Penn Football - What a shame

[AAadict]

I have not seen Penn play football this year. Looking at their record and the fact that everyone else plays 2 weeks of football before they start (I understand...IVY academics 1st) it seems they would have been a major factor in the FCS playoffs this year. A close loss to Villanova but that was Penn's 1's game and an OT loss to Lafayette. Then 8 straight wins. Too bad Penn is not in the Playoffs this year.

[MplsBison]

Academics has nothing to do with it. There are several schools who are on par or beyond Ivy level that play FBS football like Stanford, Northwestern, etc.


It's simply a matter of the Ivy admin going way out of their way to prove to the world that they want no part of big time college football.


The hypocrites then allow the bball teams to go to the MBB tournament. xrolleyesx

[AAadict]

March Madness (bball) is not during exams such as Dec. FCS playoffs.

[SpidersSportsEditor]

March Madness (bball) is not during exams such as Dec. FCS playoffs.

Lame excuse. If the Ivy's gave a hoot about athletics I think they could push back exams for 50 or 60 kids.

[Wildcat80]

Exams are such a BS excuse. Check all the OTHER teams that continue during exams. Plus football could be managed to only fridays & saturdays unlike bball. The rest of the FCS manages thru exams...at least UNH does. I agree Penn could have defeated nova and others this year. Harvard in years past. Too bad they do not get to prove that academics & football can coexist.

[AAadict]

[QUOTE=Wildcat80;1478672]Exams are such a BS excuse.

Point taken. It would have been nice to see what Penn could have done in this years FCS playoffs. I think the entire Ivy League would love to see what Penn could do. How hard was it to play a Villanova team with 2 games under it's belt for your 1st game of the year?

[Schfourteenteen]

March Madness (bball) is not during exams such as Dec. FCS playoffs.

Who says they'd make it to December? xrolleyesx

[AAadict]

Who says they'd make it to December? xrolleyesx

?...Any team who plays the 1st round in Nov. commits to the final game in Dec.

[bonarae]

Academics has nothing to do with it. There are several schools who are on par or beyond Ivy level that play FBS football like Stanford, Northwestern, etc.


It's simply a matter of the Ivy admin going way out of their way to prove to the world that they want no part of big time college football.


The hypocrites then allow the bball teams to go to the MBB tournament. xrolleyesx
This is a complicated, never-ending question that has no final answer unless any of the Ivy Presidents explicitly answers our question.


Exams are such a BS excuse. Check all the OTHER teams that continue during exams. Plus football could be managed to only fridays & saturdays unlike bball. The rest of the FCS manages thru exams...at least UNH does. I agree Penn could have defeated nova and others this year. Harvard in years past. Too bad they do not get to prove that academics & football can coexist.

xchinscratchx How about the FBS teams that have high academic standards like Stanford, Northwestern etc? ALL FBS teams play in bowls if and only if you have winning records either overall or in their conference.


[QUOTE=Wildcat80;1478672]Exams are such a BS excuse.

Point taken. It would have been nice to see what Penn could have done in this years FCS playoffs. I think the entire Ivy League would love to see what Penn could do. How hard was it to play a Villanova team with 2 games under it's belt for your 1st game of the year?

Right.


?...Any team who plays the 1st round in Nov. commits to the final game in Dec.

I think the Presidents cannot commit to Chattanooga because of those exams (as they say) or may be afraid of their football teams being humiliated by the likes of Montana, Southern Illinois, etc. that's why they never send the Ivy champions to the playoffs.

[ngineer]

Have no use for Penn.xnonono2x

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's simply a matter of the Ivy admin going way out of their way to prove to the world that they want no part of big time college football.


I think Penn scheduled first, and it's a case of the rest of the world not wanting to fit into Penn's schedule, not the other way around. ;) Princeton, in fact, is known for setting its schedules decades, even generations, in advance. xreadx



I think the Presidents . . . may be afraid of their football teams being humiliated by the likes of Montana, Southern Illinois, etc. that's why they never send the Ivy champions to the playoffs.

