Patriot League Expansion Targets

[DFW HOYA]

Are there any?

Maybe there are schools willing to spend like CAA teams do and conform to rules that limits a recruiting pool to 10-15% of prospects, but I don't see it. That's why the upcoming scholarship vote is not necessarily going to expand the league.

[Bogus Megapardus]

No poster on this board, to my knowledge, has ever suggested that his own school would join the Patriot League - even if the alternative was abandoning football altogether. What's more, representatives of at least three Patriot League members here regularly decry their schools' PL membership and continue to hold out hope for any palatable alternative. The Patriot League easily is the most reviled conference in FCS football.

So the answer is no - there are PL expansion candidates.

[Franks Tanks]

Must we go here again.

You sound like you have been hanging out on the Holy Cross board a little too often.

[Go...gate]

I don't know if we are the most reviled conference, but we are certainly underestimated.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't know if we are the most reviled conference, but we are certainly underestimated.

I don't think we're estimated to begin with.

[DFW HOYA]

My point is that the PL should be open to schools like URI where applicable. The old guard seems unwilling to consider state-sponsored schools to the mix.

[Bogus Megapardus]

My point is that the PL should be open to schools like URI where applicable. The old guard seems unwilling to consider state-sponsored schools to the mix.

Such as Army and Navy?

[colorless raider]

Really, this is boring. The PL will adopt scholarships by a narrow margin and G'town and Holy Cross will have to consider what they are going to do. Until then this thread is a waste of time.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Really, this is boring. The PL will adopt scholarships by a narrow margin and G'town and Holy Cross will have to consider what they are going to do. Until then this thread is a waste of time.

Expansion candidates would seem to depend on the scholarship question. But are there any expansion candidates regardless of the outcome of the scholarship question? In other words, any school that would want to become a full PL member (including the AI) and agree to go with the flow no matter how the scholarship vote goes?

[CrusaderBob]

Such as Army and Navy?

Army and Navy are NOT state sponsored. They are nation sponsored! Big difference! xlolx

Scholarships or not, the pickins for expansion are slim. I have for some time now felt that the PL has to look at schools looking to upgrade their academic reputation for expansion not just schools already on par with the existing membership.

[Go...gate]

Really, this is boring. The PL will adopt scholarships by a narrow margin and G'town and Holy Cross will have to consider what they are going to do. Until then this thread is a waste of time.

From your lips to the prexys' ears, Colorless. I hope you are right.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Army and Navy are NOT state sponsored. They are nation sponsored! Big difference! xlolx

Scholarships or not, the pickins for expansion are slim. I have for some time now felt that the PL has to look at schools looking to upgrade their academic reputation for expansion not just schools already on par with the existing membership.

Such as the case of American U. - which advanced its academic and institutional stature substantially by becoming a PL member (though I still can't figure out what sports AU actually plays). I have a list of schools in mind that would fall into this category. Here's where the AI comes in and has its most pronounced effect - the school has to be willing to meet the AI to join, just like American U. did.

FCS schools that could meet the AI if they wanted to that would fit into a scholarship PL:

Duquesne, UNH, Richmond, W&M, Wofford, Monmouth, Elon, Furman, URI, Bryant, Cal Poly.

Schools that could meet the AI if they wanted to that would fit into a non-scholarship PL if they remained non-scholarship or if they dropped current scholarships:

Duquesne, Marist, Drake, Bryant, Davidson, San Diego.

Schools among the above that would consider PL membership in a million years even if the alternative was having no football whatsoever:

None.

[Libertine]

Just out of curiosity, is there a D2 equivalent of the Patriot League? Is the NE-10 similar in nature?

[Tim James]

The NE-10 is one of the worst DII conferences and they are finally adding some scholarships in order to be more competitive.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just out of curiosity, is there a D2 equivalent of the Patriot League? Is the NE-10 similar in nature?

Equivalent in what fashion?

[Fordham]

Good question overall IMO, even if we cover this ground often.

*Dayton?
*Duquesne?
*Bryant?
*Marist?

That's my shortlist unless we start hoping that Hofstra or N'eastern bring their programs back.

Here's one more ? - how much more difficult did expansion become when the PL went to a league-wide AI?

[ngineer]

They're not state "sponsored"...The ARE the State. (;-)

[Franks Tanks]

The Ivy League is the only other conference that operates like the PL. The NE-10 gives very little aid in any manner and has no AI.

[Libertine]

The Ivy League is the only other conference that operates like the PL. The NE-10 gives very little aid in any manner and has no AI.
Thanks, Tanks. I can see the difficulty then with looking for a suitable expansion target. The PL seems pretty much an entity unto itself in that regard.

[Seawolf97]

I would expect the PL to remain as is even if scholarship football is approved. I dont see Fordham going anywhere soon even if URI leaves the CAA. The CAA will be content with its present arrangement until Ga. St, ODU and maybe JMU elect to move to FBS. I truly hope scholarships are in the wind for the PL giving them better opprotunities come play off time and facing FBS teams once a season. I dont see anyone leaving the PL if scholarships are again put on the back burner. Honestly where would you go if not the CAA or Big South? Maybe the NEC, Pioneer? URI may fallback to the
NEC but for sure will stay in the A-10 in the their other sports so to the PL they would just be another Fordham.

[LUHawker]

My personal favorit expansion target, excluding Richmond, which already rebuffed the PL, is RPI.

Geography - check
Academics - check
Private - check
Resources - check
Enrollment size - check
Prestige - check
Ability to meet AI - check
Institutional fit - check
Football - check
All sports - maybe
Rivaly & tradition - check (although new ones would need to be forged)
Division - ouch! D3 creates a huge hurdle
Ability to drag a current rival (ie Union) - maybe
Facilities - check


RPI would not be an immediate solution given the waiting period to move divisions, but it could
provide a path to expansion.

I will preempt my good friend LFN by saying that an RPI, even with a 3-4 year transitional phase is vastly superior than try to get a Marist or a Duquense. Whether it can be mustered is a great question, but it is without a doubt a potential great fit.

As a completely million to one long shot, Delaware would also be a really nice fit within the PL if the PL had schollies and they could adhere to the AI. Will never happen of course.

Johns Hopkins is a great potential candidate, but without football I don't see it.

[ngineer]

Current FCS schools: Under current PL conditions: VMI, Duquesne, Marist
With Scholarships: Villanova, Richmond, Wm & Mary
Long range D-III add-on: Johns Hopkins, RPI

[Dane96]

Such as the case of American U. - which advanced its academic and institutional stature substantially by becoming a PL member (though I still can't figure out what sports AU actually plays). I have a list of schools in mind that would fall into this category. Here's where the AI comes in and has its most pronounced effect - the school has to be willing to meet the AI to join, just like American U. did.

FCS schools that could meet the AI if they wanted to that would fit into a scholarship PL:

Duquesne, UNH, Richmond, W&M, Wofford, Monmouth, Elon, Furman, URI, Bryant, Cal Poly.

Schools that could meet the AI if they wanted to that would fit into a non-scholarship PL if they remained non-scholarship or if they dropped current scholarships:

Duquesne, Marist, Drake, Bryant, Davidson, San Diego.

Schools among the above that would consider PL membership in a million years even if the alternative was having no football whatsoever:

None.

Just curious: why do you mention URI, UNH, Bryant and Monmouth.

With all due respect to those schools, UNH and URI are state schools that bring up the old argument regarding Towson...and later on, Albany and Stony Brook (rejection by the PL).

As for academics...and again, all due respect to the avid posters here...URI and Monmouth aren't exactly knocking down the "PL" type of education doors. URI, in particular, is somewhat a bunk school for athletes. And before I get jumped on...I have a long professional relationship withe URI program (both athletic and non).

Bryant, while promising, isnt exactly considered elite level yet. They arent even at the Marist level, a level that most PL observers say doesnt cut the mustard.

As for Monmouth, a move to the PL would be positive. This weekend I spent time with someone very connected with the program (Read: works at a high level in the department). There are so many issues (non-positive) with the hoop team that they are considering cleaning slate.

The rest of your premise...I concur with.

[Sader87]

Can't stop throwing up....only Richmond, Villanova and William&Mary (an original Colonial League member) fit the PL football (w/scholarships) bill.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Johns Hopkins is a great potential candidate, but without football I don't see it.

Hopkins has an excellent D3 football team (http://www.hopkinssports.com/sports/m-footbl/jhop-m-footbl-body.html). If you're talking D3, then Hopkins and RPI always have been the obvious choices - academics, national prestige and huge endowments are in place. These two could afford it in a blink of the eye and would get unanimous PL presidential approval with a five minute phone call.



Just curious: why do you mention URI, UNH, Bryant and Monmouth.



I was challenged to think expansively and uncloistered by my elitist PL prejudices, so I chose these schools because these schools, if they wanted to, could meet the AI and could operate in a way not inconsistent with PL philosophy. American University is an example of a school that pulled itself up by the bootstraps to join the PL. AU's reputational stock was sinking fast in the 15 years or so prior to joining the PL. PL membership helped to completely reinvent AU academically.

My perfect-world choices remain W&M and Richmond, or, even better, RPI (http://www.rpi.edu/news/image/pr/2009-ecav.jpg) and Hopkins (http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/jhop/graphics/homewood-field1.jpg) if they moved up. I'd put UNH in the former group if pressed to do so. But again, none of these schools is coming to the PL.

But if RPI came to the PL, UAlbany would have a nice new cross-town FCS opponent. I'm pretty sure that RPI would not want to forsake its long-standing rivalry with Union College, though.

DARK HORSE: You never know if one of those NESCAC (http://www.nescac.com/sports/fball/index) schools might all of a sudden want to break out of the pack and distinguish itself at the FCS level. Any NESCAC school could fit into the PL if they chose to move up. None is a better fit than RPI or Hopkins, though - both already have a DI "exemption" scholarship sport.

[Ken_Z]

Howard University

the more Bison, the merrier. err, wait a minute, that does not include MPLS Bison.

[wr70beh]

The NESCAC has a good thing going. All schools are a short bus-trip away, which they would give up if any of them moved to the PL. Amherst vs. Williams is one of the best rivalries in all of D3, and gets some national recognition. I think they're more than happy being the little guys. I'm surprised how much NESCAC schools spend on athletics. Five of the schools are in the top 11 in athletic spending per student in D3.

The only way Richmond would reconsider the PL is if the following happened:

1) if the PL allowed scholarships
2) if there is a mass exodus of teams from the CAA (mainly Va. schools) that move to FBS
3) if W&M moves to the PL and keeps that rivalry intact.

They're not going to get UR as an all-sports member, unless the A-10 gets blown up.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Howard University



Yes - I agree with Howard U.


I think they're more than happy being the little guys.

Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan certainly are. Bates, Bowdoin and Trinity? I'm not so sure. Especially Trinity, which at one time played big school football and has a tradition. If you go to a NESCAC message board, they whine about how the PL schools get to play Harvard, Yale and Princeton and they don't. It would not completely shock me if Trinity, the only urban campus among them, steps up and does something about it.

[RichH2]

I know it is the doldrums but please,please not this again. Heck, I would rather discuss the Pioneer complex with the PL or have bamboo shoots shoved under my fingernails than rehash this topic again and again and again, Yuck!!

[ur2k]

The NESCAC has a good thing going. All schools are a short bus-trip away, which they would give up if any of them moved to the PL. Amherst vs. Williams is one of the best rivalries in all of D3, and gets some national recognition. I think they're more than happy being the little guys. I'm surprised how much NESCAC schools spend on athletics. Five of the schools are in the top 11 in athletic spending per student in D3.

The only way Richmond would reconsider the PL is if the following happened:

1) if the PL allowed scholarships
2) if there is a mass exodus of teams from the CAA (mainly Va. schools) that move to FBS
3) if W&M moves to the PL and keeps that rivalry intact.

They're not going to get UR as an all-sports member, unless the A-10 gets blown up.

We had a revolt the when our former president tried to make this happen in the recent past. A lot of dominoes would have to fall for UR to consider the PL.

[Bogus Megapardus]

bamboo shoots

"Bamboo Shoots" - what a great team nickname! What would the logo look like, I wonder? Either that, or "Crazed Sex Poodles," whose logo might be a little easier to design.

(Just thought I'd break the monotony a little for you, RichH2).


the Pioneer complex with the PL

Actually, this thread has its origins in the "I hate the PL with the fire of a thousand burning suns" meme running throughout AGS in general, so you're welcome to discuss PFL attitudes as well.

[GannonFan]

"Bamboo Shoots" - what a great team nickname! What would the logo look like, I wonder? Either that, or "Crazed Sex Poodles," whose logo might be a little easier to design.

(Just thought I'd break the monotony a little for you, RichH2).



Actually, this thread has its origins in the "I hate the PL with the fire of a thousand burning suns" meme running throughout AGS in general, so you're welcome to discuss PFL attitudes as well.

Huh? You really think people care that much about the Patriot League, one way or the other, to have that kind of feeling?

[Franks Tanks]

You clearly are not paying attention. Every Patriot League thread attracts several interlopers that harp on a few tired points.

-NEC guys always seem to show up and try to argue that NEC football is better than PL football.

-Detroit Flyer shows up and makes some comment about how Dayton is better than the PL in whatever is being discussed.

-Several posters comment on the Academic Index and or Financial aid policies.

Nearly every PL thread is hijacked!

[Go...gate]

Such as the case of American U. - which advanced its academic and institutional stature substantially by becoming a PL member (though I still can't figure out what sports AU actually plays). I have a list of schools in mind that would fall into this category. Here's where the AI comes in and has its most pronounced effect - the school has to be willing to meet the AI to join, just like American U. did.

FCS schools that could meet the AI if they wanted to that would fit into a scholarship PL:

Duquesne, UNH, Richmond, W&M, Wofford, Monmouth, Elon, Furman, URI, Bryant, Cal Poly.

Schools that could meet the AI if they wanted to that would fit into a non-scholarship PL if they remained non-scholarship or if they dropped current scholarships:

Duquesne, Marist, Drake, Bryant, Davidson, San Diego.

Schools among the above that would consider PL membership in a million years even if the alternative was having no football whatsoever:

None.

AU was also courted for several years by Bucknell's former President "Bro" Adams and was willing to make the adjustments as part of a larger Strategic Plan for their university. You have to wonder about AU, though; don't they have former LC Prexy Art Rothlopf on their BOT now? If so, they may be joining the Centennial or Middle Atlantic Conferences before long (just kidding).

[RichH2]

Thanks Bogie, appreciate the laugh, surprised Mpls Bison has not chimed in with his "unique perspective "
'

[Bogus Megapardus]

don't they have former LC Prexy Art Rothlopf on their BOT now?

Indeed they do. And I notice that AU still doesn't have a football team either. Coincidence?

The PL association helped rescue AU from the Berendzen and Ladner presidential scandals. I think it's payback time - I say they should be told to shoehorn a few thousand more seats into Reeves Field, hire a staff and recruit a football team.

[DetroitFlyer]

You clearly are not paying attention. Every Patriot League thread attracts several interlopers that harp on a few tired points.

-NEC guys always seem to show up and try to argue that NEC football is better than PL football.

-Detroit Flyer shows up and makes some comment about how Dayton is better than the PL in whatever is being discussed.

-Several posters comment on the Academic Index and or Financial aid policies.

Nearly every PL thread is hijacked!

Dayton is in fact better than the PL in whatever is being discussed!xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

The PL association helped rescue AU from the horrific Berendzen and Ladner presidential scandals. I think it's payback time - I say they should be told to shoehorn a few thousand more seats into Reeves Field, hire a staff and recruit a football team.

The 2011 AU campus plan has proposed adding seats to Reeves Field.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/tag.cgi?label=American%20University

In a perfect world, football at AU would provide some symmetry to the PL:

Lehigh-Lafayette
Bucknell-Colgate
Holy Cross-Fordham
Georgetown-American

[Bogus Megapardus]

The 2011 AU campus plan has proposed adding seats to Reeves Field.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/tag.cgi?label=American%20University

In a perfect world, football at AU would provide some symmetry to the PL:

Lehigh-Lafayette
Bucknell-Colgate
Holy Cross-Fordham
Georgetown-American

Hmmm . . . adding seats to Reeves. Could it be just for soccer? Adding "offices and locker rooms" to the back of Bender Arena, right next to Reeves Field. How convenient. Again - just for soccer? I'm going on record as saying, without a doubt in my mind, that I have absolutely no idea whatsoever if AU is thinking about football, but it sure would be cool. And just think if you're Georgetown - you might finally get that PL win (even though AU is essentially the girl's school of the PL).

[Bogus Megapardus]

Forbes Magazine (http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/2010/06/musical-chairs-sorting-out-the-college-conference-realignment/), June 10, 2010:


The league in which a university plays is, for most, the primary way of categorizing that institution. The terms "Ivy League", "Big Ten", "ACC" and "SEC" – do more than describe who a school competes against for NCAA tournament bids. They connote most everything about who goes there, who aspires to go there, who its peers are, what quality of faculty work there and how effectively they compete for scarce resources in terms of government and private foundational grants and even offer some insight into the generosity of their alumni. In short, conference association goes a long way toward defining a university.
I'm glad someone else said it. Cue MlpsBison in 5 . . . 4 . . . 3 . . .

[DFW HOYA]

Forbes Magazine: "The league in which a university plays is, for most, the primary way of categorizing that institution. The terms "Ivy League", "Big Ten", "ACC" and "SEC" – do more than describe who a school competes against for NCAA tournament bids. They connote most everything about who goes there, who aspires to go there, who its peers are, what quality of faculty work there and how effectively they compete for scarce resources in terms of government and private foundational grants and even offer some insight into the generosity of their alumni. In short, conference association goes a long way toward defining a university. " (http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/2010/06/musical-chairs-sorting-out-the-college-conference-realignment/),

Unless you're in the Big East...

[Fox 94]

us told to dum for patreat leeg

[DetroitFlyer]

Uh no.... I have never heard anyone say that they are going to the Big Ten's Iowa.... My cousin's son is
heading off to Holy Cross in the fall. In all of my conversations with her, not once has she mentioned
that her son is going to the Patriot League's Holy Cross. The only conference where it matters is the Ivy
League. Now some kids do choose FBS schools because they want the "Big Time" college atmosphere.
I would say that for the most part, the FCS football conference your school is in has virtually no bearing
on the students you attract. In fact, I would take it one step further and say that most kids and probably
parents do not even know that most FCS schools have football programs.... Granted, some do, but
I would argue that most do not....

