Fordham to the CAA?

[UncleSam]

On last night's final radio show UD coach KC Keeler made the following comment that the CAA may be looking to bring another team in

"someone from up in that New York area".

Fordham seems to fit, but maybe Albany could also be in the mix.

[93henfan]

If you listened to the show, Albany was not mentioned. He says Fordham makes the most sense.

At the beginning of the final segment, he's asked about the 2010 schedule and changes that will need to be made based on Northeastern's departure. He mentioned that the original plan (as reported here) called for a revised 11-team schedule, which included Delaware traveling to Hofstra vice Northeastern.

Keeler stated that after the CAA conferences this week, that plan has now been scrapped. He says the CAA is leaning toward adding another team for football in 2010 "from the New York area". When pressed, he said Fordham makes the most sense.

Here's the link to the full show: http://www.wdsd.com/pages/bhensfootball.html?feed=374465&article=6273981

[Wildcat80]

Very very interesting. Surprised that the league would jump this quickly to this but I like keeping another northern team in the league. The allure of CAA football should help Fordham's recruiting too. Just hope UNH gets a redone stadium before they do!?

[CFBfan]

On last night's final radio show UD coach KC Keeler made the following comment that the CAA may be looking to bring another team in

"someone from up in that New York area".

Fordham seems to fit, but maybe Albany could also be in the mix.

was shot down in another thread BUT, FU will wind up in the CAA

[Redwyn]

was shot down in another thread BUT, FU will wind up in the CAA

A bit resigned at this point but still pulling for SBU. Geographic and established in conference-rival, full scholly offering, success this season....don't see what would be pulling against us...

[CFBfan]

A bit resigned at this point but still pulling for SBU. Geographic and established in conference-rival, full scholly offering, success this season....don't see what would be pulling against us...

Is the SBU admin. supporting the move? is the fb staff pushing for?

[Redwyn]

Is the SBU admin. supporting the move? is the fb staff pushing for?

I can't really say honestly. The only actual talk in the SBU administration is some idealized talk about the Big East...which I think can actually happen, but not for decades. There was an interview with AD Fiore about the CAA last summer and he said it would certainly make sense but their focus was on the Big South now (translation - YES, I'd love to make the move but is there room?).

[Seawolf97]

While the CAA would be nice . I think it would be a little shaky bailing on the Big South now.
We just won a piece of the Title so to pack our bags and run doesnt look very good. But we will see. We have the stadium, new field surface, new scoreboard and a full scholarship program. We shall see >

[Go...gate]

While the CAA would be nice . I think it would be a little shaky bailing on the Big South now.
We just won a piece of the Title so to pack our bags and run doesnt look very good. But we will see. We have the stadium, new field surface, new scoreboard and a full scholarship program. We shall see >

Are you now at 63?

[UNHFan]

Please not Fordham!!! Full Scholarship only PLEASE!!!

[DFW HOYA]

Please not Fordham!!! Full Scholarship only PLEASE!!!

Fordham is basically at 60 once they convert aid. if the CAA asked them for 63, it's not that big a jump.

What Fordham will really need is a second side to Jack Coffey Field.

[UNHFan]

Fordham is basically at 60 once they convert aid. if the CAA asked them for 63, it's not that big a jump.

What Fordham will really need is a second side to Jack Coffey Field.

Hey... Need a favor I am not being an ass.... can you convert that so I understand what you mean?

[DFW HOYA]

Hey... Need a favor I am not being an ass.... can you convert that so I understand what you mean?


OK, let me try again:

1. Fordham spends $4.7 million a year on FB, enough for 60 financial aid equivalencies among 85 players. They are the one PL school which can easily covnert the financial aid awards to outright scholarships because of its funding mondel. Therefore, Fordham could be at 60 scholarships rather quickly.

2. Jack Coffey Field, Fordham's on-campus stadium, only holds 7,000 seats on one side because they use the field for baseball as well. If they are playing in the CAA at some future point they will need more than 7,000 seats.

[UNHFan]

DFW Thanks!! For understanding... and very impressed with your knowledge!

[Redwyn]

Are you now at 63?

Yes

[Franks Tanks]

Can someone explian to me why the CAA wants to expand with 2 more teams coming very soon?

[Dane96]

This makes no sense at all..but I can confirm that Fordham board has been contacted regarding this potential move.

[Go...gate]

This makes no sense at all..but I can confirm that Fordham board has been contacted regarding this potential move.

Maybe the CAA really wants a bigger chunk of the NYC media market.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Can someone explian to me why the CAA wants to expand with 2 more teams coming very soon?

LET US EXAMINE..........EVEN NUMBERS....xcoffeex....BRAWK/OBAMA/BIDEN!!

[seattlespider]

Can someone explian to me why the CAA wants to expand with 2 more teams coming very soon?

Well, right now we have uneven divisions, which is creating scheduling problems. I'm guessing the CAA doesn't think that is something they want to deal with.

[zilla]

If Fordham does accept a CAA offer, how would the Patriot League counter their void?

A Fordham departure would leave the PL with only six teams, right? Would the Patriot expand? If so, which schools would be their prime candidates?

I'll go ahead & apologize if this has already been discussed. :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Take this with a grain of salt (since I'm a PL fan and I want very much for Fordham to stay in the PL), but doesn't the addition of Stony Brook make a lot more sense?

Stony Brook's is 1) a public school, 2) their facilities are more in line with the rest of the CAA, and 3) they are likely to be much more receptive to an all-sports CAA invite than Fordham since they're in America East (Fordham's in the A-10).

I understand Fordham could potentially plug a hole in the schedule next year, but IMO the CAA is not helped all that much with the addition of another AFFILIATE member, especially in the North. If anything, it strengthens the hand of folks in the A-10 should they want to sponsor football once again. With Stony Brook as an all-sports CAA member, you would be strengthening the CAA North.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If Fordham does accept a CAA offer, how would the Patriot League counter their void?

A Fordham departure would leave the PL with only six teams, right? Would the Patriot expand? If so, which schools would be their prime candidates?

I'll go ahead & apologize if this has already been discussed. :)

The options are not great, but you have to think Marist would be a prime possibility. Others might include Bryant, VMI or Monmouth.

[Redwyn]

Take this with a grain of salt (since I'm a PL fan and I want very much for Fordham to stay in the PL), but doesn't the addition of Stony Brook make a lot more sense?

Stony Brook's is 1) a public school, 2) their facilities are more in line with the rest of the CAA, and 3) they are likely to be much more receptive to an all-sports CAA invite than Fordham since they're in America East (Fordham's in the A-10).

I understand Fordham could potentially plug a hole in the schedule next year, but IMO the CAA is not helped all that much with the addition of another AFFILIATE member, especially in the North. If anything, it strengthens the hand of folks in the A-10 should they want to sponsor football once again. With Stony Brook as an all-sports CAA member, you would be strengthening the CAA North.

It would be quite intriguing if SBU made an all sports move. It'd make absolute sense though, and certainly leave them in a MUCH better conference affiliation. Will be following this.

[Uncle Buck]

I would love to see SBU make the move for all sports, but the one downer by moving football as early as next year, playoffs. Isn't the Big South and AQ conference next year? SBU shared the title already this season and could obviously find the path of least resistance to the playoffs through the Big South. Switch to the CAA and their playoff prospects drop significantly, and i mean significantly. You have to wonder if that is a consideration when it comes to exposure. Is it better to make the playoffs from a weaker conference, or get beaten up with national exposure in a stronger conference.

[superman7515]

A bit resigned at this point but still pulling for SBU.

"It's beautiful. Like no other city I've ever seen. It's like... Albany... only clean."

[Schfourteenteen]

Would the CAA be looking for an all sports member? I see Fordham as the easiest maneuver for the CAA at this point.

Fordham replaces Northeastern football. The CAA keeps an even number of teams throughout the other sports. IF there is ever a split, Fordham would likely be out the door with their A-10 affiliation without the CAA booting them.

IMO Bringing Stony Brook in as a full member now handcuffs the CAA's options down the road.

[DFW HOYA]

Can someone explian to me why the CAA wants to expand with 2 more teams coming very soon?


Two of its all-sports members (Old Dominion, Georgia State) have added football and the CAA is obligated to accept them, as would be the case if American announced it was adding football and the PL would expand accordingly.

[89Hen]

they are likely to be much more receptive to an all-sports CAA invite than Fordham since they're in America East (Fordham's in the A-10).

With Stony Brook as an all-sports CAA member, you would be strengthening the CAA North.
AFAIK the CAA doesn't want more all sports members. Don't forget about VCU, UNC-W, GMU, Drexel... they don't need more members for other sports. Unless NU leaves the CAA entirely, there's really not a spot. xpeacex

[DFW HOYA]

Unless NU leaves the CAA entirely, there's really not a spot. xpeacex

And perhaps this is where this is headed. The cost of travel across the CAA isn't cheap and NU is not as competitive in a number of CAA sports. Long term, they may be seeing a football-free America East as a more strategic home.

Fordham, on the other hand, has never made much headway in the A-10, esp. basketball.

Secondarily this could give the CAA additional visibility in NYC that it has not enjoyed to date with Hofstra.

[LUHawker]

The options are not great, but you have to think Marist would be a prime possibility. Others might include Bryant, VMI or Monmouth.

Oh Nooo! Not again, LFN. Please, pretty please, no more talk about Marist. I don't understand why you have such a hard-on for Marist, but Marist does nothing for the PL except add a body.

Seriously, based upon the commentary from the PL that it would be reviewing the scholly issue this December and not next December says to me that Fordham informed them that they've received an invite/inquiry to join from the CAA and that they need a decision now and can't wait until next year for the PL to decide.

I infer from this that Fordham would rather stay in the PL and if the PL can make some accomodation, it will as the additional travel/facilities expenses required for the CAA are not prefered by those on Rose Hill.

[dukie]

I don't post here much but this is a subject I have followed very closely since UR left the conference in 2000. This move makes a lot of sense to me. It could very well be that the CAA and the A10 are working together instead of against each other. Bringing Fordham in allows them to upgrade their program and adds another A10 school bringing the total to four. This also allows the northern schools to have another playing partner to help cut down travel costs.

I feel the A10 will form its own conference one day and it will be a 1AA conference. The question is whether or not some or all of the CAA schools will move on to 1A at some point in time.

The football schools are definitely a mix of large growing state schools and smaller private schools. 1A is not possible for the private schools but is for the larger state schools. While having 12 teams seems too large when compared to other conferences, it makes sense if schools are being honest with each other about their future goals for their programs.

Perhaps the school Presidents are trying to avoid the mess UR left the other CAA schools with in 2000 when they negotiated behind the scenes with the A10 to leave the CAA. With Bruno out and a new commissioner, perhaps the working relationship between the two conferences is now better. I do know ex-UR AD Boone and the associate commissioner for basketball are former A10 guys and now working in the CAA offices. Perhaps having them in the CAA office is allowing for a colaborative effort between the two conferences.

This seems like a good move for everyone involved. Fordham wants to play scholarship football and is already transitioning out of the PL. The CAA wants schools committed to football long term. The CAA has existing A10 schools already in the conference and needs another school to even out the scheduling. Fordham is a better rival and travel partner for Hofstra than Northeastern was. This seems like a good fit for all involved.

[Fordham]

Take this with a grain of salt (since I'm a PL fan and I want very much for Fordham to stay in the PL), but doesn't the addition of Stony Brook make a lot more sense?

Stony Brook's is 1) a public school, 2) their facilities are more in line with the rest of the CAA, and 3) they are likely to be much more receptive to an all-sports CAA invite than Fordham since they're in America East (Fordham's in the A-10).

I understand Fordham could potentially plug a hole in the schedule next year, but IMO the CAA is not helped all that much with the addition of another AFFILIATE member, especially in the North. If anything, it strengthens the hand of folks in the A-10 should they want to sponsor football once again. With Stony Brook as an all-sports CAA member, you would be strengthening the CAA North.

I agree

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't post here much but this is a subject I have followed very closely since UR left the conference in 2000. This move makes a lot of sense to me. It could very well be that the CAA and the A10 are working together instead of against each other. Bringing Fordham in allows them to upgrade their program and adds another A10 school bringing the total to four. This also allows the northern schools to have another playing partner to help cut down travel costs.

I feel the A10 will form its own conference one day and it will be a 1AA conference. The question is whether or not some or all of the CAA schools will move on to 1A at some point in time.

Why would the CAA actively work to break up the mega-conference that they themselves have gone to great pains to create and keep together? Remember toothat the CAA took over operations from the A-10 originally. Why would the CAA do anything to help the creation of another competing league?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Oh Nooo! Not again, LFN. Please, pretty please, no more talk about Marist. I don't understand why you have such a hard-on for Marist, but Marist does nothing for the PL except add a body.

If indeed Fordham is leaving, then a body is exactly what the PL needs. Yesterday.

[LUHawker]

If indeed Fordham is leaving, then a body is exactly what the PL needs. Yesterday.

We must agree to disagree on this point. Losing Fordham does not imminently imperil the PL's auto-bid designation, so explain to me exactly why the PL needs a body yesterday?

If no other team is planning to go somewhere else, why is it absolutely imperative to have another team, particularly a weak sister?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We must agree to disagree on this point. Losing Fordham does not imminently imperil the PL's auto-bid designation, so explain to me exactly why the PL needs a body yesterday?

If no other team is planning to go somewhere else, why is it absolutely imperative to have another team, particularly a weak sister?

But losing Georgetown would. In any event, we agree to disagree.

/thread

[Franks Tanks]

Two of its all-sports members (Old Dominion, Georgia State) have added football and the CAA is obligated to accept them, as would be the case if American announced it was adding football and the PL would expand accordingly.

I understand that. I meant expand in addition to the two schools above, especially an affiliate memberf

[Bogus Megapardus]

Marist: My daughter goes to Marist. She chose Marist over Fordham (both offered her substantial academic scholarships). I am very fond of Marist; its students and faculty are very serious and the focus first and foremost is on academics. I know quite a bit about the school. Having said that, Marist does not appear likely to evolve to the point where it will fit within the PL.

Fordham: There is no way Fordham stays in the PL. It bolted for other sports because it viewed itself as "better" than the PL. It now fancies itself as having the clout to grab the PL by the n*ts and twist as it pertains football. I am shocked the the PL even would consider reinstating Fordham, shocked that the the league office has not "suggested" the member schools replace Fordham on all schedules, effective immediately.

The CAA is much better for Fordham. Fordham's complaint always has been about academics; it does not wish to comply with the PL academic index. Academically, the CAA ranges from W&M/Richmond/Villanova at the upper end to a floor that is as low as Fordham wishes to sink, so Fordham can find its academic comfort level without PL constraints. It won't maintain its Ivy and Patriot League traditional rivalries, but it looks as if very few really care about that.

I do not want Fordham in the Patriot League and I am hopeful that Fordham severs all ties to the league at once. Were Fordham still a full member subject to the guidelines and protocols of other member, I would think differently. But it is not.

[blukeys]

Why would the CAA actively work to break up the mega-conference that they themselves have gone to great pains to create and keep together? Remember toothat the CAA took over operations from the A-10 originally. Why would the CAA do anything to help the creation of another competing league?

I agree. More important is why would anyone who had experience with the fiasco the A-10 was for football want to repeat the mistake??

[IaaScribe]

Stony Brook's contract with the Big South runs two more seasons and I believe there's a buyout involved on SBU's end if they leave before then. If Stony Brook would leave, the Big South would lose its automatic bid because Presbyterian is still not fully Division I. It was a marriage of convenience from the beginning. SBU needed a full-scholarship home and an eventual path to the playoffs. The Big South needed that sixth team to make the league playoff eligible in time for the expanded playoffs. I imagine the Big South made it quite difficult for SBU to leave before the end of the 2011 season.

[Seawolf97]

Stony Brook's contract with the Big South runs two more seasons and I believe there's a buyout involved on SBU's end if they leave before then. If Stony Brook would leave, the Big South would lose its automatic bid because Presbyterian is still not fully Division I. It was a marriage of convenience from the beginning. SBU needed a full-scholarship home and an eventual path to the playoffs. The Big South needed that sixth team to make the league playoff eligible in time for the expanded playoffs. I imagine the Big South made it quite difficult for SBU to leave before the end of the 2011 season.

Exactly my thoughts. Not only do we have two more years of our contract with the Big South we just won a share of the Title. To bail out now does make any financial or political sense. We have a full scholarship team and state of the art facilities. Word also has it that stadium expansion to 10k plus is also in the works.
So my guess we stay put in the Big South which is ok by me. What happens after 2011 is anybodies guess.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The options are not great, but you have to think Marist would be a prime possibility. Others might include Bryant, VMI or Monmouth.

I think LFN keeps bringing up Marist, Bryant, VMI and Monmouth as a scare tactic. :D

[Fordham]

...
Fordham: There is no way Fordham stays in the PL. It bolted for other sports because it viewed itself as "better" than the PL. It now fancies itself as having the clout to grab the PL by the n*ts and twist as it pertains football. I am shocked the the PL even would consider reinstating Fordham, shocked that the the league office has not "suggested" the member schools replace Fordham on all schedules, effective immediately. You have no idea about the subject to be so definitive in your first line. The move might happen but you speak with an authority on the topic with zero inside info.

Further, we bolted for other sports because when we said we needed scholarships in basketball the league said 'no'. A year or two later, HC says the same thing and the league says 'OK'. How would that sit with Pard fans if the shoe was on the other foot? And if the league had only allowed scholarships back in the 90's when we first requested them instead of pretty soon after we left, we'd still be full sport members.


The CAA is much better for Fordham. Fordham's complaint always has been about academics; it does not wish to comply with the PL academic index. Academically, the CAA ranges from W&M/Richmond/Villanova at the upper end to a floor that is as low as Fordham wishes to sink, so Fordham can find its academic comfort level without PL constraints. It won't maintain its Ivy and Patriot League traditional rivalries, but it looks as if very few really care about that. Another example of you stating your opinions as facts and this one is an outright lie.

We abided by the standing AI without any issues whatsoever. This was the AI that the league itself said was to ensure that the players at a given institution were representative of the students who went there. The league changed the AI to move to a league-wide one, in direct conflict with the AI's stated purpose. In the end, every other team's AI restrictions were lessened except one ... take a guess who that was.

Also, there was supposedly an agreement that when the league-wide AI was implemented, the league would allow scholarships. They implemented the league wide AI and then backed out on the agreement to implement scholarships.

Only the new league-wide AI do we have a problem with ... and only after the league backed out on our agreement did we make our scholarship demand.


I do not want Fordham in the Patriot League and I am hopeful that Fordham severs all ties to the league at once. Were Fordham still a full member subject to the guidelines and protocols of other member, I would think differently. But it is not. that's fine. carney would be the only pard fan on here I'd miss (out of the frequent posters), so your feelings are reciprocated.

This thread would be more fun if we shifted the discussion to how Lafayette screwed over the rest of the PL by being a scholarship blocker due to unfairly skirting their Title IX responsibilities.

[IaaScribe]

From what I've heard, there have been no discussions yet to what happens beyond 2011. At that point, at least, PC will be fully DI and what Stony Brook does won't have an affect on the league. SBU will do what's best for SBU at that time, and I don't think the Big South would be too terribly upset of the school chose to finder a closer geographic home. That's not to say the league doesn't like SBU, it would just be perfectly understandable if SBU chose not to stay past 2011.

PS -- Loved your facilities up there. Lots of potential at that stadium.

[DFW HOYA]

This thread would be more fun if we shifted the discussion to how Lafayette screwed over the rest of the PL by being a scholarship blocker due to unfairly skirting their Title IX responsibilities.

Of course, that's nonsense. What's next, Georgetown is hurting Fordham because GU's SAT ranges unfairly increase the league's AI numbers?

[Bogus Megapardus]

You have no idea about the subject.

I do not want Fordham in the PL.


Of course, that's nonsense.

I want Georgetown in the PL.

[dukie]

I don't see the CAA as trying to blow up the league it worked so hard to establish. I see: two A10 schools who now offer scholarships (Duquense and Fordham) that did not offer them when the CAA wrestled the league away from the A10. I see them and Dayton playing 1AA football outside off their otherwise all sports conference. I see Charlotte trying to get a program off the ground. I feel the current A10 schools are committed to 1AA level of play with their existing facilities or smaller nicer ones (see UR's new stadium). I see A10 & AE schools as content with the status quo.

The CAA schools are expanding facilities and growing their programs. I see two CAA schools that are coming into the league with better facilities than the more established existing northern schools already have. I see CAA schools and A10 schools having different ambitions for their football programs. I also see nothing wrong with that.

All of this leads to an eventual split someday. I don't know when but I am sure it would be after GA St. and ODU join the league. Both conferences could move forward separately without damage to either league. Each conference would have an affiliation of like minded schools who share the same ambition for their football programs.

The playoffs are going to 24 teams with 12 auto qualifiers. Look for the A10 to form and grab one of the auto qualifiers.

Just my opinion.

[blukeys]

I do not want Fordham in the PL.





I have alsways stated that Fordham would be great in the CAA. So let's get the deal done. While tailgating at the Fordham / UD games Joltin'Joe and I could always discuss the important issues of the day such as "Why are Yankee fans such jerks???" and "How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?"

I also want at least one school in the conference who hates Nova as much as we do.!!

[blukeys]

Look for the A10 to form and grab one of the auto qualifiers.

Just my opinion.

Again considering the miserable past history of the A-10 running football, why would anyone want to connect up with that bunch of lame losers.

