Strongest FCS Conferences?

[Native]

The national championship thread was getting clogged with a conference strength pissing contest, hence a new thread devoted to strength of conference.

I am only interested in "...No smack. Low noise, reasoned opinions..." as the charter of this blog space sets forth. Otherwise, Henzone and others can start their own BS thread on the smack board where it belongs.

Strength of conference is an important FCS issue because it impacts playoff seedings and how at-large teams are selected to participate in the playoffs. So a reasoned discussion of conference strength is appropriate for the FCS Discussion board.

To begin, I congratulate Montana and Villanova for making it to the title game, to the CAA and BSC conferences for sending them, and to every team which made it to the playoffs this year, as well as their conferences. xthumbsupx

How do we measure strength of conference? One way is post season performance. Here is a starting thought for this year's FCS strength of conference discussion:

The CAA sent four teams to the playoffs, each of which won their first round, and three of which made it all the way to the semifinals. Colonial stands 7-3 (70%) in the post season so far, with Villanova playing in the national championship game. Wow! xthumbsupx This is a singular conference accomplishment! Even if Montana wins the NC game, the Big Sky will barely edge out the CAA in post season playoff winning percentage, 66.7% to 63.7% Well played! xthumbsupx

The Big Sky sent three teams this year. Eastern Washington and Weber State bowed out in the first round, but the conference stands 3-2 (60%) in the post season due to Montana's thus far undefeated drive all the way to the national championship game. xthumbsupx

SOCON sent two representatives. Elon went out in the first round, but perennial power Appalachian State made a hell of a run, losing to Montana in the semifinals by a single touchdown, but lifting the conference post season record to 2-2 (50%). xthumbsupx

The Missouri Valley looked to be on fire, but UNI choked in the last game of the regular season to restrict the conference to only South Dakota State and Southern Illinois in the playoffs. Their collective record was 1-2 (33%).

Southland also sent two, McNeese and Stephen F. Austin, but like the MVFC, no one made it past the second round, the end result was also 1-2 (33%).

The Patriot, MEAC and Ohio Valley each sent their autobid representatives, but each lost in the first round.

Based on 2009 post season performances, going into the national championship game, the FCS conferences would seem to rank:

1. CAA
2. BSC
3. SOCON
4. (tied) MVFC and Southland
6. (tied) OVC, MEAC, Patriot

If Montana wins, then the Big Sky will have a better post season winning percentage than any other conference, but that will not detract from the CAA's incredible multiple team peformance.

[GannonFan]

I don't think much has changed in 5 years - the way I see it:

Top: CAA
Next Tier: SoCon, MVFC, Big Sky
Tier after that: Southland
Tier after that: everyone else.

[BlackNGold]

Top: SoCon, CAA
Next Tier: MVFC, Big Sky
Tier after that: Southland
Tier after that: everyone else.

[rlslim]

Thank you for starting this, hopefully it will clear up the NC thread xthumbsupx

[Hoyadestroya85]

When i first saw the title i thought "are you freaking kidding me" but then when i saw the post, this isn't a bad idea, I think obviously the incredible multi team performances of the CAA year after year has to put them above everyone else, this season the big sky was probably a little bit stronger as a whole than the SoCon and then the Missouri Valley probably.

[charliej]

The national championship thread was getting clogged with a conference strength pissing contest, hence a new thread devoted to strength of conference.

I am only interested in "...No smack. Low noise, reasoned opinions..." as the charter of this blog space sets forth. Otherwise, Henzone and others can start their own BS thread on the smack board where it belongs.

Strength of conference is an important FCS issue because it impacts playoff seedings and how at-large teams are selected to participate in the playoffs. So a reasoned discussion of conference strength is appropriate for the FCS Discussion board.

To begin, I congratulate Montana and Villanova for making it to the title game, to the CAA and BSC conferences for sending them, and to every team which made it to the playoffs this year, as well as their conferences. xthumbsupx

How do we measure strength of conference? One way is post season performance. Here is a starting thought for this year's FCS strength of conference discussion:

The CAA sent four teams to the playoffs, each of which won their first round, and three of which made it all the way to the semifinals. Colonial stands 7-3 (70%) in the post season so far, with Villanova playing in the national championship game. Wow! xthumbsupx This is a singular conference accomplishment! Even if Montana wins the NC game, the Big Sky will barely edge out the CAA in post season playoff winning percentage, 66.7% to 63.7% Well played! xthumbsupx

The Big Sky sent three teams this year. Eastern Washington and Weber State bowed out in the first round, but the conference stands 3-2 (60%) in the post season due to Montana's thus far undefeated drive all the way to the national championship game. xthumbsupx

SOCON sent two representatives. Elon went out in the first round, but perennial power Appalachian State made a hell of a run, losing to Montana in the semifinals by a single touchdown, but lifting the conference post season record to 2-2 (50%). xthumbsupx

The Missouri Valley looked to be on fire, but UNI choked in the last game of the regular season to restrict the conference to only South Dakota State and Southern Illinois in the playoffs. Their collective record was 1-2 (33%).

Southland also sent two, McNeese and Stephen F. Austin, but like the MVFC, no one made it past the second round, the end result was also 1-2 (33%).

The Patriot, MEAC and Ohio Valley each sent their autobid representatives, but each lost in the first round.

Based on 2009 post season performances, going into the national championship game, the FCS conferences would seem to rank:

1. CAA
2. BSC
3. SOCON
4. (tied) MVFC and Southland
6. (tied) OVC, MEAC, Patriot

If Montana wins, then the Big Sky will have a better post season winning percentage than any other conference, but that will not detract from the CAA's incredible multiple team peformance.

This is true, however 2 of the 3 CAA losses were to another CAA team. In non-CAA matchups they went 5-1, or 83%.... ;)

Even with a win, The BSC would fall just short.xnodx:p

[Silenoz]

I don't think much has changed in 5 years - the way I see it:

Top: CAA
Next Tier: SoCon, MVFC, Big Sky
Tier after that: Southland
Tier after that: everyone else.

Yep


Not to put down the Southland or anything, I just don't know what their problem is in the post-season (aside from apparently being cursed in Wa-Griz)

[phoenixphanatic21]

The national championship thread was getting clogged with a conference strength pissing contest, hence a new thread devoted to strength of conference.

I am only interested in "...No smack. Low noise, reasoned opinions..." as the charter of this blog space sets forth. Otherwise, Henzone and others can start their own BS thread on the smack board where it belongs.

Good luck getting no smack here. You know it's coming, sadly.

I agree with your rankings, except I'd put the SoCon and BSC tied at second.

[Native]

Nice points, one and all. Thanks.

But another question implied by some of the responses and which we therefore should ask is "What is the appropriate time frame for conference strength comparisons?"

I think more than one time frame is appropriate.

1. This year
2. The decade
3. All time

1. This year, the conferences fall out pretty much as I have outlined along with other posters and are roughly aligned with the Massey, Sagarin and GPI.

2. This decade, I must say that SOCON takes the cake as #1 with FOUR National Championships and the highest winning percentage. Using the same metrics, the CAA is #2, regardless of who wins the NC this week, and Big Sky is either #3 or perhaps tied with the Missouri Valley IF Montana loses this week and assuming that Western Kentucky was part of the MV during its early decade playoff runs. (Can someone clarify Western Kentucky's FCS affiliations?) That leaves MVFC #4 and Patriot tied with Southland for #5, on the strength of each conference having participated in a single NC game this decade.

3. All time? I have not yet crunched the numbers! But Big Sky standing will remain high on the strength of past national championships and championship runs from former conference members Nevada, Idaho and Boise State, and past glory from Idaho State and Montana State. Missouri valley would also remain strong for similar reasons. MEAC and Ohio Valley would undoubtedly rise up based on the faded glory of former champions. What were the conference affiliations of former powerhouses such as Western Kentucky, Marshall, Louisiana Tech (edit), Arkansas State? Heck, what conferences were even in existence in the 70's and 80's?!??? This one might be too hard to figure out.

[Native]

Good luck getting no smack here. You know it's coming, sadly.

I agree with your rankings, except I'd put the SoCon and BSC tied at second.

For the decade, I have SOCON an undisputable #1, with four national championships and five different teams making the playoffs and accumulating the highest post season winning percentage of any conference over the course of the decade.

This year, there is too much daylight at this point between BSC and SOCON for the 2nd place tie, but the results of the NC game will either increase the daylight or bring the conference into a tie, as you suggest.

[Native]

This is true, however 2 of the 3 CAA losses were to another CAA team. In non-CAA matchups they went 5-1, or 83%.... ;)

Even with a win, The BSC would fall just short.xnodx:p

Post season intra-conference match ups are unavoidable for a 12-team conference, but point acknowledged. At some point we should bring in regular season out of conference games, but Massey and Sagarin do that already.

[charliej]

Post season intra-conference match ups are unavoidable for a 12-team conference, but point acknowledged. At some point we should bring in regular season out of conference games, but Massey and Sagarin do that already.

It's got nothing to do with a 12 team conference, its the brackets and how they fall. Had EWU or Elon won a first round game, they would have met a conference foe in round 2.

Regardless, if you're discussing conference strength you really have to toss out intra-conference games correct?

[Native]

It's got nothing to do with a 12 team conference, its the brackets and how they fall. Had EWU or Elon won a first round game, they would have met a conference foe in round 2.

Regardless, if you're discussing conference strength you really have to toss out intra-conference games correct?

Weber had to play Montana in the quarterfinals last year. It was irritating, since we already beat them in the regular season, but the results still counted.

Yours is a valid and interesting discussion point, but no, there is no reason to toss out the result.

And yes, conference size comes into play. Sending 4 of 12 is the same playoff participation percentage as sending 3 of 9.

[Native]

I don't think much has changed in 5 years - the way I see it:

Top: CAA
Next Tier: SoCon, MVFC, Big Sky
Tier after that: Southland
Tier after that: everyone else.

Five years is also a reasonable time frame for comparison, but by narrowing the window from ten years to five years, the CAA would lose two of its three national championships over the past decade versus SOCON losing only one. Thus from 2005 through 2009 the SOCON still blows away the competition and remains the #1 FCS conference by virtue of App State's three national titles.

[JohnStOnge]

Five years is also a reasonable time frame for comparison, but by narrowing the window from ten years to five years, the CAA would lose two of its three national championships over the past decade versus SOCON losing only one. Thus from 2005 through 2009 the SOCON still blows away the competition and remains the #1 FCS conference by virtue of App State's three national titles.

I don't think the toughest conference is necessarily indicated by who won the national championship. That'd be like calling the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference the best in Division II because of Grand Valley State. No way.

[KUlawJack]

I don't think the toughest conference is necessarily indicated by who won the national championship. That'd be like calling the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference the best in Division II because of Grand Valley State. No way.

This is a great point.

[Native]

I don't think the toughest conference is necessarily indicated by who won the national championship. That'd be like calling the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference the best in Division II because of Grand Valley State. No way.

Fair enough, but define and defend your terms, John!

The comparison metrics clearly set forth in the original post were conference playoff performances.

[McNeese72]

Nice points, one and all. Thanks.

But another question implied by some of the responses and which we therefore should ask is "What is the appropriate time frame for conference strength comparisons?"

I think more than one time frame is appropriate.

1. This year
2. The decade
3. All time

1. This year, the conferences fall out pretty much as I have outlined along with other posters and are roughly aligned with the Massey, Sagarin and GPI.