[Franks Tanks]

I think that if Marist was willing to come over as an all sports member a deal could have been made. What do you think?

[Bogus Megapardus]

What do you think?

What do I think? I think it's fun to troll for controversy in the off-season. xwhistlex


My cousin's son is heading off to Holy Cross in the fall. In all of my conversations with her, not once has she mentioned
that her son is going to the Patriot League's Holy Cross.

That's because the hired help in the HC cafeteria don't get out to very many games, Flyer, and probably don't pay much attention anyhow. And I forgot to ask, Flyer - wanna cut my lawn for a few extra bucks this weekend? I'll be at the lake house in the Adirondacks, you know . . . .

[Fox 94]

Marist does not have the resources to match the PL football budgets to be competitive at football. We would struggle much like Georgetown has.

Marist alumni do not want to see the basketball teams in the PL.

The school is happy in the PFL.

We would not want to be perceived as being the weak member academically.

Some dialogue took place in the recent past and Marist got the impression they were not welcome. Why bark up that tree again?

[Redwyn]

Uh no.... I have never heard anyone say that they are going to the Big Ten's Iowa.... My cousin's son is
heading off to Holy Cross in the fall. In all of my conversations with her, not once has she mentioned
that her son is going to the Patriot League's Holy Cross. The only conference where it matters is the Ivy
League. Now some kids do choose FBS schools because they want the "Big Time" college atmosphere.
I would say that for the most part, the FCS football conference your school is in has virtually no bearing
on the students you attract. In fact, I would take it one step further and say that most kids and probably
parents do not even know that most FCS schools have football programs.... Granted, some do, but
I would argue that most do not....

Big Ten "CIC" - One of the most powerful research consortiums in the United States....I'd say that's a good reason to want to teach or study at a Big Ten school vs. others. It just welcomed Nebraska btw. Its only non-conference member is U Chicago. http://www.cic.net/Home.aspx

Many conferences do research together, as well as host conferences dedicated only to its members. For example, the Patriot League Teacher's Conference http://www.bucknell.edu/x49727.xml

Colonial Athletic Association Research Conference http://www.jmu.edu/news/madisonscholar/Researchconference.shtml

And, most importantly, the AAU - one of the biggest pulls for research. Read a lot of re-alignment papers and this is cited as a major attraction of some of the prospective movers. It's the top 63 research universities in the US (SBU is one of them!). http://www.aau.edu/about/article.aspx?id=5476 Notice the lack of some major names, such as Alabama, Auburn, Oklahoma, Washington State, and Utah. This is one of the reasons why Utah was on the backburner for so long, and schools like Texas, Texas A&M, Nebraska, and Colorado were better commodities.

Conferences care about the quality of its membership. They care about who they're associated with, who their rivals are, and what name it attaches to itself. While some conferences - such as the A10 and Big East - aren't as coherent, groups like the Ivy League, Pac 10, Big 10, and SEC are very tight knit cooperative organizations. Students may care about the life associated with athletics, but the quality of their degree (a major pull to most realistic people) directly hinges on the school's academic credibility. Athletic conference is a big part of that.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think that if Marist was willing to come over as an all sports member a deal could have been made. What do you think?


Marist does not have the resources to match the PL football budgets to be competitive at football. We would struggle much like Georgetown has.

Marist alumni do not want to see the basketball teams in the PL.

The school is happy in the PFL.

We would not want to be perceived as being the weak member academically.

Some dialogue took place in the recent past and Marist got the impression they were not welcome. Why bark up that tree again?

Marist probably could have been a full PL member at one point, but my perception is that Marist thought their basketball programs (especially women's) would be sacrificed in the PL, and, like DetroitFlyer, Marist did not see any particular benefit to being associated with the PL as a whole. Its alumni might have viewed PL association as a negative (just as a vocal minority at Holy Cross do now). Marist would have wanted to join for football only, simply for lack or any place else to go given the collapse of MAAC football. My impression is that, unlike American U., Marist was not willing to go out of its way to do anything special (or costly) to meet PL academic or institutional standards. If the PL presidents vote to remain non-scholarship, I'm sure that there will be more discussions with Marist. Marist's success and comfort level in the PFL would seem to proscribe any movement for now, though.

[Sader87]

The Patriot League was created to provide the Ivies with winnable non-league football games. (See: HC 77 Columbia 28 10/29/83) No more, no less.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Patriot League was created to provide the Ivies with winnable non-league football games. (See: HC 77 Columbia 28 10/29/83) No more, no less.

Counting the days until the Ivies don't have Holy Cross to kick around any longer, aren't you, Sader87? :p

[Sader87]

Counting the days until the Ivies don't have Holy Cross to kick around any longer, aren't you, Sader87? :p

Scoff all you like, but that Columbia game in 1983 was very much the impetus to make the PL a "non-scholarship, Ivy-like (lite?)" league. I blame Gil Fenerty (18 carries, 337 yds, 6TD's) for our admission/creation of the Colonial League.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Scoff all you like, but that Columbia game in 1983 was very much the impetus to make the PL a "non-scholarship, Ivy-like (lite?)" league. I blame Gil Fenerty (18 carries, 337 yds, 6TD's) for our admission/creation of the Colonial League.

Umm . . . it's Columbia. We've regularly scored in the 50s and 60s on Columbia over the years. Lafayette has been playing Columbia home-and-home since 1889. In all those years, the Lions have never won in Easton. Not once. You puts on the blindfold and you swings at the powder-blue piñata. Very bad example, Sader87, though I'm sure you've convinced you bunk-buddy Gil that the the whole Patriot League thing was his doing.

[Sader87]

The '83 Columbia game was sort of the "straw that broke the camel's back" type-game....what drove the creation of the PL was that HC was beating the Ivies regularly, UNH was beating Dartmouth, UConn was beating Yale, URI was beating Brown etc. etc by the early/mid 80's and the Ivies were looking for teams that they could beat to replace (or if not replace, at least augment) a lot of these schools on their schedules.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The '83 Columbia game was sort of the "straw that broke the camel's back" type-game....what drove the creation of the PL was that HC was beating the Ivies regularly, UNH was beating Dartmouth, UConn was beating Yale, URI was beating Brown etc. etc by the early/mid 80's and the Ivies were looking for teams that they could beat to replace a lot of these schools on their schedules.

Oh for chrissake. We all know that the PL was created by an agreement between the Ivies and the PL schools. It's written into the freakin' charter. But we've been playing an Ivy schedule every year since the beginning of time. So has Lehigh and Colgate, and so have you. I don't know what the W-L is, but I suspect the Ivies have the better of us overall. The PL was created to promote the continuation of non-scholarship competition at the highest academic level - which is written into their charter. Holy Cross signed on. No one forced their hand. HC can walk away any time it wants. 120 years of football history among these institutions was not turned on its head because of one game. Nothing in the Ivy League or the Patriot League happens so precipitously. Its a world where the floes of time crawl like molasses on an Antarctic plateau.

PS - IF full-scholarship, Columbia-killing Holy Cross was so almighty powerful in 1983, why did it need to schedule six non-scholarship teams that season? Why did Holy Cross get pummeled by BC 47-7 that year? Perhaps HC's decision had to do with a few other things . . . .

[colorless raider]

Oh for chrissake. We all know that the PL was created by an agreement between the Ivies and the PL schools. It's written into the freakin' charter. But we've been playing an Ivy schedule every year since the beginning of time. So has Lehigh and Colgate, and so have you. I don't know what the W-L is, but I suspect the Ivies have the better of us overall. The PL was created to promote the continuation of non-scholarship competition at the highest academic level - which is written into their charter. Holy Cross signed on. No one forced their hand. HC can walk away any time it wants. 120 years of football history among these institutions was not turned on its head because of one game. Nothing in the Ivy League or the Patriot League happens so precipitously. Its a world where the floes of time crawl like molasses on an Antarctic plateau.

Let em leave, they won their one and only title on an even playing field. They can go play Assumption.

[DFW HOYA]

Oh for chrissake. We all know that the PL was created by an agreement between the Ivies and the PL schools. It's written into the freakin' charter. But we've been playing an Ivy schedule every year since the beginning of time. So has Lehigh and Colgate, and so have you.

Holy Cross had annual series with Dartmouth and Brown and regular (but not annual) games with Harvard from 1940-1980, but it clearly was not an Ivy-heavy schedule. Over that same time, according to the College Football Data Warehouse, it played the remaining Ivy schools a total of 8 games in 40 seasons.

By contrast, Fordham and Georgetown had almost no contact with the Ivies from the early 1900's until joining the PL, which speaks to the frustration previously expressed on the subject.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Then let's blow it all the F up and start all over again, why don't we?

I need a beer.

[Sader87]

Then let's blow it all the F up and start all over again, why don't we?

I need a beer.

Fine with me on all 3 counts....: )

[Pard4Life]

Patriot League Football = sick man of FCS football... I have a feeling that the NEC is going to surpass us very, very soon. It's ironic that this was the best year of Patriot League football, ever. Conference expansion and upgrading football to FCS from lower levels is a non-existent conversation. Many institutions are focused on paying their bills, employing faculty, and keeping their students on financial aid. Do not be misled by the FBS earthquake... real money was involved.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Darn good thing I went out for that beer this evening. No, the NEC will not surpass us; neither will the Big South, PFL, Ivy or anyone else. Different and distinguished? Yes. Surpass? No. The core four will remain as they always have, regardless of the supporting cast of characters around us. Of that I am confident. We can blow it up and start all over but the outcome will remain the same. As to the upgrade question - it could become a moral (if not legal) obligation for the two institutions most frequently noted here.

[DFW HOYA]

It's ironic that this was the best year of Patriot League football, ever.

What happened to 2003?

[ngineer]

Howard University

the more Bison, the merrier. err, wait a minute, that does not include MPLS Bison.

Looking to "cash in your 'chips'?"...(;-)

[ngineer]

Let em leave, they won their one and only title on an even playing field. They can go play Assumption.

You now what happens when people make assumptions, don't you??

[ngineer]

The PL was created to be different. We are what the creators intended. They naively thought others would want to follow the model, but we is what we is. Few schools meet the criteria established so I don't expect anything to happen in the near future.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

What happened to 2003?

I would hardly call last year the best year ever. 2003 the PL produced the national finalists and the Walter Payton award winner. The Colgate and Lehigh teams from the late 90's and early 2000's would have dominated the league the last few years.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm sick of this. Everyone can just go sell their collective souls for the right to play at Pizza Palace or whatever you call it in a game that no one watches or cares about. I'd rather just play football like we always have against the schools I know and care about. This is starting to get insane.

[Fox 94]

Marist probably could have been a full PL member at one point, but my perception is that Marist thought their basketball programs (especially women's) would be sacrificed in the PL, and, like DetroitFlyer, Marist did not see any particular benefit to being associated with the PL as a whole. Its alumni might have viewed PL association as a negative (just as a vocal minority at Holy Cross do now). Marist would have wanted to join for football only, simply for lack or any place else to go given the collapse of MAAC football. My impression is that, unlike American U., Marist was not willing to go out of its way to do anything special (or costly) to meet PL academic or institutional standards. If the PL presidents vote to remain non-scholarship, I'm sure that there will be more discussions with Marist. Marist's success and comfort level in the PFL would seem to proscribe any movement for now, though.

Marist most certainly saw the benefit of being associated with such a fine academic league. I think an all member invite would seriously be considered by the school. Academics is a top priority with the adminstration.

I know for a fact that a PL invite was not extended.

I speculate the "fit" was not right then and I do not think that has changed all that much to present time for several reasons, endowment being one of them. Alluding to your impression.

In the future who knows? Right now I think Marist and the PL are better off being associated through out of conference matchups in all sports. xtwocentsx

[carney2]

ZZZZZZZZ Z Z Z zzzzzzz zzz zz z z z z...

[Go...gate]

The '83 Columbia game was sort of the "straw that broke the camel's back" type-game....what drove the creation of the PL was that HC was beating the Ivies regularly, UNH was beating Dartmouth, UConn was beating Yale, URI was beating Brown etc. etc by the early/mid 80's and the Ivies were looking for teams that they could beat to replace (or if not replace, at least augment) a lot of these schools on their schedules.


Delaware 61, Princeton 8 (1981) is another game to which the formation of the Patriot League is attributed. Played at old Palmer Stadium, it was arguably the worst bloodbath I have ever seen, save the 58-7 Miami - ND game in 1985 and 68-6 Rutgers - Colgate game in 1993.

[Fordham]

My point is that the PL should be open to schools like URI where applicable. The old guard seems unwilling to consider state-sponsored schools to the mix.

How would URI, et. al. be able to recruit with the league wide PL AI?

[Fordham]

KEN ....
ZZZZZZZZ Z Z Z zzzzzzz zzz zz z z z z...

[Franks Tanks]

How would URI, et. al. be able to recruit with the league wide PL AI?

Not really possible is it. School specific AI would make so much more sense.

[RichH2]

Individual school AI, sounds good in theory and in an ideal world Iwould be in favor of it. Pre FU, PL used it with little adverse impact. that said it did not help Towson.

[Ken_Z]

KEN ....




ZZZZZZZZ Z Z Z zzzzzzz zzz zz z z z z...



it is a well known fact that Carney idolizes me. he has now taken to simply cheering as above. reminiscent of the old Booooooog Powel chant. i guess he really likes my Howard U. suggestion.

[bison137]

Not really possible is it. School specific AI would make so much more sense.


As I understand it , the AI is school specific. I've been told that each school's bands are determined by the relationship between a given band and the average AI for the school (which is based on SAT score and GPA). What is not school specific, however, is the floor.

[WMTribe90]

I'm sick of this. Everyone can just go sell their collective souls for the right to play at Pizza Palace or whatever you call it in a game that no one watches or cares about. I'd rather just play football like we always have against the schools I know and care about. This is starting to get insane.

Here's the thing though Bogus, VU, Furman, Wofford, UR and WM have demonstrated that at the FCS level you don't have to choose between success at the highest level on the field and in the classroom, it's not an either/or proposition. At the FBS/BCS level, it is no longer possible to achieve at the highest level without compromising principles and standards, which is why WM will never move back to the FBS level as it currently operates.

The PL has made itself irrelevant on the FCS landscape and has no one else to blame. I fail to see how offering athletic scholarships would diminish or tarnish the academic reputations of the memeber schools. WM, UR and VU are thriving in the CAA, maintaining a proper balance and offering scholarships.

Perhaps one the PL posters could explain the reluctance to offer athletic scholarships. Tradtion, cost, association with the non-scholarship Ivy league?

[carney2]

it is a well known fact that Carney idolizes me. he has now taken to simply cheering as above. reminiscent of the old Booooooog Powel chant. i guess he really likes my Howard U. suggestion.

Alright, class, I want 1,000 words, properly referenced and footnoted on

"KenZ: Mindless Daydream or Nightmare?"

[bison137]

Perhaps on the PL posters could explain the reluctance to offer athletic scholarships. Tradtion, cost, association with the non-scholarship Ivy league?

At one time tradition was a factor. Now it is only cost. Direct cost plus Title IX cost.

[Sader87]

Here's the thing though Bogus, VU, Furman, Wofford, UR and WM have demonstrated that at the FCS level you don't have to choose between success at the highest level on the field and in the classroom, it's not an either/or proposition. At the FBS/BCS level, it is no longer possible to achieve at the highest level without compromising principles and standards, which is why WM will never move back to the FBS level as it currently operates.

The PL has made itself irrelevant on the FCS landscape and has no one else to blame. I fail to see how offering athletic scholarships would diminish or tarnish the academic reputations of the memeber schools. WM, UR and VU are thriving in the CAA, maintaining a proper balance and offering scholarships.

Perhaps one the PL posters could explain the reluctance to offer athletic scholarships. Tradtion, cost, association with the non-scholarship Ivy league?

The PL was created as a genuflection to the Ivy League first and foremost. Holy Cross was the only school who had a tradition of football scholarships (at the D1/FBS and 1-AA/FCS level...Colgate posters will obviously know better, but I don't think they ever had full scholarships though how they were able to get some players (Hubbard, van Eeghan, Gamble, Calabria et. al.) there w/out them remains a mystery to me.

HC has always been the "square peg" in a round hole league. Besides being the only school to have offered football scholarships, it had no history with the Pennsylvania schools in the PL (HC played Bucknell twice (1925 and 1953), Lehigh once (1924) and had never played Lafayette before the league's creation in 1986), it is also very much geographically and institutionally isolated from the "core 4" of the PL.

I don't disagree that it is an economic issue (especially in today's climate) right now but the biggest hurdle to bringing scholarships to the PL remains the fear that the Ivies would not schedule the PL schools if they were to institute them.

[colorless raider]

That is correct Ken

[Go...gate]

[/B]

The PL was created as a genuflection to the Ivy League first and foremost. Holy Cross was the only school who had a tradition of football scholarships (at the D1/FBS and 1-AA/FCS level...Colgate posters will obviously know better, but I don't think they ever had full scholarships though how they were able to get some players (Hubbard, van Eeghan, Gamble, Calabria et. al.) there w/out them remains a mystery to me.

HC has always been the "square peg" in a round hole league. Besides being the only school to have offered football scholarships, it had no history with the Pennsylvania schools in the PL (HC played Bucknell twice (1925 and 1953), Lehigh once (1924) and had never played Lafayette before the league's creation in 1986), it is also very much geographically and institutionally isolated from the "core 4" of the PL.

I don't disagree that it is an economic issue (especially in today's climate) right now but the biggest hurdle to bringing scholarships to the PL remains the fear that the Ivies would not schedule the PL schools if they were to institute them.

Assuming that Colgate is in the "core 4", your logic is a bit flawed. Colgate and HC go back many years in athletics.

[Sader87]

Assuming that Colgate is in the "core 4", your logic is a bit flawed. Colgate and HC go back many years in athletics.

Really our only historical connection to PL football...if you don't count pre WW2 GTown&FU football rivalries.