[Dane96]

I don't see the CAA as trying to blow up the league it worked so hard to establish. I see: two A10 schools who now offer scholarships (Duquense and Fordham) that did not offer them when the CAA wrestled the league away from the A10. I see them and Dayton playing 1AA football outside off their otherwise all sports conference. I see Charlotte trying to get a program off the ground. I feel the current A10 schools are committed to 1AA level of play with their existing facilities or smaller nicer ones (see UR's new stadium). I see A10 & AE schools as content with the status quo.

The CAA schools are expanding facilities and growing their programs. I see two CAA schools that are coming into the league with better facilities than the more established existing northern schools already have. I see CAA schools and A10 schools having different ambitions for their football programs. I also see nothing wrong with that.

All of this leads to an eventual split someday. I don't know when but I am sure it would be after GA St. and ODU join the league. Both conferences could move forward separately without damage to either league. Each conference would have an affiliation of like minded schools who share the same ambition for their football programs.

The playoffs are going to 24 teams with 12 auto qualifiers. Look for the A10 to form and grab one of the auto qualifiers.

Just my opinion.

AE schools happy with the status quo? Really? You do realize that Stony Brook is at 63 rides and in the Big South. Albany is working on a stadium and has told the NEC to re-up we want some increase in the scholly level from 40 rides to around 50-53. UNH is ONLY lacking a really nice stadium....and Maine...well, they are still solid but they dont need any "upgrades."

All want to be part of a CAA or strongly affiliated CAA type of new Yankee conference.

[Seawolf97]

From what I've heard, there have been no discussions yet to what happens beyond 2011. At that point, at least, PC will be fully DI and what Stony Brook does won't have an affect on the league. SBU will do what's best for SBU at that time, and I don't think the Big South would be too terribly upset of the school chose to finder a closer geographic home. That's not to say the league doesn't like SBU, it would just be perfectly understandable if SBU chose not to stay past 2011.

PS -- Loved your facilities up there. Lots of potential at that stadium.

Which raise's two questions. Is Fordham going to be able to get up 63 scholarships rather quickly by the 2010 season ? And their home field may need some upgrades over the next several seasons. Both require funding especially the field that Fordham may not want to spend right now. Interesting events coming out of this loss of Northeastern Football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Which raise's two questions. Is Fordham going to be able to get up 63 scholarships rather quickly by the 2010 season ? And their home field may need some upgrades over the next several seasons. Both require funding especially the field that Fordham may not want to spend right now. Interesting events coming out of this loss of Northeastern Football.

Fordham's "official" announcement states that it is now ready with 60 scholarships. I have been to Coffey Field several times. It is perfectly adequate, especially given its urban location. Parking is tight but doable, and public transportation is a snap. It's much better than Parsons.

Fordham will be just fine "as is" in the CAA. I wish them luck.

[FUrams7]

as a Fordham football alum and avid follower of the program.. i think we should jump at the chance immediately. who knows what the PL wil ultimately decide as far a scholly's. on top of that going forward we'll be ineligible for the PL title. even if the PL eventually go schollys it may be a limited # (30-40 etc).. and we need 58 to count as a counter (W) for 1A opponents. sure FU may take a few lumps early on.. but as we ramp up.. we get a chance to play one 1A Army, UConn, Bowling Green (Clawson), Duke, BC, Navy, Rutgers each year.. Fordham also would be in the top 1aa conference in the nation. there are schools with solid academic reputation in CAA as well.. Nova, Richmond, W &M..

no disrespect to the PL (in fact i like the schools in the league) .. but waiting around for them to decide (and may not even go 58 scholly #).. may cost us big.. and in life, sometimes u only get one shot at the title..

fingers crossed CAA here we come..

[CFBfan]

You have no idea about the subject to be so definitive in your first line. The move might happen but you speak with an authority on the topic with zero inside info.

Further, we bolted for other sports because when we said we needed scholarships in basketball the league said 'no'. A year or two later, HC says the same thing and the league says 'OK'. How would that sit with Pard fans if the shoe was on the other foot? And if the league had only allowed scholarships back in the 90's when we first requested them instead of pretty soon after we left, we'd still be full sport members.

Another example of you stating your opinions as facts and this one is an outright lie.

We abided by the standing AI without any issues whatsoever. This was the AI that the league itself said was to ensure that the players at a given institution were representative of the students who went there. The league changed the AI to move to a league-wide one, in direct conflict with the AI's stated purpose. In the end, every other team's AI restrictions were lessened except one ... take a guess who that was.

Also, there was supposedly an agreement that when the league-wide AI was implemented, the league would allow scholarships. They implemented the league wide AI and then backed out on the agreement to implement scholarships.

Only the new league-wide AI do we have a problem with ... and only after the league backed out on our agreement did we make our scholarship demand.

that's fine. carney would be the only pard fan on here I'd miss (out of the frequent posters), so your feelings are reciprocated.

This thread would be more fun if we shifted the discussion to how Lafayette screwed over the rest of the PL by being a scholarship blocker due to unfairly skirting their Title IX responsibilities.

re: FU and AI "compliance" I am very familiar with the last few recruiting classes and I promise you with certainty that there are a number....more than a few who are WELL BELOW criteria needed to "qualify"!!!!!

[Go...gate]

I'm disappointed to see the both the hostility of some of the Fordham posters toward the PL and the counter-hostility of some of the PL posters toward Fordham.

Anyone who has been around the PL a while understands that Fordham's affiliation saved the PL in 1988 when Davidson dropped us like a stone.

A lot of us have strong feelings about Fordham and its quality as an institution, as well as the quality of the people who attend it. The prototype "Fordham Man" or woman also represents what the PL strives for in its student-athletes and graduates. Fordham is also quite compatible with us academically.

What has happened, however, is that the memory of those facts - institutional and individual - has faded, which is regrettable.

All this sniping, however, is bad for the PL and for Fordham and it cannot continue. Accordingly, it may be time that this marriage ended.

[JMUNJ08]

I really think Fordham may happen but thats only to fix out schedules. I am fine with another OOC game too and leave the league at 7 for 1 year. We should revisit the situation when Georgia St. comes in.

We are looking at band aids and that doesn't heal the wound just protects it from infection...

[JMUNJ08]

I have alsways stated that Fordham would be great in the CAA. So let's get the deal done. While tailgating at the Fordham / UD games Joltin'Joe and I could always discuss the important issues of the day such as "Why are Yankee fans such jerks???" and "How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?"

I also want at least one school in the conference who hates Nova as much as we do.!!

We are not all jerks! Just proud of our 1/4 billion dollar teamxthumbsupx

[JMUNJ08]

Additionally, JMU's and other schools in the conference have great academic records that no one is bringing up. UR/Nova/W&M are definitely a step above but we are still not a basket weaving college! Fordham academically would be with the top 4 but we don't have poor academics in our conference either.

[Fordham]

I'm disappointed to see the both the hostility of some of the Fordham posters toward the PL and the counter-hostility of some of the PL posters toward Fordham.

Anyone who has been around the PL a while understands that Fordham's affiliation saved the PL in 1988 when Davidson dropped us like a stone.

A lot of us have strong feelings about Fordham and its quality as an institution, as well as the quality of the people who attend it. The prototype "Fordham Man" or woman also represents what the PL strives for in its student-athletes and graduates. Fordham is also quite compatible with us academically.

What has happened, however, is that the memory of those facts - institutional and individual - has faded, which is regrettable.

All this sniping, however, is bad for the PL and for Fordham and it cannot continue. Accordingly, it may be time that this marriage ended.go ... gate, i personally love the PL - leaving for me is very sad. I loved the affiliation. My animosity here is only reserved for a few Pard fans who really torpedoed the PL friendship that we had all built up in here this past season. I forgot to mention Franks Tanks as one of the frequent Pard posters who I enjoy and have a lot of respect for, even if we don't always agree. Sorry for the omission above, FT.

And, personally, I'm still hoping it works out with the PL and scholarship football for Fordham.

[Fordham]

Of course, that's nonsense. What's next, Georgetown is hurting Fordham because GU's SAT ranges unfairly increase the league's AI numbers?
I'm dead serious that it's the unwritten story here. Lehigh & Colgate clearly appear to be ready for scholarships. I'm not certain of Bucknell but was told (and get the feeling) that they would go with the group. However, one of the core 4 members could not commit to going scholarship because they were skirting their Title IX responsibilities.

Earlier in the year when I was posting that we were going to make the move without spending a dime more and that everyone else should be able to do the same, I was told that it was not necessarily the case. I remember remarking that there was no way that need based aid could be a huge ruse to get around Title IX issues but several weeks later it was confirmed on the Pard board that this was actually the case. What else accounts for the hold up on the issue? Why else would football be treated different from other PL sports? The only explanation is that LC was an obstruction due to the $800K that the move would cost. What is the defense of how they were handling that aid?

We may yet again be the catalyst that gets the PL to go scholarship but if that doesn't happen, 'Gate & Lehigh fans can thank LC for it.

[maristdb89]

The options are not great, but you have to think Marist would be a prime possibility. Others might include Bryant, VMI or Monmouth.

While I like the PL, we've happy with the PFL. I 'm pretty sure that train has left the station.

[Go...gate]

While I like the PL, we've happy with the PFL. I 'm pretty sure that train has left the station.

You Marist guys have made this clear.

I want to say this after so many false starts - and yes, it should also apply to Georgetown - we want schools in the PL that (1) want to be there and (2) want to participate in a meaningful way. If the answer to either question is "NO", they should not join or find another conference.

I believe there are schools who don't want to affiliate with us "at sufferance" and we need to focus on those schools at this point.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm dead serious that it's the unwritten story here. Lehigh & Colgate clearly appear to be ready for scholarships. I'm not certain of Bucknell but was told (and get the feeling) that they would go with the group. However, one of the core 4 members could not commit to going scholarship because they were skirting their Title IX responsibilities.

Earlier in the year when I was posting that we were going to make the move without spending a dime more and that everyone else should be able to do the same, I was told that it was not necessarily the case. I remember remarking that there was no way that need based aid could be a huge ruse to get around Title IX issues but several weeks later it was confirmed on the Pard board that this was actually the case. What else accounts for the hold up on the issue? Why else would football be treated different from other PL sports? The only explanation is that LC was an obstruction due to the $800K that the move would cost. What is the defense of how they were handling that aid?

We may yet again be the catalyst that gets the PL to go scholarship but if that doesn't happen, 'Gate & Lehigh fans can thank LC for it.

A scholarship football league consisting only of Colgate, Lehigh and Bucknell. Splendid notion. Let's do just that. I'm sure that's what everyone has in mind, Fordham. Those three colleges are just salivating at the prospect of jettisoning the Leopards from their midst.

Best wishes in the CAA. :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

While I like the PL, we've happy with the PFL. I 'm pretty sure that train has left the station.

Why shouldn't you be happy? Look at the Red Foxes' first year success. Marist gets exposure all over the country. The PFL was a very smart move. Yes, it was sad to see the demise of MAAC football, but Marist football will be stronger in the long run.

[JD51]

You Marist guys have made this clear.

I want to say this after so many false starts - and yes, it should also apply to Georgetown - we want schools in the PL that (1) want to be there and (2) want to participate in a meaningful way. If the answer to either question is "NO", they should not join or find another conference.

I believe there are schools who don't want to affiliate with us "at sufferance" and we need to focus on those schools at this point.

As you should. Given the status quo your expansion options are almost non-existent and even with limited scholarships they wouldn't be much better (without compromising the academic philosophy of the PL).

Not an easy position to be in without making major compromises.

[Go...gate]

As you should. Given the status quo your expansion options are almost non-existent and even with limited scholarships they wouldn't be much better (without compromising the academic philosophy of the PL).

Not an easy position to be in without making major compromises.

I don't want to sound inflexible, but at some point, if you are going to have a league, everybody has to be together and pushing in the same direction in both the short and long term.

I have a lot of respect for Marist, as I do for Hofstra (which the PL stupidly turned down).

[Bull Fan]

A bit resigned at this point but still pulling for SBU. Geographic and established in conference-rival, full scholly offering, success this season....don't see what would be pulling against us...


Riddle me this... who is the "established in conference-rival" with???

Hofstra, a team SBU hasn't beaten yet? That wouldn't be considered a rivalry...

[GoBlueHens83]

Riddle me this... who is the "established in conference-rival" with???

Hofstra, a team SBU hasn't beaten yet? That wouldn't be considered a rivalry...

We have an established "rivalry" with Delaware State and they are 0-2 against us.

[Bull Fan]

We have an established "rivalry" with Delaware State and they are 0-2 against us.


Mwwaahaha.... I love it. It has to be competitive to be a rivalry. 0-13 against Hofstra, and Stony Brook fans think it's a rivalry. Look, I get the "local" aspect of it, but it's not a rivalry.

[Redwyn]

Riddle me this... who is the "established in conference-rival" with???

Hofstra, a team SBU hasn't beaten yet? That wouldn't be considered a rivalry...

We have, however, taken Hofstra down in other sports. While perhaps the football rivalry isn't developed yet, lacrosse certainly is a heated affair, and basketball will be soon. I don't see football ending up any differently.

[Bull Fan]

We're talking football, Redwyn. At least in the context of SBU moving into the CAA. And despite the lack of happiness Hofstra fans have had the last couple of years with the coaching staff and gameplanning, there is a distinct gap in talent.

There's an obvious reason that Stony Brook is the 'tune up' game for Hofstra at the start of the season.... or at least for as long they're going to continue this....err..... "rivalry".....

[JoltinJoe]

I have alsways stated that Fordham would be great in the CAA. So let's get the deal done. While tailgating at the Fordham / UD games Joltin'Joe and I could always discuss the important issues of the day such as "Why are Yankee fans such jerks???" and "How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?"

I also want at least one school in the conference who hates Nova as much as we do.!!

And Delaware still is looking to get revenge for our last meeting.:p

[Fordham]

Mwwaahaha.... I love it. It has to be competitive to be a rivalry. 0-13 against Hofstra, and Stony Brook fans think it's a rivalry. Look, I get the "local" aspect of it, but it's not a rivalry.

certainly seems like a budding rivalry, though, no? for no other reason than they have only recently so dramatically made improvements and investments in their program where facilities, scholarships and overall spending appear to only now getting on par with you guys. Now that you appear to have them on the schedule every year it seems like this one should start heating up soon imo.

I only hope that we get both of you on our schedules consistently to try to get more of an overall NY-Metro area rivalry going.

[Bull Fan]

certainly seems like a budding rivalry, though, no? for no other reason than they have only recently so dramatically made improvements and investments in their program where facilities, scholarships and overall spending appear to only now getting on par with you guys. Now that you appear to have them on the schedule every year it seems like this one should start heating up soon imo.

I only hope that we get both of you on our schedules consistently to try to get more of an overall NY-Metro area rivalry going.


I think the brass at Hofstra was discontinuing the series. That Stony Brook has upped the ante with their investment and facilities is great for them... they have a very nice stadium that can be built out even more. I'm just speaking to the rivalry comment, which is about as inaccurate as you could be. You'd have to think that eventually Stony Brook could break through and win a game, but it's not happening now or in the foreseable future. The Dutch still have a much talented roster, we just need to the coaching staff to better utilize them.

Rest assured, if that were the case it wouldn't have been only 17-10 this year. The failures of the coaches gave false hope to the SBU faithful.

Getting back on topic, I'd love to see Fordham move into the CAA at this point. They have a longer track record of playing in a conference that's been stable while competing for an auto-bid. Stony Brook needs some more seasoning. Just my opinion, no better than anyone elses.....

[Fordham]

A scholarship football league consisting only of Colgate, Lehigh and Bucknell. Splendid notion. Let's do just that. I'm sure that's what everyone has in mind, Fordham. Those three colleges are just salivating at the prospect of jettisoning the Leopards from their midst.

Best wishes in the CAA. :)

never said that - read again. I said that LC is one of the core 4 institutions in the league. All others appear ready or able to go full scholarship except for one who was skirting Title IX and that's you guys. You should be greatful that they didn't leave you in the dust to allow some time to clean up your house.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You should be grateful that they didn't leave you in the dust.

Again, best wishes and good luck in the CAA. Just from reading here, it looks like you'll be welcomed with open arms. Fordham finally will be able to discover its true potential.

[JoltinJoe]

Again, best wishes and good luck in the CAA. Just from reading here, it looks like you'll be welcomed with open arms. Fordham finally will be able to discover its true potential.

Unfortunately, this might just be the attitude of the PL, and the league will continue to dwindle in influence.

Saying yes to scholarships doesn't just preserve Fordham as a league member, it opens the door to other possibilities down the road, like Villanova and Richmond. I have little doubt that this league, with scholarships, would become one of the nation's best FCS conferences:

Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Richmond
Villanova

[crusader11]

Unfortunately, this might just be the attitude of the PL, and the league will continue to dwindle in influence.

Saying yes to scholarships doesn't just preserve Fordham as a league member, it opens the door to other possibilities down the road, like Villanova and Richmond. I have little doubt that this league, with scholarships, would become one of the nation's best FCS conferences:

Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Richmond
Villanova

Minus Georgetown and add William and Mary.

[crusader11]

Oh, and I agree, it would be one of the top 3 conferences.

[superman7515]

But why would they want to? Where's the motivation to leave what they have for that?

[JoltinJoe]

Minus Georgetown and add William and Mary.

W&M is tied in as an all-sports member of the CAA and will likely land in a re-aligned CAA when/if the CAA shake-up happens. Of course, Villanova and Richmond would have greater freedom to make a football-only arrangement.

I still hold out hope Georgetown finds its footing. Fordham/HC/G-Town could form an exciting sub-conference within the greater PL. I think we should play each year for the Loyola Cup, patterned after the Commander-in-Chief's Trophy.

Good luck to the Crusaders tomorrow.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm dead serious that it's the unwritten story here. Lehigh & Colgate clearly appear to be ready for scholarships. I'm not certain of Bucknell but was told (and get the feeling) that they would go with the group. However, one of the core 4 members could not commit to going scholarship because they were skirting their Title IX responsibilities.

Earlier in the year when I was posting that we were going to make the move without spending a dime more and that everyone else should be able to do the same, I was told that it was not necessarily the case. I remember remarking that there was no way that need based aid could be a huge ruse to get around Title IX issues but several weeks later it was confirmed on the Pard board that this was actually the case. What else accounts for the hold up on the issue? Why else would football be treated different from other PL sports? The only explanation is that LC was an obstruction due to the $800K that the move would cost. What is the defense of how they were handling that aid?

We may yet again be the catalyst that gets the PL to go scholarship but if that doesn't happen, 'Gate & Lehigh fans can thank LC for it.

I dont understand how LC are the ones blocking such a move. Yes, we have have a title IX issue somehow, but Bucknell has a similar one I understand. Lafayette will do what it takes to remain at the top of the PL. Mr. Bourger and Mr. Fisher will not allow us to slink into obscurity after building one of the best stadiums in FCS. It doesnt make sesne to build a stadium like that and cheap out on scholarships. Otherwise we could've built a cheapo stadium and used the rest to pay for scholly's for a long time.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Unfortunately, this might just be the attitude of the PL, and the league will continue to dwindle in influence.

Saying yes to scholarships doesn't just preserve Fordham as a league member, it opens the door to other possibilities down the road, like Villanova and Richmond. I have little doubt that this league, with scholarships, would become one of the nation's best FCS conferences:

Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Richmond
Villanova


Couldn't agree more. Can't wait for those yearly Richmond - Georgetown matchups, though . . . .

[Bogus Megapardus]

I dont understand how LC are the ones blocking such a move. Yes, we have have a title IX issue somehow, but Bucknell has a similar one I understand. Lafayette will do what it takes to remain at the top of the PL. Mr. Bourger and Mr. Fisher will not allow us to slink into obscurity after building one of the best stadiums in FCS. It doesnt make sesne to build a stadium like that and cheap out on scholarships. Otherwise we could've built a cheapo stadium and used the rest to pay for scholly's for a long time.

A brilliant, state-of-the-art, television-ready stadium and no one to play? Certainly does not make sense. As for Title IX - Lafayette is not out of compliance. It would become out of compliance if a lot of football scholarships were to be offered, unless an equal number of women's lacrosse, soccer, volleyball and field hockey scholarships were offered. I say we become a national women's lacrosse power. What say you?

[JoltinJoe]

But why would they want to? Where's the motivation to leave what they have for that?

None right now, but the CAA growth may prove uncomfortable in the years to come.

[Bull Fan]

Northeastern dropping the sport will be the first domino to fall. I foresee this as a break-up of the CAA as it's currently constituted, along with touching off actions by SBU, Albany, Fordham and the Patriot League.

The arrival of ODU and Georgia State should and will factor into decisions that need to be made by the northern-most members of the CAA, who don't have facilities measuring up to the southern schools and will start to balk at travel costs along with the funding needed to keep up with the Jones'..... one of the reasons stated by Northeastern in their postmortem. While it sucks to see a program drop, you have to admire the "**** or get off the pot" mentality they followed.

Trying to predict how this all shakes up is pretty damn worthless since there are so many moving parts.... It's going to be an interesting ride.

[DFW HOYA]

Minus Georgetown and add William and Mary.

Not this again? xlolx

[The Cats]

On last night's final radio show UD coach KC Keeler made the following comment that the CAA may be looking to bring another team in.......

Well, just so happens, that some ASU fans want to join the CAA....

I say.... hope you take 'em!!!!


from the MMB..... New Conference for ASU?
http://forums.delphiforums.com/appstate/messages/?msg=29867.1

[proasu89]

Well, just so happens, that some ASU fans want to join the CAA....