The Patriot League gets humiliated by the likes of those teams year after year. xrotatehx You should try it, it's fun! xnodx It takes some getting used to, and the the big uglies in the CAA, etc. will never give you props just for trying. xsmhx But once you get used to it, the embarrassment factor wears off - especially when you look around and realize that all those other guys now work for you. xrolleyesx

[CFBfan]

I have not seen Penn play football this year. Looking at their record and the fact that everyone else plays 2 weeks of football before they start (I understand...IVY academics 1st) it seems they would have been a major factor in the FCS playoffs this year. A close loss to Villanova but that was Penn's 1's game and an OT loss to Lafayette. Then 8 straight wins. Too bad Penn is not in the Playoffs this year.

I saw 2 of their games (Dartmouth & Princeton) in my opinion they would get crushed in the post season. also imo PL teams like HC & LC, probably Colgate even FU would bury them......I say FU because their secondary, especialy their corners looked very weak and FU has a passing game. just my opinion.

[Bogus Megapardus]

imo PL teams like HC & LC, probably Colgate even FU would bury them......

Lafayette played Penn this year. It was 17 - 3 at the half but Penn came back and tied it in the third quarter. Lafayette won in OT with a FG after Penn missed one from about 40 yards. It was a typical Penn/Lafayette defensive game. I think Penn was a little surprised with Lafayette's new passing game, then made good adjustments at halftime.

[SpidersSportsEditor]

The Patriot League gets humiliated by the likes of those teams year after year. xrotatehx You should try it, it's fun! xnodx It takes some getting used to, and the the big uglies in the CAA, etc. will never give you props just for trying. xsmhx But once you get used to it, the embarrassment factor wears off - especially when you look around and realize that all those other guys now work for you. xrolleyesx[/QUOTE]

Hey hey hey, there are some pretty darn good schools in the CAA as well. xreadx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hey hey hey, there are some pretty darn good schools in the CAA as well. xreadx

And Richmond is one of them! Which is why Richmond, W&M and Villanova should . . . . oh, never mind. It'll never happen. :)

[DJOM]

Imagine the Ivy League actually tries to have student-athletes who not only excel on the field; but also in the classroom. What a concept. For 98% of the students at this level football is 4, maybe 5 years--an education is forever.

[MplsBison]

Imagine the Ivy League actually tries to have student-athletes who not only excel on the field; but also in the classroom. What a concept. For 98% of the students at this level football is 4, maybe 5 years--an education is forever.

What does that have to do with skipping the playoffs and refusing to play a full non-conference schedule against the rest of FCS in the regular season?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Imagine the Ivy League actually tries to have student-athletes who not only excel on the field; but also in the classroom. What a concept. For 98% of the students at this level football is 4, maybe 5 years--an education is forever.

Begotten in the Ivy image, the Patriot League used to abstain from the FCS playoffs as well. Now it doesn't. Whatever.

[CFBfan]

Imagine the Ivy League actually tries to have student-athletes who not only excel on the field; but also in the classroom. What a concept. For 98% of the students at this level football is 4, maybe 5 years--an education is forever.

you missed the entire point of this thread

[Bogus Megapardus]

you missed the entire point of this thread

One point being that Penn could have hung with Nova (or whomever) in the FCS playoffs without stripping the gloss from its ivy.

[MplsBison]

One point being that Penn could have hung with Nova (or whomever) in the FCS playoffs without stripping the gloss from its ivy.

And just what does that mean?

[bonarae]

I think Penn scheduled first, and it's a case of the rest of the world not wanting to fit into Penn's schedule, not the other way around. ;) Princeton, in fact, is known for setting its schedules decades, even generations, in advance. xreadx

The Patriot League gets humiliated by the likes of those teams year after year. xrotatehx You should try it, it's fun! xnodx It takes some getting used to, and the the big uglies in the CAA, etc. will never give you props just for trying. xsmhx But once you get used to it, the embarrassment factor wears off - especially when you look around and realize that all those other guys now work for you. xrolleyesx

That's the problem with the Ivies: they tend to schedule teams that in their opinion can have easy wins. Case in point: Princeton/Hampton or The Citadel, Princeton got humiliated by both.