[ngineer]

What must be kept in mind is that the one of driving motives was to have sports played among schools of like ACADEMICS and with athletes having similar characteristics of the student body as opposed to being pure mercenaries. Holy Cross belongs in that scenario.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Marist most certainly saw the benefit of being associated with such a fine academic league. I think an all member invite would seriously be considered by the school. Academics is a top priority with the adminstration.

I know for a fact that a PL invite was not extended.

I speculate the "fit" was not right then and I do not think that has changed all that much to present time for several reasons, endowment being one of them. Alluding to your impression.

This is my whole problem with the process. There should be give-and-take when it comes to stuff like this: Marist should say, "we'll beef up our academics/football/whatever", and the Patriot League should say, "that's great - though we're going to scholarship football, we'll phase it in slowly so you won't be killed 60-6 in the first five years of membership". But that's not how it seems to happen. The Patriot League seems to say, "sorry, you're not good enough for our kind, academically/athletically/public institution/poor TV market", and that's the end of the discussion. Marist then has no incentive to want to join the club.

Georgetown's way in the PL has been rocky, no question. And Towson was a tough fit in the PL as well. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. "Fits" should not need to be perfect. They should consist of schools and a league that are close, with a plan to get there.

And folks with dreams of attracting Villanova, W&M or Richmond just play into this as well. They will never want to join as long as the CAA exists in its current form, and the sooner everyone accepts that the better. It was one thing to propose that when these three were all struggling in the CAA - now, two have won national championships and W&W made the semis last year. Proposing it now would be a farce. National champions are a "fit" anywhere.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My point is that the PL should be open to schools like URI where applicable. The old guard seems unwilling to consider state-sponsored schools to the mix.


How would URI, et. al. be able to recruit with the league wide PL AI?

I talked about this a few months ago in my blog (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/01/way-to-save-patriot-league.html). But some of the highlights I can go over here. For a state school in, say, Pennsylvania or Texas, the in state vs. out-of-state tuition break and academic requirements differences can be vast. But for state schools like UNH, Maine or URI, how many in-state athletes are you really recruiting? In my blog, I mentioned that UNH only had 17 New Hampshire athletes on their roster out of about 100. For those other eighty or so students, they have to recruit out-of-state exactly like, say, Holy Cross does. Futhermore, it's not like Maine or UNH are hotbeds of football talent. Frequently, their best players are out of state (ex. Ricky Santos).

Furthermore, UNH and Maine have good overall academic numbers as well. They are perennial APR high-achievers, also putting them in the PL academic mold as well even though they're public schools.

Most importantly, though, the PL model should be flexible enough to accommodate private schools as well. This goes back to the give-and-take I mentioned in my last post. There needs to be some creativity (in a good academic way) and some movement on both sides to make things work. I don't think URI's academics are a great match for the PL , but I do think UNH and Maine's academics are, however, with a fresh look at making the AI work for publics.

[Sader87]

The PL will never accept nor will any of the New England public universities ever apply to the PL though I wish they would. HC (and its fan-dom, alums and non-alums alike) has much more in common (historically) football-wise with UMass, URI and UNH than it does with Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette.

[MplsBison]

The PL will never accept nor will any of the New England public universities ever apply to the PL though I wish they would. HC (and its fan-dom, alums and non-alums alike) has much more in common (historically) football-wise with UMass, URI and UNH than it does with Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette.

And from your history, you don't appear to harbor any faux-ethical grudge against athletic merit aid.

[Bogus Megapardus]

And from your history, you don't appear to harbor any faux-ethical grudge against athletic merit aid.

Get this - MplsBison is calling Fr. Brooks, "faux ethical." Them's fightin' words, I think, even for Sader87.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I talked about this a few months ago in my blog (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/01/way-to-save-patriot-league.html). But some of the highlights I can go over here. For a state school in, say, Pennsylvania or Texas, the in state vs. out-of-state tuition break and academic requirements differences can be vast. But for state schools like UNH, Maine or URI, how many in-state athletes are you really recruiting? In my blog, I mentioned that UNH only had 17 New Hampshire athletes on their roster out of about 100. For those other eighty or so students, they have to recruit out-of-state exactly like, say, Holy Cross does. Futhermore, it's not like Maine or UNH are hotbeds of football talent. Frequently, their best players are out of state (ex. Ricky Santos).

Furthermore, UNH and Maine have good overall academic numbers as well. They are perennial APR high-achievers, also putting them in the PL academic mold as well even though they're public schools.

Most importantly, though, the PL model should be flexible enough to accommodate private schools as well. This goes back to the give-and-take I mentioned in my last post. There needs to be some creativity (in a good academic way) and some movement on both sides to make things work. I don't think URI's academics are a great match for the PL , but I do think UNH and Maine's academics are, however, with a fresh look at making the AI work for publics.

And of those 17 in-staters at UNH, the majority are walk-ons. I'll take a guess that UNH averages one NH scholarship recruit a season and rarely has more than two in-staters in an announced class. Massachusetts used to be the state with those most scholarship players, but in the past few years it has been New Jersey or Pennsylvania. UNH is even more heavily dependent on out-of-staters that the picture you paint.

To the best of my knowledge, UNH did indeed discuss membership with the Patriot folks back in the late 80's/early 90's. Like most people, many folks at UNH mistakenly thought the Patriot brand of non-scholarship football would save boatloads of money. As I understand it, the Patriot said no because they felt that even with agreeable academic standards, they felt UNH would have an unfair advantage because it was less expensive than a Patriot school.

As I see things, one possible scenario that could materialize after the conference expansion/implosion process plays out is the Patriot not offering scholarships, losing for example Fordham, Colgate and Holy Cross. Might the PL-3 then opt for an association with Maine, UNH, Albany, Delaware, Towson, W&M and Richmond where some level of much higher than NCAA academic standards are agreed upon. I'm not saying this is imminent, just that it's one possible scenario.

If the Patriot offers scholarships (and then keeps their current members including Fordham) and the CAA becomes a low level FBS conference, then the PL would have a shot at VU, W&M and UR. BTW, Maine and UNH could be SOL in this scenario unless Delaware, Towson, Stony Brook and UMass don't opt for this FBS league. W&M and UR could just as easily look back to the SoCon (now assuming that GaSoU and App State have also moved on to FBS making the SoCon a primarily small private school league). Would the Patriot find a way to bring Maine, UNH and/or Villanova into the fold?

[Bogus Megapardus]

they felt UNH would have an unfair advantage because it was less expensive than a Patriot school.



This is entirely true and was a point of contention with Towson. UNH is quite unique because not only is most of the football team from out of state, most of the student body in general is as well. And non-athletes from out of state pay full tuition/room/board of $37,494 at UNH - much closer to PL numbers. With scholarships, the cost difference disappears and what remains is UNH as a very high quality academic school (no degrees in Bovine Lactate Extraction offered there) with a geographically diverse population and a long football history with Ivy & Patriot schools. It's an excellent PL fit. But UNH would never in a million years consider the PL even if it meant dropping football altogether.

[UAalum72]

This is entirely true and was a point of contention with Towson. UNH is quite unique because not only is most of the football team from out of state, most of the student body in general is as well. And non-athletes from out of state pay full tuition/room/board of $37,494 at UNH - much closer to PL numbers.
More than typical state schools, but hardly 'most' - as you might expect from a small state with much more populous states nearby.

UNH Undergraduate students’ top ten home states %
1. New Hampshire, 58%
2. Massachusetts, 22
3. Connecticut, 6
4. Maine, 4
5. New York, 3
6. Vermont, 2
7. New Jersey, 2
8. Rhode Island, 2
9. Pennsylvania, 1
10. California, <1

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

More than typical state schools, but hardly 'most' - as you might expect from a small state with much more populous states nearby.

UNH Undergraduate students’ top ten home states %
1. New Hampshire, 58%
2. Massachusetts, 22
3. Connecticut, 6
4. Maine, 4
5. New York, 3
6. Vermont, 2
7. New Jersey, 2
8. Rhode Island, 2
9. Pennsylvania, 1
10. California, <1

Curious where you got those figures from because I've often heard that UNH was much closer to 50% out of state.

And for those who harbor ideas about Vermont resurrecting football, AFAIK they are over 70% out-of-state, just about as expensive as UNH and maybe even more dependent on out-of-staters for football players.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

This is entirely true and was a point of contention with Towson. UNH is quite unique because not only is most of the football team from out of state, most of the student body in general is as well. And non-athletes from out of state pay full tuition/room/board of $37,494 at UNH - much closer to PL numbers. With scholarships, the cost difference disappears and what remains is UNH as a very high quality academic school (no degrees in Bovine Lactate Extraction offered there) with a geographically diverse population and a long football history with Ivy & Patriot schools. It's an excellent PL fit. But UNH would never in a million years consider the PL even if it meant dropping football altogether.

Beg to differ, but given the choice of dropping football and considering the Patriot, IMHO I think UNH would very seriously consider the Patriot. Ditto for reduced scholarship NEC football. Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross, Fordham, etc. is a very, very different discussion for UNH than Sacred Heart, Wagner, Monmouth, SFPA, Duquesne, etc.

[MplsBison]

This is entirely true and was a point of contention with Towson. UNH is quite unique because not only is most of the football team from out of state, most of the student body in general is as well. And non-athletes from out of state pay full tuition/room/board of $37,494 at UNH - much closer to PL numbers. With scholarships, the cost difference disappears and what remains is UNH as a very high quality academic school (no degrees in Bovine Lactate Extraction offered there) with a geographically diverse population and a long football history with Ivy & Patriot schools. It's an excellent PL fit. But UNH would never in a million years consider the PL even if it meant dropping football altogether.

http://www.dairy.unh.edu/

UNH is a land grant school (same as NDSU) so they most definitely have degree programs to support the agricultural sector of the state, naturally including animal science.


I assume such things automatically preclude both NDSU and UNH from PL membership. Wouldn't want those types in the country club anyway.

[UAalum72]

Curious where you got those figures from because I've often heard that UNH was much closer to 50% out of state.

And for those who harbor ideas about Vermont resurrecting football, AFAIK they are over 70% out-of-state, just about as expensive as UNH and maybe even more dependent on out-of-staters for football players.
Of course that's 42% OOS
http://www.unh.edu/unhedutop/about-unh

UVM - 66% from out-of-state

http://www.uvm.edu/about_uvm/?Page=facts.html

[Bogus Megapardus]

Beg to differ, but given the choice of dropping football and considering the Patriot, IMHO I think UNH would very seriously consider the Patriot. Ditto for reduced scholarship NEC football. Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross, Fordham, etc. is a very, very different discussion for UNH than Sacred Heart, Wagner, Monmouth, SFPA, Duquesne, etc.

Understood, but I neglected to add that I think the PL wants to add all-sports members only which would make it a much tougher dilemma for UNH if the CAA decided to "go south." Now . . . if UNH said yes to all-sports membership with scholarship football but only if Lafayette & Lehigh agreed to upgrade their club hockey and reinstate it at varsity level - that would make for an interesting proposition.

[WestCoastAggie]

So Howard was mentioned about 4 times in this thread. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is entirely true and was a point of contention with Towson. UNH is quite unique because not only is most of the football team from out of state, most of the student body in general is as well. And non-athletes from out of state pay full tuition/room/board of $37,494 at UNH - much closer to PL numbers. With scholarships, the cost difference disappears and what remains is UNH as a very high quality academic school (no degrees in Bovine Lactate Extraction offered there) with a geographically diverse population and a long football history with Ivy & Patriot schools. It's an excellent PL fit. But UNH would never in a million years consider the PL even if it meant dropping football altogether.


Beg to differ, but given the choice of dropping football and considering the Patriot, IMHO I think UNH would very seriously consider the Patriot. Ditto for reduced scholarship NEC football. Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross, Fordham, etc. is a very, very different discussion for UNH than Sacred Heart, Wagner, Monmouth, SFPA, Duquesne, etc.

The real positive point for UNH and Maine (FYI, I would not remove the Black Bears from this discussion) in a different league than the CAA is travel costs. They have mentioned that several times to the CAA leadership, and two of their shorter road trips (Hofstra, N'Eastern) have suddenly disappeared from the league schedule. UMass and URI are the only easy trips right now for the Durham and Orono faithful to watch league games. The Patriot League could make some of that travel easier, opening up league games with Colgate, Fordham and Holy Cross, and possible games with Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Brown or others as added bonuses.

To the PL, taking UNH and Maine as a unit means the PL now covers the entire Northeast, gains a great rivalry (the Brice/Cowell Musket) and gets nine football members, all with history and some with recent playoff history. And it's not like it would be out of the question to get them as all-sports members. It's a wash in basketball (America East/Patriot League), and academically it would cement their place as a great academic school as well. There is a lot to like for the president/faculty there for a full PL membership. (UMass and URI, on the other hand, are not leaving the A-10, are not as good academically as UNH and Maine and would never leave the A-10 for the PL.)

It's a non-starter right now, however, because the PL does not allow football scholarships, and UNH and Maine football couldn't survive with an AI and the scholarship restriction. But there's reason to believe that UNH and Maine would not be adversely affected by the PL's AI should the league allow scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Aren't UMass/URI/UNH/Maine as attached to the hip as are Lehigh/Colgate/Bucknell/Lafayette?

[Jackman]

(UMass and URI, on the other hand, are not leaving the A-10, are not as good academically as UNH and Maine and would never leave the A-10 for the PL.)

By what faulty measure have you mistakenly determined that UMass is not academically superior to UNH and Maine?


Aren't UMass/URI/UNH/Maine as attached to the hip as are Lehigh/Colgate/Bucknell/Lafayette?

No. URI's move should make that obvious. The only two with even a thin rubber band of attachment are Maine and UNH, particularly from Maine's side.

[Go...gate]

When does the moratorium on Division change end again? We had discussed this at one time and I cannot remember. I still wonder if the real answer to this will not come in a D-III moving up.

[Bogus Megapardus]

When does the moratorium on Division change end again? We had discussed this at one time and I cannot remember. I still wonder if the real answer to this will not come in a D-III moving up.

"The moratorium is imposed for a four-year period and is scheduled to expire August 9, 2011, prior to the beginning of the 2011-2012 academic year."

NCAA FAQ (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/NCAA/About%20The%20NCAA/Membership/Membership%20Requirements%20and%20Waivers/Division%20I/DIMoratoriumFAQ)

I had heard that a school will have to move to Division II before moving to Division I, but that might not have been adopted. Oh please, Lord, let it be Hopkins . . . .

EDIT - another thing: with all the talk about "all-sport only" expansion, the Patriot League didn't seem to blink an eyelash when it came to admitting MIT to the league for rowing.

[MplsBison]

The real positive point for UNH and Maine (FYI, I would not remove the Black Bears from this discussion) in a different league than the CAA is travel costs. They have mentioned that several times to the CAA leadership, and two of their shorter road trips (Hofstra, N'Eastern) have suddenly disappeared from the league schedule. UMass and URI are the only easy trips right now for the Durham and Orono faithful to watch league games. The Patriot League could make some of that travel easier, opening up league games with Colgate, Fordham and Holy Cross, and possible games with Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Brown or others as added bonuses.

To the PL, taking UNH and Maine as a unit means the PL now covers the entire Northeast, gains a great rivalry (the Brice/Cowell Musket) and gets nine football members, all with history and some with recent playoff history. And it's not like it would be out of the question to get them as all-sports members. It's a wash in basketball (America East/Patriot League), and academically it would cement their place as a great academic school as well. There is a lot to like for the president/faculty there for a full PL membership. (UMass and URI, on the other hand, are not leaving the A-10, are not as good academically as UNH and Maine and would never leave the A-10 for the PL.)

It's a non-starter right now, however, because the PL does not allow football scholarships, and UNH and Maine football couldn't survive with an AI and the scholarship restriction. But there's reason to believe that UNH and Maine would not be adversely affected by the PL's AI should the league allow scholarships.

NCAA's calculated APR for 2008-2009 school year:

Football:

Maine - 980
New Hampshire - 977
Rhode Island - 938
Mass - 927

Lehigh - 968
Lafayette - 974
Bucknell - 980
Colgate - 981

Bball:

Maine - 948
New Hampshire - 907
Rhode Island - 950
Mass - 930
Vermont - 969

Lehigh - 1000
Lafayette - 981
Bucknell - 994
Colgate - 981

I don't know how APR works, but I suspect it only looks at GPA and that it's not weighted in the slightest for difficulty of classes.

Therefore, I think it's safe to say that someone taking a class at a PL school is going to have a much tougher time maintaining a 3.0 than someone taking classes at a NE public flagship.

And even WITH that advantage, the NE public flagships are still significantly below the PL schools on average in APR for bball, while in football NH/ME do seem to be on par with PL schools while MA/RI are lower. But again, keep in mind that the NH/ME football players could be taking the easiest classes offered in the schools while at LC/LU there is no such thing as an easy class.



So...those of you who don't think twice that the FCS NE public flagships would be "just fine" in a Patriot League with 63 scholarships, but that still had an AI in place....think again!

The AI will have to be abolished for the NE public flagships to survive in a scholarship PL.


Do the current PL schools have the guts to look themselves in the mirror and say "we know in our hearts that we can maintain our high admission standards, even for football and bball recruits, without an AI-overlord to govern us"?

I know the country club admin are terrified of the answer...

[MplsBison]

By the way, does the Ivy League have an AI?

As far as I know, each of the schools in the Ivy League trusts the others enough to let them govern themselves on if athletes are meeting the school's individual admission requirements.

[MplsBison]

When does the moratorium on Division change end again? We had discussed this at one time and I cannot remember. I still wonder if the real answer to this will not come in a D-III moving up.

MIT and Johns Hopkins are the two of the best research universities in the world. If they move up to DI from DIII, they belong with their academic peers........in the Ivy League.

[Bogus Megapardus]

By the way, does the Ivy League have an AI?



Yes it does, and the PL has received much criticism for co-opting and applying wholesale the Ivy League's academic index formula rather than trying to seek an identity of its own. Then again, elements of the Ivy League itself decry it because all students at the top three Ivies essentially can go for free (http://www.metaezra.com/archive/2010/01/report_ivy_league_investigatin.shtml) if they are admitted.


But again, keep in mind that the NH/ME football players could be taking the easiest classes offered in the schools while at LC/LU there is no such thing as an easy class.

You are overlooking the fact that PL athletes are not looking to take the "easiest possible classes." That's not why they chose to enroll. A host of other options are available elsewhere for those who are.

