilities of those students and you run the risk of having "bad apples" and that publicity hurting the university.

Oh, and the athletic department is NOT driving this decision. It is the Big East who is putting pressure on Villanova and will be made by the University's Board of Trustees. They were the same body (different people) who dropped football in 1980, brought it back in 1985, and then declined the Big East's last offer in the 90's

[Catsfan2]

As wonderful as the FCS National Championship is, it has had absolutely no impact on the University as a whole. Whereas with basketball a final four or other good showing in the big dance increases giving and applications, and even though it's been 25 years, the National Championship in basketball forever changed the university and helped its image in every conceivable way. The administration is obsessed with protecting basketball, and will do whatever is necessary to do so. Andy Talley has gone from fighting the administration tooth and nail to avoid a move to non-scholarship football (hence his perceived dislike of the Patriot league) to true ambivalence on a move to FBS. There is also a view that even a modicum of success at the FBS level will stimulate additional giving. FCS is felt to "protect" whatever giving there is now. That is, a move down (non-scholarship FB) would result in a decrease in giving.

[henfan]

The Big East is so hard up that they'd want a team with little fan support as it is to play its home games shuttling between ancient FF and comparatively small PPL Field in the hardly safe city of Chester? I'm finding that impossible to believe. The Big East didn't like Temple playing a few games at FF a few years back. Suddenly, the BEC has lowered their standards? Something doesn't add up with this rumor.

So, if VU comes to the inevitable decision for a third time that the school simply cannot fund a big time college FB program, what is the BEC going to do? VU MBB is under no imminent threat, nor is Marquette, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall or Georgetown.

[DFW HOYA]

Andy Talley has gone from fighting the administration tooth and nail to avoid a move to non-scholarship football (hence his perceived dislike of the Patriot league) to true ambivalence on a move to FBS.

Just "perceived"? Why wouldn't he schedule a can't-lose proposition with Georgetown..if he didn't want Nova to be associated with the PL?

[RookieWill]

DFW - didn't VU have an 8 game deal with Lehigh? Is there a lot of desire from GTOWN to play Nova and Nova has said no?

[NovaWildcat]

VU MBB is under no imminent threat, nor is Marquette, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall or Georgetown.

This could not be more incorrect. Look at how the landscape of college sports is changing re: conference alignments. The Big East TV football contract is up in a few years, and several schools (i.e. Rutgers, Louisville) have been quite vocal about making this an all-sports conference.

Football is where the money is, no shocker there. If the football schools split from the Catholic BBall schools, then the Catholic 8 are immediately down-graded to a mid-major. That is a SERIOUS threat to Villanova basketball.

[NovaWildcat]

The Big East didn't like Temple playing a few games at FF a few years back. Suddenly, the BEC has lowered their standards? Something doesn't add up with this rumor.

Not a rumor: Big East commish John Marinatto has stated publically several times in the past week that they're looking at Villanova (and working with..) to move up.

This has nothing to do with perceived fan support. If VU can find the $$$, this will happen. Just look at UConn - they average close to what VU did when they were FCS (then DIAA) - and with the $$$, they created a nice program over there. Albeit there is no way VU can come up with Uconn-like money, but if there's enough for an upgrade, this thing will happen.

The comparisons to Temple are off as well. Besides being "traditional" rivals because of proixmity, these schools have nothing in common. Temple was an affliliate conference member with a short leash, not to mention all of the other differences between the schools. Neither the conference nor VU is looking at what happened to Temple as a barrometer for this test.

[Umass74]

The money continues to run strongly and I mean STRONGLY in favor of football. Have you seen the TV contracts of the Big Ten, ACC, and SEC? The Catholic basketball schools are are losing clout every year. The money, talent and success is moving to big state schools who can afford title IX and still fund football. Have you noticed even mighty Notre Dame is struggling? In the 1990's the State of Connecticut dropped $3.5 Billion into UConn. Compare that to the capital expenditures of Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall and the other Big East Catholic schools. Eventually the Big East will have to make some sort of accommodation with the basketball schools and restructure.

[RookieWill]

The Big East is so hard up that they'd want a team with little fan support as it is to play its home games shuttling between ancient FF and comparatively small PPL Field in the hardly safe city of Chester? I'm finding that impossible to believe. The Big East didn't like Temple playing a few games at FF a few years back. Suddenly, the BEC has lowered their standards? Something doesn't add up with this rumor.

So, if VU comes to the inevitable decision for a third time that the school simply cannot fund a big time college FB program, what is the BEC going to do? VU MBB is under no imminent threat, nor is Marquette, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall or Georgetown.

In addition what was posted above, Temple was kicked out of the conference when the Big East had VaTech, Miami, and Boston College (plus Pitt, Syracuse, etc.). Also, temple had zero connection with the Big East schools and literally did not bring anything to the table that the Big East wanted or needed. Temple moved on and its not like the Big East suffered. The current Villanova situation is different - as I stated above they NEED another team (yes they ARE hard up). AND Villanova is the only viable team (no offense to Gtown who has shown zero interest in supporting their football program) that doesn't require all of the basketball teams to approve the invite

[DFW HOYA]

AND Villanova is the only viable team (no offense to Gtown who has shown zero interest in supporting their football program) that doesn't require all of the basketball teams to approve the invite

I would take that more seriously if you had any knowledge of Georgetown's interest. But continue your argument...

[NovaWildcat]

DFW- since the subject is up, what is Georgetown's interest in football? They obviously haven't been competitive lately or have facilities. It would seem that such an elite university wouldn't stand for this. But this is entirely from an outsider who has no knowledge of what goes on internally over in hoya land.

[RookieWill]

DFW - Are you suggesting that Gtown wants to upgrade their football program? I am no Gtown expert, but that certainly contradicts everything I've read on hoyasaxa.com. BTW, I would be happy to be incorrect - would love for a Nova-Gtown rivalry to exist on the gridiron

[WestCoastAggie]

Does anybody know how much more money Villanova needs to be successful in their move to the Big East? 5 million? 10 million? 20million? Currently, 'Nova's budget is somewhere around $25 million.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In addition what was posted above, Temple was kicked out of the conference when the Big East had VaTech, Miami, and Boston College (plus Pitt, Syracuse, etc.). Also, temple had zero connection with the Big East schools and literally did not bring anything to the table that the Big East wanted or needed. Temple moved on and its not like the Big East suffered. The current Villanova situation is different - as I stated above they NEED another team (yes they ARE hard up). AND Villanova is the only viable team (no offense to Gtown who has shown zero interest in supporting their football program) that doesn't require all of the basketball teams to approve the invite

Temple was kicked out of the Big East because they were an associate member, their football programs weren't strong enough and they were killing the strength of football in the league. But I wouldn't say they had no connection to the Big East schools - start with the "Big 5" connection with Villanova, and the ECC days with Rutgers. They've always been in the periphery.

And I'm not convinced the BE is in such dire need for another team as you seem to suggest. That folks were able to rattle off Memphis, ECU and UCF as possible teams - let alone Temple rejoining, or UMass jumping up in weight class - is indicator enough that there are plenty of teams, just not slam-dunks for a variety of reasons.

[Go...gate]

You may eat those words GannonFan, it is a lot more possible than you think.

I agree for one other reason - Division I FBS helps the school's reputation as a national university. Don't think Villanova has not been watching Boston College's rise in standing in the years since Doug Flutie put BC back on the national football map for the first time since Frank Leahy was the coach.

And I believe strongly that the Big East will work with Nova to resolve their facility issues and grant them an exeception to the "exclusive facility" rule if they wish.

[NovaWildcat]

And I'm not convinced the BE is in such dire need for another team as you seem to suggest. That folks were able to rattle off Memphis, ECU and UCF as possible teams - let alone Temple rejoining, or UMass jumping up in weight class - is indicator enough that there are plenty of teams, just not slam-dunks for a variety of reasons.

These schools aren't ideal options for the conference. As previously discussed, this is already a mega conference with 16 teams. They DO NOT want to make it 17 just to add another football team. The conference does however want a 9th football team for scheduling purposes...and Villanova can be that team without further problems. This is not to mention that the current schools have to approve of the additions - something that will be difficult to get by the Catholic 8.

[henfan]

Not a rumor: Big East commish John Marinatto has stated publically several times in the past week that they're looking at Villanova (and working with..) to move up.

This has nothing to do with perceived fan support. If VU can find the $$$, this will happen. Just look at UConn - they average close to what VU did when they were FCS (then DIAA) - and with the $$$, they created a nice program over there. Albeit there is no way VU can come up with Uconn-like money, but if there's enough for an upgrade, this thing will happen.

The comparisons to Temple are off as well. Besides being "traditional" rivals because of proixmity, these schools have nothing in common. Temple was an affliliate conference member with a short leash, not to mention all of the other differences between the schools. Neither the conference nor VU is looking at what happened to Temple as a barrometer for this test.

I wasn't implying that the BEC talking to VU about FB was a rumor. The rumor I was referring to was the notion that the BEC considers VU playing games at way off campus locations- specifically, FF and PPLF- acceptable solutions.

I also didn't compare TU to VU in that post. I simply indicated that FF, where TU was forced to play a few homes games as members of the BEC, was not considered to be an acceptable facility by the conference just a few years ago. Of course, neither you or I know for certain but, IMO, it seems unlikely that BEC leaders would want one of their teams playing regularly at FF. PPLF is not a great idea either, as it's half the size of the typical BEC stadium and is located 18 miles from campus in an unsafe location.

Now, comparing VU to UConn's situation in any way, as you did, is a considerable stretch. When VU can convince the Commonwealth to fund a 40K-seat palace to the tune of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars, then the comparison becomes more apt.

If it wasn't for the lack of a quality FBS facility, funding & support, I'd agree that this would be a no brainer for VU and the BEC.

[RookieWill]

henfan - keep on thinking the impediment is the facility - IT IS NOT. It is still less than 50/50 Villanova and BE make a move - but if it doesn't happen, the stadium won't be the primary reason

[GannonFan]

henfan - keep on thinking the impediment is the facility - IT IS NOT. It is still less than 50/50 Villanova and BE make a move - but if it doesn't happen, the stadium won't be the primary reason

The stadium is and always has been one of the biggest impediments because it represents the funding - how does nova make any money if they can't get people to their games? Without a stadium, they don't get the crowds, and as many people have said here, it's not like the Big East is so flush with cash that they can simply carry a football program that can't carry their own weight. The only two realistic options for a stadium are PPL Park in Chester and Franklin Field. Forget CBP, the Phils need the schedule cleared through early November every year, even if they eventually fall back to pre-Phillies Golden Age play. So that gives you an 18k seat soccer stadium and a decrepit stadium in West Philly. nova, if they would be able to stay alive in FBS, has to make some money and it's hard seeing how they can do that in either of those two places long term. And there'll never be another long term option - there'll never be an on-campus option and there is nowhere closer than those two spots for a stadium either. And if nova isn't good right away or has long periods of not being good, the fans won't come. Heck, you just need to look at the Lappas years of nova basketball to see that - even the vaunted basketball program in a hotbed of college basketball couldn't fill the small Pavillion back then. How would a much less stature, struggling football program in a town that barely knows college football other than Penn St exists function?

The Big East is safe for awhile. It's unlikely for the Big Ten to expand now for awhile, and the Big 12 isn't imploding yet and they may hang onto the bitter end. A lot of the real urgency for the Big East faded away when the doomsday scenario didn't happen this offseason.

[RookieWill]

GannonFan - I can't blame you for thinking the way you think regarding the stadium, you're being logical and using history for making your point of view . The one thing you're missing, though, is "where there is a will there is a way". There is no impediment from the NCAA here, there is no impediment from the Eagles here (ala Temple), the only impediment is the Big East agreeing to have a member who does not control their home stadium. that is the only impediment.

My point has been (and will continue to be) that the Big East is NOW willing to accept Villanova with a sub-optimal stadium solution. I can tell you with 100% certainty, that if Villanova upgrades their football program, they will have at their disposal 1) Villanova Stadium for OOC games against FCS opponent(s), 2) PPL Park against mid-level Big East and OOC opponents and 3) Franklin Field against high-level Big East and OOC opponents. They would very much intend to use all three venues - at least out of the gate. Over time they might shift more to FFL or more to PPL Park. Further, I can tell you that they are in the process of investigating CBP for a big late season game (remember baseball ends in Ocboer - 9/11 notwithstanding). CBP sits idle for 5 months, playing 1 game there in November will have zero impact on the Phillies as any damage to the turf will grow back before baseball starts.

Finally, the urgency is absolutely there for the Big East because they looked death in the face and didn't like it. It is the ONLY reason these conversations are happening - they don't want to be in the position again where ONE team gone means the death of the league. Remember, you have to let go of your old beliefs on this issue. Not saying it will happen as Villanova is VERY concerned about the reasons I stated above. Their president does not want it to happen, but he is smart enough to let the board consider it. But all of the stadium things are not an issue PERIOD

[MplsBison]

What's wrong with (or even 'sub-optimal') about this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/PPL_Park.jpg

It meets the FBS standard and looks pretty nice. Is it up to BCS standards? No. But you have to start somewhere.

If Nova could string together 5 competitive seasons, build some UConn like practice facilities on campus...maybe they could get enough cash and a deal with the Union to bump the place up to 30k-35k?

[henfan]

My point has been (and will continue to be) that the Big East is NOW willing to accept Villanova with a sub-optimal stadium solution. I can tell you with 100% certainty...

I'm not trying to bust your stones, but unless you've been directly involved in negotiations between VU, BEC, FF & PPL and those terms have been already been agreed upon, you can't possibly claim anything with any certainty, let alone complete certainty.

Internet message board gossip & rumor is not fact.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Villanova might only be 12 miles or so from PPL Park, but the Main Line is about a thousand miles away from Chester. My High School prom was in Chester. I know this won't work.

[RookieWill]

What's wrong with (or even 'sub-optimal') about this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/PPL_Park.jpg

It meets the FBS standard and looks pretty nice. Is it up to BCS standards? No. But you have to start somewhere.

If Nova could string together 5 competitive seasons, build some UConn like practice facilities on campus...maybe they could get enough cash and a deal with the Union to bump the place up to 30k-35k?

Looks pretty cool doesn't it? I am heading down for my first game next week. No idea who is playing, but am checking it out.

Bogus - As far as Chester is concerned and the Main Line, it is not like this stadium is in down town Chester and it's not like the people who are selling out the soccer games don't have anything in common with people who live on the main line.

henfan - fair point, I am only repeating what I have been told by people who are involved - I have more insight here with actual knowledge and am not openly speculating

[pitpen]

And per the above poster, my understanding is that for an FCS-type OOC game (hopefully Delaware, LEHIGH, or W&M - a good traditional rival) they would be able to do it on campus with or without temporary stands in the endzone(s).s

Why would Delaware be interested in playing an OOC game at a stadium half its size? Would William and Mary be interested in playing an OOC in a stadium approximately the size of their own?

[RookieWill]

pitpen - who knows (and who cares for that matter) if Delaware would be interested, I was only expressing my hope that if Villanova were to move up to FBS football, Delaware and Villanova would still play each other on some sem-regular basis

[dchen]

Temple was kicked out of the Big East because they were an associate member, their football programs weren't strong enough and they were killing the strength of football in the league. But I wouldn't say they had no connection to the Big East schools - start with the "Big 5" connection with Villanova, and the ECC days with Rutgers. They've always been in the periphery.

And I'm not convinced the BE is in such dire need for another team as you seem to suggest. That folks were able to rattle off Memphis, ECU and UCF as possible teams - let alone Temple rejoining, or UMass jumping up in weight class - is indicator enough that there are plenty of teams, just not slam-dunks for a variety of reasons.