I say.... hope you take 'em!!!!


from the MMB..... New Conference for ASU?
http://forums.delphiforums.com/appstate/messages/?msg=29867.1

xcoffeexMaybe 2 people in an entire thread thought it wasn't a terrible idea. By the way only 51 weeks till you get another shot at the Jug.xpeacex

[The Cats]

xcoffeexMaybe 2 people in an entire thread thought it wasn't a terrible idea.

Let folks read the thread and judge for themselves.........

[proasu89]

Let folks read the thread and judge for themselves.........

I don't believe I tried to dissuade anyone from doing that. xthumbsupx FWIW, when the time comes to fish or cut bait, I believe we will be aligned with a few of the CAA schools.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Not this again? xlolx

Georgetown stays, imo.

Multi-sport field goes, but Georgetown stays.

[ngineer]

Unfortunately, this might just be the attitude of the PL, and the league will continue to dwindle in influence.

Saying yes to scholarships doesn't just preserve Fordham as a league member, it opens the door to other possibilities down the road, like Villanova and Richmond. I have little doubt that this league, with scholarships, would become one of the nation's best FCS conferences:

Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Richmond
Villanova

That's one heck of a conference if all the dominos would fall right. Gotta think of a catchy name for it...

[Franks Tanks]

go ... gate, i personally love the PL - leaving for me is very sad. I loved the affiliation. My animosity here is only reserved for a few Pard fans who really torpedoed the PL friendship that we had all built up in here this past season. I forgot to mention Franks Tanks as one of the frequent Pard posters who I enjoy and have a lot of respect for, even if we don't always agree. Sorry for the omission above, FT.

And, personally, I'm still hoping it works out with the PL and scholarship football for Fordham.

Thanks Fordham.

I think other PL supporters get a bit tired with the Rams. You guys left the conference once already, but we let you stay for football because we had no other options. In essence the PL and Fordham used each other..both sides knew the fit was poor but they needed each other all these years. It worked for a while, but it doesnt seem like it will work anymore.

I understand Fordham's position, but a lot of the rest of us are pissed because we feel we let you guys hang around so long, and now you are dropping us in a flash. Fact is that Fordhams philosophy just deosnt jive with Lafayette's or COlgate's. That is prefectly fine and few school agree with the PL practice, but perhaps it is time for both sides to move on.

[th0m]

That's one heck of a conference if all the dominos would fall right. Gotta think of a catchy name for it...

How about the "not-gonna-happen" conference.

[seattlespider]

How about the "not-gonna-happen" conference.

Sounds about right. xpeacex

[JoltinJoe]

How about the "not-gonna-happen" conference.

Let's assume for the moment that, when ODU and Georgia State come aboard as full football members, that the 13/14 team setup proves less than ideal. Specifically, what I can see happening that many excellent CAA teams wind up with 7-4 or 6-5 records due to the rigorous conference schedule, and are excluded from the playoffs.

So a split can happen along two lines: CAA full members v. CAA associate members and North v. South.

CAA full members, quite obviosuly, must be included in a re-aligned CAA: so that gives you, among the current football members: Hofstra, William & Mary, Delaware, James Madison, Towson, Georgia State and ODU. That's seven members already, probably looking to add up to three associate members.

The northern members of the CAA probably split and form re-aligned group comparable to the old Yankee Conference: UMass, UNH, Maine, URI looking to add probably up to four teams. Obviously teams like Albany and SBU are in the mix here, as is Fordham. This group will also try to make a play for Villanova.

So, in this scenario, Richmond's options are associate memebership in the CAA full member group or (if it existed) a full scholarship version of the Patriot League.

Villanova would have three options (including the full-scholarship Patriot League).

Don't you think a full scholarship PL would have a decent shot of landing both Richmond and Villanova if this scenario played out? Look at the PL with both Richmond and Villanova as football members. That's quite a collection of schools, many with great football traditions.

Of course, the PL right now has a big decision on its hand and I'm hoping it makes the right one.

[Schfourteenteen]

Would Richmond and Villanova make such a jump? There's no sense cutting ties with the #1 conference if they can afford it. The only long distance travel opponent would be Georgia State. Villanova has their rivalry with Delaware and Richmond has 3 in-state conference opponents.

The ONLY way this could ever have a chance is if the PL becomes a top 3 conference in the next 4 years.

[Bogus Megapardus]

That's one heck of a conference if all the dominoes would fall right. Gotta think of a catchy name for it...

I dunno, but the existing CAA might dub it the "Colonial Pathletic Association," or some such thing, with all the attendant ridicule and pejoratives. Naturally, it will be Lafayette's fault. No respect, no respect . . . . http://responsivebydesign.com/wp-content/uploads/pth/small/thumb-legends-rodney-dangerfield.png

[RichH2]

Carney's Patsys comes tomind, but the liklihood of that lineup is remote. Of course its LC's fault altho the new Colgate Pres may get you guys off the hook

[dukie]

The only "anyones" wanting to connect with the A10 are the all sports A10 schools that play 1AA football.

Have a football league made up of schools from different conferences causes some tough management issues. The schools have a hard time getting on the same page because they want different things from their programs. Its tough enough making that happen with schools from the same conference. Having teams from four different conferences just compounds the issue.

I think the CAA and A10 would both better served to have their own football league based on what I am seeing as the direction they want for their football programs.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

The only "anyones" wanting to connect with the A10 are the all sports A10 schools that play 1AA football.

Have a football league made up of schools from different conferences causes some tough management issues. The schools have a hard time getting on the same page because they want different things from their programs. Its tough enough making that happen with schools from the same conference. Having teams from four different conferences just compounds the issue.

I think the CAA and A10 would both better served to have their own football league based on what I am seeing as the direction they want for their football programs.

Perhaps. But it can also be simplified by limiting the number of conferences involved in a mix.

For instance, i think you'd find a smoother grouping if you had the A10 and the AE form a join conference. Location/travel would be the obvious benefit a few years down the road:


AE/A10:
Maine
UNH
Albany
Stonybrook
UMass
URI
Fordham
Richmond

- 7 conference games per team.
- 4 Conference road games per season
- If you're Richmond, you can alternate Maine & UNH road trips each year...so you never travel that far more than once per season.
- 4 OOC games per year...lots of flexibility to schedule former mates from the CAA. If you want a big payday game (ala UMass scheduling), go for it. You want to play other region schools like Colgate, Bryant, Holy Cross, etc, got for it. Richmond will likely get to pick from a group like JMU, W&M, Delaware, Villanova, etc).



CAA:
Hofstra
* Villanova
Delaware
Towson
JMU
W&M
ODU
Georgia St.

- Only one non-CAA member to worry about.
- 7 conference games
- 4 OOC games

[th0m]

Let's assume for the moment that, when ODU and Georgia State come aboard as full football members, that the 13/14 team setup proves less than ideal. Specifically, what I can see happening that many excellent CAA teams wind up with 7-4 or 6-5 records due to the rigorous conference schedule, and are excluded from the playoffs.

So a split can happen along two lines: CAA full members v. CAA associate members and North v. South.

CAA full members, quite obviosuly, must be included in a re-aligned CAA: so that gives you, among the current football members: Hofstra, William & Mary, Delaware, James Madison, Towson, Georgia State and ODU. That's seven members already, probably looking to add up to three associate members.

The northern members of the CAA probably split and form re-aligned group comparable to the old Yankee Conference: UMass, UNH, Maine, URI looking to add probably up to four teams. Obviously teams like Albany and SBU are in the mix here, as is Fordham. This group will also try to make a play for Villanova.

So, in this scenario, Richmond's options are associate memebership in the CAA full member group or (if it existed) a full scholarship version of the Patriot League.

Villanova would have three options (including the full-scholarship Patriot League).

Don't you think a full scholarship PL would have a decent shot of landing both Richmond and Villanova if this scenario played out? Look at the PL with both Richmond and Villanova as football members. That's quite a collection of schools, many with great football traditions.

Of course, the PL right now has a big decision on its hand and I'm hoping it makes the right one.

I think that the expanded amount of at-large bids will go a ways to allowing the good 7-4 CAA teams access to the playoffs. The major x-factor in all of this is whether the PL does go full-scholly and how competitive it will be when it does.

If competitiveness remains the same (which seems unlikely if you add scholarships) then there is little incentive for Villanova and Richmond to join. Sure, they'll most likely grab the playoff bids for the first couple of years but after that their profile I think will diminish from what their former CAA profile was.

To me it seems that if the PL goes full scholly at least it will be able to stop Fordham in its moving-out-tracks.

Finally, a 'small' admittance of ignorance on my part, but what is the essential difference between the current scholarship-situation and the one that the CAA has at the moment? Do you provide need-based scholarships and how much of them and how exactly do they differ from regular athletic scholarships?

[blur2005]

Richmond and Villanova leaving the CAA for the PL or a new northern league is a pipe-dream. Of the associate members in the CAA, they are by far the two most likely to stay with the conference. 'Nova has the Delaware rivalry and Richmond has JMU, W&M, and soon ODU. Most importantly, I'm certain they have no desire to leave the strongest conference in FCS football.

[JMUNJ08]

Perhaps. But it can also be simplified by limiting the number of conferences involved in a mix.

For instance, i think you'd find a smoother grouping if you had the A10 and the AE form a join conference. Location/travel would be the obvious benefit a few years down the road:


AE/A10:
Maine
UNH
Albany
Stonybrook
UMass
URI
Fordham
Richmond

- 6 conference games per team.
- 3 Conference road games per season
- If you're Richmond, you can alternate Maine & UNH road trips each year...so you never travel that far more than once per season.
- 3 OOC games per year...lots of flexibility to schedule former mates from the CAA. If you want a big payday game (ala UMass scheduling), go for it. You want to play other region schools like Colgate, Bryant, Holy Cross, etc, got for it. Richmond will likely get to pick from a group like JMU, W&M, Delaware, Villanova, etc).



CAA:
Hofstra
* Villanova
Delaware
Towson
JMU
W&M
ODU
Georgia St.

- Only one non-CAA member to worry about.
- 7 conference games
- 2 OOC games

So we only play 9 games a year? Maybe in 1952. UR won't leave its easy travel arrangements of the CAA for football.

[JMUNJ08]

Perhaps. But it can also be simplified by limiting the number of conferences involved in a mix.

For instance, i think you'd find a smoother grouping if you had the A10 and the AE form a join conference. Location/travel would be the obvious benefit a few years down the road:


AE/A10:
Maine
UNH
Albany
Stonybrook
UMass
URI
Fordham
Richmond

- 6 conference games per team.
- 3 Conference road games per season
- If you're Richmond, you can alternate Maine & UNH road trips each year...so you never travel that far more than once per season.
- 3 OOC games per year...lots of flexibility to schedule former mates from the CAA. If you want a big payday game (ala UMass scheduling), go for it. You want to play other region schools like Colgate, Bryant, Holy Cross, etc, got for it. Richmond will likely get to pick from a group like JMU, W&M, Delaware, Villanova, etc).



CAA:
Hofstra
* Villanova
Delaware
Towson
JMU
W&M
ODU
Georgia St.

- Only one non-CAA member to worry about.
- 7 conference games
- 2 OOC games

So we only play 9 games a year? Maybe in 1952. UR won't leave its easy travel arrangements of the CAA for football.

[DFW HOYA]

I would not understimate one of the chief impediments to UR or Villanova joining the PL: recruiting.

CAA teams can pick up the second-tier recruit which was missed or passed over in I-A not only because they have the scholarship, but they are competing on the same level on entrance requirements: the NCAA Clearinghouse standards. Not so at the PL, where it you a recruit does not score in the top 18-20% nationally on the SAT among all students, not just football palyers, the coaches probably aren't even recruiting that kid because they can't get him in.

I don't see how any CAA team would take it upon themselves to eliminate 60-80% of its recruiting targets just for the privilege of joining the PL.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I would not understimate one of the chief impediments to UR or Villanova joining the PL: recruiting.

CAA teams can pick up the second-tier recruit which was missed or passed over in I-A not only because they have the scholarship, but they are competing on the same level on entrance requirements: the NCAA Clearinghouse standards. Not so at the PL, where it you a recruit does not score in the top 18-20% nationally on the SAT among all students, not just football palyers, the coaches probably aren't even recruiting that kid because they can't get him in.

I don't see how any CAA team would take it upon themselves to eliminate 60-80% of its recruiting targets just for the privilege of joining the PL.

You are correct as usual, DFW. Oddly, though, the Patriot League remains competitive. Someone must want to go there. Promise me that the Hoyas will stick with it, pretty please?

[blukeys]

I would not understimate one of the chief impediments to UR or Villanova joining the PL: recruiting.

CAA teams can pick up the second-tier recruit which was missed or passed over in I-A not only because they have the scholarship, but they are competing on the same level on entrance requirements: the NCAA Clearinghouse standards. Not so at the PL, where it you a recruit does not score in the top 18-20% nationally on the SAT among all students, not just football palyers, the coaches probably aren't even recruiting that kid because they can't get him in.

I don't see how any CAA team would take it upon themselves to eliminate 60-80% of its recruiting targets just for the privilege of joining the PL.

You are incorrect. Quite a few CAA teams have admittance standards tougher than the NCAA Clearinghouse standards. UR and Nova are among those.

CAA teams do recruit more highly regarded recruits and can at times get them due to the reputation of the league.

It also doesn't hurt that the CAA has a reputation of sending well known talented players to the NFL such as Darren Sharper, Marques Coulston, and Joe Flacco.

[DFW HOYA]

You are incorrect. Quite a few CAA teams have admittance standards tougher than the NCAA Clearinghouse standards. UR and Nova are among those. CAA teams do recruit more highly regarded recruits and can at times get them due to the reputation of the league.

What I was saying is that the CAA does not enforce a recruiting floor, so that if UR or Nova wanted to reach lower in the pool, there would be nothing that would prevent it. By contrast, the Pl's floor is sufficiently high that a majority of I-AA recruits cannot gain admittance under almost any circumstances and thus are not even in the mix.

[Bogus Megapardus]

. . . a few CAA teams have admittance standards tougher than the NCAA Clearinghouse standards . . .

Unquestionably so, blukeys. That's why those three schools should join . . . oh, snap! Once again, never mind . . . . it'll never happen. xsmhx

[CollegeSportsInfo]

So we only play 9 games a year? Maybe in 1952. UR won't leave its easy travel arrangements of the CAA for football.

Multiple typos on the game figures. Should be 7 & 4.

What is worth considering regarding Richmond is choice. IF the A10 ever chose to sponsor football again, it's very likely that Richmond would have to participate in the league since their other sports are their. They could of course drop scholarship levels (or totally) and join the Patriot. But that's a big move to make JUST to not be part of your home conferences football sponsorship.

[blukeys]

What I was saying is that the CAA does not enforce a recruiting floor, so that if UR or Nova wanted to reach lower in the pool, there would be nothing that would prevent it. By contrast, the Pl's floor is sufficiently high that a majority of I-AA recruits cannot gain admittance under almost any circumstances and thus are not even in the mix.

The "recruiting floor" is enforced by the schools themselves who have no incentive to recruit a player who in no way can successfully function at the academic level the school requires. Players who cannot successfully complete programs at the respective schools set the school up for sanctions from the NCAA and cost the school a scholarship that could be awarded to a player who would graduate and contribute to 4 years of eligibility as opposed to flunking out in year one and giving the school only 1 year of a contribution.

You continue to demonstrate a lack of understanding of how schools outside of the Pl actually operate. Instead you rely on the PL Propaganda that only the PL and Ivies have academic standards and that is costing your school wins.

There are numerous examples of small private schools with academic standards higher than certain conference foes, doing well and not whining about the unfairness of it all.

These include Elon, Wofford, Furman, Richmond. They don't need the protection of a conference wide AI and don't complain that a certain recruit that went to a conference opponent didn't meet their own schools academic standards.

[blukeys]

Unquestionably so, blukeys. That's why those three schools should join . . . oh, snap! Once again, never mind . . . . it'll never happen. xsmhx

If you are going to quote me at least do it accurately instead of truncating my quote and then misquoting me in your post in a dishonest attempt to try and prove your point.

My short post which was further shortened by DFW Hoya was as follows.

"Originally Posted by blukeys
You are incorrect. Quite a few CAA teams have admittance standards tougher than the NCAA Clearinghouse standards. UR and Nova are among those. CAA teams do recruit more highly regarded recruits and can at times get them due to the reputation of the league."

Now I used UR and NOVA because those were the TWO schools (not three) that DFW Hoya referenced. They are not the only schools that have admittance standards higher than the NCAA Clearinghouse Standard. As I said above they are simply among many teams in the CAA who " have admittance standards tougher than the NCAA Clearinghouse standards."

The schools of the CAA that I know have such standards higher than the NCAA Clearinghouse Standard are:

Delaware
James Madison
Nova
Northeastern
Hofstra
William and Mary
Richmond

There may be more I just don't have enough information to go past these.

Is the PL interested in recruiting all of these schools?? Or are they going to keep up the lame mantra that certain schools should be thrilled to join the ranks of the IVY League wannabe's.

All of the above schools compete quite well with other schools with lower admittance standards without the attendant whining one gets from the PL teams.

[dukie]

Quinn:

I agree that the A10 league should and probably would include the AE teams. I do think those schools currently have the same ambition for their football programs. Those ambitions are more geared toward containing costs and the current product they have.

Because college football is not as popular in the Northeast as it is in the Mid Atlantic and South, committing the extra dollars it is going to take to remain competitive doesn't make sense for the Northern ADs. I heard that said loud and clear at the press conference held by the NU AD last Sunday.

UR would have to join the A10 and should be required to by both conferences. They made the decision to take their other sports there so no acceptions should be made for football. They can continue to play W&M, ODU and JMU out of conference as scheduling allows. I do think over time, JMU and ODU's football programs will grow well beyond UR's. That will kill the desire by UR to play them every year.

[Franks Tanks]

If you are going to quote me at least do it accurately instead of truncating my quote and then misquoting me in your post in a dishonest attempt to try and prove your point.

My short post which was further shortened by DFW Hoya was as follows.

"Originally Posted by blukeys
You are incorrect. Quite a few CAA teams have admittance standards tougher than the NCAA Clearinghouse standards. UR and Nova are among those. CAA teams do recruit more highly regarded recruits and can at times get them due to the reputation of the league."

Now I used UR and NOVA because those were the TWO schools (not three) that DFW Hoya referenced. They are not the only schools that have admittance standards higher than the NCAA Clearinghouse Standard. As I said above they are simply among many teams in the CAA who " have admittance standards tougher than the NCAA Clearinghouse standards."

The schools of the CAA that I know have such standards higher than the NCAA Clearinghouse Standard are:

Delaware
James Madison
Nova
Northeastern
Hofstra
William and Mary
Richmond

There may be more I just don't have enough information to go past these.

Is the PL interested in recruiting all of these schools?? Or are they going to keep up the lame mantra that certain schools should be thrilled to join the ranks of the IVY League wannabe's.

All of the above schools compete quite well with other schools with lower admittance standards without the attendant whining one gets from the PL teams.

Bluekuys-- DFW Hoya understands recruiting, you dont understand PL recruiting.

I would hope that schools in the CAA recruit above the NCAA floor, doing that is nothing to brag about.

I know RIchmond and William & Mary bring in good kids who graduate, but they dont have a specific AI to deal with. In the PL you can have a kid who is a good student that you know will be a good fot, but if he is a bit too low score wise you will have to pass. We also have to deal with banding issues...ie we can olny bring in so many kids in the lower bracket etc. Richmond and William & Marycan recruit as many lower bracket kids as they want, we cannot. Also please understand this lower bracket means kids with 1200 SATS.

Great you recruit kids who are above the minimum standards--great. Come talk when you have to pass on a kid with an 1170 SAT and a solid GPA.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

All i know is Fordham needs to do something about their standing in the A10 for hoops. Their team stinks, their gym is ancient and the school continues to show little support. Something needs to be done to fix the situation. So far they've lost to Maine, Hartford, Fairfield and by 24 last night to Manhattan. Their one win came against Sacred Heart.

[Redwyn]

Quinn:

I agree that the A10 league should and probably would include the AE teams. I do think those schools currently have the same ambition for their football programs. Those ambitions are more geared toward containing costs and the current product they have.

Because college football is not as popular in the Northeast as it is in the Mid Atlantic and South, committing the extra dollars it is going to take to remain competitive doesn't make sense for the Northern ADs. I heard that said loud and clear at the press conference held by the NU AD last Sunday.

UR would have to join the A10 and should be required to by both conferences. They made the decision to take their other sports there so no acceptions should be made for football. They can continue to play W&M, ODU and JMU out of conference as scheduling allows. I do think over time, JMU and ODU's football programs will grow well beyond UR's. That will kill the desire by UR to play them every year.

Not to toot SBU's horn...but what about the MASSIVE budget and facility upgrades we've put together over the last few years says anything about cost containment?

I'll re-state, the team's on its way out of the AE. Don't know when, don't know how, but when the right opportunity comes it WILL jump at it.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Great you recruit kids who are above the minimum standards--great. Come talk when you have to pass on a kid with an 1170 SAT and a solid GPA.

Add to that the league-wide prohibition on "redshirting," and I think we do pretty well, considering.

[bluehenbillk]

Why did the thread about Fordham maybe going to the CAA turn into an excuse making thread about why the PL can't compete on the FCS level?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Why did the thread about Fordham maybe going to the CAA turn into an excuse making thread about why the PL can't compete on the FCS level?

You're absolutely right. The PL should just fold up and go away. How dare they! Thanks for showing all of us the light. I now am convinced beyond peradventure that no one other than the CAA has any business playing college football.

[RichH2]

Did not realize that the rest of us did not count. CAA top dog now. Guess we should just cancel playoffs and have CAA institute a conference playoff for the Natl title. How could I be so silly to even think about competing with the CAA. My bad.

