Is the Patriot League holding its long-awaited meeting this week?

[Go...gate]

Just wondering. It could be very interesting.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL's Council of Presidents meets Dec. 7-8.

No guarantee that it gets decided, of course.

[RichH2]

Lit a candle for luck. We'll se if they do anything at all.

[Pards Rule]

Waiting for the smoke...

[MDFAN]

white smoke is schollies grey smoke is none?

[Ken_Z]

No guarantee that it gets decided, of course.


i assume that is the odds on favorite given our fine leaders demonstrated ability to defer under pressure.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

i assume that is the odds on favorite given our fine leaders demonstrated ability to defer under pressure.

Depends. How close was Fordham to leaving? While I would think that the real prospect of Fordham going to the CAA would scare the PL presidents, you are correct that with Hofstra dropping there seems to be an easy out for the presidents if they just don't want to decide.

[Fordham]

Depends. How close was Fordham to leaving? While I would think that the real prospect of Fordham going to the CAA would scare the PL presidents, you are correct that with Hofstra dropping there seems to be an easy out for the presidents if they just don't want to decide.
smart money obviously on another 'defer to the 2nd half' decision imo.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Should the PL presidents arrive at some sort of pertinent decision, what compels them to share it with anyone now? Even if a decision is made, the public answer to the scholarship/expansion question might well remain, "it depends."

[carney2]

I don't know about the other schools, but my understanding is that President Weiss of Lafayette is not capable of entering into these discussions without the authorization and recommendations of the Board of Trustees. To the best of my knowledge, the Lafayette Board of Trustees has not even had the scholarship issue on its agenda, let alone reached any conclusions. (I'm not "plugged in," so if someone has better info on this we would all love to hear it.) If I am correct, any discussions this week would be casual and exploratory at best. Personally, I expect no decisions.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't know about the other schools, but my understanding is that President Weiss of Lafayette is not capable of entering into these discussions without the authorization and recommendations of the Board of Trustees.

I would expect that is true on some level everywhere. The power structure at Jesuit schools seems to be a little different, and at the service academies different still, but I doubt any of the presidents can make such decisions in a vacuum.

At Hofstra they seem to be wondering about the source of Rabinowitz's authority, though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I would expect that is true on some level everywhere. The power structure at Jesuit schools seems to be a little different, and at the service academies different still, but I doubt any of the presidents can make such decisions in a vacuum.

At Hofstra they seem to be wondering about the source of Rabinowitz's authority, though.

Rabinowitz went into that BOT meeting with the results of a super-secret athletics study, made a recommendation to drop football, and the BOT "unanimously" went his way. So theoretically it is possible to make decisions in a vacuum - it's different everywhere. (Good thing that's NOT how it works at Lafayette, though - we might not have a Lehigh/Lafayette game if that were the case.)

I'll bring this up again - some president must have a thought there somewhere that they were a "Hofstra dropping football in the dead of night" away from losing Fordham forever. I'm hoping that will be enough to spur some action on this matter.

[DFW HOYA]

The original announcement said that a decision would be made by the end of 2010. It is possible that they will discuss interim findings but not make any commitments until the 2010 meeting.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Let's say that the PL decides on some scheme that allows individual members to provide scholarships up to a max that is below 57.8 (or what ever that magic number is). Then let's say Fordham has a change of heart and decides it wants to stay in the PL and participate in the standings/AQ race under PL terms. Having announced already the decision to go with 60 scholarships, how does Fordham back away gracefully and ease back into the fold without creating armageddon on Rose Hill? I sure hope Fordham stays.

[Go...gate]

I would expect that is true on some level everywhere. The power structure at Jesuit schools seems to be a little different, and at the service academies different still, but I doubt any of the presidents can make such decisions in a vacuum.

At Hofstra they seem to be wondering about the source of Rabinowitz's authority, though.

I surely hope God is in favor of scholarships. He has quite an advisory board up there with Rockne, Leahy, Crowley, Lombardi, Wojohowicz (hmmmmm....a lot of Fordham Men in that group! :))

[Fordham]

Let's say that the PL decides on some scheme that allows individual members to provide scholarships up to a max that is below 57.8 (or what ever that magic number is). Then let's say Fordham has a change of heart and decides it wants to stay in the PL and participate in the standings/AQ race under PL terms. Having announced already the decision to go with 60 scholarships, how does Fordham back away gracefully and ease back into the fold without creating armageddon on Rose Hill? I sure hope Fordham stays.

at 57, i don't think it would be a big deal. it would beg the question of why the league would put a cap in place that is so close to the max anyway, though.

at 40, it's likely a problem.

just my opinion

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For Fordham, though, what would the harm be if the number were even 30 and the rest were need-based aid? The kids whose families are making less than, say, $50K a year would go through the financial aid office, where they then would get a full ride anyway (and would count as much for FBS games.) But there would be 30 full rides for getting those mid-range kids which is the real target of the scholarship aid anyway.

It would be a bit more hassle, but the net would be the same. IMO.

[RichH2]

DFW , originally schollies not going to be decided before post season 2010 with no indication that there would be any firther action until then. PL then revealed via Director that schollies were on for specific consideration now. She also gave specific info on parametersunder consideration. While farfrom a guarantee of any action, weshould learn more of what possible plans are real options for us. I hope that either way they decide so that we all dont lose this yrs recruits.
Ofcourse, HU and NU drops could lead to decision that we can wait for next yr as 2 less schollie schools in the mix so we dont need schollies this yr

[Bogus Megapardus]

For Fordham, though, what would the harm be if the number were even 30 and the rest were need-based aid?

That's what I thought - doesn't it help recruiting immensely just to be able to say to a recruit that the PL can offer a scholarship, then get him up to Fisher Field (or to Goodman or Kerr) so that he can see that this is serious FCS business here? Imagine how different the teams would look if they could have offered the 15 or 20 full scholarships to the ones that actually got away to Penn or Yale on the one hand, or to W&M or Richmond on the other. You can't completely discount the fact that a lot of kids want to go to a PL school just because it is a PL school. It's the slippery slope once a scholarship decision is made that seem most worrisome, though.

[RichH2]

Agree that 30-40 plus need based grants would be great for PL if enacted. Puts us in much better competitive stance. And s/b enuf for FU's dreams of yesteryear.

[carney2]

at 57, i don't think it would be a big deal. it would beg the question of why the league would put a cap in place that is so close to the max anyway, though.

at 40, it's likely a problem.

just my opinion

Deep down in my heart of hearts I believe that academicians don't do anything without a precedent. ("What did we do before?" "What is everyone else doing?") I've been in academia, and this is the way they think.

Well, there is a precedent. In basketball they approved 12 or 13 or whatever the number was and then said "do what you want, but that's the maximum." If they care anything at all about Fordham - and I think/hope they do - I'm betting that they approve a Fordham-esque maximum with the "do what you want" tag attached. If School C grabs the maximum and runs with it, while School B approves "30 plus need based up to the max," that will be the way it goes. It won't make for an even playing field, but these clowns will think they bit the bullet and made the difficult decision.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm betting that they approve a Fordham-esque maximum with the "do what you want" tag attached. If School C grabs the maximum and runs with it, while School B approves "30 plus need based up to the max," that will be the way it goes.

Either way, not good for School "G"....

[Bogus Megapardus]

I am assuming that the Academic Index will remain intact is merit scholarships are permitted. There's no way I can see abandonment of the AI (at least I hope not). It is unclear whether Fordham intends to adhere to the AI for football while participating as a "non-qualifying" PL football member. Its public announcements don't say one way or another.

None of this flies without Georgetown on board, however. If Georgetown is going to play Big East lacrosse and will host Maryland, Rutgers, Notre Dame and others at MSF in the spring, is there no way that the $$$ for a little sprucing up can be found under the sofa? I mean really - Maryland v. Georgetown at MSF? I went to a regular-season lax game at Maryland a couple years ago and there were 17,000 people there.

[ngineer]

white smoke is schollies grey smoke is none?

Could be one leftover belch from the Beth Steel blast furnace...;)

[ngineer]

I don't know about the other schools, but my understanding is that President Weiss of Lafayette is not capable of entering into these discussions without the authorization and recommendations of the Board of Trustees. To the best of my knowledge, the Lafayette Board of Trustees has not even had the scholarship issue on its agenda, let alone reached any conclusions. (I'm not "plugged in," so if someone has better info on this we would all love to hear it.) If I am correct, any discussions this week would be casual and exploratory at best. Personally, I expect no decisions.


Carney, Unplugged!:D

[ngineer]

Deep down in my heart of hearts I believe that academicians don't do anything without a precedent. ("What did we do before?" "What is everyone else doing?") I've been in academia, and this is the way they think.
Well, there is a precedent. In basketball they approved 12 or 13 or whatever the number was and then said "do what you want, but that's the maximum." If they care anything at all about Fordham - and I think/hope they do - I'm betting that they approve a Fordham-esque maximum with the "do what you want" tag attached. If School C grabs the maximum and runs with it, while School B approves "30 plus need based up to the max," that will be the way it goes. It won't make for an even playing field, but these clowns will think they bit the bullet and made the difficult decision.

How the hell were they able to go coed?!:D 'pards broke the cherry one year before Lehigh...So there's hope!xnodx

[RichH2]

from what I can gather, less academic protest than expected so far at least on the surface. PL Director in discussing merit aid the other day noted that options were being considered particularly the Bball precedent. Presgroup may act like Pontius Pilate and just wash their hands and pass it on to each school to decide how many schollies to give to start with just a PL wide max.

[Bogus Megapardus]

from what I can gather, less academic protest than expected so far at least on the surface. PL Director in discussing merit aid the other day noted that options were being considered particularly the Bball precedent. Presgroup may act like Pontius Pilate and just wash their hands and pass it on to each school to decide how many schollies to give to start with just a PL wide max.

But . . . (a) what becomes of the Academic Index and (b) does it apply to Fordham?

[RichH2]

The deal as I understand it, allows FU to pursue schollies while PL deliberates but they still must abide by PL AI floor . No players under the floor can be admitted as football players. Much bitching on FU board about unfairness of AI floor but it was the quid pro quo for schollie compromise for this year coming

[Bogus Megapardus]

Perhaps to be considered in all of this is the appointment of Duke attorney Robin Harris as the new Executive Director of the Ivy Group. The WSJ made some observations suggesting that she is of an open mind:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203658504574193634290615534.html

I wonder if she and Carol Femovich have had a chance to sit down for brunch at the Harvard Club. Harris did say to the the NY Times that post-season football for the Ivies is "not on the table."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/01/sports/01ivy.html?_r=3

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But . . . (a) what becomes of the Academic Index and (b) does it apply to Fordham?

The AI ain't going anywhere.

[DFW HOYA]

The AI ain't going anywhere.

Rhetorical question: Why?

Stanford University has no AI, and their academics are not diminished: no nonqualifiers on The Farm. Same for Duke and Wake and Rice and any number of academically distinguished schools.

Is the PL so paranoid that the Ivies won't return its phone call that it holds its schools to a standard that 228 of 236 other D-I football schools do not?

My only argument against a strict AI-- PL schools should be able to set their own standards for athletic admission just as they do with academic admission. There's no AI to get into Lehigh, only to play there.

[ngineer]

The AI ain't going anywhere.

Yeah, he only scored 11 points last night...;)

[ngineer]

Rhetorical question: Why?

Stanford University has no AI, and their academics are not diminished: no nonqualifiers on The Farm. Same for Duke and Wake and Rice and any number of academically distinguished schools.

Is the PL so paranoid that the Ivies won't return its phone call that it holds its schools to a standard that 228 of 236 other D-I football schools do not?

My only argument against a strict AI-- PL schools should be able to set their own standards for athletic admission just as they do with academic admission. There's no AI to get into Lehigh, only to play there.

True, there is no technical AI to get into Lehigh; however, the admissions standards take care of that. IF we were to require all PL schools to abide by the schools' admission criteria for ALL students, then we wouldn't need an AI. However, we wouldn't be FCS anymore, either. Truly, D-III. The AI exists so that we can get some excellent athletes, who are still good students, but wouldn't normally be admitted to the PL schools without some slack.

[Franks Tanks]

Rhetorical question: Why?

Stanford University has no AI, and their academics are not diminished: no nonqualifiers on The Farm. Same for Duke and Wake and Rice and any number of academically distinguished schools.

Is the PL so paranoid that the Ivies won't return its phone call that it holds its schools to a standard that 228 of 236 other D-I football schools do not?

My only argument against a strict AI-- PL schools should be able to set their own standards for athletic admission just as they do with academic admission. There's no AI to get into Lehigh, only to play there.

All of those schools do have lower standards for athletes in some way.

We are just putting a more formal process behind our lower standards. Also we have to keep Lehigh honest.

[jimbo65]

All of those schools do have lower standard for athletes in some way.

We are just putting a more formal prcoess behind our lower standards. Also we have to keep Lehigh honest.

Subtle humor is the best.

Reading about admission standards reminded me of passages from the book "When Pride Still Mattered", Lombardi's story. College fball was king and it was a wild wild west. Things got really dicey at Pitt and many schools would not play Pitt because they were perceived as cheating too much. Not cheating, since everyone did that, but excessive cheating. Some of the players on the famous Fordham teams apparently supplemented their "income" by playing pro on Sunday under aliases. When Lombardi was Frosh coach he would bring in the recruits pre-admission to work out & learn plays. A different world to say the least.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The AI ain't going anywhere.

From a Lehigh man? Sheesh! You mean, "the AI ain't going nowhere," don't you?

[RichH2]

xlolx got to get that gramer kerect yup yup

Back room speculation on meeting. If they do anything at all, a possibility is a schollie proposal to be ratified by schools over the next yr and if ratified implemented for next yrs recruiting ( not this class). No official word any where yet. You know its deepcover when my contacts at LU are asking me if I've heard anything?xnonono2x

Its a few minutes to 7 pm here, nothing released asof yet.

[ngineer]

8:15 p.m. No release posted on the PL website...xsmhx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Horribly inclement weather in the Lafayette Valley this morning. I could see this as a reason for Femovich to delay any announcement for, say, six months to a year . . . . xrolleyesx

[carney2]

Help me. I have ADD. What exactly are we waiting for? What hard evidence do we have that an announcement of any kind is forthcoming? To the best of my knowledge all that's out there is a rather vague hearsay report from, I believe, our old friend ngineer (a usually reliable source, although he has taken to heckling and kicking me in this, the [second consecutive] season of my discontent) that our esteemed leader, C. Femovich, made this or that statement about football scholarships at a November Lafayette alumni gathering in Philadelphia. Unlike some of you, I did not find this sufficient to spend a sleepless night in front of my monitor waiting for breaking news. At this moment there is no solid indication that the League fathers and mothers have deserted their original time table of December, 2010.

Here's hoping, but you should probably stop holding your breath.

[ngineer]

All I was told was that this was being discussed at the next meeting of the Presidents...Any number of scenarios could arise when such an 'august' meeting occurs in December. Decisions could be made, but 'subject to' BOT approvals, therefore a 'black out' out of any press communications. With the way the Ivory Tower Types work, nothing surprises me.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I will find something out, but it won't be until tomorrow.

[RichH2]

Thanks, the suspense is gnawing at me. Altho I really dont expect much. There's always hope.