2. This decade, I must say that SOCON takes the cake as #1 with FOUR National Championships and the highest winning percentage. Using the same metrics, the CAA is #2, regardless of who wins the NC this week, and Big Sky is either #3 or perhaps tied with the Missouri Valley IF Montana loses this week and assuming that Western Kentucky was part of the MV during its early decade playoff runs. (Can someone clarify Western Kentucky's FCS affiliations?) That leaves MVFC #4 and Patriot tied with Southland for #5, on the strength of each conference having participated in a single NC game this decade.

3. All time? I have not yet crunched the numbers! But Big Sky standing will remain high on the strength of past national championships and championship runs from former conference members Nevada, Idaho and Boise State, and past glory from Idaho State and Montana State. Missouri valley would also remain strong for similar reasons. MEAC and Ohio Valley would undoubtedly rise up based on the faded glory of former champions. What were the conference affiliations of former powerhouses such as Western Kentucky, Marshall, Louisiana State, Arkansas State? Heck, what conferences were even in existence in the 70's and 80's?!??? This one might be too hard to figure out.

Louisiana State?????

The Southland has lost North Texas, La. Tech, Northeast La. (ULM), Ark St., and Troy St. to the abyss that is non-BCS FBS. Also, Texas-Arlington and Lamar gave up football.

Doc

[JohnStOnge]

Define and defend your terms then. The terms clearly set forth in the original post were playoff conference performances.

I would not gauge conference strength strickly on playoff winning percentage by conference. If you do that you can have a conference that has one good team with everybody else stinking and have that one team go 4-0. I don't know if it's valid to judge overall conference strength just by what happens in the playoffs. But even if we accept that premise, I think there is a need to go to something other than just the winning percentage for the conference.

I mean, when you have a situation where one conference goes 4-0 in the first round and another goes 1-2 that needs to be taken into account even if the one that went 1-2 has one team that wins the rest of its games. That's especially true when the conference that went 4-0 had one of its wins over the one that went 1-2 by 38-0. At least without looking it up I think that's what the score was.

I think if anybody looks at the playoffs this year there's absolutely no question as to which conference looked to be strongest. The CAA only has one playoff loss at this point to a non conference opponent and it as very close. William & Mary absolutely smothered Weber State and Southern Illinois. Looking at this year's playoff and using your God-Given brain should tell anyone that the CAA will have had by far the most impressive playoff performance among the leagues regardless of what happens in the championship game.

[Native]

Louisiana State?????

The Southland has lost North Texas, La. Tech, Northeast La. (ULM), Ark St., and Troy St. to the abyss that is non-BCS FBS. Also, Texas-Arlington and Lamar gave up football.

Doc

Oops! :o

Louisiana Tech made it to the semifinals in 1982 and to the national championship game in 1984.

[Native]

I would not gauge conference strength strickly on playoff winning percentage by conference. If you do that you can have a conference that has one good team with everybody else stinking and have that one team go 4-0. I don't know if it's valid to judge overall conference strength just by what happens in the playoffs. But even if we accept that premise, I think there is a need to go to something other than just the winning percentage for the conference.

I mean, when you have a situation where one conference goes 4-0 in the first round and another goes 1-2 that needs to be taken into account even if the one that went 1-2 has one team that wins the rest of its games. That's especially true when the one that went 4-0 had one of its wins over the one that went 1-2 by 38-0. At least without looking it up I think that's what the score was.

Sure. And in the case where the CAA went 4-0 in the first round and the Big Sky went 1-2, that strength IS taken into account by a winning percentage of 100% versus 33%

But you've still got to do more than just critique the proposed framework for comparison. You must also offer an alternative framework and defend it.

This YEAR, the CAA is clearly a stronger conference than the SOCON and so far, stronger than the Big Sky due to the strong first, second and third round performances of multiple CAA teams. This is an important measure but not the only measure. Even if Montana wins you can say that the CAA is stronger as a conference than the Big Sky and get no argument from me, especially after Weber lost to W&M 38-0! :o.

By the way, the worst goose egg in first round history was laid by Rhode Island (CAA) when they lost 0-51 to the eventual national champion, Idaho State (BSC), in 1981. EKU was skunked twice in the 90's, by 44 and 48 points, and North Carolina A&T was skunked by 44 in 1992. Weber's 2009 playoff performance tied UMass for the 5th worst opening round goose egg in FCS history, when the Wildcats lost be the same 0-38 score to the same team which had beaten the Minutemen, William & Mary. Other first round skunk victims were Furman, Jacksonville State, North Texas, Florida A&M, Citadel, and Bethune-Cookman.

Of the 13 first round goose eggs laid in all of FCS history, here is how the conferences stack up:

MEAC: 4
OVC: 3
CAA/SOCON (tie) 2 (including the all-time worst skunk belonging to URI/CAA)
BSC/SL (tie): 1
MVFC/Patriot (tie): 0

So by this measure the Missouri Valley and Patriot Leagues are best. xlolx

Honestly, I do not believe any one measure to be appropriate to measure conference strength.

[appstate1998]

I'm not a big fan of calling a conference the strongest when they don't play everyone in their conference. For instance this year in the CAA if you played Rhode Island...you had an automatic win. Their only conference games that were close were against the other bottom feeders. The four CAA playoff participants only loss to each other except for NH who had the slip up with UMASS....but how can you really say the conference is stronger because you had 4 good teams and 8 really bad. I really have no clue who I would say is the strongest conference but I wouldn't just pick CAA b/c they had the most playoff bids.

[GolfingGriz]

If Montana got any help from the rest of the conference it would be the best in the nation

[UNHFootballAlum]

Sure. And in the case where the CAA went 4-0 in the first round and the Big Sky went 1-2, that strength IS taken into account by a winning percentage of 100% versus 33%

But you've still got to do more than just critique the proposed framework for comparison. You must also offer an alternative framework and defend it.

This YEAR, the CAA is clearly a stronger conference than the SOCON and so far, stronger than the Big Sky due to the strong first, second and third round performances of multiple CAA teams. This is an important measure but not the only measure. Even if Montana wins you can say that the CAA is stronger as a conference than the Big Sky and get no argument from me, especially after Weber lost to W&M 38-0! :o.

By the way, the worst goose egg in first round history was laid by Rhode Island (CAA) when they lost 0-51 to the eventual national champion, Idaho State (BSC), in 1981. EKU was skunked twice in the 90's, by 44 and 48 points, and North Carolina A&T was skunked by 44 in 1992. Weber's 2009 playoff performance tied UMass for the 5th worst opening round goose egg in FCS history, when the Wildcats lost be the same 0-38 score to the same team which had beaten the Minutemen, William & Mary. Other first round skunk victims were Furman, Jacksonville State, North Texas, Florida A&M, Citadel, and Bethune-Cookman.

Of the 13 first round goose eggs laid in all of FCS history, here is how the conferences stack up:

MEAC: 4
OVC: 3
CAA/SOCON (tie) 2 (including the all-time worst skunk belonging to URI/CAA)
BSC/SL (tie): 1
MVFC/Patriot (tie): 0

So by this measure the Missouri Valley and Patriot Leagues are best. xlolx

Honestly, I do not believe any one measure to be appropriate to measure conference strength.

You also need to take into account the number of teams that a conference put into the playoffs. that along with playoff perfoemance would be a good barometer

[Native]

You also need to take into account the number of teams that a conference put into the playoffs. that along with playoff performance would be a good barometer

Point well taken. CAA placed four strong teams this year, one third of the conference membership. The Big Sky also placed a third of its member teams into the playoffs, but two of the three were clearly not as strong as this year's CAA playoff participants.

[th0m]

It's nice to see a sensible discussion on this, and makes it that much more pleasant to read.

[GrizBowl]

If Montana got any help from the rest of the conference it would be the best in the nation

I think that competitively the BSC has been improving through the years and we will likely see the conference improve in strength. All lot of opposing teams want to knock us out and can not be overlooked. In the next few years, don't be surprised if Eastern Washington, Weber St, or Montana State become emergent threats for the BSC title

[GolfingGriz]

I think that competitively the BSC has been improving through the years and we will likely see the conference improve in strength. All lot of opposing teams want to knock us out and can not be overlooked. In the next few years, don't be surprised if Eastern Washington, Weber St, or Montana State become emergent threats for the BSC title

I don't like how inconsistant it is. It seems like every team is good once every 4-6 years. There have been a few exceptions, but how many times have we said look out for UNC/SAC/NAU/PSU cause they are gonna be really improved this year. EWU and MSU are never terrible but they are only playoff caliber about once every four years. I don't know if it is because UM is always there to suppress the rest of the league or what.

The above mentioned teams by GrizBowl certainly present some intrigue, but they really aren't that close. Atleast not this year. Now that may change, but as long as Hauck is leading the Griz I think everybody else will be playing for second for a long time to come.

[JMU Newbill]

I personally think the Big Sky is one or two decent non-Montana long runs in the playoffs from being in that upper tier of teams (with the SoCon and the CAA). Assuming of course, Montana continues to play at the level they have for the last dozen years or so. However, there needs to be one or two more consistent playoff threats in the mix. You can't just call a conference powerful based on the performance of one team. If EWU and/or Weber can put together some playoff wins in the next couple of years, I think the conference can shed a lot of the stigma that surrounds it.


So, I guess my view of it all is rather simplistic. To me.. its:

Top Tier - CAA, SoCon, Big Sky (almost there)
Everyone else

[bpcats]

General impression that I have had about strongest conferences would be:

1) CAA - consistently put 4-5 teams in the playoffs
2) MVFC - I would think that they should be very tough if not the toughest conference in some years with SIU, NIU, and the Dakota Schools
3) Big Sky - yes Montana dominates, but other schools EWU, Weber, MSU are usually very strong and can hang with any school.
4) SoCon - App State and everybody else
5) Southern

As far as the Big Sky goes next year the conference will have a lot of questions

1) Montana - will reload
2) Weber - Have Higgins back for senior year and they were fairly young at most of their positions this year
3) Montana State - basically everybody is back and if they can ever field a healthy team for a full year should be very strong.
4) EWU - will be breaking in a new quarterback but rest of team was fairly young.
5) NAU - do not want to play this team early in the season as they are very dangerous, however they must stop their late season slides...a lot like the Dallas Cowboys.

6) UNColorado - I think that Waggener is gone but they will have a trio talented receivers back from injury and a very good rb.
7) Portland State - new coach look for transitional problems
8) Sac State - I think they are trying to copy Grizzly way of playing with a huge oline and pounding you and play action pass. Must learn to win consistently
9) Idaho State - young players and injuries massacred the last season but they always play hard and gave the Griz a scare.

I think besides PSU and probably Idaho State the rest of the conference is a flat out battle.

[HenZoneNation]

I think the arguement for best team of the decade is a pretty easy one. Outside of the 5 years that they were the team to beat Appy St was a strong program and no stranger to the playoffs. It's Appy 1, Montana 2.

With conferences I think it depends on what your opinion is in regards to individual dominate performances lifting the rest the of a conference. If you go by total NC (assuming Villanova doesn't win) and games won in the playoffs then SoCon is the strongest conference even if the majority of those wins came from one school and not the conference as a whole. If you go by the number of different teams from a conference who have either won or made it to the NC then it's the CAA. The same arguement could be made by the AFC North and East. Both have three Super Bowls, but the while the Patriots are probably the dominate team of this decade, the Steelers and Ravens have the same total number of Super Bowl rings. In the CAA we haven't had a Montana or Appy, that dominent team that wins year in and year out but yet we still have had great success in the playoffs.