LFN: With some of your old conference references, you sound as old as me. With respect to ECC (East Coast Conference?) you may be recalling the University Division of the old Middle Atlantic Conference which I think included Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Delaware, Temple?, maybe West Chester? I'm not sure if Rutgers was a member.

[pitpen]

pitpen - who knows (and who cares for that matter) if Delaware would be interested, I was only expressing my hope that if Villanova were to move up to FBS football, Delaware and Villanova would still play each other on some sem-regular basis

I'm just thinking...if Delaware, Lehigh, WM and other FCS teams don't see much reason to play Villanova in Radford, who will? That's one stadium option down the drain.

I would hope Villanova won't thumb their noses at playing in Newark once they're in the Big East if we can accomodate more patrons.

[UNH Fanboi]

Why would Delaware be interested in playing an OOC game at a stadium half its size?

That's a red herring because even if Nova had a 50K seat stadium, Delaware still wouldn't give up a home game to play them unless Nova paid them an amount that few FBS teams are willing to pay.

[TheValleyRaider]

I would hope Villanova won't thumb their noses at playing in Newark once they're in the Big East if we can accomodate more patrons.

Whether Villanova was for it or not, I imagine the Big East would stop it without hesitation xtwocentsx

[RookieWill]

If you look at the way Villanova schedules basketball games, it is not far fetched to imagine they would visit Delaware, for instance, if they went FBS. In hoops, for instance, they do 2 for 1's with mid or low majors. They played at bucknell a couple of years back and will play at Monmouth this season. They reason that it is a better return on their money to swap one home game every three years versus paying a guarantee to get a low major in. With the way the rpi works in hoops these days, they also get rewarded for an away game (obviously this isn't the case in football).

[wr70beh]

My point has been (and will continue to be) that the Big East is NOW willing to accept Villanova with a sub-optimal stadium solution. I can tell you with 100% certainty, that if Villanova upgrades their football program, they will have at their disposal 1) Villanova Stadium for OOC games against FCS opponent(s), 2) PPL Park against mid-level Big East and OOC opponents and 3) Franklin Field against high-level Big East and OOC opponents. They would very much intend to use all three venues - at least out of the gate. Over time they might shift more to FFL or more to PPL Park. Further, I can tell you that they are in the process of investigating CBP for a big late season game (remember baseball ends in Ocboer - 9/11 notwithstanding). CBP sits idle for 5 months, playing 1 game there in November will have zero impact on the Phillies as any damage to the turf will grow back before baseball starts.



Even playing at 2 stadiums in a year for home games is not a recipe for success. The scenario you lay out here would be confusing for the casual fan that they're trying to court. A lot of "where are they playing this week" questions. It is going to take an expanded soccer stadium, or sharing a stadium with someone else, and have them play at the same stadium during the season, in order for it to be successful.

[MplsBison]

Villanova might only be 12 miles or so from PPL Park, but the Main Line is about a thousand miles away from Chester. My High School prom was in Chester. I know this won't work.

Maybe they do things differently in the MLS, but as far as I know about professional stadium planning - they typically put stadiums in places with easy access and existing infrastructure....not out in the middle of nowhere like you're trying to make us believe.

I have my doubts that getting to the stadium requires the 'desert odyssey' trip package.

[MplsBison]

Looks pretty cool doesn't it? I am heading down for my first game next week. No idea who is playing, but am checking it out.

Bogus - As far as Chester is concerned and the Main Line, it is not like this stadium is in down town Chester and it's not like the people who are selling out the soccer games don't have anything in common with people who live on the main line.

henfan - fair point, I am only repeating what I have been told by people who are involved - I have more insight here with actual knowledge and am not openly speculating

It looks very nice - the seats are even the right color (with the exception of the "Union" seats, which could be covered with blue seatback covers).

[Aviator]

Carney2 - "Temple was drummed out of the Big Least because they could not put fannies in the seats. As 49R already stated, Villanova is a much smaller school than Temple, relying on the same metropolitan fan base. In Philadelphia, if it isn't covered in Iggle green they don't want to know about it. 'nova got out of the D-1A/FBS football business for a reason back in the 80s. Nothing's changed. This is mindless drivel."

Spot on. Villanova's home attendance was approximately 7,000 a game. Their FCS semifinal game against W&M had less than 5,000, and half of that number were W&M fans. Great football ... but little interest.

[DFW HOYA]

The PPL park argument is a bit of a red herring. MLS teams built natural grass, soccer-specific stadiums and none that I am aware of share with any college football team. MLS schedules run into late October and a lot of games are on Saturday night--regularly converting a stadium between football and soccer won't fly with the MLS.

[Catsfan2]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the FCS Championship game now scheduled to be played in an MLS soccer stadium.

[DFW HOYA]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the FCS Championship game now scheduled to be played in an MLS soccer stadium.

Yes, but two months after the end of the season.

All I'm saying is that the MLS frowns upon overuse of its natural turf surfaces during its season.

[MplsBison]

The PPL park argument is a bit of a red herring. MLS teams built natural grass, soccer-specific stadiums and none that I am aware of share with any college football team. MLS schedules run into late October and a lot of games are on Saturday night--regularly converting a stadium between football and soccer won't fly with the MLS.

Your technical objections noted, I think the business side of it will win out. The more the stadium gets used, the more money it brings in. I can't see the Union blackballing this with dollars on the table.

[MplsBison]

Yes, but two months after the end of the season.

All I'm saying is that the MLS frowns upon overuse of its natural turf surfaces during its season.

Then get an un-lined fieldturf surface and paint the lines as needed. Not hard at all.

Even FIFA recognizes fieldturf - the MLS can stick their thumb up their you know where if they think they're too good for artificial (esp. in northern climate).

[chazg]

I believe that Pizza Hut Park is also used by Frisco ISD for some of their football games.

[RookieWill]

Even playing at 2 stadiums in a year for home games is not a recipe for success. The scenario you lay out here would be confusing for the casual fan that they're trying to court. A lot of "where are they playing this week" questions. It is going to take an expanded soccer stadium, or sharing a stadium with someone else, and have them play at the same stadium during the season, in order for it to be successful.

Not arguing at all it is a recipe for success, just pointing out that the big east and the people at Villanova no longer view the stadium as impediment. The situation is far from ideal, but it won't be the reason Villanova doesn't move to the big east (if they don't)

Having said that, Villanova has had a lot of success with multiple arenas for basketball. They have used 2-3 arenas for hoops forever

[superman7515]

Then get an un-lined fieldturf surface and paint the lines as needed. Not hard at all.

Even FIFA recognizes fieldturf - the MLS can stick their thumb up their you know where if they think they're too good for artificial (esp. in northern climate).

Not to sound rude, but this seems farcical at best. You're suggesting that a privately owned corporation be forced to change a brand new privately owned $120 million dollar structure that has been open for less than two months to accomodate another company in a money losing venture (as is most of college football) 20 miles away from those most directly interested who have shown little to no support in the past even when provided with a quality and enviable product. While at the same time supporting two other organizations, the Philadelphia Union and Philadelphia Independence, who were intimately involved in the specific designing of that feature you want changed from 1300 miles away (not to mention that the UFL which plays its games Thursday to Saturday has been looking at PPL Park for over a year for expansion into the Philadelphia PA & Wilmington DE markets as an alternative to the overpriced Eagles, which would potentially drive the tenants to three different organizations all using the grass field during football season). Four different teams playing on a grass field in 2-3 days for weeks would end up with the UD-Richmond fiasco where the field is so craptacular you're playing home games in Piscataway.

As for transportation issues, yes the do exist, but the situation is neither as bad as some would lead you to believe on here, nor as good as though wishing to paint the rosiest of pictures. There is bus service and I-95 is only about a mile away. Those who are from the area know the Commodore Barry gets pretty congested, but just as with anything else on the east coast, if you actually want to go to the game or concert or beach you plan ahead and get there early.

[WestCoastAggie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the FCS Championship game now scheduled to be played in an MLS soccer stadium.

Yes and Texas Southern will be playing their home games in the new MLS stadium being built in Houston.

'Nova in the MLS Stadium in Philly shouldn't be an issue.

[henfan]

Carney pretty much nailed it, though, in fairness, SOMETHING has changed since VU's last failed big time CFB effort: they apparently now at least have interest from a major conference. They're still lacking any sort of fanbase (nothing's ever changed there), an FBS facility (despite message board gossip to the contrary) and funding.

This idea is about as likely to happen as Delaware State's effort to reclassify about 4 or so years ago.

[JMUNJ08]

There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for this to come to reality but I notice most negative posts are coming from Nova's biggest FCS rival, Delaware. I sense some not being too happy with even a remote possibility of Nova leaving.

Before I went to JMU I didn't know UCONN had a program. They were a bball school only through and through. Being the only game in town in Connecticut helps. Yes, Nova is a smaller school with past failures but I think a Nova/Rutgers game could get 20-30k at whatever venue they find to put up two goal posts at. If people want things done, obstacles will be dealt with and jumped over to get Nova to the Big East for football.

[superman7515]

This Delaware fan wouldn't mind seeing them go completely to the Big East. It would actually be kind of convenient for me to see some bigger schools, as opposed to driving to College Park and watching Maryland get debacled (1 conference championship since 85) or pretending that Temple vs Toledo is even mildly entertaining.

[MplsBison]

Not to sound rude, but this seems farcical at best. You're suggesting that a privately owned corporation be forced to change a brand new privately owned $120 million dollar structure that has been open for less than two months to accomodate another company in a money losing venture (as is most of college football) 20 miles away from those most directly interested who have shown little to no support in the past even when provided with a quality and enviable product. While at the same time supporting two other organizations, the Philadelphia Union and Philadelphia Independence, who were intimately involved in the specific designing of that feature you want changed from 1300 miles away (not to mention that the UFL which plays its games Thursday to Saturday has been looking at PPL Park for over a year for expansion into the Philadelphia PA & Wilmington DE markets as an alternative to the overpriced Eagles, which would potentially drive the tenants to three different organizations all using the grass field during football season). Four different teams playing on a grass field in 2-3 days for weeks would end up with the UD-Richmond fiasco where the field is so craptacular you're playing home games in Piscataway.

As for transportation issues, yes the do exist, but the situation is neither as bad as some would lead you to believe on here, nor as good as though wishing to paint the rosiest of pictures. There is bus service and I-95 is only about a mile away. Those who are from the area know the Commodore Barry gets pretty congested, but just as with anything else on the east coast, if you actually want to go to the game or concert or beach you plan ahead and get there early.

Villinova might lose money on football, but the point was that the owners of the stadium only stand to make additional money by having the stadium open to more events. You have to look at these things for all of the business viewpoints. Villanova needs a place to play games and this place could be their best option. And perhaps Villanova would be willing to replace the grass with artificial turf? Would that be acceptable to you?

[MplsBison]

Carney pretty much nailed it, though, in fairness, SOMETHING has changed since VU's last failed big time CFB effort: they apparently now at least have interest from a major conference. They're still lacking any sort of fanbase (nothing's ever changed there), an FBS facility (despite message board gossip to the contrary) and funding.

This idea is about as likely to happen as Delaware State's effort to reclassify about 4 or so years ago.

Villanova doesn't have any sort of fanbase? Who are the people who come watch the bball games?

I know it's not the same thing, but if UConn did it... I'm just saying, it's not the slam-dunk against case that you want it to be.

[Husky Alum]

Factually incorrect statement about MLS not wanting a joint football/soccer stadium, DFW.

The MLS signed off on a stadium in Boston which was about 200 feet from NU's campus. The stadium was going to be in the 18.5-22K range, had field turf os some sort, and would have been a joint venture between NU and the New England Revolution. Bob Kraft loses a fortune every time he opens up Gillette for MLS and thought a stadium in Boston proper would be a win/win for the Revs, NU, and local Pop Warner Football (The Boston Pop Warner football teams were basically voted out of two different geographical leagues for field condition concerns).

Only problem was the Mayor of Boston didn't want it built.

So Kraft has no stadium and NU has no football.

To say the MLS doesn't want the conversion is false. The operating agreement between NU and the Revs clearly stated that NU had right of first refusal for all Saturday games from September through November. The Revs would have one "put" where they could have forced NU to play on a Friday night if the Revs were in the MLS playoffs.

[wr70beh]

Comparing UConn with Villanova is a bit far-fetched. UConn is a big public institution in a state with not much to root for except for teams from New England or New York. They used public money to build a nice stadium. Villanova has too many things to compete with in Philly, and very little in funding.

Temple is a larger school with a larger alumni base and they can't draw flies. Penn doesn't draw that well, either. Philly is a basketball-first town when it comes to colleges.

[MplsBison]

Comparing UConn with Villanova is a bit far-fetched. UConn is a big public institution in a state with not much to root for except for teams from New England or New York. They used public money to build a nice stadium. Villanova has too many things to compete with in Philly, and very little in funding.

Temple is a larger school with a larger alumni base and they can't draw flies. Penn doesn't draw that well, either. Philly is a basketball-first town when it comes to colleges.

Heard it all before.

Villanova is a national brand due to their sucesses in march madness. People know of the school (even if they don't know where it is) all over the country.


If they could put a good product on the field at the Union stadium, they can sell that football brand to the people of Philly.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Why does Villanova, or for that matter Georgetown, need to move to Big East football?

[NovaWildcat]

Why does Villanova, or for that matter Georgetown, need to move to Big East football?

Simple: to protect its national basketball program. It is VERY POSSIBLE in 2 years (when the TV contract is up) that the 8 Big East football schools break apart from the 8 Catholic Basketball-only schools. The money and the power is in football. The 8 public schools know that, and also know that their revenue sharing is going straight into the pockets of the Catholic schools which don't pull the same weight. Additionally, will all of the other movement in college sports, that only encourages the football schools to be proactive with an all sports conference...ie Memphis, UCF, East Carolina's of the world. Rutgers and others have made no secret that they want Big 10 and likewise, bigger and more revenue-driving things than the current 16 team conference. In the grand scheme of things, the 8 schools are driving the car here.

When this split inevitably occurs (and could've been as soon as this summer, if Texas jumped to the P10, setting off a chain of dominoes), the Catholic schools become a glorified A-10. Not the Big East power that is currently the best basketball conference in the country. Now, of course, they're are outliers (Gonzaga, Xavier) in the mid-majors, but they are few and far between.

So basically, to protect its top tier basketball program, Villanova needs to be proactive and align itself with the stronger powers in the conference. Unfortunately, this also means seperating from traditional rivals - but it could also be the glue that keeps the current 16 team conference together and prevents recruiting those other schools to replace the current ones.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Simple: to protect its national basketball program. It is VERY POSSIBLE in 2 years (when the TV contract is up) that the 8 Big East football schools break apart from the 8 Catholic Basketball-only schools. The money and the power is in football. The 8 public schools know that, and also know that their revenue sharing is going straight into the pockets of the Catholic schools which don't pull the same weight.

This remains a head-scratcher to me, though. I completely understand if it is a matter of Villanova being dumped from its own conference. But Villanova and Georgetown are cornerstones of the Big East. I don't think it's a revenue issue for Villanova and it's certainly not a need to gain national exposure and reputation which it already has. Its student and alumni base is much, much different than, say, UCF or East Carolina. So few private schools can maintain BCS football; once you go there there's no looking back. We're in a society pressing for the centralization and homogenization of everything including higher education. Its substance has thinned measurably and its value has been diluted at some institutions to meaninglessness. I would hate to see Villanova go in that direction.

There's no question that Villanova could create a Syracuse-level or even a BC-level team with a bunch of money and a new facility. It probably won't have to sacrifice admissions standards too much because it would be immediately attractive to high-level recruits. But with the success Villanova already has in FCS, I guess I still have to be convinced of the downside if it doesn't make the jump.

Some places maintain BCS football for the same reason General Electric still makes light bulbs - it loses money hand over foot in doing so, but no one would recognize GE if it didn't. Villanova does not have that problem.

