PL Coaching Change

[DFW HOYA]

Bucknell HC Tim Landis to join staff at San Jose State.
http://www.bucknellbison.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/122409aaa.html

Georgetown OC Jim Miceli to become asst. head coach at Akron.
http://www.gozips.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10800&ATCLID=204861599

[HoyaMetanoia]

The Miceli hire is beyond bizarre, but one that had been known on campus for a little while. I guess because it's Akron, it'll fly under the radar, but if a BCS school hired a coach with such impressive failures over the past 3 years, their fanbase would be livid.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Miceli hire is beyond bizarre, but one that had been known on campus for a little while. I guess because it's Akron, it'll fly under the radar, but if a BCS school hired a coach with such impressive failures over the past 3 years, their fanbase would be livid.

Any theories?

[Sader87]

My hunch is that both these guys were told they were out a while ago and both they and their schools were able to "save face" by finding these positions in the mean time.

A better question.... who would take either one of these jobs?

[breezy]

If I recall correctly, Landis is a west coast guy, so it looks like going home.

[ngineer]

If I recall correctly, Landis is a west coast guy, so it looks like going home.

True.. He had been a St. Mary's in California when they dropped football. While he made Bucknell competitive, he could not make them winners. I would think the Bison may dip into D-II or D-III for an existing HC looking to move up...Troxell at F& M??

[ngineer]

Man, Micelli has certainly been the epitome of a college coach vagabound. Every few years a new place. Tough way to raise a family.xsmhx

[Sader87]

If I recall correctly, Landis is a west coast guy, so it looks like going home.

Landis is an East Coast native...born in Pa, went to the Hun School, Randolph-Macon....he was basically "fired" but Bucknell wants to sell this differently.

[Fordham]

My hunch is that both these guys were told they were out a while ago and both they and their schools were able to "save face" by finding these positions in the mean time. I tend to agree but no inside information on that. It's nice that they were willing to do that but it could really put them back on recruiting given that these are valuable weeks that a new coach could have been using if they had announced it immediately following the season.


A better question.... who would take either one of these jobs? Great question, although there's so much competition out there that I'm sure they'll be flooded with resumes.

[CFBfan]

My hunch is that both these guys were told they were out a while ago and both they and their schools were able to "save face" by finding these positions in the mean time.

A better question.... who would take either one of these jobs?

at least Bucnell is looking for a HC. GU has to find an OC willing to come on board with a HC who's record is pathetic and likely on his way out in the near future which typicaly means the whole staff will be fired.....that's a tough hire, no??

[ngineer]

My hunch is that both these guys were told they were out a while ago and both they and their schools were able to "save face" by finding these positions in the mean time.

A better question.... who would take either one of these jobs?

I would question that, as to Landis. This is a poor time to announce any kind of termination, smack dab in the middle of recruiting. If this were a decision made 'for some time', it would have been announced the day after the season to get a jump on getting a new coach who could start recruiting. It appears from the release that Landis has had a past good relationship with the San Jose St. Coach at other schools, so I would tend to think that was the motivating factor. Not that Landis or the school's were thinking of a change if things didn't change for the Bison, but there hasn't seemed to be any sense of urgency at Bucknell about 'upgrading' the program. Status quo of 4-5 wins a season, still be in most games in the fourth quarter. The pressure to win in football in Lewisburg is not the same as Bethlehem, Easton or Hamilton.

[bison137]

he was basically "fired" but Bucknell wants to sell this differently.


Any evidence of this? I have not been able to find any.

If he was "fired", BU would have started a coaching search 5 weeks ago, and I haven't been able to find any evidence of that either.

I think he started looking for a new job after the season ended, knowing his contract would not be renewed after next year.

[ngineer]

Any evidence of this? I have not been able to find any.

If he was "fired", BU would have started a coaching search 5 weeks ago, and I haven't been able to find any evidence of that either.

I think he started looking for a new job after the season ended, knowing his contract would not be renewed after next year.

That sounds more plausible. Very unlikely he was going to turn the Bison into a big winner next year. I imagine next year, by late October, Coen at Lehigh will be doing the same thing if Lehigh has more than two losses at that point.

[DFW HOYA]

Unless it's Joe Paterno, almost every Division I coach is going to leave on someone else's terms if they don't do it themselves first. If Tim Landis saw an opportunity now that might not be made available to a coach that is dismissed a year later, he's going to act in his best interests. If he doesn't, he'll be out of coaching altogether at some point.

As for Jim Miceli, the ability to make the jump from the nation's 117th ranked offense to assistant head coach at Akron is surprising, but it sounds like a good opportunity for him.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That sounds more plausible. Very unlikely he was going to turn the Bison into a big winner next year. I imagine next year, by late October, Coen at Lehigh will be doing the same thing if Lehigh has more than two losses at that point.

Wasn't Coen's contract up after this year? If that was the case, what were the terms that he was brought back on? I'm assuming it was a one year deal?

I'm still waiting for Lehigh's OC name to be mentioned. Is he really coming back?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'll say it since nobody else has: Think Landis would have been so quick to leave had he had scholarships to play with?