[ngineer]

I thought the APR also took into account graduation within 5 years of entry?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Understood, but I neglected to add that I think the PL wants to add all-sports members only which would make it a much tougher dilemma for UNH if the CAA decided to "go south." Now . . . if UNH said yes to all-sports membership with scholarship football but only if Lafayette & Lehigh agreed to upgrade their club hockey and reinstate it at varsity level - that would make for an interesting proposition.

Don't get too carried away by bringing Ice Hockey into the mix. At the present time, ice hockey revolves in a separate universe called Hockey East. Breaking that association would be a deal breaker. All sports membership for just about everything else would be negotiable. A significant number of UNH hockey fans don't give a rat's arse about the rest of the athletic department. A change from America East to anything else would hardly get their attention. Breaking UNH hockey away from Hockey East would start a revolution that would make the Richmond uprising against PL Football pale in comparison. xnodx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The real positive point for UNH and Maine (FYI, I would not remove the Black Bears from this discussion) in a different league than the CAA is travel costs. They have mentioned that several times to the CAA leadership, and two of their shorter road trips (Hofstra, N'Eastern) have suddenly disappeared from the league schedule. UMass and URI are the only easy trips right now for the Durham and Orono faithful to watch league games. The Patriot League could make some of that travel easier, opening up league games with Colgate, Fordham and Holy Cross, and possible games with Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Brown or others as added bonuses.

To the PL, taking UNH and Maine as a unit means the PL now covers the entire Northeast, gains a great rivalry (the Brice/Cowell Musket) and gets nine football members, all with history and some with recent playoff history. And it's not like it would be out of the question to get them as all-sports members. It's a wash in basketball (America East/Patriot League), and academically it would cement their place as a great academic school as well. There is a lot to like for the president/faculty there for a full PL membership. (UMass and URI, on the other hand, are not leaving the A-10, are not as good academically as UNH and Maine and would never leave the A-10 for the PL.)

It's a non-starter right now, however, because the PL does not allow football scholarships, and UNH and Maine football couldn't survive with an AI and the scholarship restriction. But there's reason to believe that UNH and Maine would not be adversely affected by the PL's AI should the league allow scholarships.

LFN, come on, if Fordham has a problem with the current AI, then Maine and UNH definitely would too. I didn't think I needed to say that for any serious Patriot consideration by UNH (or Maine) that the AI would have to be modified. I'm proud of the academic achievements by our football team and I know many players are in challenging majors and none are in "gut" majors. But we're not talking about Ivy-Lite institutions at any of the Northeast Publics!

Despite their geographic proximity, UNH has virtually no gridiron history with Harvard, Brown, Yale or Columbia. And what little there is came before WWII! We're getting way ahead of ourselves here, but joining the Patriot wouldn't be to gain access to play the Ivies. It would be to maintain playing scholarship football at the highest level of FCS with other schools in the Northeast who value academics for their athletes.

I would think that all sports membership could be achieved especially if America East imploded (BU can't wait to leave), Stony Brook Football stays in the Big South or upgrades, Albany Football stays in the NEC, etc.

Transportation costs on their own aren't going to be significant enough to bring UNH (I won't speak for Maine) to the Patriot. Look at Villanova, going to the Patriot for football would significantly save them in transportation costs. And would provide local rivals in LU, LC and Bucknell along with aligning with a Big East mate named Georgetown and paroachial brothers Fordham and Holy Cross. Yet, the Patriot can't woo Nova, why would just transportation savings woo UNH or Maine?

As I'm reading the tea leaves, UNH isn't leaving the CAA Football League unless it becomes an FBS league. And even then it will depend on who is left standing in the FCS pool as I seriously doubt the entire current membership would go to FBS.

And I think it's pretty obvious that for the Patriot to add any public schools then they need football scholarships, kept Fordham in the fold, modify the AI, etc. But if you did that, you could probably get Richmond, W&M, VMI and Villanova before having to consider a public flagship.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Aren't UMass/URI/UNH/Maine as attached to the hip as are Lehigh/Colgate/Bucknell/Lafayette?

Hardly, Maine and UNH play in one all sports league while UMass and URI play in another. I'll let a Maine poster speak for the Black Bears, but UNH doesn't often play UMass or URI in OOC meetings in other sports despite the geographic proximity. It has been almost three decades since they've all been in an all sports league (ECAC North IIRC) and back into the late 70's for the Yankee Conference days.

UNH-UMass ==> Football and Ice Hockey have very robust rivalries, virtually nonexistent rivalries in other sports.
UNH-URI ==> Football "rivalry", virtually nonexistent rivalries in other sports.

UNH occasionally plays URI in basketball and it's a guarantee ($$$) game for UNH. UMass wouldn't schedule a basketball game with UNH even when they had a senior from Concord, NH no matter how one sided the deal was for UMass and the Homecoming Game with UNH as the host was at the Verizon Center in Manchester rather than on campus. Even Florida from the SEC gave UNH a two for one deal when his older brother played for the Gators.

UNH Football wants to stay associated with UMass Football. Not sure that qualifies as joined at the hip like the Patriot Four!

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

By what faulty measure have you mistakenly determined that UMass is not academically superior to UNH and Maine?

I'm not going to get into a pissing match between the academic qualities of the three schools, but my observation over these past forty plus years is that UNH has more stringent academic standards for athletes. I don't know if that is what LFN meant or not.

[Jackman]

I'm willing to believe that UMass is less picky than UNH and Maine when it comes to recruiting student-athletes. But as for the universities as a whole, the usual ranking sources don't support his statement. UMass is usually ahead of the other three.

[JoltinJoe]

I'm willing to believe that UMass is less picky than UNH and Maine when it comes to recruiting student-athletes. But as for the universities as a whole, the usual ranking sources don't support his statement. UMass is usually ahead of the other three.

Out of those four, UMass may well be ahead of UNH and Maine.

But we can all agree that URI is the bottom. xsmiley_wix

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, come on, if Fordham has a problem with the current AI, then Maine and UNH definitely would too. I didn't think I needed to say that for any serious Patriot consideration by UNH (or Maine) that the AI would have to be modified. I'm proud of the academic achievements by our football team and I know many players are in challenging majors and none are in "gut" majors. But we're not talking about Ivy-Lite institutions at any of the Northeast Publics!

No, what I'm saying is that at public schools there are two-tiered admissions that don't exist at private schools. UNH's charter dictates that they accept New Hampshire residents. AFAIK there isn't a large difference between the admissions standards of in-state and out-of-state residence, but there is a difference. All I'm saying is that the AI would need to be computed from the out-of-state academic numbers, not the overall class. It's a minor adjustment, really - and considering UNH recruits most students out-of-state anyway, it won't make much difference. Basically, the AI functionally works the same - I'm not proposing "dumbing down" the AI or anything.


Despite their geographic proximity, UNH has virtually no gridiron history with Harvard, Brown, Yale or Columbia. And what little there is came before WWII! We're getting way ahead of ourselves here, but joining the Patriot wouldn't be to gain access to play the Ivies. It would be to maintain playing scholarship football at the highest level of FCS with other schools in the Northeast who value academics for their athletes.

But travel is a part of that, and the truth is the great majority of FCS-playing institutions in the Northeast are now Ivy or Patriot.


I would think that all sports membership could be achieved especially if America East imploded (BU can't wait to leave), Stony Brook Football stays in the Big South or upgrades, Albany Football stays in the NEC, etc.

Transportation costs on their own aren't going to be significant enough to bring UNH (I won't speak for Maine) to the Patriot. Look at Villanova, going to the Patriot for football would significantly save them in transportation costs. And would provide local rivals in LU, LC and Bucknell along with aligning with a Big East mate named Georgetown and paroachial brothers Fordham and Holy Cross. Yet, the Patriot can't woo Nova, why would just transportation savings woo UNH or Maine?

Wooing Nova is much more complicated, not least their football rivalry with Delaware. Nova also is centrally located - JMU is still a definite bus trip for them, and they even have a lot of FBS and FCS schools close by to play as well. That is true whether they're in the CAA, Patriot or wherever. OTOH UNH and Maine are far-flung no matter how you slice it.


As I'm reading the tea leaves, UNH isn't leaving the CAA Football League unless it becomes an FBS league. And even then it will depend on who is left standing in the FCS pool as I seriously doubt the entire current membership would go to FBS.

And I think it's pretty obvious that for the Patriot to add any public schools then they need football scholarships, kept Fordham in the fold, modify the AI, etc. But if you did that, you could probably get Richmond, W&M, VMI and Villanova before having to consider a public flagship.

I disagree with this. Yes, I agree that the PL needs to keep Fordham in the fold in any case (which requires scholarships). Also, any hope of getting Richmond or Villanova (or UMass, UNH, or Maine for that matter) would have football scholarships as a requirement. But I feel UNH and Maine's situations means the PL is more of an advantage for them. They need access to play private New England schools more than Villanova or Richmond does.

[Go...gate]

"The moratorium is imposed for a four-year period and is scheduled to expire August 9, 2011, prior to the beginning of the 2011-2012 academic year."

NCAA FAQ (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/NCAA/About%20The%20NCAA/Membership/Membership%20Requirements%20and%20Waivers/Division%20I/DIMoratoriumFAQ)

I had heard that a school will have to move to Division II before moving to Division I, but that might not have been adopted. Oh please, Lord, let it be Hopkins . . . .

EDIT - another thing: with all the talk about "all-sport only" expansion, the Patriot League didn't seem to blink an eyelash when it came to admitting MIT to the league for rowing.

Hell, let's shoot the works - Hopkins, Union and RPI!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The PL would be crazy not to consider Umass, UNH and Maine should the league adopt scholarships. Even with some sort of fair AI i think it would be beneficial to the state schools as well. The combination of top shelf public and private schools in the northeast and New England would only strengthen the conferences core beliefs imo.

[MplsBison]

The PL would be crazy not to consider Umass, UNH and Maine should the league adopt scholarships. Even with some sort of fair AI i think it would be beneficial to the state schools as well. The combination of top shelf public and private schools in the northeast and New England would only strengthen the conferences core beliefs imo.

There will be nothing left of an AI that incorporates public schools. You just can't do it. Public schools don't have the option nor the will to be as selective as private schools.

In addition to adding scholarships, the PL must either get rid of the AI or stick with the private route.


The line in the sand is drawn, get on a side! You either pick practicality or faux-ethical ideology.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The PL would be crazy not to consider Umass, UNH and Maine

I don't disagree about UNH but UMass is such a massive place with 27,000 students. Lafayette has a little over 2,000 students, and many of them look like they were hatched in a biology lab and are allergic to physical motion. I just feel like we'd get run over like Lee at Appomattox. Then again Cornell, Penn and Harvard all have over 20,000 and we're competitive with them, so I suppose its not that big of a deal.

Another thing, though - were I UNH, Maine or Stony Brook, I wouldn't necessarily want to see the PL get scholarships because regional recruiting pools will thin out considerably. That will be a lot of regional scholarship competition all at once.




The line in the sand is drawn, get on a side!



I'll pick whatever side of the line you're not on.

[DFW HOYA]

Another thing, though - were I UNH, Maine or Stony Brook, I wouldn't necessarily want to see the PL get scholarships because regional recruiting pools will thin out considerably. That will be a lot of regional scholarship competition all at once.


The recruiting pool doesn't really change at all, only the funding method (merit vs. need). The impact will be felt among the one (or maybe two) schools in the PL who would not offer scholarships, because the pool would not change but they would lose even more recruits to other offers.

[MplsBison]

The recruiting pool doesn't really change at all, only the funding method (merit vs. need). The impact will be felt among the one (or maybe two) schools in the PL who would not offer scholarships, because the pool would not change but they would lose even more recruits to other offers.

Exactly. PL schools are no more going to offer a football scholarship to a kid from CT who runs a 4.4 but has a 900 SAT than they are going to offer him a football grant.

Furthermore, I object to it being called "need-based aid". It's being paid to play football. That's why the NCAA counts the PL football grants as scholarship equivalencies - non-football students can't get them. Even if the amounts of the grants are supposedly based on need.

If the PL schools really wanted be "ethical", they would only offer institutional grants (that all students have equal chance to be awarded, in theory) to athletes. xcoffeex

[RichH2]

Ah the infamous jabberwocky logic from Bison. Need based aid is exactly that. Some get close to a full ride most just get a portion of their tuition.The need based aid is of course given because they are football players. The point is the amount they get is no more than what another student with same finances would get. Treated as equivalents. Not quite the same as non need based merit aid. With that , of course we could offer kids a full schollie ,while now we might only be able to offer a lower amount based on need.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Another big difference - if the kid quits football he still gets the need-based aid at a PL college and stays in school if he wants (no matter how personally infuriated the coach might get). Athletic scholarships, by contrast, typically are contingent on participation in the sport. There are many, many cases of athletes who were outstanding in high school who "used" a PL athletic department to get grants and to get admitted and then just quit once they got settled in. A good friend (who is now a surgeon) did just that.

[colorless raider]

Hell, let's shoot the works - Hopkins, Union and RPI!

I am more interested in bigger time football so forget all the Div 3 schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Another big difference - if the kid quits football he still gets the need-based aid at a PL college and stays in school if he wants (no matter how personally infuriated the coach might get). Athletic scholarships, by contrast, typically are contingent on participation in the sport. There are many, many cases of athletes who were outstanding in high school who "used" a PL athletic department to get grants and to get admitted and then just quit once they got settled in. A good friend (who is now a surgeon) did just that.

Likewise, my freshman roommate did the same thing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't disagree about UNH but UMass is such a massive place with 27,000 students. Lafayette has a little over 2,000 students, and many of them look like they were hatched in a biology lab and are allergic to physical motion. I just feel like we'd get run over like Lee at Appomattox. Then again Cornell, Penn and Harvard all have over 20,000 and we're competitive with them, so I suppose its not that big of a deal.

UMass and Holy Cross in the same conference? A former national champion? Athletically, I'm right there. If UMass were willing to play ball with the AI, I'm right there too.

I'm not sure, though, if the folks at UMass would accept it. I remember the mutiny when Richmond was merely thinking about scholarships. I just can't see UMass, who have a large contingent which think they should go FBS, going for it, even with scholarships. I'd be delighted to be proven wrong.

Just to say again, though, IMO UNH and Maine are in a different situation than UMass. There are no FBS pretenses. Small stadiums. Big-time travel issues.

Both might, by the way, also run over the PL like Lee at Appomattox. But long-term everyone should be helped.


Another thing, though - were I UNH, Maine or Stony Brook, I wouldn't necessarily want to see the PL get scholarships because regional recruiting pools will thin out considerably. That will be a lot of regional scholarship competition all at once.

That's an interesting point, but I don't think it's valid because the PL is basically recruiting nationally for the most part anyway. A few more Jersey kids might go locally to Lehigh or Lafayette - assuming they don't get offered by Penn, or Princeton, or Rutgers, or Penn State, or Syracuse, or Villanova, or... - but not enough, IMO, to make a whopping difference. Particularly with Stony Brook, where they just saw their only Long Island competition evaporate, their situation is still incredibly good.

[Go...gate]

I am more interested in bigger time football so forget all the Div 3 schools.

It's not happening without scholarships, though. Any idea about where the new CU President stands on this?

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's not happening without scholarships, though. Any idea about where the new CU President stands on this?

Yeah, to be clear - people (like me) are only calling for Hopkins/RPI to move up as all-sport members if the presidents dig in for the ride without scholarships. If we add scholarships I tend to think some existing schools might actually want to join the PL.

[Go...gate]

Yeah, to be clear - people (like me) are only calling for Hopkins/RPI to move up as all-sport members if the presidents dig in for the ride without scholarships. If we add scholarships I tend to think some existing schools might actually want to join the PL.

Right. Actually, I believe the PL with scholarships will become a very powerful FCS conference.

[Model Citizen]

Another big difference - if the kid quits football he still gets the need-based aid at a PL college and stays in school if he want...

But he'll lose the athletic portion of his aid package.

[Bogus Megapardus]

But he'll lose the athletic portion of his aid package.

There is no "athletic portion" in the PL, which is prohibited from providing athletic portions.

Sure, coaches will holler and threaten that a kid will lose his aid, but the school cannot make any portion of the aid contingent on athletic merit. The kid gets to keep the aid for which he qualified based on need and he gets to stay in school stay in school whether or not he ever laces up another pair of cleats.

[colorless raider]

He and the BOT support scholarships.

[Model Citizen]

I guess you didn't play football at Lafayette.

[RichH2]

Dont know about LC but if they did remove aid from kid who quit team they violated PL rules . N0 athletic schollies. As noted by others, my son's roommate quit after soph season kept his aid until he graduated.

[Model Citizen]

I don't know where some of you get your ideas. I get mine straight from the PL policies and procedures.

“In the sport of football, student-athletes may not be awarded financial aid based upon athletic ability in excess of demonstrated need…”

[Bogus Megapardus]

He and the BOT support scholarships.

Do you have a concrete source for the new president's scholarship support? I mean, it makes sense because the BOT supported it before. Also, shouldn't Colgate's AD be finished with his "sabbatical" about now? We're waiting for his magnum opus and to share in his learnings about how to crawl out of our PL sandbox and join the wider fray.

[Go...gate]

He and the BOT support scholarships.

OK. Glad to hear this.

[MplsBison]

Right. Actually, I believe the PL with scholarships will become a very powerful FCS conference.

Only if you also get rid of the AI.

Then you can go after football players who might not have elite high school grades but are elite on the field, while giving them an opportunity to attend a school they never could've attended otherwise. I know, it's a jagged pill for the country club gatekeepers to swallow, but even by letting in a a few kids with lower than perfect SAT, you're not going to change the academic makeup of the school enough to be significant.

[MplsBison]

There is no "athletic portion" in the PL, which is prohibited from providing athletic portions.

Sure, coaches will holler and threaten that a kid will lose his aid, but the school cannot make any portion of the aid contingent on athletic merit. The kid gets to keep the aid for which he qualified based on need and he gets to stay in school stay in school whether or not he ever laces up another pair of cleats.

He should get the same need-based aid overall, but it should not be coming as a football grant and it should not be counted against the team's football equivalencies, if he doesn't play.