[ur2k]

Simple: to protect its national basketball program. It is VERY POSSIBLE in 2 years (when the TV contract is up) that the 8 Big East football schools break apart from the 8 Catholic Basketball-only schools. The money and the power is in football. The 8 public schools know that, and also know that their revenue sharing is going straight into the pockets of the Catholic schools which don't pull the same weight. Additionally, will all of the other movement in college sports, that only encourages the football schools to be proactive with an all sports conference...ie Memphis, UCF, East Carolina's of the world. Rutgers and others have made no secret that they want Big 10 and likewise, bigger and more revenue-driving things than the current 16 team conference. In the grand scheme of things, the 8 schools are driving the car here.

When this split inevitably occurs (and could've been as soon as this summer, if Texas jumped to the P10, setting off a chain of dominoes), the Catholic schools become a glorified A-10. Not the Big East power that is currently the best basketball conference in the country. Now, of course, they're are outliers (Gonzaga, Xavier) in the mid-majors, but they are few and far between.

So basically, to protect its top tier basketball program, Villanova needs to be proactive and align itself with the stronger powers in the conference. Unfortunately, this also means seperating from traditional rivals - but it could also be the glue that keeps the current 16 team conference together and prevents recruiting those other schools to replace the current ones.

... Or you could go the other way and join the a10. You could be just like UR a10 b-ball and CAA football.

xlolx

xnodx

[NovaWildcat]

But Villanova and Georgetown are cornerstones of the Big East. I don't think it's a revenue issue for Villanova and it's certainly not a need to gain national exposure and reputation which it already has.


Being a conference cornerstone holds little weight here...it's all about the $$$. Louisville, USF, Cincy have no allegiance to Gtown and Nova - yet they certainly could contribute to the football schools breaking off and forming its own conference. Rutgers (another "cornerstone") AD has openly expressed willingness to discuss Big 10 talks in the past few years; this type of attitude certainly wouldn't stop them from breaking off, either. At the end of the day, the schools are going to go where they can drive the most revenue - and if that means dumping Nova/Gtown so be it.

I agree - Nova wouldn't do this just for the purposes of gaining national exposure. However, any shot to its basketball program IS a detrement to its national exposure and reputation, and could over time have a major impact on the University. It's no coincidence that Nova's biggest spike in applications come after major basketball seasons. Consider it a preventative measure.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This thread is interesting to say the least. As a sports fan and grad of a fellow Big 5 school, it's interesting to see some of varying opinions on this topic.

Villanova would be the most interesting school to move up in a long, long time. I'm not sure if there's been private institution to make the jump in the last 30 or 40 years.


First, college athletics are NOT as big of a deal in Philly as some believe on here. It's a pro sports town first and foremost. College basketball has it's place in the cities culture but there's a limit.

St. Joe's knew what they were doing when they renovated The Fieldhouse and only added 700 seats to bring the total to 4,200. Temple was a Top 25 team last year and averaged a modest 6,500 per game with a solid schedule. Villanova plays a majority of their games at the 6k seat Pavilion for a reason. When 'Nova isn't having a great season they'll get 9-11k for the marquee Big East games at the Wells Fargo Center. Georgetown has the same issues.

Those in SEPA will also tell you that Villanova is not loved by everyone in the region. St. Joe's run in '04 got more support from the city than anything Villanova has done on the court in the last 20 years. 'Nova as a whole is stereotyped as the popped color, elitest school that doesn't really relate to the true City schools. I believe 'Nova has more of a stigma in that regard than Penn. This is not hate from a TU guy but rather a true stereotype. Part of this comes from them personally ruining the Big 5 city series for a number of years for what some believed were selfish reasons. The Big 5 has never fully recovered imo.


There's so many interesting angles to this one. Ultimately, i can't see it happening. Any way i look at it there would be a huge amount of risk. There's absolutely no blueprint for a school like Villanova to use.

[DFW HOYA]

Villanova would be the most interesting school to move up in a long, long time. I'm not sure if there's been private institution to make the jump in the last 30 or 40 years.

The last private school to move to what is now I-A was the University of Tampa, which was a major college program from roughly 1963 to 1974 and played in the old "Sombrero" known as Tampa Stadium. It dropped football and left D-I entirely after '74, leaving the Tampa-St. Pete market to a small but growing commuter college called the University of South Florida, which started a program in 1997 and hasn't looked back.


Villanova plays a majority of their games at the 6k seat Pavilion for a reason. When 'Nova isn't having a great season they'll get 9-11k for the marquee Big East games at the Wells Fargo Center. Georgetown has the same issues.

Villanova's situation is better--it has an option not to play in Center City. Georgetown has no on-campus gym available to host Big East games, it must pay top dollar at Verizon Center whether they are playing Duke or American. Of course, Georgetown doesn't even have a practice facility, and 14 other Big East schools have that. A realistic timeline of a practice facility is delayed behind....yes, finishing the Multi-Sport Facility.

[NovaWildcat]

This thread is interesting to say the least. As a sports fan and grad of a fellow Big 5 school, it's interesting to see some of varying opinions on this topic.

Villanova would be the most interesting school to move up in a long, long time. I'm not sure if there's been private institution to make the jump in the last 30 or 40 years.


First, college athletics are NOT as big of a deal in Philly as some believe on here. It's a pro sports town first and foremost. College basketball has it's place in the cities culture but there's a limit.

St. Joe's knew what they were doing when they renovated The Fieldhouse and only added 700 seats to bring the total to 4,200. Temple was a Top 25 team last year and averaged a modest 6,500 per game with a solid schedule. Villanova plays a majority of their games at the 6k seat Pavilion for a reason. When 'Nova isn't having a great season they'll get 9-11k for the marquee Big East games at the Wells Fargo Center. Georgetown has the same issues.

Those in SEPA will also tell you that Villanova is not loved by everyone in the region. St. Joe's run in '04 got more support from the city than anything Villanova has done on the court in the last 20 years. The school as a whole is stereotyped as the popped color, elitest school that doesn't really relate to the true City schools. I believe 'Nova has more of a stigma in that regard than Penn. This is not hate from TU guy but rather a true stereotype. Part of this comes them personally ruining the Big 5 city series for a number of years for what some believed were selfish reasons. The Big 5 has never fully recovered imo.


There's so many interesting angles to this one. Ultimately, i can't see it happening. Any way i look at it there would be a huge amount of risk. There's absolutely no blueprint for a school like Villanova to use.

Absolutely agree about Philly being a pro-sports town. That's where the loyalty lies. Sure college basketball used to be big time there - but that is just a product of the concentration of schools in the area. When teams are good, fans will generally come watch. I think that's really the "attendance issue" that people struggle with here. I don't think anyone can deny that if Villanova football is competitive at a high level, the fans will come. It's the downtimes when the size of the fan base will be questioned (especially because the student body/alumni size is relatively small).

To compare the support of St. Joe's OR Temple in basketball (and meaning that somehow translates to Nova's football fanbase) is an absolute joke. Neither compete at anywhere near the same level as Villanova. "Villanova plays the majority of their games at the 6k Pavilion for a reason." - The reason is the past administration (the same one that cancelled football a few years prior) had ZERO clue or foresight about athletics and built a gym in the mid-80's that was way too small. Villanova could fill an area twice the size of the Pavilion for any opponent.

And of course the 04 St. Joe's run translated into more publicity than anything from Villanova. It's a feel good, cinderella story! If Nova is a top team, there's no surprise there and it's less of a big deal. It's that simple.

No one is going to argue that Villanova is loved by everyone. It's an expensive, selective private school in a wealthy area. However this negative stigma hasn't stopped the Cats from selling out the Wachovia Center for every game its played there in the last 5 years. And it didn't stop the buzz around the team when we were #1 in 06 and made the Final Four in 09. Again, if Villanova puts a good product out there, people will come!

As an off-topic Big 5 aside, Villanova didn't ruin it. It outgrew it to an extent with the differences in conferences and competition. We still follow tradition by playing all the games. Not many other top programs play away games at Ivy schools (Penn) or lowly mid majors (La Salle, SJU sometimes) every other year. And I also don't see Temple playing any home games in the Palestra, that's for sure. Please leave your personal bias against Villanova at the door.

[henfan]

There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for this to come to reality but I notice most negative posts are coming from Nova's biggest FCS rival, Delaware. I sense some not being too happy with even a remote possibility of Nova leaving.

Obviously I can't speak for any UD fan but myself but, honestly, I couldn't care less if VU reclassified its FB program. I'd regret losing a long time rival but there are plenty of heated rivals in the CAA (W&M and JMU, in particular). UD has lost plenty of FB rivals over the years (Temple, Lehigh & Bucknell) but has somehow managed to survive quite well. That's just the nature of things.

It would be a mistake to take much of the comments offered here by UD fans as anything other than common sense reasoning. Remove the name 'Villanova' and I'd offer the same comments about a school with a small fanbase (even by FCS standards), no means to landing a BCS ready stadium to call its own close to campus, and no apparent mechanism to fund a successful reclassification. Add to that a region & city that really doesn't care all that much about FBS FB and a program that has a history of failure at big time college FB. There's not much in the plus ledger that would lead a reasonable person to believe that FBS FB at that school would succeed.

About the only thing you're left with is the rationale that, by reclassifying, VU might somehow be better positioning its MBB program from a BEC reshuffling that might never happen. Of course, VU stands to lose million$ more as an FBS school (with FB and the added Title IX equivalancies for nonrevenue sports) than they ever could imagine in the FCS. All of that to protect a MBB program that nets less than $1.5M per year? Hopefully for its own sake, the VU admin demonstrates more common sense than some of the opinions offered by fans of its athletic programs.

[RookieWill]

[QUOTE=JMUNJ08;1538281]There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for this to come to reality but I notice most negative posts are coming from Nova's biggest FCS rival, Delaware. I sense some not being too happy with even a remote possibility of Nova leaving.
[QUOTE]

Absolutely true, but in all fairness to the Delaware fans - given their close proximity to Villanova, they're also more familiar with Villanova's issues that most any other school

[GannonFan]

[QUOTE=JMUNJ08;1538281]There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for this to come to reality but I notice most negative posts are coming from Nova's biggest FCS rival, Delaware. I sense some not being too happy with even a remote possibility of Nova leaving.
[QUOTE]

Absolutely true, but in all fairness to the Delaware fans - given their close proximity to Villanova, they're also more familiar with Villanova's issues that most any other school

And that is absolutely true. Most UD fans on here are extremely familiar with the marketplace around and in Philly. Heck, I'm a nova b-ball fan once football season is over (I'm a big Big-5 fan) so just being a fan of UD in football doesn't disqualify me or bias me in terms of commenting on nova's football potential.

If nova moves up, it doesn't harm or hurt UD in anyway. Like henfan said, UD's lost plenty of rivalries over the years and nova, despite the rancor, wasn't the biggest (Temple held that honor). And unless nova can offer the money, it's unlikely the rivalry will continue if nova moves up and doesn't play return games in Newark (nova will never be able to offer guarantee money to UD to come close to offsetting the loss in revenue UD would have in giving up a home game - besides, if nova ever plays at PPL park it would be playing in a stadium smaller than that in Newark). That would be a shame but life goes on.

But like I said before, there's just way too many issues standing in the way of nova being successful at the FBS level for it to happen. Stadium, funding, fanbase, future stability of the conference, etc. And I don't buy the argument that nova basketball couldn't hope to maintain a top national stature without the football conference - there are plenty of schools that excel in basketball without the football component. I think that's the red herring in all of this.

[Catsfan2]

I don't think it's a red herring at all. If the Big East were content to continue as is, Nova would be fine with that. It's not just basketball and football -- Nova is competitive with the Big East teams in other sports, both men's and women's. This whole discussion was the conference's idea, not Villanova's.

[DFW HOYA]

This whole discussion was the conference's idea, not Villanova's.

So why do you think the conference is not talking to Georgetown?

[RookieWill]

I would hope the big east is talking to gtown. Would love if nova upgraded that gtown would follow suit

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Hoyas all of a sudden "discover" the money and make a quantum leap to BCS football? Or the Big East funds it?

[NovaWildcat]

So why do you think the conference is not talking to Georgetown?

DFW - I asked this question many posts ago, but I'll ask again in case you missed it (since you're pretty adament about getting the Gtown in on this convo too). What is Georgetown's stance and commitment to football. It seems very little given their facilities and (lack of) any success recently. But you've made some implications that the school could move up, or at least is in the conversation. What gives?

[RookieWill]

Not to sound rude, but this seems farcical at best. You're suggesting that a privately owned corporation be forced to change a brand new privately owned $120 million dollar structure that has been open for less than two months to accomodate another company in a money losing venture (as is most of college football) 20 miles away from those most directly interested who have shown little to no support in the past even when provided with a quality and enviable product. While at the same time supporting two other organizations, the Philadelphia Union and Philadelphia Independence, who were intimately involved in the specific designing of that feature you want changed from 1300 miles away (not to mention that the UFL which plays its games Thursday to Saturday has been looking at PPL Park for over a year for expansion into the Philadelphia PA & Wilmington DE markets as an alternative to the overpriced Eagles, which would potentially drive the tenants to three different organizations all using the grass field during football season). Four different teams playing on a grass field in 2-3 days for weeks would end up with the UD-Richmond fiasco where the field is so craptacular you're playing home games in Piscataway.

As for transportation issues, yes the do exist, but the situation is neither as bad as some would lead you to believe on here, nor as good as though wishing to paint the rosiest of pictures. There is bus service and I-95 is only about a mile away. Those who are from the area know the Commodore Barry gets pretty congested, but just as with anything else on the east coast, if you actually want to go to the game or concert or beach you plan ahead and get there early.

Superman - I was recently told by someone close to the situation at Villanova, that the "soccer stadium" has been actively recruiting Villanova to play the majority of their games there. I would guess the "soccer stadium" is also actively recruiting other tenants, but they apparently would very much like to have Villanova on their field.

As someone who follows Nova sports extremely closely and who has been around the Nova to Big East football discussion since the last decision, I have never heard so much scuttlebut, rumors, etc. that suggest it is being strongly considered as it is now. I personally, put the odds at below 50-50, but if you asked me 3 months ago, I would have said 10-90, now I say closer to 49-51

[Anovafan]

I have to revise my former post, the window for this decision is now 90 days and I think the odds are now tipping to it becoming a reality, as much as it shocks me to type that. RookieWill is pretty much spot on with everything he has said in this thread.

[Go...gate]

I have to revise my former post, the window for this decision is now 90 days and I think the odds are now tipping to it becoming a reality, as much as it shocks me to type that. RookieWill is pretty much spot on with everything he has said in this thread.

Seriously, how the heck did this happen so fast? I am old enough to remember when Villanova dropped FB in '80. I applaud the move (I think it is great for the Big East) but hope the good Augustinian Fathers can handle the financial commitment.

[Anovafan]

This time, it is the Big East making the move. It has nothing to do with Villanova or the Augustinians (not that there are many of them left) or the current administration. The Big East is stepping up with some serious $$ now. Back when Uconn joined and Nova turned down the offer from the Big East, there was no money behind the offer. This time, there is, and it is going to be hard for Villanova to turn it down.

[pitpen]

This time, it is the Big East making the move. It has nothing to do with Villanova or the Augustinians (not that there are many of them left) or the current administration. The Big East is stepping up with some serious $$ now. Back when Uconn joined and Nova turned down the offer from the Big East, there was no money behind the offer. This time, there is, and it is going to be hard for Villanova to turn it down.

If Villanova ever has a game at Chester where they expect to outdraw UD, I plan on being there. No lie. It would be quite an accomplishment.

[carney2]

"Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

This time, it is the Big East making the move. It has nothing to do with Villanova or the Augustinians (not that there are many of them left) or the current administration. The Big East is stepping up with some serious $$ now. Back when Uconn joined and Nova turned down the offer from the Big East, there was no money behind the offer. This time, there is, and it is going to be hard for Villanova to turn it down.