[Go...gate]

Richmond and Villanova leaving the CAA for the PL or a new northern league is a pipe-dream. Of the associate members in the CAA, they are by far the two most likely to stay with the conference. 'Nova has the Delaware rivalry and Richmond has JMU, W&M, and soon ODU. Most importantly, I'm certain they have no desire to leave the strongest conference in FCS football.

Agreed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

All i know is Fordham needs to do something about their standing in the A10 for hoops. Their team stinks, their gym is ancient and the school continues to show little support.


Not to toot SBU's horn...but what about the MASSIVE budget and facility upgrades we've put together over the last few years says anything about cost containment?

I'll re-state, the team's on its way out of the AE. Don't know when, don't know how, but when the right opportunity comes it WILL jump at it.

Don't these two facts seem to point that the CAA would more probably be looking at SBU rather than Fordham?

[bluehenbillk]

You're absolutely right. The PL should just fold up and go away. How dare they! Thanks for showing all of us the light. I now am convinced beyond peradventure that no one other than the CAA has any business playing college football.

Just stop making excuses, it makes you sound like a junior high school girl.

[UAalum72]

Not to toot SBU's horn...but what about the MASSIVE budget and facility upgrades we've put together over the last few years says anything about cost containment?
Yeah, but LaValle's no longer chairman (or in the majority) of the state senate education committee. SBU's going to have to get their spending under control.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just stop making excuses, it makes you sound like a junior high school girl.

Who's making excuses? The PL is what it is. I like it that way.

n.b. - I keep reading your posts. Oddly, they still don't sound like anything at all. Shall I up the volume?

[Redwyn]

Yeah, but LaValle's no longer chairman (or in the majority) of the state senate education committee. SBU's going to have to get their spending under control.

I don't have much to base this on, but while LaValle was huge in getting us a stadium, our athletic budget has become far more alumni backed in recent years. The school's endowment in total is now about 400 million greater than it was when the stadium opened. I can't imagine SBU using anything but private funds at this point. The school is HUGE. It would make proportional sense if nothing else to have our athletics budge in line with that.

Could be totally off base, but I don't believe the state budget committee would have allowed us to publicly fund athletics, in line with most of the other FBS and FCS state schools

[Bogus Megapardus]

Don't these two facts seem to point that the CAA would more probably be looking at SBU rather than Fordham?

LFN - I'm sure you've read this article in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/sports/17suny.html

Were I a fan of a SUNY institution, I'd be concerned. Private schools have fickle boards of trustees, but SUNY system colleges that rely on the public dole for athletic scholarships and facilities can't look to far into the future. Decision-making legislators do not necessarily have an allegiance to a particular SUNY school. I'd think that the CAA would prefer the stability of Fordham, if that is the direction that Fordham chooses to go.

[Go...gate]

[QUOTE=Bogus Megapardus;1481586]Who's making excuses? The PL is what it is. I like it that way.

There is a big part of me that concurs with you. I would be lying if I said that did not like a high graduation rate for our kids and our willingness to maintain our principles and still be able to compete. My concern is that what we have now is a slippery slope to the NESCAC, which I believe the Ivy will eventually do, but which the PL should never do.

Just my two cents.

[colorless raider]

We must go scholarships in football or down the slope we go.

[Redwyn]

LFN - I'm sure you've read this article in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/sports/17suny.html

Were I a fan of a SUNY institution, I'd be concerned. Private schools have fickle boards of trustees, but SUNY system colleges that rely on the public dole for athletic scholarships and facilities can't look to far into the future. Decision-making legislators do not necessarily have an allegiance to a particular SUNY school. I'd think that the CAA would prefer the stability of Fordham, if that is the direction that Fordham chooses to go.

This was addressed earlier. The article is worthless. It highlights issues we were very well aware of, but honestly, since SBU is the only topic of concern, we're talking about a school contribution of ~15% to the athletic budget maximum, even if we include the capital project payments that are classified differently. This is absolutely minimal, especially if you consider the proportion of the budget now supported by the school's endowment.

Bottom line is D1 for SUNY was good, and is here to stay. The bigger question is where it goes next, not whether or not it should exist.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I would be lying if I said that did not like a high graduation rate for our kids and our willingness to maintain our principles and still be able to compete. My concern is that what we have now is a slippery slope to the NESCAC, which I believe the Ivy will eventually do, but which the PL should never do.

Just my two cents.


We must go scholarships in football or down the slope we go.

It's Division 1 football. You either play up or you get out.

Having said that, I'm spoiled by getting in my car, making a short drive to Princeton Stadium or Fisher Field, parking at the curb, and taking in a great game, up-close and personal. Or just a half, if that's what I feel like. It might be that we end up playing an "insular" schedule like the NESCAC, but I have a feeling that the PL would rather look up to Wake, Duke, Stanford and Northwestern as models for academic/athletic success rather than Hamilton, Bates and Middlebury. Our dear colleagues in the IL aren't the only models, even though they seem to lead us around by the nose sometimes.

I just don't want to become an almost-but-not-quite CAA if we allow scholarships. I want to maintain a special and unique identity. Yes, it has to change to remain competitive in Division 1. I just don't want it to change too much.

[DFW HOYA]

Where this scholarship issue is heading:

Some PL schools will offer full scholarships.
Some will offer a few.
Some might not offer any.
This will still not be enough for Fordham, who will look for a new home.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Where this schoalrship issue is heading:

Some PL schools will offer full scholarships.
Some will offer a few.
Some might not offer any.
This will still not be enough for Fordham, who will look for a new home.

That pretty much sums it up. I hate to think that Lafayette will allow itself to lag behind Colgate and Lehigh. The double-secret plan, of course, is to let Lehigh lure recruits to the valley, then poach them with out superior facilities and aesthetics. xcoolx

I'm pissed at Georgetown, though. We all know that the Hoyas can and should be competitive in the PL. Everyone wants Georgetown in the league to stay - I wish it could be for all sports. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed on the new AD.

Any word on Kelly's potential demise?

Finally, I'm convinced that you're right about Fordham. The public pleas about wanting to stay in the league seem to be regrettable lip-service. It's too bad because the PL could very well be "the" place to be for high-achieving scholar athletes with no desire to obtain a degree in "exercise management" or "kinesiology."

[Franks Tanks]

Why did the thread about Fordham maybe going to the CAA turn into an excuse making thread about why the PL can't compete on the FCS level?

The PL competes at the FCS level. We arent a threat to win championships every year, but we complete just as well as the MEAC, SWAC, OVC, Big South, Ivy and NEC. I guess none of these confereces compete in FCS.xlolx

[Go...gate]

We must go scholarships in football or down the slope we go.

Yes, yes, yes. And it has to be the same number as our present equivalencies, not some arbitrary 30, 40, 42, or whatever.

[Go...gate]

It's Division 1 football. You either play up or you get out.

Having said that, I'm spoiled by getting in my car, making a short drive to Princeton Stadium or Fisher Field, parking at the curb, and taking in a great game, up-close and personal. Or just a half, if that's what I feel like. It might be that we end up playing an "insular" schedule like the NESCAC, but I have a feeling that the PL would rather look up to Wake, Duke, Stanford and Northwestern as models for academic/athletic success rather than Hamilton, Bates and Middlebury. Our dear colleagues in the IL aren't the only models, even though they seem to lead us around by the nose sometimes.

I just don't want to become an almost-but-not-quite CAA if we allow scholarships. I want to maintain a special and unique identity. Yes, it has to change to remain competitive in Division 1. I just don't want it to change too much.

Amen, brother. Nothing like parking at Cloister Inn and following the band to the game.

[Fordham]

Don't these two facts seem to point that the CAA would more probably be looking at SBU rather than Fordham?
Overall I agree that they make more sense. The only argument I've heard about a desire to put us in there is that they likely would prefer an affiliate member v. a full-sport one, given that ODU and Ga. St. are joining the fray here shortly.


Where this scholarship issue is heading:

Some PL schools will offer full scholarships.
Some will offer a few.
Some might not offer any.
This will still not be enough for Fordham, who will look for a new home.
If there's a restriction on the number we're able to give, I agree. If there's no restriction, however ... and every school is just left to their own decision on #'s ... then we stay imo.

[JoltinJoe]

Finally, I'm convinced that you're right about Fordham. The public pleas about wanting to stay in the league seem to be regrettable lip-service. It's too bad because the PL could very well be "the" place to be for high-achieving scholar athletes with no desire to obtain a degree in "exercise management" or "kinesiology."

This PL snobbery is so unappealing. We've already besmirched the academic repuations of all CAA football programs in this thread, save (I'm guessing) W&M, Richmond, and Villanova. Now we're suggesting that the programs at other FCS schools are populated by athletes majoring in "exercise managment" or "kinesiology." Please stop.

As for Fordham, it will continue to produce top scholar-athletes with or without a PL affiliation.

[DFW HOYA]

If there's a restriction on the number we're able to give, I agree. If there's no restriction, however ... and every school is just left to their own decision on #'s ... then we stay imo.

And that's the Faustian bargain the PL faces. The league has no consensus on a full scholarship number because Georgetown (and to some degree, Bucknell) is underfunded, so it can't reach for the competitive level that earns it I-A guarantee games and multiple I-AA playoff bids.

A NEC-level number (40) raises competitiveness but loses Fordham and the league may lose some of its Ivy scheduling agreements.

Allowing each school to fund entirely as they see fit becomes an arms race, and essentially tells Georgetown and Bucknell that they will never be able to compete for the title unless they spend $4-5 million a year to do so. If these became targets of NEC expansion (with its autobid), the entire PL structure could be in danger.

If the implementation of basketball scholarships in the PL are any guide, it will be a slower timeline in football than Fordham wants, and may not raise the competitive level much in the process.

[Dane96]

I don't have much to base this on, but while LaValle was huge in getting us a stadium, our athletic budget has become far more alumni backed in recent years. The school's endowment in total is now about 400 million greater than it was when the stadium opened. I can't imagine SBU using anything but private funds at this point. The school is HUGE. It would make proportional sense if nothing else to have our athletics budge in line with that.

Could be totally off base, but I don't believe the state budget committee would have allowed us to publicly fund athletics, in line with most of the other FBS and FCS state schools

Your facts are sorely mistaken.

Your endowment was largely driven by State research funds. That, is no longer as big as a pot as it used to be.

Not saying this as a rival alumn...but as a fact. SBU has been told, by your new President, that they must bring down their athletic funding immediately. And too boot...there are Title IX issues that are going to crop up soon.

And before you attack, I have in depth knoweldge on TWO fronts for this. Don't worry...Albany, Bing and Buffalo have all been told the same (difference is our reduction wont be as dramatic).

[Dane96]

LFN - I'm sure you've read this article in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/sports/17suny.html

Were I a fan of a SUNY institution, I'd be concerned. Private schools have fickle boards of trustees, but SUNY system colleges that rely on the public dole for athletic scholarships and facilities can't look to far into the future. Decision-making legislators do not necessarily have an allegiance to a particular SUNY school. I'd think that the CAA would prefer the stability of Fordham, if that is the direction that Fordham chooses to go.

There is NO concern from the article. It is riddled with factless statements, and the writer has already spoken to a few people that have written asking her for facts. She stated she had made some assumptions.

Further, the article is part of a never ending crusade to villify Binghamton athletics.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Everyone wants Georgetown in the league to stay - I wish it could be for all sports. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed on the new AD.



Is this even remotely a possibility? Or wishful thinking? Why would Georgetown even consider leaving the Big East for the PL? I don't think there is any AD in the world that would even consider that move.

If I were Georgetown's AD, instead I'd be asking why do we have a football team and are missing out on the Big East football money?

[Redwyn]

Your facts are sorely mistaken.

Your endowment was largely driven by State research funds. That, is no longer as big as a pot as it used to be.

Not saying this as a rival alumn...but as a fact. SBU has been told, by your new President, that they must bring down their athletic funding immediately. And too boot...there are Title IX issues that are going to crop up soon.

And before you attack, I have in depth knoweldge on TWO fronts for this. Don't worry...Albany, Bing and Buffalo have all been told the same (difference is our reduction wont be as dramatic).

I believe all you're saying, and my sources say the same. However, like they do, I don't believe SBU will see a lasting athletics cut (if one at all). They've been saying the same for years and the budget manages to rise regardless. The sources of the money will change, but not the actual line. The school has an expanding list of seven digit donors to deal with this, and the endowment, regardless of source, was ranked as one of the fastest growing in America.

http://www.sunysb.edu/sb/giving/foundation-financials.shtml

Now will we move to the CAA? - I'll continue to stand by my original statement: We WILL change conference soon, but it needs to be an all sport change. AE is not the outlook we want, the demographic we fit with, or the level of sport the department strives to reach. I'd question whether CAA is the answer. Honestly, I see an A-10 or Big East move first, and neither will happen for a very long time. Like many other posters, I don't see the conference at this many teams lasting for long anyway.

There is much SBU needs to improve before we even should be put in the same sentence as top tier CAA member schools. We need to continue to perk up attendance (which improved dramatically this year, passing Hofstra for #1 avg. turnout on LI!), expand the stadium when the statistics suggest benefit, and push the quality of athletics. Recruitment got a MASSIVE boost when we took the conference in front of a HUGE number of potential recruits. I expect a bumper crop in only our second year of full scholly football (not a bad year 1, huh?). Like Seawolf as been saying, I'd rather we focus on the NOW with the Big South and the benefits of easier playoff access than throw our eggs into a conference that may not last long enough for us to contend. I too worry about getting the "loser label". It took basketball years to get out from under that. It would be a disaster for football to take it now.

[bluehenbillk]

This PL snobbery is so unappealing. We've already besmirched the academic repuations of all CAA football programs in this thread, save (I'm guessing) W&M, Richmond, and Villanova. Now we're suggesting that the programs at other FCS schools are populated by athletes majoring in "exercise managment" or "kinesiology." Please stop.

As for Fordham, it will continue to produce top scholar-athletes with or without a PL affiliation.

Agreed, the Ivy League is laughing.

[jimbo65]

That's one heck of a conference if all the dominos would fall right. Gotta think of a catchy name for it...

Since the Mid Continent Conference is already taken, how about the Incontinent Conference?xsmiley_wix

[Franks Tanks]

Agreed, the Ivy League is laughing.

Where is there to agree that the "Ivy league is laughing"

What is the Ivy league laughing about? The fact that Lafayette beat the Ivy champs this year with our starting QB out the entire 2nd half. Did you know that??? No you didnt because you are a fool who just likes to take uninformed pot-shots at the Patriot league. If you are going to comment on the PL please have something to add to the doscussion or at the very least get your facts straight.

[CFBfan]

Where is there to agree that the "Ivy leagie is laughing"

What is the Ivy league laughing about? The fact that Lafayette beat the Ivy champs this year with our starting QB out the entire 2nd half. Did you know that??? No you dodnt because you are a fool who just likes to take uninformed pot-shots at the Patriot league. If you are going to comment on the PL please have something to add to the doscussion or at the very least get your facts straight.

Franks Tanks, why bother with a slur from U Del? if the Ivies are laughing, they are doing so at the U Del academics, not PL football!

[Franks Tanks]

Franks Tanks, why bother with a slur from U Del? if the Ivies are laughing, they are doing so at the U Del academics, not PL football!

Yes, Hen fans bluehenbillk and bluekeys have been making dispariging remarks about the PL despite have no understanding of what they speak.

If you want us to explain things to you we would be happy, if not STFU we dont care what uninformed posters think about the PL

[Bogus Megapardus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but why does a student-athlete choose Lafayette, or Fordham, or Penn, for that matter? Not because he couldn't get into Delaware. Does this come across as snobbery or elitism? To some, perhaps. To others, it's symbol a reward for hard work well accomplished. Take your pick. And no - "principles of reflexology" is not in the course catalog at Colgate or Lehigh or Bucknell, nor will it be, scholarships or not. If that seems offensive or haughty to some, so be it. Walk into the library at any of these institutions and you'll see athletes pouring over differential equations and reading Ovid in the original Latin at 1:00 AM. Ask them it they find it so.

If the PL decides to award scholarships, it will do so without diminishing its academic standards, league-wide. Folks here love to scoff at the PL - "automatic bye" and "patsie" remarks abound - and for those folks, PL schools most certainly would be an ill-advised choice. But of the hundreds of colleges and universities in the United States, only a tiny handful can maintain extraordinary league-wide academic standards and astronomical graduation rates while competing admirably (if not at a championship level) in Division 1 athletics. But again, that's not for everyone.

Now, as to Fordham (the point of this thread): Many in the PL feel as if the rest of the league was strong-armed by Fordham's unilateral scholarship decision. There is some animosity, which even Fordham fans find understandable. In the end, Fordham had to make a decision that was best for the institution. Fordham earned the AQ twice in all its years in PL football. Will it have better success in the CAA? The odds seem against it, but who knows? There does not seem to be a lot of support for remaining in the PL, and none whatsoever for rejoining the PL in all sports. I certainly wish Fordham the best of luck going forward.

[RamRay]

WOW! Such sniping over a possible action by a school that has made the statement it wants to stay in the PL! True, some FU supporters want to leave the PL and true some want to stay in the PL (regardless of the negative comments made by some PL posters that have helped to create the pool of FU fans wanting to leave). Some of the comments here I find simply strange. For one, we know how bad FU basketball is and it is only a matter of (short) time before the coach is canned. A new BBall arena is in the works, but first up are some academic buildings and the bllion dollar Lincoln Center campus project (yes PL fans, believe it or not, academics do come first at Fordham).

As to the notion that FU has the audacity to push for Fball scholarships, why is that such a horror in the PL given that Fball is the only sport in the PL w/o sholarships? We got slammed for wanting bball scholies and were told no, but when HC demanded them, the answer was yes, after Fordham left. I see the same thing happening again now with football. As much as I liked the PL and supported FU participation, for too many years many PL fans often denegraded FU and marginalized us; When we struggled the first 10 years, we didn't belong in the loftly company, when we won 2 championships, many infered our knuckle-dragging, lower AI players was the reason. And PL fans wonder why Fordham does what it does when we ultimatley must look out for our own interests: can't say we were always welcome. Of course there are some great PL folks (like Go...gate) who are fair and balanced, but I see more negative posters.xnonox

All this banter and insults may be for naught: the CAA may bypass Fordham and or the PL will start to allow scholies in which case Fordham is happy to stay...but I wonder given what I have read from some PL fans if indeed we are wanted? Are the nasty comments posted by Bogus the feelings of a tiny few, or are they endemic to a larger base?

[bluehenbillk]

My shots at the PL in this thread are over the "sermon from the mount" arrogance that comes from your proclaimed academic prowess and its translation into recruiting from a limited pool of HS athletes.

I know the Ivy is no power when it comes to football, so JJ's reply doesn't surprise me. And yes, I've followed the PL and it's teams much less recently, simply because I have no interest in it. If you guys were beating good OOC teams & sending more than one team into the postseason, I'd play more attention. I watched UD play Lehigh for years & they were good games. It looks as though those days have passed.

I'd like to hear from FU fans as to how they'd feel about joining the CAA & keep it to football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Are the nasty comments posted by Bogus the feelings of a tiny few, or are they endemic to a larger base?

RamRay - I don't get it at all. First, I like Fordham and I'd like the Rams to stay in the PL. But the PL rules forbid merit-based athletic scholarships and redshirting in football, so it cannot stay because Fordham has chosen to allow scholarships. Therefore, the Patriot League must either (1) make an exception for one football member, Fordham, or (2) rewrite its charter to allow all member schools to allow scholarships. (Remember, the PL includes Army and Navy as full members and those institutions will have a say in the matter as well.) Either way, a major change must take place that affects all the member institutions, especially so because the Patriot League is under the authority of the Presidents of its member institutions.

Academically, Fordham fits well in the Patriot League. In fact, Fordham joined the PL because if its emphasis on academics. It now wants to allow football scholarships, but its decision necessarily affects all the other members and shakes the foundation of the league as a whole. It's not simple matter where a league administrator can say, "fine, go ahead and offer scholarships."

[Ken_Z]

WOW! Such sniping over a possible action by a school that has made the statement it wants to stay in the PL! True, some FU supporters want to leave the PL and true some want to stay in the PL (regardless of the negative comments made by some PL posters that have helped to create the pool of FU fans wanting to leave). Some of the comments here I find simply strange. For one, we know how bad FU basketball is and it is only a matter of (short) time before the coach is canned. A new BBall arena is in the works, but first up are some academic buildings and the bllion dollar Lincoln Center campus project (yes PL fans, believe it or not, academics do come first at Fordham).

As to the notion that FU has the audacity to push for Fball scholarships, why is that such a horror in the PL given that Fball is the only sport in the PL w/o sholarships? We got slammed for wanting bball scholies and were told no, but when HC demanded them, the answer was yes, after Fordham left. I see the same thing happening again now with football. As much as I liked the PL and supported FU participation, for too many years many PL fans often denegraded FU and marginalized us; When we struggled the first 10 years, we didn't belong in the loftly company, when we won 2 championships, many infered our knuckle-dragging, lower AI players was the reason. And PL fans wonder why Fordham does what it does when we ultimatley must look out for our own interests: can't say we were always welcome. Of course there are some great PL folks (like Go...gate) who are fair and balanced, but I see more negative posters.xnonox

All this banter and insults may be for naught: the CAA may bypass Fordham and or the PL will start to allow scholies in which case Fordham is happy to stay...but I wonder given what I have read from some PL fans if indeed we are wanted? Are the nasty comments posted by Bogus the feelings of a tiny few, or are they endemic to a larger base?