[ngineer]

I'll say it since nobody else has: Think Landis would have been so quick to leave had he had scholarships to play with?

It might have depended on how the scholarships were being divied up, i.e. if a 'ceiling' were established and everyone left to divy out as many as they wanted up to the ceiling. I doubt BU would jump in with both feet and start off with 40-60 scholarships, and if others like Colgate and Lehigh did, Bucknell would have been further behind in the recruiting game. If he didn't see any more support coming from the administration down the road to improve BU's standing with its main competitors, then I think he still leaves.

[CrusaderBob]

I'll say it since nobody else has: Think Landis would have been so quick to leave had he had scholarships to play with?

Personally, I think it is indicative of nothing vis-a-vis scholarships but, if Bucknell thought Landis with scholarships would be so much better than Landis without, don't you think they would have extended his contract?

I think you could spin it in favor of scholarships just as easily.

Bucknell sees FB scholarships coming. What better way to get a fresh start on scholarship football than to start with a new head coach, so let's keep Landis around to finish out his contract then make the switch to a new head coach and staff recruiting with scholarships. xnodx

It's all guessing, but what seems most likely is Landis didn't want to hang around as a lame duck coach.

[ngineer]

Wasn't Coen's contract up after this year? If that was the case, what were the terms that he was brought back on? I'm assuming it was a one year deal?

I'm still waiting for Lehigh's OC name to be mentioned. Is he really coming back?

There has been no official announcement about Coen's 'extension', though one has to assume one has been given due to the passage of time and the staff being out on the recruiting trail. I would be surprised if he got more than a year's extension. No changes on the sports website regarding and staff changes...

[DFW HOYA]

I'll say it since nobody else has: Think Landis would have been so quick to leave had he had scholarships to play with?

If he was going to finish 3-8 in his eighth year, probably. As long as there is upward mobility, coaches are going to look at places like Akron and San Jose State as a step up from the PL and I-AA.

[Wildcat80]

Both need a total reemphasis from the top on down. No way they should not be competitive. GU should do better than nova if they get schollies.xnodx

[HoyaMetanoia]

Both need a total reemphasis from the top on down. No way they should not be competitive. GU should do better than nova if they get schollies.xnodx

You mean if we somehow had 63 fully funded scholarships? Doubt it. There are a lot of problems at Georgetown, and they won't be solved simply by having a full complement of scholarships. Take the facilities for example: Georgetown has a half finished stadium that seats less than 3,000 people, a varsity weight room that isn't even a room but a curtained off portion of the general student weight room, and a locker room that is worse than almost any local high school.

[DFW HOYA]

Both need a total reemphasis from the top on down. No way they should not be competitive. GU should do better than nova if they get schollies.xnodx

It's not impossible, but the numbers are definitely against Georgetown in specific and PL schools in general. This is how it was explained to me and corrections are welcome.

There are roughly 300,000 high school seniors playing football. Not all seniors go on to college, some go to junior college, some don't want to play football anymore, and some aren't Division I caliber. Let's assume that on any given team, 10% of the seniors are recruitable, which reduces the pool of D-I eligible prospects to 30,000.

Put aside the 2,500 scholarships in a season at the Div. I-A level (21.25 per year x 118 teams), and that leaves Villanova, Montana, W&M, etc. with a net of 27,500 prospects for a scholarship. But the PL and Ivy schools are basically recruiting at the top 15% of the segment, which means 85% of this pool is off limits because of the academic index--its pool is now reduced to just 4,000 kids.

From that 4,000, assume 20 percent are good enough to earn a scholarship and take one instead of an Ivy/PL inquiry (and include the Pioneer for the purposes of argument). That leaves 3,200 prospects for 25 schools. Subtract another 200 as recruited walk-ons at I-A and I-AA scholarship schools, and it's 3,000.

Roughly 750 of the 3,000 are going to get signed. Are there enough impact players among the pool of 3,000 versus the pool of 27,500 available to scholarship teams vs. the original 30,000 (where almost all the top recruits have already gone I-A)?

I'm not saying PL schools can't compete with a pool of just 3,000 prospects, but the odds of building a consistent national program get progressively tougher, facilities notwithstanding.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm not saying PL schools can't compete with a pool of just 3,000 prospects, but the odds of building a consistent national program get progressively tougher, facilities notwithstanding.

Should we bother?

[Fordham]

It's not impossible, but the numbers are definitely against Georgetown in specific and PL schools in general. This is how it was explained to me and corrections are welcome.

There are roughly 300,000 high school seniors playing football. Not all seniors go on to college, some go to junior college, some don't want to play football anymore, and some aren't Division I caliber. Let's assume that on any given team, 10% of the seniors are recruitable, which reduces the pool of D-I eligible prospects to 30,000.

Put aside the 2,500 scholarships in a season at the Div. I-A level (21.25 per year x 118 teams), and that leaves Villanova, Montana, W&M, etc. with a net of 27,500 prospects for a scholarship. But the PL and Ivy schools are basically recruiting at the top 15% of the segment, which means 85% of this pool is off limits because of the academic index--its pool is now reduced to just 4,000 kids.