Just curious, is the Big East offering start-up cost assistance only or are they also offering some kind of annual subsidy? While no one in the Big East has an 80-100K capacity stadium, many have 40K stadiums. UConn is averaging 37K fans, Rutgers IIRC more than that. That's a lot of annual revenue that I have trouble seeing Villanova matching especially if it plays half its games in Chester.

I guess I see the BCS schools going off into their own world in the near future. And that world is going to be a very expensive playpen. Keeping up with the Joneses will be with the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10, etc. Reminds me of when our division was founded back in the late 70's and how some schools saw the handwriting on the wall and opted for I-AA instead of course I-A was taking. I have no dog in this fight, just hope Nova realizes the arms race they're getting into with today's BCS world. xtwocentsx

[MplsBison]

Just curious, is the Big East offering start-up cost assistance only or are they also offering some kind of annual subsidy? While no one in the Big East has an 80-100K capacity stadium, many have 40K stadiums. UConn is averaging 37K fans, Rutgers IIRC more than that. That's a lot of annual revenue that I have trouble seeing Villanova matching especially if it plays half its games in Chester.

I guess I see the BCS schools going off into their own world in the near future. And that world is going to be a very expensive playpen. Keeping up with the Joneses will be with the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10, etc. Reminds me of when our division was founded back in the late 70's and how some schools saw the handwriting on the wall and opted for I-AA instead of course I-A was taking. I have no dog in this fight, just hope Nova realizes the arms race they're getting into with today's BCS world. xtwocentsx

But the FBS standard (that has never been enforced) is only 15k per home game. The soccer stadium can support that for 5-10 years while Villanova builds up its program.

If they can build a Big East winner, they can build their attendance and move to a bigger stadium.


So that said, if the Big East can offer them cash to cover the additional operational costs of a move up, then Nova will make due with the FBS minimum scholarships (90% of 85), minimum coaching salaries, recruiting budgets, etc. until they can build up from there.

[RookieWill]

Any monies from the big east will come from allowing Villanova to participate in the tv revenue share earlier than when they are a full member. In exchange, Villanova will play road games to most BE opponents without any guarantee money. It is free scheduling in exchange for earlier tv revenue. They actually did something similar with UCONN

[Go...gate]

So much for Villanova in the Patriot League.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let me just put it out there: any stadium with 16K capacity playing football will never, ever, ever, ever break even playing FBS football.

If the Union is serious about having Villanova as a true FBS school, they need a stadium that will average at least 30K. Period.

And while the chest-thumping of UD fans is a little over the top, they do have a point. On Saturdays you could have FBS Villanova and FCS Delaware playing games, with UD at a 23K sellout and (optimistically) Villanova with an 18K sellout. I can't believe that would sit well with anybody - the Priests, the fans, the Big East - anybody.

Ironically, an 16K venue would be perfect for continued FCS football.

[Catsfan2]

Somewhat interesting comments that I've heard from the athletic dept. -- Coach Talley is ambivalent about this, a lot of the other coaches are against it. However it's Jay Wright who is really pushing -- evidently FBS football somehow enhances basketball recruiting.

[RookieWill]

So much for Villanova in the Patriot League.

Actually, if anything, I think this increases the chances for Villanova to the Patriot League. Any time Villanova takes a hard look at the football team, anything could happen. I am hearing so much contradictory information on this potential move, I have no idea what to believe. What I do know is that Villanova is evaluating their options. When that happens, ANYTHING could happen.

LFN - FYI, soccer stadium holds 18,500 for soccer, probably could go a bit higher for football. Apparently, was designed to "easily" (whatever that means) accomodate an increase to 30,000. Finally, "the Brothers"? If you're implying the religious people who run Villanova, it is the "Priests". The Augustinians might have a Brother here or there in their order, but it is a religious order of Priests

[RookieWill]

Somewhat interesting comments that I've heard from the athletic dept. -- Coach Talley is ambivalent about this, a lot of the other coaches are against it. However it's Jay Wright who is really pushing -- evidently FBS football somehow enhances basketball recruiting.

It doesn't enhance basketball recruiting, persay, it enhances Villanova's chance to remain in the Big East - which is what Jay Wright wants

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Actually, if anything, I think this increases the chances for Villanova to the Patriot League. Any time Villanova takes a hard look at the football team, anything could happen. I am hearing so much contradictory information on this potential move, I have no idea what to believe. What I do know is that Villanova is evaluating their options. When that happens, ANYTHING could happen.

LFN - FYI, soccer stadium holds 18,500 for soccer, probably could go a bit higher for football. Apparently, was designed to "easily" (whatever that means) accomodate an increase to 30,000. Finally, "the Brothers"? If you're implying the religious people who run Villanova, it is the "Priests". The Augustinians might have a Brother here or there in their order, but it is a religious order of Priests

Apologies, and I corrected it in my original post.

Back to the subject at hand, however. You have to admit "we have a stadium we can move into immediately" and "we have a stadium that might be able to be expanded to the low end of an acceptable FBS venue" are two very different situations for Villanova. If it's situation 1), then it's a lot easier decision to go FBS than 2), where you have a lot of things that need to fall into place for it to happen - and even then, will it be acceptable to all the parties involved?

I want to say, too, that I don't have any issue with Villanova exploring the FBS option, even though I'm an FCS guy. I think you have to say that UConn's experience with it has been a huge success.

But Villanova's situation is still dogged by that darned stadium issue.

[Franks Tanks]

It doesn't enhance basketball recruiting, persay, it enhances Villanova's chance to remain in the Big East - which is what Jay Wright wants

Will Big East Football even be that attractive in 5-10 years? The "marquee" Big East teams like WVU. Pitt, and Rutgers may end up elsewhere in the future.

Big East football may include more Louisville like schools such as UCF and Memphis, not exactly peer schools for Nova. If Nova can make FBS work I dont see an issue with it. However, it does appear a lot has to fall in place to make the numbers work for Nova.

[Pard94]

I also think it is fair to evaluate whether or not fan interest in big time college football at Villanova would remain high when/if Nova starts losing. When one considers that football support is tenuous at best as it is...when Nova dominates, logic dictates fans would lose interest quick when Nova starts losing games to the likes of WVU and Rutgers on a regular basis. I don't mean that as a slam against Nova. It's reasonable to assume that the first couple of years after a transition would be rough. Also, all of this success has come under Andy Talley's watch. How many more years does he have in him and what happens if his heir isn't as successful as he has been? Granted that's an awful lot of speculation. I wouldn't bring it up if Nova currently sold out every game and enjoyed half the buzz that the basketball team gets but the fact is they don't. Throw into the mix that Nova has been down this road before and it hasn't worked.

In fact...if you are a Nova football fan you may want to be very leary of this proposition. History at Villanova demonstrates that it is much easier to simply pull the plug on a bloated, money draing FBS program. How confident are you that the administration would drop back down to FCS if FBS didn't work out?

[Anovafan]

The soccer stadium would be for FCS games in the beginning few years that would remain on the schedule or an out of conference FBS game, with the hopes of expanding the stadium at some point in the future for Big East games. Franklin Field would be for the initial Big East games. Citizen's Bank Ballpark would be for a late November marquee match-up. Keep the Temple game at the Linc. Keep Delaware on the schedule at Villanova stadium, add temp stands in the endzone, and continue to play them at the Tub every other year. The Stadium is certainly an issue, but there are ways around it. The Big East football share would immediately cover the football budget from the moment Villanova joins, and then the bowl revenue split would be above and beyond the share. If Villanova accepts.

Pard94, football won't be a money drain, as it is now. It will make money for the school by joining the Big East. If the Big East implodes at some point in the future, you could be very correct. Villanova would have to choose yet again whether to drop it or move back to the FCS level.

[henfan]

Keep Delaware on the schedule at Villanova stadium, add temp stands in the endzone, and continue to play them at the Tub every other year.

Extremely remote chance of that ever happening, especially if any portion of the deal involved Villanova Stadium. In all likelihood, the series would end.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW - I asked this question many posts ago, but I'll ask again in case you missed it (since you're pretty adament about getting the Gtown in on this convo too). What is Georgetown's stance and commitment to football. It seems very little given their facilities and (lack of) any success recently. But you've made some implications that the school could move up, or at least is in the conversation. What gives?

Georgetown is committed to football. Unfortunately, it has financial issues which preclude it from spending much more than it does, which is a source of regular irritation to most PL fans on this board. If it could afford 20 or 40 or 63 (or even 85) scholarships, great, but it does not. Most Georgetown athletic teams exist below the scholarship numbers intended, even men's basketball from time to time. Concurrently, the school has no desire to drop 15 sports just to add football scholarships, nor should it.

What has raised my concern in these Villanova threads is the assertion that the Big East is offering a direct financial incentive to Villanova to play Big East football, yet has not (or more likely, will not) done the same for the other I-AA team under its membership. If Georgetown had the confidence to know that a capital investment in football by, say, 2018, would return that + some considerable TV revenues which would allow it to better fund other sports by being I-A and playing at FedEx Field, then that's a decision it could make, but it reads that the Big East leadership does not want to even make the offer.

Why won't the Big East consider it? My thought is that they don't want to discuss it as to not upset the non-football schools on the one hand, and also not to antagonize the I-A schools who do not want to sacrifice a non-conference game to play what they would consider to be a non-conmpetitive team that would bring down the league's BCS ratings. (It's a whole lot easier to raise the expansion issue with the I-AA national champions than a 0-11 team that has won only one conference game in four years.) Unfortunately, this also sends a message that the Big East does not want Georgetown should it pursue BCS-only members in some future realignment, and Georgetown cannot support its present level of basketball as some sort of MAAC-like Catholic hybrid where the cost of renting Verizon Center to average 5,000 a game to see Providence and Seton Hall would be a fiscal hemorrhage.

But, back to football...lack of success carries a lot of baggage, including major donors who don't give and facilities that don't get built. The PL scholarship issue portends to be a more imminent issue than the Big East, if only that the competitive realities of six scholarship PL teams and one with none further threatens program viability and the ability to even recruit. How many kids will choose $30,000 in loans a year at Georgetown vs. a free ride everywhere else? The scholarship decision will be made independent of GU anyway, so that's probably why the school hasn't taken a position on it. A man without a house doesn't care if it rains or pours, he still gets soaked. The decision on what Georgetown does about it is its call, however.

Georgetown is OK playing in the PL absent any better options (which do not appear to be forthcoming from its parent conference). But no matter how much the Lehigh Valley press would appreciate it, continued winless seasons in the PL going forward must be corrected.

[NovaWildcat]

Somewhat interesting comments that I've heard from the athletic dept. -- Coach Talley is ambivalent about this, a lot of the other coaches are against it. However it's Jay Wright who is really pushing -- evidently FBS football somehow enhances basketball recruiting.

The fact of the matter is the athletic department has very little, if any say in the matter. The top dog there is Jay Wright, and he has the biggest pull with Fr. Donahue (president) and the board of trustees. Of course the other coaches will be against it because then their programs will get even less attention than they already do- its completely for selfish reasons and has no bearing on the decision.

I feel for Talley in this situation because he's stuck in the middle of this mess. Its not like this is a start-up program - he has a current team to coach at the Fcs level. It's also unknown if he would ever coach an FBS version of the cats.

[MplsBison]

I don't see the fact that Big East football may not exist in current form 5-10 years from now (due to losing members to Big Ten, SEC, ACC or Big XII) as a call to inaction by the Big East.


They have to assume that they aren't going to lose any more members, otherwise what's the point? WHy not just give up and disband now? It's very possible that they will but on the other hand I can very much see the Big Ten, SEC, etc. saying "you know...when we got right down to it and really looked at it...going to 14 or 16 wasn't the goldmine that everyone thought it was going to be". (there might also be some government pressure to avoid super-conferences if it would mean that current BCS teams are left out in the cold).

And in the case that the Big East football conference will in fact live on as is...they need to add more football members without adding more bball members because 18 or 20 members is not reasonable (lets be honest, 16 members probably isn't reasonable either...but now that it is what it is, no one is getting kicked out).

All of that points to Villanova being the most feasible of the current non-Notre Dame bball members with a fball team that could move into the BE football conference.


And if the Big Ten, SEC, etc. do actually raid the BE? Then it won't matter anyway, all the good teams will be gone and the leftovers will either go independent or join up with CUSA or perhaps a new eastern FBS conference with some FCS move-ups.

[Anovafan]

I doubt the Delaware series would end, but you could be correct on the venue. It helps Delaware locally and nationally to continue to play Villanova, and they may get a BB game out of it. If anyone killed the series, it would be on the Delaware side, not Villanova.

[GannonFan]

I doubt the Delaware series would end, but you could be correct on the venue. It helps Delaware locally and nationally to continue to play Villanova, and they may get a BB game out of it. If anyone killed the series, it would be on the Delaware side, not Villanova.

The BB angle is silly - there's little money involved in that and even if UD got nova to come to the Bob it still wouldn't be a big carrot. And heck, nova's played UD in b-ball before (even in Newark) even without a football agreement so that situation wouldn't change. Heck, nova could get a nice easy W and an RPI boost for playing on the road against a mid major.

As for football, it would be interesting if nova even offered to play Delaware in Newark every other year - that would make them the only FBS school to regularly play on the road at an FCS team. Heck, outside of the Sun Belt and the bad MAC teams, you almost never see an FBS team play at an FCS team, and this would most likely be the only BCS team to play at an FCS school, on a regular basis nonetheless.

Delaware could be inclined to do that - they've made a push recently to play as many OOC games at home as possible (hard to find people willing to cough up the $500k profit UD gets per home game) and playing a home and home series would be like getting $250k per year from nova, which isn't something nova could afford anyway in terms of guarantees.

The sticking point could be playing at villanova stadium - the place can barely hold 10k right now (restroom and concession facilities are abhorrent, and then there's the parking issue) - if they did it, you'd almost want Delaware to force nova to play elsewhere.

The only way the series wouldn't end would be for nova to agree to play in Newark every other year - nova couldn't afford what Delaware would ask for to have the game always played at home for nova.

[bluehenbillk]

It's still a stadium issue, here are the facts:

- There's not going to be a FBS-sized stadium built anywhere near Lancaster Ave.

- The MLS Stadium in Chester holds 18-19K. I've heard it could be increased from anywhere to 25-30K, the same size many CAA schools are ramping up to. Does VU playing in Chester sound absurd to anyone other than me, and I'm not even a VU grad?

- Highly doubt CBP would be a possible venue, it's a baseball only stadium, have you seen how dumb FB games look at venues like At&T Field in San Francisco? They wouldn't give any dates either till November I'm sure.

- TU holds a lease at the Linc till 2018 and from what I've heard theough TU channels, there is litttle chance of it not being renewed. All is tied into the stadium loans the Eagles got from the state of PA to build the Linc in the first place.

- Franklin Field: May be the only option but has plenty of negatives, share with Penn who'll pick dates 1st, tailgating in parking garages?, how friggin old is that place?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like ti to happen, I'd go see a few games, but where is the keyest word of all.

A lot to do about nothing until next year at least, nothing allowed to happen until 2012.

[Anovafan]

The BB angle is not silly, Delaware would love to have Villanova on its BB schedule year in and year out. If you don't believe that, you are being silly.

I think Villanova would be willing to come to the Tub for at least the next 5 years if they move up to FBS. After that, who knows.

[NovaWildcat]

If Villanova can't turn a profit on home games in the FBS, then it won't be leaving the CAA. There is very little chance of VU agreeing to play in Newark when it can play someone else at home - you cannot justify to your fan base playing a road game at a FCS. If Delaware isn't willing to play at villanova then I'd assume the deal is dead.