RamRay,

i have tried to stay out of this thread and will continue to try to refrain after this response until we have some additional information. having said that, i will respond to a few of your points/ questions starting with the last one.

- i believe the comments of Bogus are the feelings of a minority of PL fans. i find them and the elitism of other posts on occasion to be disturbing. i think a carefiul accouting would reveal a majority of posters here support Fordham in the PL and hope that it works out and you remain. in summary, to attribute the views of Bogus as the general perspective of PL fans is bogus.

- on the other hand, i think your dismissal of the ill will created by some Fordham fans is in error. fortunately most of the Fordham posters on this board are level headed objective posters a majority of the time (and as for the times they may not be, whose perspective and objectivity among us sports fanatics is not occasionally biased by our fandom and support?) however, if you step outside of this board, see the Fordham fan boards as a prime example, there are quite a few who villify the PL. they blame the PL for lasting damage to the entire athleitc program some 15 years after leaving and repeatedly denigrate the PL as a whole. from my vantage point, they contribute to the negative response from fans of the other schools. i will admit to having wished ill will on Fordham athletics when I read the following quote from the esteemed jackass of all jackasses rambacker, following a recent loss by your womens's basketball team to Bucknell:

"How can any of our teams lose to Bucknell? Not a good sign."

this is an ignorant statement which based on his posting history is based on Bucknell being in the PL. Bucknell has an excellent overall athletics program where i expect a majority of our teams would defeat Fordham in head to head competition.

- as for Fordham pushing for football scholarships, my personal take, and what i perceive as the take of many non-Fordham fans on this board is that they are well within their rights and in fact many of us respect the fact that they gave the PL leadership the "***** or get off the pot" ultimatum. the PL presidents are grossly guilty of a failure of leadership with respect to addressing this issue. it has been festering for years and they continue to operate believing the rest of the world should be willing to wait and operate on their overly deliberate timetable. they need to come to a conclusion on this issue and move forward one way or another.

- as for the Fordham gets no respect from the PL, i.e. see basketball scholarship issue as a prime example, i think these are distincty different situations under which the decision is to be made. when Fordham demanded basketball scholarships and the PL refused, the league leaders still believed the pure need based model could succeed and stuck to their principles and let Fordham get away. in retrospect they were wrong (and i wish/hope they have learned from that error). when HC demanded a couple years later, the decision was different. it was clear at that time that the choice had become, acquiese to HCs demand or see the league collapse (Army was out the door as well if HC left). at that time the decision was to preserve the league at the expense of preserving the need based model. this time around the need based model is not a true defense for rejecting football scholarships. to the extent it has been referenced by the commissioner, that is horse crap. however, linking the current debate to the decision wrt basketball and conluding that the league is out to get or disrespect Fordham is not valid in my view.

[Bogus Megapardus]

first up are some academic buildings and the bllion dollar Lincoln Center campus project (yes PL fans, believe it or not, academics do come first at Fordham).

I was at Fordham's Lincoln Center campus just last week for a seminar, RamRay. I got to see the McNally Auditorium, which is wonderful.

[Franks Tanks]

My shots at the PL in this thread are over the "sermon from the mount" arrogance that comes from your proclaimed academic prowess and its translation into recruiting from a limited pool of HS athletes.

I know the Ivy is no power when it comes to football, so JJ's reply doesn't surprise me. And yes, I've followed the PL and it's teams much less recently, simply because I have no interest in it. If you guys were beating good OOC teams & sending more than one team into the postseason, I'd play more attention. I watched UD play Lehigh for years & they were good games. It looks as though those days have passed.

I'd like to hear from FU fans as to how they'd feel about joining the CAA & keep it to football.

If you dont care then got off this thread and peddle your opinions elsewhere.

You state
"My shots at the PL in this thread are over the "sermon from the mount" arrogance that comes from your proclaimed academic prowess and its translation into recruiting from a limited pool of HS athletes. "

Well for better or worse it is true. Most PL schools cannot even look at a recruit with an 1100 SAT and we have to turn down kids who are very capable students. PL fans lament this at times, but it is the bed we made. Fact is that the average SAT's at member schools are over 1300 and our schools are small so we must have athletes that are representative of their class. This is the truth. If you dont like I dont care go away

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Reminder to LFN and others, there are no affiliate members in "CAA Football". It has been established in prior threads that the football league is a separate entity administered by the CAA.

And AFAIK the admission standards for UNH Athletics are higher than the NCAA Clearing House. Amazingly during the recent Senior Day festivities I heard "Engineering", "Business Administration" and other majors far more often than Kinesiology. And in that linked information about graduation rates, I saw UNH Football at 95%. Not claiming CAA schools are Ivy or Patriot type schools, but most of us are a far cry from the FBS football factories.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And AFAIK the admission standards for UNH Athletics are higher than the NCAA Clearing House. Amazingly during the recent Senior Day festivities I heard "Engineering", "Business Administration" and other majors far more often than Kinesiology. And in that linked information about graduation rates, I saw UNH Football at 95%. Not claiming CAA schools are Ivy or Patriot type schools, but most of us are a far cry from the FBS football factories.

I agree UNH_Alum. The idea that UNH, Delaware, Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova are scraping the bottom of the barrel for recruits is ludicrous - almost all of these schools, if not all, top the APR list every year alongside the Bucknell's and Lafayette's.


Reminder to LFN and others, there are no affiliate members in "CAA Football". It has been established in prior threads that the football league is a separate entity administered by the CAA.

If you believe that a league called "CAA Football", administered by the CAA, is completely independent with all members as "affiliates" and makes decisions that benefit all members the same as members of the A-10, AE and CAA members in other sports, I've got a bridge in Georgia to sell you. xcoolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

in summary, to attribute the views of Bogus as the general perspective of PL fans is bogus.

I agree with Ken_Z; my remarks should not be deemed to be representative of my college or the Patriot League as a whole. They are my views and mine alone. I will continue to stand behind my observation that league-wide, homogeneous academic standards are what differentiates the PL from many other conferences. It is a distinction that remains worthy of note, in my opinion.

I wish Fordham would remain in the PL, but it made the decision to leave, not the PL.

And Bucknell has consistently been the most athletically-successful member of the Patriot League since its inception. There isn't even a close second.

[Go...gate]

My shots at the PL in this thread are over the "sermon from the mount" arrogance that comes from your proclaimed academic prowess and its translation into recruiting from a limited pool of HS athletes.

I know the Ivy is no power when it comes to football, so JJ's reply doesn't surprise me. And yes, I've followed the PL and it's teams much less recently, simply because I have no interest in it. If you guys were beating good OOC teams & sending more than one team into the postseason, I'd play more attention. I watched UD play Lehigh for years & they were good games. It looks as though those days have passed.

I'd like to hear from FU fans as to how they'd feel about joining the CAA & keep it to football.

You should not paint all of us with this brush.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And Bucknell has consistently been the most athletically-successful member of the Patriot League since its inception. There isn't even a close second.

That's because in Olympic/basically non-scholarship sports, Bucknell is competitive on a national level and has tons of pride in those teams. But in the sports where scholarships tilt the playing field, Bucknell hasn't had the same success. The Bison only had success in basketball when Flannery got scholarships to play with (and they've been unable to duplicate that amazingness since), and Bucknell has never been to the FCS playoffs, with their last PL title coming in 1996.


I wish Fordham would remain in the PL, but it made the decision to leave, not the PL.

Fordham most decidedly did NOT make the decision to leave the PL. It actually went to great pains to adhere to the league-wide AI and to keep the door wide open to the league to catch up to its ambitions - which, by the way, only serve to do what many folks on here want the PL to do anyway, which is allow merit-based aid in football, just like the aid that already exists in men's basketball.

[Franks Tanks]

Reminder to LFN and others, there are no affiliate members in "CAA Football". It has been established in prior threads that the football league is a separate entity administered by the CAA.

And AFAIK the admission standards for UNH Athletics are higher than the NCAA Clearing House. Amazingly during the recent Senior Day festivities I heard "Engineering", "Business Administration" and other majors far more often than Kinesiology. And in that linked information about graduation rates, I saw UNH Football at 95%. Not claiming CAA schools are Ivy or Patriot type schools, but most of us are a far cry from the FBS football factories.

That is very admirable and you guys are clearly doing it the right way.


PL frustration lies in the fact that we know some of these kids are good students and would do well in school, but our AI and inflexible requirements mean that we must pass on them. Would a hard working athlete who is serious about school with an 1100 SAT and a 3.2 GPA do well at a PL school? Most likely, but we typically dont get a chance to find out and we miss out on a lot of these kids.

When a PL poster says that kid wouldnt get into my school or whatever, we are not degarding that kid or the program. We are simply lamenting that a certain player would have been a good fit at one of our schools, but we let him go because his SAT was 50 points to low and our inflexible standards chased him away.

[Bogus Megapardus]

My shots at the PL in this thread are over the "sermon from the mount" arrogance that comes from your proclaimed academic prowess and its translation into recruiting from a limited pool of HS athletes.



You should not paint all of us with this brush.

Again, my views and comments are mine alone. Please do not ascribe them to others or to the PL. I stand by them, but (unlike the size of the PL recruiting pool) there is boundless space and accommodation for the otherwise-minded.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

PL frustration lies in the fact that we know some of these kids are good students and would do well in school, but our AI and inflexible requirements mean that we must pass on them. Would a hard working athlete who is serious about school with an 1100 SAT and a 3.2 GPA do well at a PL school? Most likely, but we typically dont get a chance to find out and we miss out on a lot of these kids.

I think the bigger problem is the 1400 SAT kid that comes from a household that makes $100K a year. If he's good and an Ivy wants him, they get him, partially because of reputation but also because he's guaranteed a free education if he makes less than $100K a year. If he can throw the football 60 yards across his body, we offer a partial and Richmond dangles a full scholly, so they get him. We get squeezed from both sides; there's not much we can do if an IL school wants somebody, but we shouldn't get squeezed by Richmond by the extent that we are.

[Franks Tanks]

I think the bigger problem is the 1400 SAT kid that comes from a household that makes $100K a year. If he's good and an Ivy wants him, they get him. If he can throw the football 60 yards across his body, we offer a partial and Richmond dangles a full scholly, so they get him. We get squeezed from both sides; there's not much we can do if an IL school wants somebody, but we shouldn't get squeezed by Richmond by the extent that we are.

I agree there 100%.

I was still referencing the Delaware posters prior false claims

[henfan]

If you believe that a league called "CAA Football", administered by the CAA, is completely independent with all members as "affiliates" and makes decisions that benefit all members the same as members of the A-10, AE and CAA members in other sports, I've got a bridge in Georgia to sell you. xcoolx

I don't think that's what UNH Alum was suggesting at all. He didn't write that all members are affiliates but, to the contrary, that no members are affiliates. Each is a full member of the FB league, which is a completely separate legal entity from the CAA Olympic sport conference.

CAA FB league office administrators (Yeager, Boone, etc.) aren't vested with the power to make unilateral decisions on behalf of the membership. The conference office exists to carry out the will of the CAA Council of Presidents. 3/4 of the league presidents must vote in favor of a measure before it can be passed. Each school has an equal single vote.

On the basis of plain numbers, of course CAA schools will continue to have more representation in future voting matters (7 CAA, 3 A-10, 2 AEC & 1 BEC members); however, the CAA block still will not constitute a 3/4 voting majority. Even if the entire CAA voting block conspired together to support a measure that benefited only them, they couldn't possibly pass it without at least 3 more votes from among A-10, AEC & BEC members. A simple majority does not constitute control over FB conference matters. UMaine, UNH, UMass, URI, UR & VU are all afforded the same voting rights as HU, UD, TU, ODU, W&M, JMU and, eventually, GSU.

[RamRay]

I am glad that the negative posts are by a few and we are all entitled to our opinions. I have read far too many negative posts on Fordham steming from the many years when PF football blogs were on the VOY forums.

I have nothing against the CAA, but I think it is fair that every person here wants to see their school's program go as far as it can; so some FU fans would love to join the CAA as it is the premier FCS league, while others feel a strong connection to the PL and hope to stay in it, but at a stronger level; less Ivy light and more FCS competative with scholies. As much as I felt badly that FU had such a poor year, I was soundly rooting for Holy Cross when they played Villanova in the first round as I rooted for other PL teams in the past who go to the FCS playoffs. I also think that if history does repeat itself and the PL kisses us goodby... no scholies, no affiliate membership, there will be many sad folks, but if by some chance we are invited to join the CAA, we would at least land on our feet. The life of a nomad without a conference is a dead end for any FCS program and the CAA is a great fball conference. I think the commitment to raising the bar for FU football is a clear indicator that the unfortunate decisions made by most MAAC schools, Boston U. and recently by Northeastern will not be made at FU. There is just too stong a tradition to give it up. Why not have high standards and be really competative in OOC games? I hope other PL schools don't see this scholie issue as FU's arrogant demand, but as a real urging, a push to convert grants into scholarships and become more competative.

[Franks Tanks]

I am glad that the negative posts are by a few and we are all entitled to our opinions. I have read far too many negative posts on Fordham steming from the many years when PF football blogs were on the VOY forums.

I have nothing against the CAA, but I think it is fair that every person here wants to see their school's program go as far as it can; so some FU fans would love to join the CAA as it is the premier FCS league, while others feel a strong connection to the PL and hope to stay in it, but at a stronger level; less Ivy light and more FCS competative with scholies. As much as I felt badly that FU had such a poor year, I was soundly rooting for Holy Cross when they played Villanova in the first round as I rooted for other PL teams in the past who go to the FCS playoffs. I also think that if history does repeat itself and the PL kisses us goodby... no scholies, no affiliate membership, there will be many sad folks, but if by some chance we are invited to join the CAA, we would at least land on our feet. The life of a nomad without a conference is a dead end for any FCS program and the CAA is a great fball conference. I think the commitment to raising the bar for FU football is a clear indicator that the unfortunate decisions made by most MAAC schools, Boston U. and recently by Northeastern will not be made at FU. There is just too stong a tradition to give it up. Why not have high standards and be really competative in OOC games? I hope other PL schools don't see this scholie issue as FU's arrogant demand, but as a real urging, a push to convert grants into scholarships and become more competative.

I think every PL poster on this board would agree with this statement. Some PL posters are upset with Fordham because they screwed the league once, leaving after just a few years, and now have the league by the balls again as a FB affiliate member. We mostly all agree that we need scholly's, but I think some have been turned off by the way Fordham has dealt with the proceedings.

[bluehenbillk]

You should not paint all of us with this brush.

Point well taken.

[DFW HOYA]

Why not have high standards and be really competative in OOC games? I hope other PL schools don't see this scholie issue as FU's arrogant demand, but as a real urging, a push to convert grants into scholarships and become more competative.

Converting grants doesn't equal more competitiveness, however.

[CFBfan]

I agree with Ken_Z; my remarks should not be deemed to be representative of my college or the Patriot League as a whole. They are my views and mine alone. I will continue to stand behind my observation that league-wide, homogeneous academic standards are what differentiates the PL from many other conferences. It is a distinction that remains worthy of note, in my opinion.

I wish Fordham would remain in the PL, but it made the decision to leave, not the PL.

And Bucknell has consistently been the most athletically-successful member of the Patriot League since its inception. There isn't even a close second.

just an observation:
My son was part of a "recent recruting class" (within the last 3 seasons...vague to protect him).
I was with him on recruit weekends at FU, LC, HC and GU in the PL. After meeting both potential student athletes attending the same weekend AND current student athletes, we both agreed that FU would be taken off the list based on converstions and perceived "academic potential" compared to those at the other schools. Just our prefernce.

[jimbo65]

just an observation:
My son was part of a "recent recruting class" (within the last 3 seasons...vague to protect him).
I was with him on recruit weekends at FU, LC, HC and GU in the PL. After meeting both potential student athletes attending the same weekend AND current student athletes, we both agreed that FU would be taken off the list based on converstions and perceived "academic potential" compared to those at the other schools. Just our prefernce.

Just wondering, if FU were able to offer a full free ride, as they will soon be able to, would the Rams have remained on the list for another review.

[Bogus Megapardus]

we both agreed that FU would be taken off the list based on converstions and perceived "academic potential" compared to those at the other schools. Just our prefernce.


Just wondering, if FU were able to offer a full free ride, as they will soon be able to, would the Rams have remained on the list for another review.

. . . and, was playing in the Patriot League viewed as a positive, a negative, or did the league affiliation have no impact on the family's decision?

[CFBfan]

Just wondering, if FU were able to offer a full free ride, as they will soon be able to, would the Rams have remained on the list for another review.

jimbo, great question and i appreciate you understanding my intent, which was NOT to knock FU. The reality is, although my son is a "nice" 1AA player, he will not be suiting up on Sundays so Education was the top priority. I do not qualify for financial aid and the tuition as you know is "a lot of money" so a scholly would have been very nice but we would have made the same decision.

[Ken_Z]

Some PL posters are upset with Fordham because they screwed the league once, leaving after just a few years, and now have the league by the balls again as a FB affiliate member. We mostly all agree that we need scholly's, but I think some have been turned off by the way Fordham has dealt with the proceedings.

this is where i side more with the "Fordham perspective." we were hurt by Fordham leaving years ago, but that was their prerogative. at the time they made their position clear and the PL passed. as i noted before, a different situation, but they did not do anything ethically wrong. what hurt was that they had a philisophical change of direction so quickly which is indicative of the lack of a clear mission statement to execute upon that has haunted them for many years.

this time they have again given the PL an ultimatum, but have offered the PL terms that they could live with and an opportunity to meet those terms. the PL is failing to react in a timely fashion and i think many would agree with me that this is the PLs failure to adapt to the realities of reconciling what the league hopes to accomplish with what is required to succeed in D1 college athletics today.

sure, timing was bad with the economic meltdown and the deterioration of school endowments etc. but this issue has been percolating for years. the league still attempts to operate under an antiquated understanding of the market dynamics. contrast this to the CAA, they were hit by an unfortunate circumstance (Northeastern disbandonment), but are able to respond quickly because they understand what their objectives are and what it takes to make things happen in the business of college athletics as it exists today.

[DFW HOYA]

A lot of this speaks to the dysfunctional league as a whole.

In truth there are only five PL teams that the league focuses on. Army and Navy have another agenda in football, Fordham is now considered too aggressive, Georgetown not aggressive enough, and American...well, they don't fit any of the categories.

If the five schools can't agree in unison on a path for scholarship support, it won't succeed, no matter how much (Fordham) or how little (Georgetown) is invested by associate members.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

sure, timing was bad with the economic meltdown and the deterioration of school endowments etc. but this issue has been percolating for years. the league still attempts to operate under an antiquated understanding of the market dynamics. contrast this to the CAA, they were hit by an unfortunate circumstance (Northeastern disbandonment), but are able to respond quickly because they understand what their objectives are and what it takes to make things happen in the business of college athletics as it exists today.

Interesting. You could make this same charge about the IL. Of course, the IL can afford being ignorant of collegiate athletics as a whole since their membership has been stable at eight since their inception.

[Ken_Z]

Interesting. You could make this same charge about the IL. Of course, the IL can afford being ignorant of collegiate athletics as a whole since their membership has been stable at eight since their inception.

yes, that is a significant difference. if the Ivy deliberates and drags on, they are deferring an issue affecting their member institutions. when the Patriot delberates and drags on, we are missing opportunities. while i hope for the scholarship solution and retaining Fordham, if the decision is for non-scholly, they need to get to it. this would at least define the viable paths regarding league membership and they could pursue them vigorously. instead we twiddle our thumbs, debate, agonize over whos feelings will be hurt and risk the leagues long term viability.

[Franks Tanks]

this is where i side more with the "Fordham perspective." we were hurt by Fordham leaving years ago, but that was their prerogative. at the time they made their position clear and the PL passed. as i noted before, a different situation, but they did not do anything ethically wrong. what hurt was that they had a philisophical change of direction so quickly which is indicative of the lack of a clear mission statement to execute upon that has haunted them for many years.

this time they have again given the PL an ultimatum, but have offered the PL terms that they could live with and an opportunity to meet those terms. the PL is failing to react in a timely fashion and i think many would agree with me that this is the PLs failure to adapt to the realities of reconciling what the league hopes to accomplish with what is required to succeed in D1 college athletics today.

sure, timing was bad with the economic meltdown and the deterioration of school endowments etc. but this issue has been percolating for years. the league still attempts to operate under an antiquated understanding of the market dynamics. contrast this to the CAA, they were hit by an unfortunate circumstance (Northeastern disbandonment), but are able to respond quickly because they understand what their objectives are and what it takes to make things happen in the business of college athletics as it exists today.


I agree completely. Fordham has the right to do what they please, but their abrupt changes of direction are difficult to take for the slow moving PL

[Go...gate]

I, for one, continue to believe that we are much better off with Fordham staying and the PL going to scholarships. Yes, I am biased. But I think if we get past this, our league will be much stronger - even if Georgetown elects to go its own way.

[Seawolf97]

I think every PL poster on this board would agree with this statement. Some PL posters are upset with Fordham because they screwed the league once, leaving after just a few years, and now have the league by the balls again as a FB affiliate member. We mostly all agree that we need scholly's, but I think some have been turned off by the way Fordham has dealt with the proceedings.

This is the exact reason why I think SBU would not be in the discussion now about leaving the Big South. We have both a contractual obligation and an ethical one as sharing part of the title. My guess is we may even go for another two seasons in the Big South after 2011 then see how the football landscape looks. I also think we will be in the AE for awhile-once again no real viable options about moving up.