UMass stopped playing Harvard because the games escalated into violence by fans and Harvard was humiliated by UMass in virtually all of their games. UNH and UConn stopped/will have stopped playing their in-state Ivy counterparts just because the Ivy counterparts got tired of being humiliated by them.

Lesson learned by the Ivies: schedule mid-majors instead. :( xnonono2x


I saw 2 of their games (Dartmouth & Princeton) in my opinion they would get crushed in the post season. also imo PL teams like HC & LC, probably Colgate even FU would bury them......I say FU because their secondary, especialy their corners looked very weak and FU has a passing game. just my opinion.

Furman? How do you compare South (and maybe Midwest and West Coast)-based teams with Northeast-based teams or even the Ivies when they don't play the likes of these AT ALL?

[UNHFan]

Ill leave it at this... U of Penn has more Left Wing nuts then the Hockey team requires!!! It is going to get worse!!

[DJOM]

I didn't miss the point of the thread. I, personally, don't agree that the Ivys should skip the playoffs. I believe, they are trying to keep athletics in their place. Its a shame that Princeton can not build upon its record of 28 National Championships but it is what it is.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ill leave it at this... U of Penn has more Left Wing nuts then the Hockey team requires!!! It is going to get worse!!

Ummm . . . I believe that the media guide stipulates "University of Pennsylvania" upon the first use and "Penn" thereafter. "U. of Penn" is prohibited. No soup for you!

[CFBfan]

I didn't miss the point of the thread. I, personally, don't agree that the Ivys should skip the playoffs. I believe, they are trying to keep athletics in their place. Its a shame that Princeton can not build upon its record of 28 National Championships but it is what it is.

here's what you "said":

"Imagine the Ivy League actually tries to have student-athletes who not only excel on the field; but also in the classroom. What a concept. For 98% of the students at this level football is 4, maybe 5 years--an education is forever. "

SO.....you DID miss the point of the thread, now go read a book!

[Bogus Megapardus]

And just what does that mean?

It means that Penn needn't sacrifice its scholastic reputation or place its student-athletes at academic risk should it choose to participate in the FCS playoffs. The only "risk" might be the players' desire to increase competitiveness once they get a taste if it. That can lead to those dreaded merit-based scholarship discussions! xnonox

[Husky Alum]

UMass stopped playing Harvard because the games escalated into violence by fans and Harvard was humiliated by UMass in virtually all of their games. UNH and UConn stopped/will have stopped playing their in-state Ivy counterparts just because the Ivy counterparts got tired of being humiliated by them.
?

So why did you stop playing Northeastern - when we guaranteed y'all an extra home game every other year? You had a 3-1 series edge in our last deal.

Also, this exam thing is a crock. When I was with the NU hoops team, we played in the NCAA's in Syracuse in 1991. Princeton was in our sub regional, and I believe it was midterms at Princeton (as it was at most of the other schools in the sub regional).

The NCAA set up (and still does, to the best of my knowledge) exam rooms in a hotel at the tournament site. I had to give my professors envelopes to put my exams and blue books in, and the room was proctored by members of the NCAA.

While it was disconcerting to have to take an accounting exam with a UCLA cheerleader on my left and a Mississippi State cheerleader on my right, there were most certainly athletes and support staff from Princeton in the room with us.

I don't get it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I believe, they are trying to keep athletics in their place.

And that's the whole problem - that athletics (and, by extension, athletes) are something that needs to be bastardized, put "in its place". Until that changes, the IL will continue to slide into irrelevance in all sports, not just football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

And that's the whole problem - that athletics (and, by extension, athletes) are something that needs to be bastardized, put "in its place". Until that changes, the IL will continue to slide into irrelevance in all sports, not just football.

xnonox Not true. The IL will dominate in squash and water polo for at least several more years, imho. xcoffeex

[DFW HOYA]

As the Ivy League wrings its hands over the post-season and a football schedule after the third week of November impinging upon exams, Stanford stepped over Charlie Weis on national TV.