[the last indian]

I am pretty sure that we will get a "nothing done" as the league is stale mated on this issue, 3-3 with one in the middle.

[ngineer]

Thanks, the suspense is gnawing at me. Altho I really dont expect much. There's always hope.

Naw, that's your shorts creeping up on you...;)

I would think if something were in the 'offing' Groller would have printed something in the Morning Call.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Naw, that's your shorts creeping up on you...;)

I would think if something were in the 'offing' Groller would have printed something in the Morning Call.

Naaa . . . . Groller gets his news from LFN.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Naaa . . . . Groller gets his news from LFN.

REP POINTS!!! xlolx

[RichH2]

My gut is the issue is back to each school for the next year to further muddle the situation.

[colorless raider]

My gut is the issue is back to each school for the next year to further muddle the situation.

you got it. These guys will go to the very end before anything happens and THAT may be too late.xsmhx

[RichH2]

Ahwell,hopefully LFN will hear somenews today so we can get back to actual important stuff, preparing for Carney's Patsy ratings

[the last indian]

Forget about it. Not going to happen. No guts, no glory. Hung jury as some better programs wimp out.

[Seawolf97]

Northeastern and Hofstra dropping their programs in the last 10 days. I think we will see the status quo in the PL for another season at least.

[RichH2]

Seems so, but the glacial momentum of bureaucracy is deceptive. They think they are moving at all deliberate speed. So I willnot give up all hope yet.

[DFW HOYA]

It's bureaucracy, but also the need for consensus. Scholarships do the PL no long-term good if only three schools embrace it.

[carney2]

Seems so, but the glacial momentum of bureaucracy is deceptive. They think they are moving at all deliberate speed. So I willnot give up all hope yet.

It's time to get on with your life, Rich. This ain't happening in 2009. Besides, and as DFW indicates, apparently only 3 schools are currently in the "Yes" column. We're going nowhere on that train, so better to wait it out. How does it fall? I have no idea, but I'm betting:

YES: Colgate, Lehigh

NO (or, at least, not Yes [there is a difference]): Georgetown, Lafayette

Pick 'em: Bucknell, Holy Cross

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I know folks are waiting for me to weigh in with some good information - I'll end up weighing in next week. (Been a busy, busy week at the ol' day job.)

But I think DFW and carney have brought up some excellent points that really do require some expansion in terms of a blog posting. They are right - it's worth thinking about "where is the Patriot League headed in 1/2/5/10/20 years"? It's also true that the actions of the CAA - still developing - have to be deeply affecting EVERYTHING. Not just HU and NU dropping football, but with the latest WaPo article on the increasing arms race in the CAA.

It's worth mentioning that the PL is not the only Eastern conference with an identity crisis. Matter of fact, in some ways the PL's cautiousness has helped them to better weather the storm.

[RichH2]

Carney , I agree that time to get on to Patsy lists.
On votes 2 are definite LU and Gate in addition to FU, need 1 more vote which I imagine will be LC BUT the issue is for what? Femovich gave us some idea, implementing any idea much more difficult in Football than BBall. Cannot discount academic inertia combined with economy and CAA shakeout

[colorless raider]

It's bureaucracy, but also the need for consensus. Scholarships do the PL no long-term good if only three schools embrace it.

It worked in basketball for the PL, it can work here. "Smoke 'em if you got 'em".

[Bogus Megapardus]

I have no idea whatsoever what anyone might be thinking, but I would imagine that the PL would like to have long-term stability in its membership. Approval for schools to provide scholarships as each deems fit, over the objection of other schools, does not seem conducive to such stability. Taking a conservative approach might not have immediate appeal, but it will look awfully good years down the road if these are some of the last schools standing with viable, healthy football teams.

Look, everyone knows this is Division 1 - so the PL has to play up or get out. But despite what the CAA fans might say, we're not exactly bottom-feeders. The PL still has three schools in the top 25. I could see going with limited, strictly-defined scholarships, or none at all. I just can't see going with a free-for-all where individual members are allowed to give 63 scholarships if they are so inclined. The again, this could be the issue that breaks up the PL, or even leads it to stop sponsoring football. Who knows.

[the last indian]

The rumors I get are: Pro scholarships : Colgate, Lehigh and Fordham, of course.
Against: Lafayette, Holy Cross and Georgetown with Bucknell on the fence, though I am not sure how you vote "on the fence" other than by abstaining.

I do think it will take financial pressure or incentives from donors to make a difference.
Though "smoke 'em if you got 'em" sounds like instability, it might work to test the concept within the league. It may determine if schools can get a better athlete who is also a better student, whether the level of play improves and leads to better performance in the playoffs and generates positive publicity for the programs that adopt a scholarship program. This option would test whether adopters can schedule some good D-1 games with good paydays and improved attendance fostering better economics all around for the programs. And finally to gauge the impact on student life in general.
This would allow others that choose to sit scholarships out to have more clarity on the decision.
In other words, though the schools that went scholarship will have an advantage, it might be worth it. And a final point, the league is unstable now anyhow after Fordham's decision. Playing in the league without the prospect of representing it in the playoffs is not a decision that can be satisfactory in any period other than a very short one.

[Pard 82]

It worked in basketball for the PL, it can work here. "Smoke 'em if you got 'em".

Yeah, that worked really great for LC. Lagging the curve on b'ball schollys took them from a perennial contender to a perennial doormat. xbangx xbawlingx xmadx

Hopefully, things will turn around soon. :) xrotatehx :)

[Franks Tanks]

The rumors I get are: Pro scholarships : Colgate, Lehigh and Fordham, of course.
Against: Lafayette, Holy Cross and Georgetown with Bucknell on the fence, though I am not sure how you vote "on the fence" other than by abstaining.

I do think it will take financial pressure or incentives from donors to make a difference.
Though "smoke 'em if you got 'em" sounds like instability, it might work to test the concept within the league. It may determine if schools can get a better athlete who is also a better student, whether the level of play improves and leads to better performance in the playoffs and generates positive publicity for the programs that adopt a scholarship program. This option would test whether adopters can schedule some good D-1 games with good paydays and improved attendance fostering better economics all around for the programs. And finally to gauge the impact on student life in general.
This would allow others that choose to sit scholarships out to have more clarity on the decision.
In other words, though the schools that went scholarship will have an advantage, it might be worth it. And a final point, the league is unstable now anyhow after Fordham's decision. Playing in the league without the prospect of representing it in the playoffs is not a decision that can be satisfactory in any period other than a very short one.

If Colgate and Lehigh go with scholarship I expect Lafayette to find a way also. We will never be in the lead on this issue, but we will not lag behind the league after the basketball fiasco.

Also I will say it again...we didnt spend 30 million on a stadium to get crushed every year by the scholarship offering schools. I feel if Lehigh and Colgate go we will go as well.

[Gater]

Amazing (if it is true) that Holy Cross doesn't want to go back to the days of having 20,000 for a home game. They were arguably the best program in the east when they had scholarships. In '87 Holy Cross' Gordie Lockbaum finished third in the Heisman (and Colgate's Kenny Gamble won the Payton). That's pretty good exposure for schools with a combined enrollment of 5,500.

[carney2]

Also I will say it again...we didnt spend 30 million on a stadium to get crushed every year by the scholarship offering schools. I feel if Lehigh and Colgate go we will go as well.

Are you a member of the Board of Trustees? If not, how do we get you appointed?

In any event, your logic fails in three critical areas:

1. "WE" did not "spend $30 million on a stadium." Jack Bourger, Jim Fisher and some other guy did. (I think there were three.) The College has very little invested in the renovation of Fisher Stadium.

2. The decision will be made by the Board of Trustees, a group that has traditionally shown very little affinity for athletics and the things that make athletics tick.

3. Lafayette has made its own financial bed in the athletics/Title IX area, and apparently it needs a lot of work before it can be outfitted with a football scholarships mattress. Unless I am misreading the signs, the aforementioned Board of Trustees would prefer to throw out a used sleeping bag and tell Tavani to make do.

[RichH2]

Unfortunately , it does appear that Holy Cross is against scholarships as of now. Reason? No clue.
Scary to leave decision up to LC vote. BU unknown factor. I have heard nothing to indicate their posture one way or the other.

Even if we go it will likely not be 63 max, rolling avg of 57 for FU . For most PL already give in the mid to upper 50s. GU? Conversion for those schools with TitleIX issues will likely be a quite lenghty process unless they get some serious donations.

[Franks Tanks]

Are you a member of the Board of Trustees? If not, how do we get you appointed?

In any event, your logic fails in three critical areas:

1. "WE" did not "spend $30 million on a stadium." Jack Bourger, Jim Fisher and some other guy did. (I think there were three.) The College has very little invested in the renovation of Fisher Stadium.

2. The decision will be made by the Board of Trustees, a group that has traditionally shown very little affinity for athletics and the things that make athletics tick.

3. Lafayette has made its own financial bed in the athletics/Title IX area, and apparently it needs a lot of work before it can be outfitted with a football scholarships mattress. Unless I am misreading the signs, the aforementioned Board of Trustees would prefer to throw out a used sleeping bag and tell Tavani to make do.


Its my opinion Carney. They school knew a good team would be expected after going through the with the renovation. It would be incredibly shortsighted for them to not realize that the FB scholarship discusison would be had shortly.

The school say our B-ball program get ruined, I doubt they will let football suffer the same fate.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Scary to leave decision up to LC vote.

It would be simpler just to cede to Lehigh regarding determinations of any consequence, I suppose. :D

Seriously, Division 1 athletics, as much as the academicians don't want to face it, is one of the few things that separates Lafayette from about a billion other tiny, otherwise indistinguishable liberal arts colleges in the northeast. I hope the BOT knows how valuable that is, and that it will never come back if it is allowed to slip away.

I just don't think 63 scholarships are in the works, even if it means Fordham moves to the greener pastures of yet-unnamed conference it seeks to dominate on the gridiron. Just a guess, of course.

[the last indian]

I think both Carney and Franks Tanks are right. They along with others, perhaps those guys who have made generous donations to the facilities, have to generate the pressure to get it done. The administration has to come to believe that while there are costs to adding scholarships that there countervailing cost in terms of financial support for the school arguing in favor. Money is the most direct way to get an administration's attention. So much for the purity of the ivory tower.

[Go...gate]

It would be simpler just to cede to Lehigh regarding determinations of any consequence, I suppose. :D

Seriously, Division 1 athletics, as much as the academicians don't want to face it, is one of the few things that separates Lafayette from about a billion other tiny, otherwise indistinguishable liberal arts colleges in the northeast. I hope the BOT knows how valuable that is, and that it will never come back if it is allowed to slip away.

I just don't think 63 scholarships are in the works, even if it means Fordham moves to the greener pastures of yet-unnamed conference it seeks to dominate on the gridiron. Just a guess, of course.

There is a little part of me that would be intrigued by Fordham going all the way and joining the Big East in all sports. What rivalries there would be!

[carney2]

Its my opinion Carney. They school knew a good team would be expected after going through the with the renovation. It would be incredibly shortsighted for them to not realize that the FB scholarship discusison would be had shortly.

The school say our B-ball program get ruined, I doubt they will let football suffer the same fate.

Very good points. I'm certain that the next year, or few years, will be interesting - and roller coaster exasperating. We are on the same side here. We just have a different view as to how things will play out.

[carney2]

There is a little part of me that would be intrigued by Fordham going all the way and joining the Big East in all sports. What rivalries there would be!

Are you chewing tobacco, or is that your tongue in your cheek?

[crusader11]

Unfortunately , it does appear that Holy Cross is against scholarships as of now. Reason? No clue.


Reason? You have none...there is no reason. You, as well as others on this board, make baseless assumptions that are not true. It is all conjecture, my friend.

[Franks Tanks]

Very good points. I'm certain that the next year, or few years, will be interesting - and roller coaster exasperating. We are on the same side here. We just have a different view as to how things will play out.

I appreciate your insight Carney. I stay away from all Lafayette functions that arent football or basketball games so I dont have nor do I claim any insider knowledge. It all conjecture on my part

[hebmskebm]

There is a little part of me that would be intrigued by Fordham going all the way and joining the Big East in all sports. What rivalries there would be!

Tell them to stop demolishing old Yankee Stadium! Bam, pre-built FBS facility all to themselves :D

[Bogus Megapardus]

Tell them to stop demolishing old Yankee Stadium! Bam, pre-built FBS facility all to themselves :D

Hi. I'm from the Bronx. I have vested interests in the concrete and waste disposal business. You tellin' me what to do???? xcoolx

[RichH2]

Crusader11 I do wish that my post was baseless. It is not.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Slightly off-topic - who's watching the Army - Navy game today? If these two PL teams played football in the league, like they do in every other sport, can you imagine how this dialogue would be changed? Would there even be a scholarship discussion?

[the last indian]

Crusader 11- the problem is the way they account for title IX. Apparently once a school adopts one method they are stuck with it. LC and CU do not have this problem as they use a different method. Sorry, but them's the facts.

[RichH2]

Crusader, I am not saying the issue is philosophical, it is $$$. Similar situation altho not exactly the same as Lafayette. LU and Gate and FU do not have same issues. BU also $$ but rather an allocation problem as opposed to a legal one. GU extreme example of same issue

[colorless raider]

Reason? You have none...there is no reason. You, as well as others on this board, make baseless assumptions that are not true. It is all conjecture, my friend.

You had better talk to Frank V. and get the bad news.xnonox

[Ken_Z]

BU also $$ but rather an allocation problem as opposed to a legal one.

can you please elaborate on / explain this statement. thanks

[bison137]

Crusader 11- the problem is the way they account for title IX. Apparently once a school adopts one method they are stuck with it. LC and CU do not have this problem as they use a different method. Sorry, but them's the facts.


I don't think that is correct.

[the last indian]

Boy, if any of you watched Appy State and Montana today, you will realize how far off the pace our league is underscoring the urgency of this issue. There is no team in the PL that would not get blown off the field by either of those teams. A completely different league. Now I expect to hear that Randolf would have excelled or the Lafayette with their bruisers on the O-line would have hung in, BS. No team in our league would have been in that game beyond the first several minutes. It make the 'Gate run in 03 look like a huge anomaly unlikely to be repeat under the current regime. We have to make noise to correct this or accept the fact that the league will become a bunch of Haverfords that happen to play football.

[Franks Tanks]

Boy, if any of you watched Appy State and Montana today, you will realize how far off the pace our league is underscoring the urgency of this issue. There is no team in the PL that would not get blown off the field by either of those teams. A completely different league. Now I expect to hear that Randolf would have excelled or the Lafayette with their bruisers on the O-line would have hung in, BS. No team in our league would have been in that game beyond the first several minutes. It make the 'Gate run in 03 look like a huge anomaly unlikely to be repeat under the current regime. We have to make noise to correct this or accept the fact that the league will become a bunch of Haverfords that happen to play football.

Very few teams in FCS could hang with App, Montana, Nova etc.

This includes many teams and leagues that give 63 scholarships.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Very few teams in FCS could hang with App, Montana, Nova etc.

This includes many teams and leagues that give 63 scholarships.