[henfan]

The only way the series wouldn't end would be for nova to agree to play in Newark every other year - nova couldn't afford what Delaware would ask for to have the game always played at home for nova.

While continuing the series would be problematic enough for both schools financially, the competitive aspect may be even more of an issue. From UD's perspective, there would be little competitive incentive to play a VU with an additional 22 schollies every year. As well, Keeler has already indicated his scheduling preference would not be for many future FBS games in favor of home games against FCS competition.

Not sure why a school trying to escape an FCS label and market itself as the region's FBS choice would want to continue associating with its former FCS rival, let alone continue to play games at the former rival's stadium.

UD-VU has been a terrific FCS rivalry. Alas, it is not the most important thing to either AD and will go away if VU reclassifies. Many of us recall what happened when an even more heated FB rival, Temple, joined the Big East.

[RookieWill]

It's still a stadium issue, here are the facts:

Don't get me wrong, I'd like ti to happen, I'd go see a few games, but where is the keyest word of all.

A lot to do about nothing until next year at least, nothing allowed to happen until 2012.

Again, I can't argue with your logic - it is sound. However, from what I understand, the stadium situation is not really a concern as they contemplate this move. There are lots of other impediments that are far more important (money, academics, university mission, other university priorities, etc.). A move IS being considered, but it is VERY MUCH no forgone conclusion. We shall see, but stadium will not be the reason they don't move

[superman7515]

Why would Delaware love to have Nova on it's basketball schedule every year? Delaware is not a "basketball school". I went to a game last year with maybe 300 people actually in the stands. The men's team is garbage and has been since the only decent coach they've had in the last generation left for Notre Dame. They've never been competitive, let alone good, in the CAA. The women's team crushes the men's team in local interest (thanks to Elena DelleDonne and the fact UD's women have actually done well in the CAA) and the men's team isn't getting any better with the clown-shoes coach Monte Ross that they have now. It's not even a "the fans will travel" issue. I was there in 2008 for the opening game of UD vs Rutgers, another Big East team very close to Newark, and they didn't even have 1000 people there. And that's a Big East team UD could have actually been able to beat and with Rutgers a team their fans thought they could beat... Still no one showed up. Basketball doesn't matter at UD.

[Pard94]

Georgetown is committed to football.

That dog's just not hunting DFW. It pains me to say it but actions speak louder than words.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Why would Delaware love to have Nova on it's basketball schedule every year? Delaware is not a "basketball school". I went to a game last year with maybe 300 people actually in the stands. The men's team is garbage and has been since the only decent coach they've had in the last generation left for Notre Dame. They've never been competitive, let alone good, in the CAA.

FWIW, Delaware men's basketball averaged 2,479 last season (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/8753820042742b01b8b6be967b4a3893/Awide_Mbkbattlists.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=8753820042742b01b8b6be967b4a3893).

[NovaWildcat]

Off the bat, UD would make in the 60-75K range for a one shot deal at the pavilion. If it were a 2-for-1 deal, then they would get all the publicity, tv, exposure and local fan excitement that occurs when a low mid major plays host (or even visits) a highly ranked Big East team. All this stuff is huge in recruiting, and with a half decent coach, can advance the program.

Now I have no idea if this would actually be involved in football discussions or if the Delaware would want to play at an FBS villanova, but to suggest UD would not have any interest in playing us in basketball is s little ridiculous.

[NovaWildcat]

Off the bat, UD would make in the 60-75K range for a one shot deal at the pavilion. If it were a 2-for-1 deal, then they would get all the publicity, tv, exposure and local fan excitement that occurs when a low mid major plays host (or even visits) a highly ranked Big East team. All this stuff is huge in recruiting, and with a half decent coach, can advance the program.

Now I have no idea if this would actually be involved in football discussions or if the Delaware would want to play at an FBS villanova, but to suggest UD would not have any interest in playing us in basketball is s little ridiculous.

[superman7515]

FWIW, Delaware men's basketball averaged 2479 last season (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/8753820042742b01b8b6be967b4a3893/Awide_Mbkbattlists.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=8753820042742b01b8b6be967b4a3893).

Yes, Delaware average 2479 last year, but I assure by the end of the season the actual number of people sitting in the stands was much lower than the "announced" attendance which is of course tickets sold. And 2479 isn't exactly burning down the Bob, that's not even the in the top 100 for attendance in men's division 1 basketball. By comparison, Delaware's womens team averaged 2786 (47th in the nation). There's simply more support for women's basketball with Elena in town. In 2009 UD's women average 1110, attendance increased by an average of 1676 per game when she started playing for her hometown team, and Delaware came out to watch, to the tune of giving them the 5th largest increase in attendance in Division 1 nationwide. UD's men won't get that kind of boost just because of Villanova coming to play.

[superman7515]

Off the bat, UD would make in the 60-75K range for a one shot deal at the pavilion. If it were a 2-for-1 deal, then they would get all the publicity, tv, exposure and local fan excitement that occurs when a low mid major plays host (or even visits) a highly ranked Big East team. All this stuff is huge in recruiting, and with a half decent coach, can advance the program.

Now I have no idea if this would actually be involved in football discussions or if the Delaware would want to play at an FBS villanova, but to suggest UD would not have any interest in playing us in basketball is s little ridiculous.

The school might, the coach might, but the state of Delaware as a whole would not care. Basketball in Delaware is not a large interest. I've lived here pretty much my entire life except for living in NYC for a year after graduating. Pro football is king, then baseball, then Nascar (check out the 100k+ attendance at Dover International if you think I'm kidding, although I personally have 0 interest in it), then you get into college football vs pro basketball, a smattering of hockey, but by and large college basketball is not a draw in the state.

[RookieWill]

Delaware had a nice draw for hoops back when turtleneck Brey was the coach. If you win games, people will come. They've got a great arena down there that fans will come out for.

FWIW, Delaware IS playing at the Pavilion this year in what I understand is the first of 2 or 3 games (VU might be doing a 2 for 1 with Delaware). As far as football is concerned, if VU does actually upgrade to FBS, I would like them to play Delaware regularly or semi-regularly. If they don't, it won't be a big deal. It is what it is

[GannonFan]

Again, I can't argue with your logic - it is sound. However, from what I understand, the stadium situation is not really a concern as they contemplate this move. There are lots of other impediments that are far more important (money, academics, university mission, other university priorities, etc.). A move IS being considered, but it is VERY MUCH no forgone conclusion. We shall see, but stadium will not be the reason they don't move

But the stadium does matter because it ties into the whole calculation of whether nova will make money or not playing at the FBS level. If they can't get more than 20k people to the games, they're going to bleed money. The Big East doesn't have pockets big enough to prop up a school so nova's going to have to hold their own, or at least close to it. Having to pay rent to play somewhere (Franklin Field or PPL Park are the only legit places to play - Citizen's Bank is just pure folly - and they won't be free, and that's even before you talk about the shared costs to improve those places just to play there in the first place) already puts nova in a little bit of a hole. So once you start talking money, the stadium stuff comes front and center.

[GannonFan]

Delaware had a nice draw for hoops back when turtleneck Brey was the coach. If you win games, people will come. They've got a great arena down there that fans will come out for.

FWIW, Delaware IS playing at the Pavilion this year in what I understand is the first of 2 or 3 games (VU might be doing a 2 for 1 with Delaware). As far as football is concerned, if VU does actually upgrade to FBS, I would like them to play Delaware regularly or semi-regularly. If they don't, it won't be a big deal. It is what it is

Delaware used to sell out the place (5k) when they were good. But for a good 10 years now, UD basketball has stunk. It wouldn't matter if nova came to the Bob or not, it won't sell that many more tickets if the team continues not to win. So you're first point is right - if UD wins, the fans will show up. But it won't matter one way or the other if it's nova or someone else coming in to play.

[RookieWill]

But the stadium does matter because it ties into the whole calculation of whether nova will make money or not playing at the FBS level. If they can't get more than 20k people to the games, they're going to bleed money. The Big East doesn't have pockets big enough to prop up a school so nova's going to have to hold their own, or at least close to it. Having to pay rent to play somewhere (Franklin Field or PPL Park are the only legit places to play - Citizen's Bank is just pure folly - and they won't be free, and that's even before you talk about the shared costs to improve those places just to play there in the first place) already puts nova in a little bit of a hole. So once you start talking money, the stadium stuff comes front and center.

That's not a stadium issue, that is an attendance issue. If there is demand for 50,000 tickets, they play more of the games at Franklin Field. If there is demand for 20,000, they play them more of them at PPL. Oh, and rent will not approach the $1 million Temple pays for the Linc on an annual basis

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

If the ticket demand is only 20K, then IMO making this move is ridiculous. Maybe that would fly in the MAC, Sun Belt or CUSA, but not to compete at the BCS level. How wouldn't the budget be hemorrhaging? Do you really think that averaging 20-25K fans will allow you to compete at the BCS level? Will you be happy to become the perennial cellar dweller in football just to protect basketball?

Getting past your semantics about stadium vs. attendance, I agree with GF. Without capacity there can't be revenue. (Believe me I know first hand how painful this can be, i.e. Cowell Stadium.)

And I'll bet a growler of my local Ten Penny Ale that the Big East would never allow Villanova to play at the Tub once Nova was a full member of the Big East Football Conference. Maybe during their early transition years, but that's it.

Personally, I think the football schools need to break off and convince Notre Dame to join them. The Irish would be between a rock and hard place without the BE bowl tie in. Even with their popularity, how many BCS bowl bids would they get with a Independent schedule full of Purdue, Indiana, Army, Navy, Air Force, Stanford, SMU, Duke, Wake, etc. even with Michigan and SoCal? What would their schedule look like if BCS becomes four mega conferences or even if it becomes six conferences with twelve teams? xtwocentsx

Something to keep in mind is that UConn's off campus football facility, Rentschler Field, is closer to their in-state alumni base and provides easier access off I-84 than traversing the two lane roads into their Storrs campus. I don't see any similar advantage for Nova with Chester.

I just don't see how this could be feasible for Nova unless they play in Franklin Field and average over 35K fans. I didn't think UConn was going to do it even with their virtual monopoly of fans in CT, but they have. I don't know if Nova can pull it off. Seems even riskier to me.

[pbr1893]

Would Nova play at the Linc then? Does Nova have the $$$ to build a new on campus stadium? I suppose you could try and split time with Penn at Franklin Field. Just curious as to how the stadium situation would work out.

If Nova joined Big East football right now I think they could be at least a 5th or 6th place team. Give Nova 22 more scholarships, some time to adjust, and a bigger stadium/better facilities, and they could be right there with Pitt and WV.

now all you need are fans...xwhistlex

[blukeys]

Something to keep in mind is that UConn's off campus football facility, Rentschler Field, is closer to their in-state alumni base and provides easier access off I-84 than traversing the two lane roads into their Storrs campus. I don't see any similar advantage for Nova with Chester.


Anyone who has actually been to Chester would agree with your sentiment. xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[superman7515]

Overall Crime Statistics:
National per 100,000: 4479.3
Chester, PA: 6610.8

Violent Crime Statistics:
National: 553.5
Chester: 2652.9

Murder:
National: 7
Chester: 48.5

Rape:
National: 33.1
Chester: 55.6

Robberies:
National: 205.8
Chester: 649.8

Aggravated Assault:
National: 336.5
Chester: 1898

The FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program rates Chester an F in Burglary, F in Murder, F in Forcible Rape, F in Robbery, F in Aggravated Assault, F in Auto Theft, C in Larceny, and F in overall grade.

[MplsBison]

Overall Crime Statistics:
National per 100,000: 4479.3
Chester, PA: 6610.8

Violent Crime Statistics:
National: 553.5
Chester: 2652.9

Murder:
National: 7
Chester: 48.5

Rape:
National: 33.1
Chester: 55.6

Robberies:
National: 205.8
Chester: 649.8

Aggravated Assault:
National: 336.5
Chester: 1898

The FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program rates Chester an F in Burglary, F in Murder, F in Forcible Rape, F in Robbery, F in Aggravated Assault, F in Auto Theft, C in Larceny, and F in overall grade.

These are charges or convictions? These are against people from Chester (but could have happened elsewhere) or people from anywhere (crime alleged to have happened in Chester)?

[RookieWill]

Chester is a tough town, probably the most dangerous place in southeastern PA. Fortunately, the soccer stadium is not in downtown Chester and is isolated from any specific criminal areas. The soccer games have been wonderful events so far and there haven't even isolated incidents.

I brought my young kids down for an evening game and at no point was I concerned for their safety (and yes, I live on the main line)

[Franks Tanks]

These are charges or convictions? These are against people from Chester (but could have happened elsewhere) or people from anywhere (crime alleged to have happened in Chester)?

Those would be reported crimes within the Chester City limits.

[MplsBison]

Those would be reported crimes within the Chester City limits.

So all that has to happen is for a bunch of people who don't live in Chester to go there an report a bunch of crimes, regardless if anything happened.

How does Chester compare to other Phila. suburbs, like say, Camden?

[Bogus Megapardus]

So all that has to happen is for a bunch of people who don't live in Chester to go there an report a bunch of crimes, regardless if anything happened.



Yes, that's precicely what happens. Thanks for clearing that up.

[RookieWill]

Camden and Chester are very similar - both cities with significant problems. There probably is no more dangerous city in Pennsylvania than Chester. There are rougher spots in Philly, but border to border, chester is a toughest. Of course, as i mentioned the stadium is isolated from the tough spots

[Dignan]

So all that has to happen is for a bunch of people who don't live in Chester to go there an report a bunch of crimes, regardless if anything happened.

It's a flash-mob conspiracy!

[Franks Tanks]

So all that has to happen is for a bunch of people who don't live in Chester to go there an report a bunch of crimes, regardless if anything happened.

How does Chester compare to other Phila. suburbs, like say, Camden?

Nobody who doesnt live in Chester goes to Chester. Unless they are going Crozier (a hospital).

If anything many crimes that occur in the city go unreported.

[henfan]

Those who have lived in the Philly or Wilmington area for any length of time and have been to Chester understand the situation just a little better than someone from Minnesota who has never been there.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Tip o' the hat to the players and coaches at Widener University. They have to put up with Chester every day. Don't know how they do it.

[RookieWill]

FWIW - Nova got a verbal yesterday from a local RB out of LaSalle College High School (Pennsylvania's defending state champions). Apparently, the coaches are informing recruits of the potential for an upgrade:

"But 'Nova's at the top of I-AA," Adbur-Rahman said, mindful that the Wildcats last season won the national title. "Plus, there's some talk that they could be part of the Big East very soon. It's nothing they're saying is definite, but it's out there. The coaches talked about it.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/dailynews/breaking/sports/20100817_La_Salles_Abdur-Rahman_commits_to_Villanova_football.html#ixzz0wxp SimzC

[MplsBison]

Camden and Chester are very similar - both cities with significant problems. There probably is no more dangerous city in Pennsylvania than Chester. There are rougher spots in Philly, but border to border, chester is a toughest. Of course, as i mentioned the stadium is isolated from the tough spots

Seems like pretty easy problems to solve: 1) evict all low rent tenets, 2) raze all low rent housing, 3) re-zone for single family homes >$250k only

[Franks Tanks]

Seems like pretty easy problems to solve: 1) evict all low rent tenets, 2) raze all low rent housing, 3) re-zone for single family homes >$250k only

http://camdentomorrow.webs.com/1.jpg


Get started solving that easy problem.

[henfan]

FWIW - Nova got a verbal yesterday from a local RB out of LaSalle College High School (Pennsylvania's defending state champions). Apparently, the coaches are informing recruits of the potential for an upgrade...

Of course the coaches are going to talk about it. It wouldn't be the first time a school attempted to lure recruits with plans that might never happen. Heck, it's not likely even the first time that VU coaches dangled the Big East carrot in front of their recruits. They've probably been doing it since before the first failed attempt at reclassification. It's not unscrupulous to pull that tactic at all; it's just all part of the recruiting game. VU does it. UD does it. Just about every school in the country makes promises to recruits that they know or suspect they won't be able to keep.