What a backwards way to do it. Supposedly in the name of ethics. xcoffeex

[Go...gate]

[QUOTE=MplsBison;1529918]Only if you also get rid of the AI.

Highly unlikely. And I don't believe for a minute that the PL is a bunch of "country club" schools.

[ngineer]

I don't disagree about UNH but UMass is such a massive place with 27,000 students. Lafayette has a little over 2,000 students, and many of them look like they were hatched in a biology lab and are allergic to physical motion. I just feel like we'd get run over like Lee at Appomattox. Then again Cornell, Penn and Harvard all have over 20,000 and we're competitive with them, so I suppose its not that big of a deal.
Another thing, though - were I UNH, Maine or Stony Brook, I wouldn't necessarily want to see the PL get scholarships because regional recruiting pools will thin out considerably. That will be a lot of regional scholarship competition all at once.



I'll pick whatever side of the line you're not on.

A little generous there, unless you're including all graduate schools. Harvard's undergrad enrollment last year was 6,704. Don't have exact numbers on Cornell and Penn in 2009, BUT in 2008 Penn's undergrad enrollment was 10,500 and Cornell's was 13,700. So while they are certainly bigger than most PL schools, they're not gargantuan. Besides, I don't see enrollment size being all that relevant. You can only suit up about 90-100. I do agree that such proportions do make the number of seats available for the smaller schools a strain. But, look at Wofford whose enrollment, I think, is about 1500.

[MplsBison]

Highly unlikely. And I don't believe for a minute that the PL is a bunch of "country club" schools.

Then you aren't getting public schools in the PL. Simple as that.

Either pick the AI or pick adding publics to the league. Ain't no third way.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Maybe this bears repeating (although I don't know why I keep drawing myself into this) - Army and Navy are full members of the Patriot League. They comply with the league's academic index. Both are public schools.

[NHwildEcat]

The Ivy League is the only other conference that operates like the PL. The NE-10 gives very little aid in any manner and has no AI.

Plus, the NE-10 is unlikely to see one of its members show any great interest in moving up. I think the costs would just be too much for those small schools...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Plus, the NE-10 is unlikely to see one of its members show any great interest in moving up. I think the costs would just be too much for those small schools...

Didn't Bryant College move up from the NE-10?

[NHwildEcat]

Right...because I wasn't at a bar in NH watching the National Title game last year with a lot of people seemingly taking up interest in it. When the teams involved were not from the area...maybe you don't care about the National title game but some of us do.

[NHwildEcat]

Didn't Bryant College move up from the NE-10?

Correct, but I would highly doubt the other schools have much interest at this point.

[bison137]

Dont know about LC but if they did remove aid from kid who quit team they violated PL rules . N0 athletic schollies. As noted by others, my son's roommate quit after soph season kept his aid until he graduated.


Yes, they cannot remove aid. However they can, if the choose, change the former player's aid package to the same need-based financial aid that a non-athlete would get, i.e. less grants and more loans.

[bison137]

Furthermore, I object to it being called "need-based aid". It's being paid to play football. That's why the NCAA counts the PL football grants as scholarship equivalencies - non-football students can't get them. Even if the amounts of the grants are supposedly based on need.




As usual, you are wrong. All aid is need-based - and if that were the end of the story the aid would not count as equivalencies - just like the Ivy aid does not count as equivalencies. The amount of aid that a football player qualifies for is the same as a non-athlete qualifies for. However, the reason that the aid is considered to be related to athletics is that some athletes receive some/all of the aid they qualify for as a grant as opposed to a loan etc.

The total amount of aid they receive will not change if they stop playing football - although the structure might change.

[MplsBison]

Maybe this bears repeating (although I don't know why I keep drawing myself into this) - Army and Navy are full members of the Patriot League. They comply with the league's academic index. Both are public schools.

They're not state funded public schools.

[MplsBison]

As usual, you are wrong. All aid is need-based - and if that were the end of the story the aid would not count as equivalencies - just like the Ivy aid does not count as equivalencies. The amount of aid that a football player qualifies for is the same as a non-athlete qualifies for. However, the reason that the aid is considered to be related to athletics is that some athletes receive some/all of the aid they qualify for as a grant as opposed to a loan etc.

The total amount of aid they receive will not change if they stop playing football - although the structure might change.

Yeah, yeah, save it. We all know the real truth - football players at PL schools get access to money that they don't have to pay back that non-football players can't get. That's the bottom line, no matter how faux-ethical you try to make it out to be by pretending that it's the same thing as the need-based aid regular students get.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Then you aren't getting public schools in the PL. Simple as that.

Either pick the AI or pick adding publics to the league. Ain't no third way.

As I've amply demonstrated, you can create an AI that includes publics. The Ivy League has allowed Cornell (which is private, but has four state-funded statutory colleges that receive public funding) to compete in their league. If the IL can allow a partial land-grant school like Cornell to compete in their league, certainly the PL could expand to include tiny publics in the form of UNH and Maine, and possibly UMass as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yeah, yeah, save it. We all know the real truth - football players at PL schools get access to money that they don't have to pay back that non-football players can't get. That's the bottom line, no matter how faux-ethical you try to make it out to be by pretending that it's the same thing as the need-based aid regular students get.

Cellists also get access to grant money to attend college that non-cellists can't get. Are those also unfair? If they are, then every college in America needs to rethink their scholarship system... because every college offers scholarships in something, whether it be football or physics.

[MR. CHICKEN]

xnodx
I don't know if we are the most reviled conference, but we are certainly underestimated.

TRUE...GATE GUY.......DUH CHICKEN HAS WITNESSED...DUH POWER O' DUH PAT.....IN PLAYOFFS........AS LAUGHY-ETTE.....GAVE DUH BLUEBIRDS..ALL WE COOD HANDLE....FEW YEARS BACK.....YA'LL HAVE SHOWN WELL......WHIFF A FEW WINS...AN' SOME CLOSE NEAR MISSES....AGIN'...SOME O' DUH BEST..xnodx..BRAWK!

[DFW HOYA]

Yeah, yeah, save it. We all know the real truth - football players at PL schools get access to money that they don't have to pay back that non-football players can't get. That's the bottom line, no matter how faux-ethical you try to make it out to be by pretending that it's the same thing as the need-based aid regular students get.

That's not correct, at least from the PL school in the back of the line. There are a variety of loan buy-out "packages" at Georgetown that are offered and available to students at large and not specific to football--and given the lack of such packages in football, those students might be as competitive to receive an award outside the program as well.

[MplsBison]

That's not correct, at least from the PL school in the back of the line. There are a variety of loan buy-out "packages" at Georgetown that are offered and available to students at large and not specific to football--and given the lack of such packages in football, those students might be as competitive to receive an award outside the program as well.

I didn't say that non-football players can't get grants. I'm sure the schools have grants that all students can get.

I'm saying that non-football players can't get the grants that only football players get for their aid package. That's why the NCAA counts them as scholarship equivalencies and why the PL's faux-ethical attempt to masquerade them as the same "need-based aid" that all students get is a fraud.

[MplsBison]

Cellists also get access to grant money to attend college that non-cellists can't get. Are those also unfair? If they are, then every college in America needs to rethink their scholarship system... because every college offers scholarships in something, whether it be football or physics.

I advocate merit aid. I don't think anything about it is unfair. That was never what I was arguing.

I want the PL schools to stop pretending that they're being ethical by not giving merit aid when that's exactly what they're doing.

[MplsBison]

As I've amply demonstrated, you can create an AI that includes publics. The Ivy League has allowed Cornell (which is private, but has four state-funded statutory colleges that receive public funding) to compete in their league. If the IL can allow a partial land-grant school like Cornell to compete in their league, certainly the PL could expand to include tiny publics in the form of UNH and Maine, and possibly UMass as well.

Nice try, but you're doing nothing more than playing a semantic game.

It's the same false argument as trying to claim that because Army/Navy are in the PL, that public schools are in the PL.


UNH/UMaine are as different from Army/Navy and Cornell as they are from the rest of the PL schools and private schools in general. It's not the same and the PL's AI will never work with true, state funded public schools. Have to get rid of it.


Why so desperate to maintain the AI? It's a non-value add.

I just can't get it...not for the life of me. It's like a worshiped idol that everyone in the league is memorized by for some reason...brainwashed?

[Jackman]

Correct, but I would highly doubt the other schools have much interest at this point.

There's been smoke at Bentley. They've been regulars in the D-II basketball tournament.

[Bogus Megapardus]

because every college offers scholarships in something



As a Scot, the bagpipe scholarship at Carnegie Mellon remains an enduring favorite of mine. Speaking of a great regional fit for the PL . . . .

[DFW HOYA]

And that's the problem with the PL--some want the teams it will never have, some pine for some sort of collection of aspirant D-III schools, and those schools that wanted to apply are turned away at the door. If Georgetown applied today instead of 2000, some PL schools (and some of its fans) would decline the offer.

In short, there are no expansion targets. The PL had better hope it doesn't become a five team conference someday.

[Ken_Z]

I just can't get it...not for the life of me.

finally a statement we can all agree with.

[Go...gate]

xnodx

TRUE...GATE GUY.......DUH CHICKEN HAS WITNESSED...DUH POWER O' DUH PAT.....IN PLAYOFFS........AS LAUGHY-ETTE.....GAVE DUH BLUEBIRDS..ALL WE COOD HANDLE....FEW YEARS BACK.....YA'LL HAVE SHOWN WELL......WHIFF A FEW WINS...AN' SOME CLOSE NEAR MISSES....AGIN'...SOME O' DUH BEST..xnodx..BRAWK!

Thanks, Mr. Chicken!

[ngineer]

No, they're federally funded, with a highly competitive academic index.

[Seawolf97]

And that's the problem with the PL--some want the teams it will never have, some pine for some sort of collection of aspirant D-III schools, and those schools that wanted to apply are turned away at the door. If Georgetown applied today instead of 2000, some PL schools (and some of its fans) would decline the offer.

In short, there are no expansion targets. The PL had better hope it doesn't become a five team conference someday.

Exactly !

[MplsBison]

And that's the problem with the PL--some want the teams it will never have, some pine for some sort of collection of aspirant D-III schools, and those schools that wanted to apply are turned away at the door. If Georgetown applied today instead of 2000, some PL schools (and some of its fans) would decline the offer.

In short, there are no expansion targets. The PL had better hope it doesn't become a five team conference someday.

The option seems pretty obvious: drop the AI, add scholarships and become a NE regional powerhouse conference (at least in football) of mixed public/private teams.

Or, watch the PL die. Their choice.

[LBPop]

The PL had better hope it doesn't become a five team conference someday.

It pains me to write this, but sadly many people believe that it already is a five team football conference. And based on the Hoyas' performance the past few years, I can only refute that on a pure technicality.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It pains me to write this, but sadly many people believe that it already is a five team football conference. And based on the Hoyas' performance the past few years, I can only refute that on a pure technicality.

Actually, it's a four team conference. Set aside basketball (for which you sold your soul long ago to Max von Sydow) and the Hoyas still would be last in the Patriot League.

[DFW HOYA]

Set aside basketball (for which you sold your soul long ago to Max von Sydow) and the Hoyas still would be last in the Patriot League.

Was the 1940's that long ago?

I guess it also sold its soul for baseball, cross country, field hockey, golf, lacrosse, soccer, swimming, softball, tennis, track, and volleyball...rowing and sailing excepted.

[Go...gate]

And that's the problem with the PL--some want the teams it will never have, some pine for some sort of collection of aspirant D-III schools, and those schools that wanted to apply are turned away at the door. If Georgetown applied today instead of 2000, some PL schools (and some of its fans) would decline the offer.

In short, there are no expansion targets. The PL had better hope it doesn't become a five team conference someday.

It is clear, in retrospect, that Georgetown was invited without much thought as to how they would administer their program. The PL may not have had the juice to make Georgetown's admission as an Associate Member conditional. This is a contrast to American, which has had to make tangible changes to the way they handle athletics. Indeed, they are still working on the issue (for example, their athletes' graduation rates have lagged the PL).

[DFW HOYA]

It is clear, in retrospect, that Georgetown was invited without much thought as to how they would administer their program. The PL may not have had the juice to make Georgetown's admission as an Associate Member conditional.

Conditional on what? Georgetown plays by the PL's rules, abides by the AI, and places as many or more on the All-Academic team as any other school. If the PL had said "build a 7,000 seat stadium or else," that's one thing, but they did not. If the PL had said "45 equivalencies or else," that's another thing, but they did not, either.

Outside of the record, the program meets the PL guidelines unless you can prove otherwise.

[Go...gate]

Conditional on what? Georgetown plays by the PL's rules, abides by the AI, and places as many or more on the All-Academic team as any other school. If the PL had said "build a 7,000 seat stadium or else," that's one thing, but they did not. If the PL had said "45 equivalencies or else," that's another thing, but they did not, either.

Outside of the record, the program meets the PL guidelines unless you can prove otherwise.

Take it easy. Certainly the spirit of GU's acceptance of membership was a commitment to an effort to become competitive on the field. For whatever reason it has not happened. This is in contrast to Fordham, which eventually broke through.

[Sader87]

I view GTown's entry into the PL in football as akin to a tax write-off....something somewhat impalatable but something that had to be done to uphold their D1 status and to stay within the "right mix" of people.

[carney2]

Does anyone recall what "promises" have been made by the League in regard to expansion and scholarships? I recall at one point that Patriot League Ececutive Director Carolyn Femovich predicted (did not promise) that there would be word about expansion in the summer of 2010. That was, I believe, before Fordham went full scholarship. This brings me to the scholarship issue. What "promises" (again in quotes with this bunch) have been made to Fordham on the scholarship issue? We have all been laboring under the perception that Fordham would need to be informed this year. Is this merely logic on our part or have "promises" been made?

[Go...gate]

Does anyone recall what "promises" have been made by the League in regard to expansion and scholarships? I recall at one point that Patriot League Ececutive Director Carolyn Femovich predicted (did not promise) that there would be word about expansion in the summer of 2010. That was, I believe, before Fordham went full scholarship. This brings me to the scholarship issue. What "promises" (again in quotes with this bunch) have been made to Fordham on the scholarship issue? We have all been laboring under the perception that Fordham would need to be informed this year. Is this merely logic on our part or have "promises" been made?

No, you are indeed correct. That is also my recollection.

[DFW HOYA]

I view GTown's entry into the PL in football as akin to a tax write-off....something somewhat impalatable but something that had to be done to uphold their D1 status and to stay within the "right mix" of people.

How does joining the PL equate to a decision that "had to be done to uphold their D-I status"? Georgetown could have followed Duquesne and Marist by staying on the S.S. MAAC until that boat was underwater.

[Sader87]

How does joining the PL equate to a decision that "had to be done to uphold their D-I status"? Georgetown could have followed Duquesne and Marist by staying on the S.S. MAAC until that boat was underwater.

...it's all about the company you keep. Hey I feel the same way about HC in the PL...hard to shake the feeling we're the "poor cousins" in this PL family.

[carney2]

We continue to be entranced by 87 and Mpls chasing their tales. In the meantime I have asked what I believe is a legitimate and pertinent question. Since there was no response I'll try again:

What, if anything, has been promised to Fordham by the Patriot League Star Chamber regarding the Rams' release from football limbo? In other words, is there a firm commitment to defining the League's position on football scholarships in 2010 or is this just a dream created by regulars on this board so that we can hyperventilate every six months when the presidents meet?

[DFW HOYA]

To your point, I agree that Fordham expects a response by December, if for no other reason that it gives them time to either recommit or start looking for another conference by the fall of 2012. And owing to the league's lack of consensus, there are two options: status quo or an "every man for himself" policy that will allow schools to offer grants with an AI as each sees fit, so some teams will ramp up to 60 overnight and the usual suspects will stay with equivalencies (or lack thereof). It's a short-term move to keep Fordham that will sink the conference in the long run.

I also think an NEC-styled cap on scholarships won't fly, as this is tantamount to telling Fordham to leave.

[carney2]

I've poked around on the internet and find absolutely no evidence that a commitment of any kind has been made to Fordham. Here is an example of statements that were made based on the Patriot League press release back in the summer of 2009:

"The Patriot League Council of Presidents will continue to discuss both the competitive and financial implications of athletic scholarships for football as well as the long-term goals of the league."

They will "discuss," but with no time line.

For those of you who are looking at the December Council of Presidents meeting as the final word, don't bet on it.

[carney2]

To your point, I agree that Fordham expects a response by December, if for no other reason that it gives them time to either recommit or start looking for another conference by the fall of 2012. And owing to the league's lack of consensus, there are two options: status quo or an "every man for himself" policy that will allow schools to offer grants with an AI as each sees fit, so some teams will ramp up to 60 overnight and the usual suspects will stay with equivalencies (or lack thereof). It's a short-term move to keep Fordham that will sink the conference in the long run.

I also think an NEC-styled cap on scholarships won't fly, as this is tantamount to telling Fordham to leave.

My crystal ball says that there will be few winners in this scholarship hassle.

NO SCHOLARSHIPS/ SAME OLD, SAME OLD = Fordham bolts and the Patriot League continues to spiral down. It may continue to exist, but it will be the FCS joke.

63 SCHOLARSHIPS IMMEDIATELY = Georgetown bolts while Bucknell, Holy Cross and Lafayette are left drifting with the tide.

EACH SCHOOL DOES ITS OWN THING = Fordham is saved (maybe), Georgetown is saved (temporarily) and Bucknell, Holy Cross and Lafayette are left drifting with the tide.

It is very difficult to see a positive outcome to all of this.

[MplsBison]

If each school was allowed to ramp up scholarships as they saw fit, why would Bucknell, HC and Lafayette be left? Do each of those three have lacking financials or is it one of those faux-ethical things?

[Sader87]

If each school was allowed to ramp up scholarships as they saw fit, why would Bucknell, HC and Lafayette be left? Do each of those three have lacking financials or is it one of those faux-ethical things?

HC more than has the $$$ to fund football scholarships and if other PL schools go scholly and HC doesn't, I don't think I'd stop throwing up.

[ngineer]

The main sticking point for LC, BU and HC may be Title IX implications. By going scholarship, there may have to be a concomitant increase in scholarships for women's sports, unless there would be a reduction in other male sports OR a limited scholarship commitment that would be dependent on the women's teams receiving scholarship money. Therefore, I'm leaning toward a policy of allowing schools to offer athletic scholarships based on merit (with AI still in place) up to a max of 40, with balance of remaining 63 'equivalencies' being need-based grants. Just my sense and not based upon anything concrete.