[colorless raider]

I, for one, continue to believe that we are much better off with Fordham staying and the PL going to scholarships. Yes, I am biased. But I think if we get past this, our league will be much stronger - even if Georgetown elects to go its own way.

Totally agree. The presdents are a bunch of weak kneed, foot dragging egg heads.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Totally agree. The presdents are a bunch of weak kneed, foot dragging egg heads.

xlolx Welcome to Hamilton, Dr. Herbst! xlolx

[Redwyn]

This is the exact reason why I think SBU would not be in the discussion now about leaving the Big South. We have both a contractual obligation and an ethical one as sharing part of the title. My guess is we may even go for another two seasons in the Big South after 2011 then see how the football landscape looks. I also think we will be in the AE for awhile-once again no real viable options about moving up.

Agreed :)

[JoltinJoe]

I know the Ivy is no power when it comes to football, so JJ's reply doesn't surprise me.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[colorless raider]

xlolx Welcome to Hamilton, Dr. Herbst! xlolx

I was not referring to our former president, Rebecca Chopp, but rather to the laggards and you know who they are.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I was not referring to our former president, Rebecca Chopp, but rather to the laggards and you know who they are.

I was just making a funny, colorless. Yes, I know who most people think they are. One must try to promote positive super-nerd group-think.

[ngineer]

I was just making a funny, colorless. Yes, I know who most people think they are. One must try to promote positive super-nerd group-think.

Where did ol' Artie Rothkopf end up, anyway???

[Go...gate]

Where did ol' Artie Rothkopf end up, anyway???

BOT at American, another PL member. Art is the gift that keeps on giving - like Athlete's Foot.

[Henny]

No new teams fits the bill to join the CAA out of the NY area, NONE.

[Bogus Megapardus]

BOT at American, another PL member. Art is the gift that keeps on giving - like Athlete's Foot.

. . . aka jock itch. I notice that American doesn't play football. xcoffeex


No new teams fits the bill to join the CAA out of the NY area, NONE.

Perhaps not. Would you consider an old team from the NY area?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Added some thoughts here about Fordham, Northeastern, and the CAA here:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/11/sundays-word-worry.html

Will probably add more about it this week, too. I think my blog posting is a decent cliffs notes as to where we are right now.

[Doc QB]

Just returned home from Thanksgiving weekend in Bethlehem, where my folks reside, and Lafayette's SID lives a few houses down (who, consequently, must now do all the snow removal for the old folks on the block for second straight year, losing a certain rivalry game bet to my dad who is an LU alum).

Here is another perspective about the scholarships, and is is relevant to the argurment a few posts back regarding academics standards, recruitbability of student athletes, "perceived" marginal students at other conference's schools...Lafayette is scared to death of scholarships. Reason why? They are having an enormously difficult time keeping the lower band kids eligible at LC. And the fear worsens, because as he said to my old man, "These are the kinds Frank wants." They are worried he'll go after too many of them with full ticket rides. I am not sure why, because I am sure admissions offices and PL front offices would still impose certain legislation to ensure competitive student-athletes are recruited and brought in. But from someone on the front lines there, he was very frank about the concern in Easton from AD and faculty alike.

Not sure how this could affect presidential discussions the month, but I find it interesting from a person in the know over there that LC is struggling with some of its football players. I am sure it is not unique to the Leopards, I in no way intend to have my post poke fun at them. But it is a relevant viewpoint nonetheless.

Discuss.

[MplsBison]

Just returned home from Thanksgiving weekend in Bethlehem, where my folks reside, and Lafayette's SID lives a few houses down (who, consequently, must now do all the snow removal for the old folks on the block for second straight year, losing a certain rivalry game bet to my dad who is an LU alum).

Here is another perspective about the scholarships, and is is relevant to the argurment a few posts back regarding academics standards, recruitbability of student athletes, "perceived" marginal students at other conference's schools...Lafayette is scared to death of scholarships. Reason why? They are having an enormously difficult time keeping the lower band kids eligible at LC. And the fear worsens, because as he said to my old man, "These are the kinds Frank wants." They are worried he'll go after too many of them with full ticket rides. I am not sure why, because I am sure admissions offices and PL front offices would still impose certain legislation to ensure competitive student-athletes are recruited and brought in. But from someone on the front lines there, he was very frank about the concern in Easton from AD and faculty alike.

Not sure how this could affect presidential discussions the month, but I find it interesting from a person in the know over there that LC is struggling with some of its football players. I am sure it is not unique to the Leopards, I in no way intend to have my post poke fun at them. But it is a relevant viewpoint nonetheless.

Discuss.

Copy Stanford and Northwestern's model. They have better academics than Lafayette.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lafayette is scared to death of scholarships. Reason why? They are having an enormously difficult time keeping the lower band kids eligible at LC. And the fear worsens, because as he said to my old man, "These are the kinds Frank wants." They are worried he'll go after too many of them with full ticket rides. I am not sure why, because I am sure admissions offices and PL front offices would still impose certain legislation to ensure competitive student-athletes are recruited and brought in. But from someone on the front lines there, he was very frank about the concern in Easton from AD and faculty alike.

Not sure how this could affect presidential discussions the month, but I find it interesting from a person in the know over there that LC is struggling with some of its football players. I am sure it is not unique to the Leopards, I in no way intend to have my post poke fun at them. But it is a relevant viewpoint nonetheless.

On the surface, this doesn't make sense to me. Assuming that a PL coach would go after "too many" borderline players, it would affect their academic index for future years and be subject to presidential review. Without making anyone's hair hurt, 1) nobody can recruit below the floor of the league, and 2) the new "banding system" limits the number of players one can recruit near the floor.

Bottom line, with all these things in place I have a hard time seeing how someone could stuff the team with "borderline" players and get away with it. And nobody is talking about disbanding the academic index.

FWIW Lafayette's APR for 2007-2008 was 975, which was way beyond the median for football teams across Division I. So it's not like the NCAA would see Lafayette or any other PL school as a "rogue program" either. If anything, it's a model to which they hope other D-I schools aspire to.

[Franks Tanks]

On the surface, this doesn't make sense to me. Assuming that a PL coach would go after "too many" borderline players, it would affect their academic index for future years and be subject to presidential review. Without making anyone's hair hurt, 1) nobody can recruit below the floor of the league, and 2) the new "banding system" limits the number of players one can recruit near the floor.

Bottom line, with all these things in place I have a hard time seeing how someone could stuff the team with "borderline" players and get away with it. And nobody is talking about disbanding the academic index.

FWIW Lafayette's APR for 2007-2008 was 975, which was way beyond the median for football teams across Division I. So it's not like the NCAA would see Lafayette or any other PL school as a "rogue program" either. If anything, it's a model to which they hope other D-I schools aspire to.

What he said. With AI banding the kids must fit within certain criteria, so Frank would simply be unable to go after too many kids of a certain status. The lastest grad rate number indicate that Lafayette was at 95% and Lehigh 76%. These are from a few years back, but it is the most recent information available. But Lafayette is the school recruiting kids that dont graduate xeyebrowx

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/academics+and+athletes/education+and+research/academic+reform/gsr/2009/841gfw951_2009_d1_school_gsr_data.html

[DFW HOYA]

On the surface, this doesn't make sense to me. Assuming that a PL coach would go after "too many" borderline players, it would affect their academic index for future years and be subject to presidential review.

What is "presidential review"? It's not like they're going to kick LC out of the league if Tavani mines the low bands.

Also, it's been suggested the league was going to one single AI, so low band kids shouldn't affect one particular school, correct?

[Franks Tanks]

On the surface, this doesn't make sense to me. Assuming that a PL coach would go after "too many" borderline players, it would affect their academic index for future years and be subject to presidential review. Without making anyone's hair hurt, 1) nobody can recruit below the floor of the league, and 2) the new "banding system" limits the number of players one can recruit near the floor.

Bottom line, with all these things in place I have a hard time seeing how someone could stuff the team with "borderline" players and get away with it. And nobody is talking about disbanding the academic index.

FWIW Lafayette's APR for 2007-2008 was 975, which was way beyond the median for football teams across Division I. So it's not like the NCAA would see Lafayette or any other PL school as a "rogue program" either. If anything, it's a model to which they hope other D-I schools aspire to.


Lehigh's APR was a 955. Still very good but again below Lafayette's. Based on the lastest information available Lafayette has a better track record graduating FB players than Lehigh. If there is concern on the hill it is from elitest faculty who have no idea how we compare to our peer schools.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Doc QB - thanks for the grassroots insight. Al Gore said that the Pard down the block needn't worry about too much heavy lifting this winter, though! In any event, I have to guess that Frank T. knows what he's up against, even though he pushes the envelope now and again - that's why he gets the big bucks. The culture at Lafayette is absolutely manic about not treating athletes differently on-campus than any other student - so much so that there is more than an little academic "reverse discrimination" towards them from faculty that are cut in the Rothkopf mold. It is a very high-powered microscope.

[Doc QB]

I agree that it makes little sense that Tavani would be able to go after more borderline athletes with scholarships...it just what the SID said. I was simply referencing an interesting conversation between a Lafayette staffer whose job it is to know the program inside and out. And those were his comments. I was surprised too, as I know LC graduated at a better rate than Lehigh, it was thrown about on this board a year ago. I feel that his comments are alarming, because a comment regarding LC being uncomfortable with scholarships, in light of the PL banding rules makes no sense--but what it may provide is insight into what people on the Hill are really talking about and thinking.

I know the damn PL recruiting rules and regs, and how it affects the athletes... I WAS ONE. And truth be known, my SATS were not even above 1100 back in '90. And I graduated (albeit, unfortunately, from a tougher school once I transferred). I was one of "those" guys. I take no offense when marginal or borderline athletes are discussed here, I knew my work ethic as well as my genetic cerebral limitations. Guys like me are sometimes getting passed over sometimes as competition for the general student body escalates and GPAs and SATs climb, and AI bands climb accordingly. But I saw plenty of the guys recruited to be career bench players but pad the GPA fall flat on their academic faces too. We all have those stories about those guys as well I am certain.

That being said, please, refrain from telling my patients I was a Natty Boh soaked ATO-jock with sub 1200 SATs who would probably trade my MD degree for a LU-LC game MVP trophy I was never talented enough to stay and earn....

[Franks Tanks]

I agree that it makes little sense that Tavani would be able to go after more borderline athletes with scholarships...it just what the SID said. I was simply referencing an interesting conversation between a Lafayette staffer whose job it is to know the program inside and out. And those were his comments. I was surprised too, as I know LC graduated at a better rate than Lehigh, it was thrown about on this board a year ago. I feel that his comments are alarming, because a comment regarding LC being uncomfortable with scholarships, in light of the PL banding rules makes no sense--but what it may provide is insight into what people on the Hill are really talking about and thinking.

I know the damn PL recruiting rules and regs, and how it affects the athletes... I WAS ONE. And truth be known, my SATS were not even above 1100 back in '90. And I graduated (albeit, unfortunately, from a tougher school once I transferred). I was one of "those" guys. I take no offense when marginal or borderline athletes are discussed here, I knew my work ethic as well as my genetic cerebral limitations. Guys like me are sometimes getting passed over sometimes as competition for the general student body escalates and GPAs and SATs climb, and AI bands climb accordingly. But I saw plenty of the guys recruited to be career bench players but pad the GPA fall flat on their academic faces too. We all have those stories about those guys as well I am certain.

That being said, please, refrain from telling my patients I was a Natty Boh soaked ATO-jock with sub 1200 SATs who would probably trade my MD degree for a LU-LC game MVP trophy I was never talented enough to stay and earn....


DOC -- I understand you were relaying what was told to you. I didnt mean to come across as attacking you, just being very curious of why the Lafayette insider would say what he did.

Comparing that grad rate figures from 99-02 to the current APR (which is from 07) it appears Lafayette has slipped a bit as far a grad rate goes. In the 99-02 time period we trailed only Colgate in grad rate, now we lead only Lehigh and Fordham. So yes our grad rate has slipped a bit from the 95% we were at from 99-02 it appears. But these egg heads must understand that we still graduate FB players at a tremendous rate.

In my class at Lafayette we did have a few guys who never made it, but it was quite clear early on they simply werent going to cut it.

[Doc QB]

Tanks---never felt attacked, I assure you. I agree that the SID statements don't make a ton of sense given the AI banding, but may be more indicative of some other unrest in Easton. Interesting.

I guess I am little annoyed the SID thought it was the bordeline guys who were the problem. Did he assume or did he know the low band guys were the problem? I take a little bit of pride having done reasonably well in college and then seeing some of the general pop guys struggle, guys with the prep school ties and higher boards and stuff. I love knowing football opened doors for me, that throwing for 2000 yards as a HS kid was more important to me than 1400 SATs (and to the coaches at the schools who recruited me, and got me in). Knowing those doors were not open without the stats (not SATs).

That Dec meeting will be interesting!

[OLPOP]

Does anyone know when the meeting is?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I know the damn PL recruiting rules and regs, and how it affects the athletes... I WAS ONE. And truth be known, my SATS were not even above 1100 back in '90. And I graduated (albeit, unfortunately, from a tougher school once I transferred). I was one of "those" guys. I take no offense when marginal or borderline athletes are discussed here, I knew my work ethic as well as my genetic cerebral limitations. Guys like me are sometimes getting passed over sometimes as competition for the general student body escalates and GPAs and SATs climb, and AI bands climb accordingly. But I saw plenty of the guys recruited to be career bench players but pad the GPA fall flat on their academic faces too. We all have those stories about those guys as well I am certain.

This does bring something up that I do think gets lost sometimes: while there is a dropout rate for athletes, there's also a dropout rate for the school, too. Even though I was in the school of arts & science I took a fair amount of engineering courses and knew a lot of engineers and their weeder courses - at least when I was going to school, they were designed to fail people. Not only athletes drop out - something that I think is often forgotten, as if everyone can hack being in college, especially PL schools.

I'd expect the "dropout rate" to be even more for D-I athletes since they still take to tough courses and then have an "extra-curricular activity" that eats up a huge hunk of time - and not just during the season. A fair amount give up football in order to swim academically, too.

I'm also pretty sure that from someone named "Doc QB" that your "cerebral limitations" is an exaggeration. :D

[RichH2]

The meeting if it follows past practice s/b sometime next week. Looked to see if any date set.Could not find one?

[OLPOP]

Thank you, Rich.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

I'm pissed at Georgetown, though. We all know that the Hoyas can and should be competitive in the PL. Everyone wants Georgetown in the league to stay - I wish it could be for all sports. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed on the new AD.

Any word on Kelly's potential demise?




Is this even remotely a possibility? Or wishful thinking? Why would Georgetown even consider leaving the Big East for the PL [for all sports]? I don't think there is any AD in the world that would even consider that move.

If I were Georgetown's AD, instead I'd be asking why do we have a football team and are missing out on the Big East football money?

I still would like to know if there is any validity to Bogus Megapardus's comment.

Thanks for the info.

[TheValleyRaider]

I still would like to know if there is any validity to Bogus Megapardus's comment.

Thanks for the info.

No, merely wishful thinking on the part of a individual

I can't speak for Georgetown, but I do not see it as being remotely plausible that Georgetown would leave the Big East for the Patriot League in any sport beyond Football

[LawDutch]

I did not read all of the pages in this tread, but do Fordham fans want the move to the CAA? I have to think they would be one of the worst teams in the CAA at least until they get to 63 scholarships, which may take years.

Even if the PL went scholly, I doubt Fordham sticks around. While they would be smart to move all of their teams to the PL, which is an excellent fit for the school academically, their home is in the A-10 now and for at least the near future.

Keeler's comments were interesting and if Fordham does join the CAA, it makes me think that the A-10 will be sponsoring football again in the near future. With Charlotte forming a football program, that makes 5 A-10 teams playing scholarship FCS football. I don't know what Charlotte's long-term aspirations for their program is, but I have to believe they would want to play in the CAA if they stayed in the FCS.

At that point, the CAA could split, with the CAA associate teams joining the new conference, which would definitely be considered for one of the new auto-bids. More likely in my opinion, you have some sort of North-South split in the CAA, where maybe Charlotte and Richmond move to the CAA and Delaware and Hofstra move to the A-10 in all sports. This would definitely cut down on travel costs, which may play a larger role in the future. Just my two cents.

[henfan]

At that point, the CAA could split, with the CAA associate teams joining the new conference, which would definitely be considered for one of the new auto-bids. More likely in my opinion, you have some sort of North-South split in the CAA, where maybe Charlotte and Richmond move to the CAA and Delaware and Hofstra move to the A-10 in all sports. This would definitely cut down on travel costs, which may play a larger role in the future. Just my two cents.

Never is a long time but I feel pretty safe in saying that UD will never join the Atlantic 10. It just makes no sense from almost any perspective, more so with regular trips to St. Louis and Dayton facing Olympic sport teams. That ship has long since sailed for UD.

[Bogus Megapardus]

do Fordham fans want the move to the CAA?

On the Fordham message board you can get a sampling of the various views on this topic.


I still would like to know if there is any validity to Bogus Megapardus's comment.

With respect to Georgetown joining the PL? It is merely a precatory notion of mine, and mine alone.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I still would like to know if there is any validity to Bogus Megapardus's comment.

With respect to Georgetown joining the PL? It is merely a precatory notion of mine, and mine alone.

[Redwyn]

I did not read all of the pages in this tread, but do Fordham fans want the move to the CAA? I have to think they would be one of the worst teams in the CAA at least until they get to 63 scholarships, which may take years.

Even if the PL went scholly, I doubt Fordham sticks around. While they would be smart to move all of their teams to the PL, which is an excellent fit for the school academically, their home is in the A-10 now and for at least the near future.

Keeler's comments were interesting and if Fordham does join the CAA, it makes me think that the A-10 will be sponsoring football again in the near future. With Charlotte forming a football program, that makes 5 A-10 teams playing scholarship FCS football. I don't know what Charlotte's long-term aspirations for their program is, but I have to believe they would want to play in the CAA if they stayed in the FCS.

At that point, the CAA could split, with the CAA associate teams joining the new conference, which would definitely be considered for one of the new auto-bids. More likely in my opinion, you have some sort of North-South split in the CAA, where maybe Charlotte and Richmond move to the CAA and Delaware and Hofstra move to the A-10 in all sports. This would definitely cut down on travel costs, which may play a larger role in the future. Just my two cents.

While a great concept on paper, I don't believe this change will happen until the CAA brings up the level of its olympic sports (particularly basketball) to match the A-10. Richmond and Charlotte are very unlikely to move down from a conference that has reached the level of "stepchild" to the Big East/Big Ten.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The biggest variable to all this is whether the Big East implodes into a Football league and a non football league. It's conceivable that a new parochial league could evolve. At that time Georgetown could have their choice of this new parochial league or full Patriot for membership. I'd guess they'd opt for the parochial "Big East", but who knows.

This implosion would impact the A-10 with schools like St. Josephs and LaSalle a prime candidate for the new Parochial BE. And maybe the midwest schools form their own parochial league (DePaul, Marquette, Dayton, Xavier, St. Louis, etc.)?

If the dominoes fell in this manner, then yes an all sports league (call it the A-10 or CAA North or CAA "Lower Aspirations") could also evolve. UMass, URI, Maine, UNH, Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham, and Hofstra would be the base/core. Northeastern would have been team #9. JMHO, as long as the current A-10 exists then UMass would be opposed to this alignment. If the evolution put UMass in this regional alignment, would it push them into something with Temple and Buffalo in the MAC or into a CAA Higher Aspirations with Temple, JMU, ODU, GaStU, App St, GaSoU, East Carolina, Marshall, Jax State, etc. (I left Delaware out despite aspirations and resources because I don't think they'd want to be part of this group, geography and academics (for athletes) as the primary reasons.) UD and Towson would then be prime candidates for CAA Lower Aspirations/new A-10. America East could become a league for the non-football schools.

I think my main point is that it is going to take something seismic on the national scale to force enough change for Georgetown, Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, etc. to consider a different conference.

[Redwyn]

The biggest variable to all this is whether the Big East implodes into a Football league and a non football league. It's conceivable that a new parochial league could evolve. At that time Georgetown could have their choice of this new parochial league or full Patriot for membership. I'd guess they'd opt for the parochial "Big East", but who knows.

This implosion would impact the A-10 with schools like St. Josephs and LaSalle a prime candidate for the new Parochial BE. And maybe the midwest schools form their own parochial league (DePaul, Marquette, Dayton, Xavier, St. Louis, etc.)?

If the dominoes fell in this manner, then yes an all sports league (call it the A-10 or CAA North or CAA "Lower Aspirations") could also evolve. UMass, URI, Maine, UNH, Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham, and Hofstra would be the base/core. Northeastern would have been team #9. JMHO, as long as the current A-10 exists then UMass would be opposed to this alignment. If the evolution put UMass in this regional alignment, would it push them into something with Temple and Buffalo in the MAC or into a CAA Higher Aspirations with Temple, JMU, ODU, GaStU, App St, GaSoU, East Carolina, Marshall, Jax State, etc. (I left Delaware out despite aspirations and resources because I don't think they'd want to be part of this group, geography and academics (for athletes) as the primary reasons.) UD and Towson would then be prime candidates for CAA Lower Aspirations/new A-10. America East could become a league for the non-football schools.

I think my main point is that it is going to take something seismic on the national scale to force enough change for Georgetown, Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, etc. to consider a different conference.

