Are We Division-I Anymore?

[Pete's Weekly]

Not to sound negative, especially on a day of thanks in America, but this needs to be addressed.

http://petespoll.com/2002playoff/graphics/06ncaafootball.gif

http://petespoll.com/2002playoff/graphics/2008ncaaplayofflogo.jpg

With the exception of the colors, does anyone notice the difference in these logos? Maybe the wording?

I would also like to bring your attention to the title on the NCAA home page for our championship in 2008. Notice the title?

"31st ANNUAL FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP SUBDIVISION CHAMPIONSHIP"

Being a parent, I have learned that you should not say the words "I told you so" ...as it is not constructive ...rather, destructive.

To me, this far more important than the games this weekend. All of us associated with Pete's told everyone that we were being stripped of our Division-I status ...and we are. Yet, everyone including coaches from 3 teams in the play-off that were extremely vocal in support of the move (...is that not so JMU, App St., and especially Montana?) and blindly went on record about how wonderful this move was for the former I-AA ...and people on this board just posted how Pete's has odd opinions on things?

So, do we just take this, or do we try and do something about it? One more time:

IA = The state of Iowa. No one considers the IA teams anything but BCS or DI.

FBS = A columnist that could not spell BCS, a typo.

I-AA = Division I, followed by two letter "A's". Yes it means less than a single A, but we are. It still identifies us as DI.

FCS = I think they meant BCS? ...must have been a typo. IT MEANS NOTHING, as it is never used. Has anyone ever heard or read it being used in main-stream sports media?

So now what do you read and hear about our division? Make certain you listen this Saturday for it: "FCS ...the division formerly known as I-AA".

For those of you that are fans of the entertainer Prince; you should understand. It is time to demand the NCAA to return our Division-I status.

Sincerely,
fcsfootball.org ... the website formerly known as petespoll.com xnonono2x

[UD97HENS]

Personally it does not matter...we all know that we will never be invited to a Bowl game...so what's the problem. I could see an argument if maybe they would invite our "lil school" champions to the least prestigious bowl game. Let me say this..some of the "lil schools" can hang with some of the big dogs. It has been proven. App @ MICH, UD @ Navy (several times), UD @ MD 14-7???? They are supposed to dominate a "lil school" right?

[downbythebeach]

Yes what gives
I was a big fan of it being called the DI football Championship
It made it sound more important
Those bastards

[Edge316007]

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/champs_listing1.html

It doesn't list USC or those schools as ever having won a national championship in football, but it lists App and JMU, ect. as winning in football (though it only lists App for 2 for some reason).

[DFW HOYA]

Personally it does not matter...we all know that we will never be invited to a Bowl game...so what's the problem.

Well, why not? FBS issues notwithstanding, why couldn't a lower level bowl like the Emerald or Mobile or New Orleans be contracted to invite the two finalists to compete for the "title" at their bowl?

[Pete's Weekly]

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/champs_listing1.html

It doesn't list USC or those schools as ever having won a national championship in football, but it lists App and JMU, ect. as winning in football (though it only lists App for 2 for some reason).

Until just a couple of years ago, the NCAA did not recognize the authority of the BCS, because the organization did not include all IA conferences ...only the big-6 ...so the NCAA used the AP/coaches poll. This is why there have been multiple #1 teams at the IA level of football in recent years. Now the NCAA does accept the BCS champion, because they added a component for the non big-6 schools ...but the NCAA is not required to accept their decision. I-AA/FCS has always been controlled by the NCAA ...still is.

[Syntax Error]

Probably just a mistake by whomever typed it in. Both logos say Division I. All over their websites it says FCS (though they still have I-AA) in places.

"FCS = I think they meant BCS? ...must have been a typo. IT MEANS NOTHING, as it is never used. Has anyone ever heard or read it being used in main-stream sports media?" You are really blind or insulated because tons of media use it starting with ESPN all the way through the Sports Network. I agree that it is still a media education point and it's use is not universal.