[MplsBison]

The main sticking point for LC, BU and HC may be Title IX implications. By going scholarship, there may have to be a concomitant increase in scholarships for women's sports, unless there would be a reduction in other male sports OR a limited scholarship commitment that would be dependent on the women's teams receiving scholarship money. Therefore, I'm leaning toward a policy of allowing schools to offer athletic scholarships based on merit (with AI still in place) up to a max of 40, with balance of remaining 63 'equivalencies' being need-based grants. Just my sense and not based upon anything concrete.

The NCAA and the federal government count it the same regardless.

For example, 2008-09 the OPE equity in athletics website says that Lafayette gave $4.5 million to male athletes and $2.5 million to female athletes.
http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3231333338352679656 1723d32303038267264743d372f31312f323031302031313a3 4313a333620504d

If the football team simply gave the same dollars in scholarships instead of need-determined grants, the numbers wouldn't be any different.

[carney2]

If each school was allowed to ramp up scholarships as they saw fit, why would Bucknell, HC and Lafayette be left? Do each of those three have lacking financials or is it one of those faux-ethical things?

I cannot speak with any real knowledge about the other two, but Lafayette has a serious Title IX problem. It is complicated and not a simple "they would have to provide equal grants for women" as ngineer states. It would cost them some real money. Their women's programs, via the use of technical loopholes, are drastically underfunded and, to some extent, ignored. You can say "shouldn't be," but small schools sometimes cut corners to make things happen. Lafayette is one of the smallest schools in the country playing in D-1. Throw in 63 football scholarships and an equal number for women on top of what already exists and you would have something approaching 10% of the total student body on athletic scholarship. Is that realistic? Is that sustainable? Does it mesh with the goals of the institution? I believe that Bucknell has similar issues, at least as far as Title IX is concerned. As for Holy Cross, they appear neither willing nor anxious to jump back in the football scholarship boat and grab an oar, despite 87's bravado and "shoulda been in the Big Least" crapola. Both Bucknell and Holy Cross consider themselves basketball schools. The sheer size of the football thing could mean that not only would the tail be wagging the dog, but it might actually become the dog.

[carney2]

Back to my original reason for being here and a NOTE TO RICHH, LFN AND THE 'GATE GUYS:

I am now convinced that the Patriot League has not made any promises or commitments to Fordham regarding a football scholarship decision in 2010.

I believe that there is no certainty that a decision of any kind will be forthcoming at the December Presidents' Meeting.

LFN, you are the closest thing we have to an investigating journalist in this crowd. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The NCAA and the federal government count it the same regardless.

For example, 2008-09 the OPE equity in athletics website says that Lafayette gave $4.5 million to male athletes and $2.5 million to female athletes.
http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3231333338352679656 1723d32303038267264743d372f31312f323031302031313a3 4313a333620504d

If the football team simply gave the same dollars in scholarships instead of need-determined grants, the numbers wouldn't be any different.

The Title IX implications become quite apparent though.

[Ken_Z]

carney, my doubting friend, from the Bucknell Trustees report (April 2010):

Athletics Director John Hardt and I provided updates regarding the ongoing confidential discussions within the Patriot League about membership and financial aid policy in the sport of football. Central to these discussions is the current state of the Patriot League, plans for league membership, on-going discussions with other leagues about scheduling, and the potential impact of these plans on Bucknell's varsity program.

The genesis for much of these discussions is Fordham's decision to begin offering merit-based athletics scholarships in the sport of football, which the league currently prohibits. The committee continued its discussions of Bucknell's and the league's potential response to Fordham's decision. The league plans to provide a formal response to Fordham by December 2010 that will address any changes to the league's current financial aid policy for football.

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/Admin_Services/President/BOT/Spring10/BOTSummarySpringAnnual10.html

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I cannot speak with any real knowledge about the other two, but Lafayette has a serious Title IX problem. It is complicated and not a simple "they would have to provide equal grants for women" as ngineer states. It would cost them some real money. Their women's programs, via the use of technical loopholes, are drastically underfunded and, to some extent, ignored. You can say "shouldn't be," but small schools sometimes cut corners to make things happen. Lafayette is one of the smallest schools in the country playing in D-1. Throw in 63 football scholarships and an equal number for women on top of what already exists and you would have something approaching 10% of the total student body on athletic scholarship. Is that realistic? Is that sustainable? Does it mesh with the goals of the institution? I believe that Bucknell has similar issues, at least as far as Title IX is concerned. As for Holy Cross, they appear neither willing nor anxious to jump back in the football scholarship boat and grab an oar, despite 87's bravado and "shoulda been in the Big Least" crapola. Both Bucknell and Holy Cross consider themselves basketball schools. The sheer size of the football thing could mean that not only would the tail be wagging the dog, but it might actually become the dog.

A caveat: I don't have anything new at this point in regards to this. But I did revisit what I wrote at the time about this (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/06/4th-down-and-fordham-and-patriot-league.html) and there was plenty of evidence that there was *some* sort of agreement, but without a hard-and-fast deadline of December 2010.


As a result, the Patriot League Football Presidents have endorsed an agreement with Fordham wherein the Rams will continue their association with the League but will be ineligible for the Patriot League title and automatic playoff berth beginning that season, announced Patriot League Executive Director Carolyn Schlie Femovich on Friday...The Rams will be included in the League schedule through 2012, though their games against Patriot League members will not count in the League standings.

...

"There is strong desire both on the part of Fordham and the Patriot League to continue our long-standing relationship," said Bucknell President Brian C. Mitchell, the Chair of the Patriot League Council of Presidents. "The interim arrangement we have agreed to will allow Fordham to begin to award scholarships in football while affording the League time to address merit aid for football and broader issues related to membership expansion. This issue comes at a very difficult financial time on all of our campuses."

The Patriot League Council of Presidents will continue to discuss the competitive and financial implications of athletic merit aid for the League football membership as well as the long-term goals of the League. It is anticipated that a decision will be made no later than the end of 2010.

Fordham's eligibility for the League title and inclusion in the standings in future years will be evaluated pending the decision on athletic scholarships for all League members.

...

Lehigh AD Joe Sterrett: “The athletic merit financial aid awards that Lehigh offers in sports other than football have contributed positively to yielding student-athletes of desirable academic quality, strong athletic quality and other qualities that Lehigh values. We understand the reasons for Fordham’s decision and hope that the ongoing discussions will enable them to remain a member of the Patriot League.”

But even though December 2010 may not be a "hard deadline", just some mulling over the evidence points to it being an important point for Fordham. What we know is: Fordham will remain on PL schedules until 2012. December 2010 would be an appropriate point for Fordham to decide whether the Patriot League's scholarship plan is acceptable, and if not, they can pursue full-scholarship football elsewhere in 2013, giving them a two year window to transition to the new league if necessary.

I think your question is wrong. I think what it should be is: Are Fordham and the PL presidents on the same page as to the December 2010 deadline? The PL presidents may be of the notion that they can just delay this thing incessantly and wait for years to come to a real decision on this, while Fordham may see it as a hard deadline as to whether they're going to stay with the PL, or go. You rightfully see some waffling as to the commitment of the PL presidents on scholarships, but Fordham has to see that in a very different light. It is speculation on my part, but it is speculation that fits the facts of what we know about the agreement.

[carney2]

carney, my doubting friend, from the Bucknell Trustees report (April 2010):

Athletics Director John Hardt and I provided updates regarding the ongoing confidential discussions within the Patriot League about membership and financial aid policy in the sport of football. Central to these discussions is the current state of the Patriot League, plans for league membership, on-going discussions with other leagues about scheduling, and the potential impact of these plans on Bucknell's varsity program.

The genesis for much of these discussions is Fordham's decision to begin offering merit-based athletics scholarships in the sport of football, which the league currently prohibits. The committee continued its discussions of Bucknell's and the league's potential response to Fordham's decision. The league plans to provide a formal response to Fordham by December 2010 that will address any changes to the league's current financial aid policy for football.

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/Admin_Services/President/BOT/Spring10/BOTSummarySpringAnnual10.html

These words stick in my throat and freeze my keyboard, but...thank you, KenZ. Not a promise and not a commitment, but a "plan." That's as dead certain as I've been able to find.

What means

"Athletics Director John Hardt and I provided updates regarding the ongoing confidential discussions within the Patriot League about membership and financial aid policy in the sport of football."

Are these "updates" available to mere interlopers such as moi, and if so where can they be found? Also, how is it that the Patriot League Cone of Silence has sprung a leak at Bucknell?

[Ken_Z]

These words stick in my throat and freeze my keyboard, but...thank you, KenZ.

welcome to hell


What means

"Athletics Director John Hardt and I provided updates regarding the ongoing confidential discussions within the Patriot League about membership and financial aid policy in the sport of football."

Are these "updates" available to mere interlopers such as moi, and if so where can they be found? Also, how is it that the Patriot League Cone of Silence has sprung a leak at Bucknell?

not available, the reports have consistently referenced these as highly confidential discussions. we have one "insider" who says all this, scholarship and league expansion, would very likely have been decided and completed if not for the 2008 economic meltdown.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The genesis for much of these discussions is Fordham's decision to begin offering merit-based athletics scholarships in the sport of football, which the league currently prohibits. The committee continued its discussions of Bucknell's and the league's potential response to Fordham's decision. The league plans to provide a formal response to Fordham by December 2010 that will address any changes to the league's current financial aid policy for football.

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/Admin_Services/President/BOT/Spring10/BOTSummarySpringAnnual10.html


What means

"Athletics Director John Hardt and I provided updates regarding the ongoing confidential discussions within the Patriot League about membership and financial aid policy in the sport of football."

I want to emphasize that this could still signal a disconnect between the timetable of the PL presidents and Fordham. A "plan to provide a formal response by [December 2010]" isn't exactly a declaration of making a decision etched in a stone tablet from the PL presidents, while Fordham could be looking at this as "time's up" for membership in the league.

In the meantime, URI was shopping for a new football league but didn't even consider the PL because they haven't made a decision on football scholarships. And UNH and Maine might be shopping for a new league now, but the PL doesn't have scholarships (on the record, anyway) to offer.

[Model Citizen]

If the football team simply gave the same dollars in scholarships instead of need-determined grants, the numbers wouldn't be any different.

It depends. If they actually gave full rides to 63 people, fewer players would receive athletic money.

But that's not how they would do it. 85 people would still be receiving football dollars. They would just receive a little more than before.

[carney2]

If the football team simply gave the same dollars in scholarships instead of need-determined grants, the numbers wouldn't be any different.

Simple arithmetic, right?

WRONG!!!

In Lafayette's case, the Title IX can of worms that this would open would require huge bucks to close. I mean we are talking about A LOT of money here.

Frankly, I haven't given it a lot of thought, but I think that the NCAA should be testing the courts as to whether football should not create at least a partial dispensation from Tiltle IX requirements. I think they might have a case. Two points to consider:

1. The numbers required to play football are huge. There is no corresponding women's sport.

2. With only a few exceptions, football played at the scholarship level generates substantial revenues. These revenues help to offset the costs. To some extent, women's sports should be required to show similar revenue generation to get a 1oo%/scholarship for scholarshi/dollar for dollar Title IX accommodation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In Lafayette's case, the Title IX can of worms that this would open would require huge bucks to close. I mean we are talking about A LOT of money here.

I hate to keep using these threads to hawk (pun intended) blog postings I've already written, but a pretty good synopsis of the problem can be found here (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/07/complicated-puzzle-of-title-ix-and.html).

The 10,000 foot view is that LC and other schools would have to change the way they currently account for Title IX today, and it will cost them a whole lot of money.

Might be time to revisit this in a blog posting today...

[carney2]

I hate to keep using these threads to hawk (pun intended) blog postings I've already written, but a pretty good synopsis of the problem can be found here (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/07/complicated-puzzle-of-title-ix-and.html).

The 10,000 foot view is that LC and other schools would have to change the way they currently account for Title IX today, and it will cost them a whole lot of money.

Might be time to revisit this in a blog posting today...

A real nice article, LFN. I was impressed when it first came out and was equally impressed during a reread today. I recommend that Mpls read it BEFORE posting here again on this topic. In case he doesn't, here are the Cliff Notes:

1. Equivalencies are given as need based financial aid. As such it is aid that is theoretically available to any and all incoming students and is therefore not part of the Title IX calculation.

2. Switching to athletic grants in aid for football players means that the aid is available to only one subset of incoming students - male football players. Title IX now kicks in and equal aid must be offered to incoming female athletes.

3. As LFN points out in the referenced article a loophole in Title IX compliance allows a school to budget/allocate/whatever funds for female athletes, not spend the money, and still be considered in compliance. Sounds insane, doesn't it? Hey, I don't make the rules, I'm merely reporting the way it is. Lafayette, I believe Bucknell, and I assume some other Patriot League institutions have taken advantage of this stroll through the looking glass to balance their athletic and Title IX books.

4. In being forced to offer female athletic scholarships to offset the male football scholarships the school will now be forced to fund the activities.

Pretty simple. Pretty complicated. What will it cost? Who knows, but we are well into 7 figures. Let us, for instance, look at an absurd worst case scenario where a Patriot League school with an annual price tag of $50,000 is forced to offer 63 women's scholarships and is not in a position to increase enrollment by that amount. If they were forced to deny 63 full-pay female applicants to create the room, the price tag would be (63 X $50,000 =) $3,150,000 in lost revenues. That does not include the cost of coaching, transporting, insuring, clothing, etc. the 63 new female athletes. This is, as I said, an absurd example, but it highlights the fact that some of these Patriot League schools are facing financial hurdles that go well beyond Mpls's simplistic "All you have to do is switch equivalencies to scholarships. No additional cost."

[CrusaderBob]

Here's one school's ball park estimate of what it would cost.

In early 2008, the HC alumni magazine published the transcript from a forum on athletics with tthe following quote from Dick Regan, the HC athletic director, when the subject of FB scholarships was raised


We estimate it would cost us a million-two to a million-five a year. Because if you add football scholarships, you would, of course, have to balance that with an equal number of women’s athletics scholarships.

I have taken this to mean that $1.5 million is the cost to add FB scholarships and the offsetting scholarships for women.

[colorless raider]

Do you have a concrete source for the new president's scholarship support? I mean, it makes sense because the BOT supported it before. Also, shouldn't Colgate's AD be finished with his "sabbatical" about now? We're waiting for his magnum opus and to share in his learnings about how to crawl out of our PL sandbox and join the wider fray.

AD is for it and BOT is for it.

[Andy]

My crystal ball says that there will be few winners in this scholarship hassle.

NO SCHOLARSHIPS/ SAME OLD, SAME OLD = Fordham bolts and the Patriot League continues to spiral down. It may continue to exist, but it will be the FCS joke.

63 SCHOLARSHIPS IMMEDIATELY = Georgetown bolts while Bucknell, Holy Cross and Lafayette are left drifting with the tide.

EACH SCHOOL DOES ITS OWN THING = Fordham is saved (maybe), Georgetown is saved (temporarily) and Bucknell, Holy Cross and Lafayette are left drifting with the tide.

It is very difficult to see a positive outcome to all of this.

A few key points from a July '09 article available at ncaa.org:

Patriot League discusses football scholarships

Jul 21, 2009 8:40:20 AM

The NCAA News

Fordham has declared its intent to offer athletics scholarships for football student-athletes beginning in 2010, and the Patriot League now will grapple with whether to allow its member institutions to follow suit.

The league’s presidents will decide by December 31, 2010, what direction to take.

Executive Director Carolyn Femovich said several factors will influence the Patriot League’s decision, including economic conditions, Title IX requirements, and the history and tradition of the conference as one that does not offer football athletics aid.............

The behavior of the economy over the next 18 months likely will influence discussions among the league’s remaining full members. The conference executives hope to see an improvement in the financial climate by December 2010...........

Femovich imagined that, should the presidents move toward football scholarships, the implementation would be similar to the league’s move toward basketball scholarships: Simply declare the football aid permissible and allow each institution to make decisions on its own.

“That approach allows schools to determine the best approaches on their individual campuses,” Femovich said. “I think if we went that direction, some might work to get up to 58 or 60 equivalencies, and others might say we’ll do scholarships for key athletes and other individuals that might not have the need, but we’ll do a combination, a hybrid model.”///////////

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/NCAANewsArchive/2009/Division+I/patriot%2bleague%2bdiscusses%2bfootball%2bscholars hips_07_21_09_ncaa_news.html

[carney2]

Here's one school's ball park estimate of what it would cost.

In early 2008, the HC alumni magazine published the transcript from a forum on athletics with tthe following quote from Dick Regan, the HC athletic director, when the subject of FB scholarships was raised



I have taken this to mean that $1.5 million is the cost to add FB scholarships and the offsetting scholarships for women.

Sounds reasonable. As I recall, the amounts being bandied about for Lafayette as budgeted but not spent for women's athletics when this topic first came up were $750,000+. Add in the cost of the women's scholarships (which, in reality, is nowhere near the $3,150,000 that I used in my prior post because adjustments would be made) and a million and a half, give or take, does not sound out of line for the cost of going scholarship at some of these schools. That is real serious money when these big ticket schools are trying to steer through this economy, and the presidents are trying to balance their various constituencies, some of whom consider even $1.00 for something this "frivolous" as too much. As I have tried to point out over the past few days in this thread, this will not play well at some of the Patriot League institutions.

[DFW HOYA]

So, where we stand at post #201:

Fordham: FOR
Colgate: FOR
Lehigh: Leans For
Lafayette: Not comfortable with it, but will eventually follow Lehigh's lead
Bucknell: See Lafayette
Holy Cross: Opposed philosophically
Georgetown: Doesn't matter, can't afford either option

[MplsBison]

A real nice article, LFN. I was impressed when it first came out and was equally impressed during a reread today. I recommend that Mpls read it BEFORE posting here again on this topic. In case he doesn't, here are the Cliff Notes:

1. Equivalencies are given as need based financial aid. As such it is aid that is theoretically available to any and all incoming students and is therefore not part of the Title IX calculation.