From that 4,000, assume 20 percent are good enough to earn a scholarship and take one instead of an Ivy/PL inquiry (and include the Pioneer for the purposes of argument). That leaves 3,200 prospects for 25 schools. Subtract another 200 as recruited walk-ons at I-A and I-AA scholarship schools, and it's 3,000.

Roughly 750 of the 3,000 are going to get signed. Are there enough impact players among the pool of 3,000 versus the pool of 27,500 available to scholarship teams vs. the original 30,000 (where almost all the top recruits have already gone I-A)?

I'm not saying PL schools can't compete with a pool of just 3,000 prospects, but the odds of building a consistent national program get progressively tougher, facilities notwithstanding.

Bingo. It's the effect of the various, self-imposed filters that reduces our potential pool of recruits so much. In some cases that might be ok (e.g. - AI) but in its totality it's really a daunting task for a PL coach.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's not impossible, but the numbers are definitely against Georgetown in specific and PL schools in general. This is how it was explained to me and corrections are welcome.

There are roughly 300,000 high school seniors playing football. Not all seniors go on to college, some go to junior college, some don't want to play football anymore, and some aren't Division I caliber. Let's assume that on any given team, 10% of the seniors are recruitable, which reduces the pool of D-I eligible prospects to 30,000.

Put aside the 2,500 scholarships in a season at the Div. I-A level (21.25 per year x 118 teams), and that leaves Villanova, Montana, W&M, etc. with a net of 27,500 prospects for a scholarship. But the PL and Ivy schools are basically recruiting at the top 15% of the segment, which means 85% of this pool is off limits because of the academic index--its pool is now reduced to just 4,000 kids.

From that 4,000, assume 20 percent are good enough to earn a scholarship and take one instead of an Ivy/PL inquiry (and include the Pioneer for the purposes of argument). That leaves 3,200 prospects for 25 schools. Subtract another 200 as recruited walk-ons at I-A and I-AA scholarship schools, and it's 3,000.

Roughly 750 of the 3,000 are going to get signed. Are there enough impact players among the pool of 3,000 versus the pool of 27,500 available to scholarship teams vs. the original 30,000 (where almost all the top recruits have already gone I-A)?

I'm not saying PL schools can't compete with a pool of just 3,000 prospects, but the odds of building a consistent national program get progressively tougher, facilities notwithstanding.

Though you may not realize it, that means you're saying that the last two Division I national champions have won their championships by severely compromising their academic qualifications to do so - that if they lived in a world of an academic index, they wouldn't have a chance.

I do appreciate that it's not as easy to recruit the top 15% kids academically, but I also believe that you can win national championships with them. I also know it's easier to get one of those 3,000 kids with some full scholarships to offer.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. I don't know if football scholarships and an AI will result in a national champion, but I've got to believe that they would allow a Villanova or Richmond to exist in the PL without changing too much - and that means that their national championship teams would largely fit in the AI structure that the PL has today.

[Wildcat80]

It's not impossible, but the numbers are definitely against Georgetown in specific and PL schools in general. This is how it was explained to me and corrections are welcome.

There are roughly 300,000 high school seniors playing football. Not all seniors go on to college, some go to junior college, some don't want to play football anymore, and some aren't Division I caliber. Let's assume that on any given team, 10% of the seniors are recruitable, which reduces the pool of D-I eligible prospects to 30,000.

Put aside the 2,500 scholarships in a season at the Div. I-A level (21.25 per year x 118 teams), and that leaves Villanova, Montana, W&M, etc. with a net of 27,500 prospects for a scholarship. But the PL and Ivy schools are basically recruiting at the top 15% of the segment, which means 85% of this pool is off limits because of the academic index--its pool is now reduced to just 4,000 kids.

From that 4,000, assume 20 percent are good enough to earn a scholarship and take one instead of an Ivy/PL inquiry (and include the Pioneer for the purposes of argument). That leaves 3,200 prospects for 25 schools. Subtract another 200 as recruited walk-ons at I-A and I-AA scholarship schools, and it's 3,000.

Roughly 750 of the 3,000 are going to get signed. Are there enough impact players among the pool of 3,000 versus the pool of 27,500 available to scholarship teams vs. the original 30,000 (where almost all the top recruits have already gone I-A)?

I'm not saying PL schools can't compete with a pool of just 3,000 prospects, but the odds of building a consistent national program get progressively tougher, facilities notwithstanding.

Oh baby...if you are part of the GT leadership.....I now totally understand WHY you lose!!! Leadership starts at the top!! xwhistlex

[DFW HOYA]

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. I don't know if football scholarships and an AI will result in a national champion, but I've got to believe that they would allow a Villanova or Richmond to exist in the PL without changing too much - and that means that their national championship teams would largely fit in the AI structure that the PL has today.

Assuming one trusts its fellow schools, what does the AI offer other than an arbitrary range of admits by SAT? If Villanova takes five kids below an 1100 instead of one, are they really compromising academic standards, given that other VU sports may have the same leeway? Lehigh doesn't hard-band its admissions numbers for students at large (e.g., "Sorry, but we've already accepted 50 kids with your SAT/GPA combination and can't take 51") yet accepts it for football.