As the PL is currently constructed i think they can compete and beat 90% of the teams in FCS. The biggest problem is having the CAA as the leagues neighbor. From a national perspective the PL has to compete with them which they have from time to time despite the limitations. Then you also throw in the Ivy academic prowess and it's very tough. However, with that said, if the PL does offer schollies the best teams in the league will be able to compete for a national title imo. There's too much talent in PA, NJ, OH and VA for the PL not to take advantage of with schollies.

There isn't a doubt imo that with scollies Lehigh could put on a showcase semifinal with 15-16k people there. Holy Cross and Lafayette could probably pull something off too.

[Franks Tanks]

As the PL is currently constructed i think they can compete and beat 90% of the teams in FCS. The biggest problem is having the CAA as the leagues neighbor. From a national perspective the PL has to compete with them which they have from time to time despite the limitations. Then you also throw in the Ivy academic prowess and it's very tough. However, with that said, if the PL does offer schollies the best teams in the league will be able to compete for a national title imo. There's too much talent in PA, NJ, OH and VA for the PL not to take advantage of with schollies.

There isn't a doubt imo that with scollies Lehigh could put on a showcase semifinal with 15-16k people there. Holy Cross and Lafayette could probably pull something off too.

Agree

[DFW HOYA]

As the PL is currently constructed i think they can compete and beat 90% of the teams in FCS...There isn't a doubt imo that with scollies Lehigh could put on a showcase semifinal with 15-16k people there. Holy Cross and Lafayette could probably pull something off too.

The PL is more than three schools, and the other four aren't even close. That's the problem with a league going in different directions. It's not exactly the MAAC, but a lack of direction sent them south.

[Bogus Megapardus]

One could not help but to be really impressed with the crowd and the enthusiasm in Missoula. It was an excellent game. I think the game atmosphere had something to do with the sense that the game, and the teams playing, were "bigger time" than the PL could handle. But our players are just as large and just as fast. We have speedy backs and sure-handed receivers as well. Our schemes are much more complicated and our quarterbacks have the luxury of being able to use them.

Having said that, no PL team could have stayed within two scores of App or the Griz. Those are incredible teams. I'm not sure, even with scholarships, we would ever stand a chance at a NC. I'd sure like to have the PL around to find out, though. And it won't be around if it doesn't remain relevant. The playoffs will simply be filled with CAA and SoCon teams (and Montana, of course). What's the sense of that?

League attendance leader Lafayette would do OK in the stands, as would Lehigh. Fordham would fill the place, of course, given its size. HC would have to sell a lot locally, but Fitton would be the best venue to showcase the league were it on national television like that.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The PL is more than three schools, and the other four aren't even close. That's the problem with a league going in different directions. It's not exactly the MAAC, but a lack of direction sent them south.

I was just imagining a playoff at Georgetown, too. It would be fantastic to see fans from CAA University in Virginia rumble over the Key Bridge for a Georgetown - W&M quarterfinal. I'd be there. If Villanova can do it, then Georgetown can do it. It just has to decide it wants to.

[colorless raider]

I was just imagining a playoff at Georgetown, too. It would be fantastic to see fans from CAA University in Virginia rumble over the Key Bridge for a Georgetown - W&M quarterfinal. I'd be there. If Villanova can do it, then Georgetown can do it. It just has to decide it wants to.

That's the problem Georgetown has decided what it wants to be-a Big East Basketball power and forget football, it's just intramurals. DFW can huff and puff but it is a disaster. We had a set of parents over here last night and they just kept shaking their heads at why nothing has been done with the staff or the field.

[CFBfan]

That's the problem Georgetown has decided what it wants to be-a Big East Basketball power and forget football, it's just intramurals. DFW can huff and puff but it is a disaster. We had a set of parents over here last night and they just kept shaking their heads at why nothing has been done with the staff or the field.

And that is truly a head scratcher, that a staff whose record is "scary bad" and worse every year is still in tact!! that is criminal!! Thank God those young men are getting a great education.

[carney2]

As the PL is currently constructed i think they can compete and beat 90% of the teams in FCS. The biggest problem is having the CAA as the leagues neighbor. From a national perspective the PL has to compete with them which they have from time to time despite the limitations. Then you also throw in the Ivy academic prowess and it's very tough. However, with that said, if the PL does offer schollies the best teams in the league will be able to compete for a national title imo. There's too much talent in PA, NJ, OH and VA for the PL not to take advantage of with schollies.

There isn't a doubt imo that with scollies Lehigh could put on a showcase semifinal with 15-16k people there. Holy Cross and Lafayette could probably pull something off too.

Disagree. With scholarships, I believe that the PL would become more competitive, but not necessarily competitive at the top level. Certainly not on a consistent basis. There are still the troubling problems of the AI and the allocation of resources. Can it be done? Probably. Will it be done? Probably not.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Disagree. With scholarships, I believe that the PL would become more competitive, but not necessarily competitive at the top level. Certainly not on a consistent basis. There are still the troubling problems of the AI and the allocation of resources. Can it be done? Probably. Will it be done? Probably not.

We all are forgetting that "competitive at the top level" has changed an awful lot since 2004. In the early 2000s the CAA was being run as a "ugly stepchild" league of the A-10, and clearly hadn't reached its upper potential. Now, with the CAA punching its true weight, it's a lot harder to win. Not impossible, mind you, but harder.

Also, it's easy to forget that the OVC and MEAC haven't been "competitive at the top level" WITH scholarships for quite some time now. And with the Southland's humiliation in the playoffs this time around, you could make a case that they've "fallen off competitively", too.

Let's just say that if the bar is "consistently competitive" at the level of App State, Montana and the top level of the CAA, the PL ain't the only league looking to meet that.

[RichH2]

Bison 137'

Sorry for delay. BU issue from what I've been told is allocating X dollars over a varied # of sports both male and female for compliance with IX but also to maintain Olympic sports and soccer at their excellent levels. The concern is that expending more funds on football will impare other sports, absent of course more $$$$. Know nothing about academic opposition to merit aid for football, if any.

[ngineer]

Yes, while Bucknell has been in the shadows for almost 15 years in football, their overall athletic program has been excellent, winning the Presidents' Trophy almost every year in the past 15 for overall athletic superiority.

[RichH2]

Back to LFN.Would be great to hear some fall out from ecent meeting as PL does not seem ready to say anything.

[ngineer]

Back to LFN.Would be great to hear some fall out from ecent meeting as PL does not seem ready to say anything.

My sense is that there is nothing to say. After contemplating their navel's, the respective Prez's and ADs return to their BOTs for further 'analyis'...There may be run on couches.xsmhx

[CollegeSportsInfo]

As a football fan, I'd love to see the league change it's mind on scholarships and also extend invites to Maine, UNH, UMass, URI and Stonybrook to form a 12 team conference (Fordham included).

I'd also like to win the lottery, for their to be world peace, and for Bill Belichick to decide to give back to the state of Massachusetts by becoming their head coach.

[Go...gate]

As a football fan, I'd love to see the league change it's mind on scholarships and also extend invites to Maine, UNH, UMass, URI and Stonybrook to form a 12 team conference (Fordham included).

I'd also like to win the lottery, for their to be world peace, and for Bill Belichick to decide to give back to the state of Massachusetts by becoming their head coach.

A lot of people don't remember that back in the day (about 1994), there were such discussions along the lines of an eastern football alliance between the PL six and those four schools. It's still not a bad idea.

[Fordham]

Bison 137'

Sorry for delay. BU issue from what I've been told is allocating X dollars over a varied # of sports both male and female for compliance with IX but also to maintain Olympic sports and soccer at their excellent levels. The concern is that expending more funds on football will impare other sports, absent of course more $$$$. Know nothing about academic opposition to merit aid for football, if any.

why is there a need to spend more $$? i don't understand all of the title ix implications for BU to convert need-based to scholarships so I'd appreciate anyone's take who can explain it.

excepting the title ix issue for Lafayette (and possibly Bucknell), I still haven't heard a substantive reason why the Hofstra/Northeastern situations should deter the PL from going scholarship. EDIT: competitiveness is one ... are there any others? FWIW, I fall into the carney camp on scholarships (if I think I understand it well) in that they are no panacea. So while they will help, they are not going to automatically put us on par with programs that have far better facilities, play a better overall brand of football or can recruit kids well below the current PL AI. Long-short, I understand that scholarships brings the possible disparity argument but I personally think that the impact is overstated.

Further, and moreso to my overall point, I think applying an additional filter to the available talent pool by requiring the aid be distributed only in a need-based way is incredibly inefficient and an irresponsible way for our schools to spend these significant $$'s. Not only are we the gorilla in the room in terms of overall athletic budgets within our respective schools but we have to spark student & alumni interest with the additional challenge of having our prospective athletes pass through a needs-based aid test that no other 'scholarship-level' sport is required to do. It's completely absurd to me and, at the very least, a luxury none of us can afford. While I again state that they are no panacea, I also don't think there is any potential move that a PL school could make with it's football program that will improve performance without necessarily increasing the budget.

[Ken_Z]

why is there a need to spend more $$? i don't understand all of the title ix implications for BU to convert need-based to scholarships so I'd appreciate anyone's take who can explain it.


i do not understand the concern either, unless there is to be a mandated minimum number of scholarships. i think that is extremely unlikely, therefore, BU could continue on underfunding the football program rather than increasing at the expense of other teams.

if this is correct, this is what i would suggest Bucknell do. approve scholarships, provide the staff flexibility in recruiting to decide how to spend current dollars, either on need or merit basis. additional need based aid created by football program offering any merit aid would have to be in the form of loans (tougher to recruit) until earmarked scholarship funds for football schollys are donated. if no one is interested in putting the money up, we can continue to suck at football, but other programs do not need to suffer.

by the by, word i've heard is that the study re merit aid for other sports was looking good for adding merit aid. recognized as a necessity to remain competitive in the Patriot League (and hopefully beyond for selected sports such as soccer and lacrosse). of course, visible progress on this issue is nearly non existant. the report from the November trustees meeting demonstrated the administration's continuing mastery of moving at a snails pace and using numerous words to say nothing.

[ngineer]

i do not understand the concern either, unless there is to be a mandated minimum number of scholarships. i think that is extremely unlikely, therefore, BU could continue on underfunding the football program rather than increasing at the expense of other teams.

if this is correct, this is what i would suggest Bucknell do. approve scholarships, provide the staff flexibility in recruiting to decide how to spend current dollars, either on need or merit basis. additional need based aid created by football program offering any merit aid would have to be in the form of loans (tougher to recruit) until earmarked scholarship funds for football schollys are donated. if no one is interested in putting the money up, we can continue to suck at football, but other programs do not need to suffer.

by the by, word i've heard is that the study re merit aid for other sports was looking good for adding merit aid. recognized as a necessity to remain competitive in the Patriot League (and hopefully beyond for selected sports such as soccer and lacrosse). of course, visible progress on this issue is nearly non existant. the report from the November trustees meeting demonstrated the administration's continuing mastery of moving at a snails pace and using numerous words to say nothing.


Regardless of the snail,,,it is still good to 'hear' that schollies are being looked at in a favorable light....there may be hope, but I don't see anything happening,now until next season..

[RichH2]

More likely BU will approve for soccer et al but still positive news. Underfunding certainly possible.as per Femovich merit aid if and when we get it will be along same lines as BBall. If you want to givethem doso. How many upto each school.

[ngineer]

More likely BU will approve for soccer et al but still positive news. Underfunding certainly possible.as per Femovich merit aid if and when we get it will be along same lines as BBall. If you want to givethem doso. How many upto each school.

I agree. BU will go with the 'smokes if you gottem' plan...and they won't have many. May start with 10 and 'move up' as money and success would dictate. But they 'stay in the game'.

[DFW HOYA]

More likely BU will approve for soccer et al but still positive news. Underfunding certainly possible.as per Femovich merit aid if and when we get it will be along same lines as BBall. If you want to givethem doso. How many upto each school.

Sounds fine in practice but it could potentially open up some real fissures in the league if Fordham and Colgate are giving 63 and Bucknell is at 20 and Georgetown is at zero. You need some competitive stability in a league or it will tear itself apart.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Sounds fine in practice but it could potentially open up some real fissures in the league if Fordham and Colgate are giving 63 and Bucknell is at 20 and Georgetown is at zero. You need some competitive stability in a league or it will tear itself apart.

100% correct. There will be no Patriot League if this happens.

[carney2]

An open question (or two) to Fordham:

Assuming that there are no back room discussions and agreements, and that the apparent silence from the Patriot League after the recent Presidents' Meeting means that there has been no progress toward advancing the announced timetable on a football scholarship decision from December, 2010, where does Fordham stand? Are there serious discussions in The Bronx about jumping ship before the Patriot League decision making process runs its course? Say it ain't so.

Oh yeah, while I have your attention, why the Villanova avatar?

[MplsBison]

Sounds fine in practice but it could potentially open up some real fissures in the league if Fordham and Colgate are giving 63 and Bucknell is at 20 and Georgetown is at zero. You need some competitive stability in a league or it will tear itself apart.

No offense to Gtown football...but is that not exactly the situation that has existed in the PL the last however many years?

Gtown is horrible...Bucknell is OK...Colgate is good....and this is based on how much money they spend.


Gtown admin seems to be accepting of getting their face beaten in game after game in the PL so long as they can schedule Ivy schools. xrulesx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This whole thing is comical. How there can be such a mess on say many levels is beyond belief. The hand holding by the schools; the AI because the schools can't be "trusted"; the inability to make a decision, geeeesh.....

How everyone is so attached by the hip is weird to me. The decision makers need to do what's best for their school whatever that might be.

[DFW HOYA]

How everyone is so attached by the hip is weird to me. The decision makers need to do what's best for their school whatever that might be.

If that proves to be the case, PL football will go the way of the MAAC. Fordham and Colgate will drift into the Yankee/America East conversation, Bucknell and Georgetown will make plans for the NEC, and the remaining three will be orphans caught between the scholarship/non-scholarship divide.

[Franks Tanks]

If that proves to be the case, PL football will go the way of the MAAC. Fordham and Colgate will drift into the Yankee/America East conversation, Bucknell and Georgetown will make plans for the NEC, and the remaining three will be orphans caught between the scholarship/non-scholarship divide.

Colgate andBucknell are full Patriot League Members. They simply cannot get up and leave in football and not expect repurcussions for other sports in the PL. The PL is the perfect spot for Bucknell and Colgate in all sports and they wouldnt mess that up to slightly upgrade or downgrade their football programs.

The MAAC fell apart because virtually every full league member dropped FB.

[aceinthehole]

If that proves to be the case, PL football will go the way of the MAAC. Fordham and Colgate will drift into the Yankee/America East conversation, Bucknell and Georgetown will make plans for the NEC, and the remaining three will be orphans caught between the scholarship/non-scholarship divide.

The NEC isn't adding any new memebrs, unless we lose a team. We have 9 teams (7 full time members), an even schedule, an AQ to the playoffs, and a very stable league.

Not to mention that Marist already passed on the NEC, in part, because they didn't want to associate with the academics of NEC schools. There is NO WAY a PL team would slum it in the NEC.