BTW, just saw this... the AGS Poll is listed on the official NCAA site:
http://www.ncaa.com/sports/m-footbl/division_i_aa1.html

[UD97HENS]

Well, why not? FBS issues notwithstanding, why couldn't a lower level bowl like the Emerald or Mobile or New Orleans be contracted to invite the two finalists to compete for the "title" at their bowl?



No what i am saying is that you will never see any of the AA schools invited to "play" not host a bowl game. There are several schools that would be good for hosting a bowl game. I would just like to see the AA Champ invited to play in one of the less prestigious bowl games. Let's say The EagleBank Bowl...They automatically are pitting Army or Navy against the ACC's #9 team...why not the AA champ? Does a conference's #9 team REALLY deserve a bowl game?...To me it's a bunch of crap just like the BCS....

[Syntax Error]

Well, why not? FBS issues notwithstanding, why couldn't a lower level bowl like the Emerald or Mobile or New Orleans be contracted to invite the two finalists to compete for the "title" at their bowl?Don't those require an amount of FBS wins each year? FCS people could petition to have a postseason game like the Gridiron Classic or the Bayou Classic (I know that is a regular season game but it has corporate sponsors).

[Edge316007]

Until just a couple of years ago, the NCAA did not recognize the authority of the BCS, because the organization did not include all IA conferences ...only the big-6 ...so the NCAA used the AP/coaches poll. This is why there have been multiple #1 teams at the IA level of football in recent years. Now the NCAA does accept the BCS champion, because they added a component for the non big-6 schools ...but the NCAA is not required to accept their decision. I-AA/FCS has always been controlled by the NCAA ...still is.

Not sure I follow. They don't recognize Alabama or any of the pre-BCS champs either.

[ASUMountaineer]

The new logo looks fine. It says 2008 Football Championship Division I Chattanooga, Tennessee. It says Division I, it looks like they plan on using this logo for Division I, II, and III. At least, that's how I read it.

[Syntax Error]

Now the NCAA does accept the BCS champion, because they added a component for the non big-6 schools.I don't think this is correct. Please provide some links to where the NCAA "accepts" the BCS champion. Thanks.

[KiddBrewer]

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/champs_listing1.html

It doesn't list USC or those schools as ever having won a national championship in football, but it lists App and JMU, ect. as winning in football (though it only lists App for 2 for some reason).

it doesnt have app listed but for 2 championship because it says at the top of the page "through spring 2007".

[tingly]

NCAA accepts the BCS champion, but not as the NCAA champion. There are no NCAA football trophies in I-A/FBS trophy cases.

[Syntax Error]

NCAA accepts the BCS champion, but not as the NCAA champion. There are no NCAA football trophies in I-A/FBS trophy cases.I don't really know what he or you mean as accept, but to win an NCAA championship you can't be an FBS team.

[Syntax Error]

... I would also like to bring your attention to the title on the NCAA home page for our championship in 2008. Notice the title?

"31st ANNUAL FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP SUBDIVISION CHAMPIONSHIP"...Methinks that will be changed soon. xnodx

[UAalum72]

I don't really know what he or you mean as accept, but to win an NCAA championship you can't be an FBS team.

The NCAA's own site, www.NCAA.com lists FBS champions, consensus national champions, AP national champions, and retroactive poll champions and the selecting organizations going back to 1869. They are not ''NCAA Champions" but the NCAA recognizes their existence.

http://www.ncaa.com/history/football-fbs.html

[tingly]

I don't really know what he or you mean as accept, but to win an NCAA championship you can't be an FBS team.

yeah, "but not as the NCAA champion"

[TexasTerror]

Would be nice if FCSFootball.org actually recognized that we are no longer Division I-AA...

Humorous when the 'owner' of said site criticizes the NCAA and questions their motives when not properly doing things on his end...

[URMite]

Because of the lack of a solid relationship between the FBS and the NCAA, I'd love to see the terminology "NCAA Division I" and "Non-NCAA Division I"

[Edge316007]

it doesnt have app listed but for 2 championship because it says at the top of the page "through spring 2007".

Oh, yeah, duh. I don't know why I thought that said through Spring 2008.