Whether the school's performance reflects it or not, ADs at SBU are not interested in another Mid-Major association. The school's size puts it in a very strong point of contention with high major/major programs, and I don't believe their next conference switch will be to anything but one of these major associations. The MAC is a possibility, though I believe all eyes are set on the Big East as the next change, very, very, very far down the line.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The biggest variable to all this is whether the Big East implodes into a Football league and a non football league. It's conceivable that a new parochial league could evolve. At that time Georgetown could have their choice of this new parochial league or full Patriot for membership. I'd guess they'd opt for the parochial "Big East", but who knows.

This implosion would impact the A-10 with schools like St. Josephs and LaSalle a prime candidate for the new Parochial BE. And maybe the midwest schools form their own parochial league (DePaul, Marquette, Dayton, Xavier, St. Louis, etc.)?

If the dominoes fell in this manner, then yes an all sports league (call it the A-10 or CAA North or CAA "Lower Aspirations") could also evolve. UMass, URI, Maine, UNH, Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham, and Hofstra would be the base/core. Northeastern would have been team #9. JMHO, as long as the current A-10 exists then UMass would be opposed to this alignment. If the evolution put UMass in this regional alignment, would it push them into something with Temple and Buffalo in the MAC or into a CAA Higher Aspirations with Temple, JMU, ODU, GaStU, App St, GaSoU, East Carolina, Marshall, Jax State, etc. (I left Delaware out despite aspirations and resources because I don't think they'd want to be part of this group, geography and academics (for athletes) as the primary reasons.) UD and Towson would then be prime candidates for CAA Lower Aspirations/new A-10. America East could become a league for the non-football schools.

I think my main point is that it is going to take something seismic on the national scale to force enough change for Georgetown, Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, etc. to consider a different conference.

How do travel costs factor in? In the go-go spending years pre-2008, a league featuring Marquette, South Florida and Providence in the same BE may have made some sense. Now that all higher education is hung over from overspending, could there be more interest in a regional model?

I say because I'm convinced that Georgia State's inclusion in CAA North has been a major bone of contention for many (if not all) of the schools, and I think it was a factor in Northeastern's abandonment of football.

If the trend is going to be towards more regional conferences, then the Big East could even realign into three different conferences, adding a heaping number of A-10 schools (which would reverberate to the CAA/Patriot/NEC/AE).

The only problem with this is Big East football, which hosts teams from Cincy to USF without much rhyme, reason or synergy. But maybe trades could be made - BC for USF, for example, and/or Penn State for Cincy - that might make it more regional. It wouldn't be easy, but if costs are really becoming more of a deal breaker, conferences might actually look at such trades.

I'm not saying such trades are likely or anything, but I bet a thought is being reserved for moves like that, as ludicrous as they sound today.

[DFW HOYA]

The biggest variable to all this is whether the Big East implodes into a Football league and a non football league. It's conceivable that a new parochial league could evolve. At that time Georgetown could have their choice of this new parochial league or full Patriot for membership. I'd guess they'd opt for the parochial "Big East", but who knows.

This is not part of the topic at hand, and let's leave it to another topic, but it would not be in Georgetown or Villanova's best interests to settle for either option above in basketball. The Georgetown athletic budget is the size of a small WAC or MWC program now and could not stay above water with the revenue streams of a PL or "Catholic League" model. These two schools' costs are closer to a South Florida than a Providence College at this point.

Obviously, the football expenses haven't kept pace but neither have the revenues from the unfinished MSF.

[GannonFan]

How do travel costs factor in? In the go-go spending years pre-2008, a league featuring Marquette, South Florida and Providence in the same BE may have made some sense. Now that all higher education is hung over from overspending, could there be more interest in a regional model?

I say because I'm convinced that Georgia State's inclusion in CAA North has been a major bone of contention for many (if not all) of the schools, and I think it was a factor in Northeastern's abandonment of football.

If the trend is going to be towards more regional conferences, then the Big East could even realign into three different conferences, adding a heaping number of A-10 schools (which would reverberate to the CAA/Patriot/NEC/AE).

The only problem with this is Big East football, which hosts teams from Cincy to USF without much rhyme, reason or synergy. But maybe trades could be made - BC for USF, for example, and/or Penn State for Cincy - that might make it more regional. It wouldn't be easy, but if costs are really becoming more of a deal breaker, conferences might actually look at such trades.

I'm not saying such trades are likely or anything, but I bet a thought is being reserved for moves like that, as ludicrous as they sound today.

I agree that costs are an issue, but it's much, much less of an issue at those big schools. The Big East isn't hurting at all right now due to travel costs, for instance, even with the spread out format. And Penn State isn't about to leave the Big Ten because of costs - they almost print money right now, so why they would leave schools they match up well with (even beyond athletics, they look like those schools in terms of academics as well) to join a Big East conference that that have shunned for decades doesn't make sense. Costs are a factor for non-BCS conferences - the BCS conferences are doing great with the current environment.

As for Northeastern, their decision to drop football went way beyond Georgia State. Was it an issue? Hard to say since we don't even know what the scheduling was going to be when they came in. Most ideas had Northeastern travelling there once every 4 years. The didn't drop football because of one football trip to Atlanta once every 4 years. More likely, they looked at the money being spent on sports programs elsewhere (i.e. JMU's new stadium, ODU's entrance into the conference, etc) and decided they couldn't compete long term with that. Besides, it's not as if they hadn't thought about dropping football at least 2 other times since 1990 - NU football was always in danger of folding.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Writing my prior post reminded me how screwed up the leagues are in the Northeast. And that's mainly because of many royal "F ups" over the past three decades.

For years Penn State wanted an Eastern league with the big time football schools, yet it never evolved. Whether it was egos or incompetency or both, one league should be:

Penn State, Pitt, West Virginia, Syracuse, UConn, BC, Rutgers, and Temple. You could complete the Ohio River branch with Louisville and Cincinnati for ten teams for a balanced basketball league.

The Patriot could have made a decision back in the 80's that would have brought William & Mary into the fold. It would have been interesting to see what Richmond did. I'm guessing that they join the Patriot rather than the Yankee in 1986. Since that time the Patriot could have had Hofstra, Northeastern and Marist. It is not inconceivable that the Patriot would today be Colgate, Fordham, Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh, Villanova, Holy Cross, William & Mary, Richmond and VMI. (I have no doubt that Villanova would have gone Patriot rather than Yankee/A-10 during their revival had Richmond and W&M been on board.) Would the Patriot have even taken Towson or Georgetown when they did? Doubt it.

Similar to Penn State, all Delaware wanted over the years was an all sports conference that included football. America East had an opportunity to provide that. Maine, UNH, Northeastern, Hofstra, Delaware, Towson, JMU and William & Mary would have been together in an all sports league. UMass and URI could have been affiliates. Even if JMU and William & Mary opted out for their own reasons (geography, academics, aspirations, etc.), there would have been Albany and Stony Brook on the horizon.

America East Football would have been Maine, UNH, Northeastern (would they have still cut the program?), Hofstra, Delaware, Towson, JMU and most likely Albany and Stony Brook. ODU would have been within AE after the proposed merger with the CAA, would they have still evolved into a football school? Probably. And more than likely they and JMU would have migrated into a more southern league. America East Football would then have been Maine, UNH, NU, Albany, Stony Brook, Hofstra, Delaware and Towson as all sports members with UMass and URI as affiliates.

But unfortunately, none of this evolved. Things would be a heck of a lot more stable today if they had! There wouldn't be a 13 team CAA, GaStU wouldn't be in a Mid-Atlantic/Northeast League, the Patriot wouldn't be on the verge of going to six teams and relying on an affiliate member to retain its AQ, we wouldn't have multiple leagues that are a hodge podge of schools with odd mixes of football and non-football schools. xoopsx xoopsx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

This is not part of the topic at hand, and let's leave it to another topic, but it would not be in Georgetown or Villanova's best interests to settle for either option above in basketball. The Georgetown athletic budget is the size of a small WAC or MWC program now and could not stay above water with the revenue streams of a PL or "Catholic League" model. These two schools' costs are closer to a South Florida than a Providence College at this point.

Obviously, the football expenses haven't kept pace but neither have the revenues from the unfinished MSF.

Would Georgetown or Villanova have any choice if the football schools break off? Other than moving their football programs up to FBS? They may want to keep their basketball programs with UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, etc. but if the football schools break off, they won't have that option without upgrading football.

[GannonFan]

(I have no doubt that Villanova would have gone Patriot rather than Yankee/A-10 during their revival had Richmond and W&M been on board.)

The thing is, if I remember correctly, nova decided to join and did join the Yankee prior to W&M even being offered membership. When nova started up football again in 1985 they decided then to join the Yankee, knowing then that UD and Richmond had just been admitted as the first non-New England teams in that conference, and they started league play in 1986. Schools like W&M and JMU came into the conference in the early '90's.

Knowing where nova came from before they dropped football and what they wanted when they restarted it, I don't see why they would've gone to the Patriot even if Richmond and W&M were there - was there any connection between those three schools back then? And besides, the big question would've been whether the Patriot decided then to offer scholarships - the Patriot as it was formed in the '80's was about de-emphasizing football by not offering scholarships, and to provide a safe haven for teams that wanted to do that. I don't think nova would've restarted football for that.

[DFW HOYA]

The Patriot could have made a decision back in the 80's that would have brought William & Mary into the fold. It would have been interesting to see what Richmond did. I'm guessing that they join the Patriot rather than the Yankee in 1986. Since that time the Patriot could have had Hofstra, Northeastern and Marist. It is not inconceivable that the Patriot would today be Colgate, Fordham, Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh, Villanova, Holy Cross, William & Mary, Richmond and VMI. (I have no doubt that Villanova would have gone Patriot rather than Yankee/A-10 during their revival had Richmond and W&M been on board.) Would the Patriot have even taken Towson or Georgetown when they did? Doubt it.

Where would Georgetown and Towson be playing under that scenario? NEC?

And by the way, if Rev. John Brooks had been assigned to almost any other place than Mt. St. James in the New England Province, Holy Cross would be playing in the Big East right now, with the revenues that funded the showplace of New England football, the 45,000 seat "Hanover Insurance Field at Fitton Stadium" and the NCAA monies that built the 8,000 seat Bob Cousy Center.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

How do travel costs factor in? In the go-go spending years pre-2008, a league featuring Marquette, South Florida and Providence in the same BE may have made some sense. Now that all higher education is hung over from overspending, could there be more interest in a regional model?

I say because I'm convinced that Georgia State's inclusion in CAA North has been a major bone of contention for many (if not all) of the schools, and I think it was a factor in Northeastern's abandonment of football.

If the trend is going to be towards more regional conferences, then the Big East could even realign into three different conferences, adding a heaping number of A-10 schools (which would reverberate to the CAA/Patriot/NEC/AE).

The only problem with this is Big East football, which hosts teams from Cincy to USF without much rhyme, reason or synergy. But maybe trades could be made - BC for USF, for example, and/or Penn State for Cincy - that might make it more regional. It wouldn't be easy, but if costs are really becoming more of a deal breaker, conferences might actually look at such trades.

I'm not saying such trades are likely or anything, but I bet a thought is being reserved for moves like that, as ludicrous as they sound today.

I'm not sure about travel costs either. People keep talking about it, yet there are no rumblings of re-alignment because of travel costs. MaineJeff keeps talking about it, but I see absolutely no sign of UMass or URI switching their all sports affiliation from the huge A-10 footprint. And like GF said, it's not really an issue to the big schools since they have so much money.

If anything, I'd think it would be Georgia State looking for a new home if the travel costs were that much of a factor. They're the ones who will be traveling via plane for every conference road game. A SoCon, Big South or even OVC slate would be significantly less expensive travel wise.

[Dane96]

Whether the school's performance reflects it or not, ADs at SBU are not interested in another Mid-Major association. The school's size puts it in a very strong point of contention with high major/major programs, and I don't believe their next conference switch will be to anything but one of these major associations. The MAC is a possibility, though I believe all eyes are set on the Big East as the next change, very, very, very far down the line.

Redwyn...you keep speaking of what Fiore wants. Fiore 'aint getting what he wants. The Arena renovations have been put on hold, as has the addition to the stadium. He also has to reduce his $21 mm budget.

Now, I know you keep saying alumni will step up...but we too have seen this problem at Albany (and at UNH, and at UMASS, etc); until that money is flush in the pockets of the ADEPT...it aint there.

SBU is not going to the MAC, BIG EAST or any other non-mid major conference for YEARS.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The thing is, if I remember correctly, nova decided to join and did join the Yankee prior to W&M even being offered membership. When nova started up football again in 1985 they decided then to join the Yankee, knowing then that UD and Richmond had just been admitted as the first non-New England teams in that conference, and they started league play in 1986. Schools like W&M and JMU came into the conference in the early '90's.

Knowing where nova came from before they dropped football and what they wanted when they restarted it, I don't see why they would've gone to the Patriot even if Richmond and W&M were there - was there any connection between those three schools back then? And besides, the big question would've been whether the Patriot decided then to offer scholarships - the Patriot as it was formed in the '80's was about de-emphasizing football by not offering scholarships, and to provide a safe haven for teams that wanted to do that. I don't think nova would've restarted football for that.

I was basing my thoughts on the Patriot agreeing to some level of scholarships which would have brought W&M on board in theory. Don't you think Richmond would rather stay with their closest rival in that scenario? I'm just saying the landscape would have been different when Nova was making their decisions back in the 80's. And I sure don't know if their ties to Delaware would have been strong enough to have Nova join a now very northern, very public Yankee Conference. Logically, it just seems they'd have significantly more in common with the Patriot schools especially geographically with Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette. Add in the strong Ivy tie for games with Penn and Princeton. That's why I think W&M and UR in the Patriot would have resulted in a different decision by Nova. Just my opinion that all those ties would be stronger than one with UD.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Where would Georgetown and Towson be playing under that scenario? NEC?

And by the way, if Rev. John Brooks had been assigned to almost any other place than Mt. St. James in the New England Province, Holy Cross would be playing in the Big East right now, with the revenues that funded the showplace of New England football, the 45,000 seat "Hanover Insurance Field at Fitton Stadium" and the NCAA monies that built the 8,000 seat Bob Cousy Center.

Towson would be in AE Football. Not sure what Georgetown would have done when the MAAC folded? Would the MAAC have folded?

Yep, well aware of the repercussions of that Holy Cross decision not to join the Big East. Not sure UConn gets a BE invite, not sure UConn Football evolves into a FBS program. Yep, Holy Cross could be the second FBS program in New England and probably BC is still in the Big East. Not sure if HC could have sustained everything with the way expenses have raised over the decades, but no doubt we're looking at a very, very different HC today.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not sure about travel costs either. People keep talking about it, yet there are no rumblings of re-alignment because of travel costs. MaineJeff keeps talking about it, but I see absolutely no sign of UMass or URI switching their all sports affiliation from the huge A-10 footprint. And like GF said, it's not really an issue to the big schools since they have so much money.

That certainly is true of Penn State, but what about schools such as USF and Cincy? If Rutgers is barely making money, they can't be any better. I don't think Big East football is as healthy as folks think it is. Sure, a school a year gets a big BCS payout (Cincy will clean up this year, for example), but not every school is benefiting - and you can point to travel costs as a huge issue.

The A-10 footprint is huge because they, like the Big East, gorged on spending the last seven years in an effort to become a basketball superconference. But I think even in the halls of the A-10 folks have to be thinking: What if we traded away Dayton and Xavier, and replaced them with Northeastern and Vermont? Sure, the RPI would take a hit for a year - but in the long run, would it really hurt that much? And what are the savings - not only in basketball, but in all sports?

Again, I'm not sure that it's something that WILL happen. But they have to be devoting some thought to it.

This may not be an issue for UMass, which seems to think they could still become a part of the Big East, but it most certainly is for URI, who has seen huge cutbacks.

[GannonFan]

I was basing my thoughts on the Patriot agreeing to some level of scholarships which would have brought W&M on board in theory. Don't you think Richmond would rather stay with their closest rival in that scenario? I'm just saying the landscape would have been different when Nova was making their decisions back in the 80's. And I sure don't know if their ties to Delaware would have been strong enough to have Nova join a now very northern, very public Yankee Conference. Logically, it just seems they'd have significantly more in common with the Patriot schools especially geographically with Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette. Add in the strong Ivy tie for games with Penn and Princeton. That's why I think W&M and UR in the Patriot would have resulted in a different decision by Nova. Just my opinion that all those ties would be stronger than one with UD.

Well, the Richmond/W&M thing doesn't make much sense - Richmond joined the Yankee in 1986, and W&M didn't join until 1993 - that's 7 years of Richmond being in one conference and W&M not being in it. Back then, conference affiliation wasn't that big of a deal since so many teams were independent and conferences were very fluid.

So nova did join a Yankee conference that was very Northern when they joined it - only UD and Richmond were the non-New England teams and again, nova had no real ties with Richmond and that's as much of a trip as it is to the Northern schools anyway. They joined because of Delaware (hard to underestimate that tie) and because they wanted to play full scholarship football (and I'm sure they even harbored ideas of I-AA football just being a potential first step to going back to I-A football where they were before they dropped the sport).

I think all of it may have been different if the Patriot League was a scholarship conference when it started, but then again, how many of those schools would've still wanted to form it if that was the case - the Bucknell's and Lehigh's and so on made the Patriot League because they didn't want to play that kind of football - throwing that wrench into the thinking is really changing history.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I was basing my thoughts on the Patriot agreeing to some level of scholarships which would have brought W&M on board in theory.

That would have never happened. The whole philosophy of the Patriot League at that time was to embrace "non-scholarship sports", eschewing the postseason and aligning themselves with the Ivy League. This included basketball, which cost the league Fordham in all sports except football and almost killed the entire Patriot League.

It's documented in John Feinstein's book The Last Amateurs that the league was founded as a part of an exploratory study by members of the Ivy League to, for lack of a better term, form a "sister conference" to the Ivy that shared their "values" of amateurism and postseason play. Over the last 20 years, that vision has changed somewhat - heck, it's taken 20 years to have the league even consider scholarships for football players - but I think that W&M's inclusion in the PL was basically DOA from the get-go.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

That would have never happened. The whole philosophy of the Patriot League at that time was to embrace "non-scholarship sports", eschewing the postseason and aligning themselves with the Ivy League. This included basketball, which cost the league Fordham in all sports except football and almost killed the entire Patriot League.

It's documented in John Feinstein's book The Last Amateurs that the league was founded as a part of an exploratory study by members of the Ivy League to, for lack of a better term, form a "sister conference" to the Ivy that shared their "values" of amateurism and postseason play. Over the last 20 years, that vision has changed somewhat - heck, it's taken 20 years to have the league even consider scholarships for football players - but I think that W&M's inclusion in the PL was basically DOA from the get-go.

I understand that LFN. My point is that if back in the 80's the PL had instead opted for a marriage of some level of scholarship while still maintaining high academic standards that the landscape would be significantly different today. And the Patriot would have avoided much of the growing pain that evolved from the decisions you document. If the Patriot had added W&M back in the day, IMHO things would very different today.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Well, the Richmond/W&M thing doesn't make much sense - Richmond joined the Yankee in 1986, and W&M didn't join until 1993 - that's 7 years of Richmond being in one conference and W&M not being in it. Back then, conference affiliation wasn't that big of a deal since so many teams were independent and conferences were very fluid.

So nova did join a Yankee conference that was very Northern when they joined it - only UD and Richmond were the non-New England teams and again, nova had no real ties with Richmond and that's as much of a trip as it is to the Northern schools anyway. They joined because of Delaware (hard to underestimate that tie) and because they wanted to play full scholarship football (and I'm sure they even harbored ideas of I-AA football just being a potential first step to going back to I-A football where they were before they dropped the sport).

I think all of it may have been different if the Patriot League was a scholarship conference when it started, but then again, how many of those schools would've still wanted to form it if that was the case - the Bucknell's and Lehigh's and so on made the Patriot League because they didn't want to play that kind of football - throwing that wrench into the thinking is really changing history.

Why doesn't it make sense? From what I understand back in the early to mid 80's W&M was offered membership in the "Patriot" (it wasn't called that back then), agreed to join (!!) then backed out over a disagreement about scholarships. W&M and Richmond were both looking for I-AA homes after deciding they didn't want to be part of the I-A "arms race". This was before Richmond joined the Yankee let alone playing seven years in the conference. Why wouldn't W&M's decision influence Richmond deciding to join the Yankee in 1986? I view W&M and Richmond at that time to be more joined at the hip than Delaware and Villanova since they were both part of the Southern Conference, playing each other in all sports and having that football rivalry decades old. Less travel in the new Patriot than the Yankee too.

Again, all I'm trying to point out is a very different decision by the Patriot would indeed have been a history changing one. And frankly it could have been made without really compromising their standards. And actually your last paragraph is actually what I'm talking about, the Patriot starting with some level of scholarships.

[Fordham]

RamRay,

i have tried to stay out of this thread and will continue to try to refrain after this response until we have some additional information. having said that, i will respond to a few of your points/ questions starting with the last one.

- i believe the comments of Bogus are the feelings of a minority of PL fans. i find them and the elitism of other posts on occasion to be disturbing. i think a carefiul accouting would reveal a majority of posters here support Fordham in the PL and hope that it works out and you remain. in summary, to attribute the views of Bogus as the general perspective of PL fans is bogus.

- on the other hand, i think your dismissal of the ill will created by some Fordham fans is in error. fortunately most of the Fordham posters on this board are level headed objective posters a majority of the time (and as for the times they may not be, whose perspective and objectivity among us sports fanatics is not occasionally biased by our fandom and support?) however, if you step outside of this board, see the Fordham fan boards as a prime example, there are quite a few who villify the PL. they blame the PL for lasting damage to the entire athleitc program some 15 years after leaving and repeatedly denigrate the PL as a whole. from my vantage point, they contribute to the negative response from fans of the other schools. i will admit to having wished ill will on Fordham athletics when I read the following quote from the esteemed jackass of all jackasses rambacker, following a recent loss by your womens's basketball team to Bucknell:

"How can any of our teams lose to Bucknell? Not a good sign."

this is an ignorant statement which based on his posting history is based on Bucknell being in the PL. Bucknell has an excellent overall athletics program where i expect a majority of our teams would defeat Fordham in head to head competition.