Of course, a Matt Szczur wouldn't have even been allowed to play on a PL team, even if he had a 4.0 GPA in high school. Why? He has a half-scholarship in baseball, and the PL won't allow partial grants from other sports to even play football.


Oh baby...if you are part of the GT leadership.....I now totally understand WHY you lose!!! Leadership starts at the top!!

I do not work for GU, but the point still holds: if you limit your recruiting to 15% of the available pool, you limit your ability to compete against schools that have no such limitation. Do you disagree?

[Pards Rule]

True.. He had been a St. Mary's in California when they dropped football. While he made Bucknell competitive, he could not make them winners. I would think the Bison may dip into D-II or D-III for an existing HC looking to move up...Troxell at F& M??

I cannot see Troxell doing that...It would be quite a risky move for him and I think he would want to wait for something a little more feasible. I dont know how long Tavani will stay at LC but he's not going anywhere soon so if Troxell wants to go to I-AA he should make his move carefully.

[Pard94]

I cannot see Troxell doing that...It would be quite a risky move for him and I think he would want to wait for something a little more feasible. I dont know how long Tavani will stay at LC but he's not going anywhere soon so if Troxell wants to go to I-AA he should make his move carefully.

It's an interesting question. I know Trox certainly has higher aspirations than DIII. Bucknell is close enough to home to make it compelling. That being said...I don't know how feasable it would be to move from one PL team to another down the line so if he were to take such a position (assuming it is offered) he'd be all but conceding his chance to coach at Lafayette. And as was already pointed out...who knows how committed Bucknell is to their football program. Risky indeed. if I were advising him I'd tell him to stick it out for a couple of more years at F&M. Keep up the good work and with a solid five years as the HC I think his resume would be very compelling to a solid I-AA program. As for Tavani and his long term plans vis a vis John Troxell...the two are very good friends. Tavani recruited Trox to Lafayette as a player and later as a coach. I think the communication would be pretty open between them.

[bison137]

While he made Bucknell competitive, he could not make them winners.


Bucknell was a consistent winner under Landis' predecessor, Tom Gadd. Gadd was there for seven years and had seven winning seasons (48-28 overall) - despite having inherited a weak program.

Tragically he developed terminal brain cancer, or Bucknell probably would have been a consistent winner over the past seven years as well.

What Landis did was make Bucknell a lot less competitive.

[Franks Tanks]

Bucknell was a consistent winner under Landis' predecessor, Tom Gadd. Gadd was there for seven years and had seven winning seasons (48-28 overall) - despite having inherited a weak program.

Tragically he developed terminal brain cancer, or Bucknell probably would have been a consistent winner over the past seven years as well.

What Landis did was make Bucknell a lot less competitive.

When I was being recruited, after the 1997 FB season, Bucknell was certainly among the best, if not the best destination for PL recruits. This was before Lehigh took off in 1998. Colgate was good, but just two years away from a terrible season, and not yet the Colgate we are now accustomed to. Lafayette had just begun a 7 or so year period of medicore teams.

Buckell was coming off a recent PL championship and a 10-1 season. Many thought Bucknell was about to take over the PL at that time. It didnt quite happen, although Bucknell was still good and competitive through the Gadd era.

It seems like a long time ago, but Bucknell was once among the best in the PL, and a very desirable destination for recruits. It can certainlty happen again with a good coach and a bit of positive momentum.

[The Historian]

It is really hard to understand why Bucknell, which seems to win the PL all sports trophy every year, has only won the PL football title once. There seems to be a strong commitment to all sports, even for a non league sport like wrestling.

[ngineer]

I cannot see Troxell doing that...It would be quite a risky move for him and I think he would want to wait for something a little more feasible. I dont know how long Tavani will stay at LC but he's not going anywhere soon so if Troxell wants to go to I-AA he should make his move carefully.

Unless LC would all of a sudden go in the tank, which I don't forsee, Frank will be there as long as he wants..and he's only in his late 50's, so he could be there another 10 years. Bucknell has been so mediocre for so long, taking that program and becoming a consistent winner, like Lembo did at Elon, could write his ticket up the ladder.

[ngineer]

Bucknell was a consistent winner under Landis' predecessor, Tom Gadd. Gadd was there for seven years and had seven winning seasons (48-28 overall) - despite having inherited a weak program.

Tragically he developed terminal brain cancer, or Bucknell probably would have been a consistent winner over the past seven years as well.

What Landis did was make Bucknell a lot less competitive.

I know Gadd did a terrific job at BU, but after he stepped down before his death, the Bison really went down hill, and it seemed that Landis got them back to being 'competitive' in the sense that they rarely got blown out, played hard, and were good enough hang around and be 'trouble' for the team that wasn't ready. Typically Bucknell has knocked off the PL champ a few times over the years, I believe with Fordham and Colgate?

[bison137]

I know Gadd did a terrific job at BU, but after he stepped down before his death, the Bison really went down hill, and it seemed that Landis got them back to being 'competitive' in the sense that they rarely got blown out, played hard, and were good enough hang around and be 'trouble' for the team that wasn't ready. Typically Bucknell has knocked off the PL champ a few times over the years, I believe with Fordham and Colgate?