Me I tend to think that one team dominating a conference, or in Appy State's case, the FCS is not indictactive of a set conference, but of a dynasty. I think Appy is to the SoCon what Montana is to the BSC.

Just an opinion...not smack talk.

[Doc QB]

I don't really think there is much of an argument. This decade App State has had a tremendous run, but no other SoCon teams have, and outside of maybe two of them, no one is a perrenial mutliple game winner in playoffs. During the same run, the CAA has had multiple NC winners/runner ups, multiple teams in many times, and won a few deep each time, as well as has knocked off some FBS teams.

If you want to compare the other end of the spectrum, conference weakness, each big conf has multiple bottom feeders, and in that respect, the SoCon, CAA, Big Sky, and MVFC are VERY equal with number of less competitive teams that will rarely challenge the upper echelon in their league or compete in the playoffs.

Ask yourself this...if you take Montana out of Big Sky and App out of SoCon, what do you have? Take just one of the successful teams out of CAA (dealer's choice here- UNH, Richmond, W&M, 'Nova, Delaware, UMass, JMU), what do you have...probably still three top 15 teams and mutliple playoff participants.

[Rekdiver]

It changes...only in the last 3 years has the CAA emerged strongest. Southern before that...It will swing again.............

[JMUNJ08]

I'm not a big fan of calling a conference the strongest when they don't play everyone in their conference. For instance this year in the CAA if you played Rhode Island...you had an automatic win. Their only conference games that were close were against the other bottom feeders. The four CAA playoff participants only loss to each other except for NH who had the slip up with UMASS....but how can you really say the conference is stronger because you had 4 good teams and 8 really bad. I really have no clue who I would say is the strongest conference but I wouldn't just pick CAA b/c they had the most playoff bids.

We should answer your question this year as we can only skip 1 team. xthumbsupx However, I think you can say, for the last couple of years, that any team coming out of the South division cannot be held down because they didn't play 3 from the North. Few would argue that the South has been 4-5 deep out of 6 for a few years now. No other entire conference has been that deep since the SoCon a few years back. JMU missed UNH, URI & NE. I can easily see them going 2-1 against those three which is no different than this year's record against HU, UMass & Maine. UNH has proved with missing 3 bigs from the South every year that they are still a strong team by winning FBS & playoff games on the road. The only team you could say not deserving of the playoffs in the past 5 or so years is Maine last year and most CAA people would agree. They were a good team but others were more deserving.

If we brought 4-5 every year to the playoffs and went 1-3, 2-3, 1-4 consistently, our inflated records would hold water. Until then, it does not...

[JMUNJ08]

I don't really think there is much of an argument. This decade App State has had a tremendous run, but no other SoCon teams have, and outside of maybe two of them, no one is a perrenial mutliple game winner in playoffs. During the same run, the CAA has had multiple NC winners/runner ups, multiple teams in many times, and won a few deep each time, as well as has knocked off some FBS teams.

If you want to compare the other end of the spectrum, conference weakness, each big conf has multiple bottom feeders, and in that respect, the SoCon, CAA, Big Sky, and MVFC are VERY equal with number of less competitive teams that will rarely challenge the upper echelon in their league or compete in the playoffs.

Ask yourself this...if you take Montana out of Big Sky and App out of SoCon, what do you have? Take just one of the successful teams out of CAA (dealer's choice here- UNH, Richmond, W&M, 'Nova, Delaware, UMass, JMU), what do you have...probably still three top 15 teams and mutliple playoff participants.

xthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupx

For those "size haters" I would even say take 2 out and you still have quality left...

[JMU Newbill]

It changes...only in the last 3 years has the CAA emerged strongest. Southern before that...It will swing again.............


I agree. As is with most things, conference strengths can be measured in trends.

[eaglemachine]

It changes...only in the last 3 years has the CAA emerged strongest. Southern before that...It will swing again.............
+1

A lot of the teams in the SoCon are rebuilding their programs with new coaches and new university leadership the past few years.

[4th and What?]

Not sure how conference size has any impact on this discussion. Any conference game should have 0 impact on determining strength of conferece as there is no outside comparison. There is an argument where not playing every team in your conference could cause a team not to be exposed, for example was Elon exposed by App State this year? If Elon did not play App St, they may of had an argument for a seed in the playoffs. Therefore judging individual teams the whole "you don't play everyone in your conference" has a place. But the conference as a whole it really doesn't. Did App St beating Elon have any significant effect on the strength of the Socon as a whole? No.

Looking at the playoffs certainly judges the top tiers of each conference. But if you are going to judge conference strength I would think you would want to judge the entire conference. To compare the CAA and BSC, you should compare the strength of both Villanova and Montana, but also compare the strength of Idaho St and Rhode Island. The best way to do this is to look at all out of conference games. The playoffs are certainly a great way to get OOC games from top programs, but should not be a stand alone judge. Should BSC teams of lost in the last week of the season, and Montana be the only representative from the BSC in the playoffs, would that mean the BSC was hands down the strongest conference?

[tribefan40]

Five years is also a reasonable time frame for comparison, but by narrowing the window from ten years to five years, the CAA would lose two of its three national championships over the past decade versus SOCON losing only one. Thus from 2005 through 2009 the SOCON still blows away the competition and remains the #1 FCS conference by virtue of App State's three national titles.

Are we discussing best team or best conference? App State has clearly been the best and most consistent team over the past 5 years, with montana second and so on...

As overall conference performances go I believe the CAA has more apperences and wins in the playoffs, followed very closely by SoCon and Big Sky.

[UncleSam]

Prior to UMass winning the title in '98, the CAA/A10 (other than Delaware) was not much of a factor in the FCS/I-AA playoffs. However since 1998 the CAA/A10 has won four titles (UMass, UD, JMU, UR) and also had two runners up (UMass, UD). That is very comparable to the SoCon, who during that same time frame has had five champs (ASU,3 - GSU,2) and also two runner ups (GSU, FU). If Nova wins tonight, the CAA and SoCon would each have five titles between them, but there is one HUGE difference as the SoCon's five titles were accumulated by just two schools, while the four and maybe five CAA titles will have been won by four or five different teams. That is a fact that speaks directly to a leagues's overall strength and in my opinion, pushes the CAA to the top of the FCS pile. In addition, over that same time frame ('98-'09), in head to head playoff competiton, the CAA/A10 holds a narrow 13-12 advantage over the SoCon. So it's seems pretty apparent to me that over the last twelve years the CAA/A10 and the SoCon have had very similar playoff results vs the FCS and each other. The SoCon obviously had the advantage in the early part on those past twelve seasons, while the CAA has really come on strong over the later part of those same years.

[WestCoastAggie]

Here's a question, which conference is the weakest one?

[tribefan40]

I'm not a big fan of calling a conference the strongest when they don't play everyone in their conference. For instance this year in the CAA if you played Rhode Island...you had an automatic win. Their only conference games that were close were against the other bottom feeders. The four CAA playoff participants only loss to each other except for NH who had the slip up with UMASS....but how can you really say the conference is stronger because you had 4 good teams and 8 really bad. I really have no clue who I would say is the strongest conference but I wouldn't just pick CAA b/c they had the most playoff bids.

Some of those 'bottom feeders' were ranked at various points this year - two (UMASS and Delaware) within the top 20. When UNH lost to UMASS - UMASS was ranked.

As for the bottom 8 in the CAA - If you take out the loss that each had to an FBS school, they were collectively 12-5 against out-of-conference opponents. Pretty impressive. xthumbsupx

[GoDukes86]

One team does not make a league strong. As outstanding as App State has been for the past 5 years, this hasn't made their Conference stronger. In fact, their success has distanced themselves from the rest of their conference rivals, hence the 5 straight SoCon championships. If you're judging a conference in its entirety, then the CAA stands out based on the # of teams at the top. With the recent fallout of NE and Hofstra, the league has become even stronger. I look for a lot of changes within both conferences in the next few years, so this can change from year to year.

[blueballs]

I don't really think there is much of an argument. This decade App State has had a tremendous run, but no other SoCon teams have, and outside of maybe two of them, no one is a perrenial mutliple game winner in playoffs. During the same run, the CAA has had multiple NC winners/runner ups, multiple teams in many times, and won a few deep each time, as well as has knocked off some FBS teams.

HUH???

GSU won the NC in 2000 and made the semis in 2001 (losing to fellow SoCon member Furman) and 2002.

Furman was in the finals in 2001 and made the semis in 2005 (losing to fellow SoCon member ASU).

[Native]

HUH???

GSU won the NC in 2000 and made the semis in 2001 (losing to fellow SoCon member Furman) and 2002.

Furman was in the finals in 2001 and made the semis in 2005 (losing to fellow SoCon member ASU).

Exactly so. Over the course of the decade, the SOCON as a conference has had the best run in the FCS.

CAA is a great and powerful conference, but it is not made more so by irrationally exuberant claims based on perceptions not grounded in facts.

[Native]

GPI Conference Ranking:
Rank, League, Total Average
1. Colonial Athletic Association (25.40)
2. Big Sky Conference (30.29)
3. Southern Conference (31.15)
4. Great West Conference (31.72)
5. Missouri Valley Football Conference (33.40)
6. Southland Conference (40.50)
7. Ohio Valley Conference (49.95)
8. Patriot League (50.70)
9. Big South Conference (51.40)
10. Ivy League (51.75)
11. Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference (60.14)
12. Southwestern Athletic Conference (64.23)
13. Northeast Conference (66.22)
14. Pioneer Football League (73.40)
15. Independents (75.21)

It isn't close this year.

For this year, I would agree. For the decade, SOCON takes the prize!

[GoDukes86]

The Socon was definitely the best conference back in the 1930's and '40's.

C'mon, in the here and now, there's little room for debate, the CAA is the strongest conference.

Subject to change each year.

[eaglemachine]

The Socon was definitely the best conference back in the 1930's and '40's.

C'mon, in the here and now, there's little room for debate, the CAA is the strongest conference.

Subject to change each year.

The last 3 years. Yes
The last decade. No.
The decade prior. No.

Admittedly, the SoCon as a whole was weak this year compared to previous years, but GaSou will be coming back soon (hopefully) with a new option coach and new pres, Furman just got a new pres that stated he wanted the football program to win another NC, Chatty got a new coach last year and greatly improved this year, Western Carolina got a new coach last year, Woffard should be back after their injury filled season this year. Competition in the SoCon should get fierce in the next few years.

[JMUNJ08]

Prior to UMass winning the title in '98, the CAA/A10 (other than Delaware) was not much of a factor in the FCS/I-AA playoffs. However since 1998 the CAA/A10 has won four titles (UMass, UD, JMU, UR) and also had two runners up (UMass, UD). That is very comparable to the SoCon, who during that same time frame has had five champs (ASU,3 - GSU,2) and also two runner ups (GSU, FU). If Nova wins tonight, the CAA and SoCon would each have five titles between them, but there is one HUGE difference as the SoCon's five titles were accumulated by just two schools, while the four and maybe five CAA titles will have been won by four or five different teams. That is a fact that speaks directly to a leagues's overall strength and in my opinion, pushes the CAA to the top of the FCS pile. In addition, over that same time frame ('98-'09), in head to head playoff competiton, the CAA/A10 holds a narrow 13-12 advantage over the SoCon. So it's seems pretty apparent to me that over the last twelve years the CAA/A10 and the SoCon have had very similar playoff results vs the FCS and each other. The SoCon obviously had the advantage in the early part on those past twelve seasons, while the CAA has really come on strong over the later part of those same years.