[RookieWill]

Of course the coaches are going to talk about it. It wouldn't be the first time a school attempted to lure recruits with plans that might never happen. Heck, it's not likely even the first time that VU coaches dangled the Big East carrot in front of their recruits. They've probably been doing it since before the first failed attempt at reclassification. It's not unscrupulous to pull that tactic at all; it's just all part of the recruiting game. VU does it. UD does it. Just about every school in the country makes promises to recruits that they know or suspect they won't be able to keep.

No question coaches can use what ever tactic they can. Having said that, I've been reading about kids verballing and committing to Nova for a very long time and have not heard a quote like that. Obviously, this is not saying it is going to happen, just IMHO further evidence that it is certainly being seriously discussed

[henfan]

When the conference commissioner says that an issue is being considered that is an indication of serious discussion. Second hand info passed to a verbal recruit from coaches who are doing everything they can to land him can hardly be considered grist for the mill.

[Franks Tanks]

I see Nova also picked up the Polony kid from up here in the Lehigh Valley. A very highly rated recruit, he was expected to go to an ACC or Big East school. Very nice addition for Nova.

[RookieWill]

I see Nova also picked up the Polony kid from up here in the Lehigh Valley. A very highly rated recruit, he was expected to go to an ACC or Big East school. Very nice addition for Nova.

Maybe he just did go to a Big East school . . .

[Franks Tanks]

Perhaps, but even if Nova decided to move today it will be a few years before they play competitive BE football.

[Husky Alum]

Northeastern recruited student athletes for 50 years with the "we're going to have an on campus stadium by the time that you graduate" schtick.

I have a print of the 1959 Master Plan with an on campus stadium.

I've seen drawings from the mid 1960s with an on campus stadium.

There were plans in the 1970s for a 8K stadium to be built on top of a renovated Cabot Gym.

The plans in the 1980s and 90s revolved around a 10K seat on campus stadium on Huntington Avenue where Wentworth University's Sweeney Field now is.

Then in the 2000s we had the lovely "Kraft/Revolution" Stadium.

No one talked to recruits about sheer folly more than Northeastern, and now we're tailgating at women's soccer games!!!

[henfan]

The plans in the 1980s and 90s revolved around a 10K seat on campus stadium on Huntington Avenue where Wentworth University's Sweeney Field now is.

A high school buddy of mine was recruited and signed with NU under the auspices that the new FB stadium would be constructed over top a parking garage along Huntington Ave. He said the pictures were beautiful. Probably just as beautiful as the idea of kids being recruited by an FCS program someday playing FB in the Big East.

[RookieWill]

As big as a joke the Northeastern stadium was, I loved watching games there.

[RookieWill]

A high school buddy of mine was recruited and signed with NU under the auspices that the new FB stadium would be constructed over top a parking garage along Huntington Ave. He said the pictures were beautiful. Probably just as beautiful as the idea of kids being recruited by an FCS program someday playing FB in the Big East.

I will be as surprised as anyone when it is offical, but I was just told it is a "done deal" that Nova is moving up

[Franks Tanks]

I will be as surprised as anyone when it is offical, but I was just told it is a "done deal" that Nova is moving up


Nova will be the first private school to move from FCS to FBS. Very interesting. They also have a very unique situation with full BE membership and a football conference starved for new blood.

[henfan]

I will be as surprised as anyone when it is offical, but I was just told it is a "done deal" that Nova is moving up

Told by whom? Some guy named 'Uncle Ed' on a Villanova message board?

According to Vince Necastro, VU's AD, "the school is not currently engaged in any serious talks about a move to the FBS--or to the Big East." http://collegefootball.about.com/b/2010/08/09/villanova-responds-to-big-east-rumors.htm

Maybe Uncle Ed has deeper insight to VU's FB future than the school's AD.

[Franks Tanks]

Told by whom? Some guy named 'Uncle Ed' on a Villanova message board?

According to Vince Necastro, VU's AD, "the school is not currently engaged in any serious talks about a move to the FBS--or to the Big East." http://collegefootball.about.com/b/2010/08/09/villanova-responds-to-big-east-rumors.htm

Maybe Uncle Ed has deeper insight to VU's FB future than the school's AD.

Well the circumstances may have changed since August 9th. Such as the BE stepping up with cash to sweeten the pot.

[RookieWill]

I actually know UncleEd very well, but he is not who told me it is a done deal. You should actually reach out to KC Keeler and ask him what he thinks. I suspect his response will surprise you.

As far as Vince is concerned, there is ZERO value that would come out of him telling the press that "Villanova is strongly considering this move", until they're ready to make the move. Also, a decision of this magnitude is NOT being made in the athletic department

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I will be as surprised as anyone when it is offical, but I was just told it is a "done deal" that Nova is moving up

I don't think any deal will be official until there is some public flotation of a stadium solution that is acceptable to everyone. While Northeastern's plans never got off the tarmac, they were at least floated publicly and discussed by politicians and the like in the local press. If there is an announcement coming, it will have been in utter stealth mode - a bad idea when third parties (Chester state government, Philly Union officials, potentially Franklin Field officials, perhaps the Governor's office) need to be on board.

Imagine the humiliation if Villanova were to announce the move up - to then find reports that no FBS school with a stadium with 30,000 capacity or less "makes money". I'm not saying it can't happen, but it does require a sales job and some public opinion on its side. Without some movement in that direction, I'm not putting a lot of stock in the rumors.

[RookieWill]

LFN - Not exactly sure what you mean. IF this is a real deal (again, I am not saying it is, only saying what I have heard from good sources) then Villanova will feel 110% comfortable with the stadium situation out of the gate. They will have had conversations (and probably agreements or term sheets) already with Franklin Field and/or PPL park that 1) they're comfortable with, 2) the big east is comfortable with, and 3) the landlords are comfortable with. Villanova would NOT commit to this move if there was any uncertainty about where they were playing.

All the more reason for Vince Nicastro to say "no substantive conversations" are happening until all ducks are in a row

[carney2]

It would, to me, be unimaginable. Someone waving a big check in your face ultimately has to give way to the reality of empty seats and a school and administration (a new bunch because the people who made this decision will either be dead or on rocking chairs at the home for retired clerics) that will have to deal with being the poster child for Albert Einstein's "doing the same thing over again and expecting different results." It is very difficult to see this working out well in Philadelphia no matter how large the checks from the Big Least.

[RookieWill]

It would, to me, be unimaginable. Someone waving a big check in your face ultimately has to give way to the reality of empty seats and a school and administration (a new bunch because the people who made this decision will either be dead or on rocking chairs at the home for retired clerics) that will have to deal with being the poster child for Albert Einstein's "doing the same thing over again and expecting different results." It is very difficult to see this working out well in Philadelphia no matter how large the checks from the Big Least.

I think this is sound reasoning - but I'll just throw the counter to it - if you're the leadership of a school that is fundamentally defined by its basketball program, would you be willing to NOT upgrade and find your basketball program in the Atlantic 10 (or functional equivalent) along side schools like St. Joe's, St. Bonaventure's, and Duquesne? Remember, as I stated way above, this is not a decision driven for football purposes, it is a decision driven by BASKETBALL purposes

[MplsBison]

I don't think any deal will be official until there is some public flotation of a stadium solution that is acceptable to everyone. While Northeastern's plans never got off the tarmac, they were at least floated publicly and discussed by politicians and the like in the local press. If there is an announcement coming, it will have been in utter stealth mode - a bad idea when third parties (Chester state government, Philly Union officials, potentially Franklin Field officials, perhaps the Governor's office) need to be on board.

Imagine the humiliation if Villanova were to announce the move up - to then find reports that no FBS school with a stadium with 30,000 capacity or less "makes money". I'm not saying it can't happen, but it does require a sales job and some public opinion on its side. Without some movement in that direction, I'm not putting a lot of stock in the rumors.

Boise St had football revenue of 8.5 million in 2008-09, compared with 5.3 million expenses. Their stadium seats 33.5k.

It can be done.


Villanova has to become the Boise of the east if this is going to work out financially. Maybe that's a dream...but that's what they're going to attempt.

[Franks Tanks]

Stupid question.

Isnt there an attendance requirement to move up?

[RookieWill]

15,000 paid or actual. No more stadium size requirement

[henfan]

As far as Vince is concerned, there is ZERO value that would come out of him telling the press that "Villanova is strongly considering this move", until they're ready to make the move. Also, a decision of this magnitude is NOT being made in the athletic department

There's also no harm to be done in Necastro responding that VU is investigating/studying the possibility of FBS FB but that nothing has been decided, if in fact that was what was happening. Happens all the time. In fact, what Necastro said is just the opposite. So Vince is either breaking one of the Commandments, he's been seriously misquoted or he's telling the truth. His definitive statements really leave little room for misinterpretation.

Any type of reclassification decision doesn't have to be driven by the AD for him to at least be aware of what's going on around him. In any case, there's absolutely no way that Necastro wouldn't be more clued in to the situation than you, me, KC Keeler or anonymous message board sources.

[Franks Tanks]

How does Nova plan to meet that criteria?

[RookieWill]

There is absolutely harm to be done. You don't want your fans and alumni to be excited about the potential of something that you're not sure is going to happen. Vince Nicastro (it is an I, not an E) wants people to be excited about this year's villanova team. If he openly admits Villanova is thinking about moving to the Big East, all of a sudden Andy Talley is getting bombarded with questions, the players are, etc. It becomes a circus for a team trying to defend its national title at the FCS level.

If you're villanova, you ONLY acknowledge this is real when it IS real and a decision is made.

Look, if you want to believe what Vince Nicastro said, feel free

[Bogus Megapardus]

If you're villanova, you ONLY acknowledge this is real when it IS real and a decision is made.



Absolutely correct - even if the decision has been made and the details have been ironed out, it still makes no sense to announce if it is going to interfere with the current season and be a distraction to the coaches and players. Winter break after the FCS championship might make more sense.

[henfan]

If you're villanova, you ONLY acknowledge this is real when it IS real and a decision is made.

You mean like the school selling recruits on the notion that VU is considering FB reclassification? What a load of crap, Will. We know that VU fans, players and apparently the coaches are ALREADY talking about the Big East, thanks to Marinatto's comment. If Nicastro is somehow sworn to secrecy, he'd apparently be the only person associated with VU subjected to it.

If you want to believe that anonymous sources are the final word on this subject, feel free. Just don't be shocked when others cast serious doubts about what you're writing.

[carney2]

Boise St had football revenue of 8.5 million in 2008-09, compared with 5.3 million expenses. Their stadium seats 33.5k.

It can be done.

Not in Philadelphia. It's been tried over and over. It just doesn't work if it isn't packaged in Iggles green.

[RookieWill]

You mean like the school selling recruits on the notion that VU is considering FB reclassification? What a load of crap, Will. We know that VU fans, players and apparently the coaches are ALREADY talking about the Big East, thanks to Marinatto's comment. If Nicastro is somehow sworn to secrecy, he'd apparently be the only person associated with VU subjected to it.

If you want to believe that anonymous sources are the final word on this subject, feel free. Just don't be shocked when others cast serious doubts about what you're writing.

I have no problem if you doubt me or my sources. Hell, I doubt my sources! I am only communicating what I have been told.

However, LOGIC dictates that you should take what Vince says with a grain of salt

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is absolutely harm to be done. You don't want your fans and alumni to be excited about the potential of something that you're not sure is going to happen. Vince Nicastro (it is an I, not an E) wants people to be excited about this year's villanova team. If he openly admits Villanova is thinking about moving to the Big East, all of a sudden Andy Talley is getting bombarded with questions, the players are, etc. It becomes a circus for a team trying to defend its national title at the FCS level.

If you're villanova, you ONLY acknowledge this is real when it IS real and a decision is made.


Absolutely correct - even if the decision has been made and the details have been ironed out, it still makes no sense to announce if it is going to interfere with the current season and be a distraction to the coaches and players. Winter break after the FCS championship might make more sense.

First of all, wouldn't announcing it now be less of a distraction than letting this drag on unnecessarily for three months?

And second of all, I think it's really about getting the stadium plans done and the politicians on board, not fans and alumni. And no matter how you slice it, there are going to be a lot of parties to get in line. I just find it incredibly hard to believe that "Villanova FBS football! In Chester!" is such a slam dunk with everyone involved. Someone even said that Talley himself was ambivalent - if he's ambivalent, then you've got to think that there are a few BOT members, politicians, etc. that probably need selling on the idea at the very least.

[aceinthehole]

I think this is sound reasoning - but I'll just throw the counter to it - if you're the leadership of a school that is fundamentally defined by its basketball program, would you be willing to NOT upgrade and find your basketball program in the Atlantic 10 (or functional equivalent) along side schools like St. Joe's, St. Bonaventure's, and Duquesne? Remember, as I stated way above, this is not a decision driven for football purposes, it is a decision driven by BASKETBALL purposes

For the record, that is EXACTLY why UConn made this move years ago. The writing was on the wall that if UConn wanted to remain a "national program" in hoops they HAD to upgrade football. Duke and Indiana have horrible football teams, but it keeps the fans engaged in the fall until hoops season. The seat at the BCS table is the #1 priority to make this move.

If Villanova does make the move, it is to keep basketball (and its entire athletic program) in the national spotlight.

[DFW HOYA]

If Villanova does make the move, it is to keep basketball (and its entire athletic program) in the national spotlight.

Conversely, if Georgetown doesn't make the move, does it take basketball (and its entire athletic program) out of the national spotlight?

[Waco Kid]

There is absolutely no reason to believe Nova football cannot be like some of its peers - BC, Wake come to mind. Similar size schools (actually, I think Wake is a lot smaller). There is a Villanova fan base that could rival some of these teams.

Back to the point about the opponents, its not about the specific teams that Villanova plays. Its about the LEVEL OF PERCEIVED COMPETITION. Playing Rutgers or Syracuse in a Big East battle is A LOT more appealing to the community than any FCS team in a playoff game. While the FCS team might actually be a stronger football team, no one can argue that its not second-level football. Personally, I'll follow the Cats, go to games and opponents if we were D-III, but unfortunately most people won't.

As a poster said, its all about $$$. If you build a team, they will come.

As an App State supporter I can tell you first hand that anyone with dreams of moving up to FBS will be given 10,000 reasons why it can't be done by other posters on this board. If Nova and the Big East want this move to happen it will happen. There will always be hurdles in the path, but it can be done. I do think the idea of playing at a soccer stadium 18 miles away will hurt attendance some, but if the Wildcats are competitive and have top 25 schools coming to town people will show up. Nova has built-in rivalries that Temple never had being only a partial member of the Big East. Maybe one day the Apps and Wildcats can face each other as FBS teams.

[RookieWill]

How does Nova plan to meet that criteria?

I have no idea, but I don't think this is currently a significant concern since it only needs to be paid or actual attendance.


Conversely, if Georgetown doesn't make the move, does it take basketball (and its entire athletic program) out of the national spotlight?

As I have previously mentioned, my hope is that if the league ever does split Villanova and GTOWN remain together. Nothing would be better than that including football as well and who knows maybe if Villanova DOES make the move, Gtown will get slapped across the face and realize the potential value. However, while success on the basketball court can come outside of a BCS conference (gonzaga, xavier, butler), it is prohibitively more difficult for that to happen. I believe that villanova is afraid of what a "cyo" basketball league will mean for its athletic programs in 15 years, even if Villanova and Gtown are the headliners of that conference

[Jackman]

Stupid question.

Isnt there an attendance requirement to move up?

No. There's a 15,000 average attendance requirement to remain FBS after moving, but no attendance requirement to reclassify to FBS.