Gadd unfortunately had to step down at the end of July 2002 as his brain cancer got worse, and the job was turned over to assistant Dave Kotulski. I think the team was in a state of shock and once they lost a bunch of close early games (two in OT), Kotulski couldn't hold it together and they collapsed late in the season to end at 2-9.

Landis' first two years were respectable (13-10 overall, 8-5 in PL) - mostly due to Gadd's recruits - but after that he was 19-36 (8-22 in the PL). During his tenure, the team was reasonably competitive with Colgate, HC, Fordham, and Georgetown. However they were a totally unacceptable 0-14 vs LC and LU.

[colorless raider]

fyi, Coach Biddle got a new contract at Colgate. Whew! Go 'Gate!:)

[TheValleyRaider]

fyi, Coach Biddle got a new contract at Colgate. Whew! Go 'Gate!:)

Signed through 2013 (http://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2009/12/29/FB_1229092530.aspx) xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

So the coaching situation is...

Bucknell: Open
Georgetown: Kelly in 2010? No word to the contrary; full-time AD position still vacant
Holy Cross: Gilmore should be back in 2010
Fordham: Masella back in 2010
Lehigh: Coen back in 2010
Colgate: Biddle through 2013
Lafayette: Tavani through 2014

[CFBfan]

So the coaching situation is...

Bucknell: Open
Georgetown: Kelly in 2010? No word to the contrary; full-time AD position still vacant
Holy Cross: Gilmore should be back in 2010
Fordham: Masella back in 2010
Lehigh: Coen back in 2010
Colgate: Biddle through 2013
Lafayette: Tavani through 2014

so you would assume that LC, Colgate & FU are set "for a while", HC is stable for as long as Gilmore wants to stay there, LU is "season to season" on Coen and while BU and GU are both looking for Coaches, GU is in the worse position by far with no AD and a lame duck HC, yes?

[ngineer]

so you would assume that LC, Colgate & FU are set "for a while", HC is stable for as long as Gilmore wants to stay there, LU is "season to season" on Coen and while BU and GU are both looking for Coaches, GU is in the worse position by far with no AD and a lame duck HC, yes?

Sad, but true.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just a weird thought, and no idea if it's substantiated. But what about Jeff McInerney heading from CCSU to Bucknell? There would be a learning curve involving recruiting PL athletes, but he in effect is a triple-option coach and has done wonders in a limited scholarship school at CCSU.

[ngineer]

Just a weird thought, and no idea if it's substantiated. But what about Jeff McInerney heading from CCSU to Bucknell? There would be a learning curve involving recruiting PL athletes, but he in effect is a triple-option coach and has done wonders in a limited scholarship school at CCSU.

He would be a good hire, but I don't know if he would view that as a 'step up'. Same as if he were to come to Lehigh, with the only difference being his historical connection to the Lehigh Valley. At this point, unless the PL goes schollie, that's nothing more than a lateral move, although we might pay a little more; but not sure about that either.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just a weird thought, and no idea if it's substantiated. But what about Jeff McInerney heading from CCSU to Bucknell? There would be a learning curve involving recruiting PL athletes, but he in effect is a triple-option coach and has done wonders in a limited scholarship school at CCSU.

There are two reasons why some schools stick to the triple option exclusively. One of them clearly does not apply to Bucknell players; the other can be rectified by a few choice scholarships along the O line and at the skill positions. There's no way Bucknell remains wedded to the triple option if the PL goes scholarship. What choose a coach who would prove thus constrained?

[MDFAN]

Gerogia Tech runs the option...same reason?

[aceinthehole]

He would be a good hire, but I don't know if he would view that as a 'step up'. Same as if he were to come to Lehigh, with the only difference being his historical connection to the Lehigh Valley. At this point, unless the PL goes schollie, that's nothing more than a lateral move, although we might pay a little more; but not sure about that either.

Agreed.

CCSU lost Masella to Fordham because he was a true NYC guy and they had the AQ.

Since then, CCSU has increased schollys and has the AQ. Mac went to high school in CT and has local ties here, as well as to the Lehigh Valley.

He also older and had a long vagabond carrer as a lifelong assiatnt from USC, UNLV, and Oregon State, to D-II national Championship with Troy and I-AA NC with Georgia Southern. I think from a personal perspective he like being settled in Conn.

From what I know, he has no interst in leaving CCSU for any job, although I'd imagine he'd listen to offers as a top-assistant or HC at an FBS school, if there was interest in him.

[DFW HOYA]

Gerogia Tech runs the option...same reason?

Kevin Kelly came to Georgetown from Paul Johnson's staff at Navy and introduced the option in 2006, which he then abandoned for what could loosely be called a spread offense, or one fan called the "shotgun draw".

The Hoyas' offensive numbers were grim in 2009. Its starting QB threw for two TD's and nine INTs, while the running game accounted for three touchdowns in 11 games (by comparison, Colgate had 28 rushing TD's). Georgetown's rushing numbers dropped to the bottom of the I-AA stat chart: from 1,290 yards in 2007 to 1,041 in 2008 to just 624 in 2009. Six PL rushers had more yardage than the Hoyas had as a team.