Exactly so. Over the course of the decade, the SOCON as a conference has had the best run in the FCS.

CAA is a great and powerful conference, but it is not made more so by irrationally exuberant claims based on perceptions not grounded in facts.

I see facts and not irrationally exuberant claims from not just one CAA poster xeyebrowxxrulesx

You named 3 teams in the decade while the CAA can name 5. Its pretty close to a dead heat now as I see more into it as I am only 6 years into my FCS love:D

[jmufan999]

Here's a question, which conference is the weakest one?

i would have said the MEAC until i watched SCSU the last 2 years. while i don't think either one of those App State teams were all that great, SCSU did much better than, say.... Delaware State getting shut out at Delaware.

i'd say you'd have to start with the conferences that are non-scholarship. this is why there is an even greater disparity between the "top dogs" and the cellar dwellars in FCS. in FBS, at least they all have scholarships.

[Native]

I don't really think there is much of an argument. This decade App State has had a tremendous run, but no other SoCon teams have, and outside of maybe two of them, no one is a perrenial mutliple game winner in playoffs. During the same run, the CAA has had multiple NC winners/runner ups, multiple teams in many times, and won a few deep each time, as well as has knocked off some FBS teams. ...


Georgia Southern won the National Championship in 2000, Furman was the runner-up in 2001 (edits). Four different SOCON teams reached the semifinals a total of 11 times in the past decade. ...and this from a much smaller conference than the CAA. Get the facts straight.

This year the CAA has been dominant, but over the course of the entire decade, some of your criticism of the SOCON can also be made about the CAA: "...no one is a perennial game winner in the playoffs..."


I...Ask yourself this...if you take Montana out of Big Sky and App out of SoCon, what do you have? Take just one of the successful teams out of CAA (dealer's choice here- UNH, Richmond, W&M, 'Nova, Delaware, UMass, JMU), what do you have...probably still three top 15 teams and mutliple playoff participants.

It's a fair question to ask. In this decade your criticism may be valid for the Big Sky, since no team besides Montana has made it to the semifinals. But your criticism rings hollow with the SOCON, which has sent four different teams to the semis despite being a much smaller conference.

There is no question that the CAA deserves credit for sending multiple teams to the playoffs, but with the largest conference membership in the FCS, we should expect the CAA to do so.

We should also ask the equally fair question, "With so many teams in the conference and making it to the playoffs, why hasn't the CAA won more national championships?"

[GolfingGriz]

Georgia Southern won the National Championship in 2001, Furman was the runner-up in 2002. Four different SOCON teams reached the semifinals a total of 11 times in the past decade. ...and this from a much smaller conference than the CAA. Get the facts straight.

This year the CAA has been dominant, but over the course of the entire decade, some of your criticism of the SOCON can also be made about the CAA: "...no one is a perennial game winner in the playoffs..."


It's a fair question to ask. In this decade your criticism may be valid for the Big Sky, since no team besides Montana has made it to the semifinals. But your criticism rings hollow with the SOCON, which has sent four different teams to the semis despite being a much smaller conference.

There is no question that the CAA deserves credit for sending multiple teams to the playoffs, but with the largest conference membership in the FCS, you could also say that they should be sending more teams to the playoffs every year, and then turn around and ask the equally fair question, "With so many teams in the conference and making it to the playoffs, why hasn't the CAA won more national championships?"

Mixed up the years. The gold trophy from 2001 is in Missoula.

[Native]

Mixed up the years. The gold trophy from 2001 is in Missoula.

:o I will fix it. Thanks.

[Native]

...
Looking at the playoffs certainly judges the top tiers of each conference. But if you are going to judge conference strength I would think you would want to judge the entire conference. To compare the CAA and BSC, you should compare the strength of both Villanova and Montana, but also compare the strength of Idaho St and Rhode Island. The best way to do this is to look at all out of conference games. The playoffs are certainly a great way to get OOC games from top programs, but should not be a stand alone judge. ...?

Well said! xthumbsupx

[Native]

Prior to UMass winning the title in '98, the CAA/A10 (other than Delaware) was not much of a factor in the FCS/I-AA playoffs. However since 1998 the CAA/A10 has won four titles (UMass, UD, JMU, UR) and also had two runners up (UMass, UD). That is very comparable to the SoCon, who during that same time frame has had five champs (ASU,3 - GSU,2) and also two runner ups (GSU, FU). If Nova wins tonight, the CAA and SoCon would each have five titles between them, but there is one HUGE difference as the SoCon's five titles were accumulated by just two schools, while the four and maybe five CAA titles will have been won by four or five different teams. That is a fact that speaks directly to a leagues's overall strength and in my opinion, pushes the CAA to the top of the FCS pile. In addition, over that same time frame ('98-'09), in head to head playoff competiton, the CAA/A10 holds a narrow 13-12 advantage over the SoCon. So it's seems pretty apparent to me that over the last twelve years the CAA/A10 and the SoCon have had very similar playoff results vs the FCS and each other. The SoCon obviously had the advantage in the early part on those past twelve seasons, while the CAA has really come on strong over the later part of those same years.

Excellent points, xthumbsupx but when you count the numbers at the top, you must also count the numbers at the bottom. CAA conference membership is a third greater than SOCON's.

And while we're at the job of expanding the time frame for comparisons, would you like to go back even further to when Boise State, Nevada and Idaho successfully competed for championships? xeyebrowx

[SpidersSportsEditor]

Georgia Southern won the National Championship in 2000, Furman was the runner-up in 2001 (edits). Four different SOCON teams reached the semifinals a total of 11 times in the past decade. ...and this from a much smaller conference than the CAA. Get the facts straight.

This year the CAA has been dominant, but over the course of the entire decade, some of your criticism of the SOCON can also be made about the CAA: "...no one is a perennial game winner in the playoffs..."



It's a fair question to ask. In this decade your criticism may be valid for the Big Sky, since no team besides Montana has made it to the semifinals. But your criticism rings hollow with the SOCON, which has sent four different teams to the semis despite being a much smaller conference.

There is no question that the CAA deserves credit for sending multiple teams to the playoffs, but with the largest conference membership in the FCS, we should expect the CAA to do so.

We should also ask the equally fair question, "With so many teams in the conference and making it to the playoffs, why hasn't the CAA won more national championships?"

I'm not really qualified to enter this discussion when talking about the entire decade because I just started following the FCS 3 years ago, but I think questioning the CAA for championships won is a little bit unfair.

First off, 3 CAA teams have won the title since 2001, and it's been three different teams, which shows the balance and depth of the conference. If Nova wins tonight, that makes 4 different CAA teams winning the title this decade, and that's pretty damn impressive.

Also, Delaware and UMass were in the title games in '06 and '07 and lost to App. State and a guy named Armanti Edwards. Not very many teams in any conference have been able to beat him, and no one beat him in Chatty, so if you take away that one player from the SoCon, the CAA could have 2 more titles and the SoCon could have 2 fewer. Obviously the Apps still could have won without Edwards, but I feel like there's pretty much a consensus that the kid was just a freak for FCS football and the biggest reason for Apps success.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why any conference is actually BETTER than the CAA and not simply "as good as" the CAA. The number of teams in each conference shouldn't matter as much as the number of good teams in a conference. The CAA has consistently had more good teams in it than any other conference in the last 10 years, so I think you have to give it the nod.

[Duke Dawg]

FCS schools beat FBS schools only 4 times this year.

And all 4 of those wins came from one conference.

Guess which? I'll give you a hint:

CA_

[Crackgina]

The number of teams in a conference most assuredly does matter. If the Big Sky had more members then they would have more teams that could excel. The CAA garners more national attention and that leads to better seading in the playoffs. I would like someone from the CAA to argue that getting a higher seeding and home games does not improve your chances in the playoffs. I know it has helped the Griz as it does EVERY OTHER TEAM. The "regionalization" also helps the CAA because they don't have to travel as far. Travel wears you out and the West teams have to do way more of it than the East teams ever do.

[SpidersSportsEditor]

The number of teams in a conference most assuredly does matter. If the Big Sky had more members then they would have more teams that could excel. The CAA garners more national attention and that leads to better seading in the playoffs. I would like someone from the CAA to argue that getting a higher seeding and home games does not improve your chances in the playoffs. I know it has helped the Griz as it does EVERY OTHER TEAM. The "regionalization" also helps the CAA because they don't have to travel as far. Travel wears you out and the West teams have to do way more of it than the East teams ever do.

The regionalization hurts the CAA because they don't get to play the softies from the Big Sky, they have to play each other (and App State). And as far as seeding is concerned, Montana proved this year that going undefeated in a weaker conference earns you a higher seed than going 10-1 in the strongest conference in FCS football, so the argument that the CAA gets seeding benefits is just plain wrong.

[Crackgina]

Wrong as usual. There are plenty of softies on the east coast and your beloved CAA played them in the first round. Secondly, you don't even know how tough cross country travel is on a team. Thirdly, seedings are based a lot on OPINION polls and those almost universally favor the east coast. We play tough teams, we beat great teams in the playoffs and still you try to skirt logic. That's sad.

[JMUNJ08]

Georgia Southern won the National Championship in 2000, Furman was the runner-up in 2001 (edits). Four different SOCON teams reached the semifinals a total of 11 times in the past decade. ...and this from a much smaller conference than the CAA. Get the facts straight.

This year the CAA has been dominant, but over the course of the entire decade, some of your criticism of the SOCON can also be made about the CAA: "...no one is a perennial game winner in the playoffs..."



It's a fair question to ask. In this decade your criticism may be valid for the Big Sky, since no team besides Montana has made it to the semifinals. But your criticism rings hollow with the SOCON, which has sent four different teams to the semis despite being a much smaller conference.

There is no question that the CAA deserves credit for sending multiple teams to the playoffs, but with the largest conference membership in the FCS, we should expect the CAA to do so.

We should also ask the equally fair question, "With so many teams in the conference and making it to the playoffs, why hasn't the CAA won more national championships?"

Who's the 4th SoCon team?xeyebrowx

I see App St. Furman & GoSo?

[JMUNJ08]

Excellent points, xthumbsupx but when you count the numbers at the top, you must also count the numbers at the bottom. CAA conference membership is a third greater than SOCON's.

And while we're at the job of expanding the time frame for comparisons, would you like to go back even further to when Boise State, Nevada and Idaho successfully competed for championships? xeyebrowx

I don't think you can as those teams are no longer in the conference. If Nova, UNH & UR left the CAA, would you still consider them apart of the CAA's strength?

[GannonFan]

Georgia Southern won the National Championship in 2000, Furman was the runner-up in 2001 (edits). Four different SOCON teams reached the semifinals a total of 11 times in the past decade. ...and this from a much smaller conference than the CAA. Get the facts straight.

This year the CAA has been dominant, but over the course of the entire decade, some of your criticism of the SOCON can also be made about the CAA: "...no one is a perennial game winner in the playoffs..."



It's a fair question to ask. In this decade your criticism may be valid for the Big Sky, since no team besides Montana has made it to the semifinals. But your criticism rings hollow with the SOCON, which has sent four different teams to the semis despite being a much smaller conference.