2. Switching to athletic grants in aid for football players means that the aid is available to only one subset of incoming students - male football players. Title IX now kicks in and equal aid must be offered to incoming female athletes.

3. As LFN points out in the referenced article a loophole in Title IX compliance allows a school to budget/allocate/whatever funds for female athletes, not spend the money, and still be considered in compliance. Sounds insane, doesn't it? Hey, I don't make the rules, I'm merely reporting the way it is. Lafayette, I believe Bucknell, and I assume some other Patriot League institutions have taken advantage of this stroll through the looking glass to balance their athletic and Title IX books.

4. In being forced to offer female athletic scholarships to offset the male football scholarships the school will now be forced to fund the activities.

Pretty simple. Pretty complicated. What will it cost? Who knows, but we are well into 7 figures. Let us, for instance, look at an absurd worst case scenario where a Patriot League school with an annual price tag of $50,000 is forced to offer 63 women's scholarships and is not in a position to increase enrollment by that amount. If they were forced to deny 63 full-pay female applicants to create the room, the price tag would be (63 X $50,000 =) $3,150,000 in lost revenues. That does not include the cost of coaching, transporting, insuring, clothing, etc. the 63 new female athletes. This is, as I said, an absurd example, but it highlights the fact that some of these Patriot League schools are facing financial hurdles that go well beyond Mpls's simplistic "All you have to do is switch equivalencies to scholarships. No additional cost."

The PL's current situation wouldn't stand a chance in court. Someone needs to bring a lawsuit against the current practice in the PL athletic departments yesterday.


The aid that football players get, while the amount may be based on need, they would not be getting the the money from the same sources, and it may be in the form of loans rather than grants. They get the money because they're football players, period. What a joke.


Someone sue them into oblivion. Please.

[CFBfan]

The PL's current situation wouldn't stand a chance in court. Someone needs to bring a lawsuit against the current practice in the PL athletic departments yesterday.


The aid that football players get, while the amount may be based on need, they would not be getting the the money from the same sources, and it may be in the form of loans rather than grants. They get the money because they're football players, period. What a joke.


Someone sue them into oblivion. Please.

based on your collective posts, you seem to be just the guy for the job.

[RichH2]

DFW, Lehigh is a FORnot just leaning AD already announced that. He would not have been allowedto state LU's position w/o admin approval

Heck lets go for the record all we need is for Detroit flyer to hijack the thread again. C'mon guys we can do it!!!

[bison137]

The PL's current situation wouldn't stand a chance in court. Someone needs to bring a lawsuit against the current practice in the PL athletic departments yesterday.


The aid that football players get, while the amount may be based on need, they would not be getting the the money from the same sources, and it may be in the form of loans rather than grants. They get the money because they're football players, period. What a joke.


Someone sue them into oblivion. Please.


Congratulations. This is the stupidest post ever on this board about any subject.

There is probably nothing in America that is less likely to lead to a winning lawsuit. Nothing. If you suggested it to an attorney, he would laugh in your face.

[Sader87]

Can we still join the Big East without football scholarships??????

[Bogus Megapardus]

Someone sue them into oblivion. Please.




Somebody should sue you for stupidity. What are you, an Asperger’s victim or something?

Lafayette College is perhaps the most Title IX battle-tested Division I college in the nation. It was the first DI school to hire a female athletic director, Eve Atkinson. A funny thing happened to Ms. Atkinson, though. Putting aside notions of notions of transgender locker rooms and varsity AIDS-quilting, Ms. Atkinson went on a relentless campaign to rid the college of football forever. She allegedly started a fistfight with one of the deans over the issue and pretty much everyone wanted her out.

Ms. Atkinson was dismissed. Naturally, she sued. Over the last decade, every report, spreadsheet, memorandum, budget statement and scrap of paper imaginable having anything to do with Lafayette athletics and the institution’s Title IX compliance has been given to Ms. Atkinson's legal team and poured over by a bevy of activist lawyers, “experts” and legal commentators. This includes Erin Buzuvis (http://title-ix.blogspot.com/), a flame-throwing radical and hand-wringing zealot who has her dirty fingers into just about every gender equality jurno-piece wafting through the ivory towers these days.

The suit has been up and down through the federal courts for a decade. Ms. Atkinson has yet to win a single argument, much to the chagrin of Ms. Buzuvis and her minions, some of whom have made it their life’s work to uncover even the tiniest shred of Title IX non-compliance at Lafayette, which they have not done.

By contrast, MplsBison, NDSU has a history of notorious and quite public non-compliance with Title IX. It has been the subject of Justice Department orders to get things straight or face sanctions.

Speak of what you know, why don’t you?

[holycrossC]

No poster on this board, to my knowledge, has ever suggested that his own school would join the Patriot League - even if the alternative was abandoning football altogether. What's more, representatives of at least three Patriot League members here regularly decry their schools' PL membership and continue to hold out hope for any palatable alternative. The Patriot League easily is the most reviled conference in FCS football.

So the answer is no - there are PL expansion candidates.

The Patriot league will expand when the Ivy league expands!xlolx

[carney2]

Can we still join the Big East without football scholarships??????

YOU can do whatever you want. The good folks at Woo U will however use their hearts and minds to travel rational paths.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ms. Atkinson was dismissed. Naturally, she sued. Over the last decade, every report, spreadsheet, memorandum, budget statement and scrap of paper imaginable having anything to do with Lafayette athletics and the institution’s Title IX compliance has been given to Ms. Atkinson's legal team and poured over by a bevy of activist lawyers, “experts” and legal commentators. This includes Erin Buzuvis (http://title-ix.blogspot.com/), a flame-throwing radical and hand-wringing zealot who has her dirty fingers into just about every gender equality jurno-piece wafting through the ivory towers these days.

The suit has been up and down through the federal courts for a decade. Ms. Atkinson has yet to win a single argument, much to the chagrin of Ms. Buzuvis and her minions, some of whom have made it their life’s work to uncover even the tiniest shred of Title IX non-compliance at Lafayette, which they have not done.

Wow - I had no idea that Ms. Buzuvis was behind that blog or was involved in a Lafayette Title IX fight. Thanks for the background... In researching my piece today, and whenever I look up Title IX stuff I invariably get redirected to that blog. What's funny is she'll, say, take a GAO report with old data and twist it into supporting why Title IX was so great - but then, invariably, turn it around and claim more work needs to be done.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wow - I had no idea that Ms. Buzuvis was behind that blog or was involved in a Lafayette Title IX fight. Thanks for the background... In researching my piece today, and whenever I look up Title IX stuff I invariably get redirected to that blog. What's funny is she'll, say, take a GAO report with old data and twist it into supporting why Title IX was so great - but then, invariably, turn it around and claim more work needs to be done.

Buzuvis' fifteen minutes of fame camd when she got her skivvies in a bunch over Iowa's traditional pink painted visitor's locker room. About a thousand death threats later, Iowa canned her as a professor and she showed up at Western New England in Springfield, Mass. She chimes in after every negative ruling in the Atkinson case (which is still going on, BTW) claiming how and why Atkinson was a "victim."

Nothing Bezuvus says has any basis in reason. Keep in mind that Title IX "legal experts" are simply people who read one another's banal rantings in the Rutgers Journal of Gender Equality in Sports or some such thing. No one except law school libraries subscribes to these things and you can't get them on line. Bezuvus is the worst kind of intellectual fraud, IMHO and nothing written in that blog should be taken seriously. It's just a frustrated, hostile ultra-radical rehashing the same tired crap, over and over, pretending she's somehow "correct" if she says it enough times and people keep reading.

The new trend in Title IX is retaliation suits, not remedial action suits. That's where the money is. Bezuvus will tell you that any faculty member who is denied tenure, whose name appeared on a petition opposing scholarships years earlier, has a solid case under Title IX for retaliatory discharge and should get money damages for life. Ivory tower types soak this crap up and love to believe that it's true. And they go on reading each other's law journal rantings, but no one else does.

So I ask you, if a radical lesbian feminist law professor shrieks in the woods, but no one is there to hear it, did it make a noise?


EDIT - As always, the opinions expressed herein are exclusively my own . . . .

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I'm glad i don't truely have a horse in this race. My belief is as long as the school is solid academically then who cares. If Stanford can bump heads with Wazzu then Lehigh can associate with Maine, UNH, Umass or URI. The combo of great northeastern public and private institutions would strengthen the league. If the league thumbs its noise at those schools it would display a high level of ignorance imo.

[Fordham]

Buzuvis' fifteen minutes of fame camd when she got her skivvies in a bunch over Iowa's traditional pink painted visitor's locker room. About a thousand death threats later, Iowa canned her as a professor and she showed up at Western New England in Springfield, Mass. She chimes in after every negative ruling in the Atkinson case (which is still going on, BTW) claiming how and why Atkinson was a "victim."

Nothing Bezuvus says has any basis in reason. Keep in mind that Title IX "legal experts" are simply people who read one another's banal rantings in the Rutgers Journal of Gender Equality in Sports or some such thing. No one except law school libraries subscribes to these things and you can't get them on line. Bezuvus is the worst kind of intellectual fraud, IMHO and nothing written in that blog should be taken seriously. It's just a frustrated, hostile ultra-radical rehashing the same tired crap, over and over, pretending she's somehow "correct" if she says it enough times and people keep reading.

The new trend in Title IX is retaliation suits, not remedial action suits. That's where the money is. Bezuvus will tell you that any faculty member who is denied tenure, whose name appeared on a petition opposing scholarships years earlier, has a solid case under Title IX for retaliatory discharge and should get money damages for life. Ivory tower types soak this crap up and love to believe that it's true. And they go on reading each other's law journal rantings, but no one else does.

So I ask you, if a radical lesbian feminist law professor shrieks in the woods, but no one is there to hear it, did it make a noise?


EDIT - As always, the opinions expressed herein are exclusively my own . . . . Is having it legally defensible the same as morally defenisible to you? Perhaps that's too strong - maybe the better question is whether or not it's fine with you if LC lived up the letter of the Title IX law only but not the spirit. I have no idea whether or not any legal issues have been broached here and it sounds from these posts that they clearly have not. What seems clear is that allowing a school to budget/allocate/whatever funds for female athletes, not spend the money, and still be considered in compliance is not right.

At the end of the day I don't know that I really care. The point to me is that something is off when it comes to this Title IX stuff. There's some sort of good that I certainly see if it provides opportunities to female athletes that wouldn't otherwise be there yet there's something incredibly unfair of a system where one gender has a sport that has no equal or offset in terms of the metrics used to evaluate the whole thing.

More than anything, though, this is a very personal comment to you the poster versus one directed at LC. Imo you have taken every chance to get on your soapbox to rip on Fordham for taking this move to scholarships yet we're a school who not only has been living up to the letter of the law as it relates to Title IX but, perhaps more importantly, the spirit as well by treating equivalencies as athletic aid ... additionally we also had to deal with the underhanded way the new AI was implemented, where we were the only school to have our recruiting impacted in a neagtive way and then to have the promise of quickly moving to scholarships delayed indefinitely once the new AI was implemented. All of this has led us to take a school-centric but I would argue 'leadership' position on scholarships ... a position that clearly has stirred the pot but that's what leadership does (for good and bad).

It just begs the question - why are you so easy to excuse the tact LC has taken with Title IX yet you get on your high horse to rip on Fordham? We spend $3.5MMish on the program today. After the AI issue (which I believe everyone affiliated with a school not named "Fordham" does not realize what a big affront and motivator that was) should we really not just take dollars we are spending and convert them into scholarships without spending an additional dime on the program just as a sop to schools who took advantage of a Title IX "loophole"?

No offense meant to supporters from schools with Title IX issues here just simply a frustration at those who rip on Fordham as though the offense is our push for scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

No offense meant to supporters from schools with Title IX issues here just simply a frustration at those who rip on Fordham as though the offense is our push for scholarships.

Having two daughters who are competitive college/high school athletes, I absolutely support gender equality in athletics, just as Lafayette did when it hired the nation's very first female athletic director. Lafayette complies with both the letter and the spirit of Title IX. Please recognize, however, that far too many people seem to take their Title IX cues from Ms. Buzuvis, whose writings reflect neither the letter nor the spirit of the law. Rather, they are little more than angry, pointed rantings (like much of my own work here!) designed to tear apart the foundations of college athletics for both women and men.

The NCAA has introduced legislation which, if passed, will change the way grants in aid are "counted." Lafayette (and the other PL schools) doubtless will comply. That might force the issue of scholarships. It will also mean that a host of Division 3 schools (e.g., Mount Union?) will be deemed to be providing scholarship equivalencies, and in a markedly imbalanced fashion, but that's a story for another day. It would be an NCAA rule designed in part to further Title IX compliance, but not necessarily a Title IX mandate. The NCAA has a rational way of looking at Title IX. Ms. Buzuvis does not, no matter how loudly she decries the "immorality" of those who do not comply in lockstep with her obscure views.

As to Fordham? I don't think anyone has any problem whatsoever with its decision to offer full scholarships. I hope it is successful. I think the real question is, should Fordham be able to offer 63 football scholarships and remain in the Patriot League, regardless of the wishes of the other members? For that matter, should Fordham be able to bump up to a full 85 scholarships, regardless of the wishes of the NCAA? Would one decision be justified on grounds of morality, and the other not? Or is it all just an effort to do everything you can get away with to be more competitive than the next guy. Now that's something I can understand.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is having it legally defensible the same as morally defenisible to you? Perhaps that's too strong - maybe the better question is whether or not it's fine with you if LC lived up the letter of the Title IX law only but not the spirit. I have no idea whether or not any legal issues have been broached here and it sounds from these posts that they clearly have not. What seems clear is that allowing a school to budget/allocate/whatever funds for female athletes, not spend the money, and still be considered in compliance is not right.

At the end of the day I don't know that I really care. The point to me is that something is off when it comes to this Title IX stuff. There's some sort of good that I certainly see if it provides opportunities to female athletes that wouldn't otherwise be there yet there's something incredibly unfair of a system where one gender has a sport that has no equal or offset in terms of the metrics used to evaluate the whole thing.

That's a pretty good summation of the Title IX issue, incidentally. But I honestly think in terms of stuff like this you have to take even one more step back and look at the whole picture. Has LC, LU, Fordham or anyone systematically denied women the chance to be athletes and get scholarship opportunities? I find it really hard to make that case. If anything, LC has undergone athletics changes (e.g., Kirby Field house) that make a young woman's athletic experience better.

As many laws, Title IX was intended to try to rein in certain schools (e.g. schools like Michigan State, who might have in a pre-Title IX world scholarshipped hundreds of football players who sit on the pine for four years, but wouldn't have offered a scholarship, say, to a deserving women's basketball player) but instead ended up making other schools go through contortions to prove that they're "in compliance" (e.g. HBCU's like Grambling State or Southern, or small private schools like LC and, say, Furman).

The problem is the advocates for Title IX cannot be proud of the great gains they've achieved. Instead, they push for even more strict adherence to proportionality (which is ridiculous) and fight sports like competitive cheerleading that young girls and women not only choose in large numbers but already is a de facto sport by any measure except by technicality. You can't deny a sport status as a sport simply because your advocates don't like it. It's there where, to me, Title IX advocates lose the moral argument. Is it moral to push wrestling programs or FCS football programs to fold - which are, mind, educational missions and sports that students and alumni rally behind in many cases - while denying a popular sport that young ladies and women participate in actively simply because they don't like it?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

... additionally we also had to deal with the underhanded way the new AI was implemented, where we were the only school to have our recruiting impacted in a neagtive way and then to have the promise of quickly moving to scholarships delayed indefinitely once the new AI was implemented. All of this has led us to take a school-centric but I would argue 'leadership' position on scholarships ... a position that clearly has stirred the pot but that's what leadership does (for good and bad).

I know this wasn't directed at me, but:

1) I do not feel the AI reformation was handled "underhandedly". The leadership studied it for an entire year (as is their way) before implementing their changes.

2) The "promise" of quid-pro-quo football scholarships for AI reform may be true (I don't know for certain), but if true it undermines your argument that it was "underhanded". In addition, certainly the economic meltdown of 2008 was a perfectly just excuse for not going full scholarship right away? Many schools saw their endowments shrink by 30% or more and call for austerity measures - not a great time to announce a grand new spending program to allow the PL to compete with Delaware, Richmond and Villanova for recruits.

[crusader11]

So, where we stand at post #201:

Fordham: FOR
Colgate: FOR
Lehigh: Leans For
Lafayette: Not comfortable with it, but will eventually follow Lehigh's lead
Bucknell: See Lafayette
Holy Cross: Opposed philosophically
Georgetown: Doesn't matter, can't afford either option

As I understand, Holy Cross will do whatever the league does.

[carney2]

I'm back where I started on this, which is to say betting that the Patriot League does the following:

Approves scholarships under the "basketball plan," which is to say each school does its own thing.

Establishes some rules, more or less to say "We are the Patriot League, we are special." Rules would include: (1) a limit of 60 total, thereby somehow establishing a moral high ground over those leagues that grab the NCAA max of 63; (2) establishing a phase-in of 15 per year until the 60 max is reached; and (3) keeping some form of an AI.

Fordham will be forced to compromise itself back from the brink (I believe they currently have approved the max of 63) in order to remain in this little intellectual country club. I believe this will be intentional so that the League will be saying "We didn't just give in to your demands. You have to give us something in return."

Not everyone will jump on the band wagon. My guess:

Whole Hog (15/60 from the get-go): Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh

Reluctant Acceptance (something less, like 10/40): Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lafayette

The Wild Card (Probably nothing; may jump ship): Georgetown

Nothing new or earth shaking in these conclusions.

[Bogus Megapardus]

My final Title IX rant, and then I'll shut up.

As we sit here so enjoyably debating the politically correct path to the moral high road of gender equality, let's remind ourselves of exactly what is contained in Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (http://www.justice.gov/crt/cor/coord/titleixstat.php). Most remaining all-male colleges began to admit women when it was enacted, but I challenge anyone to find anything in its wording about proportionality or quotas in athletics. In fact, sponsors of the legislation (in particular Hawaii's Patsy Mink) went out of their way to deny that any such quotas were intended.