[RichH2]

Even ifPL puts in a minimum level for schollies, the disparity will be quite large between those at 15 or so and those at 57. Really no different than nowexcept overall PL level rises toa higher plateau

[Bogus Megapardus]

Joel Silver, the big-shot Hollywood movie producer, is a Lafayette guy. Someone wanna give him a call and see if he'd like to produce a big-budget drama here? Carney can play Art Rothkopf in the flashbacks. Meryl Streep as Carolyn Femovich. Filming on location throughout the northeast . . . .

xwhistlex

[DFW HOYA]

Colgate andBucknell are full Patriot League Members. They simply cannot get up and leave in football and not expect repurcussions for other sports in the PL. The PL is the perfect spot for Bucknell and Colgate in all sports and they wouldnt mess that up to slightly upgrade or downgrade their football programs.

I fully understand that, but PL membership is not eternal if sports priorities change. Bucknell's budget and sport selection is not tied to the PL environment.

[Franks Tanks]

I fully understand that, but PL membership is not eternal if sports priorities change. Bucknell's budget and sport selection is not tied to the PL environment.

But why would they join the NEC?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Joel Silver, the big-shot Hollywood movie producer, is a Lafayette guy. Someone wanna give him a call and see if he'd like to produce a big-budget drama here? Carney can play Art Rothkopf in the flashbacks. Meryl Streep as Carolyn Femovich. Filming on location throughout the northeast . . . .

xwhistlex

Who plays Father Brooks? William H. Macy?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Who plays Father Brooks? William H. Macy?

Good choice. Steve Martin can play Dick Biddle and Ben Stein can be the figurative, nay-saying board of trustees member.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Good choice. Steve Martin can play Dick Biddle and Ben Stein can be the figurative, nay-saying board of trustees member.

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/the-platform/files/2009/02/ben.jpg

"Anyone want to raise opposition to everything we've done for the past twenty years? Anyone? Anyone?"

[DFW HOYA]

Joel Silver, the big-shot Hollywood movie producer, is a Lafayette guy. Someone wanna give him a call and see if he'd like to produce a big-budget drama here? Carney can play Art Rothkopf in the flashbacks. Meryl Streep as Carolyn Femovich. Filming on location throughout the northeast . . . .

Kelsey Grammer will guest star as Derek Bok.

(The role of the Multi-Sport Field will be played by a parking lot in Middletown.)

[carney2]

Joel Silver, the big-shot Hollywood movie producer, is a Lafayette guy. Someone wanna give him a call and see if he'd like to produce a big-budget drama here? Carney can play Art Rothkopf in the flashbacks. Meryl Streep as Carolyn Femovich. Filming on location throughout the northeast . . . .

xwhistlex

I can do Uncle Artie. We could have a fantasy scene of him jousting at windmills as his trusted aid, Sancho Panza, played by Pard94, stuffs his head ostrich-like in a hole as they both assiduously avoid the serious issues and investigate reducing all of life's worthwhile activities to the lowest possible level. Oh, the symbolism. Ah, the pathos.

[Pard94]

I can do Uncle Artie. We could have a fantasy scene of him jousting at windmills as his trusted aid, Sancho Panza, played by Pard94, stuffs his head ostrich-like in a hole as they both assiduously avoid the serious issues and investigate reducing all of life's worthwhile activities to the lowest possible level. Oh, the symbolism. Ah, the pathos.

I will agree to play Sancho Panza only if I have a say in who plays me. It would be important to capture the quality of play on the field leading up to the pinnacle moments of the Artie and Eve show...which means I must be portrayed. I'm thinking Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson may just able to pull the role off. What he lacks in depth of character he makes up for in sheer athleticism and overall appearance. I wonder if he is available?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I was out for my run this morning and I kept envisioning a version of Rosie O'Donnell as Eve A. I don't know why, and I'm not sure it works. Anyone?

We'll need a convincing Frank Tavani, too. I like the notion of waxing quixotic.

[Pard94]

I was out for my run this morning and I kept envisioning a version of Rosie O'Donnell as Eve A. I don't know why, and I'm not sure it works. Anyone?

We'll need a convincing Frank Tavani, too. I like the notion of waxing quixotic.

The search for Frank is over...

[Fordham]

An open question (or two) to Fordham:

Assuming that there are no back room discussions and agreements, and that the apparent silence from the Patriot League after the recent Presidents' Meeting means that there has been no progress toward advancing the announced timetable on a football scholarship decision from December, 2010, where does Fordham stand? Are there serious discussions in The Bronx about jumping ship before the Patriot League decision making process runs its course? Say it ain't so.

Oh yeah, while I have your attention, why the Villanova avatar?

I've heard zero about any ship-jumping. The last line I've heard from anyone is that with the exception of banning our kids from post-season awards, we were really pleased with the PL decision on scholarships and a PL with scholarships has been our number one option. Since the frenzy of the past few weeks, the only thing I heard is that we are supposed to have a few kids from both Hofstra & NE playing in the Bronx next year. Doesn't mean those conversation have been happening but I definitely haven't heard a peep with regard to it.

The 'Nova avatar is recognition that they knocked the PL rep out of the playoffs and are still going. It's a thing that Joltin Joe and I did the year UMASS knocked us out of the playoffs. I don't expect it to catch on but I do think it would be pretty cool if it was somehow adopted as an AGS-wide thing. Right now the entire board would have Griz or 'Nova avatars with the entire site ready to pay homage to one of those programs this weekend.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Speaking of Fordham, we'll need a Frank McLaughlin (long-time Fordham AD) for our screenplay as well.

[Go...gate]

Good choice. Steve Martin can play Dick Biddle and Ben Stein can be the figurative, nay-saying board of trustees member.

Craig T. Nelson as Biddle - he would be perfect.

But Meryl Streep as Femovich? xeekx

[Go...gate]

Speaking of Fordham, we'll need a Frank McLaughlin (long-time Fordham AD) for our screenplay as well.

Can anybody coax Dean Martin out of retirement? :D

[Go...gate]

I was out for my run this morning and I kept envisioning a version of Rosie O'Donnell as Eve A. I don't know why, and I'm not sure it works. Anyone?

We'll need a convincing Frank Tavani, too. I like the notion of waxing quixotic.

Ray Liotta.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Craig T. Nelson as Biddle - he would be perfect.

But Meryl Streep as Femovich? xeekx

Craig T. Nelson is perfect! I was thinking of him for Tom Gilmore, but Nelson's just right for Dick Biddle. Biddle is pretty influential, though. Who were the guys that played Hayden Fox's assistants? They have to be worked in, too. Luther as Andy Coen?

I am open to all suggestions for Femovich. Any ideas? After LFN's post, however, Ben Stein is locked in. LFN's proposed script now has become the centerpiece of the film.


EDIT: Annette Bening or Téa Leoni as Femovich?

[the last indian]

Two minor items. I think the next PL's meeting is in June. By that time, Colgate's new Prexy may feel more comfortable to be more forceful in the meeting or maybe he wimps out.
As to the point about dropping out of the PL for football but remaining for other sports, I don't think it is a big deal as the "associate member" deal with Army, Navy and American is well established. The second sport at Colgate is hockey where we are ECAC members followed closely by Lacrosse. My guess some of this applies to Lehigh as well as their second sport is wrestling. For Fordham outside football, the PL is irrelevant . If indeed we (Colgate) wanted to step out of football participation in the league, it would be manageable, though I don't think that is what anyone intends or hopes for.
On the other hand, the league may be a melting iceberg and without enlargement may not have much life left. To grow and offer an attractive product for student/athletes, the league needs scholarships. So you HC, LC, and BU guys make noise with your administration.
BTW, as for costs, I believe that Fordham will tell you that their recruiting costs have gone down since the scholarship announcement. Only one budgetary item, but not trivial.

[Franks Tanks]

Two minor items. I think the next PL's meeting is in June. By that time, Colgate's new Prexy may feel more comfortable to be more forceful in the meeting or maybe he wimps out.
As to the point about dropping out of the PL for football but remaining for other sports, I don't think it is a big deal as the "associate member" deal with Army, Navy and American is well established. The second sport at Colgate is hockey where we are ECAC members followed closely by Lacrosse. My guess some of this applies to Lehigh as well as their second sport is wrestling. For Fordham outside football, the PL is irrelevant . If indeed we (Colgate) wanted to step out of football participation in the league, it would be manageable, though I don't think that is what anyone intends or hopes for.
On the other hand, the league may be a melting iceberg and without enlargement may not have much life left. To grow and offer an attractive product for student/athletes, the league needs scholarships. So you HC, LC, and BU guys make noise with your administration.
BTW, as for costs, I believe that Fordham will tell you that their recruiting costs have gone down since the scholarship announcement. Only one budgetary item, but not trivial.


Understand but Army, Navy and American all entered the PL with the understanding they wont play FB in the league--much different scenario IMO. Fordham left in all other sports but we HAD to keep them in Football to remain viable.

If Colgate would leave the PL in football and destroy the league they helped found, it is only fair that they should look elsewhere for all sports membership. The Patriot League started as a FB conference and it is my opinion that is a founding member doesnt want to play FB in the league they need to go elsewhere.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Understand but Army, Navy and American all entered the PL with the understanding they wont play FB in the league--much different scenario IMO. Fordham left in all other sports but we HAD to keep them in Football to remain viable.

If Colgate would leave the PL in football and destroy the league they helped found, it is only fair that they should look elsewhere for all sports membership. The Patriot League started as a FB conference and it is my opinion that is a founding member doesnt want to play FB in the league they need to go elsewhere.

xnodxxnodxxnodx

Maybe the league simply should reconstitute and change its name to the "Core Four." It's catchy. Once you're one of them, it's impossible to leave. xcoolx

Four is too few for a collegiate athletic league, you say? Simple. Add three or four teams to the four. Create a myth around who exactly constitutes the "four" (but we all know who they are). Each institution can claim to be an "original" one of the four given the obfuscatory language contained in the yet-to-be-written Core Four Charter (I volunteer to draft it). Endow benefits for membership that transcend undergraduate athletics.

Seriously, my uncalled for opinion is that Colgate needs the PL as much as the PL needs Colgate. I'm less sure of this than I am with with respect to the three Pennsylvania colleges, but my impression is that Colgate truly values is PL association.

This stands is fairly stark contrast to Fordham. I took a read of the Fordham sports board. It might be an unrepresentative sample, but there are very, very few there that want anything to to with the PL. Most seem to despise it, and they blame their association with the PL as the cause of their recent struggles. Again, this might well be unrepresentative of the general view and of the administration's view.

[carney2]

I was out for my run this morning and I kept envisioning a version of Rosie O'Donnell as Eve A. I don't know why, and I'm not sure it works. Anyone?

I'm voting for a bulked up Ellen Degeneris, BUT she absolutely must have THE best looking date at every point in the movie or it wouldn't be true to life.

[carney2]

Two minor items. I think the next PL's meeting is in June. By that time, Colgate's new Prexy may feel more comfortable to be more forceful in the meeting or maybe he wimps out.
As to the point about dropping out of the PL for football but remaining for other sports, I don't think it is a big deal as the "associate member" deal with Army, Navy and American is well established. The second sport at Colgate is hockey where we are ECAC members followed closely by Lacrosse. My guess some of this applies to Lehigh as well as their second sport is wrestling. For Fordham outside football, the PL is irrelevant . If indeed we (Colgate) wanted to step out of football participation in the league, it would be manageable, though I don't think that is what anyone intends or hopes for.
On the other hand, the league may be a melting iceberg and without enlargement may not have much life left. To grow and offer an attractive product for student/athletes, the league needs scholarships. So you HC, LC, and BU guys make noise with your administration.
BTW, as for costs, I believe that Fordham will tell you that their recruiting costs have gone down since the scholarship announcement. Only one budgetary item, but not trivial.

Colgate deserting the core (Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lafayette and Lehigh) would raise shooting oneself in the foot to new and absurd heights.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Colgate deserting the core (Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lafayette and Lehigh) would raise shooting oneself in the foot to new and absurd heights.

I honestly don't see that. If that is true, it's a poor reflection on each institution. To claim to be an elite university yet remain completely incapable of thinking independently is comical to me.

[Go...gate]

I was out for my run this morning and I kept envisioning a version of Rosie O'Donnell as Eve A. I don't know why, and I'm not sure it works. Anyone?

We'll need a convincing Frank Tavani, too. I like the notion of waxing quixotic.

Shirley Booth, maybe? xrotatehx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I honestly don't see that. If that is true, it's a poor reflection on each institution. To claim to be an elite university yet remain completely incapable of thinking independently is comical to me.

The Temple approach is better, you think?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The Temple approach is better, you think?

Which is? Please enlighten me.

Their football program is in the MAC and the rest of their sports are in A10. They're doing well while doing what's best for THEM. I'd say it's better.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Shirley Booth, maybe? xrotatehx

You mean Hazel? And Jerry Mathers as the Beaver?

[carney2]

Can anybody coax Dean Martin out of retirement? :D

Sorry, Gg, but you would have to coax DEAN Martin out of the box.

[the last indian]

I didn't not say the Colgate wanted to leave the PL, in fact I said the opposite, but at the same time the interest of one institution can not be totally subordinated to an obstinate few. I am merely pointing out that there are other possibilities. No one should believe that the current situation is sustainable as much as they may be nostalgic about the recent structure of the league. Fordham has been very fair in allowing other schools time to swallow the pill, but they are also adding Army and other challenging schools to their schedule which indicates clearly where they want to go.
As much as the Presidents from each of our institutions want to dick around, it is not possible for long.

[Ken_Z]

a few comments on issues raised today:

1) i believe Bucknell football will hang in with the PL even if they are underfunded and fail to be competitive. if the PL falls apart, i suspect Bucknell football might disappear rather than play in another league (NEC or Pioneer).

2) the schools are joined at the hip because they recognize that as a whole the PL is the conference that best fits these institutions. as noted in many discussions, there are few other fits for the league, therefore, acting together in the best interest of the collective good is also what is the best interest of the individual schools. if scholarships are adpoted, it will be because it is seen as the way to preserve and strengthen the league, not because the Presidents give a rats ass about winning the FCS title.

3) Bucknell will also have a new president next July 1. won't be in office for the June meeting, but will be known by then. i suspect current Pres mitchell would be delighted to leave without having to vote for scholarships and leave it to his successor.

[Go...gate]

I didn't not say the Colgate wanted to leave the PL, in fact I said the opposite, but at the same time the interest of one institution can not be totally subordinated to an obstinate few. I am merely pointing out that there are other possibilities. No one should believe that the current situation is sustainable as much as they may be nostalgic about the recent structure of the league. Fordham has been very fair in allowing other schools time to swallow the pill, but they are also adding Army and other challenging schools to their schedule which indicates clearly where they want to go.
As much as the Presidents from each of our institutions want to dick around, it is not possible for long.

Agreed.

[Go...gate]

You mean Hazel? And Jerry Mathers as the Beaver?