[DFW HOYA]

I think this thread is an exercise in semantics. Outside of this board and a handful of athletic departments, virtually no one recognizes the I-AA playoff winner as the "national champion" the way that the BCS system does.

[DSUrocks07]

I think this thread is an exercise in semantics. Outside of this board and a handful of athletic departments, virtually no one recognizes the I-AA playoff winner as the "national champion" the way that the BCS system does.

It looks like the NCAA is wanting to assert itself in the college football picture. Until the FBS-level adopts a playoff system, you will continue to have an FCS champion and a BCS champion, the mythical "national title" will no longer be relevant.

[kirkblitz]

ask michigan

[Edge316007]

Better ask Michigan if they are division 1 anymore.

[I-AA Fan]

It seems to me that the topic is gone astray. The issue is that the NCAA changed the names to FBC and FCS, which was a mistake then, and this is proof. In the third year, and no one recognizes the division change, and we are less DI than ever before.

Who cares if IA has a play-off, this is I-AA? That is what I care about. As to ASU's win over Michigan, this is 2008. Besides if you think most of America is going to compare ASU and a storied program like Michigan on the same level ...time to wake up from the turkey induced coma.

Bottom line is that they are pushing the DI designation away from us, it is become quite clear. With IA, the natural is I-AA. However, no one uses FBS ...so there is no natural FCS to compliment. People use BCS, so I guess the natural is non-BCS.

As far as the NCAA accepting the BCS ..they do ...and have no choice but to do so. All teams in the BCS must first have membership in the NCAA. That is all there is to it. Even before the split into A and AA, there was never an NCAA DI champion, they accept the polls. Sure there is still the coaches poll, and the AP poll, now there is the BCS. However, the NCAA still recognizes it. It is considered NCAA football and the Bowl Championship Series.

[Edge316007]

But it's not considered an NCAA champion like all of the other NCAA sports. That's what I meant.

[Ronbo]

Well for BB, baseball, track, etc. We really are Div. I. But when you really take a hard look at Football we are something less. We don't have any schollie or attendance or facilities requirements. We canot get a home and home with the upper division. All the media refers FBS as Division I football.

Until FCS requires 63-65 schollies across the board for everyone and requires at minimum 10,000 average attendance we are really no more than a Division I -Divsion II - Division III highbred. As a Div. I - Division II - Division III highbred we cannot seriously be considered Divsion I in football.

[Syntax Error]

It seems to me that the topic is gone astray. The issue is that the NCAA changed the names to FBC and FCS, which was a mistake then, and this is proof. In the third year, and no one recognizes the division change, and we are less DI than ever before.Just because you don't and refuse to admit others do, doesn't change the fact that the majority of media use Division I FCS.
Bottom line is that they are pushing the DI designation away from us, it is become quite clear.No, it hasn't. Just the opposite. They promote FCS as the Division I Football Championship in every way.
no one uses FBS ...Except the majority of media...
As far as the NCAA accepting the BCS ..they do ...and have no choice but to do so. All teams in the BCS must first have membership in the NCAA. That is all there is to it.and that is ALL there is to it, their FBS teams play for the mythical BCS racket. The NCAA doesn't recognize the BCS champ any more than they do the National Black Football champ. The NCAA isn't involved at all in picking teams for the BCS racket, or anything else in how the racket is run. The NCAA is involved in governing postseason bowl games for their FBS teams, not BCS racket stuff.
Even before the split into A and AA, there was never an NCAA DI champion...Yes, before the split there was not NCAA champs. After the split there is. In 1978 the first NCAA D-I football champ was Florida A&M. That is why the NCAA FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP SUBDIVISION and BOWL SUBDIVISION are highly descriptive names and easy to explain and understand. One plays for the championship and the other plays for a bowl. Whenever someone says "Florida is a great D-I team," it is easy to tell them "you mean D-I bowl team." If they say "huh?" I'll say "you know that D-I has two divisions, one plays for the NCAA championship in the championship subdivision, and the other plays for a bowl in the bowl subdivision, and a BCS title which is not part of the NCAA." They understand immediately. What thwarts understanding are buffoons that only criticize the names in the media, want only FBS teams to be called D-I, refuse to use the better descriptive terms CHAMPIONSHIP and BOWL SUBDIVISION, and perpetuate the highly vague I-A and I-AA as a perfectly fine alternative. Luckily that group is shrinking more than ever.