A pressing concern into 2010 is experience. The team's top receiver, two of its three top rushers, punter, and place kicker are seniors, and there's no guarantee the Hoyas don't go with yet another new QB, a position where they have rotated through 14 different starters in eight years, three last season alone. Only one incumbent since 2001 has made it to a second season as the starter.

Those are not good numbers for a team which has lost 22 of its last 23 PL games.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There are two reasons why some schools stick to the triple option exclusively. One of them clearly does not apply to Bucknell players; the other can be rectified by a few choice scholarships along the O line and at the skill positions. There's no way Bucknell remains wedded to the triple option if the PL goes scholarship. What choose a coach who would prove thus constrained?

How important is it philosophically at Bucknell? I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that all their assistants over the years are "triple option guys". If they promote from within, they will still be a triple-option (basically) team, and if they go for, say Jerry "Run n' Shoot" Glanville the entire staff will most likely be cleaned out.

To this guy, this would make the most sense to bring another triple-option person in there, or at least promote from within. Then again, I'm not the best person to ask.

Glancing at the Bison Board, they seem to think that Dave Cohen might join his brother, Andrew Cohen (current Bison DC) in some way, though they think that Hofstra's "buyout" of the last year of his contract may mean that won't happen. A. C. has the advantage of having a connection to the Gadd years.

[CFBfan]

Kevin Kelly came to Georgetown from Paul Johnson's staff at Navy and introduced the option in 2006, which he then abandoned for what could loosely be called a spread offense, or one fan called the "shotgun draw".

The Hoyas' offensive numbers were grim in 2009. Its starting QB threw for two TD's and nine INTs, while the running game accounted for three touchdowns in 11 games (by comparison, Colgate had 28 rushing TD's). Georgetown's rushing numbers dropped to the bottom of the I-AA stat chart: from 1,290 yards in 2007 to 1,041 in 2008 to just 624 in 2009. Six PL rushers had more yardage than the Hoyas had as a team.

A pressing concern into 2010 is experience. The team's top receiver, two of its three top rushers, punter, and place kicker are seniors, and there's no guarantee the Hoyas don't go with yet another new QB, a position where they have rotated through 14 different starters in eight years, three last season alone. Only one incumbent since 2001 has made it to a second season as the starter.

Those are not good numbers for a team which has lost 22 of its last 23 PL games.

any decent coach understands that you can not change your offensive system MUCH LESS your QB's more often than your underwear and think you can win football games. Just changing systems is difficult but to change QB's the way GU has is insanity!!! very few QB's have ''a great 1st year" it is a position that more than any other on the field needs experience and the GU staff has never given it's team a fighting chance with a QB that is experienced. it's truly intolerable!!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As for Georgetown, it would seem there is an opportunity to start over once again on offense. Clearly something needs to change. What is there just isn't working. Probably the best thing Georgetown could do is hire a young football mind and let him go nuts, see what he can do with the talent at hand. With some wins will build confidence in the system, and will hopefully break the Hoyas out of their doldrums. And, yes, give him 5 years to make it work.

[LBPop]

any decent coach understands that you can not change your offensive system MUCH LESS your QB's more often than your underwear and think you can win football games. Just changing systems is difficult but to change QB's the way GU has is insanity!!!

When one is desperate; when one knows that they have been elevated to a position that is clearly beyond their skill set; when one can be fairly confident that they are about a year away from losing the best job they may every have; that person will often make irrational decisions...especially under pressure.

[DFW HOYA]

To be fair, this has been going for quite a while and not just the last year or so.

It seems every year Georgetown opens up with an option QB, then goes 0-3 and changes to a drop-back passer, and then either goes back to the option QB or substitutes a second string QB by season's end. The styles of Andrew Crawford, Keith Allan, Nick Cangelosi, Ben Hostetler, Matt Baussuener, Robert Lane, Keerome Lawence, James Brady, Isaiah Kempf, or Scott Darby (GU quarterbacks since 2005) were sufficiently different that was difficult for offenses to change game to game, series to series, or even a few times, from play to play, and it affected the confidence level of younger QB's.

[Pards Rule]

John Loose wouldnt go, right??

[Franks Tanks]

John Loose wouldnt go, right??

Loose is very well taken care of, but the HC job at Bucknell must be very appealing for him. John is ready for a HC job.

I heard it through the grapevine that he was offered the HC job at a NEC school a short while ago but declined due to family concerns. Basically he didnt want to uproot his family, and apparently there was also a concern with changing insurance carriers and his daugthers health situation.

Professionally it makes sense for him to be interested, personally he may not be prepared to make a move.

[ngineer]

Loose is very well taken care of, but the HC job at Bucknell must be very appealing for him. John is ready for a HC job.

I heard it through the grapevine that he was offered the HC job at a NEC school a short while ago but declined due to family concerns. Basically he didnt want to uproot his family, and apparently there was also a concern with changing insurance carriers and his daugthers health situation.

Professionally it makes sense for him to be interested, personally he may not be prepared to make a move.

Not that I'd like to see Loose leave LC (xsmiley_wix), but the HC position at a school like Bucknell is made for a guy with his resume.