Not so sure about The Beaver. Eddie Haskell, however, clearly could have been a high-level PL functionary..... xsmiley_wix

[Gater]

The App State/Montana game was a two hour commercial for the University of Montana seen by 2.5 million people. The Patriot League has no other opportunities for this type of exposure (other than making the Sweet 16 in hoops). All the announcers talked about when Colgate went to the national championship game was what a good school Colgate is (there wasn't much else to talk about for Colgate...). A few million people heard this. With their stadium, Lafayette would be a monster with scholarships. Lehigh would have an annual game with Penn State and Holy Cross would have 20,000 people coming to games and a rivalry with B.C.. Football connects people to their schools like nothing else. It's a chance to wear your school colors, gather as a family and take in the beauty of a college campus. Football brings people back. It's what keeps people connected to their school. It makes kids want to go there and old men donate. It may not have anything to do with getting an education but no one looks back and remembers all of the great learning they did in college. They look back on what was fun. Football is fun. Get scholarships. Beat up on the Ivy's. Steal a game from Army. Play on ESPN and let 2 million people learn about the beautiful little school in Pennsylvania or Massachusetts that is as good as any school in the country and has one hell of a football team.

[Franks Tanks]

The App State/Montana game was a two hour commercial for the University of Montana seen by 2.5 million people. The Patriot League has no other opportunities for this type of exposure (other than making the Sweet 16 in hoops). All the announcers talked about when Colgate went to the national championship game was what a good school Colgate is (there wasn't much else to talk about for Colgate...). A few million people heard this. With their stadium, Lafayette would be a monster with scholarships. Lehigh would have an annual game with Penn State and Holy Cross would have 20,000 people coming to games and a rivalry with B.C.. Football connects people to their schools like nothing else. It's a chance to wear your school colors, gather as a family and take in the beauty of a college campus. Football brings people back. It's what keeps people connected to their school. It makes kids want to go there and old men donate. It may not have anything to do with getting an education but no one looks back and remembers all of the great learning they did in college. They look back on what was fun. Football is fun. Get scholarships. Beat up on the Ivy's. Steal a game from Army. Play on ESPN and let 2 million people learn about the beautiful little school in Pennsylvania or Massachusetts that is as good as any school in the country and has one hell of a football team.

Holy crap that was good..discussion done!

[crusader11]

The App State/Montana game was a two hour commercial for the University of Montana seen by 2.5 million people. The Patriot League has no other opportunities for this type of exposure (other than making the Sweet 16 in hoops). All the announcers talked about when Colgate went to the national championship game was what a good school Colgate is (there wasn't much else to talk about for Colgate...). A few million people heard this. With their stadium, Lafayette would be a monster with scholarships. Lehigh would have an annual game with Penn State and Holy Cross would have 20,000 people coming to games and a rivalry with B.C.. Football connects people to their schools like nothing else. It's a chance to wear your school colors, gather as a family and take in the beauty of a college campus. Football brings people back. It's what keeps people connected to their school. It makes kids want to go there and old men donate. It may not have anything to do with getting an education but no one looks back and remembers all of the great learning they did in college. They look back on what was fun. Football is fun. Get scholarships. Beat up on the Ivy's. Steal a game from Army. Play on ESPN and let 2 million people learn about the beautiful little school in Pennsylvania or Massachusetts that is as good as any school in the country and has one hell of a football team.

Reps!

[RichH2]

Gater should be appointed as our representative at all PL meetings regarding football. Yup Yup. We should be heard.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The App State/Montana game was a two hour commercial for the University of Montana seen by 2.5 million people. The Patriot League has no other opportunities for this type of exposure (other than making the Sweet 16 in hoops). All the announcers talked about when Colgate went to the national championship game was what a good school Colgate is (there wasn't much else to talk about for Colgate...). A few million people heard this. With their stadium, Lafayette would be a monster with scholarships. Lehigh would have an annual game with Penn State and Holy Cross would have 20,000 people coming to games and a rivalry with B.C.. Football connects people to their schools like nothing else. It's a chance to wear your school colors, gather as a family and take in the beauty of a college campus. Football brings people back. It's what keeps people connected to their school. It makes kids want to go there and old men donate. It may not have anything to do with getting an education but no one looks back and remembers all of the great learning they did in college. They look back on what was fun. Football is fun. Get scholarships. Beat up on the Ivy's. Steal a game from Army. Play on ESPN and let 2 million people learn about the beautiful little school in Pennsylvania or Massachusetts that is as good as any school in the country and has one hell of a football team.

Heck yeah. I keep asking - why do colleges have football teams? Now there's an answer for ya.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The App State/Montana game was a two hour commercial for the University of Montana seen by 2.5 million people. The Patriot League has no other opportunities for this type of exposure (other than making the Sweet 16 in hoops). All the announcers talked about when Colgate went to the national championship game was what a good school Colgate is (there wasn't much else to talk about for Colgate...). A few million people heard this. With their stadium, Lafayette would be a monster with scholarships. Lehigh would have an annual game with Penn State and Holy Cross would have 20,000 people coming to games and a rivalry with B.C.. Football connects people to their schools like nothing else. It's a chance to wear your school colors, gather as a family and take in the beauty of a college campus. Football brings people back. It's what keeps people connected to their school. It makes kids want to go there and old men donate. It may not have anything to do with getting an education but no one looks back and remembers all of the great learning they did in college. They look back on what was fun. Football is fun. Get scholarships. Beat up on the Ivy's. Steal a game from Army. Play on ESPN and let 2 million people learn about the beautiful little school in Pennsylvania or Massachusetts that is as good as any school in the country and has one hell of a football team.

I love this post! Though I will mention the following.

1. Holy Cross won't have a rivalry with BC with football scholarships. They might play every once in a while, but that ship has sailed.

2. One of the issues with "scholarships" is that the Ivies could theoretically refuse to play is. I don't think that would happen - not to mention the Ivy hypocrisy-o-meter would leap off the charts - but it is a possibility.

3. Army and Navy seem to want to avoid games with the Patriot League at all costs, and I'm not sure scholarships would help. USMA and USNA don't want to give the impression they are "playing down", and it doesn't help that we kicked their asses every once in a while when we did play them (see: 2002, Holy Cross 30, Army 21). If anything, they might be less inclined to play us since the gap, theoretically, would have narrowed.

Having said that, there's lots of opportunities for "play-up" games within a bus ride. Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, BC, Maryland, Virginia, VT, even W Va.... it would be great for the kids to prove themselves, and awesome chances at a major road trip. I think Penn State would rather schedule a Lehigh than a Coastal Carolina or an Eastern Illinois - but without 59+ scholarships, we won't know for sure. I have to believe, too, that there are academic synergies with hobnobbing with Penn State, Rutgers and Syracuse, too.

4. Finally, I think it does have something to do with getting an education. My educational experience would have been missing something had I gone to a school without football. Not long ago I went to Drexel for some conference on a weekend, and I saw how dead that area was on a weekend. I remembered how Drexel and Lehigh were near the top of my list as a high school senior - and how different my life would have been had I decided to go to Drexel.

[crusader11]

(see: 1997, Holy Cross 30, Army 21).

That game was in 2002 I believe.

[DFW HOYA]

2. One of the issues with "scholarships" is that the Ivies could theoretically refuse to play is. I don't think that would happen - not to mention the Ivy hypocrisy-o-meter would leap off the charts - but it is a possibility.


Some teams are already moving in that direction. Some Ivies are just not going to regualrly schedule scholarship teams going forward, much as the revered Dartmouth-UNH and Yale-UConn series are now in the past. I would suspect Columbia will consider dropping the Fordham series (unless Fordham does first). And look no further than Dartmouth, which added a series versus Butler.

[Franks Tanks]

Some teams are already moving in that direction. Some Ivies are just not going to regualrly schedule scholarship teams going forward, much as the revered Dartmouth-UNH and Yale-UConn series are now in the past. I would suspect Columbia will consider dropping the Fordham series (unless Fordham does first). And look no further than Dartmouth, which added a series versus Butler.

That are rapidly ruuning out of teams to play. The PFL only has so many available games for the Ivies.

[jimbo65]

Some teams are already moving in that direction. Some Ivies are just not going to regualrly schedule scholarship teams going forward, much as the revered Dartmouth-UNH and Yale-UConn series are now in the past. I would suspect Columbia will consider dropping the Fordham series (unless Fordham does first). And look no further than Dartmouth, which added a series versus Butler.
Each year Columbia & FU play for the Liberty Cup which honors those murdered on 9/11. The 2001 game was scheduled for the Sat. after 9/11 and was deferred to Thanksgiving morning. Admission was free , very well attended, with something like a 10:30 AM start, and the fans were asked to make a contribution towards the 9/11 fund or whatever it was called. As you might guess, both schools lost many alums to the Islam terrorists and FU provides a tuition schollie to any children of alums killed that day.

My sense is that neither side would cancel.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Each year Columbia & FU play for the Liberty Cup which honors those murdered on 9/11. The 2001 game was scheduled for the Sat. after 9/11 and was deferred to Thanksgiving morning. Admission was free , very well attended, with something like a 10:30 AM start, and the fans were asked to make a contribution towards the 9/11 fund or whatever it was called. As you might guess, both schools lost many alums to the Islam terrorists and FU provides a tuition schollie to any children of alums killed that day.

My sense is that neither side would cancel.

I still think it would be soooo cool for everyone (fans, players) to make the two-mile walk between the two fields (maybe for charity) every year. Are these not the two closest-in-proximity fields in Division 1? I love this matchup, and it could become one on the best rivalries in the northeast.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I still think it would be soooo cool for everyone (fans, players) to make the two-mile walk between the two fields (maybe for charity) every year. Are these not the two closest-in-proximity fields in Division 1? I love this matchup, and it could become one on the best rivalries in the northeast.

The other close proximity fields that come into mind are:


Georgetown-Howard
Towson-Morgan State
ODU-Norfolk State
UC Davis-Sacramento State


Probably not as quite as close as Columbia and Fordham's fields, but could have similar charity walks.

And Northeastern-Boston University can have alumni games until all the former players are too old to play. ;) I'd become an honorary Huntington Hound for that one and the opportunity to revive the Husky Alum Tailgate!!!!! xnodx :D

[Franks Tanks]

That game was in 2002 I believe.

The Cross did beat Army in 2002.

Army finished that year 1-12 and The Cross like 4-7 or so.

[carney2]

Some teams are already moving in that direction. Some Ivies are just not going to regualrly schedule scholarship teams going forward, much as the revered Dartmouth-UNH and Yale-UConn series are now in the past. I would suspect Columbia will consider dropping the Fordham series (unless Fordham does first). And look no further than Dartmouth, which added a series versus Butler.

Disagree, despite the apparent writing on the wall. There are scholarship programs and there are scholarship programs. I think the Ivies will refuse to schedule scholarship programs where the situation has become non-competitive. In the examples you cite, UConn is in the Big Least and that is a giant leap for most FCS programs. Dartmouth vs. almost anyone is a giant leap, so bailing on UNH and Colgate is almost a defensive measure. On the other hand, Harvard/Penn/Princeton/Yale vs. a scholarship Patriot league team would continue to be competitive - if not so one sided in favor of the Ivies - and I think would continue to be scheduled. Still, the Lafayette AD would have to fill some holes on the schedule - and that would be a good thing.

[carney2]

Army and Navy seem to want to avoid games with the Patriot League at all costs, and I'm not sure scholarships would help. USMA and USNA don't want to give the impression they are "playing down"

Don't you think that regularly scheduling Patriot League teams is avoided at the academies because they would give the appearance of moving ever so much closer to the conference that they are in for most other sports - an FCS conference for football? It is a side bar to your "playing down" argument. In other words, I am of the opinion (for no apparent reason other than "this I believe") that Army would rather schedule Yale than Lehigh any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't you think that regularly scheduling Patriot League teams is avoided at the academies because they would give the appearance of moving ever so much closer to the conference that they are in for most other sports - an FCS conference for football? It is a side bar to your "playing down" argument. In other words, I am of the opinion (for no apparent reason other than "this I believe") that Army would rather schedule Yale than Lehigh any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say, yeah. USMA is deathly afraid of playing the PL because their fans would think that it's the first step towards joining the PL in football. Never mind that if they and the USNA DID play PL football, they could still fill all their institutional football goals (play Air Force for the CIC trophy, play OOC games vs. Notre Dame), probably win more games, gain a playoff opportunity, still get the Army/Navy game on in the Vet with the same rating AND save money - while not changing anything else about their football team.

No, those road games at Eastern Michigan, Iowa State, Temple and North Texas are simply TOO attractive as recruiting opportunities. xrolleyesx (To be fair, Navy's games - at Ohio State, SMU, Rice, Pitt, and Notre Dame - is a much better road slate.)

[aceinthehole]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say, yeah. USMA is deathly afraid of playing the PL because their fans would think that it's the first step towards joining the PL in football. Never mind that if they and the USNA DID play PL football, they could still fill all their institutional football goals (play Air Force for the CIC trophy, play OOC games vs. Notre Dame), probably win more games, gain a playoff opportunity, still get the Army/Navy game on in the Vet with the same rating AND save money - while not changing anything else about their football team.

No, those road games at Eastern Michigan, Iowa State, Temple and North Texas are simply TOO attractive as recruiting opportunities. xrolleyesx (To be fair, Navy's games - at Ohio State, SMU, Rice, Pitt, and Notre Dame - is a much better road slate.)

LFN and others - You are in Candy Land.

Army and Navy are NATIONAL PROGRAMS, period. They have no interest in playing football in any of the PL cities/facilities and can get games in NY and DC vs. better known opponents.

Their football games are not just a "recruiting tool" it PR and alumni events for the U.S. armed forces. Army was stupid to be C-USA and now can can have a winnable national schedule as an Indy like Navy.

Have you been to games at West Point or Annapolis, or seem them on the road? Army and Navy games (not to mention the Army-Navy game) are events that put 90% of FCS and many FBS experiences (though not the quality of play) to shame.

Don't compare their PL memership in olympic sports with their football programs. Its apples and oranges.

[Pard 82]

I think Penn State would rather schedule a Lehigh than a Coastal Carolina or an Eastern Illinois - but without 59+ scholarships, we won't know for sure. I have to believe, too, that there are academic synergies with hobnobbing with Penn State, Rutgers and Syracuse, too.

Penn State won't play Lafayette any more, since we shut them out last time we played (1938). xsmiley_wix xthumbsupx xlolx

[colorless raider]

LFN and others - You are in Candy Land.

Army and Navy are NATIONAL PROGRAMS, period. They have no interest in playing football in any of the PL cities/facilities and can get games in NY and DC vs. better known opponents.

Their football games are not just a "recruiting tool" it PR and alumni events for the U.S. armed forces. Army was stupid to be C-USA and now can can have a winnable national schedule as an Indy like Navy.

Have you been to games at West Point or Annapolis, or seem them on the road? Army and Navy games (not to mention the Army-Navy game) are events that put 90% of FCS and many FBS experiences (though not the quality of play) to shame.

Don't compare their PL memership in olympic sports with their football programs. Its apples and oranges.

Hey they won't play us at their places.

[aceinthehole]

Hey they won't play us at their places.

Yes, if PL teams are "bowl counters" they should host some of you guys as their 1 FCS game per season.

I was really responding to LFN's comment "Never mind that if they and the USNA DID play PL football, they could still fill all their institutional football goals" which is absurd.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Twenty years ago, in 1989, Army's schedule was: Syracuse, Wake Forest, Harvard, Duke, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Rutgers, Air Force, Boston College, Colgate and Navy.

That's a lot better than Ball State and North Texas.