xtwocentsx

[smallcollegefbfan]

Not to sound negative, especially on a day of thanks in America, but this needs to be addressed.

http://petespoll.com/2002playoff/graphics/06ncaafootball.gif

http://petespoll.com/2002playoff/graphics/2008ncaaplayofflogo.jpg

With the exception of the colors, does anyone notice the difference in these logos? Maybe the wording?

I would also like to bring your attention to the title on the NCAA home page for our championship in 2008. Notice the title?

"31st ANNUAL FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP SUBDIVISION CHAMPIONSHIP"

Being a parent, I have learned that you should not say the words "I told you so" ...as it is not constructive ...rather, destructive.

To me, this far more important than the games this weekend. All of us associated with Pete's told everyone that we were being stripped of our Division-I status ...and we are. Yet, everyone including coaches from 3 teams in the play-off that were extremely vocal in support of the move (...is that not so JMU, App St., and especially Montana?) and blindly went on record about how wonderful this move was for the former I-AA ...and people on this board just posted how Pete's has odd opinions on things?

So, do we just take this, or do we try and do something about it? One more time:

IA = The state of Iowa. No one considers the IA teams anything but BCS or DI.

FBS = A columnist that could not spell BCS, a typo.

I-AA = Division I, followed by two letter "A's". Yes it means less than a single A, but we are. It still identifies us as DI.

FCS = I think they meant BCS? ...must have been a typo. IT MEANS NOTHING, as it is never used. Has anyone ever heard or read it being used in main-stream sports media?

So now what do you read and hear about our division? Make certain you listen this Saturday for it: "FCS ...the division formerly known as I-AA".

For those of you that are fans of the entertainer Prince; you should understand. It is time to demand the NCAA to return our Division-I status.

Sincerely,
fcsfootball.org ... the website formerly known as petespoll.com xnonono2x

http://petespoll.com/petes2008nfldraft.shtml

Pete,

Utah State is not in the FCS.

[UAalum72]

Until FCS requires 63-65 schollies across the board for everyone and requires at minimum 10,000 average attendance we are really no more than a Division I -Divsion II - Division III highbred. As a Div. I - Division II - Division III highbred we cannot seriously be considered Divsion I in football.
So there's only about 35 "real" Division I teams in FCS and the other 80+ are 'hybrids' ?

[Ronbo]

No the Divsion is a hybrid (sorry about the spelling before). There's Div I, Div. II, and Div. III schools all mixed in together. There might even be a few NAIA's in there. xlolx xlolx xlolx

[I-AA Fan]

Whenever someone says "Florida is a great D-I team," it is easy to tell them "you mean D-I bowl team." If they say "huh?" I'll say "you know that D-I has two divisions, one plays for the NCAA championship in the championship subdivision, and the other plays for a bowl in the bowl subdivision, and a BCS title which is not part of the NCAA."
xtwocentsx

You just made my point. NO ONE say says Florida is a great DI team. NO ONE says ASU is a great FCS team. I do not want to correct people, I get no thrill out of it. I want the media to call it what people recognize it to be for decades now. We should not have to fight to be recognized. The DI association will always stay with any IA/FBS team. However, most never understood I-AA was a DI sub-class, and far far far less understand FCS. It has been almost three years now. It will never be any better in my lifetime.

As to the mythical championship; I am certain my Alma mater would not mind the the 10's of millions of those mythical dollars paid out to the winning mythical "BCS" champ and their conference. Also, every NCAA publication recognizes that winner, so the determining process is irrelevant.


If the NCAA insists on this idiotic classification, why do we as fans not try to associate FCS with the more recognized BCS? Give FBS a miss all together. I am not trying to agree or disagree with anyone posting, just agreeing it is an issue & hoping we can get some ideas. The reason I suggest this, is because it is becoming more clear that the BCS is looking to disassociate itself with the NCAA, which will hurt us even more.