Stanford can play USC and ND and still maintain the best academic-athletic balance in the nation. If the IL really wants to be embarassed, schedule a game with the Cardinal.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As the Ivy League wrings its hands over the post-season and a football schedule after the third week of November impinging upon exams, Stanford stepped over Charlie Weis on national TV.

Stanford can play USC and ND and still maintain the best academic-athletic balance in the nation. If the IL really wants to be embarassed, schedule a game with the Cardinal.

On the other end of the spectrum, of course . . .

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6f/MIT.gif


. . . and you find it curious when someone remarks that they didn't know Georgetown had a football team . . . .

[MplsBison]

It means that Penn needn't sacrifice its scholastic reputation or place its student-athletes at academic risk should it choose to participate in the FCS playoffs. The only "risk" might be the players' desire to increase competitiveness once they get a taste if it. That can lead to those dreaded merit-based scholarship discussions! xnonox

There is no risk to either scholastic reputation or putting student-atheltes at academic risk by participating in the FCS playoffs.

[DFW HOYA]

There is no risk to either scholastic reputation or putting student-atheltes at academic risk by participating in the FCS playoffs.

There is a perceived impact to the gravitas of the Harvard-Yale game, which drives the Ivy ban on post-season participation.

[bonarae]

And that's the whole problem - that athletics (and, by extension, athletes) are something that needs to be bastardized, put "in its place". Until that changes, the IL will continue to slide into irrelevance in all sports, not just football.

True. Something radical needs to be done to save Ivy athletics from obscurity. xnonono2x


xnonox Not true. The IL will dominate in squash and water polo for at least several more years, imho. xcoffeex

But not too many schools play in those sports. xrulesx


As the Ivy League wrings its hands over the post-season and a football schedule after the third week of November impinging upon exams, Stanford stepped over Charlie Weis on national TV.

Stanford can play USC and ND and still maintain the best academic-athletic balance in the nation. If the IL really wants to be embarassed, schedule a game with the Cardinal.

Stanford is IMO unwilling to go beyond scheduling UC Davis and Cal Poly (or any other FCS school in California for that matter) for its 12th game. I think Stanford has FBS teams on its non-conference schedule for 2010 (the future schedules section of its website isn't updated anymore.)


There is no risk to either scholastic reputation or putting student-atheltes at academic risk by participating in the FCS playoffs.

We should realize that the Ivy Presidents' minds are towards academics only. That should change as well.


There is a perceived impact to the gravitas of the Harvard-Yale game, which drives the Ivy ban on post-season participation.

Much like the SWAC "Classics", eh? xcoffeex But what is the difference between the reasons of the SWAC's and the Ivy League's postseason bans? The SWAC is for financial reasons, I know, but what about the Ivies? It's unclear to us fans.

[MplsBison]

There is a perceived impact to the gravitas of the Harvard-Yale game, which drives the Ivy ban on post-season participation.

Perceived impact in what sense?

Are 10k less people going to show up to the H-Y game because the Ivy League champion will be in the FCS playoffs?

No.

[Ivytalk]

As the Ivy League wrings its hands over the post-season and a football schedule after the third week of November impinging upon exams, Stanford stepped over Charlie Weis on national TV.

Stanford can play USC and ND and still maintain the best academic-athletic balance in the nation. If the IL really wants to be embarassed, schedule a game with the Cardinal.

Actually, one of the greatest upsets in college sports history occurred in the 1998 NCAA playoffs when the #16 seed Harvard women's team upset #1 seed Stanford. According to admissions people I've talked to, Harvard loses more quality California FB recruits to Stanford than any other school, and vice versa.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is a perceived impact to the gravitas of the Harvard-Yale game, which drives the Ivy ban on post-season participation.

That perception is baloney, and all I need to do is point to Lehigh/Lafayette for proof. My perception has always been that the playoffs saved, and even expanded, the meaning "The Rivalry" in the late 1990s. Before the PL, the entire point of the season was to beat the other team, and the whole emphasis was on the excess and weird "traditions" that grew from that. With PL titles and national autobids on the line, some of the more destructive "traditions" went away to be replaced with the sense that more is at stake than just pride.