[the last indian]

Am I wrong or didn't I hear that Army is playing Fordham in Yankee Stadium? If true it would suggest that the academies want to play team with enough scholarships to qualify as a bowl eligible win. I am not sure of the Fordham deal, but I believe that if the PL was perceived as a truly competitive league the odds of scheduling them would improve dramatically.
As for those of you that worry that the Ivies might not schedule a PL with scholarships, I say who are they going to play. If they try to find more Butlers there own image and competitiveness will decline. That is good for us particularly when the opportunity of a post season competition is factored in the PL becomes a more attractive option for a kid. It is long over due that the PL schools stop Kow-towing to the Ivies. Let them play by our rules for a change. They will be around.

[ngineer]

Penn State won't play Lafayette any more, since we shut them out last time we played (1938). xsmiley_wix xthumbsupx xlolx

Yeah, just like they're petrified of us repeating the 106-0 spanking we gave them in 1889.xrolleyesx;)

[DFW HOYA]

Am I wrong or didn't I hear that Army is playing Fordham in Yankee Stadium? If true it would suggest that the academies want to play team with enough scholarships to qualify as a bowl eligible win.

Not true. Army is playing Rutgers, Notre Dame (twice), Air Force and BC from 2011 through 2014 at new Yankee Stadium. The Fordham game will most likely be at Michie Stadium.

BTW, the Academies have games with North Texas and/or SMU through 2019--the Dallas-Ft. Worth area is a major feeder area for cadets/midshipmen and the games help with recruiting.

[Franks Tanks]

Am I wrong or didn't I hear that Army is playing Fordham in Yankee Stadium? If true it would suggest that the academies want to play team with enough scholarships to qualify as a bowl eligible win. I am not sure of the Fordham deal, but I believe that if the PL was perceived as a truly competitive league the odds of scheduling them would improve dramatically.
As for those of you that worry that the Ivies might not schedule a PL with scholarships, I say who are they going to play. If they try to find more Butlers there own image and competitiveness will decline. That is good for us particularly when the opportunity of a post season competition is factored in the PL becomes a more attractive option for a kid. It is long over due that the PL schools stop Kow-towing to the Ivies. Let them play by our rules for a change. They will be around.

Army is playing ND at Yankee stadium (I believe they also have a game with Rutgers schedued there)

[aceinthehole]

Am I wrong or didn't I hear that Army is playing Fordham in Yankee Stadium?

No, that's not true. Army has 4 games scheduled in the new Yankee Stadium.

2010 - Army vs Notre Dame
2011 - Army vs Rutgers
2012 - Army vs Air Force
2013 - Army vs Boston College

[Sader87]

I very much agree that West Point is avoiding the PL like the plague....they have been hypocrites of the highest order in this regard. Hypocrites in the sense that when they had their supposed football renaissance in the 80's, their schedule was filled with many Ivy and PL foes.

[Franks Tanks]

I very much agree that West Point is avoiding the PL like the plague....they have been hypocrites of the highest order in this regard. Hypocrites in the sense that when they had their supposed football renaissance in the 80's, their schedule was filled with many Ivy and PL foes.

Yup, the Leopards played Army every year from like 84 until 97. Colgate, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Yale, Harvard, and Bucknell all played Army during this time frame.

[Sader87]

HC played West Point nearly every year from 1970-1994. It was a tremendous rivalry with great crowds (all at Michie) as many HC alums from the NYC area would annually attend. Much better crowds than they get for the E Michigans, La Techs and others of that ilk today.

HC won in '73, '78, '81, '86 and '87 during this period btw.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/holy_cross/opponents_records.php?teamid=188

[Bogus Megapardus]

OK, that's it. I'm convinced. We're taking the PL to FBS by 2011 - and under the rules, the academies have to go with us.

xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As for those of you that worry that the Ivies might not schedule a PL with scholarships, I say who are they going to play. If they try to find more Butlers there own image and competitiveness will decline.

Some Ivies - if judging by recent history - don't seem to care much about image OR competitiveness. If you don't care about either - and have huge endowments - the floodgates open.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Some Ivies - if judging by recent history - don't seem to care much about image OR competitiveness. If you don't care about either - and have huge endowments - the floodgates open.

That's a little cryptic, LFN, and I'm not very smart. Care to elaborate?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Army and Navy are NATIONAL PROGRAMS, period. They have no interest in playing football in any of the PL cities/facilities and can get games in NY and DC vs. better known opponents.

Their football games are not just a "recruiting tool" it PR and alumni events for the U.S. armed forces. Army was stupid to be C-USA and now can can have a winnable national schedule as an Indy like Navy.

Have you been to games at West Point or Annapolis, or seem them on the road? Army and Navy games (not to mention the Army-Navy game) are events that put 90% of FCS and many FBS experiences (though not the quality of play) to shame.

Don't compare their PL memership in olympic sports with their football programs. Its apples and oranges.

First, I've been to Michie, and I've seen Delaware play Navy on TV several times. But you seem to be saying that USMA and USNA's "goals" for football are 1) PR and alumni events for the armed forces and 2) a "winnable schedule". Couldn't every FCS school in America consider their football programs No. 1, and if they want No. 2, they could go PL? I'm not saying it would happen, but just dismissing it and then giving chest-thumping reasons as to why - you actually make my point.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's a little cryptic, LFN, and I'm not very smart. Care to elaborate?

Just saying to the last comment: "The Ivies' competitiveness and image will continue to decline if they replace Colgate with Butler, or Lehigh with San Diego": I'm just saying that the Ivies haven't really cared all that much about image in football recently (unless it occurred before 1981), and to competitiveness the Ivies sometimes seem to only care about the games against each other.

Put it this rhetorical way: when has the IL done the *opposite* any time recently: scheduled, say Delaware and beefed up their image?

[Go...gate]

OK, that's it. I'm convinced. We're taking the PL to FBS by 2011 - and under the rules, the academies have to go with us.

xnodx

I'll drink to that!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm just saying that the Ivies haven't really cared all that much about image in football recently (unless it occurred before 1981), and to competitiveness the Ivies sometimes seem to only care about the games against each other.

True. Why does the PL covet its broad Ivy schedule when the Ivies, by and large, couldn't care less about their PL games? Who would the Ivies care to play and get excited for, I am wondering? Regional NEC teams? National PFL teams? Williams and Amherst? The Philadelphia Cricket Club? xchinscratchx

[Fordham]

Ivies get excited to play other Ivies imo and the rest is just filler.

[carney2]

So, I guess we've given up any hopes of a football scholarships announcement coming from the Patriot League?

[CrusaderBob]

So, I guess we've given up any hopes of a football scholarships announcement coming from the Patriot League?

carney,

In a word, Absolutely.

I checked the PL Policy & Procedure Manual, which indicates the date of any rule changes - at least rule changes approved since the late 90's. I believe that all changes to this document need the approval of the Council of Presidents. Some I'm sure were rubber stamp approvals of a subcommittee recommendation, but here's what I saw.

- There have been 330 rule changes since they started tracking them in this way.

- 206 changes were approved in May or June - the approximate time of the Spring CoP meeting. That's almost 63% of the changes!

- 124 came in February, shortly after the winter CoP meeting.

- All of the football rule changes were approved in May or June.

So reading the tea leaves what happened since last spring and at last week's meeting? The presidents have been taking the pulse at their own school on how they would make scholarships happen if they were voted in as well as formulating their own position for yeah or nay.

A sub-committee has been formulating the pros & cons for going to scholarships (full 63, limited, each school decides, etc) with a formal recommendation for the way the league might adopt scholarships.

Last week the committee reported out on their options. A straw vote - or maybe a real vote - was taken which option to pursue. The presidents are now taking that option back to their schools for formal approval by their BOT's and if the option is to implement, to "sell" the idea to the full college community.

And a prediction ...

Final vote for the approval or rejection of scholarships will occur at the spring CoP meeting and we will hear then.

Kind of like Fordham last year. We knew Fordhams decision long before the PL announced it becasue Massella just happened to mention it at an alumni gathering. I'm certain that message board postings were not the first time the CoP had heard that Fordham was going their own way. They probably got the word in December - maybe even earlier - formulated a plan in December, evaluated options from Jan - June voted on that plan in June and made the formal announcement.

So the information that they were acting on it - or whatever the report was - at the December meeting was not inaccurate they acted and are just not at the point where they can or are ready to announce those actions.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Our campuses spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on expert studies to determine what kind of sidewalk paving material should be used and whether certain coffee cups are "sustainable." But I have to wonder, sometimes, if they really take this league's success seriously. The places it could go with these schools' names is unlimited. The brand, the history, the talent, the stadiums - it's all there.

I wish they would just do something.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So, I guess we've given up any hopes of a football scholarships announcement coming from the Patriot League?

The short answer is yes, for this go-round.


Kind of like Fordham last year. We knew Fordhams decision long before the PL announced it becasue Massella just happened to mention it at an alumni gathering. I'm certain that message board postings were not the first time the CoP had heard that Fordham was going their own way. They probably got the word in December - maybe even earlier - formulated a plan in December, evaluated options from Jan - June voted on that plan in June and made the formal announcement.

So the information that they were acting on it - or whatever the report was - at the December meeting was not inaccurate they acted and are just not at the point where they can or are ready to announce those actions.

According to Ms. Femovich at this years football PL Media Day, they knew for some time that the direction that Fordham wanted to go away from the need-based aid model, so that corroborates what you're saying there.

******

I'll have more on this. I can say that there isn't going to be an announcement on football scholarships before the end of the year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The short answer is yes, for this go-round.

I'll have more on this. I can say that there isn't going to be an announcement on football scholarships before the end of the year.

We'll have to read tea-leaves, then. If any of you Pards is on campus and is able to observe a noticeable spring in Tavani's step as he saunters up Hamilton Street, please report it at once.

[aceinthehole]

First, I've been to Michie, and I've seen Delaware play Navy on TV several times. But you seem to be saying that USMA and USNA's "goals" for football are 1) PR and alumni events for the armed forces and 2) a "winnable schedule". Couldn't every FCS school in America consider their football programs No. 1, and if they want No. 2, they could go PL? I'm not saying it would happen, but just dismissing it and then giving chest-thumping reasons as to why - you actually make my point.

No.

1) They can't be a "National program" at FCS, period. Second, a full conference schedule, not to mention BI-ANNUAL trips to Bethlehem, Hamilton, Worcester etc. prevent them from traveling around the country to play infront of large military crowds.

They play teams like North Texas becuase of the huge miltary presence there AND its a "winnable" game for bowl eligibility.

2) They want to win games on TV (see their TV deals with CBS, etc) and be eligible for BOWLS. They can't achive that in FCS or playing in the PL.

The fact is they are both FBS programs and RIGHTFULY so. They would not fit in ANY I-AA conference and it wouldn't help them achive their instiutional goals.

This wasn't a knock on the PL, its just the reality that Army and Navy football is so much bigger than any FCS program or conference. Don't let their lack of football talent cloud that fact.

[ngineer]

Well, as the adage goes, "No Noose is good Noose" ;):D

[Bogus Megapardus]

Long live the AI!

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/091215&sportCat=nfl)

[jimbo65]

Long live the AI!

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/091215&sportCat=nfl)
I'm unsure re. the AI. Do we know whether FU is following this. Supposedly we are getting more than six recruits from Northeastern & Hofstra plus a JUCO transfer. Not to say all of them could not qualify, I have no idea and do not know who they are, however, finding so many, so quickly seems farfetched.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm unsure re. the AI. Do we know whether FU is following this. Supposedly we are getting more than six recruits from Northeastern & Hofstra plus a JUCO transfer. Not to say all of them could not qualify, I have no idea and do not know who they are, however, finding so many, so quickly seems farfetched.


What's the penalty for ignoring the AI? It's not as if Fordham was going to be eligible for the PL title.

[Sader87]

What's the penalty for ignoring the AI? It's not as if Fordham was going to be eligible for the PL title.

The offending school's AD must write: "I will follow the AI vis a vis recruiting student-athletes at all times." 1,000 times on the Patriot League headquarters chalkboard.

[Fordham]

Coach Masella told me they're more than happy to deal with the AI if it means we stay in the PL with scholarships so I have no reason to believe that we're somehow skirting it now. It does beg an interesting question of how transfers are considered as it relates to the AI, though. My guess is that there is a clear policy but I just don't know what it is.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The offending school's AD must write: "I will follow the AI vis a vis recruiting student-athletes at all times." 1,000 times on the Patriot League headquarters chalkboard.

xlolxxrotatehxxnodx

Beat me to it!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Coach Masella told me they're more than happy to deal with the AI if it means we stay in the PL with scholarships so I have no reason to believe that we're somehow skirting it now. It does beg an interesting question of how transfers are considered as it relates to the AI, though. My guess is that there is a clear policy but I just don't know what it is.

Question: Does Masella want Fordham to be in the PL with scholarships but with the other schools not having scholarships, or does he want to compete with the others having scholarships?

I have seen nothing, btw, that suggests that Fordham is free to abandon the AI, but DFW brings up a valid point - why bother?

EDIT: Another thing - the NCAA requires that each conference designate only its best team as its AQ for the tournament. What if Fordham gives scholarships, drops the AI and rolls over everyone? Is not the PL obligated to designate Fordham as the AQ whether is wants to or not?

[jimbo65]

Coach Masella told me they're more than happy to deal with the AI if it means we stay in the PL with scholarships so I have no reason to believe that we're somehow skirting it now. It does beg an interesting question of how transfers are considered as it relates to the AI, though. My guess is that there is a clear policy but I just don't know what it is.

What is the AI as it applies to FU. For example, do the schollie recipients have to match in full, or some portion, the academic "achievements" of the student body as a whole or is it some GPA & SAT levels.

[DFW HOYA]

What is the AI as it applies to FU. For example, do the schollie recipients have to match in full, or some portion, the academic "achievements" of the student body as a whole or is it some GPA & SAT levels.

If Fordham is matching AI bands with scholarships it will be a resounding waste of money. The school is not spending $4.7 million a year just to out-recruit kids looking at Lafayette and Columbia.

[Franks Tanks]

Question: Does Masella want Fordham to be in the PL with scholarships but with the other schools not having scholarships, or does he want to compete with the others having scholarships?

I have seen nothing, btw, that suggests that Fordham is free to abandon the AI, but DFW brings up a valid point - why bother?

EDIT: Another thing - the NCAA requires that each conference designate only its best team as its AQ for the tournament. What if Fordham gives scholarships, drops the AI and rolls over everyone? Is not the PL obligated to designate Fordham as the AQ whether is wants to or not?

I think the designated conference champs recieve the auto-bid, but the conference is free to crown their champion in the manner they choose. Fordham may have the best record in the conference, but they will not be PL champions.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think the designated conference champs recieve the auto-bid, but the conference is free to crown their champion in the manner they choose. Fordham may have the best record in the conference, but they will not be PL champions.