There is no question that the CAA deserves credit for sending multiple teams to the playoffs, but with the largest conference membership in the FCS, we should expect the CAA to do so.

We should also ask the equally fair question, "With so many teams in the conference and making it to the playoffs, why hasn't the CAA won more national championships?"

The only thing stopping the SoCon from being the best conference in the decade is that the rest of the conference has dropped off significantly in the latter half of this decade. Since 2005, only one team, Wofford, has even won a playoff game, and that was in '07 and Wofford promptly lost a home playoff game in the next round. The SoCon used to be the Big 3 when GSU and Furman were good at the early part of the decade. But since GSU started their coaching carousel and Furman just declined, the SoCon has not been a great conference in the second half of this decade as Appy St has been the only national power coming from there.

The CAA has clearly been the best conference in the second half of the decade (as the SoCon was in the first half) and the CAA wasn't as limited in the first half as the SoCon has been in the second.

I say call it even - the SoCon and CAA have clearly been better than anyone else.

[GannonFan]

The number of teams in a conference most assuredly does matter. If the Big Sky had more members then they would have more teams that could excel. The CAA garners more national attention and that leads to better seading in the playoffs. I would like someone from the CAA to argue that getting a higher seeding and home games does not improve your chances in the playoffs. I know it has helped the Griz as it does EVERY OTHER TEAM. The "regionalization" also helps the CAA because they don't have to travel as far. Travel wears you out and the West teams have to do way more of it than the East teams ever do.


Wrong as usual. There are plenty of softies on the east coast and your beloved CAA played them in the first round. Secondly, you don't even know how tough cross country travel is on a team. Thirdly, seedings are based a lot on OPINION polls and those almost universally favor the east coast. We play tough teams, we beat great teams in the playoffs and still you try to skirt logic. That's sad.

Then why is that the CAA often ends up playing so many road games in the playoffs? Only UD in 2003 and nova this year played all 3 rounds of the playoffs at home. Most other successful CAA playoff teams this decade have had to win multiple games on the road. JMU in 2004 won every game on the road when they won the title, UMass had to win in Missoula in '06 to make the title game, UD won at UNI and at SIU in '07 before the title game, and Richmond won at Appy St and at UNI before they won the title last year. And New Hampshire was only home in 2005 - every year other than that since 2004 they've had to go on the road for every round.

And seriously, complaining about seeding? When has Montana not gotten a seed? To be in the playoffs all these years in a row and only have to play 2 road games this entire decade it seems rather odd to be complaining about seedings.

[SpidersSportsEditor]

Wrong as usual. There are plenty of softies on the east coast and your beloved CAA played them in the first round. Secondly, you don't even know how tough cross country travel is on a team. Thirdly, seedings are based a lot on OPINION polls and those almost universally favor the east coast. We play tough teams, we beat great teams in the playoffs and still you try to skirt logic. That's sad.

Yes, but the softies on the east coast don't make the playoffs because they go 5-6 in the regular season against good teams every week. Weber got their shot at a CAA team, they got crushed. SIU got their shot at a CAA team at home, they got crushed. Other than Appy winning in the last 10 seconds at Richmond, CAA teams have only lost to other CAA teams during this playoffs. And GannonFan's post makes the rest of the points I would have made.

[msusig]

The national championship thread was getting clogged with a conference strength pissing contest, hence a new thread devoted to strength of conference.

I am only interested in "...No smack. Low noise, reasoned opinions..." as the charter of this blog space sets forth. Otherwise, Henzone and others can start their own BS thread on the smack board where it belongs.

Strength of conference is an important FCS issue because it impacts playoff seedings and how at-large teams are selected to participate in the playoffs. So a reasoned discussion of conference strength is appropriate for the FCS Discussion board.

To begin, I congratulate Montana and Villanova for making it to the title game, to the CAA and BSC conferences for sending them, and to every team which made it to the playoffs this year, as well as their conferences. xthumbsupx

How do we measure strength of conference? One way is post season performance. Here is a starting thought for this year's FCS strength of conference discussion:

The CAA sent four teams to the playoffs, each of which won their first round, and three of which made it all the way to the semifinals. Colonial stands 7-3 (70%) in the post season so far, with Villanova playing in the national championship game. Wow! xthumbsupx This is a singular conference accomplishment! Even if Montana wins the NC game, the Big Sky will barely edge out the CAA in post season playoff winning percentage, 66.7% to 63.7% Well played! xthumbsupx

The Big Sky sent three teams this year. Eastern Washington and Weber State bowed out in the first round, but the conference stands 3-2 (60%) in the post season due to Montana's thus far undefeated drive all the way to the national championship game. xthumbsupx

SOCON sent two representatives. Elon went out in the first round, but perennial power Appalachian State made a hell of a run, losing to Montana in the semifinals by a single touchdown, but lifting the conference post season record to 2-2 (50%). xthumbsupx

The Missouri Valley looked to be on fire, but UNI choked in the last game of the regular season to restrict the conference to only South Dakota State and Southern Illinois in the playoffs. Their collective record was 1-2 (33%).

Southland also sent two, McNeese and Stephen F. Austin, but like the MVFC, no one made it past the second round, the end result was also 1-2 (33%).

The Patriot, MEAC and Ohio Valley each sent their autobid representatives, but each lost in the first round.

Based on 2009 post season performances, going into the national championship game, the FCS conferences would seem to rank:

1. CAA
2. BSC
3. SOCON
4. (tied) MVFC and Southland
6. (tied) OVC, MEAC, Patriot

If Montana wins, then the Big Sky will have a better post season winning percentage than any other conference, but that will not detract from the CAA's incredible multiple team peformance.


1. Southland Conference
2. SOCON
3. Big Sky
4. CAA
5. Everybody Else.
Worst Conference: SWAC
xpeacex

[JMUNJ08]

1. Southland Conference
2. SOCON
3. Big Sky
4. CAA
5. Everybody Else.
Worst Conference: SWAC
xpeacex

xbowxxbowxxbowxxbowxxbowx

I was waiting for an honest post from someone!xthumbsupx

[Big Al]

Prior to UMass winning the title in '98, the CAA/A10 (other than Delaware) was not much of a factor in the FCS/I-AA playoffs. However since 1998 the CAA/A10 has won four titles (UMass, UD, JMU, UR) and also had two runners up (UMass, UD). That is very comparable to the SoCon, who during that same time frame has had five champs (ASU,3 - GSU,2) and also two runner ups (GSU, FU). If Nova wins tonight, the CAA and SoCon would each have five titles between them, but there is one HUGE difference as the SoCon's five titles were accumulated by just two schools, while the four and maybe five CAA titles will have been won by four or five different teams. That is a fact that speaks directly to a leagues's overall strength and in my opinion, pushes the CAA to the top of the FCS pile. In addition, over that same time frame ('98-'09), in head to head playoff competiton, the CAA/A10 holds a narrow 13-12 advantage over the SoCon. So it's seems pretty apparent to me that over the last twelve years the CAA/A10 and the SoCon have had very similar playoff results vs the FCS and each other. The SoCon obviously had the advantage in the early part on those past twelve seasons, while the CAA has really come on strong over the later part of those same years.

All excellent points. What remains unsaid, however, is the CAA's strength is not out of proportion to the top of the other conferences. Rather, the strength of the CAA lies in the fact that they have more balance than the SoCon, MVFC & Big Sky, which tend to be top-heavy.

[blueballs]

Who's the 4th SoCon team?xeyebrowx

I see App St. Furman & GoSo?

Wofford in 2003...

[UncleSam]

To be in the playoffs all these years in a row and only have to play 2 road games this entire decade it seems rather odd to be complaining about seedings.

Only TWO playoff games away from Missoula, wow that IS what you call a home field advantage. xeekx

[GannonFan]

Wofford in 2003...

Which was actually a great team - if not for the 2003 UD team, perhaps one of the best FCS/I-AA teams ever, Wofford would've won the title in '03. Shame that Wofford wasn't really able to stay at that level - good win in the first round in '07 but they've not stayed at that level for most of the decade.

[GannonFan]

Only TWO playoff games away from Missoula, wow that IS what you call a home field advantage. xeekx

Appy St's only had 5 road games in this decade as well (Appy's been 2-3 on the road in this decade while Montana went 1-1). At least with Montana, they don't get an overwhelming home field advantage at the "neutral" Chattanooga site like Appy St does due to its proximity. Not quite the advantage that Marshall got in the early '90's, or even that GSU got with home championship games in the late 80's, but an advantage nonetheless.

[caribbeanhen]

Five years is also a reasonable time frame for comparison, but by narrowing the window from ten years to five years, the CAA would lose two of its three national championships over the past decade versus SOCON losing only one. Thus from 2005 through 2009 the SOCON still blows away the competition and remains the #1 FCS conference by virtue of App State's three national titles.

App St is not really an accurate barometer for the entire Southern Conf though

[caribbeanhen]

[QUOTE=appstate1998;1499430]..but how can you really say the conference is stronger because you had 4 good teams and 8 really bad. [/QUOTE_

8 really bad? what is your definition of bad? sure RI and NE were bad, Delaware and JMU were both in the Saragin top 20 (despite 5 losses)

[bostonspider]

I think it is that very balance, that shows the incredible strength of the conference. If Villanova can pull of the win tonight, that will be 4 titles by 4 different teams in the last 7 years. Plus another team making the finals. So in 7 seasons, 5 DIFFERENT CAA teams made the finals. And in those 7 years, 6 teams made the semifinals (half the conference). In the last decade 10 of the 12 teams (83%) have made the playoffs, including now departed Northeastern and Hofstra. That depth, combined with actual playoff success and titles, is why I think the CAA is now the strongest FCS Conference.

[GoneTribal]

[QUOTE=appstate1998;1499430]..but how can you really say the conference is stronger because you had 4 good teams and 8 really bad. [/QUOTE_

8 really bad? what is your definition of bad? sure RI and NE were bad, Delaware and JMU were both in the Saragin top 20 (despite 5 losses)

You beat me to it carribean.

Just because a team doesn't make the playoffs doesn't make them a bad team. The only teams that I considered "bad" in the CAA this year were URI, NE, & Towson. I think all other teams that didn't make the playoffs were pretty good teams.

----------------------------------------

While the initial discussion revolved soley around "playoff" performance, it certainly doesn't reflect the strength of the entire conference. I think these are two totally different discussions. Mathematically, the strongest playoff conference picture could be a little more solid if you weight OOC games a little more than in conf. games. And also use a weighting system for home vs away.

As to the overall conference strength, that's too much work. xlolx

[JMUNJ08]

Wofford in 2003...

Semi-finals right? Cuz the finals were UD vs. Colgate?

Edit: I saw the other posts...

[Big Al]

Yes, but the softies on the east coast don't make the playoffs because they go 5-6 in the regular season against good teams every week. Weber got their shot at a CAA team, they got crushed. SIU got their shot at a CAA team at home, they got crushed. Other than Appy winning in the last 10 seconds at Richmond, CAA teams have only lost to other CAA teams during this playoffs. And GannonFan's post makes the rest of the points I would have made.

Who does the CAA play for their regular-season OOC games? Big South, NEC & Patriot? While I would not call any of those conferences awful, they rarely have the strength to compete against the top of other conferences. Regular season games against the MVFC and Big Sky are rarer than hen's teeth, so the only comparison you will have is playoff games.