When I look at Harvard/Yale today, I see a game that is a niche product, something that has no national significance. As a result, the fans' focus isn't even on an Ivy League title, just the idea that we need to drink heavily and destroy stuff because that's what's always been done. That would change overnight if "The Game" had some national significance.

I don't know the ratings, but I'd be willing to bet that the viewership for Lehigh/Lafayette nationally outperformed Harvard/Yale. Just a guess.

[Ivytalk]

That perception is baloney, and all I need to do is point to Lehigh/Lafayette for proof. My perception has always been that the playoffs saved, and even expanded, the meaning "The Rivalry" in the late 1990s. Before the PL, the entire point of the season was to beat the other team, and the whole emphasis was on the excess and weird "traditions" that grew from that. With PL titles and national autobids on the line, some of the more destructive "traditions" went away to be replaced with the sense that more is at stake than just pride.

When I look at Harvard/Yale today, I see a game that is a niche product, something that has no national significance. As a result, the fans' focus isn't even on an Ivy League title, just the idea that we need to drink heavily and destroy stuff because that's what's always been done. That would change overnight if "The Game" had some national significance.

I don't know the ratings, but I'd be willing to bet that the viewership for Lehigh/Lafayette nationally outperformed Harvard/Yale. Just a guess.

LFN, with the national "branding" that H-Y has, I can't believe that your statement is correct. It would certainly be easier to find a California sports bar with a Harvard-Yale cable feed than L-L. That said, I do agree that The Game is now a "niche product," although it's a pretty good niche to be in.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Actually, one of the greatest upsets in college sports history occurred in the 1998 NCAA playoffs when the #16 seed Harvard women's team upset #1 seed Stanford. According to admissions people I've talked to, Harvard loses more quality California FB recruits to Stanford than any other school, and vice versa.

That makes perfect sense. Assuming the student has the wherewithal to attend either, is it the availability of merit scholarships, the nature of the institution, the athletic program as a whole, or simply the location? There are dozens of other factors, of course, but the Stanford - Harvard tug-of-war seems to be aptly representative of a discussion that has been permeating these threads (and contributing further to my already-substantial personal ill-repute).

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't know the ratings, but I'd be willing to bet that the viewership for Lehigh/Lafayette nationally outperformed Harvard/Yale. Just a guess.


LFN, with the national "branding" that H-Y has, I can't believe that your statement is correct. It would certainly be easier to find a California sports bar with a Harvard-Yale cable feed than L-L. That said, I do agree that The Game is now a "niche product," although it's a pretty good niche to be in.

Hmmm . . . Lafayette-Lehigh takes on a whole new dimension when the AQ is at stake, as would Harvard-Yale. Harvard & Yale are much better known names, but I couldn't say about the size of their respective football-watching alumni bases. Army-Navy outdistances both, though.

LFN - were Lafayette-Lehigh played at a larger neutral site - say Franklin Field - do you think its draw would equal H-Y?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hmmm . . . Lafayette-Lehigh takes on a whole new dimension when the AQ is at stake, as would Harvard-Yale. Harvard & Yale are much better known names, but I couldn't say about the size of their respective football-watching alumni bases. Army-Navy outdistances both, though.

LFN - were Lafayette-Lehigh played at a larger neutral site - say Franklin Field - do you think its draw would equal H-Y?

Funny you mention that Bogus - I was wondering about that this year, though I didn't mention it on my blog at all. What might a L/L game draw at Franklin Field, or even the Linc?

In the Yale Bowl, "The Game" had 52,000 announced fans. Would L/L eclipse that? I wonder sometimes.

[Ivytalk]

That makes perfect sense. Assuming the student has the wherewithal to attend either, is it the availability of merit scholarships, the nature of the institution, the athletic program as a whole, or simply the location? There are dozens of other factors, of course, but the Stanford - Harvard tug-of-war seems to be aptly representative of a discussion that has been permeating these threads (and contributing further to my already-substantial personal ill-repute).

I've heard that geography plays a substantial role in keeping California recruits "at home," in addition to the lure of a Pac-10 schedule. Stanford's campus is beautiful, and the weather is better. Stanford certainly has no meaningful academic edge, and financial aid is a non-issue these days.