Maybe if we designate the Hoyas as PL champs they will get a new stadium. xrolleyesx

[Fordham]

If Fordham is matching AI bands with scholarships it will be a resounding waste of money. The school is not spending $4.7 million a year just to out-recruit kids looking at Lafayette and Columbia.Jeez, if spending $4.7MM on a full scholarship program but with the filter of the Ai is a "resounding waste of money", then what would you call it when we were spending the same amount of money with the AI in place but NOT able to offer scholarships? xconfusedx

The real answer is that it's by no means a waste of money. The argument which I have repeatedly put up here with absolutely no one responding with anything of substance is that need-based aid is what is a resounding waste of money. Whatever money you're spending on your program is reduced to spending at the fringes of the overall market. You really can only recruit the really poor or the really rich with any great success and the really rich is a bit of a stretch given that they typically didn't get that way by making bad financial decisions (i.e. - a free ride at 'Nova, Richmond, Delaware v. a 1/2 or 3/4 scholarship at a PL school will pretty much always go to the school NOT playing in the PL).

Moving to scholarships v. need-based aid removes one completely unnecessary filter on the market imo. That's why it will certainly help us in recruiting but it's not going to be the absolute boon that some on here sometimes make it out to be. It'll make things a bit easier and also help us recruit locally a helluva lot better v. having to go far afield. Keeping the additional filter of the AI, however, ensures that it won't put us anywhere near a level playing field with the rest of the top FCS schools and, according to what I was told by Masella, that's ok.

[Fordham]

What is the AI as it applies to FU. For example, do the schollie recipients have to match in full, or some portion, the academic "achievements" of the student body as a whole or is it some GPA & SAT levels.The PL has AI bands that is now equal for all schools in the conference. Absurdely, a football player at Georgetown or Colgate no longer has to be representative of the student body at their own school but rather most closely representative of the student body at Fordham. Scholarships change nothing from what I've been told.

Honestly, the idea that we would just thumb our nose at something as important to the league as the AI is both offensive and absurd. If nothing else, every single thing we have done and every move we have made has been made above board and has been communicated very well ahead of time. Some people may be ticked off because we laid down an ultimatum regarding scholarships but there was nothing underhanded about the move.

[DFW HOYA]

Actually, my opinion has been that the PL does not need an AI, but if Fordham is going to have 60+ scholarships, it's not with the existing AI in mind.

If Fordham wanted to be in the PL long term, it didn't need 63 scholarships to do so. Clearly, it has higher aspirations.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If Fordham wanted to be in the PL long term, it didn't need 63 scholarships to do so. Clearly, it has higher aspirations.

How nice it is for Fordham to have a built-in schedule of conference opponents during its "transition period," though. I'm sorry, because I like Fordham and I want Fordham to remain in the PL. But more and more it looks like Fordham is trying to play us for fools.

[Fordham]

Actually, my opinion has been that the PL does not need an AI, but if Fordham is going to have 60+ scholarships, it's not with the existing AI in mind.

If Fordham wanted to be in the PL long term, it didn't need 63 scholarships to do so. Clearly, it has higher aspirations.1. I hadn't heard that we increased funding to move to 63. Where did you hear that?

2. Your opinion on the AI isn't relevant to my comment. Tell me how us spending $4MM+ on need based aid isn't grossly mismanaging our budget v. $4MM+ on scholarships, even with the AI?

[CSN-info]

Big "12 men on field" penalty, shortened the field for Griz by 15 yards. Stay tuned...

[DFW HOYA]

1. I hadn't heard that we increased funding to move to 63. Where did you hear that?

2. Your opinion on the AI isn't relevant to my comment. Tell me how us spending $4MM+ on need based aid isn't grossly mismanaging our budget v. $4MM+ on scholarships, even with the AI?


1. If it's not at 63, it's got to be close. Then again, no PL team announces its equivalencies so it's a guess on my part.

2. I would not call Fordham's plan gross mismanagement by any means. All I was saying, and we can agree to disagree on this one, is that PL scholarships are a means to an end for Fordham that does not fit the current philosophy of the league and "may" be an opportunity to look elsewhere.

[RichH2]

A conference wide AI floor makes Fordham's players not representative of school student body. I do not understand. Are all of FU's recruits that low that they would be all around the low end?

[CFBfan]

A conference wide AI floor makes Fordham's players not representative of school student body. I do not understand. Are all of FU's recruits that low that they would be all around the low end?
A good amount of them are. More than any other PL school. I am not saying that this is bad or good it just "is what it is"
And, FU is not long for the PL, they are looking to get out and would love the CAA, can't speak for the admin. but this is what the football staff is pushing for.

[Bogus Megapardus]

A good amount of them are. More than any other PL school. I am not saying that this is bad or good it just "is what it is"
And, FU is not long for the PL, they are looking to get out and would love the CAA, can't speak for the admin. but this is what the football staff is pushing for.

Who, in particular, on the Fordham staff is pushing for the CAA? What, if any, information suggests that the CAA now is interested in another smaller, New York City-based private school?

[CFBfan]

Who, in particular, on the Fordham staff is pushing for the CAA? What, if any, information suggests that the CAA now is interested in another smaller, New York City-based private school?
No idea if the CAA is interested in them but from "the top" down they are interested in the CAA, this is based on a personal conversation with several of them.

[Franks Tanks]

No idea if the CAA is interested in them but from "the top" down they are interested in the CAA, this is based on a personal conversation with several of them.

It doesnt really matter what the FB staff wants. Most coaches would say they want to be in Big 10.

[CFBfan]

It doesnt really matter what the FB staff wants. Most coaches would say they want to be in Big 10.
it was more than a wish list or pie in the sky hope.
time will tell.

[Fordham]

1. If it's not at 63, it's got to be close. Then again, no PL team announces its equivalencies so it's a guess on my part.

2. I would not call Fordham's plan gross mismanagement by any means. All I was saying, and we can agree to disagree on this one, is that PL scholarships are a means to an end for Fordham that does not fit the current philosophy of the league and "may" be an opportunity to look elsewhere.

and this is how rumors get started. you start stating in different threads that we have actually increased our funding and ramped up and then you draw your own conclusions from that fact and then posters like Bogus respond to your "fact" and further reinforce that perception. The discussion continues and you start discussing how Fordham's plans are bigger than the PL given how they not only went scholarship but then leapt from whatever # of equivalencies we were giving last year but now up to the FCS max. Why would we not only move to scholarships but also pour more money into our program unless we had greater plans?

here's the problem - all of it is untrue and, for me at least, it's frustrating and exhausting to keep trying to dispel these myths or accusations surrounding our move to scholarships.

For the umpteenth time ... here is the Reader's Digest (edit: alright maybe more "War & Peace" version) on our move to scholarships. We had a chance to improve our program without spending one dime more on it by changing from need-based aid to scholarships. We had been pushing this for years within the PL and it was blocked by the schools that have Title IX issues surrounding it - issues that we had none of because we treated our need-based aid as athletic aid already. When the league decided to change the AI it was done with some sort of promise that scholarships would be announced in time for the following year's recruiting class. After they implemented the AI change the league became much more non-committal on scholarships and we had our head coach raise his hand for the job at UMASS even though it would have been a drop in pay. Since he has always been an above board guy and respected within the school, his interest in the UMASS job enabled him to have conversations with our President, AD, guy AD reports into, et. al. about his take on the impact of the new AI in a PL without scholarships. This is what convinced us to take the stand that we were moving ahead with the originally promised plan, and announced our move to scholarships for the 2010 recruiting class.

There is not a dime more being spend on the program. In fact, the move to scholarships will help us recruit locally a lot more and theoretically (nothing changed as of yet from what I've been told) could allow us to reduce our recruiting budget.

We have not increased funding to 63 and from what I've been told there are zero plans to do so. There are also zero plans for any facility upgrades other than a new locker room. It was simply an incredible no-brainer as a way to improve the program without spending a dime more that we had been trying to implement for years but only grew the biscuits to insist on after having the rug pulled out on us by the PL back-out on the AI/scholly quid-pro-quo.

If people think we have increased our commitment to the program it understandably leads to these wild accusations on threads in here that are reinforced by a few knuckleheads on our board who somehow dream of a return to the days of Lombardi. Again, keep your commitment to the program the same and spend no more money but drive better results by eliminating the needless need-based aid filter - a no brainer but not an increased commitment to the program. Again, very frustrating but whatever ...

[Fordham]

A good amount of them are. More than any other PL school. I am not saying that this is bad or good it just "is what it is"
And, FU is not long for the PL, they are looking to get out and would love the CAA, can't speak for the admin. but this is what the football staff is pushing for.
No idea if the CAA is interested in them but from "the top" down they are interested in the CAA, this is based on a personal conversation with several of them.

Who specifically?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I can only tell you about my direct conversations that conflict with what you've claimed. As Frank said, some coaches would want to move to the highest conference possible, screw the costs, screw the effect. Further, I haven't spoken to many of them since the Hofstra/Northeastern news broke and I don't know if the perceived opportunity (one that I don't think exists) to go to the CAA at that point changed their minds and I also don't know if behind closed doors we've been told by the PL that scholarships aren't happening and that we should look elsewhere. Those are two scenarios where I could see some on the staff excited about a potential CAA move.

Back to my point:

A few years back I was on our class's Jubilee Committee - it's the knuckleheads who devote a few weekday nights to bugging their classmates for donations in advance of an every five year reunion. while I won't do it again, the one thing it did for me was to get me a private conversation with our President, Fr. McShane. I asked him specifically about scholarships and was surprised by how quickly he told me that he was in favor of them but we needed to get other schools on board. He also then mentioned how much he personally loves the PL (take that for what it's worth). Back then I was also a big fan so I put in my plug for how the league should aspire to what schools like Stanford & Vanderbilt have done individually which is combine big time athletics and big time academics as a means to improve both academics & athletics ... and improve the profile of the university. I argued that it's too difficult for one school to do this on its own in this environment but that a league dedicated to both might be able to pull it off. Horrendously, I forget his response - so I'm sure it was wishy washy, non-committal stuff. I then went over to relay to our AD the conversation we had and he confirmed it and mentioned HC as the major roadblock (again, this was a few years back). He also reinforced his affinity for the PL (not a surprise since he's the guy who took us there).

Fast forward to last spring. I'm no longer a die hard PL fan (apologies guys, I'm more agnostic than a true believer now) and it's due to a combination of the new AI and a belief that there is no intention of the league ever realizing its potential - athletics are just not important enough (and maybe that's ok). At the meeting where Masella announced we were going scholarship I mentioned to him how po'd I was at the league and I asked him what our hope was - do we want out of the league that just screwed us (my words)? He gave me a resounding and direct 'no'. He said that he knows he can compete with the AI as long as he has scholarships - but without them and with the AI it would be impossible. He said unequivocally that a PL with scholarships is Fordham's #1 choice. I have heard nothing since then to change that perception and the only argument I can even think of otherwise I laid out in the first paragraph.

So I have had direct conversations on this topic with our President, our AD and our Head Coach - they all said PL with scholarships is our #1 hope/goal. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong but exactly who have you spoken to that said otherwise?

[Sader87]

Who specifically?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I can only tell you about my direct conversations that conflict with what you've claimed. As Frank said, some coaches would want to move to the highest conference possible, screw the costs, screw the effect. Further, I haven't spoken to many of them since the Hofstra/Northeastern news broke and I don't know if the perceived opportunity (one that I don't think exists) to go to the CAA at that point changed their minds and I also don't know if behind closed doors we've been told by the PL that scholarships aren't happening and that we should look elsewhere. Those are two scenarios where I could see some on the staff excited about a potential CAA move.

Back to my point:

A few years back I was on our class's Jubilee Committee - it's the knuckleheads who devote a few weekday nights to bugging their classmates for donations in advance of an every five year reunion. while I won't do it again, the one thing it did for me was to get me a private conversation with our President, Fr. McShane. I asked him specifically about scholarships and was surprised by how quickly he told me that he was in favor of them but we needed to get other schools on board. He also then mentioned how much he personally loves the PL (take that for what it's worth). Back then I was also a big fan so I put in my plug for how the league should aspire to what schools like Stanford & Vanderbilt have done individually which is combine big time athletics and big time academics as a means to improve both and improve the profile of the university. I argued that it's too difficult for one school to do this on its own in this environment but that a league dedicated to both might be able to pull it off. Horrendously, I forget his response - so I'm sure it was wishy washy, non-committal stuff. I then went over to relay to our AD the conversation we had and he confirmed it and mentioned HC as the major roadblock (again, this was a few years back). He also reinforced his affinity for the PL (not a surprise since he's the guy who took us there).

Fast forward to last spring. I'm no longer a die hard PL fan (apologies guys, I'm more agnostic than a true believer now) and it's due to a combination of the new AI and a belief that there is no intention of the league ever realizing its potential - athletics are just not important enough (and maybe that's ok). At the meeting where Masella announced we were going scholarship I mentioned to him how po'd I was at the league and I asked him what our hope was - do we want out of the league that just screwed us (my words)? He gave me a resounding and direct 'no'. He said that he knows he can compete with the AI as long as he has scholarships - but without them and with the AI it would be impossible. He said unequivocally that a PL with scholarships is Fordham's #1 choice. I have heard nothing since then to change that perception and the only argument I can even think of otherwise I laid out in the first paragraph.

So I have had direct conversations on this topic with our President, our AD and our Head Coach - they all said PL with scholarships is our #1 hope/goal. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong but exactly who have you spoken to that said otherwise?

Did he say why HC was against going scholarship?

[Bogus Megapardus]

We had been pushing this for years within the PL and it was blocked by the schools that have Title IX issues surrounding it - issues that we had none of because we treated our need-based aid as athletic aid already.

So if I understand correctly, a university joins an athletic conference that has non-scholarship football competition written into its charter, and when some of its members foolishly and selfishly seek to abide the very mandate that engendered their own participation in the conference, those members get accused of "having Title IX issues" and "blocking" the inalienable entitlement of the lone member to wholly disregard the charter's precepts.

This would make for a captivating episode of "Special Victims Unit."

[Fordham]

Did he say why HC was against going scholarship?He referenced Title IX but didn't indicate with any high degree of certainty that this was the problem. Made it sounds moreso like this was what he was told or what he had heard.

[Fordham]

So if I understand correctly, a university joins an athletic conference that has non-scholarship football competition written into its charter, and when some of its members foolishly and selfishly seek to abide the very mandate that engendered their own participation in the conference, those members get accused of "having Title IX issues" and "blocking" the inalienable entitlement of the lone member to wholly disregard the charter's precepts.

This would make for a captivating episode of "Special Victims Unit."
1. The philosophical opposition to scholarships and hiding behind that mandate flew out the window when they started offering them in pretty much every sport except football.

2. If the Title IX issues were not there for Lafayette, I was told they would have been leading the way on the march to scholarships. There is no love for the mandate at your school or anywhere in the PL that would matter in making this decision ... there is a problem, however, in having to spend more money to make the move (due to Title IX) or with having the spread between those who spend $$ on their program and those that don't (Gtown).

3. I appreciate you for once not including the bs caveat about being a big fan of Fordham before slamming us this time. true colors xeyebrowx

[DFW HOYA]

I've read very little, if any, true philosophical opposition to scholarship support. What is at issue is that at least three teams in the league must resolve Title IX and/or budget issues, otherwise the league risks spinning off its axis and becoming competitively unstable in ways the league cannot long support.