[CFBfan]

To be fair, this has been going for quite a while and not just the last year or so.

It seems every year Georgetown opens up with an option QB, then goes 0-3 and changes to a drop-back passer, and then either goes back to the option QB or substitutes a second string QB by season's end. The styles of Andrew Crawford, Keith Allan, Nick Cangelosi, Ben Hostetler, Matt Baussuener, Robert Lane, Keerome Lawence, James Brady, Isaiah Kempf, or Scott Darby (GU quarterbacks since 2005) were sufficiently different that was difficult for offenses to change game to game, series to series, or even a few times, from play to play, and it affected the confidence level of younger QB's.

not just the younger QB's confidence........constant changes at the QB position PLUS the offensive scheme (or lack of!) also destroys the confidence of the entire offensive unit AND seeps into the D as well!!!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To be fair, this has been going for quite a while and not just the last year or so.

It seems every year Georgetown opens up with an option QB, then goes 0-3 and changes to a drop-back passer, and then either goes back to the option QB or substitutes a second string QB by season's end. The styles of Andrew Crawford, Keith Allan, Nick Cangelosi, Ben Hostetler, Matt Baussuener, Robert Lane, Keerome Lawence, James Brady, Isaiah Kempf, or Scott Darby (GU quarterbacks since 2005) were sufficiently different that was difficult for offenses to change game to game, series to series, or even a few times, from play to play, and it affected the confidence level of younger QB's.

Methinks that means that Georgetown should open up the need-based aid for one bookend "O" lineman a year, that means. IMO, of course.

[ngineer]

Methinks that means that Georgetown should open up the need-based aid for one bookend "O" lineman a year, that means. IMO, of course.

Yes. Seems to me Gtown's smallish line has been one of their major problems over the years. You have to start in the trenches. Doesn't matter how good your QB or backs are if you can't open holes or protect.

[jimbo65]

To be fair, this has been going for quite a while and not just the last year or so.

It seems every year Georgetown opens up with an option QB, then goes 0-3 and changes to a drop-back passer, and then either goes back to the option QB or substitutes a second string QB by season's end. The styles of Andrew Crawford, Keith Allan, Nick Cangelosi, Ben Hostetler, Matt Baussuener, Robert Lane, Keerome Lawence, James Brady, Isaiah Kempf, or Scott Darby (GU quarterbacks since 2005) were sufficiently different that was difficult for offenses to change game to game, series to series, or even a few times, from play to play, and it affected the confidence level of younger QB's.
You make a valid point about the # of QB changes leading to poor results. Forham has had two QBs over the last eight years, John Skelton & Kevin Eakins. Both were excellent and each had a playoff appearance. Coach Clawson recruited Eakins out of Florida and Skelton recruited himself by showing up with game films etc. He was in NYC to visit Columbia but they apparently were not interested so he & his dad tried a trip to the Bronx. The rest is history. Hopefully the signing of Griffin Murphy to a regular athletic schollie will keep the streak in tact. Apparently Murphy's dad is in the Holy Cross hall of fame for football.

Are you familiar with an Gtown fball alum, Ryan McGovern? We attended his wedding to my friend's daughter last year.

[CFBfan]

You make a valid point about the # of QB changes leading to poor results. Forham has had two QBs over the last eight years, John Skelton & Kevin Eakins. Both were excellent and each had a playoff appearance. Coach Clawson recruited Eakins out of Florida and Skelton recruited himself by showing up with game films etc. He was in NYC to visit Columbia but they apparently were not interested so he & his dad tried a trip to the Bronx. The rest is history. Hopefully the signing of Griffin Murphy to a regular athletic schollie will keep the streak in tact. Apparently Murphy's dad is in the Holy Cross hall of fame for football.

Are you familiar with an Gtown fball alum, Ryan McGovern? We attended his wedding to my friend's daughter last year.

is he related to the McGovern family from Oradel all who attended Bergen Catholic and went on to play at Holy Cross??

[jimbo65]

is he related to the McGovern family from Oradel all who attended Bergen Catholic and went on to play at Holy Cross??

Not sure where he is from but Ryan played at Gtown. Murphy's dad was the player for Holy Cross.

[DetroitFlyer]

Yes. Seems to me Gtown's smallish line has been one of their major problems over the years. You have to start in the trenches. Doesn't matter how good your QB or backs are if you can't open holes or protect.

Yeah, just like Dayton's small offensive line could not defeat Fordham two years in a row.... You can absolutely win with a small offensive line if you have the skill players and system to do it.... Georgetown should be running and developing a spread type offense. In fact, copy as closely as possible, the "Dayton model". Our current QB is a whopping 5' 10", 175 lb monster. Our biggest offensive lineman tops out at a whopping 280 lbs. Yet, we somehow manage to win games.... Programs like Georgetown need coaches that can figure out a way to win by going against the conventional wisdom. There just are not many 6' 5" 320 lb kids with 4.0+ GPA's and top notch test scores. Even if they exist, they will end up at places like Stanford, Duke, Rice, etc.