- as for Fordham pushing for football scholarships, my personal take, and what i perceive as the take of many non-Fordham fans on this board is that they are well within their rights and in fact many of us respect the fact that they gave the PL leadership the "***** or get off the pot" ultimatum. the PL presidents are grossly guilty of a failure of leadership with respect to addressing this issue. it has been festering for years and they continue to operate believing the rest of the world should be willing to wait and operate on their overly deliberate timetable. they need to come to a conclusion on this issue and move forward one way or another.

- as for the Fordham gets no respect from the PL, i.e. see basketball scholarship issue as a prime example, i think these are distincty different situations under which the decision is to be made. when Fordham demanded basketball scholarships and the PL refused, the league leaders still believed the pure need based model could succeed and stuck to their principles and let Fordham get away. in retrospect they were wrong (and i wish/hope they have learned from that error). when HC demanded a couple years later, the decision was different. it was clear at that time that the choice had become, acquiese to HCs demand or see the league collapse (Army was out the door as well if HC left). at that time the decision was to preserve the league at the expense of preserving the need based model. this time around the need based model is not a true defense for rejecting football scholarships. to the extent it has been referenced by the commissioner, that is horse crap. however, linking the current debate to the decision wrt basketball and conluding that the league is out to get or disrespect Fordham is not valid in my view.

great post.

overall I agree that there is no grand conspiracy to get Fordham. At the same time we've been on the receiving end of some PL decisions that have certainly damaged the PL brand in many Fordham fans' eyes. Imo those things can pretty much be lumped into a combination of coincidence, inept athletic mngt at FU and the impact of being an affiliate member in a league and thus, understandably not having the same importance/sway as a full league member.

our initial decision to leave the PL after our hoops scholarship classes graduated and we dropped to oblivion is a result of that poor athletic mgnt. The fact that HC does the same thing so soon thereafter and the league acquiesces is one of those coincidences, but a very damaging one to the PL brand (again, only speaking here of FU fans' eyes) since it begs the question of why they didn't allow them just 2 years earlier (do i have that timing right?) when they could have kept us. At a minimum you have a core group of FU fans who were appalled by the initial move to a non-scholarship league even more ammo to rip the PL since they turned around and offered them so soon thereafter. Maybe if there was more of a break between them telling us 'no' and telling HC 'yes' the impact would have been lessened.

the recent AI decision certainly falls into the category of us not having much influence as full members. the fact that G-town is also an affiliate and who the decision benefits the most is coincidental imo. If Gtown was with Fordham as the only schools negatively impacted by the change, I'm certain it still would have gone through. If it were one of the core 4, however, my bet is that it would not have. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but another decision that left a mark. To make things worse, we were supposedly told that scholarships would be implemented immediately following the AI and then they went back on that promise since making the move would have caused a problem with a core 4 member. FWIW, this is the one decision that did it for me personally since I feel it flies in the face of the stated goal or reason of the AI itself and also b/c one school was singled out in the negative and it happened to be mine. That said, I agree that there is no conspiracy at play, just a league decision that positively impacted most members that they felt they had to take.

so, again, i agree that there is no grand conspiracy, just this swirl of bad timing, bad coincidence, etc. at the same time I think it's perfectly understandable for a Fordham fan to feel no great love or affinity for the league,given this history.

my feeling is that as much as there is no grand conspiracy against us there also hasn't been much done to strengthen Fordham's ties with the PL in all the years we've been affiliates. That has created this situation where these individual decisions are allowed to pile up in the negative column without much offset. begs some questions to me:

*are there things the league has done for Fordham or other affiliates to strengthen their ties to the league that i'm not giving them credit for here?

*how do Gtown fans feel about the league? is it a "core-4 call the shots" feeling as well or do you think it's more equitable than that?

*do HC fans feel that they're an equal partner and it's really a core 5 group or do they think this is a BU/CU/LC/LU league?

*what could they league have done to strengthen ties with the affiliates better? Making the scholarship decision sooner (at least allowing all schools to do their own thing, ala hoops) is clearly one imo.

[Franks Tanks]

great post.

overall I agree that there is no grand conspiracy to get Fordham. At the same time we've been on the receiving end of some PL decisions that have certainly damaged the PL brand in many Fordham fans' eyes. Imo those things can pretty much be lumped into a combination of coincidence, inept athletic mngt at FU and the impact of being an affiliate member in a league and thus, understandably not having the same importance/sway as a full league member.

our initial decision to leave the PL after our hoops scholarship classes graduated and we dropped to oblivion is a result of that poor athletic mgnt. The fact that HC does the same thing so soon thereafter and the league acquiesces is one of those coincidences, but a very damaging one to the PL brand (again, only speaking here of FU fans' eyes) since it begs the question of why they didn't allow them just 2 years earlier (do i have that timing right?) when they could have kept us. At a minimum you have a core group of FU fans who were appalled by the initial move to a non-scholarship league even more ammo to rip the PL since they turned around and offered them so soon thereafter. Maybe if there was more of a break between them telling us 'no' and telling HC 'yes' the impact would have been lessened.

the recent AI decision certainly falls into the category of us not having much influence as full members. the fact that G-town is also an affiliate and who the decision benefits the most is coincidental imo. If Gtown was with Fordham as the only schools negatively impacted by the change, I'm certain it still would have gone through. If it were one of the core 4, however, my bet is that it would not have. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but another decision that left a mark. To make things worse, we were supposedly told that scholarships would be implemented immediately following the AI and then they went back on that promise since making the move would have caused a problem with a core 4 member. FWIW, this is the one decision that did it for me personally since I feel it flies in the face of the stated goal or reason of the AI itself and also b/c one school was singled out in the negative and it happened to be mine. That said, I agree that there is no conspiracy at play, just a league decision that positively impacted most members that they felt they had to take.

so, again, i agree that there is no grand conspiracy, just this swirl of bad timing, bad coincidence, etc. at the same time I think it's perfectly understandable for a Fordham fan to feel no great love or affinity for the league,given this history.

my feeling is that as much as there is no grand conspiracy against us there also hasn't been much done to strengthen Fordham's ties with the PL in all the years we've been affiliates. That has created this situation where these individual decisions are allowed to pile up in the negative column without much offset. begs some questions to me:

*are there things the league has done for Fordham or other affiliates to strengthen their ties to the league that i'm not giving them credit for here?

*how do Gtown fans feel about the league? is it a "core-4 call the shots" feeling as well or do you think it's more equitable than that?

*do HC fans feel that they're an equal partner and it's really a core 5 group or do they think this is a BU/CU/LC/LU league?

*what could they league have done to strengthen ties with the affiliates better? Making the scholarship decision sooner (at least allowing all schools to do their own thing, ala hoops) is clearly one imo.

Well in a sense BU/CU/LU/LC are the core of the league. Holy Cross seems to be a constant malcontent with all things PL. Army, Navy, and American dont have or dont play football in the league so despite being full members are also a bit on the outside compared to the core 4. So the core 4 like the league, are committed to the league, and play all of the core league sports. I dont think they get preferential treatment, but it is any wonder these 4 schools are usually looked at as the guts of the PL?

[jimbo65]

Back when Fordham joined the PL, our then, and still, AD put much spin on the scholarship issue. The abscence of schollies in the PL environment was kind of glossed over and the desirability of the fball schedule ballyhooed by the AD. Once the schollie players on the teams graduated, the basketball, baseball etc. teams basically tanked.

Fordham never should have gone to the PL for all sports. If that was the requirement, then sayonara PL & try for fball in the Yankee Conference. IMO given the AI of the PL, FU was/is unable to realistically compete with the other members for a shrinking talent base. The move to schollies was correct as I believe a change of fball conferences is.

The next mistake was in retaining the AD once we went to the A 10. He was pro PL and opposed the move to the A 10. I do not blame him singularly for the mess that most of our teams are in today (interestingly enough) not fball but he simply is either unable/uinwilling or unempowered to head successful programs.

Right now the basketball program is a train wreck. The coach should already have been replaced. Backed by a 1.2 million contribution from an alum to advertise women's & men's basketball, we just completed an ad campaign to sell season tickets or tickets to our games, particularly those with with NOVA (IZOD) center and Dayton (MSG). If we continue as we have performed so far this season, these games will be routs.

On and on it goes. Very depressing for a fan.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well in a sense BU/CU/LU/LC are the core of the league. Holy Cross seems to be a constant malcontent with all things PL. Army, Navy, and American dont have or dont play football in the league so despite being full members are also a bit on the outside compared to the core 4. So the core 4 like the league, are committed to the league, and play all of the core league sports. I dont think they get preferential treatment, but it is any wonder these 4 schools are usually looked at as the guts of the PL?

Holy Cross has always been, and always will continue to be, a gigantic pole of influence on the PL. You forget that without Army, Navy, and American we don't have an autobid for BASKETBALL - and Holy Cross, Army and Navy are a HUGE sphere of influence everywhere but football. I'd also put American in this category, too.

[centraljerseycat]

If the PL is worried about losing Fordham and Georgetown and thus scrambling for schools to keep it's auto bid how about offering Gettysburg and Franklin & Marshall the chance to move up. Geographically makes sense and both have the academics over athletics philosophy embraced by the League. If memory serves didn't they belong to the same league as Lehigh/Lafayette/Bucknell in the 60's?

I'd pursue that before pursuing dreck like Monmouth or Marist.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fordham never should have gone to the PL for all sports. If that was the requirement, then sayonara PL & try for fball in the Yankee Conference. IMO given the AI of the PL, FU was/is unable to realistically compete with the other members for a shrinking talent base. The move to schollies was correct as I believe a change of fball conferences is.

This could be turned around - the leadership of the PL could have realized sooner that non-scholarship basketball was never going to fly - and could have adjusted to that reality sooner, keeping Fordham in a league where they were happier.

IMO, the AI is workable for you if you have merit-based aid.

[Fordham]

I did not read all of the pages in this tread, but do Fordham fans want the move to the CAA? I have to think they would be one of the worst teams in the CAA at least until they get to 63 scholarships, which may take years.

Even if the PL went scholly, I doubt Fordham sticks around. While they would be smart to move all of their teams to the PL, which is an excellent fit for the school academically, their home is in the A-10 now and for at least the near future.


it's really a mixed bag as far as Fordham fans' responses & hopes imo.

For some the PL will always be associated with the moment our athletic dept started its long slide and they'll never get over that. They would love the move.

Others are obviously enamored of the opportunity to play in the best FCS conference for football and would love it for that reason.

Others love the affiliation with the PL and frayed-Ivy relationship and want to stay.

I disagree with you that we won't stick around if the PL goes scholly. It's possible that you're correct however our #1 option when we announced we were going scholarship was to have the PL accept it and we would remain. I haven't been told that anything has changed since then.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the PL is worried about losing Fordham and Georgetown and thus scrambling for schools to keep it's auto bid how about offering Gettysburg and Franklin & Marshall the chance to move up. Geographically makes sense and both have the academics over athletics philosophy embraced by the League. If memory serves didn't they belong to the same league as Lehigh/Lafayette/Bucknell in the 60's?

I'd pursue that before pursuing dreck like Monmouth or Marist.

They did - at least they did with Gettysburg, not sure about F&M. But with the moratorium on moves to Division I in place - and the mandatory four-year waiting period - we're talking a stable membership in 2014 or 2015 at best. That's also without taking into account what happens if Fordham does indeed leave and/or if Georgetown moves to the PFL/NEC. (When does the moratorium end?)

I maintain that Marist would have given the PL a great all-sports member, would have upgraded basketball immensely, and as a bonus would have given the League a football team with a newly-refurbished stadium and that could grow into a decent program, should they desire. But they seemed to fail some ideological purity test (or "old boy network" test) and never seemed like as serious a candidate as they should have been, IMO.

[DFW HOYA]

the recent AI decision certainly falls into the category of us not having much influence as full members. the fact that G-town is also an affiliate and who the decision benefits the most is coincidental imo. If Gtown was with Fordham as the only schools negatively impacted by the change, I'm certain it still would have gone through. If it were one of the core 4, however, my bet is that it would not have. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but another decision that left a mark. To make things worse, we were supposedly told that scholarships would be implemented immediately following the AI and then they went back on that promise since making the move would have caused a problem with a core 4 member. FWIW, this is the one decision that did it for me personally since I feel it flies in the face of the stated goal or reason of the AI itself and also b/c one school was singled out in the negative and it happened to be mine. That said, I agree that there is no conspiracy at play, just a league decision that positively impacted most members that they felt they had to take.

Good points here, but Georgetown was not the reason for this change nor the immediate benefactor. The PL was suffering for a growing disparity vis a vis the Ivy AI whereby a Colgate or a Lehigh was not only losing kids to lower-tier PL AI's but to Ivy AI's as well, e.g., a prospect could get into Cornell but not to Lehigh.

A league-wide AI helps Georgetown in theory but not in practice. Sure, GU can now talk to that 1200 SAT prospect that was looking at Fordham, but for most kids a Fordham scholarship is still going to beat $100,000 in loans to play four years at Georgetown....then again, Colgate might just sign him anyway.



*how do Gtown fans feel about the league? is it a "core-4 call the shots" feeling as well or do you think it's more equitable than that?

Speaking just for me, yes, Leh/Laf, Colgate, and Bucknell call the shots, but it's their call to make. Associate members are guests, not owners.

However, the PL has (publicly) paid little attention to the increasing struggle of Georgetown football over this decade, because GU is not taken seriously by many of its own league members. The LV press can hardly disguise its contempt when covering Georgetown--one Express-Times writer this past week erroneously claimed Georgetown doesn't even have a football press guide or weekly media notes...and he didn't even cover the game.

But put another way, if Lehigh had suffered 10 straight losing seasons and had lost 22 of its last 23 league games, the league would certainly take an interest. If Bucknell was playing on the site of an old intramural field because they never finished/built a stadium, the league would take an interest. If Lafayette was now $3 million behind Colgate in budget support, would the league take an interest?

[Go...gate]

If the PL is worried about losing Fordham and Georgetown and thus scrambling for schools to keep it's auto bid how about offering Gettysburg and Franklin & Marshall the chance to move up. Geographically makes sense and both have the academics over athletics philosophy embraced by the League. If memory serves didn't they belong to the same league as Lehigh/Lafayette/Bucknell in the 60's?

I'd pursue that before pursuing dreck like Monmouth or Marist.

From your lips to God's ears, but the "dreck" comment is unnecessary.

[Fordham]

Well in a sense BU/CU/LU/LC are the core of the league. Holy Cross seems to be a constant malcontent with all things PL. Army, Navy, and American dont have or dont play football in the league so despite being full members are also a bit on the outside compared to the core 4. So the core 4 like the league, are committed to the league, and play all of the core league sports. I dont think they get preferential treatment, but it is any wonder these 4 schools are usually looked at as the guts of the PL?I'm sure they do get preferentail treatment and actually am completely fine with it. In fact, if I were a full sport member and one of the core 4 I'd be pretty ticked off if we received exactly the same treatment or had the same influence as affiliates.

It doesn't mean that they do (or should) go out of their way to alienate affiliates but it does mean that when a decision like the AI comes around, the core 4 will have much more sway than an affiliate. Again, no Fordham conspiracy at the PL but that also doesn't mean that there isn't fall out from the decision.

[jimbo65]

They did - at least they did with
I maintain that Marist would have given the PL a great all-sports member, would have upgraded basketball immensely, and as a bonus would have given the League a football team with a newly-refurbished stadium and that could grow into a decent program, should they desire. But they seemed to fail some ideological purity test (or "old boy network" test) and never seemed like as serious a candidate as they should have been, IMO.

I concur. Was told that our admission to the PL was not all that well received by some of the members but that our main backers were LaFayette & Army. At the time I asked if HC was a backer and got the reply, not really. Obviously I can't attest to this but the source was someone who was in a position to know.

[henfan]

Well, the Richmond/W&M thing doesn't make much sense - Richmond joined the Yankee in 1986, and W&M didn't join until 1993 - that's 7 years of Richmond being in one conference and W&M not being in it. Back then, conference affiliation wasn't that big of a deal since so many teams were independent and conferences were very fluid.

So nova did join a Yankee conference that was very Northern when they joined it - only UD and Richmond were the non-New England teams and again, nova had no real ties with Richmond and that's as much of a trip as it is to the Northern schools anyway. They joined because of Delaware (hard to underestimate that tie) and because they wanted to play full scholarship football (and I'm sure they even harbored ideas of I-AA football just being a potential first step to going back to I-A football where they were before they dropped the sport).

I think all of it may have been different if the Patriot League was a scholarship conference when it started, but then again, how many of those schools would've still wanted to form it if that was the case - the Bucknell's and Lehigh's and so on made the Patriot League because they didn't want to play that kind of football - throwing that wrench into the thinking is really changing history.

If memory serves me well, I-AA doled out one autobid to an independent back in those years. There was at least some advantage to being a I-AA independent, though scheduling was difficult.

Around '85, I recall their being serious discussions at UD, who was then a I-AA independent operating only with need-based aid, about joining a new football league of former rivals- Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell & Colgate. Of course, the school ended up not joining what would become the Patriot League and instead decided to hook up with the Yankee Conference in a league that would allow them the flexibility of eventually offering athletic-related aid. Of course, after a couple short years in the YankCon, the UD BOT approved athletic-related aid for FB. I don't recall how Richmond came into the fold but David Nelson, UD's former AD, and Chuck Boone, UR's former AD, were old pals. Aside from their long-standing rivalry with UD, 'Nova also had played UMass and UR several times through the '70s. At that point, they really hadn't played the core Patriot group, except for Holy Cross, for decades. The Yankee Conference just made the most sense for them.

As for GSU having any impact whatsoever on NU's decision to drop FB, that's just completely silly. Regardless of whether NU's FB squad would be making a trip to Atlanta once every 4 years for what was essentially a home-home deal, NU still faces the prospect of having to send their Olympic sport teams to Atlanta. I'd agree with GF that NU just didn't believe they could get a good bang for their buck with FB, given the amount of investment it would have taken to try to keep up with conference competition.

[Go...gate]

I concur. Was told that our admission to the PL was not all that well received by some of the members but that our main backers were LaFayette & Army. At the time I asked if HC was a backer and got the reply, not really. Obviously I can't attest to this but the source was someone who was in a position to know.

Just wanted to add that Colgate was with you as well at the time (1989). The tradition of Fordham football was of great value to the PL, which has some pretty fine old FB schools. Carl Ullrich of Army, who later became PL Exec Director, was definitely in your corner as well.

[Go...gate]

If memory serves me well, I-AA doled out one autobid to an independent back in those years. There was at least some advantage to being a I-AA independent, though scheduling was difficult.

Around '85, I recall their being serious discussions at UD, who was then a I-AA independent operating only with need-based aid, about joining a new football league of former rivals- Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell & Colgate. Of course, the school ended up not joining what would become the Patriot League and instead decided to hook up with the Yankee Conference in a league that would allow them the flexibility of eventually offering athletic-related aid. Of course, after a couple short years in the YankCon, the UD BOT approved athletic-related aid for FB. I don't recall how Richmond came into the fold but David Nelson, UD's former AD, and Chuck Boone, UR's former AD, were old pals.

As for GSU having any impact whatsoever on NU's decision to drop FB, that's just completely silly. Regardless of whether NU's FB squad would be making a trip to Atlanta once every 4 years for what was essentially a home-home deal, NU still faces the prospect of having to send their Olympic sport teams to Atlanta. I'd agree with GF that NU just didn't believe they could get a good bang for their buck with FB, given the amount of investment it would have taken to try to keep up with conference competition.

xnodx Yep. UD was definitely in the discussion.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'd pursue that before pursuing dreck like Monmouth or Marist.

xnonox

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'd pursue that before pursuing dreck like Monmouth or Marist.

xnonox


However, the PL has (publicly) paid little attention to the increasing struggle of Georgetown football over this decade, because GU is not taken seriously by many of its own league members. The LV press can hardly disguise its contempt when covering Georgetown--one Express-Times writer this past week erroneously claimed Georgetown doesn't even have a football press guide or weekly media notes...and he didn't even cover the game.

But put another way, if Lehigh had suffered 10 straight losing seasons and had lost 22 of its last 23 league games, the league would certainly take an interest. If Bucknell was playing on the site of an old intramural field because they never finished/built a stadium, the league would take an interest. If Lafayette was now $3 million behind Colgate in budget support, would the league take an interest?

I agree that expressions of concern would be more palpable were those institutions now shod in Georgetown's slippers. But DFW - what league-initiated solutions would be most helpful to the Hoyas? The Pennsylvania Three could (and I say this tongue in cheek) call a barn-raising to M Street the summer next in order finish MSF. Now that would get some ink in the Post, n'est pas? Symbolically, though, I think a barn-raising collaboration of some sort by league members would breed an abundance of good will. But I don't imagine that Fordham would maintain a charitable view of such an effort unless it were the beneficiary of a favorable scholarship decision.

The ignorance of the Easton Express-Times blogger was inexcusable. Unaccustomed as I am to expressing my thoughts in writing, I nevertheless beamed him a missive designed to cause him digestive turmoil for at least a week. Students at The Lafayette and The Brown and White typically do a better job, imho.