So how did we get to the point of arguing whether or not a 1.5% athletic scholarship disparity in male-to-female population ratios constitutes actionable Title IX discrimination? Yes, unchecked judicial activism is part of it, but the real reason is the regulations. Congress authorized the Department of Education to write regulations that would help the Justice Department to enforce Title IX. No one votes on these regulations. Left unchallenged, they gain a life of their own and people begin to associate the regulations with the law itself.

Guess who populates the Department of Education? People like Erin Buzuvis, but not quite as well educated. During the Carter era, DOE wonks ran roughshod over the law and created the quotas and the proportionality test. The regulations went far outside the text and intended reach of Title IX and were contrary even with the intent of the the law's sponsors. That's when colleges began to drop scholarships and entire sports programs wholesale. Again, some liberal in the DOE just made this stuff up. No one voted on it, and Congress didn't approve it.

I suppose we have no one but ourselves to blame because our respective institutions sat passively by and let it happen. So it all lost? No. Nothing about the law needs to be changed. It's a very good law. But the regulations, which remain in effect, are way beyond the scope of the law and ought to be nullified. How does that happen? Simple. The Secretary of Education can do it in his/her unfettered discretion with the simple stoke of a pen. Gone would be the quotas and the proportionality test, because they were never law to begin with.

All my humble opinion of course, and no one's else.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm back where I started on this, which is to say betting that the Patriot League does the following:

Approves scholarships under the "basketball plan," which is to say each school does its own thing.

Establishes some rules, more or less to say "We are the Patriot League, we are special." Rules would include: (1) a limit of 60 total, thereby somehow establishing a moral high ground over those leagues that grab the NCAA max of 63; (2) establishing a phase-in of 15 per year until the 60 max is reached; and (3) keeping some form of an AI.

Fordham will be forced to compromise itself back from the brink (I believe they currently have approved the max of 63) in order to remain in this little intellectual country club. I believe this will be intentional so that the League will be saying "We didn't just give in to your demands. You have to give us something in return."

I could see football scholarships under the "basketball plan", but by necessity I could see no rules for ramp-up (15 this year, 15 next year and so on). The reason for this is twofold: 1) Fordham's 2014 class is already scholarship, so any restrictions like that will "unfairly" punish them, and 2) offering no restrictions could allow the PL to say to a school like UNH or Maine that they could move their teams into PL football part and parcel as long as they adhere to the AI. This second point is crucial for the overall survival of the league, IMO.

In addition, there's that issue of the "grants-in-aid" that is already being used by PL schools. Do they count, or don't they? Functionally, they are scholarships and grant-in-aid in name only. It would be awful difficult to ramp it up and have teams reshuffle their existing grants all around.

As for "giving us something in return", I think scheduling four more years of OOC games with themselves and other members of the A-10 in basketball ought to do it.

[carney2]

I could see football scholarships under the "basketball plan", but by necessity I could see no rules for ramp-up (15 this year, 15 next year and so on). The reason for this is twofold: 1) Fordham's 2014 class is already scholarship, so any restrictions like that will "unfairly" punish them, and 2) offering no restrictions could allow the PL to say to a school like UNH or Maine that they could move their teams into PL football part and parcel as long as they adhere to the AI. This second point is crucial for the overall survival of the league, IMO.

In addition, there's that issue of the "grants-in-aid" that is already being used by PL schools. Do they count, or don't they? Functionally, they are scholarships and grant-in-aid in name only. It would be awful difficult to ramp it up and have teams reshuffle their existing grants all around.

As for "giving us something in return", I think scheduling four more years of OOC games with themselves and other members of the A-10 in basketball ought to do it.

As usual, LFN, you are way over my head.

As to the "ramp up" or "phase-in," I see no problem with somehow grandfathering Fordham into the new order with some sort of "what you have, you keep, but from here you must adhere to the 15/60 rule." The Rams would have something of a head start, but the advantage would be temporary and not all that great. In fact, depending on what they have in inventory, it might even hinder a year or two of recruiting as they adjust.

I truly do not understand the remainder of what you say. Please explain paragraphs 2 and 3 in language that even someone from "that College in Easton" can understand. Talk down, lad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

OK carney, let me put it another way. Right now every PL football player goes through the financial aid office. Some of those athletes have the loan portion of that aid converted to grants. The NCAA considers this "scholarships".

So how would a new yearly limit computed? 15 "traditional" scholarships, and up to 45 of the "old" scholarships? If so, how is this functionally different than going up to 60 (or 63) immediately?

And is this worth it? Does putting some form of limits on it keep other schools from considering the PL as a potential home? In ways, yearly limits of, say, 15 schollies would only serve to confuse when the practical upshot is that some schools would be at 63 schollies/equivalencies in 2011.

****

The other part I was saying was that I don't think Fordham will need to "sacrifice" for the cause by lowering scholarship numbers or some ramping-up strategy. Other things - like OOC basketball games - could be used instead as a "thank-you" for football scholarships.

[RichH2]

Ok, I think I understand what I dont really know but I have the distinct impression that I have lost contact with the possible impact of TitleIX . Could someone please explain the how the NCAA would deem the ratio of need grants currently given to one of the PL giving 15 full rides in 2012 together with the kids already on some portion of need grants. Assume that all 15 go to new recruits not kids already in school. But then what happens with a kid like LUM who gets a need grant for all but $4000 of his annual tuition. Is there a difference in the count if he stays at his present amt or what happens if LU gives him the $4000 over his need. Are both situations full schollies for NCAA?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Are both situations full schollies for NCAA?

Football is an equivalency sport at the FCS level; 63 scholarships can be spread among a maximum of 85 students. Any grant-in-aid based in whole or part on athletic ability is considered a scholarship by the NCAA. In football, no more than 85 students can have a part of their tuition covered based on athletic merit. So in your scenario, the student "counts" as one of the 85.

Here's everything you ever wanted to know (http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/GE2008.pdf) about how the NCAA looks at and administers Title IX compliance, in 300 pages or less. It's a good read.

The PL most definitely gives scholarship grants based on athletic ability. It simply does not give scholarship grants in excess of demonstrated need. Therefore, it's probably rare that a PL student is so poor that 100% of his/her tuition of covered. But each student that gets any such grant "counts" toward one of the 85.

[DFW HOYA]

Approves scholarships under the "basketball plan," which is to say each school does its own thing.

Establishes some rules, more or less to say "We are the Patriot League, we are special." Rules would include: (1) a limit of 60 total, thereby somehow establishing a moral high ground over those leagues that grab the NCAA max of 63; (2) establishing a phase-in of 15 per year until the 60 max is reached; and (3) keeping some form of an AI.


None of this sounds very encouraging back at the end of the line. If Georgetown can't recruit the players (much less compete) against these six other teams without scholarships, how do you expect them to do so when Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh et al. can pick off the first 150-200 prospects left in the PL wading pool?

[Bogus Megapardus]

None of this sounds very encouraging back at the end of the line. If Georgetown can't recruit the players (much less compete) against these six other teams without scholarships, how do you expect them to do so when Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh et al. can pick off the first 150-200 prospects left in the PL wading pool?

Women. Georgetown has, by far, the PL's most attractive women. So you have that going for you, at least.

[carney2]

None of this sounds very encouraging back at the end of the line. If Georgetown can't recruit the players (much less compete) against these six other teams without scholarships, how do you expect them to do so when Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh et al. can pick off the first 150-200 prospects left in the PL wading pool?

None of us has the answers to this, DFW, but we do know 2 things:

1. The Patriot League will not be ratcheting down to Georgetown's level.

2. If there's any ratcheting to be done, the Hoyas need to grab the tool and turn the handle.

I realize that they don't have the money, don't have the resources, not really their fault, etc., etc. You have made all the arguments - and quite well. Still, Georgetown has chosen the football group with which it wants to associate. If they are unwilling or unable to compete, that falls on their collective head and is no fault of the organization. Act, react, don't act - those decisions will be made inside the Beltway, not in Coopersburg, PA. Doing nothing or cannot do anything (it's all the same, really) is a decision to continue as bottom feeders. Contentment with that lot is a moral and ethical dilemma that really needs to be resolved.

[DFW HOYA]

Still, Georgetown has chosen the football group with which it wants to associate. If they are unwilling or unable to compete, that falls on their collective head and is no fault of the organization. Act, react, don't act - those decisions will be made inside the Beltway, not in Coopersburg, PA. Doing nothing or cannot do anything (it's all the same, really) is a decision to continue as bottom feeders. Contentment with that lot is a moral and ethical dilemma that really needs to be resolved.

Absent the money, and short of being drummed out of the league, I don't see where you can possibly expect short-term change of any kind. 60 scholarships is more than Georgetown spends on all scholarships combined across 13 different men's sports.

[Go...gate]

None of this sounds very encouraging back at the end of the line. If Georgetown can't recruit the players (much less compete) against these six other teams without scholarships, how do you expect them to do so when Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh et al. can pick off the first 150-200 prospects left in the PL wading pool?

Candidly, IMO, if that takes place, and everyone else reaches a consensus on scholarships (and I think, at the end of the day, HC will come along), it may be do or die for Georgetown.

[DFW HOYA]

Candidly, IMO, if that takes place, and everyone else reaches a consensus on scholarships (and I think, at the end of the day, HC will come along), it may be do or die for Georgetown.

Save the dire talk--Georgetown was playing football before the PL, and will do so after it. Besides, I'll take the University president (a former backup QB in his days on the Hilltop) at his word:

"We have a sense of what it takes to become more competitive. And you know, we don’t have quite the resource base of our peers, but we’re in a very good league for Georgetown to be in...we like the fact that we’re able to bring Ivy League schools into our schedule and I think we’re just going to stay at it, work hard at it and it try to ensure that we’re in a place we can be more competitive and be able to provide that better of an experience for all of our team."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

None of this sounds very encouraging back at the end of the line. If Georgetown can't recruit the players (much less compete) against these six other teams without scholarships, how do you expect them to do so when Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh et al. can pick off the first 150-200 prospects left in the PL wading pool?

You forget three things:

1) The wading pool will increase significantly with scholarships.

2) Georgetown doesn't have a Title IX issue here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they can just "convert" the thirty need-based grants to full scholarships if they so desire. Yes, they might not be able to ramp all the way up to 63, but they should improve a whole lot.

3) Access to Capitol Hill is the best recruiting tool of all at this level, not necessarily a 60,000 seat stadium.

Cheer up, DFW. ;)

[DFW HOYA]

You forget three things:

1) The wading pool will increase significantly with scholarships.

2) Georgetown doesn't have a Title IX issue here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they can just "convert" the thirty need-based grants to full scholarships if they so desire. Yes, they might not be able to ramp all the way up to 63, but they should improve a whole lot.

3) Access to Capitol Hill is the best recruiting tool of all at this level, not necessarily a 60,000 seat stadium.


Thirty?? You're a very generous fan! (I'd say it's somewhat less if GU's overall budget is half that of Bucknell, who are definitely not at 60.)

My only comment is that the wading pool doesn't materially increase or decrease with scholarships--it's the same AI-scrubbed group that is either going to choose the PL or the Ivies.

[carney2]

Save the dire talk--Georgetown was playing football before the PL, and will do so after it.

Jeez, DFW, you have a way with words. Unfortunately, these words give me the undeniable image of a cockroach that isn't much, but survives everything. I'm with LFN, that Capitol Hill thing is big, as is the national reputation and Roman Catholic ties. When Georgetown joined this League they were the sleeping giant that would ultimately live at the top of the Patriot League beanstalk. There's got to be a way of prodding that giant into motion. Money? Nope, it hasn't materialized so far and probably won't. New stadium? Put this product in the Rose Bowl and it would still be bad. It comes down to people and attitudes. People? How about the new AD, Reed? The first words out of his mouth were about a new basketball practice facility. I'm sure that football is on his radar screen, but first impressions are that it is, perhaps, not a priority. At the coaching level, Kelly has had his shot and things are still in turmoil. Losing begets losing and someone has to grab these kids and convince them that they are better than what preceded them. Somebody in the administration has to give more than lip service to this program. There needs to be action. Until then, the President's/backup QB's words that you quote ring very hollow

[DetroitFlyer]

Georgetown really should join the PFL. Forget about that poor MAAC experience, the PFL is a much different and better animal. Once we obtain our automatic bid to the FCS playoffs, it would make even more sense for Georgetown to join the PFL. Heck in the PFL, Georgetown could probably finish middle of the pack most seasons instead of being an 0-fer, PL bottom dweller....

[Bogus Megapardus]

Swiftian proposal for G'Town stadium woes:


http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3029/gprep.jpg


It's just a few miles up the road and the players will have no difficulty determining which is the home locker room. The Little Hoyas even have plenty of parking right next to the field.

[Model Citizen]

I can see Detroit Flyer writing the press release for Georgetown's jump to the PFL.

Talking points include reaffirming commitment to non-scholarship football...more national exposure...affiliation with Catholic schools USD, Dayton, and Detroit Mercy . Yes, I have no doubt Detroit Flyer has the influence to win over UDM as well.

[Fordham]

None of this sounds very encouraging back at the end of the line. If Georgetown can't recruit the players (much less compete) against these six other teams without scholarships, how do you expect them to do so when Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh et al. can pick off the first 150-200 prospects left in the PL wading pool? In the Fordham board you noted that since 2006, Georgetown has gone 1 - 22 against the non-scholarship PL schools (nod to Ken_Z). Why is it such a big deal if you go 0 - 23 because the rest of the league went scholarship?

I understand that personally it must be frustrating to such a passionatte supporter and then see the results of the past few years and now the likelihood of things getting worse rather than better. However, your school has not waivered, for good and bad, in its level of support for the program in all of this time. Why should we ever think that losing "every game" instead of "every game but one" is going to be the death knell of the program?

PS - interesting that Gtown has twice the number of wins against scholarship schools (Howard and first-year scholarship SB) during the time frame. Means nothing imo but still interesting.

[Fordham]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but:

1) I do not feel the AI reformation was handled "underhandedly". The leadership studied it for an entire year (as is their way) before implementing their changes.

2) The "promise" of quid-pro-quo football scholarships for AI reform may be true (I don't know for certain), but if true it undermines your argument that it was "underhanded". In addition, certainly the economic meltdown of 2008 was a perfectly just excuse for not going full scholarship right away? Many schools saw their endowments shrink by 30% or more and call for austerity measures - not a great time to announce a grand new spending program to allow the PL to compete with Delaware, Richmond and Villanova for recruits.The underhanded part is simply related to #2. The guys I've spoken with at Fordham are adamant that there was a promise that swallowing hard on the AI would be followed quickly by a move on scholarships. The move to a league-wide AI impacted Fordham far more than any other school but it would have been acceptable had the promise to move on scholarships been met. When the league went to delay-mode instead of moving to implement, it created a lot of resentment. Whether it was underhanded or just a confluence of events (or simply very poor communication) that led the PL to back off of the move to scholarships likely depends on which side of the decision you're viewing it from imo..

PS - I've been told we're around 58, equivalencies-to-scholarships-wise, and that we're not going to spend more on the program so I'm not sure where the 63 number is coming from. Not saying it's not true just that I haven't heard it anywhere or had it confirmed but the comments I have heard were clear that we're not going to spend a dime more to go scholarship.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Interesting factoid: As we all know, our always-lost-in-the-discussion fellow league member American University does not sponsor football. I think I mentioned not long ago that Reeves Field might make a good venue and then DFW Hoya pointed out that AU was adding seats to the venue under a current expansion plan. Well, it appears that the donor of Reeves field, Mrs. John Reeves, originally made her contribution specifically for the purpose of resurrecting football at AU (http://www.theeagleonline.com/news/story/schools-with-few-males-use-football-for-recruitment/).

[MplsBison]

My final Title IX rant, and then I'll shut up.

As we sit here so enjoyably debating the politically correct path to the moral high road of gender equality, let's remind ourselves of exactly what is contained in Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (http://www.justice.gov/crt/cor/coord/titleixstat.php). Most remaining all-male colleges began to admit women when it was enacted, but I challenge anyone to find anything in its wording about proportionality or quotas in athletics. In fact, sponsors of the legislation (in particular Hawaii's Patsy Mink) went out of their way to deny that any such quotas were intended.

So how did we get to the point of arguing whether or not a 1.5% athletic scholarship disparity in male-to-female population ratios constitutes actionable Title IX discrimination? Yes, unchecked judicial activism is part of it, but the real reason is the regulations. Congress authorized the Department of Education to write regulations that would help the Justice Department to enforce Title IX. No one votes on these regulations. Left unchallenged, they gain a life of their own and people begin to associate the regulations with the law itself.

Guess who populates the Department of Education? People like Erin Buzuvis, but not quite as well educated. During the Carter era, DOE wonks ran roughshod over the law and created the quotas and the proportionality test. The regulations went far outside the text and intended reach of Title IX and were contrary even with the intent of the the law's sponsors. That's when colleges began to drop scholarships and entire sports programs wholesale. Again, some liberal in the DOE just made this stuff up. No one voted on it, and Congress didn't approve it.

I suppose we have no one but ourselves to blame because our respective institutions sat passively by and let it happen. So it all lost? No. Nothing about the law needs to be changed. It's a very good law. But the regulations, which remain in effect, are way beyond the scope of the law and ought to be nullified. How does that happen? Simple. The Secretary of Education can do it in his/her unfettered discretion with the simple stoke of a pen. Gone would be the quotas and the proportionality test, because they were never law to begin with.

All my humble opinion of course, and no one's else.

Title IX in a sentence:


No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance

Does Lafayette College receive Federal financial assistance?

Yes! Through the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA), any student enrolled at Lafayette College may apply to receive Federal Student Aid (such as Pell Grants). Therefore, Lafayette College directly receives federal taxpayer money as their enrolled students partially pay their tuition bills with that money.


Does Lafayette College's official, school-sponsored athletics department exclude from participation/deny benefits to/discriminate against female athletes enrolled in the college?

Not a clear cut answer...but consider the numbers compiled by the US DOE's Office of Postsecondary Education for Jul 1st 2008 - June 30 2009:

Amount of athletic aid given: $4,322,305 male and $2,540,882 female

Number of non-duplicated participants: 311 male and 202 female

Aid per non-duplicated participant: $13898.09 male and $12578.62


So you're telling me that LC's athletic department's hands were forced into awarding $1319.47 more aid per male athlete because most of the sports award aid on a need basis and that the female athletes recruited to Lafayette are just that less needy?? xcoffeex



Sue them into oblivion.