[aceinthehole]

However, while success on the basketball court can come outside of a BCS conference (gonzaga, xavier, butler), it is prohibitively more difficult for that to happen. I believe that villanova is afraid of what a "cyo" basketball league will mean for its athletic programs in 15 years, even if Villanova and Gtown are the headliners of that conference

DFW -

I agree with Will. Gtwn is in good company right now, but if 'Nova does make the move, it may make it a lot harder for Hoyas to remain a "national program" in the long-term. Certainly their past history, strong name brand/academics, and location give Georgetown huge advantages over say Xavier, Marquette, or Gonzaga, but will the Hoyas be satisfied in a CYO league while most its former Big East brethren are playing big-time football in the fall while you lead the pack in a 2nd rate conference that includes Seton Hall and Providence? The real question Georgetown must ask itself is - will they lose a seat at the 'big boys' table come March if all the national football programs decide to secede or pull their weight and stick together with their own kind?

[superman7515]

No. There's a 15,000 average attendance requirement to remain FBS after moving, but no attendance requirement to reclassify to FBS.

However, they never enforce this rule. Ball State's attendance has never been 15k per game, last year it was just over 10k.

Ball State - 10,888
Bowling Green - 14,044
Eastern Michigan - 5,016
Florida International - 10,204
Idaho - 12,546
UL Monroe - 13,889
Miami (OH) - 11,810
Northern Illinois - 14,889
Rice - 13,552
Western Kentucky - 14,103

By comparison, Division 2 Tuskegee averages 14,553 and Miles averages 13,750; Division 3 St. John's averages 8,208.

[superman7515]

Conversely, if Georgetown doesn't make the move, does it take basketball (and its entire athletic program) out of the national spotlight?

Hoya basketball and football are always welcome in the CAA.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

However, they never enforce this rule. Ball State's attendance has never been 15k per game, last year it was just over 10k.

Ball State - 10,888
Bowling Green - 14,044
Eastern Michigan - 5,016
Florida International - 10,204
Idaho - 12,546
UL Monroe - 13,889
Miami (OH) - 11,810
Northern Illinois - 14,889
Rice - 13,552
Western Kentucky - 14,103

By comparison, Division 2 Tuskegee averages 14,553 and Miles averages 13,750; Division 3 St. John's averages 8,208.

These are all numbers Villanova and Big East folks might want to look at when they are trying to sell a stadium with a maximum capacity of 18,000 as a solid FBS venue. Are any of these big-time football programs? Are any big-time basketball programs?

You're also forgetting UD also easily eclipses these average attendance numbers during a normal season - whether they're successful or not.

[bostonspider]

http://www.pennathletics.com//pics30/640/LU/LUWBYOTPMARSZTS.20041005150157.jpg

I think Villanova will end up playing more games down at Franklin Field. Maybe pay for their own carpet to be rolled out. They could do better than expected with attendance, just as UConn has. I think their traditional rivalries with Syracuse, WV, Pitt, UConn and Rutgers will help.

[superman7515]

These are all numbers Villanova and Big East folks might want to look at when they are trying to sell a stadium with a maximum capacity of 18,000 as a solid FBS venue. Are any of these big-time football programs? Are any big-time basketball programs?

You're also forgetting UD also easily eclipses these average attendance numbers during a normal season - whether they're successful or not.

I didn't forget, I just left out any Division 1 schools. When FBS teams are being outdrawn by Division 2 teams (there were several, I just used two examples) and in Eastern Michigan's case, even several D3 teams, I fail to see how it is worth the cost. And I hardly believe the "national recognition". When was Eastern Michigan on ESPN's big game for the week or primetime on one of the networks? They're not getting recognition out of it, or at least not positive recognition.

[NovaWildcat]

You're not going to hear ANYTHING out of the athletic department until this thing is sign, sealed and delivered. EVERYONE involved with Villanova wants this to happen (whether it is feasible is the issue) - imagine the disappointment if it didn't pan out.

And again, nit picking quotes from people in the athletic department is senseless. Nicastro has no reason to leak any information. Talley HAS to be ambivalent publically - he's got one of the best FCS teams in the country right now and the task at hand for HIM is to win the CAA and FCS title - not to position himself for the Big East.

As for the above post about attendance #'s: none of those schools are BCS schools. Most of them (if not all) are not even competitive with any respect at the FBS level. Are we really comparing Nova to Eastern Michigan, Ball State and Idaho? If Villanova is to move up, its program is instantly head and shoulders above those programs. You're comparing Apples to Oranges.

Villanova basketball will be a power as long as it is with the big boys. If its in the CYO league, it still may be successful, but the chances are a lot slimmer. That is the motivation behind this move. The most important factor is not having a top flight football team, although it would be nice, it is to stay with the college sports heavy-weights. If you look at the success of Villanova's athletic department as a whole, this is easy to understand.

[superman7515]

Villanova's average attendance is 7,111. So comparing them to an established BCS team is apples to oranges as well. Again, it's a Division 1 program who won a national championship while being outdrawn by Division 3 teams. That's a lack of interest.

[bostonspider]

Well what did UConn average in say 1999 when they made the playoffs? It seems to me that schools with big time basketball (National Champs / Final Fours) tend to look at FCS football as so much lesser. If their school can be the best in the country in one sport, why would the be interested in a "second" division football team. Right or not, it is the impression I get from those types of schools.

[NovaWildcat]

Well what did UConn average in say 1999 when they made the playoffs? It seems to me that schools with big time basketball (National Champs / Final Fours) tend to look at FCS football as so much lesser. If their school can be the best in the country in one sport, why would the be interested in a "second" division football team. Right or not, it is the impression I get from those types of schools.

Bingo. Our school / community has very limited interest in supporting a team that doesn't compete at the top level.

I wish it were different, but then again, this is a school with undergrad short of 7k not a big public school...so in order to get local area interest, Villanova needs to create a product that people would be more likely to follow.

[aceinthehole]

Well what did UConn average in say 1999 when they made the playoffs? It seems to me that schools with big time basketball (National Champs / Final Fours) tend to look at FCS football as so much lesser. If their school can be the best in the country in one sport, why would the be interested in a "second" division football team. Right or not, it is the impression I get from those types of schools.

This is the point a lot of the naysayers are missing. You and Nova fans get it. This isn't about football - it's about keeping basketball a national championship contender.

UConn hadn't EVER made the I-AA playoffs before announcing the move to I-A (they made the playoffs in their last year as a I-AA program). The Huskies drew flies to their rural campus for football games. Attendence wasn't impressive - maybe a crowd of 7k vs UMass is a season high most years.

The upgrade is about the BCS membership! Don't compare 'Nova with Directional Michigan or FIU. Does Duke expect to be a football power - of course not. It keeps fielding a football team because it is the cost of doing business to be a national power in hoops.

This isn't even comparable to a rumored JMU upgrade, that at best gets them in the Sun Belt or MAC. Any FCS program (including Delaware, App St, or Montana) would do everything in their power to upgrade if there was a BCS offer on the table. I'm not saying this will happen, but if 'Nova has to explore every possibility to get it done and grab the NCAA's version of the 'golden ticket.'

[UAalum72]

Well what did UConn average in say 1999 when they made the playoffs? It seems to me that schools with big time basketball (National Champs / Final Fours) tend to look at FCS football as so much lesser. If their school can be the best in the country in one sport, why would the be interested in a "second" division football team. Right or not, it is the impression I get from those types of schools.

9,628 - 335 more than the year before
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/c5/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gjX29XJydDRwP_wGBDA0 8Df3Nzd1dXQwMDA_1wkA6zeGd3Rw8Tcx8DA3-jMAMDIz_T4ECD0GBjA09jiLwBDuBooO_nkZ-bqh-pH2WO0x53Y_3InNT0xORK_YLs7DTndEVFAHpu34Y!/dl3/d3/L0lJSklna21BL0lKakFBTXlBQkVSQ0pBISEvNEZHZ3NvMFZ2em E5SUFnIS83XzJNS0VCQjFBME9RUzEwSTBPNzdHRUUxMEczL2NZ bV80NTczMzAwMDg!/?WCM_PORTLET=PC_7_2MKEBB1A0OQS10I0O77GEE10G3_WCM&WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/resources/stats/football/attendance/1999/1999iaaattendance.html

[Catsfan2]

I've heard a rumor that there is a now defunct junior college campus less than a half-mile from Villanova. I don't think it solves the stadium issue, it's too small for a stadium -- about 15 acres, and the locals would never allow another stadium, but if it could be acquired it could be used for practice fields and training facilities.

[superman7515]

I'm not aware of any defunct junior colleges in the area, but Cabrini and Rosemont are right next door. Eastern, Haverford, and Valley Forge are close too (all probably within a mile or two), and you could always import some cheerleaders from Bryn Mawr right down the street.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As for the above post about attendance #'s: none of those schools are BCS schools. Most of them (if not all) are not even competitive with any respect at the FBS level. Are we really comparing Nova to Eastern Michigan, Ball State and Idaho? If Villanova is to move up, its program is instantly head and shoulders above those programs. You're comparing Apples to Oranges.


Villanova's average attendance is 7,111. So comparing them to an established BCS team is apples to oranges as well. Again, it's a Division 1 program who won a national championship while being outdrawn by Division 3 teams. That's a lack of interest.


The upgrade is about the BCS membership! Don't compare 'Nova with Directional Michigan or FIU. Does Duke expect to be a football power - of course not. It keeps fielding a football team because it is the cost of doing business to be a national power in hoops.

But if you don't have a facility to get you out of FIU and Eastern Michigan territory it absolutely does have everything to do with it. Villanova does not have a BCS facility available. They have a state-of-the-art FCS facility in Chester, an old barely-BCS capable stadium that Penn currently has, and their own stadium which is nowhere near ready for FBS.

If the Linc was open and available, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd be saying "I'm sad to see Nova leave, but, hey, the Big East is giving them this golden opportunity and they're taking it, just like UConn did."

But unless they get Franklin field (which is the best solution, but I'm not sure they can get it) you then have to get the Philly Union to average what Duke's maximum capacity is - 33,000 - and average what Duke did last year - 26,000 - to even make this somewhat worth it.

I have serious doubts that having a hybrid CBP/FF/Union stadium solution would be acceptable to anybody, and Villanova owns none of this real estate, unlike Duke, so they'll be paying for it in some fashion.

It really all comes down to the stadium puzzle once again. And again, I'm not saying that it won't happen. But it will take a lot more that the hands that are being shown right now. It's damned complicated.

[superman7515]

I have serious doubts that having a hybrid CBP/FF/Union stadium solution would be acceptable to nobody, and Villanova owns none of this real estate, unlike Duke, so they'll be paying for it in some fashion.


I have serious doubts that the Phillies would agree to let any football team, not just a knock on Nova but anyone, use Citizens Bank Park in the near future. As long as the team is consistently playing meaningful baseball in October and with 100 consecutive sellouts, there is no way they'd risk the field. PPL Park seats 18,500 and can "expand" to 26,000, but that is for concerts by putting metal folding chairs down on the field; completely infeasible for a football game. Delaware County owns the land and the stadium and pays for it and the taxes on it from... gambling proceeds from Harrah's Racetrack & Casino. Would the NCAA allow that? They were falling over themselves head over heels to try to ban Delaware from the playoffs because the state wanted to allow increased gambling that would not include in-state teams. Add to that there are already two soccer teams using the field and that there has to be some sort of contract between the teams and DelCo involving the maintenance of the field and conditions. If they can get Franklin Field away from Penn and make it work, all the more power to Nova, save me a hoagie and I'll be there for the first Big East game. But I don't see it happening at PPL or Citizens Bank.

[henfan]

You're not going to hear ANYTHING out of the athletic department until this thing is sign, sealed and delivered. EVERYONE involved with Villanova wants this to happen (whether it is feasible is the issue) - imagine the disappointment if it didn't pan out.


VU is already blabbing the Big East rumor to recruits like Jamal Abdur-Rahman. Imagine their disappointment if it doesn't pan out.

Clearly the rumor has been out there for several days and is already talked to death by VU fans & others on message boards and has been reported & repeated in a couple of different media sources. VU fans are already aware of the rumors and, from what I've read, have already gotten their hopes up. The question is definitely going to hang over VU FB now and into the immediate future, regardless.

[Sader87]

So, is Villanova going to join the Big East? You know, we could have been in the Big East in 1979 doncha????

[DFW HOYA]

If they can get Franklin Field away from Penn and make it work, all the more power to Nova, save me a hoagie and I'll be there for the first Big East game.

Why would Penn ever agree to that? If Georgia State wanted to play home games at Grant Field, would GTech simply go along for the ride?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Why would Penn ever agree to that? If Georgia State wanted to play home games at Grant Field, would GTech simply go along for the ride?

Penn allowed Temple to play at FF for 2 or 3 games prior to the Linc being built. While FF is a cool place to watch a game it's a disaster from a location standpoint.

[Sader87]

It'll be interesting....Villanova football has a worse following than Holy Cross (even as bad as it is in the PL right now) but if they can become "Philly's team" they may be able to make a go of it. I really don't "know Philly" so I don't know if that's possible. Was Temple football spurned by the Philly area due to its being sort of a "poor cousin" in that city? Poor teams? BC is really not a good analogy in that though they are a Catholic. private school like Villanova, they have always been Boston's one and only major college football team and they have a LOT more football institutional history and following than Villanova.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

As a Temple alum i'm very interested to see how much our attendance increases following last years 9-4 season.

Temple has not always been the dregs of FBS football and a black eye for Philly sports. Before Temple joined the Big East we drew pretty well and offered football fans in SEPA a worthy watch.

For 2010 I believe we should average 17-23k for our MAC games, hopefully 25k for 'Nova and maybe 30k for UCONN assuming we play well to start the season.

[superman7515]

Last year, Temple drew 17379 so if they continue to average 17k for games after one of their best seasons in many years, that would be interesting. You also have to look at the fact Temple has an undergrad student body of over 26,000 while Villanova's is around 6,500.

Temple football wasn't spurned throughout history because of it being a bad team, Temple football has been spurned because in Philly there are the Eagles and then there is everything else. Even the Phillies with their recent success have had trouble overcoming the Eagles and local sports radio (namely Tony Bruno and Howard Eskin) still debates ad naseum whether the Phillies can ever stop it from being an "Eagles town" even with prolonged success. People in the area would rather talk about the Eagles not winning a championship than the Phillies actually pulling it off and getting the parade down Broad St.

[wr70beh]

This is the point a lot of the naysayers are missing. You and Nova fans get it. This isn't about football - it's about keeping basketball a national championship contender.

UConn hadn't EVER made the I-AA playoffs before announcing the move to I-A (they made the playoffs in their last year as a I-AA program). The Huskies drew flies to their rural campus for football games. Attendence wasn't impressive - maybe a crowd of 7k vs UMass is a season high most years.

The upgrade is about the BCS membership! Don't compare 'Nova with Directional Michigan or FIU. Does Duke expect to be a football power - of course not. It keeps fielding a football team because it is the cost of doing business to be a national power in hoops.

This isn't even comparable to a rumored JMU upgrade, that at best gets them in the Sun Belt or MAC. Any FCS program (including Delaware, App St, or Montana) would do everything in their power to upgrade if there was a BCS offer on the table. I'm not saying this will happen, but if 'Nova has to explore every possibility to get it done and grab the NCAA's version of the 'golden ticket.'

And they're the only school (public or private) that can do it right now. Any other FCS program doesn't have that luxury. If they wanted to upgrade, it would be to the Sun Belt, WAC, or MAC. While that might get you a berth in the Toronto Bowl or the Biloxi Bowl, that will NEVER get you a chance to play for a national championship.

[superman7515]

Superman - I was recently told by someone close to the situation at Villanova, that the "soccer stadium" has been actively recruiting Villanova to play the majority of their games there. I would guess the "soccer stadium" is also actively recruiting other tenants, but they apparently would very much like to have Villanova on their field.