[Syntax Error]

... it is becoming more clear that the BCS is looking to disassociate itself with the NCAA...You mean the NCAA is looking to disassociate itself from the BCS. The NCAA is the one who puts DIVISION I FOOTBALL CHAMPION on their trophy and every related publication. Guess what, no FBS can win it. That speaks volumes.

You do know that the NCAA is not going to change back to I-A and I-AA, don't you? No matter how much you moan about it. All the major media outlets use the new terms and soon enough so will all the moaners.

Here's something that should warm the cockles of your FBS-loving heart, I was listening to the Florida postgame show and they referred to The Citadel as D-II. Make you happy? Prove your point that these idiots don't get it right? Thank goodness the majors get it right and soon enough all the idiots will too.

Your alma mater wouldn't be Ohio State now would it? xcoffeex

[USDFAN_55]

Here's something that should warm the cockles of your FBS-loving heart, I was listening to the Florida postgame show and they referred to The Citadel as D-II.

That's really what the FCS is. A glorified D-II. What other NCAA sport has two D-I's? A subdivision? Let's not kid ourselves here. FCS is only considered D-I so that schools comply with the NCAA bylaw that all sports must be D-I to have a D-I program. There would be a lot less football programs if FCS was labeled what it truly is, D-II.

[Syntax Error]

That's really what the FCS is. A glorified D-II. What other NCAA sport has two D-I's? A subdivision? Let's not kid ourselves here. FCS is only considered D-I so that schools comply with the NCAA bylaw that all sports must be D-I to have a D-I program. There would be a lot less football programs if FCS was labeled what it truly is, D-II.Respectfully, it is obvious that you do not know the extent of difference between D-II and D-I. Ever wonder why the NCAA has a transition period when changing divisions? That's right, because the differences between the divisions are enormous.

As for having subdivisions, what other major NCAA sports do not have a tournament to determine the champion? Or pro sports for that matter? The need for subdivisions in D-I football occur because of the old bowl system and the money it brought/brings to those schools. When the NCAA wanted to have a tournament like they do for every other sport, the wealthy big schools refused (and still do) so they split it up so they could have a D-I championship in football.

I can understand your frustration because you are a fan of a non-scholarship D-I program and the difference between the Toreros and the best of FCS is so great.

[I-AA Fan]

You mean the NCAA is looking to disassociate itself from the BCS. The NCAA is the one who puts DIVISION I FOOTBALL CHAMPION on their trophy and every related publication. Guess what, no FBS can win it. That speaks volumes.

You do know that the NCAA is not going to change back to I-A and I-AA, don't you? No matter how much you moan about it. All the major media outlets use the new terms and soon enough so will all the moaners.

Here's something that should warm the cockles of your FBS-loving heart, I was listening to the Florida postgame show and they referred to The Citadel as D-II. Make you happy? Prove your point that these idiots don't get it right? Thank goodness the majors get it right and soon enough all the idiots will too.

Your alma mater wouldn't be Ohio State now would it? xcoffeex

As to my realization of the permanence of the name change? Thus my suggestion about associating with the BCS. I see you can type, but you must have trouble reading. As to using in all publications. Let's look at SI, ESPN, or any main-stream media outlet...they never use it, or even know what it is. The logos are on the first post in this thread ...they do not even use it anymore ...oh excuse me, I forgot my magnifying glass to see it. As to the DII slight, are you trying to infer that FBS means anything more? I guess it is better to say nothing about your division "FCS", than it is to use "I-AA" ...which does identify us as a DI club.

I honestly do not know what you are so negative about the comments for. The truth is the truth. I am trying to help promote the division, as are the initial comments, and others here as well. I have been following the thread, and do not want to see it collapse into another idiotic "we are better than you because we have a play-off" thread. As to my alma mater, my daughter is an Ohio State student, so purchase Buckeye tickets every year. I never go to the games myself, I travel to my Alma mater & watch their games. I went to a "DII" school in Ohio. Same as most all of the fans on this board.