[Big Al]

It would be interesting to see average scores for wins vs. average scores for losses for every conference, as well.

People like to bag on the MEAC, but the reality is they've gone into App State for the first round and acquitted themselves very well over the past two years. It would be interesting to see them paired up against different teams in the playoffs.

Regionality sucks.

[UncleSam]

Who does the CAA play for their regular-season OOC games? Big South, NEC & Patriot? .

and in 2009, these guys

Navy
Army
UConn
Boston College
Kansas St
Temple
Duke
Virginia
Ball St
Northwestern
Maryland
Western Michigan

[Crackgina]

Spidersportseditor: CAA team with a #1 seed lost at home to a Griz team that had to travel so CAA doesn't ONLY lose to CAA teams in the playoffs as stated earlier. When you guys talk about "road" games you have no idea what that means. Only a couple CAA teams have actually had to go any distance at all for what you guys call a road game. If you really are an editor then your selective memory goes a long way towards explaining east coast bias in polling. :)

[JMUNJ08]

and in 2009, these guys

Navy
Army
UConn
Boston College
Kansas St
Temple
Duke
Virginia
Ball St
Northwestern
Maryland
Western Michigan

4-8 with and OT and a td or less loss. Not too shabby xthumbsupx

We'll take all those DII games some of your teams get too!

[JMUNJ08]

Spidersportseditor: CAA team with a #1 seed lost at home to a Griz team that had to travel so CAA doesn't ONLY lose to CAA teams in the playoffs as stated earlier. When you guys talk about "road" games you have no idea what that means. Only a couple CAA teams have actually had to go any distance at all for what you guys call a road game. If you really are an editor then your selective memory goes a long way towards explaining east coast bias in polling. :)

He meant this yearxcoffeex

If regionality wasn't in play, things would be different. Not our fault UM is in the middle of nowhere...xwhistlex

[Crackgina]

UM isn't in the middle of nowhere, your cruddy side of the US isn't fit to live in. Who wants to be jammed on top of a bunch of bitter east coasters fighting to be someone important? You guys have no idea how bad your standard of living is compared to ours and I hope you never figure it out. :) Are you still bitter about last year? Further, how do you know what the Spidersportseditor meant? Do you guys all talk?

[GannonFan]

Then why is that the CAA often ends up playing so many road games in the playoffs? Only UD in 2003 and nova this year played all 3 rounds of the playoffs at home. Most other successful CAA playoff teams this decade have had to win multiple games on the road. JMU in 2004 won every game on the road when they won the title, UMass had to win in Missoula in '06 to make the title game, UD won at UNI and at SIU in '07 before the title game, and Richmond won at Appy St and at UNI before they won the title last year. And New Hampshire was only home in 2005 - every year other than that since 2004 they've had to go on the road for every round.

And seriously, complaining about seeding? When has Montana not gotten a seed? To be in the playoffs all these years in a row and only have to play 2 road games this entire decade it seems rather odd to be complaining about seedings.


Spidersportseditor: CAA team with a #1 seed lost at home to a Griz team that had to travel so CAA doesn't ONLY lose to CAA teams in the playoffs as stated earlier. When you guys talk about "road" games you have no idea what that means. Only a couple CAA teams have actually had to go any distance at all for what you guys call a road game. If you really are an editor then your selective memory goes a long way towards explaining east coast bias in polling. :)

Come on man, you got to stop it with the "the CAA doesn't know what a real road game is" stuff. How many times has UNH had to travel to UNI this decade to play them in the playoffs? Is suddenly travelling from the East Coast to Cedar Falls, Iowa not a real road game? UNH's done it twice, Maine once, UD once, Richmond once. UD went to SIU as well, JMU went to Furman, Lehigh, and W&M, Richmond went to Appy St - how are these not "real" road games? Heck, UD was snowed in for two days in Cedar Falls after their game there and still had to go on the road to Carbondale, IL when they won the following week.

[GannonFan]

UM isn't in the middle of nowhere, your cruddy side of the US isn't fit to live in. Who wants to be jammed on top of a bunch of bitter east coasters fighting to be someone important? You guys have no idea how bad your standard of living is compared to ours and I hope you never figure it out. :)

So all your arguments are just based on your obvious bias against the Eastern part of the country? xrolleyesx

[GoneTribal]

UM isn't in the middle of nowhere, your cruddy side of the US isn't fit to live in. Who wants to be jammed on top of a bunch of bitter east coasters fighting to be someone important? You guys have no idea how bad your standard of living is compared to ours and I hope you never figure it out. :)

wow, this sounds like a "my dad can beat up your dad" type statement. To each his own I guess...and may you never figure out what trying to be important is all about. xlolx

[Crackgina]

When you cross the entire continent for two road games in two weeks like we had to last year then we will talk about equivalent "road" travel. If you ever have you know what I am talking about. And our O-Line averaged 6'7" last year. Try that in a regular airplane seat for that far in two weeks. Oh, and play a tough game in between against JMU at their house.

[caribbeanhen]

UM isn't in the middle of nowhere, your cruddy side of the US isn't fit to live in. Who wants to be jammed on top of a bunch of bitter east coasters fighting to be someone important? You guys have no idea how bad your standard of living is compared to ours and I hope you never figure it out. :) Are you still bitter about last year? Further, how do you know what the Spidersportseditor meant? Do you guys all talk?

your post take on the personality of a bitter east coast guy! Welcome aboardxlolx

[GannonFan]

When you cross the entire continent for two road games in two weeks like we had to last year then we will talk about equivalent "road" travel. If you ever have you know what I am talking about. And our O-Line averaged 6'7" last year. Try that in a regular airplane seat for that far in two weeks. Oh, and play a tough game in between against JMU at their house.


And again - UD went from Delaware to play Northern Iowa in '07, got snowed in for two days after the game and had to leave on Monday, then got back on a plane on Friday to play Southern Illinois on Saturday, winning again, before returning home on Sunday to leave on a plane on Wednesday for the national title game.

You make it sound like no one on the East Coast rides on planes, which obviously is not true.

And seriously, last year was only the second road playoff game Montana played this entire decade - kinda amazing to have this much complaining over one road trip every 5 years.

[blukeys]

UM isn't in the middle of nowhere, your cruddy side of the US isn't fit to live in. Who wants to be jammed on top of a bunch of bitter east coasters fighting to be someone important? You guys have no idea how bad your standard of living is compared to ours and I hope you never figure it out. :) Are you still bitter about last year? Further, how do you know what the Spidersportseditor meant? Do you guys all talk?

So much for "...No smack. Low noise, reasoned opinions..." xcoffeex

[Native]

I'm not really qualified to enter this discussion when talking about the entire decade because I just started following the FCS 3 years ago, but I think questioning the CAA for championships won is a little bit unfair.

First off, 3 CAA teams have won the title since 2001, and it's been three different teams, which shows the balance and depth of the conference. If Nova wins tonight, that makes 4 different CAA teams winning the title this decade, and that's pretty damn impressive.

Also, Delaware and UMass were in the title games in '06 and '07 and lost to App. State and a guy named Armanti Edwards. Not very many teams in any conference have been able to beat him, and no one beat him in Chatty, so if you take away that one player from the SoCon, the CAA could have 2 more titles and the SoCon could have 2 fewer. Obviously the Apps still could have won without Edwards, but I feel like there's pretty much a consensus that the kid was just a freak for FCS football and the biggest reason for Apps success.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why any conference is actually BETTER than the CAA and not simply "as good as" the CAA. The number of teams in each conference shouldn't matter as much as the number of good teams in a conference. The CAA has consistently had more good teams in it than any other conference in the last 10 years, so I think you have to give it the nod.

The CAA is a great and powerful conference with much to be proud of over a sustained period of time. But if you "have yet to hear a convincing argument for why any conference is actually BETTER than the CAA," you simply have not been paying attention or considering the entire body of facts for the decade.

The argument attacking Armanti and Appalachian State makes the CAA and it fans look whiny and weak. Champions do not make excuses. Woulda coulda shoulda is for losers. Take well deserved credit for the many CAA accomplishments but don't make things up to exaggerate accomplishments beyond what the facts justify.

Here are some facts for your consideration:

Over the past decade,
1. SOCON has won more national championships (FOUR) than any other conference. CAA has a chance to tie this weekend. Edge to SOCON.
2. SOCON has the highest playoff winning percentage (66%) of any conference. CAA is second at 61%. If Villanova wins tonight the CAA will improve to 61.5% but remain in second place. Edge to SOCON.
3. In head-to-head playoff match ups between SOCON and CAA teams, the conferences are apparently tied at nine wins each.* Still crunching the numbers to make sure. Push.
4. SOCON has won both head-to-head national championship games. Edge to SOCON.
5. CAA has sent eleven of its twelve teams to the playoffs (91.7%)* versus five of nine for SOCON (55.6%). Edge to CAA. Maybe the most impressive aspect of the CAA! xthumbsupx
6. Six of twelve CAA teams have made it to the semifinals (50%) versus four of nine for the SOCON (44.4%). Edge to CAA.


*These are corrections from some of my previous posts. Please hold me accountable for errors - your corrections are appreciated.

[Native]

and in 2009, these guys

Navy
Army
UConn
Boston College
Kansas St
Temple
Duke
Virginia
Ball St
Northwestern
Maryland
Western Michigan

This year was indeed a spectacular year for the CAA. The OOC wins were particularly impressive.

[Native]

App St is not really an accurate barometer for the entire Southern Conf though

Lots of things for CAA to brag about. Why make the CAA conference and fans look weak by attacking App? xeyebrowx

[Native]

Prior to UMass winning the title in '98, the CAA/A10 (other than Delaware) was not much of a factor in the FCS/I-AA playoffs. However since 1998 the CAA/A10 has won four titles (UMass, UD, JMU, UR) and also had two runners up (UMass, UD). That is very comparable to the SoCon, who during that same time frame has had five champs (ASU,3 - GSU,2) and also two runner ups (GSU, FU). If Nova wins tonight, the CAA and SoCon would each have five titles between them, but there is one HUGE difference as the SoCon's five titles were accumulated by just two schools, while the four and maybe five CAA titles will have been won by four or five different teams. That is a fact that speaks directly to a leagues's overall strength and in my opinion, pushes the CAA to the top of the FCS pile. In addition, over that same time frame ('98-'09), in head to head playoff competiton, the CAA/A10 holds a narrow 13-12 advantage over the SoCon. So it's seems pretty apparent to me that over the last twelve years the CAA/A10 and the SoCon have had very similar playoff results vs the FCS and each other. The SoCon obviously had the advantage in the early part on those past twelve seasons, while the CAA has really come on strong over the later part of those same years.

Well said, Sam! xthumbsupx

[caribbeanhen]

The CAA is a great and powerful conference with much to be proud of over a sustained period of time. But if you "have yet to hear a convincing argument for why any conference is actually BETTER than the CAA," you simply have not been paying attention or considering the entire body of facts for the decade.

The argument attacking Armanti and Appalachian State makes the CAA and it fans look whiny and weak. Champions do not make excuses. Woulda coulda shoulda is for losers. Take well deserved credit for the many CAA accomplishments but don't make things up to exaggerate accomplishments beyond what the facts justify.