[Gater]

When the Patriot League formed Colgate's out of conference schedule was Rutgers, Army, Syracuse, Duke, William and Mary, New Hampshire and the Ivies. Now, none of the FBS schools will play us and we have dropped schools like William and Mary for schools like Monmouth (and we've lost to them). The world of eastern college football has changed. The Patriot League schools have fallen behind by not changing along with it. I think it is great that Fordham has forced the issue. I'm sick of the Patriot League being rightfully looked at as one of the weaker conferences in FCS and Colgate's reach games being against the Big South instead of the Big East (or at least the MAC). Title IX makes it hard but if you are a fan of Patriot League football you are a fan of scholarships.

[ngineer]

When the Patriot League formed Colgate's out of conference schedule was Rutgers, Army, Syracuse, Duke, William and Mary, New Hampshire and the Ivies. Now, none of the FBS schools will play us and we have dropped schools like William and Mary for schools like Monmouth (and we've lost to them). The world of eastern college football has changed. The Patriot League schools have fallen behind by not changing along with it. I think it is great that Fordham has forced the issue. I'm sick of the Patriot League being rightfully looked at as one of the weaker conferences in FCS and Colgate's reach games being against the Big South instead of the Big East (or at least the MAC). Title IX makes it hard but if you are a fan of Patriot League football you are a fan of scholarships.

Well said. I feel the same. The league needs to make a philosophical decision as to whether it wants to remain competitive on the national stage or become an anachronism.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

When the Patriot League formed Colgate's out of conference schedule was Rutgers, Army, Syracuse, Duke, William and Mary, New Hampshire and the Ivies. Now, none of the FBS schools will play us and we have dropped schools like William and Mary for schools like Monmouth (and we've lost to them). The world of eastern college football has changed. The Patriot League schools have fallen behind by not changing along with it. I think it is great that Fordham has forced the issue. I'm sick of the Patriot League being rightfully looked at as one of the weaker conferences in FCS and Colgate's reach games being against the Big South instead of the Big East (or at least the MAC). Title IX makes it hard but if you are a fan of Patriot League football you are a fan of scholarships.

xthumbsupx

[Sader87]

My fear is that the TPTB at HC will look at this past season's success (i.e. playing the eventual NC tough etc) and come to the conclusion that "we don't need football scholarships, we're fine as is etc."

[Seawolf97]

When the Patriot League formed Colgate's out of conference schedule was Rutgers, Army, Syracuse, Duke, William and Mary, New Hampshire and the Ivies. Now, none of the FBS schools will play us and we have dropped schools like William and Mary for schools like Monmouth (and we've lost to them). The world of eastern college football has changed. The Patriot League schools have fallen behind by not changing along with it. I think it is great that Fordham has forced the issue. I'm sick of the Patriot League being rightfully looked at as one of the weaker conferences in FCS and Colgate's reach games being against the Big South instead of the Big East (or at least the MAC). Title IX makes it hard but if you are a fan of Patriot League football you are a fan of scholarships.

I think you have nailed it. If all the rumors are true about a new FCS Conference forming in the Northeast maybe some Patriot League members should try and seek membership. Colgate and Holy Cross come to mind and Fordham has already been mentioned as in the mix.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think you have nailed it. If all the rumors are true about a new FCS Conference forming in the Northeast maybe some Patriot League members should try and seek membership. Colgate and Holy Cross come to mind and Fordham has already been mentioned as in the mix.

This appears to be the direction we're headed. I guess was fun while it lasted.

[Franks Tanks]

I think you have nailed it. If all the rumors are true about a new FCS Conference forming in the Northeast maybe some Patriot League members should try and seek membership. Colgate and Holy Cross come to mind and Fordham has already been mentioned as in the mix.

There is no evidence that Colgate or Holy Cross wishes to leave the PL. For all the smoke blown by Colgate and Holy Cross fans it is not the fault of the PL that your schedule isnt what you desire. COlgate and Holy Cross desired to join the PL. Colgate has never given FB scholarship-- not now not ever. NCAA rules and changing prioities by Rutgers and Cuse is the reason why Colgate doesnt play them, not the PL. Colgate and Holy Cross can easily play the likes of William & Mary, Richmond, Nova, Delaware etc. Lafayette and especially Lehigh have played these school often in the regular season in recent years. The only one to blame for not playing these schools is Colgate's AD and administation.

If Colgate and Holy Cross strongly desire scholarships and the PL refuses, then a break may occur. We are very far from that point however. In the meantime lets stop blaming the PL for every percieved short coming of the program.

Things change rather quickly in college football. The Pl hasnt done the best job keeping up with the times, but Colgate and Holy Cross havent exactly been at the forefront of change in the league either.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My belief is that Fordham has always wanted to remain part of the PL in football. No piece of evidence is as convincing as the fact that despite the fact that they are going scholarship, they are adhering to the league's AI.

The trouble is that the foundations of Eastern Football are getting rocked and changing Fordham's playing field. When there was a 12 (or 14) team CAA out there and the A-10 not even close to re-sponsoring a football league, Fordham's choice was clear. Now, the CAA is 10 teams, with two freshly dropped, and the "Northeast Four" are wobbly. If the A-10 ever sponsored a football league again, Fordham has to be school one on that list. That would have happened whether Fordham pushed for scholarships or not, but already committing to scholarships has significantly strengthened their hand.

It's a strange situation for Fordham right now. They have to be looking at the CAA situation closely, but with Hofstra and Northeastern folding their programs, they cast a long shadow over Fordham's aspirations as well. A hasty jump to a new Yankee conference/A-10/America East conference might be a step towards that - or it could be a bridge to games against Army/Vanderbilt/etc. In this backdrop, a Patriot League with less restrictive scholarships - where does that stand in all of this? And will the League ever make it happen?

Obviously, I hope Fordham stays with the PL. But it's clear that it's going to be their choice as to what to do.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NCAA rules and changing prioities by Rutgers and Cuse is the reason why Colgate doesnt play them, not the PL. Colgate and Holy Cross can easily play the likes of William & Mary, Richmond, Nova, Delaware etc. Lafayette and especially Lehigh have played these school often in the regular season in recent years. The only one to blame for not playing these schools is Colgate's AD and administation.

The NCAA rule that made ~57 scholarships a "counter" is really to blame for all of this. FBS schools are much less likely to schedule a non-counter than a counter. Similarly, one valuable CAA OOC game is taken up (generally) with an FBS "play-up" game since they ARE counters, and make the programs money (unlike the PL's OOC games, for the most part). It limits the number of practical opponents PL teams can schedule, and it eats up the OOC schedules of potential FCS opponents.

Add to this that, as a seven team league, we have 5 OOC games a year, and it's clear why there are a lot of Big South/Ivy/NEC schools on the schedule. Add to that Colgate's remote location, and it's even MORE challenging. I'm not so quick to blame Colgate's AD for anything - they have a tough challenge every year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

My fear is that the TPTB at HC will look at this past season's success (i.e. playing the eventual NC tough etc) and come to the conclusion that "we don't need football scholarships, we're fine as is etc."

It's like this every year for the league, though. The PL gets an automatic qualifier; its representative always shows up to play in the first round even when it draws the eventual champion. But if things proceed the way they appear to be proceeding, none of the current PL teams will earn an auto bid. The PL will collapse or have too few teams, and any new scholarship league that includes Fordham/Colgate/Lehigh or whomever will not have an AQ for a couple years.

[BDKJMU]

It's like this every year for the league, though. The PL gets an automatic qualifier; its representative always shows up to play in the first round even when it draws the eventual champion. But if things proceed the way they appear to be proceeding, none of the current PL teams will earn an auto bid. The PL will collapse or have too few teams, and any new scholarship league that includes Fordham/Colgate/Lehigh or whomever will not have an AQ for a couple years.

Uh, Nova was up on Colgate 55-14 in the 4th qtr in the 1st round last yr when Nova put in their subs and Colgate got 2 garbage time TDs. I wouldn't call that showing up. And Nova lost in the next round to JMU....

[Franks Tanks]

Uh, Nova was up on Colgate 55-14 in the 4th qtr in the 1st round last yr when Nova put in their subs and Colgate got 2 garbage time TDs. I wouldn't call that showing up. And Nova lost in the next round to JMU....

That was the worst showing by a PL team in recent memory.


You are just another douchebag who stops by all the PL threads to downgrade the league. Why must every PL thread get polluted by posters who feel it is necessary to put-down the PL at every turn.

[colorless raider]

The CAA just wants to insure they get 4-5 teams in the playoffs every year so they focus on taking shots at their regional compettition which is us.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just a reminder, once again, of the closest thing to an "official" statement on all of this, back in July.

Link (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2009/division+i/patriot+league+discusses+football+scholarships_07_ 21_09_ncaa_news)

League philosophy is an issue, balanced against the practicality of being competitive with the (mostly) tax-and-spend CAA.

[ngineer]

Uh, Nova was up on Colgate 55-14 in the 4th qtr in the 1st round last yr when Nova put in their subs and Colgate got 2 garbage time TDs. I wouldn't call that showing up. And Nova lost in the next round to JMU....

Yeah, like your national championship is only by virtue a ridiculous penalty that allowed JMU seven shots to move the ball one yard into the endzone at Goodman.xsmhx

[Go...gate]

When the Patriot League formed Colgate's out of conference schedule was Rutgers, Army, Syracuse, Duke, William and Mary, New Hampshire and the Ivies. Now, none of the FBS schools will play us and we have dropped schools like William and Mary for schools like Monmouth (and we've lost to them). The world of eastern college football has changed. The Patriot League schools have fallen behind by not changing along with it. I think it is great that Fordham has forced the issue. I'm sick of the Patriot League being rightfully looked at as one of the weaker conferences in FCS and Colgate's reach games being against the Big South instead of the Big East (or at least the MAC). Title IX makes it hard but if you are a fan of Patriot League football you are a fan of scholarships.

Amen, brother.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Pards - you should be receiving an email with a survey from an independent research firm. It contains several questions specifically related to the athletic program. Try to catch your fellow alumni before they fill this thing out.

[Franks Tanks]

Pards - you should be receiving an email with a survey from an independent research firm. It contains several questions specifically related to the athletic program. Try to catch your fellow alumni before they fill this thing out.

I got it-- see our discussion on the Lafayette board.

Any idea of the nature of this survey?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I got it-- see our discussion on the Lafayette board.

Any idea of the nature of this survey?

It would be a guess. Obviously the college wants to be aware of its brand image, however. As it pertains to football - the survey can be used to provide an objective response to those (i.e. faculty, BOT) who are, justifiably, seeking empirical data to support ongoing commitment to D1 athletics (including football scholarships). Maybe the completion of the Taj Mahal of FCS football wasn't enough of a commitment!

Again - this is complete speculation on my part.

[Franks Tanks]

It would be a guess. Obviously the college wants to be aware of its brand image, however. As it pertains to football - the survey can be used to provide an objective response to those (i.e. faculty, BOT) who are, justifiably, seeking empirical data to support ongoing commitment to D1 athletics (including football scholarships). Maybe the completion of the Taj Mahal of FCS football wasn't enough of a commitment!

Again - this is complete speculation on my part.


You speculation is in line with everyone else's speculation.

We led the PL in attendance for the 2nd year in a row despite not having the big game at our place. How is that for interest and commitment in the program.

We also led the PL in basketball attendance for years until our team started to suck terribly thanks to the late adoption of B-ball scholarships. If the basketball teams just gets decent again we will be tops, or very close to the top, in basketball attendance as well.

[Sader87]

What were the PL attendence figures FT? I can't find the 2009 numbers.

HC really had some bad luck with weather for home games (as all teams did) this year. Weather permitting, I think HC could have had attendence in the 12,000-15,000 range for the Colgate and Lafayette games this year.

It's oft bemoaned amoungst HC alums, but HC really has to do a much better job marketing/advertising etc. its games in the greater Worcester area.

[Franks Tanks]

What were the PL attendence figures FT? I can't find the 2009 numbers.

HC really had some bad luck with weather for home games (as all teams did) this year. Weather permitting, I think HC could have had attendence in the 12,000-15,000 range for the Colgate and Lafayette games this year.

It's oft bemoaned amoungst HC alums, but HC really has to do a much better job marketing/advertising etc. its games in the greater Worcester area.

http://www.goleopards.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121709aaa.html

[DFW HOYA]

2009 Patriot League Attendance
1. LAFAYETTE - 8,289
2. Lehigh - 8,130
3. Holy Cross - 7,552
4. Colgate - 4,642
5. Fordham - 3,886
6. Bucknell - 3,018
7. Georgetown - 2,511

Does anyone have comparable numbers from 3-5 years back? I think most averages (outside Laf, HC and Georgetown) have slipped.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

2009 Patriot League Attendance
1. LAFAYETTE - 8,289
2. Lehigh - 8,130
3. Holy Cross - 7,552
4. Colgate - 4,642
5. Fordham - 3,886
6. Bucknell - 3,018
7. Georgetown - 2,511

Does anyone have comparable numbers from 3-5 years back? I think most averages (outside Laf, HC and Georgetown) have slipped.

I can say for certain that Lehigh's and Lafayette's have slipped. Lafayette and Lehigh's are so skewed by "The Rivalry" - the years they have it, they have been in the 10,000 range in years past (and at worst in the high 9,000s).

HC's went up for sure. Colgate's seems a little off from years past. Personally, I think their choice to have three night games was a bit of mistake in terms of attendance.

[UAalum72]

2009 Patriot League Attendance
1. LAFAYETTE - 8,289
2. Lehigh - 8,130
3. Holy Cross - 7,552
4. Colgate - 4,642
5. Fordham - 3,886
6. Bucknell - 3,018
7. Georgetown - 2,511

Does anyone have comparable numbers from 3-5 years back? I think most averages (outside Laf, HC and Georgetown) have slipped.
All the numbers for the previous eleven years. Go crazy.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/sports+and+championship/general+information/stats/football/attendance/index.html

[Sader87]

Here are 2003's:

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/football_records/Attendance/2003.pdf

Here are 1998's:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/sports+and+championship/general+information/stats/football/attendance/1998/1998iaaattendance.html


Got these from ncaa.com. Haven't really perused them yet but HC's attendence has been WAY down since we last had full scholarships.

[Franks Tanks]

I can say for certain that Lehigh's and Lafayette's have slipped. Lafayette and Lehigh's are so skewed by "The Rivalry" - the years they have it, they have been in the 10,000 range in years past (and at worst in the high 9,000s).

HC's went up for sure. Colgate's seems a little off from years past. Personally, I think their choice to have three night games was a bit of mistake in terms of attendance.

Lafayette's have gotten better since the new stadium.

I looked at 2001 quickly and it appears every school but Lafayette had better attendance in 2001.

I do think weather does have a lot to do with in. Nobody goes to a game on a rainy day in the PL.

[Franks Tanks]

Here are 2003's:

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/football_records/Attendance/2003.pdf

Here are 1998's:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/sports+and+championship/general+information/stats/football/attendance/1998/1998iaaattendance.html


Got these from ncaa.com. Haven't really perused them yet but HC's attendence has been WAY down since we last had full scholarships.


Looks like attendance is down across the board.

In 1998 36 schools averaged over 10k

in 2008 30 schools averaged over 10

[Sader87]

HC had to have an average attendence in the 15,000 range during the 80's/early 90's...all I have is anecdotal evidence but I attended multiple games at Fitton with attendence over 20,000 and not all were the BC home games either.