[USDFAN_55]

Respectfully, it is obvious that you do not know the extent of difference between D-II and D-I. Ever wonder why the NCAA has a transition period when changing divisions? That's right, because the differences between the divisions are enormous.

As for having subdivisions, what other NCAA sports do not have a tournament to determine the champion. Or pro sports for that matter?

I can understand your frustration because you are a fan of a non-scholarship D-I program and the difference between the Toreros and the best of FCS is so great.

I'm trying hard to figure out how your response answers any of my questions. My point is FBS is the top division (D-I), FCS is the next top division which should not be labeled the same as the top division; therefore FCS really should be D-II. Sorry to bust your bubble, but two D-I's doesn't make any sense. Nice try though, answering my question with a questionxthumbsupx I'm not sure what a championship tournament has to do with division classification either?

I can understand your frustration because you're a fan of a scholarship FCS program and the difference between them and the best of the FBS is so greatxpeacex

[tingly]

I noticed Syntax missed your point. :) I was describing it to a basketball coach the other day. I said essentially, FBS is Division I, FCS is D-II, D-II is D-III and D-III is D-IV, but they have to call FCS D-I because all D-I schools have to have their football team be D-I. Semantics.

I'd have called them something like D-I Bowl and D-I Champion, or just call it all Division I and teams can be bowl-eligible or champion-eligible depending on what set of D-I rules they follow with NCAA upgrade permission and all that.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/champs_listing1.html

It doesn't list USC or those schools as ever having won a national championship in football, but it lists App and JMU, ect. as winning in football (though it only lists App for 2 for some reason).

Heard that argument 1000 times. But in making it, it puts confidence in the NCAA that frankly, I don't have.

[GaSouthern]

I always wanted PS and BS also for obvious reasons to poke fun at the DI-A schools for being BS.

[401ks]

I can understand your frustration because you are a fan of a non-scholarship D-I program and the difference between the Toreros and the best of FCS is so great.

Was that really necessary, SE? xsmhx

Truth be told, the "difference" between MOST of the FCS and the BEST of the FCS is also "great".

I would add that a LARGE part of whatever (little) standing the FCS has in the eyes of the general public comes not from the Woffords, Weber States, Austin Peays, and North Dakota States of the FCS, but from the NON-SCHOLARSHIP Harvards, Yales, Princetons, Dartmouths, (and yes, even) Georgetowns, Davidsons and Butlers of the FCS (because of their relatively high-profile basketball programs).

If one took the "non-scholarship" programs out of the FCS (and I would include the Patriot League on this list since they do no actually offer athletic scholarships, per se), in the consciousness of the general American public the FCS would be just a lower-division (DII?) full of Southwest Middle-of-Nowhere State Universities about which no one cares but their miniscule fan base.

And finally...

What is the old saying about a dwarf being a giant in the land of midgets?

I can understand the frustration of your average FCS fans because they are fans of a non-FBS program and the difference between their beloved program and the best of FBS is so great.

;)

[ValleyChamp]

Was that really necessary, SE? xsmhx

Truth be told, the "difference" between MOST of the FCS and the BEST of the FCS is also "great".

I would add that a LARGE part of whatever (little) standing the FCS has in the eyes of the general public comes not from the Woffords, Weber States, Austin Peays, and North Dakota States of the FCS, but from the NON-SCHOLARSHIP Harvards, Yales, Princetons, Dartmouths, (and yes, even) Georgetowns, Davidsons and Butlers of the FCS (because of their relatively high-profile basketball programs).

If one took the "non-scholarship" programs out of the FCS (and I would include the Patriot League on this list since they do no actually offer athletic scholarships, per se), in the consciousness of the general American public the FCS would be just a lower-division (DII?) full of Southwest Middle-of-Nowhere State Universities about which no one cares but their miniscule fan base.

And finally...

What is the old saying about a dwarf being a giant in the land of midgets?

I can understand the frustration of your average FCS fans because they are fans of a non-FBS program and the difference between their beloved program and the best of FBS is so great.

;)

Easy, little fella.xthumbsupx