Here are some facts for your consideration:

Over the past decade,
1. SOCON has won more national championships (FOUR) than any other conference. CAA has a chance to tie this weekend. Edge to SOCON.
2. SOCON has the highest playoff winning percentage (66%) of any conference. CAA is second at 61%. If Villanova wins tonight the CAA will improve to 61.5% but remain in second place. Edge to SOCON.
3. In head-to-head playoff match ups between SOCON and CAA teams, the conferences are apparently tied at nine wins each.* Still crunching the numbers to make sure. Push.
4. SOCON has won both head-to-head national championship games. Edge to SOCON.
5. CAA has sent eleven of its twelve teams to the playoffs (91.7%)* versus five of nine for SOCON (55.6%). Edge to CAA. Maybe the most impressive aspect of the CAA! xthumbsupx
6. Six of twelve CAA teams have made it to the semifinals (50%) versus four of nine for the SOCON (44.4%). Edge to CAA.


*These are corrections from some of my previous posts. Please hold me accountable for errors - your corrections are appreciated.

three of the four won by Armanti Edwards and ASU, I admit I have no formula for factoring in the fallout of the Furmans, GSU's and the Woffords, but basically without AE you would be in the hurt locker

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

When you cross the entire continent for two road games in two weeks like we had to last year then we will talk about equivalent "road" travel. If you ever have you know what I am talking about. And our O-Line averaged 6'7" last year. Try that in a regular airplane seat for that far in two weeks. Oh, and play a tough game in between against JMU at their house.

UNH 2004 @ Georgia Southern @ Montana
2006 @ Hampton @ UMass (Bus)
2007 @ UNI
2008 @ SIU @ UNI
2009 @ McNeese @ Villanova

Road Travel

[SpidersSportsEditor]

three of the four won by Armanti Edwards and ASU, I admit I have no formula for factoring in the fallout of the Furmans, GSU's and the Woffords, but basically without AE you would be in the hurt locker

xthumbsupx That was my exact point. This is a discussion on the strength of the entire conference, not the strength of the one team. You can call it whiny if you want, but the fact is that without App State, the SoCon would not even compare to the CAA. Take out any of the top CAA teams and it's probably still the best conference. But that point has already been made and apparently ignored.

[Walkon79]

I would not gauge conference strength strickly on playoff winning percentage by conference. If you do that you can have a conference that has one good team with everybody else stinking and have that one team go 4-0. I don't know if it's valid to judge overall conference strength just by what happens in the playoffs. But even if we accept that premise, I think there is a need to go to something other than just the winning percentage for the conference.

I mean, when you have a situation where one conference goes 4-0 in the first round and another goes 1-2 that needs to be taken into account even if the one that went 1-2 has one team that wins the rest of its games. That's especially true when the conference that went 4-0 had one of its wins over the one that went 1-2 by 38-0. At least without looking it up I think that's what the score was.

I think if anybody looks at the playoffs this year there's absolutely no question as to which conference looked to be strongest. The CAA only has one playoff loss at this point to a non conference opponent and it as very close. William & Mary absolutely smothered Weber State and Southern Illinois. Looking at this year's playoff and using your God-Given brain should tell anyone that the CAA will have had by far the most impressive playoff performance among the leagues regardless of what happens in the championship game.


Can't argue with the CAA on this point. Clearly a strong overall conference showing in the 2009 playoffs.

[Native]

xthumbsupx That was my exact point. This is a discussion on the strength of the entire conference, not the strength of the one team. You can call it whiny if you want, but the fact is that without App State, the SoCon would not even compare to the CAA. Take out any of the top CAA teams and it's probably still the best conference. But that point has already been made and apparently ignored.

1. Yes, unfortunately whiny, weak, and completely unnecessary, with so many legitimate accomplishments to brag about on behalf of the CAA. Woulda coulda shoulda arguments are unworthy of champions*.

2. The point about multiple strong teams in the CAA has been repeatedly acknowledged and lauded by me and many others. xthumbsupx But it is not the only relevant point in a strength of conference discussion, any more than App's three-peat is the only point. xnonox

* (So are red chicklets, CHF.)

[Crackgina]

UNH Guy: So you agree, you had two (2) road trips just like us. Your trip to MT and McNeese are far enough to qualify as road trips. lol Who really cares? I just want to watch a good game tonight and I was bored at work so I stirred it up a little. :)

[Native]

Looks like we still have a lot of work to do. xeyebrowx

Time out while we enjoy the national championship game. xnodx

Peace on earth and goodwill towards men (and women) to everyone except CBH who gave me one of those cowardly little red chicklets. ... Aw, what the hell! Peace to you, too, Coastie! xpeacex

[JMUNJ08]

5. CAA has sent eleven of its twelve teams to the playoffs (91.7%)* versus five of nine for SOCON (55.6%). Edge to CAA. Maybe the most impressive aspect of the CAA! xthumbsupx

*These are corrections from some of my previous posts. Please hold me accountable for errors - your corrections are appreciated.

I don't think Towson or URI has made itxthumbsupx

And I agree, by basically looking at the number the SoCon may have the CAA overall on top and the CAA and the diversity of success.

App St. hands down beats the entire CAA for the decadexbowxxbowxxbowx

However, by conference, I got my boys xrulesx

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

I don't think Towson or URI has made itxthumbsupx

And I agree, by basically looking at the number the SoCon may have the CAA overall on top and the CAA and the diversity of success.

App St. hands down beats the entire CAA for the decadexbowxxbowxxbowx

However, by conference, I got my boys xrulesx

URI has been to th playoffs

[caribbeanhen]

Who does the CAA play for their regular-season OOC games? Big South, NEC & Patriot? .

Nope, they beat up on the ACCxthumbsupx

[Sam Minuteman]

CAA.


Lock up this thread not much more to debate

[49RFootballNow]

Montana feasted on lesser Big Sky Conference competition. This is the time of year when having a weak conference DOES NOT help you. Nova just proved the point.

[ItsyBitsySpider]

The fat lady is at the podium.

[HenZoneNation]

You can present facts all you want on this thread...they will be twisted and turned and call smack talk or East Coast Bias...that is the fall back.

If you listened to the announcers they told you the tale of the FCS conference this decade. "Villonava was battle tested."

Appy is the team of the decade.
CAA is the conference of the decade.

[KiddBrewer]

i bet ole miss and mizzou arent nearly as happy as all the CAA people that their team won the championship. im a duke fan, and if any other acc team wins the national championship in basketball, im more pissed than anything. if app doesnt win the national championship, i might pull for elon cause i live down the road, but i dont think id be cheering like a mad man for a team that ive most likely criticized when the week we saw them on the schedule ....yall are some dedicated folk

[93henfan]

Appy is the team of the decade.
CAA is the conference of the decade.

Bingo.

[pitpen]

i bet ole miss and mizzou arent nearly as happy as all the CAA people that their team won the championship. im a duke fan, and if any other acc team wins the national championship in basketball, im more pissed than anything. if app doesnt win the national championship, i might pull for elon cause i live down the road, but i dont think id be cheering like a mad man for a team that ive most likely criticized when the week we saw them on the schedule ....yall are some dedicated folk

Why aren't you an App basketball fan?

[Native]

Congrats to the Villanova Wildcats. Great game! Great season! xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

The CAA is the strongest, while the Southland and probably the Patriot have fallen the most over the decade.

[KiddBrewer]

Why aren't you an App basketball fan?

well, i am, i was just throwing in my ties to the ACC to make a broader point. went to over 50 app basketball games during the last 4 years as an appalachian student. just got ties to duke cause my grandfather went there and its been pounded in my head since birthxthumbsupx

[State Line Liquors]

Who does the CAA play for their regular-season OOC games? Big South, NEC & Patriot?

UNH also played St. Francis of PA.

Good one though. xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The CAA is the strongest, while the Southland and probably the Patriot have fallen the most over the decade.

The problem with the PL is having to face the CAA champ every year. I still believe the PL champ is on par with 96% of FCS playing teams. However, the bottom line is their barometer is the CAA and they have continued to fall short.

[DFW HOYA]

From 2001-03, the PL champ was seen as capable of a semifinal or even finals run, and that's almost inconceivable today.

Top to bottom, the PL was better from 2001-2003. And at the bottom, the talent level was better, too.

[pitpen]

well, i am, i was just throwing in my ties to the ACC to make a broader point. went to over 50 app basketball games during the last 4 years as an appalachian student. just got ties to duke cause my grandfather went there and its been pounded in my head since birthxthumbsupx

Just saying UNC and App have done pretty well recently in different sports...

[KiddBrewer]

Just saying UNC and App have done pretty well recently in different sports...

ha and i was cussing and throwing a fit more than anyone when carolina won their championshipsxlolx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

From 2001-03, the PL champ was seen as capable of a semifinal or even finals run, and that's almost inconceivable today.

Top to bottom, the PL was better from 2001-2003. And looking up from the bottom, the talent level was better, too.

The depth isn't like it was back then. Lehigh's 3rd teamers were as good as their starters. The frontline players among the PL best are as good as those in the CAA imo. Depth is the problem. All these schools need is schollies and they'll be competing at the highest level.

Their is no arguing that the PL has weakened. But i don't think it's as drastic as some believe. There's not top 5 teams like Lehigh and Colgate had but the PL is still producing top 20 teams.

[DFW HOYA]

The depth isn't like it was back then. Lehigh's 3rd teamers were as good as their starters. The frontline players among the PL best are as good as those in the CAA imo. Depth is the problem. All these schools need is schollies and they'll be competing at the highest level.

That's not going to help Georgetown.

The Hoyas' lack of depth in 2009 was significant. And 2010 could be worse without some help, which chafes at Georgetown fans who saw the PL as an opportunity for opening, not closing doors for better recruits.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That's not going to help Georgetown. Still, the Hoyas' lack of depth in 2009 was significant. And 2010 could be worse without some help.

You can't help those who refuse to help themselves. The pecking order in the league will not change in the PL if they do go to schollies. Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate will remain the dominant programs because they have the most backing. Others will rise up but not on a consistent basis. That can of course change if everyone steps up to the plate.

[DFW HOYA]

If Bucknell and Georgetown added scholarships tomorrow, it wouldn't matter if they can't recruit and admit better players. The talent pool does not stretch below 3-4 teams at this point, with or without grants.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

If Bucknell and Georgetown added scholarships tomorrow, it wouldn't matter if they can't recruit and admit better players. The talent pool does not stretch below 3-4 teams at this point, with or without grants.

There's a lack of support for the program. Their alums even admit no one cares. Not once have heard the Bison faithful use academics as an excuse. Look for yourself on their board. The thread title had something to do with their HC's house being for sale.

[Husky4Life]

CAA has had 10 of the 12 members reach the playoffs this decade (Northeastern, W&M, Richmond, Maine, UMass, UNH, Maine, Delaware, Hofstra, JMU). Of those teams, all but Northeastern have advanced in the playoffs. After tonight, it's had 4 different teams win National Championships (JMU, Villanova, Delaware & Richmond) , and 6 finals appearances (Delaware twice, JMU, UMass, Villanova, Richmond). Top to bottom, there is no question in my mind, the CAA has been the best conference of the decade.

[SpidersSportsEditor]

CAA has had 10 of the 12 members reach the playoffs this decade (Northeastern, W&M, Richmond, Maine, UMass, UNH, Maine, Delaware, Hofstra, JMU). Of those teams, all but Northeastern have advanced in the playoffs. After tonight, it's had 4 different teams win National Championships (JMU, Villanova, Delaware & Richmond) , and 6 finals appearances (Delaware twice, JMU, UMass, Villanova, Richmond). Top to bottom, there is no question in my mind, the CAA has been the best conference of the decade.