As someone who follows Nova sports extremely closely and who has been around the Nova to Big East football discussion since the last decision, I have never heard so much scuttlebut, rumors, etc. that suggest it is being strongly considered as it is now. I personally, put the odds at below 50-50, but if you asked me 3 months ago, I would have said 10-90, now I say closer to 49-51

Well apparently PPL Park has never actively recruited Villanova to play there and the Union don't exactly sound overly interested considering the team president is saying there haven't been any discussions in months...


Q. One of the things that's been discussed this year is your discussions and negotiations with Villanova about hosting their football team at PPL Park should they move up to the Big East. I have heard that you've said to some people associated with the Villanova program that if there's a way to get the football lines down, you'd be happy to have them. How much discussion have you had with Villanova and at what stage are they?

A. We really haven't - other than our first discussions of saying 'we're willing to look at it.' Once we get to the offseason, we're going to look at some stuff with the grass, and see what we can do with football lines. There's still a lot of questions to be answered.

Doesn't sound like it's completely out of the question, but it certainly isn't as imminent as others have tried to make it sound.

Q&A with Union president Tom Veit (http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/thegoalkeeper/QA_with_Union_president_Tom_Veit.html)

[superman7515]

A few more articles on Villanova... looks like we're just waiting for December now.

Big East Basketball Coaches Discourage TCU From Joining Conference (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/497436-big-east-basketball-coaches-discourage-tcu-from-joining-conference)

Why Villanova Will / Won’t Go To the Big East for Football… (http://www.thessz.com/?p=887)

[VUCats02]

Thanks for the articles. A couple more months before we find out what the verdict is. My guess is Nova stays put in the CAA - and frankly, I would be perfectly fine with it. I'm not much of a believer about this "private and public school split" in a couple of years. Nova just isn't a big enough school to get the attendance needed for FBS type football. Yes, we get 20,000+ for basketball games, but like Jay Wright said in one of those articles, football to the south is basketball to the northeast. There's just not much interest in football in this culture for the average sports fan. And there's people who say that if nova was playing rutgers or syracuse, our attendance would be so much better. It would be better, but I'm guessing it still wouldn't be enough. Nova is one of the smallest schools in the CAA let alone the Big East, and the culture just wouldn't allow the attendance needed for FBS type football.

[superman7515]

The rumor on GoHens is that Villanova has decided to accept the Big East invitation. I've pressed for a source, no such luck. Take it with a grain of salt for the time being until something more substantial in either direction is leaked.

[NovaWildcat]

Not to discount your source, but on the Nova paid message board there are a lot of typically-credible people who have "sources" in both directions.

I think it's 50/50 at this point. And Talley has gone on record as saying that nothing will be announced until December.

My xtwocentsx - I think we'd be better served making an announcement after our season is over.

[jmufan999]

Thanks for the articles. A couple more months before we find out what the verdict is. My guess is Nova stays put in the CAA - and frankly, I would be perfectly fine with it. I'm not much of a believer about this "private and public school split" in a couple of years. Nova just isn't a big enough school to get the attendance needed for FBS type football. Yes, we get 20,000+ for basketball games, but like Jay Wright said in one of those articles, football to the south is basketball to the northeast. There's just not much interest in football in this culture for the average sports fan. And there's people who say that if nova was playing rutgers or syracuse, our attendance would be so much better. It would be better, but I'm guessing it still wouldn't be enough. Nova is one of the smallest schools in the CAA let alone the Big East, and the culture just wouldn't allow the attendance needed for FBS type football.

you know your school better than i do, but i'd be surprised if they turned down such a big opportunity. they'll regret it for decades if they make the wrong call... i think there would be less regret by leaving for the BE and having it not go well. who knows, maybe you can come back to the CAA...??? if there was an opening, the conference would definitely take you back. i think it would be very, very unwise not to make the move... i'd be absolutely furious if JMU turned down such a big opportunity. i know the two situations are different, just saying.

[GannonFan]

you know your school better than i do, but i'd be surprised if they turned down such a big opportunity. they'll regret it for decades if they make the wrong call... i think there would be less regret by leaving for the BE and having it not go well. who knows, maybe you can come back to the CAA...??? if there was an opening, the conference would definitely take you back. i think it would be very, very unwise not to make the move... i'd be absolutely furious if JMU turned down such a big opportunity. i know the two situations are different, just saying.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm not sure it even matters what they decide. nova basketball will still be in danger of being left on the outside looking in regardless if they join the Big East for football now. nova's only hope is that somehow their football program becomes not only self-sufficient (i.e. minus the money the Big East is going to feed them just to stay float, which is a pretty tough goal in and of itself) but maybe even profitable. If they can accomplish that Herculean task, then they have a chance of getting picked off like a Syracuse, or Pitt, or WVa will when the Big East falls apart. But with no stadium, no fanbase, no market, and no state-funneled support, that's almost an impossible if.

[superman7515]

How Can Nova Play Football With The Big Guys (http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20101115_How_can__Nova_play_football_with_the_big_ guys_.html?viewAll=y)


Q: So what's the guess: Will Villanova make the move?

A: The guess is yes, that Villanova will not risk losing out on maybe its last chance to be big time in all sports. If Villanova could stop the clock right now - keeping its place in the Big East for basketball, playing one level down in football - with a guarantee that nothing would ever change, the school would not make this move. But that's not an option.

Q: Worst-case scenario, Villanova moves up, and Big East football falls apart after Villanova makes the upgrade. What then?

A: Villanova might make the case that it would be a perfect fit for the ACC. There's no reason to think the musical chairs will stop any time soon.

[DFW HOYA]

"If Villanova could stop the clock right now - keeping its place in the Big East for basketball, playing one level down in football - with a guarantee that nothing would ever change, the school would not make this move. But that's not an option."

I think that's the "Georgetown option"...

[NovaWildcat]

superman7515, absolutely. No way this move is made without the inevitable conference changes. It's all being done to protect basketball - the benefits of this program have been incredible for a relatively small, catholic school.

jmufan999, I think most Villanova people would be surprised if the move WAS made. Even though the benefits seem obviously, many of our administration appears to be against it, including our President. Additionally, Villanova historically has had a very narrow focus, and this decision would not necessarily fall in line with that. While we excel at athletics, it's typically despite funding and support, not with it.

ACC would be an option that our fans would love. Conference would make a lot of sense since we are similar to many of its teams.

That's looking a bit down the line though. I don't necessarily think the conference will split if it adds a few football teams. What teams will be poached (and by conference?). I think the much more likely scenario is the split from basketball schools.

[superman7515]

Well if there was any question that Nova is worried about attendance or that basketball was driving this move...


Villanova presently plays football in the Colonial Athletic Association which is part of Football Championship Subdivision (FCS). If the institution were to move to the Big East Conference for football (Football Bowl Subdivision) and you were required to purchase football season tickets as part of your basketball season ticket package at the Pavilion, would you still purchase basketball season tickets?


5 If you were required to purchase football season tickets as part of your basketball season ticket package would you attend football games?

[jlcharles]

They should have been doing a tie-in between the basketball ticket lottery and football for years, but our athletic department is too stupid or incompetent. I think it's a combination of both. I've heard of them tying men's basketball to the women's games though.

I, for one, hope we never move up. This level of football is perfect for us. We play against similar schools in W&M and Richmond. We have zero in common with schools like Rutgers, Pitt, WVU. The attendance is another issue. Sure, the jerks who can't show up to support the team now will show up at the beginning, but when we go sub-.500 every year, they'll stop going.

And even barring the attendance issues, what is the point of playing if you can't compete for a national championship? Oh boy, we might get to go to Detroit to play in some crappy bowl game against another crappy team if we can somehow finish at .500. I don't understand how anyone can get excited for an exhibition game.

Moving up will be the death knell for the football program once and for all. They tried to kill it off once and failed. This time, they'll succeed.

[NovaWildcat]

They should have been doing a tie-in between the basketball ticket lottery and football for years, but our athletic department is too stupid or incompetent. I think it's a combination of both. I've heard of them tying men's basketball to the women's games though.

I, for one, hope we never move up. This level of football is perfect for us. We play against similar schools in W&M and Richmond. We have zero in common with schools like Rutgers, Pitt, WVU. The attendance is another issue.

If we move up, the plan is to do a tie-in. Nicastro has been public about this.

We do have something in common with Rutgers, Pitt, WVU...we play against them in all other sports. And have for a long time. What do we have in common with Delaware, JMU, UMass, New Hampshire, Maine (and eventually Georgia State and Old Dominion)?

[TypicalTribe]

Would back-to-back national championships have any impact on the decision, i.e. no more hills to climb at the FCS level so why not move up?

[jlcharles]

If we move up, the plan is to do a tie-in. Nicastro has been public about this.

We do have something in common with Rutgers, Pitt, WVU...we play against them in all other sports. And have for a long time. What do we have in common with Delaware, JMU, UMass, New Hampshire, Maine (and eventually Georgia State and Old Dominion)?

Don't trust Nicastro to do anything. He's an idiot from St. Joe's (PA).

You know exactly what I mean about having something in common. We have nothing in common with any of the football schools. Save Syracuse which is a large private school, the rest are large state schools. We have nothing in common with them. We have more in common with the Patriot League than the Big East.


Would back-to-back national championships have any impact on the decision, i.e. no more hills to climb at the FCS level so why not move up?

No, this is purely basketball driven. They'll sacrifice football for the basketball team if they think they need to.

[Go...gate]

Don't trust Nicastro to do anything. He's an idiot from St. Joe's (PA).

You know exactly what I mean about having something in common. We have nothing in common with any of the football schools. Save Syracuse which is a large private school, the rest are large state schools. We have nothing in common with them. We have more in common with the Patriot League than the Big East.

No, this is purely basketball driven. They'll sacrifice football for the basketball team if they think they need to.

If you guys have any interest whatsoever in playing FB in a 57 + scholarship Patriot League, please get some of those Augustinians to say some heavy-duty prayers that the PL votes for them in the next 24-48 hours.

[NovaWildcat]

Don't trust Nicastro to do anything. He's an idiot from St. Joe's (PA).

You know exactly what I mean about having something in common. We have nothing in common with any of the football schools. Save Syracuse which is a large private school, the rest are large state schools. We have nothing in common with them. We have more in common with the Patriot League than the Big East.



No, this is purely basketball driven. They'll sacrifice football for the basketball team if they think they need to.

Nicastro has been a heavy-proponent of the move up. No need for unwarranted name-calling.

FCS success has little if anything to do with a move-up.

And yes, we do have something in common with those large public schools. We play them in every other sport besides football...and actually have had great success in doing so. And have been doing it for a while. Besides W&M and Richmond, we have nothing in common with the CAA, either.

Are you suggesting we move to the Patriot League? Because otherwise, staying in the CAA makes no sense. I'm sure Jay and co. would love to trade our matchups with Syracuse, Louisville and Georgetown for Bucknell, Holy Cross and Lehigh.

I don't know if you're bitter that basketball runs the show at Villanova, but that's the way it works -- and has been working pretty well for the University.

[NovaWildcat]

If you guys have any interest whatsoever in playing FB in a 57 + scholarship Patriot League, please get some of those Augustinians to say some heavy-duty prayers that the PL votes for them in the next 24-48 hours.

In all seriousness, Villanova football has a better chance of being disbanded than joining the Patriot League. If you think University support is bad NOW for football, you'd be in for a treat when it's announced that we're playing at an even less-compitive level. I'm not trying to criticize the PL -- it's a reputable conference and obviously have great respect for the schools in it, however athletically they are much inferior to Villanova.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In all seriousness, Villanova football has a better chance of being disbanded than joining the Patriot League. If you think University support is bad NOW for football, you'd be in for a treat when it's announced that we're playing at an even less-compitive level. I'm not trying to criticize the PL -- it's a reputable conference and obviously have great respect for the schools in it, however athletically they are much inferior to Villanova.

If this is how you treat the conferences you respect, I'd hate to see how you treat the conferences you don't respect. I mean, you'd feel they'd disband rather than joining? Really?

And while I "respect Villanova football", how on earth could their fan support be much worse? They'd bring 25 games to their Lehigh games instead of the customary 50? Let's not pretend that their fan support is now among the Top Ten fanbases in FCS.

For real, I like Villanova, and I'm mystified as to why they don't get more fans, period. Their coach is a legend and does things the right way, they have a real chance to do something that Delaware has never done by winning back-to-back championships, and to top it off they have a reputation of finding NFL talent. But don't say that their fan support will get worse. It can't get worse than it already is.

[NovaWildcat]

If this is how you treat the conferences you respect, I'd hate to see how you treat the conferences you don't respect. I mean, you'd feel they'd disband rather than joining? Really?

And while I "respect Villanova football", how on earth could their fan support be much worse? They'd bring 25 games to their Lehigh games instead of the customary 50? Let's not pretend that their fan support is now among the Top Ten fanbases in FCS.

For real, I like Villanova, and I'm mystified as to why they don't get more fans, period. Their coach is a legend and does things the right way, they have a real chance to do something that Delaware has never done by winning back-to-back championships, and to top it off they have a reputation of finding NFL talent. But don't say that their fan support will get worse. It can't get worse than it already is.

Fan support can get worse. Instead of 10k for good games and 6k for others you can get half of that. Would that not be worse? At the very least people know we're competing at the top of the FCS. Not that it matters THAT much, but people will be even less inclined to watch a team that competes at a lower level.

Respect has nothing to do with the facts. At the very least we can fall back on the fact that we're highly competitive in a good football conference. Yes, we respect the PL. Just don't think a move to that conference would ever happen. At that point, people would argue (which they do NOW) - "what's the point of VU football?!? Put the money into basketball if it's not going to positively contribute to anything." I don't agree with this stance but it is very common at Villanova.

[jlcharles]

There are plenty of things that Nicastro could have done to ensure the success and support of the football program. He’s done nothing. When you honor the ’97 team and don’t tell anyone that NFL players are going to be there, you’re incompetent. When you have an obvious way to tie student ticketing to the basketball games to attendance at football games and you don’t, you’re incompetent. When you send out emails advising the alumni of how to purchase NIT tickets before NCAA tickets, you’re a flat out dope. I have plenty of reasons to call Nicastro an idiot.

As for my comparison to the Patriot League, I wasn’t advocating a move. I was merely pointing out that scholastically, we have way more in common with them than the Big East. Even though we play the Big East teams in all other sports, we don’t have a damn thing in common with them.

FWIW, I'd like to go back up to Lehigh for a game. Great atmosphere, but it's just too much going to games every single week. I already make it to Penn, Temple, and usually UD.

[jlcharles]

And with the way our alumni act, I'd find it kind of funny if the basketball program got booted from the Big East. It would serve them and their elitist attitudes right. Maybe we could go back to having more local students attend...

[NovaWildcat]

And with the way our alumni act, I'd find it kind of funny if the basketball program got booted from the Big East. It would serve them and their elitist attitudes right. Maybe we could go back to having more local students attend...

There is no way you a supporter of Villanova University with a comment like that.

...of Coach Talley and the football team, maybe, but not VU. Actually, not even, because if you had any realistic perception of Villanova you'd realize that if basketball got the boot from the BE, then the impact on football would be astronomical, included much more limited funding and potentially the death penalty...which in all honesty, wouldn't be all that difficult to justify to people.

As a recent graduate, I'd say it's attitudes like yours that hurt the perception of the football team on campus. They're jealous of the attention basketball players get and show it. They refuse to support the basketball team in anyway...yet don't realize the only reason they're given the opportunity to compete at a high level is because the basketball program keeps the athletic department afloat. I'm not saying this is true for ALL football players -- I know many who are great supporters are friends of bball. However, this sentiment does exist and it only results in a negative perception of them.