And what's this about "already-substantial personal ill-repute"?xconfusedx

[DFW HOYA]

I don't know the ratings, but I'd be willing to bet that the viewership for Lehigh/Lafayette nationally outperformed Harvard/Yale. Just a guess.

H-Y was seen nationally on Versus--not exacly the World Wide Leader, but a lot more reach than Channel 69 and SE2.

And speaking of same, when was the last PL game seen on an ESPN network? When will the league commit to a conference-wide TV package, or does the LSN's still have a veto power on this?

[Bogus Megapardus]

And speaking of same, when was the last PL game seen on an ESPN network?

Colgate/Princeton. Wish we could take a mulligan on that one.

[DFW HOYA]

Colgate/Princeton. Wish we could take a mulligan on that one.


How about the last PL game, not just a PL opponent?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

H-Y was seen nationally on Versus--not exacly the World Wide Leader, but a lot more reach than Channel 69 and SE2.

LL was also on Fox College Sports - nationally - as well as regionally on LSN and MASN, among others. I'd love to see the numbers adding all the L/L numbers combined and the Harvard/Yale numbers..

[CFBfan]

LL was also on Fox College Sports - nationally - as well as regionally on LSN and MASN, among others. I'd love to see the numbers adding all the L/L numbers combined and the Harvard/Yale numbers..

I would think the Harvard/Yale has a much broader appeal the L/L ??
outside of the PA area does anyone (other than alum's) really care about L/L? I would like to think so but not so sure......

[Bogus Megapardus]

I would think the Harvard/Yale has a much broader appeal the L/L ??
outside of the PA area does anyone (other than alum's) really care about L/L? I would like to think so but not so sure......

There are Lehigh/Lafayette viewing parties all across the nation and (at least that I know of) in London and Kuala Lumpur. Their graduates are everywhere.

[DFW HOYA]

LL was also on Fox College Sports - nationally - as well as regionally on LSN and MASN, among others. I'd love to see the numbers adding all the L/L numbers combined and the Harvard/Yale numbers..

It was not on Fox in the Midwest, that's for sure.

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/1523311

[CFBfan]

There are Lehigh/Lafayette viewing parties all across the nation and (at least that I know of) in London and Kuala Lumpur. Their graduates are everywhere.

yes, i had said "other than alum's". I am a PL fan but have to think that Harvard/Yale has a broader appeal and recognition than any PL matchup.....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

yes, i had said "other than alum's". I am a PL fan but have to think that Harvard/Yale has a broader appeal and recognition than any PL matchup.....

That's not an unreasonable assumption. However, it's my belief that a lot more people tuned into L/L nationally due to its playoff ramifications. You get your L/L alums, sure. But you also get Liberty fans, Weber State fans, SFA fans...

[bonarae]

That perception is baloney, and all I need to do is point to Lehigh/Lafayette for proof. My perception has always been that the playoffs saved, and even expanded, the meaning "The Rivalry" in the late 1990s. Before the PL, the entire point of the season was to beat the other team, and the whole emphasis was on the excess and weird "traditions" that grew from that. With PL titles and national autobids on the line, some of the more destructive "traditions" went away to be replaced with the sense that more is at stake than just pride.

When I look at Harvard/Yale today, I see a game that is a niche product, something that has no national significance. As a result, the fans' focus isn't even on an Ivy League title, just the idea that we need to drink heavily and destroy stuff because that's what's always been done. That would change overnight if "The Game" had some national significance.

I don't know the ratings, but I'd be willing to bet that the viewership for Lehigh/Lafayette nationally outperformed Harvard/Yale. Just a guess.

xcoffeex Let me think of a minute for this. Good thing L/L had some fortunate supporters (i.e. the university administration as well as the boosters) to take the game to the next level (i.e. including the road to Chattanooga). Not so with the Ivies (no administration support somewhat).

This has to do more with the university administration rather than with the athletics department itself, so if they are not supporting athletics, where does their support go? Research and the like? Probably.