Can we just end this thread now?xlolx

[JohnStOnge]

Can we just end this thread now?xlolx

No, because I want to mention how the CAA being the toughest league is just WRONG. Like last night they were talking about it during the game telecast and Brock Huard said something about the recruiting base. Heck, if being in the best recruiting areas in terms of talent determined which conference was tougher we'd be talking about the Southland or the SWAC being the toughest. The MEAC and the Southern would be tougher than the CAA too.

This shouldn't be happening. It ain't fittin'. It just ain't fittin'.

[93henfan]

No, because I want to mention how the CAA being the toughest league is just WRONG. Like last night they were talking about it during the game telecast and Brock Huard said something about the recruiting base. Heck, if being in the best recruiting areas in terms of talent determined which conference was tougher we'd be talking about the Southland or the SWAC being the toughest. The MEAC and the Southern would be tougher than the CAA too.

This shouldn't be happening. It ain't fittin'. It just ain't fittin'.

North Jersey, Eastern PA, MD suburbs of DC, Tidewater VA...

The CAA footprint has its share of recruiting hotbeds (and I won't even mention Georgia, because we don't know how long Ga St intends to stick around).

[charliej]

North Jersey, Eastern PA, MD suburbs of DC, Tidewater VA...

The CAA footprint has its share of recruiting hotbeds (and I won't even mention Georgia, because we don't know how long Ga St intends to stick around).

Don't sell South Jersey short. Szczur,White,Brannigan all South Jersey products. Along with some good solid players in past years.xnodx

[93henfan]

Don't sell South Jersey short. Szczur,White,Brannigan all South Jersey products. Along with some good solid players in past years.xnodx

To be honest with you, I pretty much consider South Jersey and Delaware to be Eastern PA. :p

[JohnStOnge]

North Jersey, Eastern PA, MD suburbs of DC, Tidewater VA...

The CAA footprint has its share of recruiting hotbeds.

No doubt some. It's not a bad area in terms of talent production. But it's not at same level as the Gulf Coast Region plus Georgia. Like at that 2004 Rivals article I posted before from 2004 the States Texas (3rd), Louisiana (5th), Mississippi (10th), Alabama (13th), Florida (2nd), and Georgia (4th) were all ranked in the top 15 in talent production.

The States that contain the CAA has three States ranked in the top 15 and they're at 7th (Pennsylvania), 11th (Virginia), and 15th (New Jersey). Another way to look at it is that the two States in the Southland footprint listed among the top 15 (Texas and Louisiana) accounted for 255 NFL players at the time while the three States among the top 15 in the CAA footprint had accounted for 152.
Also, the four states among the top 15 that contain Southern Conference teams (Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Alabama) had accounted for 237.

I don't have it at my fingertips but you'd see the same kind of pattern if you look at production of Division I college footall players by states...only Texas would then move into number 1. Also, though the article I've been using is from 2004 things don't change much over the years. I've been following that kind of stuff since the late 80s and it's always the same. Texas, Louisiana, Florida, and Georiga are always among the top 5 or 6 in NFL as well as Division I college player production. Whatever the reason for the CAA's current position as toughest conference, it isn't that it's got the best recruiting area base.

It just kills me...KILLS me...to see a team from a State like New Hampshire come down here and roll a team from a top 5 NFL and college football player producing State that's also near the border with Texas and has both Houston and New Orleans in its recruiting area. It's just not natural. It's perverse. Shouldn't be happening.

[Native]

The fat lady is at the podium.

The fat lady sang well last night!

[Longhorn]

CAA has had 10 of the 12 members reach the playoffs this decade (Northeastern, W&M, Richmond, Maine, UMass, UNH, Maine, Delaware, Hofstra, JMU). Of those teams, all but Northeastern have advanced in the playoffs. After tonight, it's had 4 different teams win National Championships (JMU, Villanova, Delaware & Richmond) , and 6 finals appearances (Delaware twice, JMU, UMass, Villanova, Richmond).

5 NCs. How could you forget Umass' NC in the late 90s? And that makes it 7 finals appearances in the last 11 years.

[Mid-Atlantic]

It just kills me...KILLS me...to see a team from a State like New Hampshire come down here and roll a team from a top 5 NFL and college football player producing State that's also near the border with Texas and has both Houston and New Orleans in its recruiting area. It's just not natural. It's perverse. Shouldn't be happening.

there is also way more schools competing for those recruits in the area though.

won't most talent in the area be poached by SEC Schools, Big 12 Schools, C-USA schools, MWC schools
also you are competing against own subdivision foes in the southland and swac for talent in that area

vs. in the north east where New Hampshire is at

you might have northern ACC schools and the Big East Schools.

I don't buy in that there should be a huge talent gap

[JohnStOnge]

there is also way more schools competing for those recruits in the area though.

won't most talent in the area be poached by SEC Schools, Big 12 Schools, C-USA schools, MWC schools
also you are competing against own subdivision foes in the southland and swac for talent in that area

vs. in the north east where New Hampshire is at

you might have northern ACC schools and the Big East Schools.

I don't buy in that there should be a huge talent gap

Well, I grouse about it but another thing, I think, is that the Southland schools have relatively small budgets and recruit from smaller areas. For instance, though I haven't done 2009, McNeese's 2008 roster only had one player on it from more than 205 miles away. All the players but one were from Southeast Texas or Louisiana. The one player that was not and also the one who was from more than 205 miles was from Mississippi. Half the players were from less than 80 miles away.

Took a quick look at the 2009 roster and, since the guy from Mississippi graduated, it looks like all of the players were from Southeast Texas or Louisiana. At first glance it looks like the player home town farthest from McNeese is Slidell, Louisiana. That's the 205 mile distance.

I still think the Southland Schools should be able to do better than they've done recently though. I mean, heck, compare them to the MVC schools in the midwest. You've got the Big 12, the Big 10, and the MAC up there. The MAC in particular is a large league and draws the kinds of players that otherwise would be FCS. CUSA edges up there too. While the MVC hasn't been quite with the CAA it's been right up there and nationally competetive most years. Northern Iowa and Southern Illinois, for example, certainly shouldn't have access to more FCS level talent than any of the Southland schools do.

[Husky4Life]

5 NCs. How could you forget Umass' NC in the late 90s? And that makes it 7 finals appearances in the last 11 years.

Oh I remember it well. I was just talking about the 2000s That was a little before the A10/CAA started to really take off.

[Tribe4SF]

Well, I grouse about it but another thing, I think, is that the Southland schools have relatively small budgets and recruit from smaller areas. For instance, though I haven't done 2009, McNeese's 2008 roster only had one player on it from more than 205 miles away. All the players but one were from Southeast Texas or Louisiana. The one player that was not and also the one who was from more than 205 miles was from Mississippi. Half the players were from less than 80 miles away.

Took a quick look at the 2009 roster and, since the guy from Mississippi graduated, it looks like all of the players were from Southeast Texas or Louisiana. At first glance it looks like the player home town farthest from McNeese is Slidell, Louisiana. That's the 205 mile distance.

I still think the Southland Schools should be able to do better than they've done recently though. I mean, heck, compare them to the MVC schools in the midwest. You've got the Big 12, the Big 10, and the MAC up there. The MAC in particular is a large league and draws the kinds of players that otherwise would be FCS. CUSA edges up there too. While the MVC hasn't been quite with the CAA it's been right up there and nationally competetive most years. Northern Iowa and Southern Illinois, for example, certainly shouldn't have access to more FCS level talent than any of the Southland schools do.

I think you've nailed a primary reason. W&M's roster, while heavy on the Mid-Atlantic, features many players from the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Ohio and New England. Half the starters on the 2009 team came from distances farther than that 205 mile McNeese boundary. Villanova and New Hampshire have had success over the years with California recruits. I remember SHSU's roster from their 2004 team being comprised entirely by players from Texas.

[aust42]

To be honest with you, I pretty much consider South Jersey and Delaware to be Eastern PA. :p

As a former South Jersian I still refer to the Delaware/South Jersey/Philly area as the "Debellaware Valley" as 93.3 WMMR Rock DJ John Debella used to classify the area back in the day.

[ThompsonThe]

Appy St's only had 5 road games in this decade as well (Appy's been 2-3 on the road in this decade while Montana went 1-1). At least with Montana, they don't get an overwhelming home field advantage at the "neutral" Chattanooga site like Appy St does due to its proximity. Not quite the advantage that Marshall got in the early '90's, or even that GSU got with home championship games in the late 80's, but an advantage nonetheless.

Your facts appear to be way off. I can think of at least four Appalachian playoff road wins off the top of my head. You state that they were 2-3 on the road.

[GannonFan]

Your facts appear to be way off. I can think of at least four Appalachian playoff road wins off the top of my head. You state that they were 2-3 on the road.

Since 2000 I see at Troy St in 2000 and Richmond this year. What other road Appy St playoff wins since 2000 am I missing?

[Saint3333]

2000 - 3 road games, Troy, WKU, Montana 2-1, lost by 7 to Montana
2001- 1, GSU, lost by 14
2009 - 2, 1-1, lost to Montana by 7

This decade ASU is 3-3 on the road in the playoffs, on a neutral field ASU is 3-0, but of course our UD friends know this first hand.

.500 on the road in the playoffs is well above average.

[Zangzigger]

From top to bottom, the CAA is extremely impressive

[GannonFan]

2000 - 3 road games, Troy, WKU, Montana 2-1, lost by 7 to Montana
2001- 1, GSU, lost by 14
2009 - 2, 1-1, lost to Montana by 7

This decade ASU is 3-3 on the road in the playoffs, on a neutral field ASU is 3-0, but of course our UD friends know this first hand.

.500 on the road in the playoffs is well above average.

Sorry about the WKU game - I was using this site http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php/2009/11/17/division-i-football-championship-playoff?blog=5 for my data and they incorrectly show the 2000 Appy St game against WKU as being played in Boone.

As for the 3-0 record on a neutral field, really? I don't recall Appy St playing any neutral field games this decade in the playoffs. ;)

[Big Al]

I think you've nailed a primary reason. W&M's roster, while heavy on the Mid-Atlantic, features many players from the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Ohio and New England. Half the starters on the 2009 team came from distances farther than that 205 mile McNeese boundary. Villanova and New Hampshire have had success over the years with California recruits. I remember SHSU's roster from their 2004 team being comprised entirely by players from Texas.

While Northern Iowa is primarily kids from Iowa, Minnesota and Missouri, we also seem to have a pipeline in Florida.

[Doc QB]

Native, not sure I am the overly exuberant one, just one post on whole thread. And your follow-up to my lone post called my comments criticisms...far from criticims at all. Just a few facts and perceptions. True, your follow-up reply shows 3 SOCON teams in this decade making playoff noise, getting into semi's....given last weekend game, CAA is now five.

So, I still stand by mutiple, different conference members getting into semi's, winning NCs, multiple teams beating FBS teams. Someone posted a larger conference should be expected to have more success? Why the heck is that? Why are they not prone to more poorness? That reasoning makes no sense.

Take out Appys awesome run and you have a NC with GSU and some excellent Furman teams. Take out GSU or Furman, and you still have a two team show in SOCON. C'mon, as stupid as this argument is you can't ignore multiple NC winners now. Maybe I should criticize something, myself for indugling in this retarded debate...we should applaud that we have so many good match-ups and a place to showcase them after the season.