Here is another clue.... An effective spread offense helps to open up the running game. In Dayton's system, the QB is one of the top runners, but by the end of the game, we usually have some holes for the more traditional running backs to run through, even with the small line. Of course for this system to work, you have to have the right QB. Dayton had the "wrong" QB to start the season and we lost at home to a Division II school....

Georgetown needs some real coaching innovation. A Jim Harbaugh type guy that will just figure out a way to win, not a way to whine. Truth be told, however, those guys are also very hard to find and keep....

[CFBfan]

Not sure where he is from but Ryan played at Gtown. Murphy's dad was the player for Holy Cross.

there's a McGovern Family from NJ, I think 6 brothers one of them is on the PGA tour and another is the D co ordinator at BC and another is now th AD at Bergen Catholic. at least 3 of them palyed at Holy Cross and are in the Hall of Fame.
not sure if it's the same family?
the AD's son is a graduating senior, decent player D2 maybe 1AA

[DFW HOYA]

Yeah, just like Dayton's small offensive line could not defeat Fordham two years in a row.... You can absolutely win with a small offensive line if you have the skill players and system to do it.... Georgetown should be running and developing a spread type offense. In fact, copy as closely as possible, the "Dayton model".

The spread offense has been tried at Georgetown and has failed. Opposing teams send nine in the box and the line cannot absorb it. Its QB was sacked nine times against Fordham in the season finale, and Fordham's defense was ranked 6th in the seven team league.



Georgetown needs some real coaching innovation. A Jim Harbaugh type guy that will just figure out a way to win, not a way to whine. Truth be told, however, those guys are also very hard to find and keep....

Say what you want about Kevin Kelly, he does not whine. His responses are very measured and low-key, be it 0-1 or 0-11.

[CFBfan]

Yeah, just like Dayton's small offensive line could not defeat Fordham two years in a row.... You can absolutely win with a small offensive line if you have the skill players and system to do it.... Georgetown should be running and developing a spread type offense. In fact, copy as closely as possible, the "Dayton model". Our current QB is a whopping 5' 10", 175 lb monster. Our biggest offensive lineman tops out at a whopping 280 lbs. Yet, we somehow manage to win games.... Programs like Georgetown need coaches that can figure out a way to win by going against the conventional wisdom. There just are not many 6' 5" 320 lb kids with 4.0+ GPA's and top notch test scores. Even if they exist, they will end up at places like Stanford, Duke, Rice, etc.

Here is another clue.... An effective spread offense helps to open up the running game. In Dayton's system, the QB is one of the top runners, but by the end of the game, we usually have some holes for the more traditional running backs to run through, even with the small line. Of course for this system to work, you have to have the right QB. Dayton had the "wrong" QB to start the season and we lost at home to a Division II school....

Georgetown needs some real coaching innovation. A Jim Harbaugh type guy that will just figure out a way to win, not a way to whine. Truth be told, however, those guys are also very hard to find and keep....

2 BIG things here "coaches that can figure out how to win" and an "effective" spread!! GU has neither

[DetroitFlyer]

Well.... If GT had an effective spread, they would not be 0-11.... As I said, you need to have all of the tools in place to run an effective spread. On balance, I think that the tools and coaching are a bit easier to pull together for a spread versus a "traditional" smash mouth, Division I type offense.

Dayton did not have all of the tools in place, (QB), in game one of 2009 and we lost to Urbana at home. Plug in Steve Valentino and we should have gone undefeated, (loss to Butler was on a disputed call at end of game).... As it was, we shared the PFL title with Butler.

The spread may have failed at GT, but I would not give up on it. I just do not see any other way for a smaller team to compete at the Divison I level currently.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The spread offense has been tried at Georgetown and has failed. Opposing teams send nine in the box and the line cannot absorb it. Its QB was sacked nine times against Fordham in the season finale, and Fordham's defense was ranked 6th in the seven team league.

Two things:

1) There's that "O" line again.

2) Fordham's defensive line actually wasn't all that bad last year. DE Darzell Wright was a football player, and Fordham's defense is particularly aggressive at the line of scrimmage. In tackles for loss on the year, Fordham was only behind Lehigh in the PL - and they were 20th nationally (Lehigh was 10th).

[CFBfan]

The spread offense has been tried at Georgetown and has failed. Opposing teams send nine in the box and the line cannot absorb it. Its QB was sacked nine times against Fordham in the season finale, and Fordham's defense was ranked 6th in the seven team league.



Say what you want about Kevin Kelly, he does not whine. His responses are very measured and low-key, be it 0-1 or 0-11.

by all accounts he is a good and decent man BUT that doesn't make him a good coach........

[Pards Rule]

Loose is very well taken care of, but the HC job at Bucknell must be very appealing for him. John is ready for a HC job.

I heard it through the grapevine that he was offered the HC job at a NEC school a short while ago but declined due to family concerns. Basically he didnt want to uproot his family, and apparently there was also a concern with changing insurance carriers and his daugthers health situation.

Professionally it makes sense for him to be interested, personally he may not be prepared to make a move.

That would have been CCSU I assume

[Franks Tanks]

That would have been CCSU I assume

That was the word

[crusader11]

Yet, we somehow manage to win games.... .

Pretty easy to win when you play the likes of Urbana. Oh wait, you actually lost to them.......